Ancient Israeli Myths Deter Peace
Johnny Asia
By Robert Parry (A Special Report)
July 9, 2009
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/070809.html
The Diaspora Myth
In When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, Dr. Sand, an expert
on European history at the University of Tel Aviv, says the Jews were
never exiled en masse from the Holy Land and that the myth of the
Diaspora was used by Zionists over the past century to buttress their
argument for creating Israel.
Sand, a European Jew born in 1946 to Holocaust survivors in Austria,
argues that until the Zionist movement arose, Jews thought of
themselves as Jews because they shared a common religion, not because
they possessed a direct lineage to the ancient tribes of Israel.
However, at the turn of the 20th Century, Sand asserts, Zionist Jews
began assembling a national history to justify creation of a Jewish
state by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate
from their religion and that they had primogeniture over the territory
that had become known as Palestine.
The Zionists also invented the idea that Jews living in exile were
obligated to return to the Promised Land, a concept that had been
foreign to Judaism, Sand states.
If Sand�s thesis is correct � and it has faced no substantive rebuttal
� it would suggest that many of the Palestinian Arabs have a far more
substantial claim to the lands of Israel than do many European Jews
who arrived there asserting a God-given claim.
Indeed, Sand theorizes that many Jews, who remained in Judea after
Roman legions crushed the last uprising in 136 A.D., eventually
converted to Christianity or Islam, meaning that the Palestinians who
have been crowded into Gaza or concentrated in the West Bank might be
direct descendants of Jews from the Roman era.
In his book � and in an interview with Haaretz about his book � Sand
challenged the myth that the Romans relocated the Jews by force to
Europe. In the interview, he said:
"I started looking in research studies about the exile from the land -
a constitutive event in Jewish history, almost like the Holocaust. But
to my astonishment I discovered that it has no literature. The reason
is that no one exiled the people of the country.
�The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even
if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport
entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the
20th Century. From this, in effect, the whole book was born: in the
realization that Judaic society was not dispersed and was not exiled."
The True Descendants
Asked if he was saying that the true descendants of the inhabitants of
the Kingdom of Judah are the Palestinians, Sand responded:
"No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years. But
the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient
Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its
descendents.
�The first Zionists, up until the Arab Revolt [1936-1939], knew that
there had been no exiling, and that the Palestinians were descended
from the inhabitants of the land. They knew that farmers don't leave
until they are expelled.
�Even Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, the second president of the State of Israel,
wrote in 1929 that, 'the vast majority of the peasant farmers do not
have their origins in the Arab conquerors, but rather, before then, in
the Jewish farmers who were numerous and a majority in the building of
the land.'"
Criticism of Sand�s book has focused mostly on his credentials as an
expert on European history, not ancient Middle Eastern history, a
point that Sand readily acknowledges.
One critic, Israel Bartal, dean of humanities at the Hebrew
University, attacked Sand�s credentials, but disagreed mostly over
Sand�s assertion that the Diaspora story was created as an intentional
myth by Zionists seeking to fabricate a direct genealogical connection
between many of the world�s Jews and Israel.
�Although the myth of an exile from the Jewish homeland (Palestine)
does exist in popular Israeli culture, it is negligible in serious
Jewish historical discussions,� Bartal wrote in the newspaper Haaretz.
�Important groups in the Jewish national movement expressed
reservations regarding this myth or denied it completely.�
In other words, Bartal is not so much disputing Sand�s historical
claims about the Diaspora or the origins of Eastern European Jews, as
he is contesting Sand�s notion that Zionists concocted a false history
for a cynical political purpose.
But there can be no doubt that the story of the Diaspora has played a
key role in the founding of Israel and that the appeal of this
powerful narrative has helped generate sympathy around the world,
especially in the United States.
"After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained
faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray
and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their
political freedom," reads the preamble to the Israeli Declaration of
Independence.
As recently as Israeli�s bombardment of Gaza in January 2009, the myth
of the Diaspora was used to justify the slaughter of some 1,400
Palestinians dead, including many children and other non-combatants.
When the Israeli government investigated alleged war crimes by its
army, Israeli troops testified that extremist Rabbis had proclaimed
the invasion a holy war.
The troops said the Rabbis brought them booklets and articles
declaring: �We are the Jewish people. We came to this land by a
miracle. God brought us back to this land, and now we need to fight to
expel the non-Jews who are interfering with our conquest of this holy
land.�
Today, with the emergence of a new Likud-led government in Israel, the
Diaspora myth and Moses legends are intruding again on the prospects
for finally achieving peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Prime Minister Netanyahu has insisted on a new precondition for talks
� that the Palestinians must agree to a �public, binding and
unequivocal� recognition that Israel is �the nation state of the
Jewish people,� not simply the nation state of the people of Israel.
Netanyahu is making this demand although Arabs make up about 20
percent of Israel�s population.
This appears to be another case of ancient bloody myths contributing
to a modern bloody reality.
Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for
the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Neck Deep: The
Disastrous Presidency of George W. Bush, was written with two of his
sons, Sam and Nat, and can be ordered at neckdeepbook.com.
josephl...@msn.com
fla...@verizon.net
So he should stop spreading them.
Susan
> On Jul 8, 10:10�pm, Johnny Asia <engram52...@mypacks.net> wrote:
[flush]
dsharavi
> Ancient Israeli Myths Deter Peace
> By Robert Parry (A Special Report)
> July 9, 2009
> http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/070809.html
> The Diaspora Myth
>
> In When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, Dr. Sand, an expert
> on European history at the University of Tel Aviv,
Sand's areas of expertise are French intellectual history and Cinema.
>says the Jews were
> never exiled en masse from the Holy Land and that the myth of the
> Diaspora was used by Zionists over the past century to buttress their
> argument for creating Israel.
Sand must have a convincing reason for the existence of the
influential Jewish community of Babylon. Or does he assert that it was
invented by 19th century Zionists?
> However, at the turn of the 20th Century, Sand asserts, Zionist Jews
> began assembling a national history to justify creation of a Jewish
> state by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate
> from their religion and that they had primogeniture over the territory
> that had become known as Palestine.
That concept was invented well before the turn of the 20th century,
and not by Jews. See Immanuel Kant's comments on the "Palestinians
living amongst us." He was not referring to Arabs.
> The Zionists also invented the idea that Jews living in exile were
> obligated to return to the Promised Land, a concept that had been
> foreign to Judaism, Sand states.
Sand apparently knows as much about Zionists and Zionism as he does
about Jewish liturgy.
> If Sand’s thesis is correct –
It isn't.
>and it has faced no substantive rebuttal –
It has, but when wisdom cries out in the street, scoffers prefer their
scoffing and fools hate knowledge.
>it would suggest that many of the Palestinian Arabs have a far more
> substantial claim to the lands of Israel than do many European Jews
> who arrived there asserting a God-given claim.
And what do they base it on? Why, the fact that they are descended
from ancient Israelites, and therefore that gives them primogeniture
over the Jewish territory which the Romans renamed Palestine.
> Indeed, Sand theorizes that many Jews, who remained in Judea after
> Roman legions crushed the last uprising in 136 A.D., eventually
> converted to Christianity or Islam, meaning that the Palestinians who
> have been crowded into Gaza or concentrated in the West Bank might >be direct descendants of Jews from the Roman era.
And OF COURSE they kept their bloodlines pure, and NEVER intermingled
them with subsequent invaders such as Byzantines, Arabs, Seljuks,
Mameluks, European Crusaders, Egyptians, the various ethnicities which
comprised the Ottoman Empire, and never, never allowed themselves to
be driven out during the Khedive's invasion, occupation, and ethnic
cleansing, and transferral of thousands of Egyptians in the 19th
century.
Better make sure everybody knows this latest fantazia, because there
appear to be some PalArabs who still claim that they're descended from
the Philistine, or the Canaanites, and the Palestinian National
Charter still claims that they're all Arabs, and an indivisible part
of the Arab Nation.
> In his book – and in an interview with Haaretz about his book – Sand
> challenged the myth that the Romans relocated the Jews by force to
> Europe.
This is a straw man argument, at best. Sand should have stuck to
lecturing on Cinema.
> "No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years. But
> the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient
> Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its
> descendents.
And why is that, one wonders.
Deborah
Larry
ec9b-4876-bcd...@d32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
>> In his book - and in an interview with Haaretz about his book - Sand
>> challenged the myth that the Romans relocated the Jews by force to
>> Europe. In the interview, he said:
>>
>> "I started looking in research studies about the exile from the land -
>> a constitutive event in Jewish history, almost like the Holocaust. But
>> to my astonishment I discovered that it has no literature. The reason
>> is that no one exiled the people of the country.
>
Aren't the white skinned Jews from Eastern Europe actually Khazarians from
the Russian Steppes?
Notice how mention of Khazarians always gets turned around like this:
http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
--
-----
Larry
Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the entrails
of the last cleric.
dsharavi
> Aren't the white skinned Jews from Eastern Europe actually Khazarians from
> the Russian Steppes?
No.
> Notice how mention of Khazarians always gets turned around like this:http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
Turned around like what, with facts?
Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely
disproven the Khazar origin theory for the majority of Ashkenazi.
A 1999 study by Hammer et al., published in the Proceedings of the
United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes
of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite,
and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic
locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in
different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish
populations were not significantly different from one another at the
genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal
gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the
Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral
population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained
relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and
after the Diaspora."[46] According to Nicholas Wade "The results
accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like
those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from
other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval
Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."[47]
A 2005 study by Nebel et al., based on Y chromosome polymorphic
markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other
Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in
Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#DNA_Evidence
Deborah
drahcir
> "josephloeger...@msn.com" <josephloeger...@msn.com> wrote in news:205997fb-
> ec9b-4876-bcdf-288499366...@d32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> In his book - and in an interview with Haaretz about his book - Sand
> >> challenged the myth that the Romans relocated the Jews by force to
> >> Europe. In the interview, he said:
>
> >> "I started looking in research studies about the exile from the land -
> >> a constitutive event in Jewish history, almost like the Holocaust. But
> >> to my astonishment I discovered that it has no literature. The reason
> >> is that no one exiled the people of the country.
>
> Aren't the white skinned Jews from Eastern Europe actually Khazarians from
> the Russian Steppes?
It's hard to know whether someone who asks such a question is just a
plain ignoramus or an antisemitic one.
>
> Notice how mention of Khazarians always gets turned around like this:http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
Guess that settles that...
>
> --
> -----
> Larry
>
> Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the entrails
> of the last cleric.
Ignoramuses can be a drag, too.
Zulu
'The Origin of Palestinians and their Genetic Relatedness with other
Mediterranean Populations',
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, Nagah Elaiwa, Carlos Silvera,Ahmed Rostom,
Juan Moscoso, Eduardo Gómez-Casado, Luis Allende, Pilar Varela, and
Jorge Martínez-Laso
ABSTRACT:
The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been
studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and
haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by
using neighbor-joining
dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are
genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations,
including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians and
Iranians.
Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians
came from the ancient Canaanites, who
extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian and Anatolian peoples
in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-
Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic,
differences. The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and
Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the
continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have
occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly
contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean
populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle
East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.
Human Immunology 62, 889-900 (2001).
ã American Society for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics, 2001.
Published by Elsevier Science Inc.
http://minilien.com/?6yMaqdKGc4
http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf
dsharavi
On Jul 9, 6:48 am, Zulu <z...@volcanomail.com> wrote:
> 'The Origin of Palestinians and their Genetic Relatedness with other
> Mediterranean Populations',
> Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, Nagah Elaiwa, Carlos Silvera,Ahmed Rostom,
> Juan Moscoso, Eduardo Gómez-Casado, Luis Allende, Pilar Varela, and
> Jorge Martínez-Laso
> ABSTRACT:
> The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been
> studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and
> haplotypes.
Arnaiz-Villena's research was internationally reported following the
publication of a paper on the genetic history of Jews and
Palestinians, in the journal Human Immunology. This became
controversial because of its assertions about the origins of the
Palestine/Israeli conflict. Following strong criticism, it was
withdrawn from the journal and deleted from the scientific archive.
The comments about Arab-Israeli conflicts were described as "extreme
political writing", which included claims that Palestinians lived in
"concentration camps". Arnaiz-Villena was removed from the journal's
editorial board.
Arnaiz-Villena and his collaborator Jorge Alonso-Garcia claim to have
used Basque to decipher many of the ancient languages of the
Mediterranean and Middle East which are known to be unrelated to
Basque, including Egyptian, Hittite, Sumerian, Hurrian, Ugaritic,
Akkadian/Babylonian, Elamite, and Phoenician, all of which they claim
have been misidentified and mistranslated by the world's linguists and
epigraphers for a century. Arnaiz-Villena's Egyptian translations, for
example, include the cartouche of the bilingual Rosseta Stone in which
Champollion identified the name of Ptolemy, which in his version does
not include that name, meaning that it is actually Arnaiz-Villena who
deserves credit for deciphering the hieroglyphs; the Code of Hammurabi
contains "no hint of laws" but is a Basque funerial text; and his
purported Basque material proper includes the Iruña-Veleia graffiti,
which had been identified as modern forgeries by an official report
made by a multidisciplinary team of 26 reputed experts half a year
before his decipherment was published. They also claim to be able to
read poorly attested languages such as Etruscan, Iberian, Tartessian,
Guanche, and Minoan, which no-one else has been able to decipher with
any certainty.
Few scholars have found it worth their time to refute Arnaiz-Villena's
work. De Hoz says that it "lacks the slightest value and is contrary
not just to the scientific method but to common sense", and that "it
is an unmitigated disaster which in principle should not be reviewed"
Deborah
Abbie Hoffman
Compounding modern fairy tales fabricated by antichrist Ersatz jews
that always lie about everything, on the top of ancient fairy tales
fabricated by antichrist Ersatz jews that always lied about everything,
doesn't make any of it true. It's all madoffing, jewing, gypstering,
shystering, counterfeit, treacherous, diabolical, demonic, criminal,
Godless, antichrist bullshit. All bullshit from start to finish. All
their books. All their histories. All of it. Everything. Bullshit.
Lies compounded on the top of lies. Like their "holocaust"(tm).
Ersatz jews always lie about everything. They have never in the
history of this infernal world divorced from God ever spoken truly
about anything. All of their so called "histories" are cover to cover
lies fabricated by filthy Godless antichrist criminal Ersatz jews.
False jews. Liar jews. Antichrist jews. The Ersatz jews are filthy
degenerate inbred swine. That is their race. The race born of the
devil and the synagogue of Satan. Ersatz jews are filthy lying pigs.
Genocidal mass murderers. Atheist jewsurers. Narcissistic, greedy,
arrogant, self pitying, congenital liars, thieves and murderers.
Any time an Ersatz jew opens its mouth it is only filth that comes
out of it. Because the Ersatz jews are filthy on the inside even more
that they are filthy on the outside. Filthy to their rotten cores.
The Juwes are
the men that
Will not
be Blamed
for nothing
-W.W. Gull
Kenneth McVay OBC
Abbie Hoffman <nob...@nymu.eu> wrote:
>
>On Wed, 08 Jul 2009, Johnny Asia <engra...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>> Ancient Israeli Myths Deter Peace
>> snip
>
>
> Compounding modern fairy tales fabricated by antichrist Ersatz jews
>that always lie about everything, on the top of ancient fairy tales
>fabricated by antichrist Ersatz jews that always lied about everything,
>doesn't make any of it true. It's all madoffing, jewing, gypstering,
So you're lies are because you're Jewish?
Interesting.
--
Who is your choice for the Dumbest celebrity? Kurt Knoll
holds a commanding lead at 23.1%, Dan Quayle is second at
14.6% & GW Bush third at 22.3%. VOTE NOW, VOTE OFTEN!
Vote Now: http://squidoo.com/think-you-are-stupid-eh
Larry
224943...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
> most Jewish
> populations were not significantly different from one another at the
> genetic level...
Somebody fudged the tests to get the results Jews wanted. Hell, you can
easily SEE the difference between Jews from different locations! Some are
dark-skinned Middle Easterners, others are caucasians from
Russia/Ukraine/Europe. How blatantly false it is to say these all have the
same genetics. It simply cannot be true, no matter how much revisionism
the Zionists pigs want them to be.
Getting the truth on this issue is probably impossible....
--
TheZ
nonsense claim
"Larry" <no...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9C4390B1291...@74.209.131.13...
JMD Morgan
By Robert Parry (A Special Report)
July 9, 2009
The rationale for formally designating Israel a Jewish state � as Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu now demands � rests on three
religious-political pillars: God�s purported covenant with Moses
instructing the ancient Israelites to conquer the land, the injustice of
the Roman-era Diaspora that supposedly removed them centuries later, and
the brutal persecution of European Jews in the Holocaust.
Yet, two of these pillars � Moses conveying God�s covenant to the
Israelites and the Roman Diaspora � appear based on almost no historical
reality, the stuff of legend and possibly even lies that crumble under
any serious scrutiny.
Normally, such ancient stories might be regarded as harmless tales that
some people treasure as part of their Judeo-Christian faiths, except
that Netanyahu�s new demand means that these myths now threaten peace in
the Middle East and conceivably could push the modern world into more
bloody warfare. Therefore, they must be given fresh examination.
Ironically, it was the Nazis� drive to exterminate European Jews during
World War II that is the one pillar founded on historical reality,
although some extreme enemies of Israel insist on making Holocaust
denial a central feature of their attacks.
Also, some adversaries, like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have
argued that it is unfair to make the Palestinians pay for a crime
against humanity committed by the Germans.
Yet, the Holocaust is not in historical dispute. That horrible reality �
an industrial-style extermination campaign that also targeted Gypsies,
homosexuals and Communists � was proven after the World War II from a
multitude of Nazi records, photographs and eyewitness accounts.
It is the tales of Moses from the Torah (or the first five books of the
Old Testament) and the legend of the Roman Diaspora that lack serious
historical underpinnings.
The Diaspora myth has been addressed in a new book by Israeli historian
Shlomo Sand, When and How Was the Jewish People Invented? It debunks the
notion that Rome removed the Jewish people en masse from the Holy Land
in the First and Second Centuries A.D. and scattered them across Europe.
Instead, most East European Jews appear to be descendents of converts,
principally from the Kingdom of the Khazars in eastern Russia, who
embraced Judaism in the Eighth Century, A.D. The descendants of the
Khazars then were driven from their native lands by invasions and �
through migration � created the Jewish populations of Eastern Europe.
Thus, Sand argues, many of today�s Israelis who emigrated from Europe
after World War II have little or no genealogical connection to the
land. According to Sand, a bitter irony of Israel�s founding may be that
it displaced Palestinians who could be the actual descendants of the
ancient Israelites, who stayed on the land and eventually converted to
Islam.
Other descendants of those ancient Israelites maintained Judaism as a
strong presence in the Middle East, both in Palestine and in successful
communities from Egypt to Iraq and Iran. These Jews faced few religious
pressures until after Israel was founded in 1948, when this new European
intrusion into Islamic lands was viewed in the context of the Crusades a
millennium ago. [More on Sand�s book below.]
The Moses Myth
Yet, while questioning the Diaspora myth is a sensitive topic for many
Israelis and their supporters around the world, it is even touchier to
challenge the Biblical claim that God, through Moses, struck a covenant
with the Israelites to conquer the land and possess it for all time.
Because the Torah is sacred to Jews � and to many Christians as the
revealed word of God in the Old Testament � it has been dangerous to
examine the factual history behind these texts in an objective manner.
For centuries, the Catholic Church and some Protestant faiths persecuted
anyone who questioned Moses�s supposed authorship of the chapters even
though their internal contradictions and the description of Moses�s
death at the end of Deuteronomy made that long-held belief untenable.
As Richard Elliott Friedman recounts in his 1987 book, Who Wrote the
Bible?, �Religious opposition to the new investigation (into the
traditional belief about Moses�s authorship) persisted during the 19th
Century� and didn�t collapse until 1943 when Pope Pius XII �encouraged
scholars to pursue knowledge about the biblical writers.�
Modern Biblical scholars now agree that Moses was not the author of the
Torah, that the stories were passed down orally from the 14th Century
B.C. and were put into writing centuries later. But the legendary
figure of Moses has remained almost beyond criticism, not only for many
Jews but for people of the Christian and Islamic faiths. (He is treated
as a holy messenger in the Koran.)
Many Americans think of Moses as the angry but righteous leader as
portrayed by Charlton Heston in the 1956 epic �The Ten Commandments,� or
they think of their feel-good Bible studies as children. Yet, many
archaeologists believe that the Moses stories were largely made up.
�This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the
Land of Israel: the Isrealites were never in Egypt, did not wander in
the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not
pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel,� summed up Professor Ze�ev
Herzog, director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University.
�The many Egyptian documents that we have make no mention of the
Israelites� presence in Egypt and are also silent about the events of
the Exodus.�
However, other scholars believe that some Israelites did emigrate to
Egypt, suffered in servitude there, and may have been led back to Canaan
by Moses or a Moses-like leader.
Nevertheless, because of the powerful influence of the Torah (and the
Old Testament), the biblical Moses carries extraordinary religious and
historical weight, inspiring Israeli settlers to claim Palestinian lands
as rightfully theirs and rallying fundamentalist Christians across the
American heartland to embrace whatever actions the Israelis take.
A Tyrannical Leader
But who was Moses?
According to biblical lore, Moses was a Hebrew child raised in the royal
Egyptian court before breaking with his protectors and remaking himself
into a leader of Hebrew slaves. He guided them out of Egypt and
transformed them, as they wandered for decades in the Sinai desert, into
an Israelite nation, giving them specific laws and detailed rules of
behavior.
During that time, Moses announced a covenant with God that granted the
Israelites permanent dominion over the lands across the Jordan River,
and he instructed them to destroy other peoples inhabiting those
territories. Moses, however, never returned to the Promised Land, dying
near the Jordan, before the conquest began.
Though Moses is regarded by many as a great law giver (the Ten
Commandants) and as a major force in the formation of monotheism (the
belief in one God), the text of the Torah present him as a cruel and
tyrannical leader.
From a modern perspective, Moses might be viewed as a �dictator who
killed his own people� when they disobeyed him and an advocate of
genocide against outsiders. His claims that he spoke with the Lord sound
more like a megalomaniac who believed he could scare a primitive people
into following his orders by claiming they were edicts from God.
Indeed, over the centuries, many tyrants have used religion (especially
monotheism) to justify repression and to eliminate enemies and rivals.
The religious wars in Europe during the Middle Ages are a classic
example of how kings and popes wrapped their personal power in the
bloody cloak of religion, torturing and burning alive �heretics� who
wouldn�t submit.
The biblical Moses appears to have been such a tyrant, though the Sunday
school version often played down this extreme side of his personality.
In Exodus, for instance, there is the famous story of the Israelites
creating a visible idol of their God in the form of a golden calf while
Moses is absent on Mount Sinai. When Moses returns with stone tablets
conveying laws of behavior, he is furious and smashes the tablets.
According to the Torah, Moses then grinds up the golden calf, mixes it
with water and makes the Israelites drink it. Then, Moses recruits what
we would today call a �death squad.�
The Torah reads: �Moses stood at the gate of the camp and said, �Whoever
is for the Lord, to me!� And the Levites gathered round him. And he said
to them, �Thus said the Lord God of Israel, �Put every man his sword on
his thigh, and cross over and back from gate to gate in the camp, and
each man kill his brother and each man his fellow and each man his kin��
And the Levites did according to the word of Moses, and about three
thousand men of the people fell on that day.�
In other words, Moses ordered a massacre of Israelites whom he regarded
as his enemies, people who had challenged his authority in the form of
dancing around the golden calf.
Robert Alter in his 2004 book, The Five Books of Moses, comments on
Moses�s instruction: �each man kill his brother,� etc.
�This chilling command enjoins the sword-wielding Levites to show no
mercy to friend or kin,� Alter wrote. �The figure of three thousand dead
in the next verse indicates that this is not an indiscriminate massacre
but an assault on the ringleaders � or perhaps, those guilty of the most
egregious excesses � among the orgiasts.�
Higher Authority
It also seemed that whenever Moses was setting some rule, whether as
grand as the Ten Commandants or as minor as personal hygiene, he always
invoked the Almighty.
In Leviticus, for instance, God supposedly takes a direct interest in
dictating how women should be treated after childbirth, with one set of
rules for giving birth to sons and another for daughters.
According to this account, the Lord tell Moses, �Speak to the
Israelites, saying �Should a woman quicken with seed and bear a male,
she shall be unclean seven days, as in the days of her menstrual
unwellness she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day, the flesh of his
foreskin shall be circumcised. And thirty days and three she shall stay
in her blood purity. She shall touch no consecrated thing nor shall she
come into the sanctuary till the days of her purity are completed.
�And if she bears a female, she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her
menstruation, and sixty days and six she shall stay over her blood
purity. And when the days of her purity are completed, whether for a son
or for a daughter, she shall bring a yearling lamb for a burnt offering
and a young pigeon or a turtledove for an offense offering to the
entrance of the Tent of Meeting, to the priest. And he shall bring it
forward before the Lord and atone for her, and she shall be clean from
the flowing of her blood.�
If you think that�s a lot of unnecessary detail, you should read the
Lord�s instructions via Moses for how to assess whether a boil is
leprosy or not.
In Deuteronomy, Moses explains to the Israelites about their right to
reclaim the land of their forefathers, again speaking for God:
�And the Lord your God shall bring you to the land that your fathers
took hold of, and you shall take hold of it, and He shall do well with
you and make you more multitudinous than your fathers.�
Moses also makes clear that God expected the conquest to include
massacres and genocide. Again speaking for the Lord, Moses said:
�I will bring back vengeance on My foes and My enemies I will requite. I
will make My shafts drunk with blood, and My sword will eat up flesh
from the blood of the fallen and captive, from the flesh of the
long-haired foe.�
In his final blessing to the Israelites, Moses makes the genocide
message even more explicit, painfully so. He called on them to �smash
the loins of [the Lord�s] foes, that His enemies rise no more. � Your
enemies cower before you and you on their backs will tread.�
So, more than 3,000 years later, should a modern state like Israel be
demanding that Palestinians recognize Israel as an explicitly Jewish
state, as Netanyahu now says?
The Diaspora Myth
The second pillar � the Roman Diaspora � also comes from ancient times
though not as far back as the stories of Moses. If anything, however,
the Diaspora has less of a historical basis.
In When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, Dr. Sand, an expert on
European history at the University of Tel Aviv, says the Jews were never
exiled en masse from the Holy Land and that the myth of the Diaspora was
used by Zionists over the past century to buttress their argument for
creating Israel.
Sand, a European Jew born in 1946 to Holocaust survivors in Austria,
argues that until the Zionist movement arose, Jews thought of themselves
as Jews because they shared a common religion, not because they
possessed a direct lineage to the ancient tribes of Israel.
However, at the turn of the 20th Century, Sand asserts, Zionist Jews
began assembling a national history to justify creation of a Jewish
state by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate from
their religion and that they had primogeniture over the territory that
had become known as Palestine.
The Zionists also invented the idea that Jews living in exile were
obligated to return to the Promised Land, a concept that had been
foreign to Judaism, Sand states.
If Sand�s thesis is correct � and it has faced no substantive rebuttal �
it would suggest that many of the Palestinian Arabs have a far more
substantial claim to the lands of Israel than do many European Jews who
arrived there asserting a God-given claim.
Indeed, Sand theorizes that many Jews, who remained in Judea after Roman
legions crushed the last uprising in 136 A.D., eventually converted to
Christianity or Islam, meaning that the Palestinians who have been
crowded into Gaza or concentrated in the West Bank might be direct
descendants of Jews from the Roman era.
In his book � and in an interview with Haaretz about his book � Sand
challenged the myth that the Romans relocated the Jews by force to
Europe. In the interview, he said:
"I started looking in research studies about the exile from the land - a
constitutive event in Jewish history, almost like the Holocaust. But to
my astonishment I discovered that it has no literature. The reason is
that no one exiled the people of the country.
�The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even
if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport
entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th
Century. From this, in effect, the whole book was born: in the
realization that Judaic society was not dispersed and was not exiled."
The True Descendants
Asked if he was saying that the true descendants of the inhabitants of
the Kingdom of Judah are the Palestinians, Sand responded:
"No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years. But the
chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient Judaic
people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its descendents.
�The first Zionists, up until the Arab Revolt [1936-1939], knew that
there had been no exiling, and that the Palestinians were descended from
the inhabitants of the land. They knew that farmers don't leave until
they are expelled.
�Even Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, the second president of the State of Israel,
wrote in 1929 that, 'the vast majority of the peasant farmers do not
have their origins in the Arab conquerors, but rather, before then, in
the Jewish farmers who were numerous and a majority in the building of
the land.'"
Criticism of Sand�s book has focused mostly on his credentials as an
expert on European history, not ancient Middle Eastern history, a point
that Sand readily acknowledges.
One critic, Israel Bartal, dean of humanities at the Hebrew University,
attacked Sand�s credentials, but disagreed mostly over Sand�s assertion
that the Diaspora story was created as an intentional myth by Zionists
seeking to fabricate a direct genealogical connection between many of
the world�s Jews and Israel.
�Although the myth of an exile from the Jewish homeland (Palestine) does
exist in popular Israeli culture, it is negligible in serious Jewish
historical discussions,� Bartal wrote in the newspaper Haaretz.
�Important groups in the Jewish national movement expressed reservations
regarding this myth or denied it completely.�
In other words, Bartal is not so much disputing Sand�s historical claims
about the Diaspora or the origins of Eastern European Jews, as he is
contesting Sand�s notion that Zionists concocted a false history for a
cynical political purpose.
But there can be no doubt that the story of the Diaspora has played a
key role in the founding of Israel and that the appeal of this powerful
narrative has helped generate sympathy around the world, especially in
the United States.
"After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained
faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and
hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their
political freedom," reads the preamble to the Israeli Declaration of
Independence.
As recently as Israeli�s bombardment of Gaza in January 2009, the myth
of the Diaspora was used to justify the slaughter of some 1,400
Palestinians dead, including many children and other non-combatants.
When the Israeli government investigated alleged war crimes by its army,
Israeli troops testified that extremist Rabbis had proclaimed the
invasion a holy war.
The troops said the Rabbis brought them booklets and articles declaring:
�We are the Jewish people. We came to this land by a miracle. God
brought us back to this land, and now we need to fight to expel the
non-Jews who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land.�
Today, with the emergence of a new Likud-led government in Israel, the
Diaspora myth and Moses legends are intruding again on the prospects for
finally achieving peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Prime Minister Netanyahu has insisted on a new precondition for talks �
that the Palestinians must agree to a �public, binding and unequivocal�
recognition that Israel is �the nation state of the Jewish people,� not
simply the nation state of the people of Israel. Netanyahu is making
this demand although Arabs make up about 20 percent of Israel�s population.
This appears to be another case of ancient bloody myths contributing to
a modern bloody reality.
Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the
Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Neck Deep: The
Disastrous Presidency of George W. Bush, was written with two of his
sons, Sam and Nat, and can be ordered at neckdeepbook.com. His two
previous books, Secrecy & Privilege: The Rise of the Bush Dynasty from
Watergate to Iraq and Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press &
'Project Truth' are also available there. Or go to Amazon.com.
dsharavi
>The Diaspora Myth
>In When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, Dr. Sand, an expert
>on European history at the University of Tel Aviv,
Sand's areas of expertise are French intellectual history and Cinema.
>says the Jews were
>never exiled en masse from the Holy Land and that the myth of the
>Diaspora was used by Zionists over the past century to buttress their
>argument for creating Israel.
Sand must have a convincing reason for the existence of the
influential Jewish community of Babylon. Or does he assert that it
was
invented by 19th century Zionists?
>However, at the turn of the 20th Century, Sand asserts, Zionist Jews
>began assembling a national history to justify creation of a Jewish
>state by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate
>from their religion and that they had primogeniture over the territory
>that had become known as Palestine.
That concept was invented well before the turn of the 20th century,
and not by Jews. See Immanuel Kant's comments on the "Palestinians
living amongst us." He was not referring to Arabs.
>The Zionists also invented the idea that Jews living in exile were
>obligated to return to the Promised Land, a concept that had been
>foreign to Judaism, Sand states.
Sand apparently knows as much about Zionists and Zionism as he does
about Jewish liturgy.
>If Sand’s thesis is correct –
It isn't.
>and it has faced no substantive rebuttal –
It has, but when wisdom cries out in the street, scoffers prefer
their
scoffing and fools hate knowledge.
>it would suggest that many of the Palestinian Arabs have a far more
>substantial claim to the lands of Israel than do many European Jews
>who arrived there asserting a God-given claim.
And what do they base it on? Why, the fact that they are descended
from ancient Israelites, and therefore that gives them
"primogeniture"
over the Jewish territory which the Romans renamed
Palestine.
>Indeed, Sand theorizes that many Jews, who remained in Judea after
>Roman legions crushed the last uprising in 136 A.D., eventually
>converted to Christianity or Islam, meaning that the Palestinians who
>have been crowded into Gaza or concentrated in the West Bank might
>be direct descendants of Jews from the Roman era.
And OF COURSE they kept their bloodlines pure, and NEVER intermingled
them with subsequent invaders such as Byzantines, Arabs, Seljuks,
Mameluks, European Crusaders, Egyptians, the various ethnicities
which
comprised the Ottoman Empire, and never, never allowed
themselves to
be driven out during the Khedive's invasion,
occupation, and ethnic
cleansing, and transferral of thousands of
Egyptians in the 19th
century.
Sand's "theorizing" isn't even that.
Better make sure everybody knows this latest fantazia, because there
appear to be some PalArabs who still claim that they're descended
from
the Philistine, or the Canaanites, and the Palestinian National
Charter still claims that they're all Arabs, and an indivisible part
of the Arab Nation.
>In his book – and in an interview with Haaretz about his book – Sand
>challenged the myth that the Romans relocated the Jews by force to
>Europe.
What "myth"? This is a straw man argument, at best. Sand should have
stuck to
lecturing on Cinema.
>"No population remains pure over a period of thousands of years. But
>the chances that the Palestinians are descendants of the ancient
>Judaic people are much greater than the chances that you or I are its
>descendents.
And why would that be, one wonders.
>“The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even
>if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport
>entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th
>Century.
Who is Sand trying to kid? The Assyrians and neo-Babylonians relocated
entire peoples without trains or trucks or 20th century logistics; the
means for doing so cretainly existed before the 20th century. The
Khedive "ethnically cleansed" entire areas of Ottoman Palestine in the
1830s, and repopulated them with Egyptians.
>One critic, Israel Bartal, dean of humanities at the Hebrew University,
>attacked Sand’s credentials,
He didn't.
>but disagreed mostly over Sand’s assertion
>that the Diaspora story was created as an intentional myth by Zionists
>seeking to fabricate a direct genealogical connection between many of
>the world’s Jews and Israel.
Actually, Prof Bartel proved that Sand lied on several points.
>But there can be no doubt that the story of the Diaspora has played a
>key role in the founding of Israel and that the appeal of this powerful
>narrative has helped generate sympathy around the world, especially in
>the United States.
Pah. The Galut was a reality long before the US came into existence.
[flush remaining drek]
Deborah
mirjam
> >“The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even
> >if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport
> >entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th
> >Century.
And what about the Huns .....Atilla etc.... The Vikings ,, Not to
mention that the Romans
that you claim had no trains etc to deport entire population ... had
no problem
to moove entire ARMIES ..with all their heavy luggage ..
..to Israal , To Egypt and to England etc.... As did the Greek Before
them etc etc .... ,
Good Point Deborah ,,, >>
> Pah. The Galut was a reality long before the US came into existence.
I wondered , about Sand` book ,,,, on several points , who does he
think the Inquizion was perscuting in Spain ???
mirjam
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-Jul-2009, drahcir <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Aren't the white skinned Jews from Eastern Europe actually Khazarians
> > from
> > the Russian Steppes?
>
> It's hard to know whether someone who asks such a question is just a
> plain ignoramus or an antisemitic one.
> >
> > Notice how mention of Khazarians always gets turned around like
> > this:http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
>
> Guess that settles that...
Yes, he's both. Anyone who pretends that the *truth*
is "turning around" anything is a total moron - and it's
not like there's a bigot out there who isn't a total moron.
Susan
drahcir
dsharavi
On Jul 10, 4:55 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Arnaiz-Villena
Yep, that's the clown.
Deborah
dsharavi
> > >if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport
> > >entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th
> > >Century.
>
> ??????????
My sentiments, exactly. The Assyrians, the neo-Babylonians, and the
Achaemenids certainly had the capability of deporting entire
populations; in fact, it was state policy regarding conquered
peoples.
> And what about the Huns .....Atilla etc.... The Vikings ,, Not to
> mention that the Romans
> that you claim had no trains etc to deport entire population ... had
> no problem
> to moove entire ARMIES ..with all their heavy luggage ..
> ..to Israal , To Egypt and to England etc.... As did the Greek Before
> them etc etc .... ,
The Romans had the "logistics" to second entire legions from Gaul and
Britannia to put down the Jewish revolt (e.g., the IX Hispania).
> Good Point Deborah ,,,
>> Pah. The Galut was a reality long before the US came into existence.
> I wondered , about Sand` book ,,,, on several points , who does he
> think the Inquizion was perscuting in Spain ???
Um, Palestinian Arabs?
I wonder who he's trying to kid. (A rhetorical question.) What neither
Sand nor his predecessor, the novelist Koestler, seem to have noticed,
and that was the large Jewish populations in western Europe in late
Roman times -- which were still around in later medieval times, as
noted by medieval authors.
Deborah
> mirjam
Todd Tomorrow
"Kenneth McVay OBC" <kmc...@shell.vex.net> wrote in message
news:ZN2dncJW6cN9sMvX...@vex.net...
> --
> Who is your choice for the Dumbest celebrity? Kurt Knoll
> holds a commanding lead at 23.1%, Dan Quayle is second at
> 14.6% & GW Bush third at 22.3%. VOTE NOW, VOTE OFTEN!
> Vote Now: http://squidoo.com/think-you-are-stupid-eh
Irony palpable. Quayle and Bush are not celebrities; they are
politicians. As far as dumbest public figure, the honor would
have to go to Joe the Lazy Ho Biden. The stupid bastard couldn't
write/speak a paragraph on his own.
Johnny Asia
>
> > Notice how mention of Khazarians always gets turned around like this:http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
>
> Turned around like what, with facts?
>
> Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely
> disproven the Khazar origin theory for the majority of Ashkenazi.
The Ashkenazi Jews ... Genetic tests seem to indicate some ancestry
from the regions known today as Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Iran, and
Iraq. Mediterranean Fever, for example, is found among some Ashkenazi
Jews as well as Armenians and Anatolian Turks.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples such
as Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q
(typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European).
The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European
Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle
Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim
(Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world
is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J
and E.
Subclades J2a and J2a1b1 are found mostly in Greece, Anatolia (Part of
Turkey), and southern Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia
Anatolia - a geographic region of Western Asia, comprising most of the
modern Republic of Turkey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)
Haplogroup J is found in greatest concentration in Southwest Asia.
Outside of these regions, haplogroup J has a moderate presence in
Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Greece, and
Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of
its subclade J2-M172. Haplogroup J is also found in North Africa and
the Horn of Africa, particularly in the form of its subclade J1-M267.
Subclades J2a and J2a1b1 are found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and
southern Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E_(Y-DNA)
Haplogroup E
Semino et al. (2004) proposed that haplogroup E arose in East Africa
based on the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area
today).[4]
E1b1b, which is at once the most common Y haplogroup among Ethiopians,
Somalis, Eritreans and North African Berbers and Arabs, is the third
most common haplogroup in Europe.[10] It is also common in the Near
East, from where it spread into the Balkans and the rest of Europe.
Johnny Asia
> > Notice how mention of Khazarians always gets turned around like this:http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
>
> Turned around like what, with facts?
>
> Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely
> disproven the Khazar origin theory for the majority of Ashkenazi.
>
# About half of Ashkenazic Levites possess Eastern European non-
Israelite haplotypes belonging to the R1a1 haplogroup. This is almost
never found among Sephardic Levites, and may have been introduced into
the Ashkenazic Levite lines by Slavs or Khazars who converted to
Judaism.
# The Cohen Modal Haplotype is not exclusively found among Jews, but
rather is also found among Kurds, Armenians, Italians, Palestinian
Arabs, and a few other peoples.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-cohen-levite.html
Johnny Asia
reliably found to be R1a, at about 40-50 %, which is the most common
Hg in Slavs and Turkic peoples.
R1a is NOT EVEN FOUND natively in the middle east populations, ..
.
and it is the common standard marker for east europeans and turkic
populations like the Khazars. Most all of the R1a MEN still very
likely may have had one or more grandfather`s or G-Grandfather`s (just
not their direct paternal Grandfather) who was likely a haplogroup J
or E3b which are associated with semitic populations.
(Interestingly, NO E3b is found in either surname group)
Half of all dutch jews are R1b, 50%, which is the same Hg as the
western-euro gentiles they live amongst and once again is not found
natively amongst Levatine populations. A lot of other jews are Hg G
(common among Iranian Aryans- remember the enslavement of israel to
the persians) or even K which is not european, but is not by
definition levantine Hg either, so basically you find what you would
expect from a group that although insular, has travelled and lived
amongst most of the other populations of the near east, asia, and
europe,as well as north africa for millenia.
They to varying degrees share the ethnicity, voluntarily or not, with
most of those populations, and the Khazars and/or Slavs are the only
explainable source for the predominance of R1a in the eastern european
jews Y-Dna. This is not going to be welcome news to a lot of the
jewish population, because the R1a DNA / Khazars, means those
Individuals, though practicing jews for many hundreds of years, did
NOT have direct-line paternal ancestors who originated in the holy
land or what is modern Israel.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080910153634AAN2jue
drahcir
> On Jul 9, 5:35 am, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Notice how mention of Khazarians always gets turned around like this:http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
>
> > Turned around like what, with facts?
>
> > Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely
> > disproven the Khazar origin theory for the majority of Ashkenazi.
>
> The Ashkenazi Jews ... Genetic tests seem to indicate some ancestry
> from the regions known today as Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Iran, and
> Iraq. Mediterranean Fever, for example, is found among some Ashkenazi
> Jews as well as Armenians and Anatolian Turks.
>
> http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
Johnny, in addition to being an asshole, is a liar. The above
paragraph did NOT come from khazaria.com, although the below does.
Since Johnny is obviously too fucking stupid to understand his own
post (it completely corroborates what Deborah said), allow me to
emphasize the important thought from the below in the hopes that even
a moron like Johnny might comprehend:
If you go to Khazaria.com, you'll see that this asshole reversed the
below two quoted paragraphs. Of course, the section starts "The main
ethnic element...." and then proceeds "Ashkenazim also descend, in a
smaller way..." His puny brain thought that if it reversed the
paragraphs, somehow that would refute Deborah.
The main gist of the below is:
"The main ethnic element of...most...modern Jewish populations of the
world is Israelite." I will explain further for Johnny the moron: that
means that Jews are NOT Khazarian, they are Israelite, although they
have some genetic mixture of Slavs and Khazars. One can't expect 100%
genetic purity in a population that was displaced for 2000 years. You
are SUCH an imbecile, it's scary.
drahcir
Johnny, this "science" stuff is obviously way, way, WAY beyond you -
the above makes NO POINT. You just don't understand that.
drahcir
LOL! The moron got this from Yahoo answers!!!
Gary Renzetti
>>> �The Romans did not exile peoples and they could not have done so even
>>> if they had wanted to. They did not have trains and trucks to deport
>>> entire populations. That kind of logistics did not exist until the 20th
>>> Century.
> ??????????
> And what about the Huns .....Atilla etc.... The Vikings ,, Not to
> mention that the Romans
> that you claim had no trains etc to deport entire population ... had
> no problem
> to moove entire ARMIES ..with all their heavy luggage ..
> ..to Israal , To Egypt and to England etc.... As did the Greek Before
> them etc etc .... ,
>
the Mid-East were anywhere *close* to "entire populations". The
logistical difference between moving a few thousand troops and moving a
few *million* civilians are immense.
Are you smoking an illegal substance?
Johnny Asia
is the work of a scientist who teaches at Duke University and has been
personally involved in much Jewish genetic research.
Like virtually every academic I have ever consulted on the subject,”
David Goldstein writes, “I was initially quite dismissive of
Koestler’s identification of the Khazars [with] Ashkenazi Jewry.” Yet,
he continues, “I am no longer so sure. The Khazar connection seems no
more farfetched than the spectacular continuity of the Cohen line.
Who is right? Either could be, for the latest evidence is ambiguous.
It consists of two studies. One, “Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Founder
Effect in Ashkenazi Jews,” was published in 2004 in the European
Journal of Human Genetics by a small team from the Hebrew University
of Jerusalem. The other was the work of a larger, American-Israeli-
British group to which Goldstein belonged; its report, “Multiple
Origins of Ashkenazi Levites: Y-Chromosome Evidence for Both Near
Eastern and European Ancestries,” appeared in the American Journal of
Human Genetics in 2003. Both studies discuss a mutation, widely found
in Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine, that occurs in a Y-
chromosome classification known as Haplogroup R, at a DNA site labeled
M117.
The Hebrew University study states:
Recent genetic studies . . . showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more
closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to
their host populations in Europe. However, Ashkenazim have an elevated
frequency of R-M117, the dominant Y-chromosome haplogroup in Eastern
Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow [into the Ashkenazi
population]. In the present study of 495 Y chromosomes of Ashkenazim,
57 (11.5 percent) were found to belong to R-M117.
http://www.dnacommunities.com/cgi-bin/forums/gforum.cgi?post=540%3Bguest=370250
drahcir
genetic stuff. In your stupidity, you posted something that actually
corroborated the post of Deborah that you wanted to refute, in spite
of doing your best to deceive the reader by including something
falsely cited and reversing the paragraph order in that which was
properly cited. I'd tell you to go practice, but really, what's the
point?
Johnny Asia
> hey asshole, let's be honest - you don't have a clue about this
> genetic stuff. In your stupidity, you posted something that actually
> corroborated the post of Deborah that you wanted to refute >>
She said the Khazar theory was "largely disproven".
The study showed there is Khazar DNA in AshkeNazis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
One marker, however, present in more than 50% of Eastern European
(Ashkenazi) Jewish Levites points to a common male ancestor or very
few male ancestors within the last 2000 years for many Levites of the
Ashkenazi community. This common ancestor belonged to the haplogroup
R1a1 which is typical of Eastern Europeans, rather than the haplogroup
J of the Cohen modal haplotype, and most likely lived at the time of
the Ashkenazi settlement in Eastern Europe.[4][45][46]
One source of early confusion was a widespread popular notion that
only Cohens or only Jews could have the Cohen Modal Haplotype. It is
now clear that this is not the case. The Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH),
whilst notably frequent amongst Cohens, is also far from unusual in
the general populations of haplogroups J1 and J2 with no particular
link to the Cohen ancestry. These haplogroups occur widely throughout
the Middle East and beyond [8],[9].
drahcir
> On Jul 12, 11:21 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > hey asshole, let's be honest - you don't have a clue about this
> > genetic stuff. In your stupidity, you posted something that actually
> > corroborated the post of Deborah that you wanted to refute >>
>
> She said the Khazar theory was "largely disproven".
Yeah, now go look up what "disproven" means like a good moron, and
maybe you'll realize that when you make a post that says:
"The main ethnic element of...most...modern Jewish populations of the
world is Israelite."
you say "yes Deborah, you are correct. Modern Jews are not mainly
Khazar in origin, but rather Israelite."
The funniest thing is, you don't understand one word that I'm saying.
You are stupid as a stone, "guitarist from the future".
>
> The study showed there is Khazar DNA in AshkeNazis
Ooh, look, the moron can barely wipe his own ass, but he knows how to
capitalize an "N". What a good moron you are! Of COURSE there is some
Khazar DNA in many Ashkenazim, you unbelievable imbecile. There's
Eastern European DNA in many Ashkenazim as well. SO WHAT? What can one
expect when a population has been displaced for 2000 years? That means
NOTHING. When Deborah says that the Khazar theory of Ashkenazi origin
has been disproven, it does NOT mean that there is ZERO Khazar DNA in
Ashkenazim. Sheesh, why do I bother? You are the moron that posted
something completely opposite to what you wanted - you are far too
stupid to understand what I am saying.
Ok, wait, let me try my best to explain to a cretin like you. Let's
say a family of Italians comes over to the US in 1625. They stay here
and multiply, and then in 2006 some members of the family have a DNA
test done. AND LO AND BEHOLD, there appears some native american DNA.
GADZOOKS!!. Now go tell the cretin Johnny Asia, and he will say "HA!
That proves that the family never came from Italy, it came from North
America!!" DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW, MORON, OR DO YOU NEED FURTHER
EXPLANATION?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
LOL! Johnny now knows he fucked up, and tries desperately, with Yahoo
answers and now wikipedia, to try to cast doubt ON THE VERY POST HE
MADE THAT SHOWED ASHKENAZIM TO BE MAINLY DESDCENDED FROM ISRAELITES!!!
WHAT A FOOL!!
The below is COMPLETELY irrelevant, Johnny. Poor Johnny, if he had a
brain, he could maybe figure out some way to undo what he's done, but,
then again, if he had a brain, he wouldn't have done it in the first
place. Tell me, johnny, just for fun, do you see the word "khazar"
anywhere in the below? Hmmm? If you do, get new glasses. If not,
please explain how the below can possibly be relevant to Deborah
saying the Khazar bullshit has been disproven. (THIS SHOULD BE FUN!).
I repeat, you don't have a CLUE about what you are posting. It's way
above your pinhead. Johnny, gotta tell ya, all morons are not
antisemites, but all antisemites are morons. That makes things easy -
AND FUN!!
Larry
ad2f-0d1...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:
> David B. Goldstein's Jacob's Legacy: A Genetic View of Jewish History,
> is the work of a scientist who teaches at Duke University and has been
> personally involved in much Jewish genetic research.
>
>
>
And EVERY study is done by Jews, for Jews, of Jews to make sure the results
are exactly what will benefit Jews the best, including any "rights" they
have to Palestinian lands on the Eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea.
If the Fox studies the hens in 24 henhouses, the studies will show that the
Fox owns all hens under the study and has the "rights" to do with the hens
as he pleases. After all, that's what the "Hen Study" plainly shows in its
scientific conclusions.
mirjam
esp after reading this unbelievable text about Dutch Jewery
Dutch Jewery was Mainly from Spain & Portugal , as they came to
Holland mainly in the 15th century fleeing the Spanish Inquisition`s
persecutions.
What you call Ashkenaz Jews joined only later .
78% of Dutch Jewery was Murdered in the Holocaust , Now adays there
are very few `Dutch Jews` , whose ancestors lived in Holland more than
a century or two , while Jews from all diasporas joined the local
`original` jews who lived there from some centuries ... thus it is
impossible to state such statements ,,,
Than i looked up your source ,,, you must be kidding , this isn`t a
source , this are people with opinions , nobody checked their level of
knowledge ,,,
>
> Half of all dutch jews are R1b, 50%, which is the same Hg as the
> western-euro gentiles they live amongst and once again is not found
> natively amongst Levatine populations. A lot of other jews are Hg G
> (common among Iranian Aryans- remember the enslavement of israel to
> the persians) or even K which is not european, but is not by
> definition levantine Hg either, so basically you find what you would
> expect from a group that although insular, has travelled and lived
> amongst most of the other populations of the near east, asia, and
> europe,as well as north africa for millenia.
dsharavi
>>>http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
>On Jul 9, 5:35 am, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>>Turned around like what, with facts?
>>Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely
>>disproven the Khazar origin theory for the majority of Ashkenazi.
On Jul 10, 12:08 pm, Johnny Asia <bardic26...@mypacks.net>wrote:
> The Ashkenazi Jews ... Genetic tests seem to indicate some ancestry
>from the regions known today as Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Iran, and
>Iraq. Mediterranean Fever, for example, is found among some Ashkenazi
>Jews as well as Armenians and Anatolian Turks.
Three obvious - and dishonest -- omissions made by Johnny Asia:
1) "The Ashkenazi Jews ARE ALSO THE DIRECT DESCENDANTS OF THE
ISRAELITES."
2) Following "Anatolian Turks. It is now asserted that many Ashkenazi
men who belong to the priestly caste (Kohenim) possess a "Kohen"
marker on the Y-chromosome. however, NOTE THAT THIS PROVIDES NO
EVIDENCE OF KHAZAR ANCESTRY."
3) The link wasn't given. It's easy to find:
Question 13.4: Who were the Khazars? Are Ashkenazi Jews descended from
the Khazars?
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/07-Jews-As-Nation/section-5.html
>http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
>
>Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples such
>as Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q
>(typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European).
Evidently Johnny not only fudged the order of this paragraph, he
failed to note that the preceding sentence reads:
>The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European
>Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle
>Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim
>(Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world
>is Israelite.
Same as the sentence Johnny omitted from the foregoing: "The Ashkenazi
Jews ARE ALSO THE DIRECT DESCENDANTS OF THE ISRAELITES."
>The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J
>and E.
This ends Johnny's snippets from Kevin Brooks' Khazaria site.
The quote Johnny tacked on, without reference, isn't found on it:
>Subclades J2a and J2a1b1 are found mostly in Greece, Anatolia (Part of
>Turkey), and southern Italy.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia
>Anatolia - a geographic region of Western Asia, comprising most of the
>modern Republic of Turkey.
If one finds it necessary to insert into one's quote an explanation of
what Anatolia is, then underscore it with a Wiki quote, as above, one
should expect one's contributions to the subject to be given the same
serious consideration as, say, a paper on advanced nuclear physics
delivered by Paris Hilton.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)
>Haplogroup J is found in greatest concentration in Southwest Asia.
>Outside of these regions, haplogroup J has a moderate presence in
>Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Greece, and
>Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of
>its subclade J2-M172. Haplogroup J is also found in North Africa and
>the Horn of Africa, particularly in the form of its subclade J1-M267.
>Subclades J2a and J2a1b1 are found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and
>southern Italy.
Alas, poor Johnny, he missed the implications.
Southwest Asia: Israel.
Italy, Greece, Albania: sites of the earliest Jewish communities (1stC
BCE/CE) in Europe.
North Africa: sites of the some of the earliest Jewish communities
(6thC BCE) outside Israel.
See the following, which Johnny, again dishonestly, omitted:
Haplogroup J1, defined by the 267 marker is most frequent in the
Arabian Peninsula Yemen(76%), Saudi (64%) [2], Qatar (58%)[3], and
Dagestan (56%)[4]. J1 is generally frequent amongst Arab Bedouins
(62%[5]. It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the
southern Levant, i.e. Palestinian Arabs (38.4%) [6], in Algeria (35%)
[7], Iraq (68%), Tunisia (31%)[8], Syria (30%), Lebanon (19%) [9],
Egypt (20%)[10], and the Sinai Peninsula. The frequency of Haplogroup
J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries with
mainly non-Arabic speaking countries, such as Turkey (9%) and Iran
(9.5%).
No Jews in that lot. Just Arabs -- like Palestinian Arabs.
Haplogroup J2 is found in the highest concentrations in the Fertile
Crescent and is found throughout the Mediterranean (including Southern
Europe and North Africa), the Balkan peninsula, the Caucasus, the
Iranian plateau and into Central Asia[12]. More specifically it is
found in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Israel,
Greece, Italy, the Balkans and the eastern coasts of the Iberian
Peninsula[13], and most frequently in Lebanese 30% (Wells et al.
2001), Iraqis 29.7% (Sanchez et al. 2005), Syrians 29%, Sephardic Jews
29%, Kurds 28.4%, Iranians 24%[14].
"....most frequently in Lebanese, Iraqis, Syrians, Sephardic Jews,
Kurds, Iranians."
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E_(Y-DNA)
>Haplogroup E
>Semino et al. (2004) proposed that haplogroup E arose in East Africa
>based on the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area
>today).[4]
>E1b1b, which is at once the most common Y haplogroup among Ethiopians,
>Somalis, Eritreans and North African Berbers and Arabs, is the third
>most common haplogroup in Europe.[10] It is also common in the Near
>East, from where it spread into the Balkans and the rest of Europe.
Johnny Asia just "proved" the Near East origin of European Jews. But,
like Paris Hilton and advanced physics, he doesn't get it.
Deborah
dsharavi
>>>http://www.zionism-israel.com/issues/khazars.html
>On Jul 9, 5:35 am, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>>Turned around like what, with facts?
>>Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely
>>disproven the Khazar origin theory for the majority of Ashkenazi.
On Jul 10, 12:10 pm, Johnny Asia <bardic26...@mypacks.net>wrote:
Johnny must be feeling a bit desperate, since this is the second
response he's made to the same post.
># About half of Ashkenazic Levites possess Eastern European non-
>Israelite haplotypes belonging to the R1a1 haplogroup. This is almost
>never found among Sephardic Levites, and may have been introduced into
>the Ashkenazic Levite lines by Slavs or Khazars who converted to
>Judaism.
The source for this alleged quote is given as
>http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-cohen-levite.html.
It is not found on this site. But the following is:
"The Y chromosomes of Ashkenazic and Sephardic levites show no
particular simularity. ... There is, however, a strong genetic
signature common to 52% of Ashkenazic levites. It is a set of genetic
variations belonging to a branch of the world Y chromosome tree known
as R1a1. To judge by the amount of variation on these levite R1a1
chromosomes, the original ancestor seems to have entered the Jewish
community about 1,000 years ago, roughly the time when Jewish
settlement in northwest Europe began, in other words at the founding
of the Ashkenazic community. The geneticists who discovered the R1a1
signature among the levites, a team that included Skorecki, Hammer and
Goldstein, note that outside the Jewish community the R1a1 chromosome
is relatively common in the region north of Georgia, in the Caucasus,
that was once occupied by the Khazar kingdom. The Khazars were a
Turkic tribe whose king converted to Judaism in the eighth or ninth
century AD. The geneticists propose that one or more of the Khazar
converts may have become levites, accounting for the R1a1 signature
among today's Ashkenazic levites. But Shaye Cohen, an expert on Jewish
religious history, believes it unlikely that converts would become
levites, let alone founding members of the levite community in Europe.
The Khazar connection is ''all hypothesis'' in his view."
Nicholas Wade. Before the Dawn: Recovering the Lost History of Our
Ancestors (The Penguin Press, 2006), page 250
># The Cohen Modal Haplotype is not exclusively found among Jews, but
>rather is also found among Kurds, Armenians, Italians, Palestinian
>Arabs, and a few other peoples.
This alleged quote is also not found at the site given as:
>http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-cohen-levite.html
But the following is:
"Of the Indian datasets, only the Bene Israel carry the Cohen Modal
Haplotype..."
Tudor Parfitt. "Place, Priestly Status and Purity: The Impact of
Genetic Research on an Indian Jewish Community." Developing World
Bioethics 3:2 (December 2003): 178-185.
"In a second study, more DNA samples were gathered and the selection
of Y chromosome markers was expanded. It was discovered that a
particular array of six chromosomal markers were in 92 percent Cohens
tested. This collection of markers came to be known as the Cohen Modal
Haplotype (CMH) and is the standard genetic signature of the Jewish
priestly family... This second study solidified the theory of the
common ancestry of Cohens."
Erik Hakimian. "Jewish Genes." Megillah (July 2000).
See: Studies of Cohens and Levites
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-cohen-levite.html
Deborah
dsharavi
>The most common haplogroup in east european origin jews is regularly,
>reliably found to be R1a, at about 40-50 %, which is the most common
>Hg in Slavs and Turkic peoples.
Johnny Asia must be feeling very, very desperate, as this is his third
response to the same post.
>R1a is NOT EVEN FOUND natively in the middle east populations, ..
>and it is the common standard marker for east europeans and turkic
>populations like the Khazars. Most all of the R1a MEN still very
>likely may have had one or more grandfather`s or G-Grandfather`s (just
>not their direct paternal Grandfather) who was likely a haplogroup J
>or E3b which are associated with semitic populations.
Talk about desperation - the source for the foregoing is one post
from.....
>http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080910153634AAN2jue
Other posts from the same site read:
Resolved Question
Is it true that Shepardic Jews are the real Jews and Akenazi Jews are
actually descended from Kozar converts?
I read in a book that Akenazi Jews discriminate against Shepardic Jews
in Israel, even though Shepardics are actually decended from the
original Israelites and the Akenazis are supposedly decended from
another race that converted to Judaism! The Sheparics even have formed
a group called Shas to protest their treatment (again, according to
the book.) What's the truth here?
1) Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Once you convert to Judaism then you are a real Jew.
The rest of your question is typically antisemitic drivel
2) It is strange, all these answers. Levites are not, have never been
"Jews" if the Jews claim that the descendants of Levi are the as the
descendants of Judah, they are quite mistaken. If the Jews do not want
to admit that most europeon jews were Kazars, How do they handle the
Edomite element?
The truth is that they are spelled Sephardic or more usually Sephardi,
Ashkenazi and Khazars. The notion of Ashkenazi Jews being descendants
of the Khazar converts has been comprehensively debunked and you can
find answers on here and info elsewhere. I don't think there's any
relationship between this falsehood and the situation between
Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews in Israel. As in many countries, there are
tensions between different groups and those who are better educated
and wealthier are sometimes liable to behave as if they think they're
better than those who are ill-educated and poor. This is true among
some Israelis. Some (not all) Sephardi Jews came from much poorer
countries where education was much harder to get. But you certainly
can't make the claim of this book, whatever it was (why don't you
reference it?).
3) It is a myth. No truth behind it. Many think because Ashkenazi Jews
come from Europe and that Judaism started in modern day Iraq that
Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews are "true Jews" mainly because of their
ethnicity. If there is truth behind it, then it will be news to me.
But lets not all forget, Ruth was a convert(the mother of king David).
Most of the Jewish people come from a convert. Converts are considered
on a higher status than born Jews because of their choice to be Jewish
than those frum from birth. I kind of find that true because many have
to explaination that anyone can choose to be Jewish. But thats not
true. Those born Jewish never loose their Jewishness so you can choose
not to observe but you will always be a Yehudi.
4) This old myth about the Khazars is absurd, Yes, a group of Khazars
converted to Judaism. They thus became Jewish. No, Ashkenasi Jews are
NOT all their descendents: that would be irrational, there are
millions of Ashkenasi Jews!
Sephardi and Ashkenasi and Mizrachi Jews are ALL EQUALLY JEWISH.
There are sometimes minor differences in how the groups observe
festivals and customs, but we all follow the Torah, we all share the
same core tenets as our beliefs, and we are all equally part of the
Jewish family.
5) This has come up so often it's now laughable. The whole
"Khazar issue" has been thoroughly debunked over and over and over.
It's really a joke.
Guess what? Recent DNA studies on the Y-chromosome of Ashkenazi
Jews showed they had an "extremely close affinity [with] non-Jewish
Middle Eastern populations", indicating "a common Middle Eastern
origin", as does the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the
current Ashkenazi population. So although Khazars might have been
absorbed into the Jewish population it is unlikely that they formed a
large percentage of the ancestors of modern Ashkenazim.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/…
And, finally: WHO CARES??????
The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape
of the Middle East, Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha
P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, Ariella Oppenheim (The American Journal
of Human Genetics, Volume 69, number 5. pp. 1095–112).
6) What's with all the question about "real" and "true" Jews today?
The Khazars were a mighty people in the seventh, eighth and ninth
centuries. Some of their Nobility definitely converted to Judaism, but
both Christian and Islamic sources also claim that they converted a
number of Khazars. This was at the turn of the last millennium, and
people weren't real into accurate record keeping back then. It's
likely that some of the commoners among the Khazars did convert to
Judaism. However, unique genetic markers for Cohanim (the priestly
class of Jews) does not seem to bear out that there was a truly
significant change in the Jewish Gene Pool at that time. For those
Khazars who did convert, once they converted, that's it, they were
fully Jewish, and Jewish communities would have no reason to keep
separate records on them. The morphology from a purely Semitic looking
people into Eastern European looking people probably has as much to do
with rape and intermarriage as with the Khazars.
Re: Sephardi, you realize that many of them, from settling in
Spain, Italy, and eventually being chased to Turkey and other
Mediterranean areas, look more Latin and/or Greek than Semitic (the
supposed "true" way a Jew should look, I guess?). Again, the shift was
due to conversions of locals for intermarriage sake (I'm not trying to
say Jews didn't change faith as well to intermarry, just that it
likely was a two way traffic flow of genes) and rape.
You can check with Human Genome project and you find that while
there have been morphological changes in Jewish appearance since the
Romans dispersed us 2000 years ago, certain genetic markers remain
remarkably consistent along the Y chromosome, showing, by and large,
that Jews, while accepting converts, have remained largely "Jewish",
and are able to trace the lineages back to a small set of Paternal
ancestors from about 5000 years ago.
I don't know about internal politicals and prejudices in the
Country of Israel. I'm sure there are some, and I'm sure some people
are discriminatory. After all, no matter where you go, people are
people. But I doubt it's because one group or another claims to be
"true" Jews, while demeaning another group Judaism.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080910153634AAN2jue
Deborah
dsharavi
>>hey asshole, let's be honest - you don't have a clue about this
>>genetic stuff. In your stupidity, you posted something that actually
>>corroborated the post of Deborah that you wanted to refute >>
On Jul 12, 9:25 am, Johnny Asia <bardic26...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>She said the Khazar theory was "largely disproven".
This guy can't even keep his lies straight.
> The study showed there is Khazar DNA in AshkeNazis
Bosh. What I posted was:
Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have largely
disproven the Khazar origin theory for the majority of Ashkenazi.
A 1999 study by Hammer et al., published in the Proceedings of the
United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes
of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite,
and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic
locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in
different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish
populations were not significantly different from one another at the
genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal
gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the
Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral
population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained
relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during
and
after the Diaspora."[46] According to Nicholas Wade "The results
accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like
those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from
other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval
Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."[47]
A 2005 study by Nebel et al., based on Y chromosome polymorphic
markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other
Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in
Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#DNA_Evidence
Thereafter, Johnny Asia kindly confirmed that he was wrong, in three
seperate responses to the same post. And not only did he confirm he
was wrong, he underscored the long suspected fact that he hasn't a
clue what he's talking about.
Deborah
drahcir
>
> Thereafter, Johnny Asia kindly confirmed that he was wrong, in three
> seperate responses to the same post. And not only did he confirm he
> was wrong, he underscored the long suspected fact that he hasn't a
> clue what he's talking about.
>
> Deborah
Forget it, Johnny has enough trouble remembering the three letters DNA
- he can't possibly comprehend what they stand for, let alone how
genetic info is used. His "brain" is one helluva defective jumble of
neurons.
drahcir
> On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, Johnny Asia <bardic26...@mypacks.net>wrote:
>
> >The most common haplogroup in east european origin jews is regularly,
> >reliably found to be R1a, at about 40-50 %, which is the most common
> >Hg in Slavs and Turkic peoples.
>
> Johnny Asia must be feeling very, very desperate, as this is his third
> response to the same post.
LOL! The moron lost track of what it was he was supposed to be
challenging after I pointed out that he very considerately and
unintendedly posted something that corroborated your post. He is
perhaps the stupidest of the stupid.
> large percentage of the ancestors of modern Ashkenazim.http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/…
dsharavi
> > >The most common haplogroup in east european origin jews is regularly,
> > >reliably found to be R1a, at about 40-50 %, which is the most common
> > >Hg in Slavs and Turkic peoples.
> On Jul 13, 3:41 pm, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Johnny Asia must be feeling very, very desperate, as this is his third
> > response to the same post.
On Jul 13, 1:54 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> LOL! The moron lost track of what it was he was supposed to be
> challenging after I pointed out that he very considerately and
> unintendedly posted something that corroborated your post. He is
> perhaps the stupidest of the stupid.
You can tell he doesn't know what he's talking about -- this last post
was a paste job from a discussion on yahoo-answers -- and most of the
posts shot down his pasted argument. Quel maroon.
Deborah
> > Deborah- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
drahcir
> dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:8a184b8f-de54-4962-a6c9-
> 224943dad...@i18g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>
> > most Jewish
> > populations were not significantly different from one another at the
> > genetic level...
>
> easily SEE the difference between Jews from different locations! Some are
> dark-skinned Middle Easterners, others are caucasians from
> Russia/Ukraine/Europe. How blatantly false it is to say these all have the
> same genetics. It simply cannot be true, no matter how much revisionism
> the Zionists pigs want them to be.
Yeah, to hell with all that pesky "science" stuff!
>
> Getting the truth on this issue is probably impossible....
I'd say that it's a certainty for a moron like you.
>
> --
> -----
> Larry
>
> Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the entrails
> of the last cleric.
We don't need to by anywhere near so cruel to morons. Enforced
sterilization will do the trick.