Something Special for YOU!
Len Moskowitz
>: But do not confuse Chabad-Lubavitch with Lubavitch itself. They are two
>: separate though linked organizations. Perhaps Mr. Kazen will elaborate.
>
>Not true.
>
>Chabad-Lubavitch is one and the same
Do Rabbi Krinsky and Rabbi Butman represent different organizations?
>: Chabad does much good work. A large percentage of the money you give
>: Chabad is used locally, but much of it is passed upwards in the Chabad
>: organization. This varies with location. Ask about it.
>
>Not true. Every Chabad House or Chabad-Lubavitch Center (including this
>one) has to fend for itself and does NOT send any monies to "770".
I didn't say "770." My local Chabad house sends money to its regional
headquarters. What they do with it I don't know.
Are you saying that all money collected by the local Chabad houses gets
used locally?
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Joe Slater
[several other slurs deleted]
>Much of Chabad's energy is geared towards fund-raising. As with any
>charity, try to be aware of how the money you give will be spent.
>Chabad does much good work. A large percentage of the money you give
>Chabad is used locally, but much of it is passed upwards in the Chabad
>organization. This varies with location. Ask about it.
Len, your despicable post implies sinister purposes behind Chabad's
fund-raising. It is quite evident that most Shluchim (emissaries) live on
the verge of penury; that their institutions are chronically underfunded;
that if any funds are not spent locally they are surely spent on
worthwhile projects elsewhere. (*) Much of Chabad's energy is spent on
fund-raising? Len, what the dickens do you think is involved in running a
Jewish institution? It's the distinguishing feature of Chabad that so
much energy is spent on things *other* than raising funds.
Have you ever visited the Lubavitch headquarters at 770 Eastern Parkway?
No attempt has been made to disguise that it's a few houses knocked
together. If you go downstairs you see an expanse of vinyl floor poorly
lit by lights hanging from the ceiling, supported by naked girders.
Where's the money going, Len?
Check out the homes of Lubavitch representatives; their clothes, their
cars. Do any of them appear wealthy? There are wealthy Lubavitchers, but
it's wealth gained through business. I've never seen a Hillel director as
impoverished as a typical Chabad Shliach. What are they doing with the
money, Len?
I have never met you, but I am willing to wager that the Lubavitcher Rebbe,
ZTz"L, lived more abstemiously than you. If the money's passed upwards,
it's strange he didn't live more extravagantly. After his wife passed
away he lived in a small apartment, surrounded by his books. No
extravagant meals, entertainment, holidays or other luxuries. Where did
the money go, Len?
I urge readers of ths message to ask their local Lubavitch institution
where the money goes. I am sure that this will inspire the readers to
give more generously. I find it appalling that Len Moskowitz has
attempted to reduce funding to Jewish institutions. I can see no benefit
to him in this, except perhaps the schadenfreude of harming some worthy
people.
jds
(*) As a matter of fact, I think almost all funds *are* spent locally.
Chabad's just too disorganised to distribute funds efficiently.
--
j...@zikzak.apana.org.au | `You SHOULD have said "It's extremely
T: +61-3-525-8728 F: +61-3-562-0756 | kind of you to tell me all this" -
If all else fails try Fidonet: | however, we'll suppose it said.'
joe_s...@f351.n632.z3.fidonet.org | (The Red Queen)
Felix Vagabond
: And while I have your attention... If anyone wants to be so kind as to
: contribute to this Chabad House.... please send your tax-deductible
: contribution to our "funding organization":
Oh well.! Kazen asking for funds on the internet!!!!
Things are getting tough after the Rebbe's death?
How legal is this?????
: Central Organization for Jewish Outreach (you can write COJO on the check)
: 383 Kingston Avenue Suite 132
: Brooklyn, NY 11213
: And thank you!
: Just FYI we have over 7,000 mailings weekly to subscribers who receive
: Judiaca Material... plus our own Gopher ( gopher lubavitch.chabad.org)
: and many hours of work in developing Jewish Software for the physically
: Challenged as well as educational material for children.
: --
: B"H
: ---
--
==============================================================================
( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)
VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
==============================================================================
Naftoli Biber
>But do not confuse Chabad-Lubavitch with Lubavitch itself. They are two
>separate though linked organizations. Perhaps Mr. Kazen will elaborate.
This is very interesting. I have considered myself a Lubavitcher for well
over 20 years, I have studied in Lubavitch yeshivas and even lived in Crown
Heights (where Lubavitch Headquarters are located) for over 4 years. This
is the first that I have heard that Chabad and Lubavitch are separate
organisations. Please try to be truthful Len, despite your dislike for
Lubavitch there is no reason to make up ridiculous stories.
>Chabad-Lubavitch is a group of loosely linked local organizations, each
>of which operates semi-independently under a regional manager as a
>profit or loss center for its region. Each local group is run by its
>own management who decides what its policies will be; it can differ
>from Lubavitch as a whole quite a bit. Keep in mind that when you speak
>to one group or person, you are not speaking to the whole. Don't let
>the damage that one person does reflect on the whole of Lubavitch.
Anyone who knows anything about Lubavitch knows that each Shaliach runs his
own show BUT the Rebbe has always been the guiding light and always decided
"policies". Each Shaliach, as any individual does, will emphasise one aspect
over another or maybe concentrate on areas where his strengths lie. Overall
the philosophy of educating every Jew about Judaism without regard for what
"affiliation" that person is. Once a Jewish man, woman or child enters a
Chabad House or Chabad Shul that person is treated as an individual and not
as a Reform, Conservative or whatever Jew.
>Chabad has done much good work but recently it has also become a fringe
>group on the radical edge of Orthodoxy, especially with regard to its
>emphasis on Messianism and a decreasing tolerance for other Orthodox
>Jews.
Garbage!! This all goes back to the Jewish belief in Moshiach. The Rebbe
saw many years ago that belief in Moshiach was being given lip service only
and that most Jews (Lubavitchers included) did not really recognise that
his coming was imminent. The Rebbe himself started the Moshiach Campaign
and encouraged it - especially over the last 10 or 12 years.
>After their esteemed Rebbe's recent passing, Chabad is currently without
>a leader. This is creating a certain amount of chaos within Chabad.
>Various internal groups are asserting themselves to gain control of the
>organization. Be aware that Chabad is an organization much like any
>other, with the political infighting and empire building common to any
>large organization.
IMHO, the 1,500 Shluchim throughout the globe are the real leaders of
Lubavitch. They are doing the Rebbe's work and keeping his teachings alive.
>Much of Chabad's energy is geared towards fund-raising. As with any
>charity, try to be aware of how the money you give will be spent.
>Chabad does much good work. A large percentage of the money you give
>Chabad is used locally, but much of it is passed upwards in the Chabad
>organization. This varies with location. Ask about it.
More garbage!! Most of Chabad's enery is geared towards teaching and spreading
Judaism in almost every country of the world. Each Chabad House does it's own
fundraising and EVERY CENT of that money is ploughed back into programs at
that Chabad House. As a computer consultant I have voluntarily helped at many
Chabad Houses both in Australia and in the States (when I lived there) and I
know that all the money raised is used at the Chabad House and none of it goes
to some mythical organisation of Len's fertile imagination.
Hoping that this dispels some of the myths being created in scj about
Lubavitch and the Rebbe.
**** IF YOU STILL HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT CHABAD ****
Do not believe what you read on the net. Contact your local Chabad Rabbi
and/or Shaliach and check out what is going on in your local Chabad House.
Ask him all your questions, see Chabad House in action and make up your own
mind.
If you want addresses and phone number of the Chabad House nearest you
please send me personal email and I will obtain that information for you.
Naftoli
----------------------------
Naftoli Biber
Melbourne, Australia
bib...@tmxmelb.mhs.oz.au
YOSEF KAZEN
: Do Rabbi Krinsky and Rabbi Butman represent different organizations?
Rabbi Krinsky and Rabbi Butman each work in different areas within the
Chabad Lubavitch Movement.
Rabbi Krinsky has his departments and Rabbi Butman has his.
: I didn't say "770." My local Chabad house sends money to its regional
: headquarters. What they do with it I don't know.
The ONLY reason that may be is because the fellow was hired originally
for a limited amount of time and he has to pay back his salary, once
he fends for himself, or he has a deal with the regional hq that they
take care of his finances, so that he does not have to file WRS reports
and the like for payroll.
: Are you saying that all money collected by the local Chabad houses gets
: used locally?
ABSOLUTELY!
BTW... where are you located?
YY
Len Moskowitz
Joe Slater <j...@zikzak.apana.org.au> wrote:
>>Much of Chabad's energy is geared towards fund-raising. As with any
>>charity, try to be aware of how the money you give will be spent.
>>Chabad does much good work. A large percentage of the money you give
>>Chabad is used locally, but much of it is passed upwards in the Chabad
>>organization. This varies with location. Ask about it.
>
>Len, your despicable post implies sinister purposes behind Chabad's
>fund-raising. It is quite evident that most Shluchim (emissaries) live on
>the verge of penury; that their institutions are chronically underfunded;
>that if any funds are not spent locally they are surely spent on
>worthwhile projects elsewhere.
I have nothing but respect for most of Chabad's shlukhim and their work
in the world. I did not (and do not) intend to imply anything negative
about Chabad's use of funds. I apologize if that was in any way
implied. If you find my post despicable Joe, I must've certainly done
something wrong.
That said, some of their institutions are underfunded and others are
quite well funded. For example, it must cost quite a bit to run the
UCLA Chabad House. The yearly telethon in LA raises quite a bit of
money, no? Kehot, the Chabad publishing house, is funded well, no?
They certainly put out many new titles each year.
>Have you ever visited the Lubavitch headquarters at 770 Eastern Parkway?
>No attempt has been made to disguise that it's a few houses knocked
>together. If you go downstairs you see an expanse of vinyl floor poorly
>lit by lights hanging from the ceiling, supported by naked girders.
>Where's the money going, Len?
Yeshivot, publishing houses, kiruv, and other worthy causes. And yes,
I've seen 770. I hear that there's a duplicate at Kfar Chabad in
Israel.
>Check out the homes of Lubavitch representatives; their clothes, their
>cars. Do any of them appear wealthy? There are wealthy Lubavitchers, but
>it's wealth gained through business. I've never seen a Hillel director as
>impoverished as a typical Chabad Shliach. What are they doing with the
>money, Len?
I agree completely.
>I have never met you, but I am willing to wager that the Lubavitcher Rebbe,
>ZTz"L, lived more abstemiously than you. If the money's passed upwards,
>it's strange he didn't live more extravagantly. After his wife passed
>away he lived in a small apartment, surrounded by his books. No
>extravagant meals, entertainment, holidays or other luxuries. Where did
>the money go, Len?
Feeding yeshiva students in Morristown at the RCA?
>I urge readers of ths message to ask their local Lubavitch institution
>where the money goes. I am sure that this will inspire the readers to
>give more generously. I find it appalling that Len Moskowitz has
>attempted to reduce funding to Jewish institutions. I can see no benefit
>to him in this, except perhaps the schadenfreude of harming some worthy
>people.
I haven't and I won't. If anyone wants to give money to Lubavitch,
please do. I certainly give my share. Ask where it goes and let all of
us know.
Locally, our donations go to education, to support a Rabbi who acts as a
chaplain in the hospitals and prisons, to keep a minyan going in the
Chabad house, to deliver kosher meals to folks who need them, to welcome
those who are looking to come back to Judaism, and to pay the salaries
of a small office staff and two Rabbanim who serve the community. Some
of the money goes to regional headquarters to support their programs,
which are considerable and on the national level. The folks who work
for the local Chabad are selfless and truly deserve nothing but the
highest respect. Their families live very modest lives in the interest
of service to all the Jews of our community.
All of this makes me especially sad that the official Lubavitch presence
here on InterNet is as it is. I have to admit that I find the recent
Lubavitch messianic fervor tough to rationalize. There are real
problems in Lubavitch today: the very vocal fringe group and no clear
response from the leadership; the problems with Rav Shach; and the
somewhat elitist tinge that Chabad has taken on recently vis a vis other
Orthodox groups. It prompts me to consider re-evaluating my
relationship to Chabad.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Len Moskowitz
>Rabbi Krinsky and Rabbi Butman each work in different areas within the
>Chabad Lubavitch Movement.
>
>Rabbi Krinsky has his departments and Rabbi Butman has his.
Their groups seem to function as separate organizations despite being
under the same umbrella. Maybe it's just an internal power struggle?
>The ONLY reason that may be is because the fellow was hired originally
>for a limited amount of time and he has to pay back his salary, once
>he fends for himself, or he has a deal with the regional hq that they
>take care of his finances, so that he does not have to file WRS reports
>and the like for payroll.
Or maybe the regional HQ lent the money for the mortgage on their
property and perhaps that was must be re-paid. Or maybe the locals buy
into certain regional activities and have to pay for a share of the
costs?
>: Are you saying that all money collected by the local Chabad houses gets
>: used locally?
>
>ABSOLUTELY!
Can a local Chabad House's management channel money to other local,
regional, national, or international Lubavitch activities if it so
desires? What does it do with surplus monies, if any?
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Len Moskowitz
Naftoli Biber <bib...@tmx.mhs.oz.au> wrote:
>>But do not confuse Chabad-Lubavitch with Lubavitch itself. They are two
>>separate though linked organizations. Perhaps Mr. Kazen will elaborate.
>
>This is very interesting. I have considered myself a Lubavitcher for well
>over 20 years, I have studied in Lubavitch yeshivas and even lived in Crown
>Heights (where Lubavitch Headquarters are located) for over 4 years. This
>is the first that I have heard that Chabad and Lubavitch are separate
>organisations. Please try to be truthful Len, despite your dislike for
>Lubavitch there is no reason to make up ridiculous stories.
I could be wrong. Please do us all a favor and outline the structure of
Lubavitch organzations. What parts are incorporated as separate
non-profit corporations? What's the organizational structure and
management hierarchy of the Chabad Houses throughout the US and world.
How does information flow? A simple outline will do; don't make it
complicated or take too much time.
What formal, legal relationships do the Chabad outreach organizations
have to the internal Lubavitch organizations?
>>Chabad has done much good work but recently it has also become a fringe
>>group on the radical edge of Orthodoxy, especially with regard to its
>>emphasis on Messianism and a decreasing tolerance for other Orthodox
>>Jews.
>
>Garbage!! This all goes back to the Jewish belief in Moshiach. The Rebbe
>saw many years ago that belief in Moshiach was being given lip service only
>and that most Jews (Lubavitchers included) did not really recognise that
>his coming was imminent. The Rebbe himself started the Moshiach Campaign
>and encouraged it - especially over the last 10 or 12 years.
So perhaps the Rebbe was wrong? The Rebbe did much good work but he was
the leader of only one small group of Jews. Lubavitch's emphases are
their's only, despite Lubavitch's parochial concepts of what a tzaddik
is and how important the Rebbe was in the overall scheme of things.
Other sages of our time disagreed (some rather strongly, as Rav Shach
has shown) with the Rebbe's emphasis on Messianism.
Note that I don't call your opinions "garbage."
>Anyone who knows anything about Lubavitch knows that each Shaliach runs his
>own show BUT the Rebbe has always been the guiding light and always decided
>"policies".
And now, after the Rebbe's death, who is the guiding light and who
decides policies?
>IMHO, the 1,500 Shluchim throughout the globe are the real leaders of
>Lubavitch. They are doing the Rebbe's work and keeping his teachings
>alive.
As Yosef Kazen has shown in his extreme posts about Rav Shach, the
students of other Orthodox yeshivot, kashrut of khalav stam
(unsupervised milk), and the differing roles of a tzaddik in Orthodoxy,
without the Rebbe perhaps Chabad's vision and ideological purity is
faltering. I just can't imagine his activities being tolerated if the
Rebbe were still here.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
YOSEF KAZEN
: YOSEF KAZEN (y...@dorsai.org) wrote:
: : And while I have your attention... If anyone wants to be so kind as to
: : contribute to this Chabad House.... please send your tax-deductible
: : contribution to our "funding organization":
: Oh well.! Kazen asking for funds on the internet!!!!
: Things are getting tough after the Rebbe's death?
: How legal is this?????
:
: : Central Organization for Jewish Outreach (you can write COJO on the check)
: : 383 Kingston Avenue Suite 132
: : Brooklyn, NY 11213
The rules say... incidental information is allowed.
I do not "advertise" nor do I "spam" for business... but once
in a while I can't resist offering the opportunity for advertising
a Mitzvah or two <grin>
Is your check in the mail B->
YOSEF KAZEN
: Joe Slater <j...@zikzak.apana.org.au> wrote:
: implied. If you find my post despicable Joe, I must've certainly done
: something wrong.
: That said, some of their institutions are underfunded and others are
: quite well funded. For example, it must cost quite a bit to run the
: UCLA Chabad House. The yearly telethon in LA raises quite a bit of
: money, no? Kehot, the Chabad publishing house, is funded well, no?
: They certainly put out many new titles each year.
UCLA and the Telethon cover their own expenses, as well as many more
in California. They have a massive budget and it stays local.
As for Kehot or for that matter any other institution... they each have to
fend for themselves and will not stop even if they need to wait for money.
The uniqueness of Lubavitch has always been to forge ahead and not stop
because of financial constraints.
: Yeshivot, publishing houses, kiruv, and other worthy causes. And yes,
: I've seen 770. I hear that there's a duplicate at Kfar Chabad in
: Israel.
And what are the OBJECTIVES of all these mosdot? to help another Jew in
his/her observance of Torah and Mitzvot.
: Feeding yeshiva students in Morristown at the RCA?
What do you mean with the above sentence?
: All of this makes me especially sad that the official Lubavitch presence
: here on InterNet is as it is. I have to admit that I find the recent
Care to elucidate?
: Lubavitch messianic fervor tough to rationalize. There are real
It is very difficult to rationalize an issue of faith in the light of
logic.
The 13 Principles of FAITH are all difficult to "rationalize" so what
is the difference from before to now?
: problems in Lubavitch today: the very vocal fringe group and no clear
: response from the leadership; the problems with Rav Shach; and the
: somewhat elitist tinge that Chabad has taken on recently vis a vis other
: Orthodox groups. It prompts me to consider re-evaluating my
: relationship to Chabad.
You want us to sit back and relax and not provide insight to Chasidism?
I do not suppose you would expect the USA to sit back and do nothing
25 years ago either!
What do I mean?
As I wrote many times in the past.. Everything we see or hear has its
lesson in Avoda - Serving G-d.
Today the USA is celebrating its achievment of work done 25 years ago.
Is it elitist or something it is proud of?
I for one will not sit back and let Lubavitch be put into a box as an
organization that did something in the past and now is left to bask in its
glory. There is an objective to arrive to and that is L'ahvi L'Yemos
Ha'Mashiach. The world - in macrocosom and the individual in microcosom
have a mission in their being here, and it is to bring the world to
perfection - Ve'asu Li Mikdash V'Shachanti Betocham.
Let us all get to work!
Albert Reingewirtz
> Len Moskowitz (mosk...@panix.com) wrote:
> : Yosef Kazen, Director of Chabad-Lubavitch in Cyberspace,
> : <y...@dorsai.org> wrote:
>
> : >Chabad-Lubavitch is an international movement with headquarters in New
> : >York.
>
> : But do not confuse Chabad-Lubavitch with Lubavitch itself. They are two
> : separate though linked organizations. Perhaps Mr. Kazen will elaborate.
>
> Not true.
>
> Chabad-Lubavitch is one and the same
>
> : Chabad does much good work. A large percentage of the money you give
> : Chabad is used locally, but much of it is passed upwards in the Chabad
> : organization. This varies with location. Ask about it.
>
> Not true. Every Chabad House or Chabad-Lubavitch Center (including this
> one) has to fend for itself and does NOT send any monies to "770".
>
> And while I have your attention... If anyone wants to be so kind as to
> contribute to this Chabad House.... please send your tax-deductible
> contribution to our "funding organization":
>
> Central Organization for Jewish Outreach (you can write COJO on the check)
> 383 Kingston Avenue Suite 132
> Brooklyn, NY 11213
>
> And thank you!
>
> Just FYI we have over 7,000 mailings weekly to subscribers who receive
> Judiaca Material... plus our own Gopher ( gopher lubavitch.chabad.org)
> and many hours of work in developing Jewish Software for the physically
> Challenged as well as educational material for children.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> B"H
> ---
>
This must be a singular one! The net not only used for messianic
missionary activity but for raising money! I don't believe it! I would
send you drek!
--
INTERNET: alb...@netlink.nix.com (Albert Reingewirtz)
UUCP: ...!ryptyde!netlink!albert
Network Information eXchange * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Albert Reingewirtz
headquarters. What they do with it I don't know.
"
I can testify that at least I know of one use. They make pictures of
their dead Rebbe in full color separation, on the best hard paper
available and send milions of those pictures. That is what they do with
the money that I am aware off. For this they get a tax free status!
Missionaries among missionaries!
Matthew P Wiener
> * the denigration of the halakhically supportable behaviors of
> other Torah-true Jews (e.g., khalav stam)
I have yet to see a Lubavitcher denigrate halav stam drinkers, either
in person or in writing or on USENET. In fact, other than their recent
messianism, I have yet to see them engage in non-Lubavitch denigration.
(We'll ignore Satmar turf wars, as being in a non-religious category.)
Unfortunately, their zeal has led them to bunker down and attack those
who point out how ridiculous and anti-Torah their messianism has been.
If that is their only attacks on the rest of Orthodoxy, it should fade.
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Len Moskowitz
>And what are the OBJECTIVES of all these mosdot? to help another Jew in
>his/her observance of Torah and Mitzvot.
("Mosdot" are organizations.)
There are some good objectives and some not-so-good ones. The good ones
are to provide institutions that spread Jewish education, perform
outreach to non-observant Jews, and to do works of khessed (kindness) in
the community. Almost no one in Orthodox Jewish circles denies that
Lubavitch does tremendous good in these areas and we're all appreciative
and thankful for these efforts.
The not-so-good ones are the furthering of idiosyncratically Lubavitch
ideologies and the sowing of discord among the Torah-true community as a
whole. The key points of contention are the ones that are currently the
focus of discussion in this newsgroup, specifically:
* the emphasis on Messianism
* the definition of "tzaddik" and his role
* the role specifically of the Lubavitcher Rebbe(s)
* the denigration of sages who are not Lubavitcher as mere
"khakhamim" (e.g., the Vilna Goan, Rav Shach)
* the denigration of the halakhically supportable behaviors of
other Torah-true Jews (e.g., khalav stam)
* The denigration of other movements' yeshivot (and their
students) (e.g., YU/RIETS)
Each of these have been addressed in turn on this newsgroup. In each
case the holes in the Lubavitch assertions have been exposed. The
response is either vituperance or silence; I haven't yet seen the
Lubavitch spokesman acknowledge that their way is not the only way. And
*this* is what sows the most discord (along with the slander Mr. Kazen
has spread along the way).
What I conclude is that Ahavat Yisroel (love of fellow Jews) and
shlikhut (being the Rebbe's local agent/representative) is *sometimes* a
mask behind which Lubavitchers hide to spread peculiarly-Lubavitch
ideals and intolerance of other halakhically correct lifestyles. The
result is the exact opposite of Ahavat Yisroel.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Len Moskowitz
>UCLA and the Telethon cover their own expenses, as well as many more
>in California. They have a massive budget and it stays local.
Which proves the point that some Lubavitch operations are quite well
funded.
>: Feeding yeshiva students in Morristown at the RCA?
>
>What do you mean with the above sentence?
I mean that many yeshiva students at Lubavitch's seminary are supported
by Lubavitch -- a most salutary thing. Lubavitch supports Torah study.
>: All of this makes me especially sad that the official Lubavitch presence
>: here on InterNet is as it is. I have to admit that I find the recent
>
>Care to elucidate?
I've done so in many other posts. I've tried to condense those into
another reply to this post, starting a new thread.
>: Lubavitch messianic fervor tough to rationalize. There are real
>
>It is very difficult to rationalize an issue of faith in the light of
>logic.
>
>The 13 Principles of FAITH are all difficult to "rationalize" so what
>is the difference from before to now?
Lubavitch differs from the rest of Torah Judaism on this issue. The
Lubavitcher interpretation is idiosyncratic.
>Let us all get to work!
You spread discord and call it love.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Len Moskowitz
Matthew Wiener <wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu> wrote:
>I have yet to see a Lubavitcher denigrate halav stam drinkers, either
>in person or in writing or on USENET. In fact, other than their recent
>messianism, I have yet to see them engage in non-Lubavitch denigration.
>(We'll ignore Satmar turf wars, as being in a non-religious category.)
Mr. Kazen referred to kashrut organizations that certify khalav stam
products as "naval birshoot ha-Torah." If that's not denigration then I
don't know the meaning of the word.
>Unfortunately, their zeal has led them to bunker down and attack those
>who point out how ridiculous and anti-Torah their messianism has been.
>If that is their only attacks on the rest of Orthodoxy, it should fade.
Unfortunately it's not the only point of attack.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Albert Reingewirtz
regional, national, or international Lubavitch activities if it so
desires? What does it do with surplus monies, if any?
-- "
Isn't it obvious? They spend the money on good color separation, good
printer, and good mail service to send pictures of their Messiah. With
the money left, they clog the net with long unending messianic missionary
junk.
Art Werschulz
> "Mosdot" are organizations.
Oh. For a moment, I thought it was the Sefardi way of pronouncing the
name of a popular, but brain-dead, OS commonly found on IBM PCs.
Sorry. Shabbat Shalom in advance.
--
Art Werschulz (8-{)} "You can't make an ondelette without breaking waves."
InterNet: a...@cs.columbia.edu
ATTnet: Columbia University (212) 939-7061
Fordham University (212) 636-6325
Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund
course of the last 14 years. It has certainly given me a broad
perspective on the manner in which individual mosdot are run. To
personally experience the range of different (potpourri) atmosphere and
styles of the various shaluchim.
And while there are many differences, there is one universal trait: the
universal acceptance and openess of a Chabad House to all that come.
The genuine interest of the shaliach to all who enter the door of the
Chabad House.
Be it the visiting non-Chabad Orthodox traveller looking for a Shabbos
meal in a distant town, the student from the local college, the
intermarried couples of the local community, or Jewish homosexuals.
And, to the extent possible and with due care and caution, even the
occasional J for J, drug addict, and the mentally disturbed (who are
often re-directed by other Jewish groups to Chabad with the comment:
"Go to Chabad, they are open to everyone").
All this stands to reason. A shaliach travels to a distant town,
uprooting himself and his family from their families, putting the
chinnuch (education) of his children at risk, turning down much easier
and more secure ways of earning a living, and inevitably having to give
up much of his/her personal life due to the 24-hour a day demands of
being a shaliach. A shaliach goes on shaliach because of a profound
belief that he/she is there to help those in that community in whatever
way possible.
The charge of denigration is utterly far-fetched. It is a charge
without rhyme or reason. No one goes through such self-sacrifice for
one's fellow Jews, (and no matter what the situation of that Jew),
except when one truely believes that Ahavas Yisroel in every dimension
of its expression. As the song goes: "To love a fellow Jew, just the
same as you, that is the basis of our holy Torah".
There is no-one giving the shaliach points, there will be plenty of
opposition from sectors of the community, and certainly denigration
heaped on the shaliach, and there is no financial rewards and plenty of
insurmountable debts. One can only do this if one truely believes that
this activity is the most important thing that a person can put his
life to, and that ultimately it will lead in illuminating all Jewish
lives via the coming of Moshiach.
Now, if someone told me that he had a bad experience at a Chabad House,
I admit that it is possible. And there could be several reasons. Perhaps
some guest at the table said something uncouth. And while it
was not the shaliach, perhaps one figures that because the person
was dressed a certain way, then he/she was a Chabadnik.
Or perhaps the visting person enters with certain political/theological
grudges against Chabad. These can certainly color one's experience.
There can be many reasons and causes for an initial negative experience.
Perhaps one of them is the simple human fallibility that is common
to us all, Chabadnik and non-Chabadnik. It is all part of the peckel
of troubles HaShem has burdened us with, and is our avodah to refine.
One thing should be clear though, all Jews are proud of who they
are, and deserve to be treated with respect. Included in this,
is a firm belief that Yiddishkeit and Judiasm is correct, and
that there is nothing else in the world that compares. And while
we do hold this to be true - we also hold that it is important
to respect every human being and creature in the world. That is,
our pride in our Yiddishkeit should never lead us to denigrate
anyone or anything else, but rather teach us to respect all.
Pirkey Avot: Al tihey vaz l'chol adam, v'al tichey maflig m'kol
davar. Sh'ain l'cha adam sh'ain lo zman. V'ain l'cha davar sh'ain
lo mokom.
"Don't denigrate any person, and don't seperate yourself from any thing.
Because no person does not have his time, and no thing does not have
it's place."
And of all the Jewish Instituions, shuls, temples, etc, where I have
been in 39 years of travel I can tell you that the one that best
combines an inner pride in belief in Yiddishkeit WITH profound respect
for each and every Jew regardless of beliefs, practices, and personal
problems is Chabad.
BTW: I am going to be at SIGGRAPH in Orlanda Florida for the next two
weeks (organizing workshops etc). So I will get to see another Chabad
Mossad, and will be unable to follow this thread. I wish you all a Good
Shabbos, and true Yiddishe Nachas.
---
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund sgutf...@gte.com [MIME]
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA ftp://ftp.gte.com/pub/circus/home/home.html
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matthew P Wiener
>And, to the extent possible and with due care and caution, even the
>occasional J for J, drug addict, and the mentally disturbed (who are
>often re-directed by other Jewish groups to Chabad with the comment:
>"Go to Chabad, they are open to everyone").
Redirected? I think the word you're looking for is "dumped".
Matthew P Wiener
One reason you don't list, and for which there is really no excuse: Chabad
shlukhim tend to close their eyes when it comes to borderlines whom they
are working hard on act up, out of control, and cause endless tzuris for
everyone else.
Matthew P Wiener
>>I have yet to see a Lubavitcher denigrate halav stam drinkers, either
>Mr. Kazen referred to kashrut organizations that certify khalav stam
>products as "naval birshoot ha-Torah."
I thought that was Yehuda Silver? (I can't find the original.)
Actually, whoever said that was worse than just being a jerk, it was
said regarding the acceptance of halakha itself.
Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund
]That was not Yosef Kazen. That was Yehuda Silver, scj's only KOTM nominee.
Ok, I'll bite. What's KOTM?
King Of The Mountain?
Kindest Orthodox Tallis Manufacturer?
Kabbalist On The Moon?
Matthew P Wiener
>In article b...@netnews.upenn.edu, wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>]That was not Yosef Kazen. That was Yehuda Silver, scj's only KOTM nominee.
>Ok, I'll bite. What's KOTM?
Never mind. It was indeed Yosef Kazen who called the OU, OK, etc a
"naval birshus hatorah". Yehuda has made other hysterical attacks,
but not that particular one.
Sounds like it's time to burn my copy of Tanya. Oh wait, I don't have
one? Never mind....
Simon Streltsov
: In article <30op41$8...@ceylon.gte.com>, sg04@gte (Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund) writes:
: >And, to the extent possible and with due care and caution, even the
: >occasional J for J, drug addict, and the mentally disturbed (who are
: >often re-directed by other Jewish groups to Chabad with the comment:
: >"Go to Chabad, they are open to everyone").
: Redirected? I think the word you're looking for is "dumped".
I would stll use "redirected".
Indeed, many non-Lubavitch would send a person there
if appropriate.
The unfortunate thing is that the same people who
sacrifice their lives for the benefit of ignorami
bnei Israel,
are very hesitant in cooperating with other bnei Torah.
Maybe Yechezkal-Shimon can answer?
(I'll see him in couple of hours (-:)
Shabbat Shalom
Simcha
YOSEF_KAZEN
: whole. The key points of contention are the ones that are currently the
: focus of discussion in this newsgroup, specifically:
: * the emphasis on Messianism
There is nothing wrong Halachically or Morally to promote Moshiach,
especially since it is one of the 13 Ikarim.
: * the definition of "tzaddik" and his role
What is wrong to define this? Does it put you in awe of a Tzadik?
: * the role specifically of the Lubavitcher Rebbe(s)
As Leaders of world Jewry who care for every Jew notwithstanding his
or her level of observance it is something to emulate!
: * the denigration of sages who are not Lubavitcher as mere
: "khakhamim" (e.g., the Vilna Goan, Rav Shach)
They are NOT denigrated by Lubavitch on the net. They are denigrated
by the likes of those who say things in THEIR names in derision of
other Jews!
: * the denigration of the halakhically supportable behaviors of
: other Torah-true Jews (e.g., khalav stam)
As mentioned by NON LUBAVITCHER's Reb Moshe Feinstein' heter was not for
the Frum people of today (1994) [to enjoy Haagendaz Ice cream]!
Go ahead find me one ROshe Yeshiva that will allow it!
: * The denigration of other movements' yeshivot (and their
: students) (e.g., YU/RIETS)
The issue was not outright denigration.
When attacked in a forum that implied that Lubavitch should not be so
proud of its achievements in the multiple areas of Yiddishkeit, the
issue came up.
I did not go out there and open a can of worms like you seem to have tried
here.
: Each of these have been addressed in turn on this newsgroup. In each
: case the holes in the Lubavitch assertions have been exposed. The
And replied to, yet you feel that you have not seen them in one concise
area so you decided to be the SCJ Policeman and get it all in one place.
: What I conclude is that Ahavat Yisroel (love of fellow Jews) and
your actions
: result in the exact opposite of Ahavat Yisroel.
--
YY
Yosef Yitzchok Kazen | E-Mail to:
Director of Activities | y...@lubavitch.chabad.org
Joe Slater
>Joe Slater <j...@zikzak.apana.org.au> wrote:
>That said, some of their institutions are underfunded and others are
>quite well funded. For example, it must cost quite a bit to run the
>UCLA Chabad House. The yearly telethon in LA raises quite a bit of
>money, no? Kehot, the Chabad publishing house, is funded well, no?
>They certainly put out many new titles each year.
I have no knowledge of Kehot's finances, but I suspect that with a
committed market, no royalties and little or no advertising costs,
publishing is quite cheap.
>>I have never met you, but I am willing to wager that the Lubavitcher Rebbe,
>>ZTz"L, lived more abstemiously than you. If the money's passed upwards,
>>it's strange he didn't live more extravagantly. After his wife passed
>>away he lived in a small apartment, surrounded by his books. No
>>extravagant meals, entertainment, holidays or other luxuries. Where did
>>the money go, Len?
>Feeding yeshiva students in Morristown at the RCA?
That's possible, but in that event why not ask the Morristown Yeshiva
where they get their money? If they say, "xx% comes from Chabad, yy% from
students, zz% from donors" you atleast have something upon which to base
your allegations.
>Locally, our donations go to education, to support a Rabbi who acts as a
>chaplain in the hospitals and prisons, to keep a minyan going in the
>Chabad house, to deliver kosher meals to folks who need them, to welcome
>those who are looking to come back to Judaism, and to pay the salaries
>of a small office staff and two Rabbanim who serve the community. Some
>of the money goes to regional headquarters to support their programs,
>which are considerable and on the national level. The folks who work
>for the local Chabad are selfless and truly deserve nothing but the
>highest respect. Their families live very modest lives in the interest
>of service to all the Jews of our community.
It would be interesting to know how much money goes up the chain. I don't
know of any Chabad Houses in Australia which make money.
>All of this makes me especially sad that the official Lubavitch presence
>here on InterNet is as it is. I have to admit that I find the recent
>Lubavitch messianic fervor tough to rationalize. There are real
>problems in Lubavitch today: the very vocal fringe group and no clear
>response from the leadership; the problems with Rav Shach; and the
>somewhat elitist tinge that Chabad has taken on recently vis a vis other
>Orthodox groups. It prompts me to consider re-evaluating my
>relationship to Chabad.
This is why Chassidim need a Rebbe.
jds
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Mr. Kazen referred to kashrut organizations that certify khalav stam
: products as "naval birshoot ha-Torah." If that's not denigration then I
: don't know the meaning of the word.
I did not refer to the organizations that way. I refered to those who
claim to be torah scholars who use the heterim of chalav stam to fress
ice cream that is not chalav yisrael.
It's about time you guys read what I write and not what you THINK I write.
--
Y.Y. Kazen - Director of Activities - Chabad-Lubavitch in Cyberspace
y...@chabad.org - http://kesser.gte.com:7700/chabad/chabad.html
GOPHER: gopher lubavitch.chabad.org - WE WANT MOSHIACH NOW!!!
>>> Spreading Judaism via Computer Networks <<<
Len Moskowitz
>I did not refer to the organizations that way. I refered to those who
>claim to be torah scholars who use the heterim of chalav stam to fress
>ice cream that is not chalav yisrael.
>
>It's about time you guys read what I write and not what you THINK I
>write.
As I've pointed out before, what you convey in your posts is not what
you think you're conveying. When you wrote that Rav Shach was a
descendant of Haman you also had to explain what you intended. Perhaps
you should review your posts a few times for content before you hit the
"send" key?
Literally everything you write affects what people the world over think
of Lubavitch. It would behoove you to be careful about what you write.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Actually, whoever said that was worse than just being a jerk, it was
: said regarding the acceptance of halakha itself.
The issue was whether a torah scholar should rely on a heter for
non-essential food.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Never mind. It was indeed Yosef Kazen who called the OU, OK, etc a
: "naval birshus hatorah". Yehuda has made other hysterical attacks,
: but not that particular one.
No I did not. I will say it for the umteenth time. I called the fellow
who claims to be a torah scholar, but feels that he must fres ice cream
that is made from chalav stam - it was him I called a naval brshus hatorah.
k
YOSEF_KAZEN
: The unfortunate thing is that the same people who
: sacrifice their lives for the benefit of ignorami
: bnei Israel,
: are very hesitant in cooperating with other bnei Torah.
Cooperate they do! Look at the City of Pittsburgh, PA as an example!
Len Moskowitz
>No I did not. I will say it for the umteenth time. I called the fellow
>who claims to be a torah scholar, but feels that he must fres ice cream
>that is made from chalav stam - it was him I called a naval brshus
>hatorah.
Perhaps you are mis-using the phrase? Doesn't it mean someone who stays
within the letter of the law but does things clearly outside its spirit?
In this case if someone knowingly or unknowingly mis-interprets a p'sak,
they are not within the letter of the law.
So call him a shogaig or a mayzid; calling him a "naval" is likely
wrong. Much like referring to Rav Shach as a descendant of Haman.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Matthew P Wiener
>As mentioned by NON LUBAVITCHER's Reb Moshe Feinstein' heter was not
>for the Frum people of today (1994) [to enjoy Haagendaz Ice cream]!
>Go ahead find me one ROshe Yeshiva that will allow it!
The Philadelphia Yeshiva was not always chalav yisroel.
Matthew P Wiener
>: Actually, whoever said that was worse than just being a jerk, it was
>: said regarding the acceptance of halakha itself.
>The issue was whether a torah scholar should rely on a heter for
>non-essential food.
You're hallucinating.
Kashrus organizations--which is what you were criticizing--aren't meant
to certify food fit for a torah scholar only.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> In article b...@netnews.upenn.edu, wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
> ¨That was not Yosef Kazen. That was Yehuda Silver, scj's only KOTM nominee.
>
> Ok, I'll bite. What's KOTM?
>
> King Of The Mountain?
> Kindest Orthodox Tallis Manufacturer?
No. That's AT&T (American Tallis and Teffilin) :-)
> Kabbalist On The Moon?
>
>
> ---
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund sgutf...@gte.com ÝMIME¨
YOSEF_KAZEN
: As I've pointed out before, what you convey in your posts is not what
: you think you're conveying. When you wrote that Rav Shach was a
: descendant of Haman you also had to explain what you intended. Perhaps
: you should review your posts a few times for content before you hit the
: "send" key?
I never wrote that about him.
I only wrote a statement from the Talmud.
I never addrresed it to anyone.
Someone ELSE decided that it was addressed to whomever HE thought it was.
Speaking of slander.... if the hat fits wear it... or is the expression
if the shoe fits wear it?
YOSEF_KAZEN
: >As mentioned by NON LUBAVITCHER's Reb Moshe Feinstein' heter was not
: >for the Frum people of today (1994) [to enjoy Haagendaz Ice cream]!
: >Go ahead find me one ROshe Yeshiva that will allow it!
: The Philadelphia Yeshiva was not always chalav yisroel.
AND NOW??????????
Don't give me old stories? When did they switch and WHY did they Switch?
YOSEF_KAZEN
: >The issue was whether a torah scholar should rely on a heter for
: >non-essential food.
: You're hallucinating.
: Kashrus organizations--which is what you were criticizing--aren't meant
: to certify food fit for a torah scholar only.
I was NOT criticizing the Organizations. Go back to the Archives on umich.edu
and read them. I was criticizing a certain segment of users of heterim.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: I have no knowledge of Kehot's finances, but I suspect that with a
: committed market, no royalties and little or no advertising costs,
: publishing is quite cheap.
It's not as cheap as you think. But that is not the issue on hand.
The issue is, whether or not there is a cost factor, every Jew is OUR
concern. And this is what seems to bother certain people.
YOSEF_KAZEN
Perhaps you want to define Naval birshus hatora?
: Much like referring to Rav Shach as a descendant of Haman.
That was not my doing. Someone else was foolish enough to do it, and
has tried to attribute it to me. All I stated was a passage in the
Talmud.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: No. That's AT&T (American Tallis and Teffilin) :-)
I was told that TNT is talis and tefillin ;-)
Len Moskowitz
>Len Moskowitz (mosk...@panix.com) wrote:
>
>: As I've pointed out before, what you convey in your posts is not what
>: you think you're conveying. When you wrote that Rav Shach was a
>: descendant of Haman you also had to explain what you intended. Perhaps
>: you should review your posts a few times for content before you hit the
>: "send" key?
>
>I never wrote that about him.
>I only wrote a statement from the Talmud.
>I never addrresed it to anyone.
>Someone ELSE decided that it was addressed to whomever HE thought it
>was.
What baloney. You shoot your mouth off on the net and then try to hide
behind word games and technicalities.
>Speaking of slander.... if the hat fits wear it... or is the expression
>if the shoe fits wear it?
It's truly hard to believe that you are a shaliakh. I've never ever seen
one so eager to alienate other Jews with insensitive words.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Len Moskowitz
Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund <sg...@gte.com> wrote:
>I have traveled, visited, and lived in many Chabad Houses over the
>course of the last 14 years. It has certainly given me a broad
>perspective on the manner in which individual mosdot are run. To
>personally experience the range of different (potpourri) atmosphere and
>styles of the various shaluchim.
>
>And while there are many differences, there is one universal trait: the
>universal acceptance and openess of a Chabad House to all that come.
>The genuine interest of the shaliach to all who enter the door of the
>Chabad House.
I, too have travelled and visited many Chabad Houses. I've also davened
in one for a few years, took part in their programs, and learned to have
great respect for the shlikhim who are asked to essentially give their
lives to do khessed.
Those experiences are what makes me so especially surprised to see the
awful stuff that comes our way from Yosef Kazen, the "Lubavich emissary
to Cyberspace." This fellow just doesn't fit the mold of the shaliakh
who does khessed via Ahavat Yisrael. In the space of just a few short
weeks I've seen more questionable posts from him than I've seen from
anyone else who tries to pass himself off as a Torah Jew.
>And of all the Jewish Instituions, shuls, temples, etc, where I have
>been in 39 years of travel I can tell you that the one that best
>combines an inner pride in belief in Yiddishkeit WITH profound respect
>for each and every Jew regardless of beliefs, practices, and personal
>problems is Chabad.
With reference to the Chabad Houses I totally agree. Too bad Mr. Kazen
breaks with his organization in such a well read public forum. His
Chabad House is the InterNet and he certainly doesn't paint a welcoming
picture of Lubavitch here on s.c.j.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: In article <CtD5F...@dorsai.org>, yyk@dorsai (YOSEF_KAZEN) writes:
>: >As mentioned by NON LUBAVITCHER's Reb Moshe Feinstein' heter was not
>: >for the Frum people of today (1994) [to enjoy Haagendaz Ice cream]!
>: >Go ahead find me one ROshe Yeshiva that will allow it!
>: The Philadelphia Yeshiva was not always chalav yisroel.
>AND NOW??????????
And now it is.
>Don't give me old stories?
You made a falsehood, I corrected it.
> When did they switch and WHY did they Switch?
I don't know when they switched--I suppose when they could get the milk
on a regular basis.
Matthew P Wiener
>I was NOT criticizing the Organizations. Go back to the Archives on
>umich.edu and read them. I was criticizing a certain segment of
>users of heterim.
Let's see....
In article <CsxyD...@dorsai.org>, yyk@dorsai (YOSEF KAZEN) writes:
|Halacha is a very cold logic that will enable one to be a NAVAL
|BIRSHUS HATORAH... as per my previous example. It will provide the
|HETER for: Howard Johnson's Ice Cream or Haagendaz Ice Cream...which
|are under the supervision of a Kashruth Organization which does not
|emphasize that one should be careful not to eat Chalav Stam....
You do not identify the "one" who is a naval here. Based on the way
you jammed your sentences together, it appears to me that you were
referring to the OU.
Albert Reingewirtz
Now I know finally what director of activity is! It is name calling!
Fresser, naval bereshout a Torah... Nice!Yom Kipour is coming you will
have to do some serious al chet schmendrik!
--
INTERNET: alb...@netlink.nix.com (Albert Reingewirtz)
UUCP: ...!ryptyde!netlink!albert
Network Information eXchange * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Those experiences are what makes me so especially surprised to see the
: awful stuff that comes our way from Yosef Kazen, the "Lubavich emissary
: to Cyberspace." This fellow just doesn't fit the mold of the shaliakh
: who does khessed via Ahavat Yisrael. In the space of just a few short
: weeks I've seen more questionable posts from him than I've seen from
: anyone else who tries to pass himself off as a Torah Jew.
The questionable posts were replied to in each case.
None were left to imagination.
I will admit that I have caused SOME people to re-think and discuss issues
that have never been broached so openly.
What I have also see is that certain people would appreciate that issues
of Judaic Faith be left in the closet.
I find the Internet to be a phenomenal place to discuss Yiddishkeit
in the most open way possible and will exert every effort to participate
in this.
I also try my utmost not to be personal, but rather discuss the ISSUE on
hand. In the event of a personal attack I try to chuckle it off.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Yom Kipour is coming you will
You are coming to shul to watch me do it? For this alone it might be
worth it!
Lenny Chastkofsky
Lets be generous to Reb Kazen and assume that he was guilty only
of fuzzy thinking and an inability to express himself clearly,
not malevolent intent. His point seems to be that chassidus
teaches him not to be a naval birshus hatorah. He gives as an
example someone who overindulges in rich ice cream. This is
indeed a good example of a naval birshus hatorah, which is defined
by the Ramban in Parshas Kedoshim as a glutton or a similarly
immoderate person.However Reb Kazen then goes on to mention the
completely irrelevant point that such ice cream is probably also
chalav stam. As several people have pointed out, relying on R.Moshe's
heter does not make one a naval (not even a navel). On the other
hand, overindulgence in chalav yisroel ice cream would make one
a naval. Having got himself into difficulty by letting the
chalav stam bit slip in, Reb Kazen flounders in trying to extricate
himself from it, instead of just conceding that he was wrong to
bring it in in the first place.
I think that Reb Kazen was also incorrect in his original point,
in claiming the superiority of Chassidus in teaching him about
naval birshus hatorah. He could just as easily have learnt it from the
Ramban, and the sources in the gemorrah that the Ramban brings
down. Perhaps more time spent on gemorrah and less on chassidus
would make his thinking a little clearer?
YOSEF_KAZEN
: What baloney. You shoot your mouth off on the net and then try to hide
: behind word games and technicalities.
I am not hiding! Words are picked very carefully!
YOSEF_KAZEN
: I don't know when they switched--I suppose when they could get the milk
: on a regular basis.
Please, get the facts not suppositions. It'll certainly help!
YOSEF_KAZEN
: In article <CsxyD...@dorsai.org>, yyk@dorsai (YOSEF KAZEN) writes:
: |Halacha is a very cold logic that will enable one to be a NAVAL
: |BIRSHUS HATORAH... as per my previous example. It will provide the
: |HETER for: Howard Johnson's Ice Cream or Haagendaz Ice Cream...which
: |are under the supervision of a Kashruth Organization which does not
: |emphasize that one should be careful not to eat Chalav Stam....
: You do not identify the "one" who is a naval here. Based on the way
: you jammed your sentences together, it appears to me that you were
: referring to the OU.
Thank you for going to the archives and posting the full sentences.
Lenny Chastkofsky
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: In article <CtD5F...@dorsai.org>, yyk@dorsai (YOSEF_KAZEN) writes:
>: >As mentioned by NON LUBAVITCHER's Reb Moshe Feinstein' heter was not
>: >for the Frum people of today (1994) [to enjoy Haagendaz Ice cream]!
>
>: >Go ahead find me one ROshe Yeshiva that will allow it!
>
>: The Philadelphia Yeshiva was not always chalav yisroel.
>
>
>AND NOW??????????
>
>Don't give me old stories? When did they switch and WHY did they Switch?
>
>--
>Y.Y. Kazen - Director of Activities - Chabad-Lubavitch in Cyberspace
I don't know about Philadelphia, but Ner Yisroel in Baltimore was also
not always chalav yisroel. The raeson was that you couldn't get chalav
yisroel in Baltimore, and the reason for that was that the community
at that time couldn't support it without the help of the Yeshivah. I
believe that the reason that the Yeshivah wouldn't support it was
financial: they believed that it was more worthwhile using the money
to support bochrim sitting and learning than using it to support
chalav yisroel operation. I believe that they eventually switched
to chalav yisroel because of pressure from the rest of the frum
community in Baltimore, or perhaps their finances improved to the
point where they felt that they could afford it.
Leibel
Matthew P Wiener
>Lets be generous to Reb Kazen and assume that he was guilty only
>of fuzzy thinking and an inability to express himself clearly,
>not malevolent intent.
Perhaps Chabad should find another Cyberspace Activities Director?
Fuzzy thinking and blundering words may be a minor handicap in real
life, but here on scj they are guaranteed to be fatal to whatever
mission he may be on.
This is even before we get to his serious attitude problem.
>Having got himself into difficulty by letting the chalav stam bit
>slip in, Reb Kazen flounders in trying to extricate himself from it,
>instead of just conceding that he was wrong to bring it in in the
>first place.
He is floundering, but not on this point. His attacks have narrowed
down to rabbaim who eat cholov stam.
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote: : I don't know
>when they switched--I suppose when they could get the milk : on a
>regular basis.
>Please, get the facts not suppositions. It'll certainly help!
The fact was they *were* cholov stam for quite some time. That is
not supposition.
I really particularly don't care about their reasons. The mere fact
exposed your original statement to be the raw gibberish it was.
Matthew P Wiener
>Not knowing you or your background, but judging by your words alone,
>I'll venture to ask you if you have any particular objection to
>Chassidus?
Bitul torah? It teaches one how to be a baal gaivah?
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Lets be generous to Reb Kazen and assume that he was guilty only
: of fuzzy thinking and an inability to express himself clearly,
: not malevolent intent. His point seems to be that chassidus
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt!
However... I will take you up on the following issue:
: I think that Reb Kazen was also incorrect in his original point,
: in claiming the superiority of Chassidus in teaching him about
: naval birshus hatorah. He could just as easily have learnt it from the
: Ramban, and the sources in the gemorrah that the Ramban brings
: down. Perhaps more time spent on gemorrah and less on chassidus
: would make his thinking a little clearer?
Not knowing you or your background, but judging by your words alone,
I'll venture to ask you if you have any particular objection to
Chassidus?
I'll leave all the other questions aside until I can ascertain the
meaning and intent of your statement above.
YOSEF_KAZEN
[sd]
: I believe that the reason that the Yeshivah wouldn't support it was
: financial: they believed that it was more worthwhile using the money
: to support bochrim sitting and learning than using it to support
: chalav yisroel operation. I believe that they eventually switched
: to chalav yisroel because of pressure from the rest of the frum
: community in Baltimore, or perhaps their finances improved to the
: point where they felt that they could afford it.
I believe is a great statement, which carry's little weight...
Mimanafshach.... If it's mutar why the pressure. If the finances
improved are they REALLY in the black?
'nuff said?
--
Y.Y. Kazen - Director of Activities - Chabad-Lubavitch in Cyberspace
Len Moskowitz
>: What baloney. You shoot your mouth off on the net and then try to hide
>: behind word games and technicalities.
>
>I am not hiding! Words are picked very carefully!
Really? If what you mean is that you've intended all the insults you've
heaped on others instead of them being careless or the result of poor
command of the language, you've taken away the benefit of the doubt
we've been giving you.
Too bad.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
YOSEF_KAZEN
: >Please, get the facts not suppositions. It'll certainly help!
: The fact was they *were* cholov stam for quite some time. That is
: not supposition.
: I really particularly don't care about their reasons. The mere fact
: exposed your original statement to be the raw gibberish it was.
It was not gibberish based on the reasons given by someone other than
me. There seems to be some merit in "switching" from Chlov Stam to Cholov
Yisrael and this was the whole issue.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Bitul torah? It teaches one how to be a baal gaivah?
Are you implying that Chassidus is not Torah?
As for being a baal gaivah I wonder what the cause really is? Maybe it's
not learning enough Chassidus or being an Alumnus from a certain Yeshivah
other than Lubavitch that got to me!
YOSEF_KAZEN
: He is floundering, but not on this point. His attacks have narrowed
: down to rabbaim who eat cholov stam.
My "attacks" are not on them. You seem to withhold certain information
for whatever reason and then you blame me for this!
Yet you admit that at least lately there were sufficient reason for
Cholov Stam Drinkers to switch to Cholov Yisrael. So it seems that there
is merit in the argument for not continuing to use the Cholov Stam heter.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: >I am not hiding! Words are picked very carefully!
: Really? If what you mean is that you've intended all the insults you've
: heaped on others instead of them being careless or the result of poor
: command of the language, you've taken away the benefit of the doubt
: we've been giving you.
: Too bad.
Again YOU seem to be deciding what I mean! If I want to say something
about somebody I am perfectly able to. Yet I stay away from saying
anything outright, and you make a decision that I said this that or the other
about this person or that person, and then you make a case against me on
the basis of your thoughts.
Now, if EVER there was a need for learning certain Dinim the time is now!
'nuff said?
Matthew P Wiener
>It was not gibberish based on the reasons given by someone other than
>me. There seems to be some merit in "switching" from Chlov Stam to
>Cholov Yisrael and this was the whole issue.
Your statement was a flat out denial regarding Roshei Yeshivos and
their approval of cholov stam.
Of course there is merit to switching, but your statement that was
false was not about relative choices, but an absolute declaration.
One that happened to have been false.
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: Bitul torah? It teaches one how to be a baal gaivah?
>Are you implying that Chassidus is not Torah?
Based on you, it obviously isn't.
>As for being a baal gaivah I wonder what the cause really is? Maybe it's
>not learning enough Chassidus or being an Alumnus from a certain Yeshivah
>other than Lubavitch that got to me!
Wow. A baal gaivah and proud of it too.
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: He is floundering, but not on this point. His attacks have narrowed
>: down to rabbaim who eat cholov stam.
>My "attacks" are not on them.
Yes they were. You're just lying now.
> You seem to withhold certain information
>for whatever reason and then you blame me for this!
Who were you attacking then?
>Yet you admit that at least lately there were sufficient reason for
>Cholov Stam Drinkers to switch to Cholov Yisrael.
Well of course! Meanwhile, when the circumstances were such, there
was perfectly fine merit for those who drank cholov stam.
> So it seems that there
>is merit in the argument for not continuing to use the Cholov Stam heter.
Meanwhile, what does that say regarding Haagendasz? Nothing, really.
Albert Reingewirtz
Not true! You try to be a good missionary there is a difference. "I see
you have a problem my son I know someone who could helpo you" Does it
ring a bell? You have tefilin on the ready at all time?
Albert Reingewirtz
No I will not come to "shool"! I will be eating 3 meals and loving it!
Albert Reingewirtz
Like in your post on evolution and that the animals that are kasher have
the same number today as they had before using Jewish sources to prove
your point? You need to take a class called logic 101 in a hurry! You
also need a class specifically aimed at rules of evidence. Instead of
picking at words you would do much better picking at your nose. This
would be a good activity to direct Mr. Director!
Albert Reingewirtz
I'll venture to ask you if you have any particular objection to
Chassidus?
I'll leave all the other questions aside until I can ascertain the
meaning and intent of your statement above.
"
Objection to Chassidus? What's that? Do you mean Chassidut? Who has
Chasodut? Not Chabad! They are missionaries, doing avoda zara they llok
more and more like Christians. When are you calling the Pope Rebbe?