Why do people buy kosher?
Micha Berger
reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
<http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-kosher-for-safety-reasons-says-Mintel>
or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
Three in five people who buy kosher food do so because they perceive
it to be better quality, in contrast with only 14 percent of consumers
who said they bought it because they adhere to kosher religious rules,
the study found.
Senior new product analyst at Mintel Krista Faron told
FoodNavigator-USA.com: "The presence of the kosher mark itself suggests
that there is [an inspection] process in place. It is all about consumer
perception that there is some sort of formalized methodology...My sense
is that consumers probably couldn't tell us what kosher meant, but the
kosher mark is reassuring."
After food quality, 'healthfulness' and 'safety' round off the top three
drivers for kosher food purchases. Faron agreed that kosher food has
a reputation for being subjected to careful production and inspection
processes and that this has an effect on kosher sales and new product
launches.
...
Simcha
> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> Three in five people who buy kosher food do so because they perceive
> it to be better quality, in contrast with only 14 percent of consumers
> who said they bought it because they adhere to kosher religious rules,
> the study found.
>
> Senior new product analyst at Mintel Krista Faron told
> FoodNavigator-USA.com: "The presence of the kosher mark itself suggests
> that there is [an inspection] process in place. It is all about consumer
> perception that there is some sort of formalized methodology...My sense
> is that consumers probably couldn't tell us what kosher meant, but the
> kosher mark is reassuring."
>
> After food quality, 'healthfulness' and 'safety' round off the top three
> drivers for kosher food purchases. Faron agreed that kosher food has
> a reputation for being subjected to careful production and inspection
> processes and that this has an effect on kosher sales and new product
> launches.
> ...
My Friend Charlie the Rich Dermatologist may buy kosher because it's
a very easy way for him to be "religious".
He may look at internet porn, not daven daily, not learn, not be
shomer shabbat, and not have sired Jewish children.
But how proudly he shows me his cans and packages with the "U" or
whatever the hell the Orthodox Unions current symbol is! What could be
more convenient? Simcha
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> <http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-kosher-for-safety-reasons-says-Mintel>
> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
I'm the one who forwarded the item to Yitz Levine whom I see publicized
it.
>
> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
I see Yitz didn't post:
"You left out my comment that they never ate PITCHA or ate chopped liver with
gallons of goose SHMALTZ :-)
Really "healthy" foods !"
KT
Josh
Tim Meushaw
<snip>
> But how proudly he shows me his cans and packages with the "U" or
> whatever the hell the Orthodox Unions current symbol is! What could be
> more convenient? Simcha
More convenient? Showing you the cans with the Circle-R or Circle-C
hechsher. One or both of those is on *everything.*
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Fiona Abrahami
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
Health and safety! She's kidding right?
In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a hechsher
it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on dangerous -
particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on buying with a
hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of kosher food has way
too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making
MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
When I was in hospital a couple of years ago (I probably told this story
already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a very
few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some pre-packed
frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply hospitals
and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
Bake your own bread, cook your own fresh vegetables, and lay off the candies
and sodas anyway...
Fiona
Tim Meushaw
>
> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
>> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
>> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>>
>> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
>> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>>
>> <http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-kosher-for-safety-reasons-says-Mintel>
>> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>>
>> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
>> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>>
>> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
>> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> Health and safety! She's kidding right?
>
> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a hechsher
> it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on dangerous -
> particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on buying with a
> hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of kosher food has way
> too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making
> MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
Just because people presume it's healthier, doesn't mean it is. The
public has the impression that because a rabbi has to check all the
ingredients, they won't be putting in anything he doesn't understand.
Plus, the rabbi answers to God, and he wouldn't lie about what's in
there, would he? Unlike a corporation who could put anything on the
label and no one in the public would be the wiser.
Never mind the fact that one package contains 2000% of your sodium
intake for the day....
> When I was in hospital a couple of years ago (I probably told this story
> already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a very
> few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some pre-packed
> frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
> franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
> awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
> too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply hospitals
> and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
> vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
BA"H, you won't have to find out anytime soon.
> Bake your own bread, cook your own fresh vegetables, and lay off the candies
> and sodas anyway...
I broke down and bought some six-packs of Coca Cola last Pesach, since
it didn't have corn syrup. I've still got quite a few, since I forgot
I don't drink soda....
W. Baker
: Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
: Tir'u baTov!
: -Micha
Many lactose intolerant or milk allergic(not identical) people rely on
parev designation for many baked goods and other foods.
Wendy Baker
Tim Meushaw
> Many lactose intolerant or milk allergic(not identical) people rely on
> parev designation for many baked goods and other foods.
I saw something interesting in the store the other week. I forget
what the item was, but it was advertised as being Vegan, both in the
brand name and in the symbols on the package. Also on the package was
an OU(D).
(I know that's likely for having been made on dairy equipment, since the
OU doesn't distinguish, but if someone's truly keeping vegan, wouldn't
that matter to them, as well?)
mm
wrote:
Keeping kosher is important. Your friend** didn't make that up. It's
certainly not very easy.
**Are you a friend of your friend? You seem to despise him.
>He may look at internet porn, not daven daily, not learn, not be
>shomer shabbat, and not have sired Jewish children.
He may, but he may not. If he did, and you knew it, I would expect
you to say "does" not "may". If he had a non-Jewish child, maybe he
repented since then, but I don't know of any intermarried Jew who
keeps kosher.
When I was in highschool, a boy and two of his sisters waited for the
school bus at the same place I did. One or both of his sisters were
the right age for me to date, but I knew that their mother was not a
Jew. Just once, I think, I was over at their house, during hol
hamo'ed Pesach, and one of them or their mother offerred me matzah,
which had not been bought for me who wasn't expected but for
themselves. As I started to eat some, I notice that on the box it
said "Not Kosher for Passover". I had never heard of such a thing. I
don't remember if I had eaten any of it or not, but if I did, it
wasn't my fault. I was 15 and had never heard of non-KP matzah.
(Although now I see its role/) If I did eat, I atoned for it the next
fall. Anyhow, that's the level of kashrus one usually sees from a
familyi with a Jewish man married to a non-Jewish woman.
Later I met a single woman who I think violated a lot of halachos,
like Shabbes, etc. She kept kosher and had a free-loading friend who
stayed at her house without even paying rent, and kept messing up her
dishes and flatware. Her friend never seemed to remember how much
effort it was to kasher a fork that she had ruined.
This woman never talked about keeping kosher except when her roommate
got her angry, but then she did say she kept kosher (apparently not
because it is commanded but) becaause it kept her in touch with her
heritage and the Jewish people. Not the only possible reaosn but it
seems like a good reason to me. How do you know that's not your
friend's reason?
P.S. This woman is not going to intermarry.
>But how proudly he shows me his cans and packages with the "U" or
>whatever the hell the Orthodox Unions current symbol is! What could be
>more convenient? Simcha
I think maybe you mean that when he has a can or package with a kosher
symbol on it, it's convenient to show it to you.
You certainly don't think it's convenient to buy only kosher food.
mm
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The vast majority of kosher food has way
>too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives.
Salt only affects some peole. I eat loads and my blood pressure is
usually 100/70 or 110/60.
As to preservatives, I figure they'll preserve me. So far, I look
pretty young for my age so they're working.
:=)
What are e-numberws?
Seriously though, in the USA about 1/3 of all the processed food has a
hashgacha, almost always a well-respected one. Most of it is not
Jewish-style food, it's just all kinds of food that Americans eat.
Fiona Abrahami
"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
>> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
>> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>>
>> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
>> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>>
>> <http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-kosher-for-safety-reasons-says-Mintel>
>> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>>
>> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
>> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>>
>> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
>> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> Health and safety! She's kidding right?
>
> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a
> hechsher it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on
> dangerous - particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on
> buying with a hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of
> kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the
> point of making MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
Oh, and the sugar, I forgot to mention the sugar. Why does everything with a
hechsher have to have a ton of sugar in it??
Fiona
Tim Meushaw
> What are e-numbers?
You know all that crap we have, like potassium sorbate and dihydrogen
monoxide? In Europe, they code them so the ingredients lists don't
need their own separate label.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_number
Fiona Abrahami
"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>The vast majority of kosher food has way
>>too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives.
>
> Salt only affects some peole. I eat loads and my blood pressure is
> usually 100/70 or 110/60.
>
> As to preservatives, I figure they'll preserve me. So far, I look
> pretty young for my age so they're working.
Self mummifacation, there's an interesting concept.
> What are e-numbers?
Additives of various descriptions, like chemically derived flavourings and
food colourings. In EU law they are designated by a number with an E prefix,
e.g. E321. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_number
Fiona
Patty
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:22:49 +0000 (UTC), "Fiona Abrahami"
>
> <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >The vast majority of kosher food has way
> >too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives.
>
> Salt only affects some peole. I eat loads and my blood pressure is
> usually 100/70 or 110/60.
Yeah, whistle past that graveyard!
Fiona Abrahami
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote
> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> What are e-numbers?
>
> You know all that crap we have, like potassium sorbate and dihydrogen
> monoxide?
Tim, I think you'll find that hydric acid doesn't get an e-number, though
I've seen called some funny names in product packaging.
Fiona
Tim Meushaw
Well, I was just pulling examples out of the air. I didn't crosscheck
them with the E lists. I'm shocked, though; you'd think that one
would definately have one, given how pervasive and dangerous it is.
mm
<meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
>On 2009-02-11, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> What are e-numbers?
>
>You know all that crap we have, like potassium sorbate and dihydrogen
>monoxide? In Europe, they code them so the ingredients lists don't
>need their own separate label.
That reminds me of the old=age home that my Uncle Harry used to live
in. Every week they had entertainment night, and sometimes the
residents did comedy night. So his friend Leo got up, and because
they had heard the same jokes so often, Leo had assigned them numbers,
to save time.
So he says "43!", and everyone laughed, including me.
And then he said "29!" and the laughter was even greater.
Then he said "52!" and it was practically quiet until my uncle called
out, "You never tell that one right."
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-Feb-2009, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
We've done it periodically.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-Feb-2009, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2009-02-11, Simcha <sim...@jewgle.us> wrote:
> <snip>
> > But how proudly he shows me his cans and packages with the "U" or
> > whatever the hell the Orthodox Unions current symbol is! What could be
> > more convenient? Simcha
>
> More convenient? Showing you the cans with the Circle-R or Circle-C
> hechsher. One or both of those is on *everything.*
plplplplplplplplplpl!
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-Feb-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> When I was in hospital a couple of years ago (I probably told this story
> already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a
> very
> few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some
> pre-packed
> frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
> franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
> awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
> too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply
> hospitals
> and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
> vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
I had my husband bring stuff into me the last time - I just couldn't stand
it.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-Feb-2009, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
Friend of mine's daughter was so allergic to milk that I ended up clueing
her into that mark.
Susan
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> Three in five people who buy kosher food do so because they perceive
> it to be better quality, in contrast with only 14 percent of consumers
> who said they bought it because they adhere to kosher religious rules,
> the study found.
>
> Senior new product analyst at Mintel Krista Faron told
> FoodNavigator-USA.com: "The presence of the kosher mark itself suggests
> that there is [an inspection] process in place. It is all about consumer
> perception that there is some sort of formalized methodology...My sense
> is that consumers probably couldn't tell us what kosher meant, but the
> kosher mark is reassuring."
>
> After food quality, 'healthfulness' and 'safety' round off the top three
> drivers for kosher food purchases. Faron agreed that kosher food has
> a reputation for being subjected to careful production and inspection
> processes and that this has an effect on kosher sales and new product
> launches.
> ...
I know of a lot of goyim who seek out kosher products. Especially if
they have food allergies. Generally one can assume that if a kosher
product says that it contacts such and such, it does.
Also many muslims buy kosher.
But we are seeing more and more non Jews just buying kosher due food
worries. It may be time to push for fast food chains to be kosher.
cindys
I think the idea that an aluminum pot can absorb and retain the
essence of a meat or dairy substance which has been cooked in it
(despite washing the pot with hot water and soap after use) is kind of
an observant Jewish thing. Try telling that to a non-Jew (or a secular
Jew), and he'll tell you you've lost your mind. The only vegetarians
that I have known who objected to their veggies being cooked in a meat
pot were observant Jews. To anyone who isn't an observant Jew, if you
wash a pot, it's clean. Period. The non-Jewish vegans I used to know
couldn't have cared less about what had previously been in the pot, as
long as the pot had been washed. Admittedly, this is only anecdotal
and limited to my own personal experience (which is admittedly rather
limited).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Feb-2009, cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> I think the idea that an aluminum pot can absorb and retain the
> essence of a meat or dairy substance which has been cooked in it
> (despite washing the pot with hot water and soap after use) is kind of
> an observant Jewish thing. Try telling that to a non-Jew (or a secular
> Jew), and he'll tell you you've lost your mind. The only vegetarians
> that I have known who objected to their veggies being cooked in a meat
> pot were observant Jews. To anyone who isn't an observant Jew, if you
> wash a pot, it's clean. Period. The non-Jewish vegans I used to know
> couldn't have cared less about what had previously been in the pot, as
> long as the pot had been washed. Admittedly, this is only anecdotal
> and limited to my own personal experience (which is admittedly rather
> limited).
I've just gotten anecdotal confirmation that we're right & the rest
of the world is wrong: a friend of mine who has terrible problems
w/gluten has told me that in order to make gluten-free baked goods,
you absolutely have to have separate pots/pans, that just washing
them isn't enough :-)
Susan
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I doubt it. Do vegans have a Shulchan Aruch which rules about
"flavors" passed in utensils?
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
>
>>> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since
>>> the (U) reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
snip
>>> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
>>> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>>
>> Health and safety! She's kidding right?
>>
>> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a
>> hechsher it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on
>> dangerous - particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on
>> buying with a hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of
>> kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the
>> point of making MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
>
> Oh, and the sugar, I forgot to mention the sugar. Why does everything
> with a hechsher have to have a ton of sugar in it??
To counteract all that _salt_!
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Tim Meushaw <meus...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> W. Baker <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Many lactose intolerant or milk allergic(not identical) people rely on
>> > parev designation for many baked goods and other foods.
>>
>> what the item was, but it was advertised as being Vegan, both in the
>> an OU(D).
>>
>> (I know that's likely for having been made on dairy equipment, since the
>> OU doesn't distinguish, but if someone's truly keeping vegan, wouldn't
>> that matter to them, as well?)
> ------------------
> I think the idea that an aluminum pot can absorb and retain the
> essence of a meat or dairy substance which has been cooked in it
> (despite washing the pot with hot water and soap after use) is kind of
> an observant Jewish thing. Try telling that to a non-Jew (or a secular
> Jew), and he'll tell you you've lost your mind. The only vegetarians
> that I have known who objected to their veggies being cooked in a meat
> pot were observant Jews. To anyone who isn't an observant Jew, if you
> wash a pot, it's clean. Period. The non-Jewish vegans I used to know
> couldn't have cared less about what had previously been in the pot, as
> long as the pot had been washed. Admittedly, this is only anecdotal
> and limited to my own personal experience (which is admittedly rather
> limited).
OTOH, I have heard that in real high-class restaurants, the chef is
very particular that every type of food have its _own_ pot!
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Fiona Abrahami <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
>
>>> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
>>> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>>>
>>> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
>>> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>>>
>>> <http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-kosher-for-safety-reasons-says-Mintel>
>>> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>>>
>>> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
>>> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>>>
>>> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
>>> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>>
>> Health and safety! She's kidding right?
I _love_ Fiona's style...
>> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a
>> hechsher it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering
>> on dangerous - particularly anything processed.
Maybe the difference is between USA which has an FDA (Food and Drug
Administration) and Britain.
>> The only food I insist on buying with a hechsher is wine, meat and
>> cheese. The vast majority of kosher food has way too much salt,
>> e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making MacDonald's
>> look healthy! It's junk!
That's hyperbole, but I'll let you get away with it.
> Just because people presume it's healthier, doesn't mean it is. The
> public has the impression that because a rabbi has to check all the
> ingredients, they won't be putting in anything he doesn't understand.
> Plus, the rabbi answers to God, and he wouldn't lie about what's in
> there, would he? Unlike a corporation who could put anything on the
> label and no one in the public would be the wiser.
>
> Never mind the fact that one package contains 2000% of your sodium
> intake for the day....
>
>> When I was in hospital a couple of years ago (I probably told this story
>> already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a very
>> few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some pre-packed
>> frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
>> franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
>> awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
>> too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply hospitals
>> and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
>> vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
>
> BA"H, you won't have to find out anytime soon.
>
>> Bake your own bread, cook your own fresh vegetables, and lay off
>> the candies and sodas anyway...
Excellent advice. I hardly drink carbonated sodas and mix the fruit
drinks with lots of water.
> I broke down and bought some six-packs of Coca Cola last Pesach, since
> it didn't have corn syrup. I've still got quite a few, since I forgot
> I don't drink soda....
LOL. Usually, "extra" food gets thrown out during Pesach cleaning.
But in this case...
Fiona Abrahami
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
>>
>>>> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since
>>>> the (U) reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> snip
>
>>>> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
>>>> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from
>>>> Mintel.
>>>
>>> Health and safety! She's kidding right?
>>>
>>> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a
>>> hechsher it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on
>>> dangerous - particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on
>>> buying with a hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of
>>> kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the
>>> point of making MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
>>
>> Oh, and the sugar, I forgot to mention the sugar. Why does everything
>> with a hechsher have to have a ton of sugar in it??
>
> To counteract all that _salt_!
:-)) And I love your style too.
Fiona
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
Personally, I admit to having a problem accepting the logic of the "metal
absorbs taste" argument, it really doesn't seem to make any sense. However,
all I have to do is think back to first visit to Israel back in 86, to be
convinced of the principle. I was on Kibbutz Be'erot Yitzhak, a religious
kibbutz near Petach Tikva and apart from the glories of catching chickens at
dawn, and picking corn in the noon day sun, the kitchens were an eye-opener
too.
The washing up was done by a dish-washing machine which passed baskets of
dirty pots along a conveyer belt under high powered jets of water. There
were different baskets for milk and meat pots and over the years these
baskets, which had initially been the same except for colour, had become
palpably different in appearance and tactility. The meaty baskets were
slightly greasy to the touch, though this could not be perceived by the
naked eye, and the milky baskets had a slight powdery whiteness to them and
slight stickiness. And this was just from the run-off from the soapy hot
water of the dish-washer, so I am quite happy to acknowledge there is a real
issue, despite having a problem with the logic of "taste" part of the
equation.
Fiona
Patty
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
>
> > Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
> > reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> > might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> > or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> > Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> > By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> > foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> Health and safety! She's kidding right?
>
> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a hechsher
> it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on dangerous -
> particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on buying with a
> hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of kosher food has way
> too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making
> MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
>
> already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a very
> few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some pre-packed
> frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
> franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
> awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
> too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply hospitals
> and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
> vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
>
> and sodas anyway...
>
That's not just kosher pre-made meals,that's all pre-made meals except
for the very few that are marked low-whatever. And of those, the
variety is so small that it's just not healthy. It's the only way to
put flavor into shelf-stable food, kosher or not. Even if it is a
drecky flavor like salt.
Cooking from scratch is so much cheaper, so much healthier, and gives
you so much more variety. Been doing it for over 30 years.
And the sodas -- oh yeah, I've been there for years as well, couldn't
agree more. Diet sodas have been related to osteoporosis in teens and
non-diet ones have too much sugar.
Cheers
meir b.
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a hechsher
> it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on dangerous -
> particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on buying with a
> hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of kosher food has way
> too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making
> MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
Do you mean to say that all the national food companies which
decided to have kosher supervision changed their recipes and
formulations? I don't know the situation in England, but in the US
the overwhelming majority of kashruth-supervised products are not made
for the kosher trade. They're made for the general public, but have
decided that it's worth their while to attract the kosher-buying
public as well, but that decision did not entail adding salt, sugar or
preservatives to the amounts already present in their formulations
before going kosher. It may very well be, as you say, that "the vast
majority of kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and
preservatives," but if it is so, it's only because it's true of
processed foods as a whole, kosher or not.
Meir
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
Fiona , try a simple experiment. Slice a raw onion with a knife.
Rinse the knife with cold water and then slice an apple with it. See
if you can taste the onion in the apple.
Don Levey
The right tool for the each job. Some personal kitchens follow this
rule too...
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Don Levey
>
> Fiona , try a simple experiment. Slice a raw onion with a knife.
> Rinse the knife with cold water and then slice an apple with it. See
> if you can taste the onion in the apple.
>
...Though if you wash your dishes with cold water and no soap, onion
flavor is the least of your worries.
Fiona Abrahami
"meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote
"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
==============================================
In that case why would non-Jews believe that kosher products are better for
"quality, health and safety" (the premise of the article Micha posted)? Or
are you saying goyim are stupid?
Here in the UK, where the Jewish population is only around 0.5 million, we
have three major sources or kosher food, UK produced, Israeli and US
produced. There are also lesser imports from the Netherlands anf France.
My first complaint is against UK produced kosher food, which on the whole is
only marketed to the Jewish community, because these products are aimed
solely at Jewish consumers one can conclude they represent Jewish tastes, or
at least the tastes of the majority in the community and they are exactly
as I complained above. So what does that say about the health consciousness
of British Jews?
Few major UK food processors are interested in marketing to the Jewish
community because it is too small, so the extra costs of kosher supervision
are hardly worth it for them. There are a few major manufacturers and retail
chains who put a London Beth Din hechsher on their products, but mostly only
on products that don't need a hechsher in the first place, and therefore
don't need supervision. There is also the issue of the "ancient prejudice,"
here in the Old World anti-Semitism runs deep and a lot of goyim are
actively put off by hechsherim, believing they shouldn't, mustn't or can't
eat "Jewish food" or that simply Jewish food is not for them.
Israeli products are very similar to the British kosher produce, except with
more cultural variety (obviously), in the sense that they are targeting the
Jewish community they too, so logically, they also represent Jewish tastes;
and what do we see in the ingredient lists - yet again, high salt and sugar
content, and an overabundence of e-numbers and preservatives. Yes, this may
be comparable with products in the non-kosher market but that is exactly the
point, there is no point in goyim buying kosher products for supposed
"healthy and safety" benefits... there are none, and if my accusations
against the UK kosher manufacturer's products are true (and I believe they
are) then exactly the opposite is the case - at least here in Britain,
though I suspect in the US and Israel too.
There has been a campaign by the British health authorities running for the
last few years which is trying the encourage food processors and
manufacturers to reduce the salt, sugar and fat contents of their products
and most manufacturers are now gradually reducing these ingredients and
highlighting high salt, sugar and fat contents on their packaging. But the
message seems to have completely bypassed the Jewish community and the
kosher manufacturers.
Fiona
Z
<mi...@aishdas.org> writes
>Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
>reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
>In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
>might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
>-Micha
>
><http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-ko
>sher-for-safety-reasons-says-Mintel>
>or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
>Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
>By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
>Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
>foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
>it to be better quality, in contrast with only 14 percent of consumers
>who said they bought it because they adhere to kosher religious rules,
>the study found.
>
>Senior new product analyst at Mintel Krista Faron told
>FoodNavigator-USA.com: "The presence of the kosher mark itself suggests
>that there is [an inspection] process in place. It is all about consumer
>perception that there is some sort of formalized methodology...My sense
>is that consumers probably couldn't tell us what kosher meant, but the
>kosher mark is reassuring."
>
>After food quality, 'healthfulness' and 'safety' round off the top three
>drivers for kosher food purchases. Faron agreed that kosher food has
>a reputation for being subjected to careful production and inspection
>processes and that this has an effect on kosher sales and new product
>launches.
>...
I quit going to the deli because - apart from fresh and frozen meat - I
used to come back with so much expensive, processed products.
--
Frank
Fiona Abrahami
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote
Sorry Moshe, but that's not the metal absorbing flavour, that's poor
culinary hygiene. How about you try the same experiment using hot water and
soap? Then come back and try to convince me again.
BTW, as I tried to explain in my anecdote above, I accept that there might
be something going on here in the milk/meat separation debate, though
probably at the molecular level, I just need someone with a deeper
understand of metallurgy and/or chemistry to explain to me what it might be.
Obviously, meat and milk are both animal products so logically they contain
mostly the same proteins and acids, and I can logically understand that
these proteins and acids might react with the molecular lattice of a metal
pan (particularly the metals used before stainless steel). I can also
logically accept that such reactions might somehow taint the metal with a
"flavour" which in subsequent usage of the pan and subsequent reactions in
turn taint other food cooked in it. What I don't understand is the chemical
difference between the protein and acid content of dairy and flesh, and how
volatile these proteins and acids might be when in contact with metals at
temperatures between 18 and 200 Celsius.
Bottom line, is there a chemical reaction between the chemical components of
milk or meat, and the metal of kitchen utensils? If so are these reaction
different between the chemicals of dairy and the chemicals of flesh? If
there is no chemical reaction, is it possible for chemical components of
milk and meat to lodge between the molecular lattice of metal?
Any chemists onboard the barque SCJM?
Fiona
Don Levey
> "meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>
> Do you mean to say that all the national food companies which
> decided to have kosher supervision changed their recipes and
> formulations? I don't know the situation in England, but in the US
> the overwhelming majority of kashruth-supervised products are not made
> for the kosher trade. They're made for the general public, but have
> decided that it's worth their while to attract the kosher-buying
> public as well, but that decision did not entail adding salt, sugar or
> preservatives to the amounts already present in their formulations
> before going kosher. It may very well be, as you say, that "the vast
> majority of kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and
> preservatives," but if it is so, it's only because it's true of
> processed foods as a whole, kosher or not.
> ==============================================
>
> In that case why would non-Jews believe that kosher products are better for
> "quality, health and safety" (the premise of the article Micha posted)? Or
> are you saying goyim are stupid?
>
In the US a product that is probably the most visible to the non-Jewish
eye as kosher is Hebrew National Hot Dogs. Their ad campaigns have
stressed the "no scraps and orifices" contents of the hot dogs, with the
justification that while the USDA (US Department of Agriculture, which
has standards for what sort of junk can go into the hot dogs) permits
some of these things, Hebrew National answers to "a higher authority".
They're purposely playing on the image that their product is better and
more wholesome.
Fiona Abrahami
"Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
In this example though, people are not buying HNHD because they are kosher,
they are buying them because of the claims of an ad campaign.
Fiona
Don Levey
> "Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
>
>>>
>> In the US a product that is probably the most visible to the non-Jewish
>> eye as kosher is Hebrew National Hot Dogs. Their ad campaigns have
>> stressed the "no scraps and orifices" contents of the hot dogs, with the
>> justification that while the USDA (US Department of Agriculture, which
>> has standards for what sort of junk can go into the hot dogs) permits
>> some of these things, Hebrew National answers to "a higher authority".
>> They're purposely playing on the image that their product is better and
>> more wholesome.
>
> In this example though, people are not buying HNHD because they are kosher,
> they are buying them because of the claims of an ad campaign.
>
True, at least in the direct sense. The ads, though, create the
impression that *kosher* hot dogs, and by extension other kosher foods,
are healthier because of that "higher authority" mentioned in the ads.
Micha Berger
inspection available for food, beyond the minimal requirements of the
FDA. It's not a matter of whether the food is kosher, it's a matter
of whether the manufacturer is willing to have an outsider look over
his product.
If Underwriter Laboratories would expand their operations from certifying
appliances to also checking food, these people would be just as happy
to buy UL certified products.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Never must we think that the Jewish element
mi...@aishdas.org in us could exist without the human element
http://www.aishdas.org or vice versa.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
cindys
wrote:
snip
>
> I know of a lot of goyim who seek out kosher products.
As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
"goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
rather than simply saying non-Jews.
To use the word "goyim" as part of general conversation is pejorative
(i.e., as opposed to a torah discussion where "goyim" is referring to
nations), and it smacks of arrogance. I don't like when I hear people
in my community do it, and I don't like to see it on SCJM.
It really is *okay* to refer to non-Jews (who in this case haven't
done anything other than buy kosher food) in a respectful manner, and
it doesn't detract from our Jewishness in the least.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Micha Berger
> As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
> "goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
> rather than simply saying non-Jews.
Not to everyone. I had to be told that there are people who perceive
"goyim" as pajorative. And so I stopped using it in public fora (which
I think drifted into my language in general, but I'm not sure.)
People whose English is frequently peppered by terms from Hebrew, Aramaic,
and Yiddish (and I supposed Ladino too, but I can't speak first-hand
about that) aren't switching to another language to be negative when
they say "goyim".
Growing up, "sheigitz" was the pajorative, and "goy" was simply the
antonym of "Jew".
I therefore wouldn't assume when seeing someone write "goy" that they
are trying to be insulting. They could simply not know that there are
people who would take insult.
cindys
snip
>
> Few major UK food processors are interested in marketing to the Jewish
> community because it is too small, so the extra costs of kosher supervision
> are hardly worth it for them. There are a few major manufacturers and retail
> chains who put a London Beth Din hechsher on their products, but mostly only
> on products that don't need a hechsher in the first place, and therefore
> don't need supervision. There is also the issue of the "ancient prejudice,"
> here in the Old World anti-Semitism runs deep and a lot of goyim are
> actively put off by hechsherim, believing they shouldn't, mustn't or can't
> eat "Jewish food" or that simply Jewish food is not for them.
To make an analogy: There is a British woman on another group who has
been complaining bitterly about the prevalence of halal meat in
Britain. Apparently, just as meat from kosher slaughterhouses is
sometimes sold for non-kosher in the USA (because it is from the back
half of the steer or has issues rendering it non-kosher but still
meets government standards), so too, this is apparently happening in
Britain with halal meat. Apparently, it is not unusual for halal meat
to find itself in school cafeterias. This woman was absolutely livid
that her children were being fed halal meat without their knowledge or
that she might go to the supermarket and purchase what she thought was
"regular" (stunned-before-slaughter) meat, when in fact it was halal
meat.
Apparently, she is not the only person who feels this way, as I have
read that Britain is planning to pass a law which makes it mandatory
for all meat sold in the supermarket to be labeled regarding its
source. As she put it, she didn't want to eat any meat or have her
children eat meat that a Muslim had prayed over. There is also the
ongoing perception in Britain (despite the best efforts of Chano, whom
I miss terribly) that shechted (kosher-slaughtered) and halal meat are
cruel methods for slaughter because the animal isn't stunned first.
> There has been a campaign by the British health authorities running for the
> last few years which is trying the encourage food processors and
> manufacturers to reduce the salt, sugar and fat contents of their products
> and most manufacturers are now gradually reducing these ingredients and
> highlighting high salt, sugar and fat contents on their packaging. But the
> message seems to have completely bypassed the Jewish community and the
> kosher manufacturers.
And now I'm going to make a sweeping generalization about the torah-
observant community (which someone will no doubt take me to task for):
It seems to me that the attitudes toward good nutrition are 50 years
behind the times. When my eldest son (who is now 16) started nursery
school, I was horrified to see that most mothers' ideas of what
comprised a good snack was cookies and potato chips. When my kids got
older, I learned it was commonplace for teachers to reward children
for good grades or good behavior with candy and soda pop. I never
bought or allowed my children to have sugar-filled soda pop at home,
so imagine how angry I was when I found out that the rabbi had
provided my son with a big bottle of Coke for doing well on a chumash
test. (After several years of the ba'alei teshuvah mothers making a
fuss, this decreased some). It seemed like every week there was a
siyum (completion) of something, mishnayos or chumash or whatever
which required every child in the class to show up with a bag of candy
to be shared with his classmates. I have noticed a significant
decrease in that (finally!)
But lest I'm seen as slamming only the Orthodox, when my sons were at
the community day school (before the yeshiva ketana was established),
I was appalled at what passed for a healthy lunch: Everything was
fried or laden with cheese (it was a dairy kitchen and children were
not allowed to bring their own lunch). They had chocolate milk and
apple juice every day, and desserts galore! After some of the mothers
took issue with all the desserts, the desserts were limited to twice/
week. One of the FFB mothers (who didn't know I was one of the evil
mothers who had been instrumental in getting rid of all the sweets)
told me she was very upset that the cafeteria had stopped serving
chocolate pudding every day because it was a good source of milk for
her son. I told my younger son (who along with many of the children
was rapidly on his way to become overweight at the time), that I did
not want him to drink chocolate milk at lunch (and to choose the fat-
free white milk instead or to drink water). He opted for the water,
and I was rebuked by the lunch lady and the librarian. It actually
became a major incident! I was told that my son "needed" to have milk.
I told them that only calves *needed* to have milk and that my son
would continue to drink water. They didn't like that answer at all.
When the yeshiva ketanah was established, I begged the principal not
to offer apple juice or chocolate milk as part of the lunch program,
and thankfully, she never did.
Well, so much for my 2 cents worth.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
> > "goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
> > rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>
> Not to everyone. I had to be told that there are people who perceive
> "goyim" as pajorative. And so I stopped using it in public fora (which
> I think drifted into my language in general, but I'm not sure.)
>
> People whose English is frequently peppered by terms from Hebrew, Aramaic,
> and Yiddish (and I supposed Ladino too, but I can't speak first-hand
> about that) aren't switching to another language to be negative when
> they say "goyim".
>
> Growing up, "sheigitz" was the pajorative, and "goy" was simply the
> antonym of "Jew".
>
> I therefore wouldn't assume when seeing someone write "goy" that they
> are trying to be insulting. They could simply not know that there are
> people who would take insult.
Okay...in the interest of dan l'kaf zechus (giving the benefit of the
doubt), some people may not realize they've been insulting. I guess
I've just run into a disproportionate number of ba'alei teshuvah
recently where "goyim" and "schvartzes" are suddenly featured
prominently in their conversation.
I think it's a sad fact of human nature that when people are trying to
identify with a certain group, they will often attempt to adopt the
lingo of that group in order to feel more accepted. It generally
sounds very forced and unnatural. Hence, my comment that being
respectful toward other people doesn't detract from our Jewishness.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
snip
>Apparently, she is not the only person who feels this way, as I have
>read that Britain is planning to pass a law which makes it mandatory
>for all meat sold in the supermarket to be labeled regarding its
>source. As she put it, she didn't want to eat any meat or have her
>children eat meat that a Muslim had prayed over. There is also the
>ongoing perception in Britain (despite the best efforts of Chano, whom
>I miss terribly) that shechted (kosher-slaughtered) and halal meat are
>cruel methods for slaughter because the animal isn't stunned first.
I haven't heard anything abou this proposal recently, so I don't know if it
is going ahead or not, but yeah it was definitely mooted by the
anti-Schechita, pro-animal liberation mob. I think the idea was that as so
many people knee-jerk against hechsherim and such that by labelling meat as
slaughtered for religious purposes this income stream would be closed off to
kosher and halal slaughters making the practice uneconomical. It's possible
that the fear of a violent Muslim backlash scared them off - it seems to
work for everything else.
>> There has been a campaign by the British health authorities running for
>> the
>> last few years which is trying the encourage food processors and
>> manufacturers to reduce the salt, sugar and fat contents of their
>> products
>> and most manufacturers are now gradually reducing these ingredients and
>> highlighting high salt, sugar and fat contents on their packaging. But
>> the
>> message seems to have completely bypassed the Jewish community and the
>> kosher manufacturers.
>
>And now I'm going to make a sweeping generalization about the torah-
>observant community (which someone will no doubt take me to task for):
>It seems to me that the attitudes toward good nutrition are 50 years
>behind the times.
Well I'm not going to be the one to take you to task for this, I agree
wholeheartedly. It's a tragic state of affairs, and to a certain extent (in
my experience) it seems that good nutritional advice is often dismissed as
"goyish nonsense" . Of course that's just an excuse, and those who use that
argument know it, but they're just hooked on junk like the average non-Jews
are. Things are changing in the orthodox world on health issues but it's
slow, and they have far move excuses to rely on that the goyim do -
apparently the use shmaltz is justified by minhag abotheinu b'yaddeinu...
> When my eldest son (who is now 16) started nursery school,
>I was horrified to see that most mothers' ideas of what comprised
>a good snack was cookies and potato chips. When my kids got
>older, I learned it was commonplace for teachers to reward children
>for good grades or good behavior with candy and soda pop. I never
>bought or allowed my children to have sugar-filled soda pop at home,
>so imagine how angry I was when I found out that the rabbi had
>provided my son with a big bottle of Coke for doing well on a chumash
>test. (After several years of the ba'alei teshuvah mothers making a
>fuss, this decreased some). It seemed like every week there was a
>siyum (completion) of something, mishnayos or chumash or whatever
>which required every child in the class to show up with a bag of candy
>to be shared with his classmates. I have noticed a significant
>decrease in that (finally!)
You evil mother! Denying your children a sugar rush sanctioned by holy writ!
Of course, once upon a time, even yeshiva ketana kids had to walk to and
from school, and frequently had to help out with major chores like cleaning
out chicken sheds or drawing water and such once they got home. SUVs,
unfortunately, do not burn the calories off their passengers.
>But lest I'm seen as slamming only the Orthodox, when my sons were at
>the community day school (before the yeshiva ketana was established),
>I was appalled at what passed for a healthy lunch: Everything was
>fried or laden with cheese (it was a dairy kitchen and children were
>not allowed to bring their own lunch). They had chocolate milk and
>apple juice every day, and desserts galore! After some of the mothers
>took issue with all the desserts, the desserts were limited to twice/
>week. One of the FFB mothers (who didn't know I was one of the evil
>mothers who had been instrumental in getting rid of all the sweets)
>told me she was very upset that the cafeteria had stopped serving
>chocolate pudding every day because it was a good source of milk for
>her son.
LOL, even if milk was vital, surely she could just have given him milk
without the chodolate and sugar... duh!
> I told my younger son (who along with many of the children
>was rapidly on his way to become overweight at the time), that I did
>not want him to drink chocolate milk at lunch (and to choose the fat-
>free white milk instead or to drink water). He opted for the water,
>and I was rebuked by the lunch lady and the librarian.
The lunch lady and the librarian, ah, now there's team of medical experts
not to tangle with...
> It actually
>became a major incident! I was told that my son "needed" to have milk.
>I told them that only calves *needed* to have milk and that my son
>would continue to drink water. They didn't like that answer at all.
They wouldn't, it goes against the concensus established by the milk
marketing board. Did you have to pull rank?
>Well, so much for my 2 cents worth.
Actually I make that 10 cents plus tax...
Fiona
cindys
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
> snip
>
> >And now I'm going to make a sweeping generalization about the torah-
> >observant community (which someone will no doubt take me to task for):
> >It seems to me that the attitudes toward good nutrition are 50 years
> >behind the times.
>
> Well I'm not going to be the one to take you to task for this, I agree
> wholeheartedly. It's a tragic state of affairs, and to a certain extent (in
> my experience) it seems that good nutritional advice is often dismissed as
> "goyish nonsense" . Of course that's just an excuse, and those who use that
> argument know it, but they're just hooked on junk like the average non-Jews
> are. Things are changing in the orthodox world on health issues but it's
> slow, and they have far move excuses to rely on that the goyim do -
> apparently the use shmaltz is justified by minhag abotheinu b'yaddeinu...
-------------------
As long as I'm on a roll....Have you heard of this ? I'm assuming it's
Jewish-American cuisine since I've neither seen nor heard of non-
Jewish children eating this (although admittedly I haven't devoted
much time to researching the foods served in non-Jewish families):
It's a dish called "Noodles." What is this? It's simply a dish of
plain pasta (no sauce) with a dollop of ketchup on the side. The first
time I ever saw this was when it was served at a children's birthday
party (as a side dish to pizza). But I subsequently discovered it was
a lunchbox favorite amongst the 2- to 4-year-old set. One time I went
to a shul dinner and was served lasagna with rice as a side dish ????
And apparently pizza with french fries as a side dish has made its way
from Israel to the USA. What's the deal with that?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
snip
>
> It's a dish called "Noodles." What is this? It's simply a dish of
> plain pasta (no sauce) with a dollop of ketchup on the side. The first
> time I ever saw this was when it was served at a children's birthday
> party (as a side dish to pizza). But I subsequently discovered it was
> a lunchbox favorite amongst the 2- to 4-year-old set. One time I went
> to a shul dinner and was served lasagna with rice as a side dish ????
OTOH, the shul had hired the lunch lady from the day school to prepare
the food for the shul dinner, so I don't know why I was so
surprised...
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Don Levey
> As long as I'm on a roll....Have you heard of this ? I'm assuming it's
> Jewish-American cuisine since I've neither seen nor heard of non-
> Jewish children eating this (although admittedly I haven't devoted
> much time to researching the foods served in non-Jewish families):
>
> It's a dish called "Noodles." What is this? It's simply a dish of
> plain pasta (no sauce) with a dollop of ketchup on the side. The first
> time I ever saw this was when it was served at a children's birthday
> party (as a side dish to pizza). But I subsequently discovered it was
> a lunchbox favorite amongst the 2- to 4-year-old set. One time I went
> to a shul dinner and was served lasagna with rice as a side dish ????
> And apparently pizza with french fries as a side dish has made its way
> from Israel to the USA. What's the deal with that?
Pizza with fries has been around for quite a while. "Noodles" are/were
popular when I was a kid in the 1970s, amongst all groups I knew (Jewish
and non). I didn't know that it was coming back in the 2-4 year set;
my kids did enjoy it (but called it "pasta"). Ketchup isn't the
condiment I'm used to associating with noodles, though; it was always
margarine/butter, and nowadays a little parmesan cheese sprinkled over
it.
cindys
> > As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
> > "goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
> > rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>
> Not to everyone. I had to be told that there are people who perceive
> "goyim" as pajorative. And so I stopped using it in public fora (which
> I think drifted into my language in general, but I'm not sure.)
>
> People whose English is frequently peppered by terms from Hebrew, Aramaic,
> and Yiddish (and I supposed Ladino too, but I can't speak first-hand
> about that) aren't switching to another language to be negative when
> they say "goyim".
>
> Growing up, "sheigitz" was the pajorative, and "goy" was simply the
> antonym of "Jew".
>
> I therefore wouldn't assume when seeing someone write "goy" that they
> are trying to be insulting. They could simply not know that there are
> people who would take insult.
Just as another observation (unrelated to public fora): I really think
the use of the word "goyim" presents an obstacle to kiruv that a lot
of FFB Jews may not realize. I have a cousin (secular Jew) who was
invited to an Orthodox home for the seder. Afterward, when I asked her
if she had a good time, she said yes but that she found it very
offensive that the family kept using the word "goyim." I explained to
her what you explained above that the word was simply part of their
language and they really weren't just being a bunch of bigots. I don't
know if she believed me or not, but the point still needs to be
considered. Many, many secular (and some not-so-secular) Jews really
take issue with the word "goyim" when used in the vernacular, and they
do see it as bigotry, and it's a big turnoff.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Susan S
<cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
When I was a child, I remember eating noodles with ketchup at a friend's
house. It was the only place I ever had that dish.
Susan Silberstein
Susan S
<cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
>On Feb 11, 11:36 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <Omega....@gmail.com>
It is not a word I ever use.
Susan Silberstein
meir b.
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
> > "goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
> > rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>
> Not to everyone. I had to be told that there are people who perceive
> "goyim" as pajorative. And so I stopped using it in public fora (which
> I think drifted into my language in general, but I'm not sure.)
>
> People whose English is frequently peppered by terms from Hebrew, Aramaic,
> and Yiddish (and I supposed Ladino too, but I can't speak first-hand
> about that) aren't switching to another language to be negative when
> they say "goyim".
>
> Growing up, "sheigitz" was the pajorative, and "goy" was simply the
> antonym of "Jew".
>
> I therefore wouldn't assume when seeing someone write "goy" that they
> are trying to be insulting. They could simply not know that there are
> people who would take insult.
Until this exchange, I was unaware that "goy" is considered
pejorative. After all, for seventy years I have been blessing G-d
daily "shelo asani goy."
Meir
cindys
snip
>
> When I was a child, I remember eating noodles with ketchup at a friend's
> house. It was the only place I ever had that dish.
>
> Susan Silberstein
Apparently, it has seen a surge in popularity :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Don Levey
I think that this supports rather than undermines Cindy's point:
consider what you're giving thanks FOR.
cindys
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from cindys
I'm sure you don't. Along with the word "shvartze," it has been
officially banned from our home (except when being used as part of a
torah discussion to mean "nations.") Sometimes, dinner guests will use
these words. I don't say anything when they do, but my children know
that I'm cringing inside.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Feb 11, 11:36 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <Omega....@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>snip
>>
>> I know of a lot of goyim who seek out kosher products.
>--------------
>As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
>"goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
>rather than simply saying non-Jews.
When people who know any Yiddish at all use "goyim" it usually isn't
perjorative. But if you tell them it is perjorative, they will think
it is.
When it is perjorative, it's because of the way it is used, not
because of the word itself. You should have heard how my uncle would
use the word "Republican".
Any non-Jew is a goy. Any non-goy is a Jew. It doesn't have a
connotation when I use it. There are far far far more good goyim
than bad goyim or the world would be a far worse place. And many of
my friends and people I don't know but admire are goyim. All of them
are, except the ones who are Jews.
>To use the word "goyim" as part of general conversation is pejorative
You are implicitly claiming that you can read the poster's mind. And
although this particular poster says a lot of things I think are
mistaken, even that doesn't say what he intends with the use of goyim.
Goy and goyim are not even the most common Yiddish words in the speech
of Jews. "Shul" is probably used more than they are, and other words
too depending on what a person most often talks about. Jews use lots
of other Yiddish and Hebrew words.
>(i.e., as opposed to a torah discussion where "goyim" is referring to
>nations),
Well, that's a Hebrew word.
He was using the Yiddish word that means individual members of other
nations. (Although I think that I once came across a use of "goyim"
in Tanach that referred to individuals. I can't find it again. Am I
mistaken, folks? Did I just dream this? Or where I can I find it
again?)
>and it smacks of arrogance. I don't like when I hear people
>in my community do it, and I don't like to see it on SCJM.
I hope you will change your view in both places.
BTW, my mother and probably my father spoke Yiddish and the only time
shikse was used was for young single goyish girls, and the problem
with being a shikse was always that she was dating a Jew. The negative
part was that she was dating a Jew and/or the Jew was considering
dating her. There's nothing wrong with being a gentile, non-Jew, goy,
or shikse if they just wouldn't date Jews.
The same thing was true for shegitz. The only time the word came up
was when a Jewish girl was dating or considering dating or being
pursued by a goyish boy. He could be the finest boy in the world,
Opie Taylor**, John Kennedy or his son John John, and everything would
be fine if he just didn't want to date or even worse, marry, a Jew.
Those were the only time the two words came up, and I don't think they
were used because they are negative but because in dating situations,
it's natural to pick a word that has gender, as shikse and shegitz do
and goy does not.
(**With the yellow press dumping on almost everyone, it's hard to come
up with famous names of people who haven't been dumped on. Or maybe my
memory is fading , but I used to be able to think of more.)
>It really is *okay* to refer to non-Jews (who in this case haven't
>done anything other than buy kosher food) in a respectful manner, and
>it doesn't detract from our Jewishness in the least.
And goyim is not disrespectful. And goyim won't think it is unless
someone tells them it is. Since many Jews will continue to use the
word respectfully, do you really want to be telilng them we mean it
disrespectfully?
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
mm
I don' think that is the best evidence it's not perjorative. On the
surface it seems more like evidence it is.
Also Meir. :)
>Meir
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Feb 12, 3:02 pm, Susan S <otoeremovet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from cindys
>> <cste...@rochester.rr.com>:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Feb 11, 11:36 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <Omega....@gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >snip
>>
>> >> I know of a lot of goyim who seek out kosher products.
>> >--------------
>> >As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
>> >"goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
>> >rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>>
>> >To use the word "goyim" as part of general conversation is pejorative
>> >(i.e., as opposed to a torah discussion where "goyim" is referring to
>> >nations), and it smacks of arrogance. I don't like when I hear people
>> >in my community do it, and I don't like to see it on SCJM.
>>
>> >It really is *okay* to refer to non-Jews (who in this case haven't
>> >done anything other than buy kosher food) in a respectful manner, and
>> >it doesn't detract from our Jewishness in the least.
>>
>> It is not a word I ever use.
Did either of your parents speak Yiddish?
>> Susan Silberstein
>-----------
>I'm sure you don't. Along with the word "shvartze," it has been
>officially banned from our home (except when being used as part of a
>torah discussion to mean "nations.") Sometimes, dinner guests will use
>these words. I don't say anything when they do, but my children know
>that I'm cringing inside.
I hope they learn somewhere (from you?) that it's often not used
negatively. Have they noticed how your dinner guests use it, always
negatively?
I read on the web once someone who thought "Yid" was a perjorative
word. Of course it's not, it's just that he had come across those who
used it like it was.
You should have heard my uncle use the word "Republican". Someone
listening would think it was as bad a curse as any there was.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
Z
<f41807b0-0725-4389...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes
I prefer the work 'yok' when speaking to trash (drugf**kups, alcies,
thieves, women-bashers, chavs etc. about their behaviour.
No one has pulled me up about it.
I'm bigoted though ... against yokkish behaviour.
--
Frank
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from cindys
We had a guy at Hillel when I was a student who ate ketchup with
everything. When he was married, some of the guys gave him a case of
ketchup. What made it worst was that his wife is a very good cook.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> On Feb 11, 2:22 pm, "Fiona Abrahami"
>
>
>
>
>
> <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
>
> > > Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
> > > reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> > > In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> > > might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> > > <http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-...>
> > > or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> > > Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> > > By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> > > Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> > > foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> > Health and safety! She's kidding right?
>
> > In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a hechsher
> > it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on dangerous -
> > particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on buying with a
> > hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of kosher food has way
> > too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making
> > MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
>
> > When I was in hospital a couple of years ago (I probably told this story
> > already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a very
> > few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some pre-packed
> > frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
> > franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
> > awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
> > too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply hospitals
> > and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
> > vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
>
> > Bake your own bread, cook your own fresh vegetables, and lay off the candies
> > and sodas anyway...
>
> > Fiona
>
> That's not just kosher pre-made meals,that's all pre-made meals except
> for the very few that are marked low-whatever. And of those, the
> variety is so small that it's just not healthy. It's the only way to
> put flavor into shelf-stable food, kosher or not. Even if it is a
> drecky flavor like salt.
>
> Cooking from scratch is so much cheaper, so much healthier, and gives
> you so much more variety. Been doing it for over 30 years.
>
> And the sodas -- oh yeah, I've been there for years as well, couldn't
> agree more. Diet sodas have been related to osteoporosis in teens and
> non-diet ones have too much sugar.
>
> Cheers-
That may be one of the big advantages of keeping kosher. It is best
to fix most of your food from raw material. For most Americans too
much food is pre-processed. And fast food is even worst.
As it sets, less than 5% of the kids, Jewish or goyim, can meet
military standards. At least a third are obese (45% of black youth
are obese). It is often due to poor eating habits such as fast food,
pre-processed food and coke. Worst is that the military kicks out 20
to 30% during Basic because their bone density is so low that they
break bones (four last summer at Ft Leonard Wood with broken hips).
Too little exercise and too much cola.
There is a wisdom in being observant.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
Isn't PETA trying to get kosher meat banned not because it is bad but
because the process makes it "scared"? But then we have groups who
are trying to make it illegal to circumcise a baby boy.
Yisroel Markov
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> "Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote
>>
>>>>
>>> In the US a product that is probably the most visible to the non-Jewish
>>> eye as kosher is Hebrew National Hot Dogs. Their ad campaigns have
>>> stressed the "no scraps and orifices" contents of the hot dogs, with the
>>> justification that while the USDA (US Department of Agriculture, which
>>> has standards for what sort of junk can go into the hot dogs) permits
>>> some of these things, Hebrew National answers to "a higher authority".
>>> They're purposely playing on the image that their product is better and
>>> more wholesome.
>>
>> In this example though, people are not buying HNHD because they are kosher,
>> they are buying them because of the claims of an ad campaign.
>>
>
>True, at least in the direct sense. The ads, though, create the
>impression that *kosher* hot dogs, and by extension other kosher foods,
>are healthier because of that "higher authority" mentioned in the ads.
"Healthier" and "better quality" aren't necessarily the same. The
presence of "scraps and orifices" may not detract anything from the
healthiness of the products, but people are often willing to pay more
due to the "yuck factor."
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
cindys
I think I was saying it was pejorative when it was used in the
vernacular.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> "meir b." <meir...@hotmail.com> writes:
> > On Feb 12, 6:25 pm, mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) wrote:
> >> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >> > As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
> >> > "goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
> >> > rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>
> >> Not to everyone. I had to be told that there are people who perceive
> >> "goyim" as pajorative. And so I stopped using it in public fora (which
> >> I think drifted into my language in general, but I'm not sure.)
>
> >> People whose English is frequently peppered by terms from Hebrew, Aramaic,
> >> and Yiddish (and I supposed Ladino too, but I can't speak first-hand
> >> about that) aren't switching to another language to be negative when
> >> they say "goyim".
>
> >> Growing up, "sheigitz" was the pajorative, and "goy" was simply the
> >> antonym of "Jew".
>
> >> I therefore wouldn't assume when seeing someone write "goy" that they
> >> are trying to be insulting. They could simply not know that there are
> >> people who would take insult.
>
> > Until this exchange, I was unaware that "goy" is considered
> > pejorative. After all, for seventy years I have been blessing G-d
> > daily "shelo asani goy."
>
> I think that this supports rather than undermines Cindy's point:
> consider what you're giving thanks FOR.
Well, not really. We say this b'racha because we are thankful for
having been given the yoke of the torah, more opportunities to perform
mitzvos, more opportunities to earn reward, be closer to God, etc.
Although some non-Jews may take offense at the latter point of view,
that wasn't what I was talking about, and I think that was made very
clear. This entire exchange has been about the use of the word "goyim"
in the vernacular, not about saying the word as part of a b'racha, not
about using the word to mean "nations" when we are studying torah. And
I will have to assume that Meir didn't read the majority of my posts
in this thread (that dealt with this topic), because I spelled out
what I meant in at least two other posts before this one.
I often hear the argument that "goyim" is a perfectly legitimate word
meaning "nations," nothing rude or nasty is intended, and ergo...non-
Jews should not be offended when Jews use that expression to refer to
them. But the truth of the matter is that it is frequently used in a
pejorative way and non-Jews do find it offensive when Jews use the
expression *in the vernacular.* Didn't we try to explain to another
poster in another thread that whether or not something is an insult is
not on the basis of the intention of the one who said it but rather
the emotional reaction from the one who heard it?
So, maybe it's not legitimate for non-Jews to find this expression
offensive, but they do. And, as I said, it's a huge turnoff to secular
Jews in the context of attempting kiruv.
A few months back, I was visiting my neighbors. There was a young man
sitting at their table, a college student who was a ba'al teshuva, who
had just eaten shabbos lunch with them. Every other word out of his
mouth was "the goyim this" and "the shvartzes that." (FTR, I've never
heard my neighbors talk this way). Then, he said with a chuckle, "Do
you think I'm a bigot?" like it was a point of amusement. I didn't
respond, but I was thinking to myself, "Yes, I do think you're a
bigot, and I'll bet you didn't use those expressions when you were
secular, but now you're desperately trying to fit in, to join the
club. Well, you're not part of my club. Yuck."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Don Levey
I understand the *purpose* of the blessing.
What is thw meaning of the *words* "shelo asani goy"?
>
> So, maybe it's not legitimate for non-Jews to find this expression
> offensive, but they do. And, as I said, it's a huge turnoff to secular
> Jews in the context of attempting kiruv.
>
It may be an otherwise innocuous term, but given the way in which it
is used I would not be surprised to find non-Jews who feel the expression
is offensive.
mm
I think this means you've been around a lot of people who dislike
gentiles, so when they use a Yiddish word, it sounds perjorative.
OR, you were around a few people like that, and when you heard other
people use the word, you applied your impression of the word to what
they said. You may have thought they meant it perjoratively when they
didn't.
Me, I've been around a lot of people who like goyim, and when they use
the word goyim, it just means non-Jews.
One of our next door neighbors was from England. Every year we would
go by train to visit my grandparents and uncles and aunts and cousins,
before we went back, my mother wrote a letter to Mrs. Lewis and asked
her to buy food for us for when we got back. (This was when
supermarkets were only open from 9 to 5). One year she forgot to list
something, so she wrote on the sealed envelope, "and Cheerios". Mrs.
Lewis bought everything that was on the list, and when she saw my
mother, she said "And cheerio to you too".
This reminds me of her son, about 5 years older than I. When he was
10, he fell of the roof of the Wellers' garage and broke his head.
When I was 5 plus, I used to wonder how someone could live with a
broken head. He was a great boy and I saw him with his family, a
great son.
But later he was about 45, and an architect, when he died. And I had
tears in my eyes when I wrote his mother. I have them now, just
thinking about it. He was a goy, too, and a fine one.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
willis...@live.com
> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> -Micha
>
> <http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-...>
> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> it to be better quality, in contrast with only 14 percent of consumers
> who said they bought it because they adhere to kosher religious rules,
> the study found.
>
> Senior new product analyst at Mintel Krista Faron told
> FoodNavigator-USA.com: "The presence of the kosher mark itself suggests
> that there is [an inspection] process in place. It is all about consumer
> perception that there is some sort of formalized methodology...My sense
> is that consumers probably couldn't tell us what kosher meant, but the
> kosher mark is reassuring."
>
> After food quality, 'healthfulness' and 'safety' round off the top three
> drivers for kosher food purchases. Faron agreed that kosher food has
> a reputation for being subjected to careful production and inspection
> processes and that this has an effect on kosher sales and new product
> launches.
> ...
Some Moslems also buy Kosher products because Kosher requirements are
very similar to the dietary requirements of Islam.(They aren't exactly
the same, but as close as some M oslems can get in their locale)
yevge...@live.com
For the Halibut
Susan S
Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk>:
>
>"meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a
>> hechsher
>> it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on
>> dangerous -
>> particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on buying with a
>> hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of kosher food has
>> way
>> too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making
>> MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
>
> Do you mean to say that all the national food companies which
>decided to have kosher supervision changed their recipes and
>formulations? I don't know the situation in England, but in the US
>the overwhelming majority of kashruth-supervised products are not made
>for the kosher trade. They're made for the general public, but have
>decided that it's worth their while to attract the kosher-buying
>public as well, but that decision did not entail adding salt, sugar or
>preservatives to the amounts already present in their formulations
>before going kosher. It may very well be, as you say, that "the vast
>majority of kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and
>preservatives," but if it is so, it's only because it's true of
>processed foods as a whole, kosher or not.
>==============================================
>
>In that case why would non-Jews believe that kosher products are better for
>"quality, health and safety" (the premise of the article Micha posted)? Or
>are you saying goyim are stupid?
>
>Here in the UK, where the Jewish population is only around 0.5 million, we
>have three major sources or kosher food, UK produced, Israeli and US
>produced. There are also lesser imports from the Netherlands anf France.
>
>My first complaint is against UK produced kosher food, which on the whole is
>only marketed to the Jewish community, because these products are aimed
>solely at Jewish consumers one can conclude they represent Jewish tastes, or
>at least the tastes of the majority in the community and they are exactly
>as I complained above. So what does that say about the health consciousness
>of British Jews?
>
>Few major UK food processors are interested in marketing to the Jewish
>community because it is too small, so the extra costs of kosher supervision
>are hardly worth it for them. There are a few major manufacturers and retail
>chains who put a London Beth Din hechsher on their products, but mostly only
>on products that don't need a hechsher in the first place, and therefore
>don't need supervision. There is also the issue of the "ancient prejudice,"
>here in the Old World anti-Semitism runs deep and a lot of goyim are
>actively put off by hechsherim, believing they shouldn't, mustn't or can't
>eat "Jewish food" or that simply Jewish food is not for them.
>
>Israeli products are very similar to the British kosher produce, except with
>more cultural variety (obviously), in the sense that they are targeting the
>Jewish community they too, so logically, they also represent Jewish tastes;
>and what do we see in the ingredient lists - yet again, high salt and sugar
>content, and an overabundence of e-numbers and preservatives. Yes, this may
>be comparable with products in the non-kosher market but that is exactly the
>point, there is no point in goyim buying kosher products for supposed
>"healthy and safety" benefits... there are none, and if my accusations
>against the UK kosher manufacturer's products are true (and I believe they
>are) then exactly the opposite is the case - at least here in Britain,
>though I suspect in the US and Israel too.
>
>There has been a campaign by the British health authorities running for the
>last few years which is trying the encourage food processors and
>manufacturers to reduce the salt, sugar and fat contents of their products
>and most manufacturers are now gradually reducing these ingredients and
>highlighting high salt, sugar and fat contents on their packaging. But the
>message seems to have completely bypassed the Jewish community and the
>kosher manufacturers.
>
In the U.S. large numbers of foods have hechshers, including healthy
products. True, there are things that I never eat because of the amount
of fat and salt, but I would not eat them regardless of their kosher
status. Every supermarket within a one mile radius of where I live,
which is not in a "Jewish" area has a kosher section, including frozen
meat, usually chicken and turkey. But I could assemble a kosher meal
from products in any part of the store with no trouble.
I know that this situation is not true for all parts of the U.S.; I live
in the fifth largest city in California and I see obviously Orthodox
folks shopping in these stores, but not very often. The food with the
hechshers are national and store brands.
Susan Silberstein
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> On Feb 12, 1:01=A0pm, "Fiona Abrahami">> =A0snip
>>
>
>> >And now I'm going to make a sweeping generalization about the torah-
>> >observant community (which someone will no doubt take me to task for):
>> >It seems to me that the attitudes toward good nutrition are 50 years
>> >behind the times.
>>
>> Well I'm not going to be the one to take you to task for this, I agree
> in
>> my experience) it seems that good nutritional advice is often dismissed a=
> s
>> "goyish nonsense" . Of course that's just an excuse, and those who use th=
> at
>> argument know it, but they're just hooked on junk like the average non-Je=
> ws
>> are. Things are changing in the orthodox world on health issues but it's
>> slow, and they have far move excuses to rely on that the goyim do -
>> apparently the use shmaltz is justified by minhag abotheinu b'yaddeinu...
> -------------------
> As long as I'm on a roll....Have you heard of this ? I'm assuming it's
> Jewish-American cuisine since I've neither seen nor heard of non-
> Jewish children eating this (although admittedly I haven't devoted
> much time to researching the foods served in non-Jewish families):
>
> It's a dish called "Noodles." What is this? It's simply a dish of
> plain pasta (no sauce) with a dollop of ketchup on the side. The first
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> time I ever saw this was when it was served at a children's birthday
> party (as a side dish to pizza). But I subsequently discovered it was
> a lunchbox favorite amongst the 2- to 4-year-old set. One time I went
> to a shul dinner and was served lasagna with rice as a side dish ????
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This reminds me the sound a 500 pound canary makes: CHEAP !!!!
> And apparently pizza with french fries as a side dish has made its way
> from Israel to the USA. What's the deal with that?
Probably a British influence (as in "fish and chips").
Josh
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Susan S
Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk>:
>
>"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>> Tim Meushaw <meus...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> W. Baker <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Many lactose intolerant or milk allergic(not identical) people rely on
>> > parev designation for many baked goods and other foods.
>>
>> I saw something interesting in the store the other week. I forget
>> what the item was, but it was advertised as being Vegan, both in the
>> brand name and in the symbols on the package. Also on the package was
>> an OU(D).
>>
>> (I know that's likely for having been made on dairy equipment, since the
>> OU doesn't distinguish, but if someone's truly keeping vegan, wouldn't
>> that matter to them, as well?)
>------------------
>I think the idea that an aluminum pot can absorb and retain the
>essence of a meat or dairy substance which has been cooked in it
>(despite washing the pot with hot water and soap after use) is kind of
>an observant Jewish thing. Try telling that to a non-Jew (or a secular
>Jew), and he'll tell you you've lost your mind. The only vegetarians
>that I have known who objected to their veggies being cooked in a meat
>pot were observant Jews. To anyone who isn't an observant Jew, if you
>wash a pot, it's clean. Period. The non-Jewish vegans I used to know
>couldn't have cared less about what had previously been in the pot, as
>long as the pot had been washed. Admittedly, this is only anecdotal
>and limited to my own personal experience (which is admittedly rather
>limited).
>=============
>
>Personally, I admit to having a problem accepting the logic of the "metal
>absorbs taste" argument, it really doesn't seem to make any sense. However,
>all I have to do is think back to first visit to Israel back in 86, to be
>convinced of the principle. I was on Kibbutz Be'erot Yitzhak, a religious
>kibbutz near Petach Tikva and apart from the glories of catching chickens at
>dawn, and picking corn in the noon day sun, the kitchens were an eye-opener
>too.
>
>The washing up was done by a dish-washing machine which passed baskets of
>dirty pots along a conveyer belt under high powered jets of water. There
>were different baskets for milk and meat pots and over the years these
>baskets, which had initially been the same except for colour, had become
>palpably different in appearance and tactility. The meaty baskets were
>slightly greasy to the touch, though this could not be perceived by the
>naked eye, and the milky baskets had a slight powdery whiteness to them and
>slight stickiness. And this was just from the run-off from the soapy hot
>water of the dish-washer, so I am quite happy to acknowledge there is a real
>issue, despite having a problem with the logic of "taste" part of the
>equation.
Aluminum does change color if washed in a dishwasher. It has nothing to
do with what was cooked in it, but is because of hard water or the
detergent. Alkaline substances cause the metal to turn dark.
Susan Silberstein
Fiona Abrahami
"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
>
> >And now I'm going to make a sweeping generalization about the torah-
> >observant community (which someone will no doubt take me to task for):
> >It seems to me that the attitudes toward good nutrition are 50 years
> >behind the times.
>
> Well I'm not going to be the one to take you to task for this, I agree
> wholeheartedly. It's a tragic state of affairs, and to a certain extent
> (in
> my experience) it seems that good nutritional advice is often dismissed as
> "goyish nonsense" . Of course that's just an excuse, and those who use
> that
> argument know it, but they're just hooked on junk like the average
> non-Jews
> are. Things are changing in the orthodox world on health issues but it's
> slow, and they have far move excuses to rely on that the goyim do -
> apparently the use shmaltz is justified by minhag abotheinu b'yaddeinu...
-------------------
As long as I'm on a roll....Have you heard of this ? I'm assuming it's
Jewish-American cuisine since I've neither seen nor heard of non-
Jewish children eating this (although admittedly I haven't devoted
much time to researching the foods served in non-Jewish families):
It's a dish called "Noodles." What is this? It's simply a dish of
plain pasta (no sauce) with a dollop of ketchup on the side. The first
time I ever saw this was when it was served at a children's birthday
party (as a side dish to pizza). But I subsequently discovered it was
a lunchbox favorite amongst the 2- to 4-year-old set. One time I went
to a shul dinner and was served lasagna with rice as a side dish ????
And apparently pizza with french fries as a side dish has made its way
from Israel to the USA. What's the deal with that?
================================
Carbs with carbs on the side, mmm mmm...
I've heard of plain pasta with no sauce (though I generally expect it to
have a sprinkling of olive oil instead), but not as the sole component of a
meal.
Fiona
maxine in ri
> On 2009-02-11, Simcha <sim...@jewgle.us> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > But how proudly he shows me his cans and packages with the "U" or
> > whatever the hell the Orthodox Unions current symbol is! What could be
> > more convenient? Simcha
>
> More convenient? Showing you the cans with the Circle-R or Circle-C
> hechsher. One or both of those is on *everything.*
>
> Tim
You should be ashamed of yourself, Tim! You forgot the plain "K"
maxine in ri
Fiona Abrahami
"Susan S" <otoerem...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
People still cook in aluminium in the US?
I don't think they even sell aluminium cooking utensils in this country
anymore, I know I haven't used one since the 80s. Stainless-steel only in my
kitchen.
Fiona
maxine in ri
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
>
>
> >> Here is an amazing study on the topic. I wasn't surprised, since the (U)
> >> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> >> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> >> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> >> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> >> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> >> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> >> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> >> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
>
> > hechsher it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on
> > dangerous - particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on
> > buying with a hechsher is wine, meat and cheese. The vast majority of
> > kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the
> > point of making MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
>
> hechsher have to have a ton of sugar in it??
>
> Fiona
No sugar in matzo<g>
No salt, either.
IF I have to hazard a guess, it's because many of the flavoring agents
used in the treif stuff are treif (Duh!) and kosher alternative are
not available or are too expensive to add to an already more-expensive
product.
Or it could be that the Hungarian and Galitzianers are being catered
to, what with the sweet gefilte fish and the salty.
;-)
maxine in ri
Fiona Abrahami
<willis...@live.com> wrote
>Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>> After food quality, 'healthfulness' and 'safety' round off the top three
>> drivers for kosher food purchases. Faron agreed that kosher food has
>> a reputation for being subjected to careful production and inspection
>> processes and that this has an effect on kosher sales and new product
>> launches.
>
>Some Moslems also buy Kosher products because Kosher requirements are
>very similar to the dietary requirements of Islam.(They aren't exactly
>the same, but as close as some M oslems can get in their locale)
It's because of the similarity on rules, but because Mohammed (Y"S)
permitted his followers to eat "the cleanest of meat" which was understood
at the time to mean kosher meat, that was before he invented halal, which he
copied from the Jews (but as usual, twisted to fit his own desires, so for
example, while the Torah forbids camel, sharia permits it).
Fiona
Tim Meushaw
> It's a dish called "Noodles." What is this? It's simply a dish of
> plain pasta (no sauce) with a dollop of ketchup on the side.
You'll pardon me, I'm gonna go lose my dinner now.
<snip>
> And apparently pizza with french fries as a side dish has made its way
> from Israel to the USA. What's the deal with that?
Maybe that's where my wife got it from. It's a good combo to me.
What bothers me is the stories she told about Israel when she was
there for seminary, where all the cheapo cheap pizza places used
ketchup instead of tomato sauce.
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
mm
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> "meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>
>>
>> Do you mean to say that all the national food companies which
>> decided to have kosher supervision changed their recipes and
>> formulations? I don't know the situation in England, but in the US
>> the overwhelming majority of kashruth-supervised products are not made
>> for the kosher trade. They're made for the general public, but have
>> decided that it's worth their while to attract the kosher-buying
>> public as well, but that decision did not entail adding salt, sugar or
>> preservatives to the amounts already present in their formulations
>> before going kosher. It may very well be, as you say, that "the vast
>> majority of kosher food has way too much salt, e-numbers, and
>> preservatives," but if it is so, it's only because it's true of
>> processed foods as a whole, kosher or not.
>> ==============================================
>>
>> In that case why would non-Jews believe that kosher products are better for
>> "quality, health and safety" (the premise of the article Micha posted)? Or
>> are you saying goyim are stupid?
>>
>In the US a product that is probably the most visible to the non-Jewish
>eye as kosher is Hebrew National Hot Dogs. Their ad campaigns have
>stressed the "no scraps and orifices" contents of the hot dogs, with the
I may not have seen that one, or maybe I just don't remember it,
but they also used to talk about no non-meat fillers and no food
coloring. Admittedly the most common red food coloring is treyf, but
is there no other one? At any rate, not all food coloring is treyf
and non-meat fillers (like bread, or what else might be used?) annoyed
me, decades ago when I still wrote letters, and I wrote them a
tactless letter and they wrote me a letter just as hostile in return.
>justification that while the USDA (US Department of Agriculture, which
>has standards for what sort of junk can go into the hot dogs) permits
>some of these things, Hebrew National answers to "a higher authority".
That's right. Their animation would pan up to heaven when the
narrator said that. I remember that is especially why I didn't like
them citing things that aren't required even of Jews as if G-d
requires them.
>They're purposely playing on the image that their product is better and
>more wholesome.
I think kosher food is. There's an *independent* guy there making
sure they only put in what they say they are putting in. And making
sure what they say they're putting in is acceptable to Jews. He's not
there to find salmonella, and I don't think he can, but he does other
those things.
OT: On Headlines, a few days ago, on the Jay Leno show, he showed a
school lunch calendar, from some school and it showed every day for
the 4 weeks it covered, the meat item on every meal was SPAM. Spam
chile, Spam sandwiches, Toasted Spam, Spam Mexican, Spam Italiano, 20
different presentations of spam. It went by quickly, but think there
were vegetables and desert that varied from day to day.
cindys
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:03:02 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
> >On Feb 11, 11:36 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <Omega....@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >snip
>
> >> I know of a lot of goyim who seek out kosher products.
> >--------------
> >As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
> >"goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
> >rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>
> When people who know any Yiddish at all use "goyim" it usually isn't
> it is.
They already think it is. That's the problem. Just as most black
people nowadays would be offended if you called them "colored." There
is nothing inherently offensive about the word "colored" but it has
come to be offensive when it is used in a certain context.
>
snip
>
> >To use the word "goyim" as part of general conversation is pejorative
>
> You are implicitly claiming that you can read the poster's mind.
No. We've had this conversation before (recently) regarding a
different poster and a different subject. The people who were
participating in that particular thread (and I don't recall if you
were one of them or not) concluded that something is deemed offensive
or insulting on the basis of the emotional reaction of the person who
hears it. The *intention* of the person who says it is irrelevent. I
told the story of the time I was in Alabama and visited the
Confederate White House. When I told some black people about it, they
were offended. I was told it was the equivalent of someone saying to a
Jewish person that he had been to Germany and visited Hitler's summer
home. My intentions were innocent, but it didn't matter. So I didn't
mention the Confederate White House anymore after that.
> And
> although this particular poster says a lot of things I think are
> mistaken, even that doesn't say what he intends with the use of goyim.
It doesn't matter what he intended.
>
> Goy and goyim are not even the most common Yiddish words in the speech
> of Jews. "Shul" is probably used more than they are, and other words
> too depending on what a person most often talks about. Jews use lots
> of other Yiddish and Hebrew words.
Since "shul" is never used in a pejorative way, I don't see how this
is relevant to the discussion at hand.
>
> >(i.e., as opposed to a torah discussion where "goyim" is referring to
> >nations),
>
> Well, that's a Hebrew word.
Yes.
>
> He was using the Yiddish word that means individual members of other
> nations. (Although I think that I once came across a use of "goyim"
> in Tanach that referred to individuals. I can't find it again. Am I
> mistaken, folks? Did I just dream this? Or where I can I find it
> again?)
It doesn't matter if it's Hebrew or Yiddish or if it means individuals
or other nations. And it doesn't matter if it's in the torah/tanach or
not. IN THE VERNACULAR, it is perceived by non-Jews as being
pejorative and many times it is. And not because I just told them so
in this thread.
>
> >and it smacks of arrogance. I don't like when I hear people
> >in my community do it, and I don't like to see it on SCJM.
>
> I hope you will change your view in both places.
Why? So, I can agree that it's okay to use expressions which I know
will offend some people?
>
> BTW, my mother and probably my father spoke Yiddish and the only time
> shikse was used was for young single goyish girls, and the problem
> with being a shikse was always that she was dating a Jew. The negative
> part was that she was dating a Jew and/or the Jew was considering
> dating her. There's nothing wrong with being a gentile, non-Jew, goy,
> or shikse if they just wouldn't date Jews.
Using the words shikse and shagetz to refer to non-Jews is pejorative
in any context. It is not the same as saying goyim.
>
> The same thing was true for shegitz. The only time the word came up
> was when a Jewish girl was dating or considering dating or being
> pursued by a goyish boy. He could be the finest boy in the world,
> Opie Taylor**, John Kennedy or his son John John, and everything would
> be fine if he just didn't want to date or even worse, marry, a Jew.
>
> Those were the only time the two words came up, and I don't think they
> were used because they are negative but because in dating situations,
> it's natural to pick a word that has gender, as shikse and shegitz do
> and goy does not.
Do you know what shagitz and shikse mean? Insect/abomination. The only
instance of these words that is not pejorative is when we are
discussing (from a halachic perspective) which shkutzim convey tumah
(ritual impurity) and which ones don't.
>
> (**With the yellow press dumping on almost everyone, it's hard to come
> up with famous names of people who haven't been dumped on. Or maybe my
> memory is fading , but I used to be able to think of more.)
>
> >It really is *okay* to refer to non-Jews (who in this case haven't
> >done anything other than buy kosher food) in a respectful manner, and
> >it doesn't detract from our Jewishness in the least.
>
> And goyim is not disrespectful. And goyim won't think it is unless
> someone tells them it is.
They already know it is, and even if it's not, they think it is, and
they are offended.
>Since many Jews will continue to use the
> word respectfully, do you really want to be telling them we mean it
> disrespectfully?
>
I don't need to tell them. They already know.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
wrote:
> > marketing board. Did you have to pull rank?
>
> > >Well, so much for my 2 cents worth.
>
> > Actually I make that 10 cents plus tax...
>
> > Fiona
>
> Isn't PETA trying to get kosher meat banned not because it is bad but
> because the process makes it "scared"?
PETA is a militant vegan organization, which is also often
antisemitic.They want to ban any type of meat-eating, kosher or not,
but they do seem to target Jews. When the Palestinians sent a donkey
across the Israeli border as a suicide bomber, laden with explosives
to kill Israelis, the PETA people complained because the donkey was
killed. PETA doesn't believe in using any animal products at all,
including no milk, no eggs, no wool, and no honey. They refer to the
use of such products as "exploitation." They are also the group that
"liberates" animals from medical laboratory facilities and sprays red
paint on women wearing fur coats.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fiona Abrahami
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
=============================================
The Army of the 12 Monkeys :-)
cindys
snip
>
> I understand the *purpose* of the blessing.
>
---------------
"Who didn't make me a non-Jew."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
maxine in ri
> On Feb 12, 1:01 pm, "Fiona Abrahami"
>
>
>
> <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>
> > snip
>
> > >observant community (which someone will no doubt take me to task for):
> > >It seems to me that the attitudes toward good nutrition are 50 years
> > >behind the times.
>
> > Well I'm not going to be the one to take you to task for this, I agree
> > wholeheartedly. It's a tragic state of affairs, and to a certain extent (in
> > my experience) it seems that good nutritional advice is often dismissed as
> > "goyish nonsense" . Of course that's just an excuse, and those who use that
> > argument know it, but they're just hooked on junk like the average non-Jews
> > are. Things are changing in the orthodox world on health issues but it's
> > slow, and they have far move excuses to rely on that the goyim do -
> > apparently the use shmaltz is justified by minhag abotheinu b'yaddeinu...
>
> As long as I'm on a roll....Have you heard of this ? I'm assuming it's
> Jewish-American cuisine since I've neither seen nor heard of non-
> Jewish children eating this (although admittedly I haven't devoted
> much time to researching the foods served in non-Jewish families):
>
> time I ever saw this was when it was served at a children's birthday
> party (as a side dish to pizza). But I subsequently discovered it was
> a lunchbox favorite amongst the 2- to 4-year-old set. One time I went
> to a shul dinner and was served lasagna with rice as a side dish ????
> from Israel to the USA. What's the deal with that?
> ---Cindy S.
Actually, that was what passed for spaghetti and sauce at one time.
To get more into that would be to veer off the topic of kashrut and
into the kinds of myths that are passed down to parents from
generation to generation. Someone tells them that little kids are
picky. They give them only foods that the kids will eat willingly.
The kids are never exposed to anything else, and get into the comfort
food attitude and won't eat anything else.
I mean, kids in Israel go crazy for Bamba, a styrofoam peanut snack.
We tried serving it to the kids at the Hebrew school once, and didn't
bother again, since most of the kids spat it out.
French fries and pizza is a common after-school snack in my area, I'm
ashamed to say. Mostly with the teenaged crowd. Luckily, my daughter
hates both those foods.<G>
maxine in ri
maxine in ri
> On 2009-02-11, Fiona Abrahami <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote
> >> reported a similar finding over a decade ago.
>
> >> In addition to your own edification, someone with a stomach for scj
> >> might wish to share this with the "kosher tax" crowd.
>
> >> <http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Financial-Industry/Consumers-choose-...>
> >> or <http://kitzur.com/kltb>
>
> >> Consumers choose kosher for safety reasons, says Mintel
> >> By Caroline Scott-Thomas, 10-Feb-2009
>
> >> Food quality, health and safety are the main reasons people buy kosher
> >> foods -- not for religious reasons, according to a new study from Mintel.
>
> > Health and safety! She's kidding right?
>
> > In my experience (which, like my waistline, is vast) if it's got a hechsher
> > it is more or less guaranteed to be un-healthy and bordering on dangerous -
> > particularly anything processed. The only food I insist on buying with a
> > too much salt, e-numbers, and preservatives. To the point of making
> > MacDonald's look healthy! It's junk!
>
> public has the impression that because a rabbi has to check all the
> ingredients, they won't be putting in anything he doesn't understand.
> Plus, the rabbi answers to God, and he wouldn't lie about what's in
> there, would he? Unlike a corporation who could put anything on the
> label and no one in the public would be the wiser.
>
> Never mind the fact that one package contains 2000% of your sodium
> intake for the day....
>
> > When I was in hospital a couple of years ago (I probably told this story
> > already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a very
> > few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some pre-packed
> > frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
> > franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
> > awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
> > too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply hospitals
> > and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
> > vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
>
>
> > Bake your own bread, cook your own fresh vegetables, and lay off the candies
> > and sodas anyway...
>
> it didn't have corn syrup. I've still got quite a few, since I forgot
> I don't drink soda....
>
> Tim
I buy a bottle of it each year for my seder guests. If I forget to
send it home with them, it sits there until Shavouot when I toss it.
maxine in ri
Susan S
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com>:
>On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:28:01 +0000 (UTC), cindys
><cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 12, 3:02 pm, Susan S <otoeremovet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from cindys
>>> <cste...@rochester.rr.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >On Feb 11, 11:36 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <Omega....@gmail.com>
>>> >wrote:
>>> >snip
>>>
>>> >> I know of a lot of goyim who seek out kosher products.
>>> >--------------
>>> >As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
>>> >"goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
>>> >rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>>>
>>> >To use the word "goyim" as part of general conversation is pejorative
>>> >(i.e., as opposed to a torah discussion where "goyim" is referring to
>>> >nations), and it smacks of arrogance. I don't like when I hear people
>>> >in my community do it, and I don't like to see it on SCJM.
>>>
>>> >It really is *okay* to refer to non-Jews (who in this case haven't
>>> >done anything other than buy kosher food) in a respectful manner, and
>>> >it doesn't detract from our Jewishness in the least.
>>>
>>> It is not a word I ever use.
>
>Did either of your parents speak Yiddish?
>
Yes and so did all my grandparents. I speak English and don't say goyim
or schvartze. My mother is still alive and I don't hear her say either
of those. But I don't use words in English to describe groups of people
when those words are usually employed negatively.
[snip]
Susan Silberstein
mm
People should remember this when antisemites claim that Jews control
the world. Tell them that the Galitzianers control the world.
>maxine in ri
cindys
> On 2009-02-12, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > It's a dish called "Noodles." What is this? It's simply a dish of
> > plain pasta (no sauce) with a dollop of ketchup on the side.
>
> You'll pardon me, I'm gonna go lose my dinner now.
And it hasn't been too many years since my younger son was begging me
to pack "noodles" in his lunch box (since all of his friends' mothers
seemed to think it was a good lunch). Another favorite is/was
"Tradition" instant soup. (Add hot water to a large styrofoam cup
containing a bunch of dried noodles, three or four dried peas, and
"seasonings." Let it sit for three minutes and then voila! "noodles"
sitting in so much salty broth that your clothes will be tight for
days from water retention). At any rate, I told my son that in our
family, "noodles" was a side dish, and the only carbs he would be
finding in his lunchbox would be the bread on his turkey sandwich.
>
> <snip>
>
> > And apparently pizza with french fries as a side dish has made its way
> > from Israel to the USA. What's the deal with that?
>
> Maybe that's where my wife got it from. It's a good combo to me.
> What bothers me is the stories she told about Israel when she was
> there for seminary, where all the cheapo cheap pizza places used
> ketchup instead of tomato sauce.
When I was growing up (in America), pizza didn't require a side dish,
although sometimes people did have a salad with it. French fries went
with hamburgers. And "noodles" were generally accompanied by meat and
tomato sauce. I have a sneaking suspicion that non-Jews still do it
that way :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Harry Weiss
> When I was in hospital a couple of years ago (I probably told this story
> already, but...) they had to ship in kosher meals for me as I am one a very
> few Jews in my local hospital's catchment area, and they got some pre-packed
> frozen dinners from the company who seems to get most of these types of
> franchises in the UK (Hermolis, for the Brits reading this). They were
> awful, absolute drek! So salty I couldn't eat it, and this in a hospital
> too, and provided by a company who boasts of their deals to supply hospitals
> and such. Honestly, if I'm ever in hospital again, I will eat the treif
> vegetarian option; so as to come out healthier than I went in.
And for airline type food (what remains of that) Hermolis had reputation
as the best kosher ones.
> Bake your own bread, cook your own fresh vegetables, and lay off the candies
> and sodas anyway...
> Fiona
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
cindys
snip
>
>
> When people who know any Yiddish at all use "goyim" it usually isn't
> perjorative.
------------
AFAIK, "goyim" is (only) a Hebrew word. If someone who is speaking
Yiddish incorporates the word "goyim" into the conversation, it is
still a Hebrew word. People frequently incorporate the word into
English conversation as well, but it doesn't turn into an English
word.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
mm
<otoerem...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>In the U.S. large numbers of foods have hechshers, including healthy
>products.
I don't know if organic foods are really healthy or not, but they are
very likely to have hechshers. I doubt they require much inspection,
and the makers are, I would guess, trying to establish some symbiosis
between those who want organic and those who want kosher.
>
>Susan Silberstein
mm
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Carbs with carbs on the side, mmm mmm...
You called?
I don't think it's a good idea either.
mm
DoD
> The Army of the 12 Monkeys :-)
I don't get the reference... :o(
David
mm
<otoerem...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>When I was a child, I remember eating noodles with ketchup at a friend's
>house. It was the only place I ever had that dish.
When I had pneumonia, my mother was going to make me spaghetti, as a
treat. A few minutes later she came in my bedroom to report that she
had no spaghetti sauce. A few minutes after that she came in to
report that she had no grated cheese.
So I ate spaghetti with ketchup. My mother was dismayed, but would
never go to the store for just a couple things**, and wouldn't leave
me alone with pneumonia anyhow.
**Her mother sent her to the store over and over again for just one or
two things and she hated it. Plus when she was a child it was just a
block or two, and now it was at least 2 miles.
>Susan Silberstein
maxine in ri
wrote:
> On Feb 12, 1:01 pm, "Fiona Abrahami"
> > >observant community (which someone will no doubt take me to task for):
> > >It seems to me that the attitudes toward good nutrition are 50 years
> > >behind the times.
>
> > Well I'm not going to be the one to take you to task for this, I agree
> > wholeheartedly. It's a tragic state of affairs, and to a certain extent (in
> > my experience) it seems that good nutritional advice is often dismissed as
> > "goyish nonsense" . Of course that's just an excuse, and those who use that
> > argument know it, but they're just hooked on junk like the average non-Jews
> > are. Things are changing in the orthodox world on health issues but it's
> > slow, and they have far move excuses to rely on that the goyim do -
> > apparently the use shmaltz is justified by minhag abotheinu b'yaddeinu...
>
> > marketing board. Did you have to pull rank?
>
> > >Well, so much for my 2 cents worth.
>
> > Actually I make that 10 cents plus tax...
>
> > Fiona
>
> are trying to make it illegal to circumcise a baby boy.
Peta would like to see all meat banned, but they go after kosher
slaughter because we don't stun the animal first. That and the
pictures they got from inside Rubashkin's in Iowa.
The anti-circ crowd are even infecting some Jews. I can't wait until
those kids grow up and find out that the rest of the Jewish community
will tell them they still need to have a bris. That happened to a
couple of kids at my daughter's Hebrew school. Dad was non-jew and
non-circ, and so the boys never were. When it came time for their bar
mitzva, they were in for a very rude surprize. Must have gone through
with it, since they did have their aliyot.
maxine in ri
Fiona Abrahami
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote
>"Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> The Army of the 12 Monkeys :-)
>
>I don't get the reference... :o(
Don't worry. 12 Monkeys is a Terry Gilliam film staring Bruce Willis and
Brad Pitt. Not Jewish in way, shape or form, so I won't expand. But remember
kids: Google is your friend...
Fiona
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "Fiona Abrahami"
<fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> in
<ST2ll.31184$aJ3....@newsfe23.ams2> wrote:
[snip]
>People still cook in aluminium in the US?
>
>I don't think they even sell aluminium cooking utensils in this country
>anymore, I know I haven't used one since the 80s. Stainless-steel only in my
>kitchen.
Anodized aluminum is very popular. And I think that my stovetop
"espresso" coffee machine is aluminum.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
DoD
> In article
> <f41807b0-0725-4389-9511-cf31e9cac...@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Feb 12, 11:25 am, mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) wrote:
> >> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >> > As I've said before, I don't understand the need to use the word
> >> > "goyim," which is unnecessarily pejorative in a context such as this,
> >> > rather than simply saying non-Jews.
>
> >> "goyim" as pajorative. And so I stopped using it in public fora (which
> >> I think drifted into my language in general, but I'm not sure.)
>
> >> People whose English is frequently peppered by terms from Hebrew, Aramaic,
> >> and Yiddish (and I supposed Ladino too, but I can't speak first-hand
> >> about that) aren't switching to another language to be negative when
> >> they say "goyim".
>
> >> Growing up, "sheigitz" was the pajorative, and "goy" was simply the
> >> antonym of "Jew".
>
> >> I therefore wouldn't assume when seeing someone write "goy" that they
> >> are trying to be insulting. They could simply not know that there are
> >> people who would take insult.
> >----------
> >Just as another observation (unrelated to public fora): I really think
> >the use of the word "goyim" presents an obstacle to kiruv that a lot
> >of FFB Jews may not realize. I have a cousin (secular Jew) who was
> >invited to an Orthodox home for the seder. Afterward, when I asked her
> >if she had a good time, she said yes but that she found it very
> >offensive that the family kept using the word "goyim." I explained to
> >her what you explained above that the word was simply part of their
> >language and they really weren't just being a bunch of bigots. I don't
> >know if she believed me or not, but the point still needs to be
> >considered. Many, many secular (and some not-so-secular) Jews really
> >take issue with the word "goyim" when used in the vernacular, and they
> >do see it as bigotry, and it's a big turnoff.
> >Best regards,
> >---Cindy S.
>
> I prefer the work 'yok' when speaking to trash (drugf**kups, alcies,
> thieves, women-bashers, chavs etc. about their behaviour.
> No one has pulled me up about it.
> I'm bigoted though ... against yokkish behaviour.
Henry, Is this British slang, like "yob/yobbo"? All the sudden, I feel
for you
being on the other end, not knowing the meaning of slang words. (I
hope these are
not Jewish words, which I would feel real foolish, altogether).
David