Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
mm
>
>My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
>where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
I have a feeling the meaning has been distorted in the last generation
or more.
My understanding of shmuck is another word for someone who gets the
short end of the stick, gets taken advantage of, or something like
that. Like Jackie Gleason's "Poor Soul".
But Jews who barely know Yiddish and gentiles who know even less seem
to have little imagination when it comes to derogatory words and a
limited "vocabulary" of ideas, and use it now with the meaning of a
contemptible person, along with some other words that mean the same
thing to them.
Is this an authentic meaning of the word, or is my understanding the
correct one?
**I don't see any point to including the German c in transliterations
of Yiddish words which are spelled with a shin and nothing related to
a c. Frankly, anything german annoys me, but especially in
transliterating words that are spelled with a shin.
Compare with Jewish names in Latin characters ending in Y versus
Polish names ending in I, which is the case most of the time. I
don't know, but I'm thinking the difference is that most Jewish names
were transliterated from Yiddish, where a yud was used for the final
ee sound**, so Jews used a Y on the ends of their name. I don't even
know what alphabet Polish uses, but either it has an I and uses the I
there, or it has something else that gets transliterated with an I.
Jews in Poland didn't say, Heck, if I were writing my name in Polish
I'd use an I or whatever Polish uses, so when I get to America I'll
use an I there too. They used a Y, because that's how yud would be
transliterated there. .
**As in Warshawsky, Reznitsky, Barrizitzky (my grandmother)***
versus Bryzinzki, Kowlkowski,
***Strangely, I remember my grandmother also having an anglicized last
name Bessie Barrett, but she was married in Europe, before my
grandfather left for England. Did she have to use her maiden name so
often that she had an anglicized version too?
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
Henry Goodman
news:e7c74ae5-70c8-4e04...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Polish is unique among the Slavic languages in that it uses
the Latin Alphabet instead of Cyrillic like the Russians and Czechs
use.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been to Prague 3 times and I can assure you that the Czechs use the
latin alphabet.
The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know what the
Americans say.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
sheldonlg
"mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:97ef569njbvh3toqb...@4ax.com...
> Lee said
>
>>
>>My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
>>where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
>
> Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
>
> I have a feeling the meaning has been distorted in the last generation
> or more.
>
> My understanding of shmuck is another word for someone who gets the
> short end of the stick, gets taken advantage of, or something like
> that. Like Jackie Gleason's "Poor Soul".
Isn't that "shmendrick" or "shlmazel"? (*) Shmuck is the one who spills the
soup on him, not the one who has the soup spilled on him.
(*) I don't speak Yiddish.
sheldonlg
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:i38m31$prm$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
Same thing in both senses of the word.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
How the word is used is different than what it means, literally. The
word shmuck means "useless ornament" in Yiddish. In German it is used
as a word for ornamental jewerly. Having learned the word in the US
then seeing it on the side of a buses advertising jewerly (in
Germany), was amusing to say the least.
In the US it has come to mean "prick", to describe a person as
sexually weak and a jerk.
Joe Bruno
> "Joe Bruno" <joebr...@indystart.com> wrote in message
> I have been to Prague 3 times and I can assure you that the Czechs use the
> latin alphabet.
> The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know what the
> Americans say.
>
> --
> Henry Goodman
>
> - Show quoted text -
In America, prick means asshole, a mean nasty person.Schmuck means
something very different.It means a fool or someone easily taken
advantage of.
Joe Bruno
> I have been to Prague 3 times and I can assure you that the Czechs use the
> latin alphabet.
> The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know what the
> Americans say.
>
> --
> Henry Goodman
>
> - Show quoted text -
I was thinking of the Serbs:
Cyrillic was made the Official script of Serbia's administration by
the 2006 Constitution[9].
Henry Goodman
______________________________________________________________
I knew that. My point is that Polish is not unique among the Slav languages
in being written in Latin characters.
Steve Goldfarb
>The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know what the
>Americans say.
I'm not sure there is an exact English translation, which is why people
speaking English use the word "schmuck" to describe a particular type of
person. (even though schmuck and prick refer to the same body part)
My sense of the terms, which could be wrong, is that while both the prick
and the shmuck are obnoxious, the prick was more intentional in his
behavior and more likely to be specifically targeting someone else, while
the schmuck might be someone who just ought to know better but doesn't. A
prick isn't a fool, but a schmuck might be.
Someone who takes advantage of someone else's weaknesses could be a prick,
but wouldn't likely be called a schmuck. Someone who gets taken advantage
of himself could be a schmuck, especially if he got taken advantage of due
to his own obnoxiousness, but wouldn't likely be called a prick.
Yeah.... like I say maybe my usage isn't accurate, but if I were to call
someone a schmuck, I'd probably be saying that he got taken advantage of
and he deserved it. Or, he's the sort of person who deserves to be knocked
down a peg or two because of his behavior.
"Did you hear Joe and Tom went at it at the meeting? Yeah - Joe's a real
prick, but Tom can be such a schmuck sometimes that I've wanted to smack
him myself"
Just remembered an old MAD comic (might have been Al Jaffee) in which a
guy gets three wishes from a genie, and wishes for gold and jewels and
such, in cash, right now - and of course gets buried beneath the pile of
stuff. The genie says "Schmuck, you couldn't take a check?"
--s
--
Joe Bruno
According to a Linguist I know, the Poles and Czechs at one time used
Cyrillic, but the Catholic church when it converted many of them, made
the change from Cyrillic to Latin script.
Asher N
> On Aug 3, 2:04 am, "Henry Goodman" <henry.good...@virgin.net> wrote:
>> "Joe Bruno" <joebr...@indystart.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:e7c74ae5-70c8-4e04...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com
Must be localize to where you live because I've always heard schmuck used
to mean asshole.
Shlemiel is used to convey the meaning of someone easily taken advantage
of.
sheldonlg
"Asher N" <compg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9DC9A0B093A7...@69.31.43.202...
I have understood it to mean:
shmuck: A not nice person but not quite as bad as a prick -- but close
shlemeil: A stupid person who just doesn't know the way of the world, but
not of bad character.
shlmazel: The guy who seems to be the one to whom back things seem to
happen.
"He's a smuck" is usually said with an angry tone. There is an implied
exclamation point with it.
"He's a shlemiel" is usally said with a "what a pity", or a "what can you
do?" tone.
Joe Bruno
Really? I live in San Diego and movies made about gangsters in New
York City use schmuck to mean a sucker. See the movie "Goodfellas".
>
> Shlemiel is used to convey the meaning of someone easily taken advantage
And because that one word means that, you automatically assume there
are no other words in Yiddish that mean the same thing?HMMM!
In English, the following all have similar meanings
fool
sucker
dope
fish
As do the following
gullible
naive
impressionable
mm
Why you say "I've always..." your age becomes relevant.
This was my very point. That I think the word is used in the last 30
years with a new meaning, much harsher than the original, by people
who didn't learn the word from their Yiddish-speaking fathers, but
from people who guessed at the meaning of the word, and might not have
had enough imagination to come up with what it really meant. Since
in most cases, either meaning would make sense.
>
>Shlemiel is used to convey the meaning of someone easily taken advantage
>of.
But there can be one more word that means the same thing, or almost
the same thing.
I should have asked how old each person who posts is, and I should
have asked how much Yiddish they know and where they learned it,
becuause some people have replied who didn't reply to Joe's earlier
thread about Yiddish (and even if they did, it's hard for me to
remember.)
General Schvantzkoph
> In America, prick means asshole, a mean nasty person.Schmuck means
> something very different.It means a fool or someone easily taken
> advantage of.
It can mean either. When you call someone a dumb schmuck you are
commenting on his intelligence not his character. If you called someone a
miserable schmuck you would mean it in the same sense as prick or asshole.
The movie Dinner for Schmucks (the worst movie of the year according to
the WSJ) uses it in the fool sense. The original French movie, Le Diner
de Cons, meant Dinner for Idiots. The French word Con is very similar to
Schmuck in that it has a variety of rude or derogatory meanings. Con can
mean prick, cunt, asshole or idiot. The expression espece de con means
species of asshole, I like that insult. What's the Yiddish word for
species?
lee
My understanding is that it is a coarse/vulgar for penis, & for
someone who is a dick or dickhead, or an unfortunate, kinda like an
undeserving nebbisher.
Abe Kohen
>
>>
>>My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
>>where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
>
> Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
You of all people should really know.
Shmuckler is a jeweler.
Schmuck is then a jewel. Perhaps a family jewel.
The derivation is from the German.
Tuchus, OTOH, is from the Hebrew tachat. Hebrew has NO dirty words, and
tachat is not a dirty word. (Ayin tachat ayin.)
Abe
Amitai
> "mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>
> news:97ef569njbvh3toqb...@4ax.com...
>
> > Lee said
>
> >>My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
> >>where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
>
> > Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
>
> You of all people should really know.
>
> Shmuckler is a jeweler.
>
> Schmuck is then a jewel. Perhaps a family jewel.
>
jewels, it is not one of them.
> The derivation is from the German.
>
> Tuchus, OTOH, is from the Hebrew tachat. Hebrew has NO dirty words, and
> tachat is not a dirty word. (Ayin tachat ayin.)
>
I agree that there aren't many, but your NO is too sweeping. Even in
theTanakh several had to be euphemized ("ktiv-qri"). See e.g., 2 Kings
18:27.
--
Amitai
> Abe
Yisroel Markov
<joeb...@indystart.com> said:
>On Aug 3, 2:04 am, "Henry Goodman" <henry.good...@virgin.net> wrote:
>> "Joe Bruno" <joebr...@indystart.com> wrote in message
[snip]
>> I have been to Prague 3 times and I can assure you that the Czechs use the
>> latin alphabet.
>> The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know what the
>> Americans say.
>>
>> --
>> Henry Goodman
>> henry dot goodman at virgin dot net- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>In America, prick means asshole, a mean nasty person.Schmuck means
>something very different.It means a fool or someone easily taken
>advantage of.
Only in American can a word meaning "penis" map to a word meaning
"anus"! :-)
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Steve Goldfarb
>Shmuckler is a jeweler.
>Schmuck is then a jewel. Perhaps a family jewel.
>The derivation is from the German.
That's what I thought too, but Professor Wikipedia claims that's not the
case, that it's essentially a coincidence and the real etymology is
uncertain.
--s
>Tuchus, OTOH, is from the Hebrew tachat. Hebrew has NO dirty words, and
>tachat is not a dirty word. (Ayin tachat ayin.)
>Abe
--
Fattush
> Lee said
>
>
>
> >My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
> >where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
>
> Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
>
> I have a feeling the meaning has been distorted in the last generation
> or more.
I understand that a "schmuck" is someone who is a total idiot, a
klutzy fool. It also can be used to refer to a certain male body part.
Fattush
>
> > Polish is unique among the Slavic languages in that it uses
> > the Latin Alphabet instead of Cyrillic like the Russians and Czechs
> > use.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I have been to Prague 3 times and I can assure you that the Czechs use the
> > latin alphabet.
> > The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know what the
> > Americans say.
>
> > --
> > Henry Goodman
> > henry dot goodman at virgin dot net- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> In America, prick means asshole, a mean nasty person.Schmuck means
> something very different.It means a fool or someone easily taken
> advantage of.-
Yes. "Schmuck" means a fool and a penis. AFAIK it does not mean a
nasty person.
Asher N
news:99a72d1d-9b20-49c8...@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
Sounds more and more that we have a word with no real definition that
means what the speaker wants it to mean depending on context.
Shmendrik
> "mm" <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>
> news:97ef569njbvh3toqb...@4ax.com...
>
> > Lee said
>
> >>My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
> >>where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
>
> > Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
>
> You of all people should really know.
>
> Shmuckler is a jeweler.
>
> Schmuck is then a jewel. Perhaps a family jewel.
lol
>
> The derivation is from the German.
Some sources put it at the Old Polish "smok" and Yiddish, meaning
"foreskin" according to these . . .
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Schmuck
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schmuck
Hence "useless ornament" as per the post of . . .
On Aug 3, 6:27 am, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> wrote:
> How the word is used is different than what it means, literally. The
> word shmuck means "useless ornament" in Yiddish. In German it is used
> as a word for ornamental jewerly.
Seems to me I once heard Lenny Bruce describe a *schmuck* as "a
stuffed suit". A man who is all brass with no class.
--
S.
Avrum Lapin
<ec284361-b471-4a59...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
Fattush <fatt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I was going to do a D'Var Torah entitled "Ruben (Jacob's eldest son) -
Schmuck or Schlemeil" but as I looked deeper into the accepted
definitions I decided that that was an unsuitable title.
W. Baker
: >>>
: >>> > Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
: >>> The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know
: >>> what t
: >> he
: >>> Americans say.
: >>>
: >>> --
: >>> Henry Goodman
: >>> henry dot goodman at virgin dot net- Hide quoted text -
: >>>
: >>> - Show quoted text -
: >>
: >> In America, prick means asshole, a mean nasty person.Schmuck means
: >> something very different.It means a fool or someone easily taken
: >> advantage of.
In Yiddish Henry is corect. It is an anatomical term tht only applies to
males.
The best definition of schlemeil and shlemazel I have heard is the
schlemmeil is the guy who embarrassingly spills he coffee. The schlemazel
is the guy he spills it on.
Wendy Baker
Joe Bruno
> sheldonlg <sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>
> : >>>
> : >>> > Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
>
> : >>> The best English translation of "schmuck" is "prick". I don't know
> : >>> what t
> : >> he
> : >>> Americans say.
> : >>>
> : >>> --
> : >>> Henry Goodman
> : >>> henry dot goodman at virgin dot net- Hide quoted text -
> : >>>
> : >>> - Show quoted text -
> : >>
> : >> In America, prick means asshole, a mean nasty person.Schmuck means
> : >> something very different.It means a fool or someone easily taken
> : >> advantage of.
>
> In Yiddish Henry is corect. It is an anatomical term tht only applies to
> males.
Not at all. We are discussing insults here, not anatomy.
You've completely missed the context of this discussion.
>
> Wendy Baker
Micha Berger
> The best definition of schlemeil and shlemazel I have heard is the
> schlemmeil is the guy who embarrassingly spills he coffee. The schlemazel
> is the guy he spills it on.
"Shelamazel" is a portomental of "shlemiel" + "mazel". Since mazel in
Yiddish means "luck", you get the kind of person who, if he didn't have
bad luck he would have no luck at all!
(I think in older Hebrew, "mazal" was more like fate or destiny. The word
literally means contellation, and thus invokes the concept of astrology,
which in turn is about how some rules of nature will compell a certain
outcome. Not luck.)
There are two theories about the etymology of "Shlemiel":
1- The one I don't like is that it originated from the character in
the German fable "The Wonderful History of Peter Schlemihl".
2- The one I prefer, for totally irrational reasons (see below), is that
it comes from the name of the prince of Shim'on, Shelumiel (Bamidbar
1:6). Shim'on is a tribe that is implicated in adultery later in the
book, when Pinechas kills their prince, Zimri, in the middle of Zimri
having relations with Kazbi, a daughter of a Midianite chieftans. There
is even some rabbinic tradition that Zimri was a nickname for Shelumiel
(although the two incidents are 38 years apart and one needn't assume
Shim'on had the same leader. Shim'on is also seen as less put-together
than the other tribes because they were the tribe that never who some
identify with Shelumiel, manages to settle any land of their own.
(Dan fails to get their ancestral land, but does manage to conqure
lands to the north. Shim'on, OTOH, ends up living in an island of
settlements within Judah's lands.)
The two are not mutually exclusive. It's possible that von Chamisso, who
wrote the fable, knew his bible and picked the name accordingly. However,
I prefer to believe that a Jewish idiom has Torah roots than thinking
it took form from a local fable.
If I can give a rational rationale for my preference... The German story
was published in 1843. The language we call Yiddish is an East European
invention. (There is a "Western Yiddish", but that really is just a
German dialect that has some Torah and Talmudic buzzwords thrown in.)
The split between Yiddish and German was centuries old already, having
begun when Ashkenazic settlement headed east to escape the Crusades.
Why would Jews in Eastern Europe have picked up an idiom from a book
written in another country, and no one else did?
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Joe Bruno
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think there are lots of Gentiles who use Yiddish words without
really knowing what they mean. They like the sound of it, so they
repeat it.
Henry Goodman
news:i3ca0q$ssk$1...@reader1.panix.com...
schlemazel's neck.
Abe Kohen
"Avrum Lapin" <avru...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:avrum223-023AFB...@24-158-227-212.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com...
For a Dvar Torah, it should be Schlemiel or Schlmazel. (Laverne and
Shirley.)
For a vochedige zach, it could be Schmuck or Putz, but definitely not for a
Dvar Toireh.
Abe
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
West to look for work. Somebody tells them that with names like
Berel, Derel, and Shmerel, they'll never find work out West.
So Berel changed his name to Buck, Derel changed his name to Duck,
and Shmerel.... stayed home.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
That's what happens when you know Jewish History! Thanks.
Don Levey
> So these three guys, Berel, Derel, and Shmerel, decide to go out
> West to look for work. Somebody tells them that with names like
> Berel, Derel, and Shmerel, they'll never find work out West.
> So Berel changed his name to Buck, Derel changed his name to Duck,
> and Shmerel.... stayed home.
>
And my friends all call me Tex
When I lived in old New Mexico
They used to call me Mex
When I lived in old Kentucky
They called me Old Kentuck
I was born in old Shamokin
Which is why they call me Melvin Rose
(Allan Sherman)
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
(PeteCresswell)
> Having learned the word in the US
>then seeing it on the side of a buses advertising jewerly (in
>Germany), was amusing to say the least.
Couple years back, in the USA, I found myself following some sort
of cleaning truck (hoses, pumps, big tank) which, I guess, was
made in Germany because on it was the label "Putzmeister" in
10-inch lettering.
--
PeteCresswell
Abe Kohen
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2010Aug...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> So these three guys, Berel, Derel, and Shmerel, decide to go out
> West to look for work. Somebody tells them that with names like
> Berel, Derel, and Shmerel, they'll never find work out West.
> So Berel changed his name to Buck, Derel changed his name to Duck,
> and Shmerel.... stayed home.
Heard a similar joke but Shmerel's name was Ferel.
Abe
Harry Weiss
> Lee said
> >
> >My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
> >where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
> Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
I think it originates for the word for Jewler - shmuckler such as in the
current slang family jewels.
> I have a feeling the meaning has been distorted in the last generation
> or more.
> My understanding of shmuck is another word for someone who gets the
> versus Bryzinzki, Kowlkowski,
> Meir
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Harry Weiss
> Lee said
> >
> >My dad and uncles claimed they could, but all they seemed to know
> >where the usual slang words, schmuck & tuchus etc.
> Speaking of shmuck**, what does it mean?
I remember the explanation in the book joys of yiddish
Some old man in Miami Beach was having some problem (the book said what
it was, but I don't remember) He was told that a cure was to get a camel
and ride it up and down Collins Ave.
He did and begain riding the camel up and down Collins ave. One day it
was stolen. He went to report the theft to the police. They asked what
color was it, he said "I don't know, camel color" what size was it,
Size of normal camel, What sex was it " How should I know" Then he said
"It was male" The cops asked "How do you know now.?" He said "I heard
all the people saying look at the shmuck on the camel"
Joe Bruno
Allan Sherman told a similar joke on one of his records.
lee
Do you have a big problem with camel theft in NYC? Is that why you had
that TV show Mccloud?
Steve Goldfarb
>I remember the explanation in the book joys of yiddish
>Some old man in Miami Beach was having some problem (the book said what
>it was, but I don't remember) He was told that a cure was to get a camel
>and ride it up and down Collins Ave.
>He did and begain riding the camel up and down Collins ave. One day it
>was stolen. He went to report the theft to the police. They asked what
>color was it, he said "I don't know, camel color" what size was it,
>Size of normal camel, What sex was it " How should I know" Then he said
>"It was male" The cops asked "How do you know now.?" He said "I heard
>all the people saying look at the shmuck on the camel"
<grin> I've always loved that joke, thanks.
--s
--
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
My family came to America in 1703 and for the last 200 years (until
WW2) German was the language. The family was orginally from France
(one grandmother was born in a French colony in Kentucky in 1630 then
moved back to Europe) but the area was conquered by the Germans so
they were German speakers when the came here.
mm
wrote:
>> --
>> Harry J. Weiss
>> hjwe...@panix.com
>
>Do you have a big problem with camel theft in NYC?
I think so. There are almost none left.
>Is that why you had
>that TV show Mccloud?
--