Okinawans
Xanatos
The hostility that you mention between may have been true of your
generation, but not so of MY generation japanese (Gen X)
I notice my grandmother and those of her gen. mention "okinawa-jin" with
an air of "huh!" attitude, but I don't sense that *at all* among those
of postwar Japanese (in effect, those in their 20s and younger).
Actually post-war japanese people are some of the most
open-minded, non-culturally judgemental people I've seen (glad to say
:))...whch is the cause of
much conflict between the post and pre war Japanese people.
The Japan of today is NOT the Japan of the past...please understand
this.
I feel sorry for you 2 that you have such negative feelings towards the
people of your ancestry. But you realize that you are condemning an
entire race (the Japanese) for being a certain way, when it is
generation-sepcific. In effect, you are stereotyping an entire people,
albeit your own. :-(
And, what's worse, you are making a judgmenet on the moral status and
validity of that culture *based* on that stereotype.
Perhaps it's that kind of stereotypical judgementalism towars other
cultures that has caused the probs between the Okinawans and the
Japanese in the past. In effect, you are judgin the Japanese the way
the Japanese used to judge the Okinawans.
Please do not condemn prejudice *with* prejudice. :-(
Ken
BigNavyGuy
Xantos wrote:
>The Japan of today is NOT the Japan of the past...please understand
>this.
The writer is correct. But he (she) should understand that the Japanese who
came to Hawaii in the late 1800s until 1924 brought with them the prejudices
from that generation. From 1924, the Oriental Exclution Act barred further
Japanese immigration. This fact caused Hawaii's Japanese culture, language as
well as prejudices to be "frozen" in time. Thus, when the natural evolution of
ideas and progress have evolved in Japan, the Japanese community was at a
standstill.
The Japanese in Hawaii therefore, have "maintained the prejudices" of
old-Japan. In fact, I once read in a book about how to meet Japanese
girls...(forgot the title/author). Anyway, the author cautioned that if you
want to meet a "traditional Japanese woman", you have to go to Hawaii and find
a Japanese American one!
BigNavy
Kekamaao
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>,
bigna...@aol.com (BigNavyGuy) wrote:
>Xantos wrote:
This is an example of a phenomenon that I find very interesting. Cultural
anthropologists have recorded numerous examples. I think there's even a
term for it, but I can't remember right now what it is. The phenomenon
in question is that the traditional elements of a culture always seem to
be best preserved at the edges of the geographical reqion over which the
culture has spread. Thus, the language in modern Iceland, an island which
represents the Westernmost fringe of the Norse empire of the middle ages,
is virtually identical today to the Norse language as it was written (and
presumably spoken) in Norway 1000 years ago, whereas modern Norwegian is
much different. Another example is the English language as spoken in
certain parts of Appalachia. That hillbilly dialect that they speak
in West Virginia is very similar to what was spoken in England in
Shakespeare's time and a far cry from what modern academics recognize
as the proper Queen's English.
I'm told that Maori and Hawaiian are also examples of this phenomenon.
Both developed as outward migrations of an earlier core culture and the
two languages, Maori and Hawaiian, are actually more similar to one another
than they are to the modern polynesian languages spoken by the people who
live today in the islands that comprised the regions of the ancestral parent
culture.
I've never heard a good reason for why this is so. It actually seems a
little counter-intuitive to me, but perhaps it's not so surprising that
the place to find a "traditional Japanese" person would be in Hawai`i or
maybe even California or one of the other outlying regions of Japanese
cultural influence rather than Tokyo. The same thing is true of Zen,
according to at least one Japanese Zen master who suggests that if you
want to study Zen you'll have better luck finding a teacher in America.
I think there's even a similar effect evident in Hawai`i as the edge of
American culture. American holiday celebrations here have a kind of
enhanced traditional character that's been lost in many parts of
the mainland. It's part of Hawai`i's charm for us old farts.
Aloha,
jesse
Xanatos
BigNavyGuy wrote:
> girls...(forgot the title/author). Anyway, the author cautioned that if you
> want to meet a "traditional Japanese woman", you have to go to Hawaii and
>find
> a Japanese American one!
>
> BigNavy
True. I myself have noticed that, while Japanese women from Japan
still tend to behave in the passive, timid fashion that has gained them
that reputation, they also have this streak of "tomboy"-ishness in them,
and are more self-assured--mostly due to influences of American culture
(it gets kinda complicated to go on as to why, but let's just say
American influences have alot to do with it).
The Japanese culture of Hawai`i however, because of its history and
conflicts with Americans, as well as the strong "closed-off" mentality
that exists here (which is VERY typical of the old Edo-period Japanese
mentality) towards outsiders, has maintained, more or less, the same old
traditional mentality and beliefs...albeit altered with influence from
Hawaiian, Chinese, and Filipino cultures.
Thus Hawai`i's people are fiercely aware of who is "local" and who
isn't--IOW, who is "gaijin" and who isn't.
My mother, a bobura ;), mentioned how local Japanese women just aren't
as aggressive as she would have expected them to be, considering Hawai'i
is part of America.
If anything, she said, some local Japanese women are less aggressive and
seemingly more "feminine" (for lack of a better word) than their
counterparts from Japan.
Of course, the other extreme would be the Katonks. Now they are,
predictably, much more haolefied, and have seemed to have completely
lost the old Japanese ways of thinking. Naturally, being a minority on
the mainland, not to mention the culturally dominant influences of
individualism (contrary to the Japanese beliefs of groupism) have
basically eliminated any remnants of old Japan.
To me, it's this maintenance of the differing cultures that have always
fascinated me about da islands...and is one of the many things that
makes Hawai`i unique.
Ken :-)
--
sig deleted
BigNavyGuy
Jessie wrote:
>Another example is the English language as spoken in
>certain parts of Appalachia. That hillbilly dialect that they speak
>in West Virginia is very similar to what was spoken in England in
>Shakespeare's time and a far cry from what modern academics recognize
>as the proper Queen's English.
Another provoking thought is pidgin English accent. The original missionaries
to Hawaii hailed from Marlboro, Massachussets. How does a person speaking
pidgin English pronounce "Car key"? Is it not strangely similar to a New
Englander's was of prounouncing it?
BigNavyGuy
Xanatos
Pidgin, actually, was originally a mix of Japanese and Hawaiian, no
English.
If someone who speaks today's pidgin went back 100 years, and tried
speaking with someone who spoke pidgin back then, they wouldn't know
what in the h**l teach other were sayin.
It's only later that English was added.
That's why you'll notice many Japanese words in pidgin today, not to
mention syntax is very Japanese (like the addition of "eh?!" at the end
of a sentence...much the same as Japanese "Ne?", and so forth), not to
mention the attitudes, and the body language.
Ken :)
Sharon Westfall
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>, bigna...@aol.com
says...
:The Japanese in Hawaii therefore, have "maintained the prejudices" of
:old-Japan. In fact, I once read in a book about how to meet Japanese
:girls...(forgot the title/author). Anyway, the author cautioned that if you
:want to meet a "traditional Japanese woman", you have to go to Hawaii and find
:a Japanese American one!
I can't imagine I'm anything at all like a traditional Japanese woman.
Except, maybe cause my daughters and I still go to Bon Dances? I've
heard that the Japanese tourists here love to attend them here, too,
because they don't do them in Japan anymore, like they do here.
Also, my mom mentioned some Japanese words that we still use here in
Hawaii, that have been eliminated from the language in Japan, due to
modernization, but I don't know which words they were, because I don't
speak the language.
Me? Traditional Japanese? Serve tea? Nah.... :-)
As for maintaining prejudices of old-Japan, like against Okinawans, I
don't remember any distinctions made between Japanese and Okinawans,
except Okinawans had more hair. And that some names were Okinawan names,
which meant nothing different from understanding other names were
Filipino, or Hawaiian, or Chinese, etc.
--
*************** PIYO __ PIYO *********************
* Sharon Westfall / \ soc.culture.hawaii !!! *
* Kuau, Maui, Hawaii < ^ \ *
* | ) *
* \/\____/ !!!Mononoke Hime!!! *
*************************** > *************************
Sharon Westfall
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>, k-...@worldnet.att.net
says...
:The Japanese culture of Hawai`i however, because of its history and
:conflicts with Americans, as well as the strong "closed-off" mentality
:that exists here (which is VERY typical of the old Edo-period Japanese
:mentality) towards outsiders, has maintained, more or less, the same old
:traditional mentality and beliefs...albeit altered with influence from
:Hawaiian, Chinese, and Filipino cultures.
I don't understand what you mean regarding conflicting with Americans,
but, the "closed-off" mentality is probably true. It seems to me, that
although the AJA's have been here in Hawaii for a long time, they've
rarely intermarried with those of other races. They do now, though.
:Thus Hawai`i's people are fiercely aware of who is "local" and who
:isn't--IOW, who is "gaijin" and who isn't.
But, the who is "local" and who isn't, is not uniquely a Japanese trait.
Native Hawaiians, local "any-other-race" also follow it, too.
:My mother, a bobura ;), mentioned how local Japanese women just aren't
:as aggressive as she would have expected them to be, considering Hawai'i
:is part of America.
Hmmm... maybe because we've been sheltered in small towns here? As
Hawaii's population grows and gets more impersonal, I'm sure us local
girls will adapt to big city aggression, like everywhere else.
Karen Lofstrom
Xanatos (k-...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Pidgin, actually, was originally a mix of Japanese and Hawaiian, no
: English.
AFAIK, a pidgin will develop in any situation where people who speak
different languages must interact with each other. It's usually a
fleeting phenomenon: developed, used, dies out as one or the other
language prevails. In some cases, the pidgin becomes a creole, as it
did in Hawai'i.
The first pidgin used here was a doubtless a Hawaiian-English pidgin.
Sailors would also have brought the Chinese-English pidgin used along
the China coast by traders. This Chinese-English pidgin would have
become even more prevalent after the importation of the first Chinese
laborers, then mixed with the Hawaiian-English pidgin. Each new
ethnic group to arrive added its own ingredients to the
mix. This pidgin became a creole when kids were born here and spoke
it, rather than standard English, as a first language.
So, no, pidgin wasn't originally a mix of Japanese and Hawaiian.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
inconceivable!
Kekamaao
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>,
westfal@aloha_SPAM_MUSUBI.net (Sharon Westfall) wrote:
>In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>, k-...@worldnet.att.net
>says...
>:Thus Hawai`i's people are fiercely aware of who is "local" and who
>:isn't--IOW, who is "gaijin" and who isn't.
>But, the who is "local" and who isn't, is not uniquely a Japanese trait.
>Native Hawaiians, local "any-other-race" also follow it, too.
..and that's true not just in Hawai`i but everywhere in the world. It's
just part of human nature to be a little suspicious of strangers. It's
a healthy instinct. I haven't found people in Hawai`i to be less accepting
of newcomers than anywhere else in the world... quite the opposite, in fact.
And every community in the world takes pride in the accomplishments of
their "local" kids... that's a healthy instinct too. It's just community
spirit.
>:My mother, a bobura ;), mentioned how local Japanese women just aren't
>:as aggressive as she would have expected them to be, considering Hawai'i
>:is part of America.
>Hmmm... maybe because we've been sheltered in small towns here? As
>Hawaii's population grows and gets more impersonal, I'm sure us local
>girls will adapt to big city aggression, like everywhere else.
I'm not so sure I buy that. I know that studies have shown that aggression
increases when population pressure becomes too great, but I don't think I'm
ready to accept the idea that cities necessarily cause people to become
more aggressive. Obviously, there is a greater number of instances of
aggressive behavior in a city than there is in a rural community, but
I suspect that, on a percapita basis, aggression might even go down as
cities get larger... probably depends on the city, I suppose.
If American women are more aggressive than those in other societies,
and I do NOT for one minute believe that they are, it wouldn't be the
consequence of greater urbanization anyway. Most people in America still
live in small towns and rural communities.
Anyway, I take exception to the suggestion that American women are
more aggressive than women in other parts of the world. Stereotyping
women in this way is no different from stereotyping people on the
basis of their race. It's a form of prejudice. American people,
women and men alike, are just people... like people everywhere. They
love their families, bleed when they're wounded, laugh when they're
happy and cry when they're sad. They're not greedier, or smarter, or
more generous, or more aggressive, or more passive, or stupider, or less
or more connected to the Earth upon which they stand than people in
Okinawa or Hawai`i or anywhere else. We're all just passengers on
the same ship of fools. :)
Aloha,
jesse
--
END USER LICENSE: No statement herein is to be taken as an expression of the
opinion of any person, including me. All material is solely for the purpose
of rational discussion and may be referenced only when not accompanied by
personal criticism, unsolicited advice, or special offers directed toward
any of the participants.
Kekamaao
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>,
Xanatos <k-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Pidgin, actually, was originally a mix of Japanese and Hawaiian, no
>English.
>If someone who speaks today's pidgin went back 100 years, and tried
>speaking with someone who spoke pidgin back then, they wouldn't know
>what in the h**l teach other were sayin.
>It's only later that English was added.
>That's why you'll notice many Japanese words in pidgin today, not to
>mention syntax is very Japanese (like the addition of "eh?!" at the end
>of a sentence...much the same as Japanese "Ne?", and so forth), not to
>mention the attitudes, and the body language.
I always assumed that was from the Hawaiian language... Pukui and Elbert
defines 'ea (with a kahako over the "a") as an interjection meaning
"Isn't that so?" Since the pronunciation is almost identical to "yeah"
(preceeded by a glottal stop), I always assumed that was the origin of
that particular pattern of expression. I don't know anything about
Japanese, but in terms of it's syntax, Pidgin is Hawaiian to the core.
My Hawaiian teacher encourages her students (especially the newcomers
to Hawai`i) to practice speaking Pidgin, because it helps one learn to
think in Hawaiian patterns. That, of course, is the key to learning
to speak the language.
Since the Chinese arrival in Hawai`i preceeded the Japanese by several
decades, one would expect that the real roots of Pidgin were Chinese,
Hawaiian, and English... since those were the nationalities of the
people who needed to communicate on the plantations. Japanese laborers
didn't begin to arrive in Hawai`i until the mid 1880s, Population figures
from Nordyke ("The Peopling of Hawai`i") show that in 1884 there were
only 116 Japanese people in Hawai`i, over 16,000 Haoles, and over 18,000
Chinese. Most of the Haoles were Portugese, so it's probable that, in
terms of the origins of Pidgin, the Portugese roots run deeper than
the Japanese.
Keola Donaghy
> The first pidgin used here was a doubtless a Hawaiian-English pidgin.
It was, though it was much more Hawaiian than English, mostly Hawaiian
with some English words and sentence structures. It evolved (devolved?)
into the present pidgin that is mostly English, but uses a significant
amount of Hawaiian words any may sentence structures.
kd
Xanatos
Altho the Chinese did come first, whether or not pidgin was influenced
by the Chinese language all depends on the amount of interaction there
was between them and the other nationalituies.
Anyhoo, the mix of Hawaiian and Japanese being the origins of pidgin
comes from what I learned at the U.H. (which really ain't sayin much, I
know).
Ken
BigNavyGuy
westfal wrote:
> It seems to me, that
>although the AJA's have been here in Hawaii for a long time, they've
>rarely intermarried with those of other races. They do now, though.
>
>
This i find true, but its a recent phenomenom. In Hawaii, you can still find
pure yonsei and gosei (4th and 5th generation Japanese Ancestry). Try and find
4th and 5th general pure Filipino, Chinese or Portuguese people who are not of
mixed race.........virtually non-existant.
BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
westfal wrote:
>my mom mentioned some Japanese words that we still use here in
>Hawaii, that have been eliminated from the language in Japan, due to
>modernization, but I don't know which words they were,
Some words that are used in Hawaii but not in Japan
Benjo=toilet. Called "otearai" in Japan and translates to "honorable hand
washing place"
Jagaimo or imo=Potato, Called "po-ta-to" in Japan.
Toomorokoshi=Corn. called "kon" in Japan.
Daidokoro=Kitchen. called "kitchin" in Japan.
There are some words used in Japan that emulate English:
Kenta=Kentucky Friend Chicken
Saa-ti wan= Baskin Robbins Ice Cream (Saa-ti wan means "Thirty-one Flavors)
Seems like there is trend to use "foreign loaned words", thus changing the
usage of the original vocabulary words.
In Hawaii, we have Boys day and Girls day. In Japan, it has been combined into
Children'sDay.
When I first went to Japan, I met a girl in Tokyo whom I asked to take me to
the infamous Meiji Shrine. There, I was surprised to learn that I had to show
her how to pay her respects, (hold hands together as if in prayer, clap twice,
throw coin offering in receptable box, and repeat the clapping and bow...and Im
not even a "traditional Japanese girl from Hawaii!
BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
jessie wrote:
>Anyway, I take exception to the suggestion that American women are
>more aggressive than women in other parts of the world. Stereotyping
>women in this way is no different from stereotyping people on the
>basis of their race.
Jessie is correct......in a way Lets have a scenario. Suppose we take an
American high level polititian, say, the retired Pat Schroeder and let the
President say a few words of kindness about her ability as a senator. However,
lets say that the President also mentions that there is only one thing in
Schroeder's life that is lacking. That she has never married nor had children,
thus, though an excellent senator, she has not fulfilled her first priority in
life.
Do you think that Schroeder as well as the National Organization for Women and
other civial rights groups would take that incident lying down? Would there be
an an outburst calling for his resignation?
This situation ACTUALLY happened! The scene was in a different location. The
"polititian", Takako Doi, the "President" was the Japanese Prime Minister.
What do you think Doi did when faced with this criticism?
She humbly bowed down and apologized to other members of the Japanese Diet, as
well as to the Japanese people..
In this scenario, one can say that American women are more aggressive (in a
positive light) than women in other parts of the world (Japan).
BigNavyGuy
mich...@lava.net
BigNavyGuy wrote:
> When I first went to Japan, I met a girl in Tokyo whom I asked to take
> me to
> the infamous Meiji Shrine. There, I was surprised to learn that I had
> to show
> her how to pay her respects, (hold hands together as if in prayer,
> clap twice,
> throw coin offering in receptable box, and repeat the clapping and
> bow...and Im
> not even a "traditional Japanese girl from Hawaii!
>
Since when is Meiji Shrine infamous? Maybe you meant to say Yasukuni
shrine which is the one that honors those who died in war?
Kekamaao
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>,
bigna...@aol.com (BigNavyGuy) wrote:
>jesse wrote:
You make a good point.
I think we could find plenty of horror stories from every land, but I
also think it's important to try to understand them in context. That
scenario, if it took place in Washington, wouldn't mean the same thing.
It's hard to imagine what it would mean, but I don't think the president
would be asked to resign... only because it's unfair to expect people
to talk when they're dangling by the neck from a tall tree on a short
rope. :)
I don't know how Japanese people might have viewed that incident, but
it occurs to me that while it may have been embarrassing for Takako Doi,
her gracious apology must have made the Prime Minister look like a
certifiable asshole... so if it was a battle, I'm not so sure he won.
There are all kinds of ways to cut a jerk down to size, and one of the
most effective is to be aggressively polite.
BigNavyGuy
michael said:
>Since when is Meiji Shrine infamous? Maybe you meant to say Yasukuni
>shrine which is the one that honors those who died in war?
>
>
BOTH are infamous
BigNavyGuy
Norman Roberts
The best source for the history of Hawaiian Pidgin is still John
Reinecke (1969) Language and Dialect in Hawaii. Honolulu: UH Press.
This was originally his 1937 UH master's thesis and also has an
interesting history. It was so much in demand that it had to be put in
the closed shelves. Then when Reinecke came under the Communist cloud
of the fifties, the thesis was removed from circulation entirely. By
the mid sixties, McCarthyism was over and Reinecke was rehabilitated.
Professor Stanley Tsuzaki edited the thesis for publication. Tsuzaki
and Reinecke also edited a bibliography of Hawaiian Pidgin which
includes just about everything ever written on the subject (good and
bad) up to about 1966.
According to Reinecke, the origins of Hawaiian Pidgin (which is actually
a creole dialect of English although it is still called "pidgin") lie in
the "Hapa-haole" speech which developed as Hawaiians began to use
English in the early nineteenth century. With the development of the
plantations and contract labor, Hapa-haole became the language of
command since the first lunas were Hawaiians.
Interestingly enough, there seems to be very little Chinese or Japanese
influence in Hawaiian Pidgin, and so far as I know, no one has attempted
to account for this.
Creolists would probably say that Hawaiian Pidgin is based on Hawaiian
syntactic patterns with English relexification. Speech rhythm and
intonation is mainly Hawaiian although Professor Edgar Knowlton
attempted to show a Portuguese influence.
In general, Hawaiian Pidgin is more talked about than researched
although from time to time there are graduate students in speech or
linguistics who do a dissertation on some aspect of it.
|\|
Xanatos
Ah yes, the ol' "we're all the same" mentailty that Americans love.
Fact is tho, that ever culture, and the people within it, *are*
different fro those of other cultures. Values, morals, beliefs,
behavior, attitudes within a culture tends to be shared within the
people of that society. Every culture has certain values that are
unique to that society...traits that cannot be found elsewhere, in other
parts of the world. That is what makes different races, societies,
countries, and cultures different.
We are not that similar Jesse, altho you probably want to believe that.
We *are* different. Every culture has traits that are generally
accepted and held within the people of that society, and not shared with
those outside of that culture.
It's this "we're all God's children" mentaility that has fueled cultural
genocide in the world. Because, as God's children, we MUST be the
same...thus it stands to reason that there is only one right and one
wrong, good and bad, etc. which must apply to all peoples everywhere.
And if a society does not adhere to a way of life that has proven
successful elsewhere, then those people must be "misguided", "ignorant"
or "savage".
This is what justifies the destruction of other cultures, and the
imposition of your own cultures onto them.
Fact is, Americans ARE more agresive than most cultures out there.
Aggressiveness in common social situations is a highly favored trait
among Americans...male or female. Confontationalism, "fighting for
one's rights", and the ol' "squeeky wheel gets the grease" thinking is
what is highly regarded as a positive trait...contrary to the Japanese
belief in "the nail that sticks out too far, gets hammered down".
It's a shared belief uniquely American.
Stereotype? Probably. But hell, I'll say that most Japanese people are
less behaviorily aggressive than Americans. Stereotype? Yep. True?
Definately.
You want to stretch the definition of stereotype further? Well, by
saying that all of the world's peoples are the same...well, that's a
stereotype of humanity.
Anyway, I hate debates, so I'm leaving this thread...I'm poop(ed).
Ken
John H. Haig
BigNavyGuy wrote:
>
> Some words that are used in Hawaii but not in Japan
>
> Benjo=toilet. Called "otearai" in Japan and translates to "honorable hand
> washing place"
Actually, benjoo is still used, but it's pretty much dropped out of the spoken
language. Other than otearai, you will also see keshooshitsu (powder room)
and otoire (o+toilet) (double vowels indicate length)
>
> Jagaimo or imo=Potato, Called "po-ta-to" in Japan.
If it's fries at Macdonalds, that's true, but if it's in the yaoya, it's still jagaimo.
There's a meat and potato stew-like dish called nikujaga where the "jaga" is
from jagaimo. Imo alone is also still used, but there are so many kinds of
imo (taro-imo, sato-imo, ara-imo, satsuma-imo,...)
>
> Toomorokoshi=Corn. called "kon" in Japan.
If it comes out of a can and appears on your pizza, it's kon, but if it's still on
the ear, it's toomorokoshi (or kibi, in Hokkaido).
>
> Daidokoro=Kitchen. called "kitchin" in Japan.
actually, both words are still current.
>
Some words now extinct in Japan but still current among the older
generation in Hawaii include "katsudoo" for movie Comes from katsudoo-
shashin, lit. "moving pictures" (eiga in Japan), hinoshi for iron (airon), tamana
for cabbage (kyabetsu), and shisha for lettuce (retasu).
john
kmi...@erols.com
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>,
bigna...@aol.com (BigNavyGuy) wrote:
>
>
> westfal wrote:
>
> >my mom mentioned some Japanese words that we still use here in
> >Hawaii, that have been eliminated from the language in Japan, due to
> >modernization, but I don't know which words they were,
>
> Some words that are used in Hawaii but not in Japan
>
> Benjo=toilet. Called "otearai" in Japan and translates to "honorable hand
> washing place"
>
> Jagaimo or imo=Potato, Called "po-ta-to" in Japan.
>
> Toomorokoshi=Corn. called "kon" in Japan.
>
> Daidokoro=Kitchen. called "kitchin" in Japan.
The last time I was in Japan all these words were still used. Jagaimo is
used when the potatoes are cooked in a traditional way or cooked in a not
western way. Same for toomorokoshi. There are alot of English borrowed words
but the old words aren't obsolete either. Just a little note :>)
Momo-chan
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
BigNavyGuy
Haig wrote:
>> Benjo=toilet. Called "otearai" in Japan and translates to "honorable hand
>> washing place"
>
>Actually, benjoo is still used, but it's pretty much dropped out of the
>spoken
>language. Other than otearai, you will also see keshooshitsu (powder room)
>and otoire (o+toilet) (double vowels indicate length)
>>
>> Jagaimo or imo=Potato, Called "po-ta-to" in Japan.
>
>If it's fries at Macdonalds, that's true, but if it's in the yaoya, it's
>still jagaimo.
>There's a meat and potato stew-like dish called nikujaga where the "jaga" is
>from jagaimo. Imo alone is also still used, but there are so many kinds of
>imo (taro-imo, sato-imo, ara-imo, satsuma-imo,...)
>>
>> Toomorokoshi=Corn. called "kon" in Japan.
>
>If it comes out of a can and appears on your pizza, it's kon, but if it's
>still on
>the ear, it's toomorokoshi (or kibi, in Hokkaido).
>>
>> Daidokoro=Kitchen. called "kitchin" in Japan.
>
>actually, both words are still current.
>>
>
>Some words now extinct in Japan but still current among the older
>generation in Hawaii include "katsudoo" for movie Comes from katsudoo-
>shashin, lit. "moving pictures" (eiga in Japan), hinoshi for iron (airon),
>tamana
>for cabbage (kyabetsu), and shisha for lettuce (retasu).
>
>john
>
>
></PRE></HTML>
I'm sorry, but my information came from a native of Yokohama (wife)
BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
momochan wrote:
> The last time I was in Japan all these words were still used. Jagaimo is
>used when the potatoes are cooked in a traditional way or cooked in a not
>western way. Same for toomorokoshi. There are alot of English borrowed
>words
>but the old words aren't obsolete either. Just a little note :>)
>
> Momo-chan
>
>
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
>
></PRE></HTML>
Im sorry but my information came from a native of Yokohama (wife).
BigNavyGuy
Kekamaao
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>,
Xanatos <k-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[...]
>We are not that similar Jesse, altho you probably want to believe that.
>We *are* different. Every culture has traits that are generally
>accepted and held within the people of that society, and not shared with
>those outside of that culture.
>It's this "we're all God's children" mentaility that has fueled cultural
>genocide in the world. Because, as God's children, we MUST be the
>same...thus it stands to reason that there is only one right and one
>wrong, good and bad, etc. which must apply to all peoples everywhere.
>And if a society does not adhere to a way of life that has proven
>successful elsewhere, then those people must be "misguided", "ignorant"
>or "savage".
I don't think that stands to reason at all. You're saying that if we're
all God's children then it follows that we all have to love the same
things, whether we're in Hawai`i, India, New Mexico or Alaska???
What's logical about that? The conclusion is completely unrelated to
the premise. It's logical to conclude that *some* things are shared
by all people in common, but not everything.
Interesting points about cultural differences though, Ken. Thank heaven
we're not all the same. Thank heaven also that we share a great deal in
common. It is what we all share in common that makes us human, and it is
our human-ness that constitutes the foundation upon which *all* cultures
are constructed. It is our humanity that preceeds all those cultural
values that cause us to be so wonderfully different.
Culture is to human beings as make-up is to a face. We may dearly love
them both, but fundamentally they're both just something we (or someone)
invented. They're merely artifice. Humans do not exist to serve the
needs of cultures any more than faces exist to serve the needs of
lipsticks. It's the other way around. Let me hasten to add that I don't
mean to suggest that culture is as trivial as lipstick, or that there is
no duty to one's culture, but only that duty follows as a consequence of
the benefits gained from participation, and that the most important thing
is not the culture (or the lipstick) but the people (or the face).
It's the relationship between stereotype and prejudice that worrys me.
Stereotypes are useful sometimes, as symbols or as simplifications of
things more complicated. We need them in order to manage complexity.
The problem, as I see it, arises when we turn the process around, and
assume that the stereotype informs us about an individual. Then it
becomes pre-judgement (which is the root concept of the term prejudice).
Prejudice is pathological. It's always destructive, whether it's based
on racial, sexual, or cultural differences. It's a social disease and
has no rightful place here in Hawai`i, or anywhere else.
BTW, the use of terms invented by hybridization with unrelated but
emotionally loaded words like "genocide" is a form of intellectual
dishonesty. People have genes. Whales and turtles and bacteria have
genes. Cultures don't. "Cultural genocide" is an example of a kind of
Orwellian hype-speak. IMO, it weakens any statement in which it occurs.
BigNavyGuy
Jessie wrote:
>Another example is the English language as spoken in
>certain parts of Appalachia. That hillbilly dialect that they speak
>in West Virginia is very similar to what was spoken in England in
>Shakespeare's time and a far cry from what modern academics recognize
>as the proper Queen's English.
________
I am from Appalachia, and I often hear this said about the local speech.
To some extent, it is true insofar as the immigrants were really of
English heritage. The present accent of "Queen's English" in Britain
probably originated during the earliest years of Hanoverian rule in the
eighteenth century. Before that time,the speech of even the most
aristocratic Englishman would have been much more familiar to the American
ear. But there are other complexities involved: most immigrants to
America were not aristocrats, but came from counties all over the
country. The earliest English immigrants to the South came from southern
counties of the country and spoke local dialects. That is one reason the
speech of Southern mountain people often differs from valley to valley.
Then the Scotch-Irish (please, no letters from Scots!) showed up and
complicated matters with *their* accent/s. It has become almost
impossible to figure all this out in Southern speech after two or even
three hundred years, but some linguistic researchers have indeed shown
that the speech in some Southern localities is like the local speech today
near Portsmouth in England, etc.
Shakespeare's English really did sound very different from modern Queen's
English, regardless of the wonderful efforts of the Royal Shakespeare
Company and Laurence Olivier et al. in recent times.
________
Another provoking thought is pidgin English accent. The original missionaries
to Hawaii hailed from Marlboro, Massachussets. How does a person speaking
pidgin English pronounce "Car key"? Is it not strangely similar to a New
Englander's was of prounouncing it?
BigNavyGuy
________
I respond to this part only as a teacher of language. Yes, there is an
eerie similarity in the Massachusetts and Pidgin pronunciations of "car
key." I don't know if this is due to the influence of the missionaries
and their teaching of English in Hawai`i. Maybe so. I would think it
just as likely that the Polynesian and other Pacific languages of the
people who invented Pidgin would have pre-conditioned them not to want to
end words with a retroflex "r" sound, common in English, but rare in other
languages -- particularly those of Hawai`i, China, Japan, the Philippines,
and the Pacific region in general. "Car key" = "Cah key" in Pidgin, but
the vowel in "car" is a "broad a" in Boston, pronounced with nasal
overtones. "Cah" in Pidgin has an open sound with a vowel like the one we
encounter in the word "wash" in Standard American English -- just about
like the "a" in Hawaiian. And -- a major point -- Hawaiian words never end
in a consonant. Just conjecturing, you understand...
Aloha,
David
Xanatos
Kekamaao wrote:
> >It's this "we're all God's children" mentaility that has fueled cultural
> >genocide in the world. Because, as God's children, we MUST be the
> >same...thus it stands to reason that there is only one right and one
> >wrong, good and bad, etc. which must apply to all peoples everywhere.
> >And if a society does not adhere to a way of life that has proven
> >successful elsewhere, then those people must be "misguided", "ignorant"
> >or "savage".
>
> I don't think that stands to reason at all. You're saying that if we're
It isn't. It's a perfect example of the Missionary attitude that people
brought to the islands, and that seems to permeate in this newsgroup as
well.
>
> The problem, as I see it, arises when we turn the process around, and
> assume that the stereotype informs us about an individual. Then it
> becomes pre-judgement (which is the root concept of the term prejudice).
> Prejudice is pathological. It's always destructive, whether it's based
Always? That's a stereotypical thing to say. :)
> on racial, sexual, or cultural differences. It's a social disease and
> has no rightful place here in Hawai`i, or anywhere else.
Now you're stereotyping stereotypes Jess.
>
> BTW, the use of terms invented by hybridization with unrelated but
> emotionally loaded words like "genocide" is a form of intellectual
> dishonesty. People have genes. Whales and turtles and bacteria have
> genes. Cultures don't. "Cultural genocide" is an example of a kind of
> Orwellian hype-speak. IMO, it weakens any statement in which it occurs.
>
> Aloha,
> jesse
>
Genocide: Systematic, planned annihilation of a racial, political, or
cultural group. <---Oooh, aaaaah...
>From the Websters 2 New Riverside University Dictionary Copyright 1992.
You focus too much on the words people use, Jesse, and not on the
meaning. Try not to be so shallow.
Ken
--
-----
| |
| |
----------|
| |
| |
------
Ekam Satyah Viprah Bahud Vadanti
We Are All Unique in Our Own Way
Adrian L.K. O'Sullivan
The learned remarks of Norman Roberts are backed up by David Crystal's
(1987) The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language.
However, the following passages from this book also bring up a caution to
those discussing "pidgin English" in SCH. DON'T confuse the original pidgin
spoken by the immigrants to get along in their strange new home with the
creole language of their offspring -- which we commonly refer to as "pidgin
English". These two "languages" are distinct stages in a linguistic
continuum. The original pidgin was an auxiliary language, but the creole
"pidgin English" can be considered a vernacular in its own right.
The book states:
"A pidgin (language) is a system of communication which has grown up among
people who do not share a common language, but who want ot talk to each
other, for trading or other reasons. Pidgins have been variously called
'makeshift', 'marginal', or 'mixed' languages. They have a limited
vocabulary, a reduced grammatical structure, and a much narrower range of
functions, compared to the languages which gave rise to them. They are the
native language of no-one, but they are nonetheless a main means of
communication for millions of people, and a major focus of interest to those
who study the way languages change."
It goes on to say:
"A creole (language) is pidgin which has become the mother tongue of a
community -- a definition which emphasizes that pidgins and creoles are two
stages in a single process of linguistic development. First, within a
community, increasing numbers of people begin to use pidgin as their
prinicpal means of communication. As a consquence, their children hear it
more than any other language, and gradually it takes on the status of a
mother tongue for them. Within a generation or two, native language use
becomes consolidated and widespread. The result is a creole, or 'creolized'
language."
"The switch from pidgin to creole involves a major expansion in the
structural linguistic resources available -- especially in vocabulary,
grammar, and style, which now have to cope with the everyday demands made
upon a mother tongue by its speakers. There is also a highly significant
shift in the overall patterns of language use found in the community.
Pidgins are by their nature auxiliary languages, ...learned alongside
vernacular languages which are much more developed in structure and use.
Creoles, by contrast, are vernaculars in their own right. When a creole
language develops, it is usually at the expense of other languages spoken in
the area. But then it too can come under attack."
"The main source of conflict is likely to be with the standard form of the
language from which it derives, and with which it usually co-exists. The
standard language has the status which comes with social prestige,
education, and wealth; the creole has no such status, its roots lying in a
history of subservience and slavery. Inevitably, creole speakers find
themselves under great pressure ot change their speech in the direction of
standard -- a process known as 'decreolization."
The paragraph above perhaps explains why one will hear many Hawaiians
speaking two "languages" -- one -- pidgin English -- with friends; and the
other -- "General American" -- for business or education. In a sense, many
modern Hawaiians have become bilingual without realizing it.
One final maybe-comment. Maybe the study of "pidgin" is NOT being conducted
by UH scholars because the area has been studied, documented, finger-printed
and repeatedly set in print by local authors for a long, long time.
Probably every fledgling Hawaiian author has tried his/her hand at a "pidgin
English" tale at one time or another. Doesn't make for good research if all
your references are fictional novels. Just being silly. <g>
Kalani O'Sullivan
Norman Roberts wrote in message ...
Kekamaao
In article <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>,
Xanatos <k-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Kekamaao wrote:
>> I don't think that stands to reason at all.
>It isn't. It's a perfect example of the Missionary attitude that people
>brought to the islands, and that seems to permeate in this newsgroup as
>well.
It's a perfect example of what is fashionable to imagine was the
attitude of the early missionaries in Hawai`i, by people who don't
have very much knowledge of the missionaries or what they did or what
their attitudes were. The facts are quite different. Missionaries made
tremendous contributions to the preservation of Hawaiian language and
culture, and the institutions which they founded are among the strongest
of the supporters of the current Hawaiian cultural renaissance.
>> The problem, as I see it, arises when we turn the process around, and
>> assume that the stereotype informs us about an individual. Then it
>> becomes pre-judgement (which is the root concept of the term prejudice).
>> Prejudice is pathological. It's always destructive, whether it's based
>Always? That's a stereotypical thing to say. :)
>> on racial, sexual, or cultural differences. It's a social disease and
>> has no rightful place here in Hawai`i, or anywhere else.
>Now you're stereotyping stereotypes Jess.
..whatever that means. When did I become the topic?
Makani
Keel Donaghy wrote:
I would think that this is true. I can remember, small kid time, that my
vocabulary, being Portuguese, consisted of mostly English-Hawaiian with
Japanese and Chinese thrown in. I used to consider the Hawaiian words as
Hawaiian slang, of course I know better now the what I thought was slang
was actual language.
mich...@lava.net
BigNavyGuy wrote:
Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is nothing infamous about Meiji
Shrine and it seems to me to be a little insulting to the Japanese to
suggest there is . How would you feel if someone referred to the
infamous Washington Monument, which after all glorifies a well know
slave owner? What is it that you feel is so disgraceful about Meiji
shrine?
>
>
> BigNavyGuy
Xanatos
BigNavyGuy wrote:
>
> michael said:
>
> >Since when is Meiji Shrine infamous? Maybe you meant to say Yasukuni
> >shrine which is the one that honors those who died in war?
> >
> >
>
> BOTH are infamous
>
> BigNavyGuy
That's a mean thing to say BNG.
What you just typed was cruel, insensitive, and an insult to the
Japanese war dead. The Japanese have as mch right to honor those who
have fought in past wars as Americans do. How can you blatantly insult
the japanese, not to mention a religious shrine which the families of
the fallen soldiers come to honor their ancestors?
You not only insult the living, you insult the dead as well.
:-(
Ken
--
sig deleted
Xanatos
Xanatos wrote:
>
> Kekamaao wrote:
> > >It's this "we're all God's children" mentaility that has fueled cultural
> > >genocide in the world. Because, as God's children, we MUST be the
> > >same...thus it stands to reason that there is only one right and one
> > >wrong, good and bad, etc. which must apply to all peoples everywhere.
> > >And if a society does not adhere to a way of life that has proven
> > >successful elsewhere, then those people must be "misguided", "ignorant"
> > >or "savage".
> >
> > I don't think that stands to reason at all. You're saying that if we're
>
> It isn't. It's a perfect example of the Missionary attitude that people
> brought to the islands, and that seems to permeate in this newsgroup as
> well.
>
> >
> > The problem, as I see it, arises when we turn the process around, and
> > assume that the stereotype informs us about an individual. Then it
> > becomes pre-judgement (which is the root concept of the term prejudice).
> > Prejudice is pathological. It's always destructive, whether it's based
>
> Always? That's a stereotypical thing to say. :)
>
> > on racial, sexual, or cultural differences. It's a social disease and
> > has no rightful place here in Hawai`i, or anywhere else.
>
> Now you're stereotyping stereotypes Jess.
>
> >
> > BTW, the use of terms invented by hybridization with unrelated but
> > emotionally loaded words like "genocide" is a form of intellectual
> > dishonesty. People have genes. Whales and turtles and bacteria have
> > genes. Cultures don't. "Cultural genocide" is an example of a kind of
> > Orwellian hype-speak. IMO, it weakens any statement in which it occurs.
> >
> > Aloha,
> > jesse
> >
>
> Genocide: Systematic, planned annihilation of a racial, political, or
> cultural group. <---Oooh, aaaaah...
>
> >From the Websters 2 New Riverside University Dictionary Copyright 1992.
>
> You focus too much on the words people use, Jesse, and not on the
> meaning. Try not to be so shallow.
>
> Ken
>
> --
> -----
> | |
> | |
> ----------|
> | |
> | |
> ------
>
> Ekam Satyah Viprah Bahud Vadanti
> We Are All Unique in Our Own Way
--
Sorry, forgot to delete my sig.
sig deleted
Nai`a
On 15 May 1998, Xanatos wrote:
> Sorry, forgot to delete my sig.
Thank you...
Aloha mai Nai`a!
--
Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes. http://www.lava.net/~mjwise/
"I want my Cheesie Spoo!" http://www.lava.net/~sch/
BigNavyGuy
michael wrote:
>Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is nothing infamous about Meiji
>Shrine and it seems to me to be a little insulting to the Japanese to
>suggest there is . How would you feel if someone referred to the
>infamous Washington Monument, which after all glorifies a well know
>slave owner? What is it that you feel is so disgraceful about Meiji
>shrine?
Four things:
1) My post was not at all intended to debate the degree of "infamous-ness" of
the Shrines in Japan but to illustrate the fact that I, an American, had to
teach a Japanese person something one would expect them to already know.
2) The term "infamous" , according to Webster's Dictionary can mean "having a
bad reputation" as well as "of renown fame".
3) That my posts are purely my personal opinion with no intent to anger the
Japanese. Besides, if Meiji was erected to honor those who dies in the war,
(which included an attack on my country), why should Meiji, then be "sacred" to
me?.
4) Is the Washington Munument "infamous"? You tell me.
BigNavyGuy
KKTK
BigNavyGuy wrote:
> Japanese. Besides, if Meiji was erected to honor those who dies in the war,
> (which included an attack on my country), why should Meiji, then be "sacred" to
> me?.
>
No one said it should be "sacred" to YOU. It is, however, sacred to
THEM, which makes it just as valid, and deserving of respect.
It's kinda like saying that just because a heiau may be sacred to the
Kanakas, why shuld it be sacred to you? Does that make it OK to
denounce their ways just because it does not coincide with your own?
Does that make a desecration of sacred sited any less significant, just
becase one does not share their religious beliefs?
Of course it's significant...because it's disrespectful to THEM.
As for attacking Americans, yes, because the war was an attack AGAINST
Americans, then yes, you need not have any empathy for those who fought
in the war. However, the shrine was not, nor was it ever intended to
be, an ATTACK in any way shape or form against Americans, Americanism,
or the country of the United States. It does not celebrate war, nor
does it glorify what they did. It is about the SOULS if the people who
died.
The shrines are a way to honor the dead, and to morn the loss of the
people who perished as a result of the war.
It's about spirituality, and the age-old cultural value of honoring of
their ancestors that is the purpose of the shrine. It has nothing to do
with the war itself.
YOU need not honor their dead...but at the same time, you need not
desecrate them either.
Ken
--
sig deleted
mich...@lava.net
BigNavyGuy wrote:
> michael wrote:
>
> >Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is nothing infamous about Meiji
> >Shrine and it seems to me to be a little insulting to the Japanese
> to
> >suggest there is . How would you feel if someone referred to the
> >infamous Washington Monument, which after all glorifies a well know
> >slave owner? What is it that you feel is so disgraceful about Meiji
> >shrine?
>
> Four things:
>
> 1) My post was not at all intended to debate the degree of
> "infamous-ness" of
> the Shrines in Japan but to illustrate the fact that I, an American,
> had to
> teach a Japanese person something one would expect them to already
> know.
Regardless of what your intentions were, you should at least get all
your facts straight.
> 2) The term "infamous" , according to Webster's Dictionary can mean
> "having a
> bad reputation" as well as "of renown fame".
It certainly doesn't say that in Webster's online edition
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary , where all the given meanings are
distinctly negative. If your intended meaning was "of renown fame", your
choice of words was poor because under standard usage it conveys a
completely different meaning. If your intended meaning was "of renown
fame", just say so and the misunderstanding is over. (but please choose
your words more carefully in the future to avoid misunderstandings)
> 3) That my posts are purely my personal opinion with no intent to
> anger the
> Japanese. Besides, if Meiji was erected to honor those who dies in
> the war,
> (which included an attack on my country), why should Meiji, then be
> "sacred" to
> me?.
That may not have been your intent, but it is perfectly reasonable to
expect as a consequence. My intention was to clear up some
misunderstanding you may have about Meiji shrine so that you wouldn't
continue to make the same mistake in the future. Meiji Shrine has
absolutely nothing to do with those who died in war. That is Yasukuni
Shrine. Meiji Shrine honors the Emperor Meiji. No one has suggested
that Meiji shrine should be sacred to you. What I have suggested is that
you should refrain from referring to it as infamous, which Webster
defines as:
> 1 : having a reputation of the worst kind
> 2 : causing or bringing infamy :DISGRACEFUL
> 3 : convicted of an offense bringing infamy
None of which describes Meiji Shrine.
> 4) Is the Washington Munument "infamous"? You tell me.
Certainly owning slaves would be considered by most people to be more
disgraceful than anything Emperor Meiji ever did.
>
>
> BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
Xantos wrote:
>What you just typed was cruel, insensitive, and an insult to the
>Japanese war dead. The Japanese have as mch right to honor those who
>have fought in past wars as Americans do. How can you blatantly insult
>the japanese, not to mention a religious shrine which the families of
>the fallen soldiers come to honor their ancestors?
>
>You not only insult the living, you insult the dead as well.
>
>
Three things:
1) Read the thread! It was a poster by the name of Michael who brought up the
issue that I should have stated that Yasukuni (the shrine to the war dead) that
was "infamous" vice Meiji (the shrine that I DID mention). So if there's an
issue you have to bring up, take it to him (or her).
2)) A few of my relatives have served and died as Japanese soldiers and sailors
during WWII, so I am a member of one of those "families" you mention.
3) Webster's Dictionary describes INFAMOUS as "Having a bad reputation" as well
as of "renown fame". No where in my post (other then the use of the word
"infamous") do I slander or insult the Japanese people, living or dead.
Therefore, If you feel that I was "cruel, insensitive and insulting", so be it.
Next time, get your fact straight the next time you feel compelled to give be
a barrage of s--t!
BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
I wrote:
>Besides, if Meiji was erected to honor those who dies in the war,
This is a mistake, it was Yasukuni Shrine what was to honor the war dead. My
Bust.
BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
KTKK wrote:
>No one said it should be "sacred" to YOU. It is, however, sacred to
>THEM, which makes it just as valid, and deserving of respect.
And where do I say in a previous post that I have not respected the Japanese
war dead? Please reference.
>It's kinda like saying that just because a heiau may be sacred to the
>Kanakas, why shuld it be sacred to you?
Agreed but not a good example. The state and federal government has proven
that heiaus are NOT sacred..........
>Does that make it OK to
>denounce their ways just because it does not coincide with your own?
Not it does not! I had never said nor done anything to proclaim the contrary.
No it does not.
>Of course it's significant...because it's disrespectful to THEM.
Yes it would have been IF (and a big IF) I had said anything to suggest any
disrespect.
>As for attacking Americans, yes, because the war was an attack AGAINST
>Americans, then yes, you need not have any empathy for those who fought
>in the war.
But I do have empathy. My blood relatives are among those who are honored by
that shrine.
>However, the shrine was not, nor was it ever intended to
>be, an ATTACK in any way shape or form against Americans, Americanism,
>or the country of the United States.
And where do you get this suggestion?
>It does not celebrate war, nor
>does it glorify what they did.
I agree
>YOU need not honor their dead...but at the same time, you need not
>desecrate them either.
>
>
Please, Please pray tell, show me where i am guilty of this.......
BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
michael wrote:
>Regardless of what your intentions were, you should at least get all
>your facts straight.
>
Considering the information contained in this entire thread, Please elaborate
where Ii do not have my "facts straight" regarding the use of the word
infamous..
> If your intended meaning was "of renown fame", your
>choice of words was poor because under standard usage it conveys a
>completely different meaning. If your intended meaning was "of renown
>fame", just say so and the misunderstanding is over. (but please choose
>your words more carefully in the future to avoid misunderstandings)
No, I expect others as well as you to have access to reference materials and I
also expect that you have did your research to the word meaning AND TO ASK ME
TO CLARIFY before you rake me over the coals assuming that I meant the negative
definition. In your own words, (Please choose your words more carefully to
avoid misunderstanding).
>My intention was to clear up some
>misunderstanding you may have about Meiji shrine so that you wouldn't
>continue to make the same mistake in the future. Meiji Shrine has
>absolutely nothing to do with those who died in war. That is Yasukuni
>Shrine. Meiji Shrine honors the Emperor Meiji. No one has suggested
>that Meiji shrine should be sacred to you.
This is my bust. I was wrong. You are correct. It was Yasukuni Shrine. (I
got it mixed up) But please look at this thread. I was not the one who
initiated the subject on Yasukuni, its meaning to the war dead as well as any
alledged sacrilegious statements. It was you. The Websters Dictionary that I
have DOES give a definition as "of renown fame". Therefore, I stand by my
original statement.
I asked:
>) Is the Washington Munument "infamous"? You tell me.
Utilizing the definition "of renown fame", yes, despite what kind of President
you think George Washington was, there is no question that he and the monument
honoring him is "infamous".
Your answer was:
>Certainly owning slaves would be considered by most people to be more
>disgraceful than anything Emperor Meiji ever did.
>
>
Still this does not answer my question.
BigNavyGuy
KKTK
BigNavyGuy wrote:
> No, I expect others as well as you to have access to reference materials and I
> also expect that you have did your research to the word meaning AND TO ASK ME
> TO CLARIFY before you rake me over the coals assuming that I meant the
I think you have made the same mistake I did when I used a svastik as a
sig, without explaining why I did so. I expected others to assume that
they would automatically KNOW the true meaning of it, and not associate
it with its nazi connotation.
I also waited for others to ASK before they start throwing accusations
at me...which was a BIG mistake. Consequently, I have had to delete my
sig time and again in this NG, all because I made certain
suppositions...that others would think as I do.
It's unwise to assume that people would have the same reference material
that you have access to. Not all of us here can automatically infer a
symbol/word's meaning, if that symbol/word already has a socially
established definition in common usage.
Therefore, BNG, for the sake of clarity...I am ASKING you...which
definition of "infamous" did you mean, when describing the shrine?
Ken
P.S. I know that this is OT...but I hope the mods will post this, and
his answer to my question...at least to clarify his meaning, and put
this thread to rest.
gi...@lava.net
In <nortle-895...@news.lava.net>, on 05/16/98
at 08:35 PM, mich...@lava.net said:
:It certainly doesn't say that in Webster's online edition
:http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary , where all the given meanings are
:distinctly negative. If your intended meaning was "of renown fame", your
:choice of words was poor because under standard usage it conveys a
:completely different meaning. If your intended meaning was "of renown
:fame", just say so and the misunderstanding is over. (but please choose
:your words more carefully in the future to avoid misunderstandings)
Perhaps you should change this thread to "Correct meanings and usage".
Because, when you argue the meaning of a single word, instead of focusing
on the issue, you have drifted off topic.
He explained his intended meaning. Perhaps you can carry on from there???
:> 3) That my posts are purely my personal opinion with no intent to
:> anger the
:> Japanese. Besides, if Meiji was erected to honor those who dies in
:> the war,
:> (which included an attack on my country), why should Meiji, then be
:> "sacred" to
:> me?.
:That may not have been your intent, but it is perfectly reasonable to
:expect as a consequence. My intention was to clear up some
:misunderstanding you may have about Meiji shrine so that you wouldn't
:continue to make the same mistake in the future. Meiji Shrine has
:absolutely nothing to do with those who died in war. That is Yasukuni
:Shrine. Meiji Shrine honors the Emperor Meiji. No one has suggested that
:Meiji shrine should be sacred to you. What I have suggested is that you
:should refrain from referring to it as infamous, which Webster defines
:as:
:> 1 : having a reputation of the worst kind
:> 2 : causing or bringing infamy :DISGRACEFUL
:> 3 : convicted of an offense bringing infamy
:None of which describes Meiji Shrine.
:> 4) Is the Washington Munument "infamous"? You tell me.
:Certainly owning slaves would be considered by most people to be more
:disgraceful than anything Emperor Meiji ever did.
It's good to find another "official spokesperson" for most people...
:
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
gi...@lava.net
-----------------------------------------------------------
zzzgk...@zzzcsi.com
As a full blooded, Okinawan-American I'd like to just clarify to
those of who who think that Naichi (Mainland Japanese) prejudice
against Okinawans are over should look at economic statistics.
Japan wanted Okinawan back from the US, and, as many Okinawans put it,
it was better to be part of Japan than to be treated like the
Americans treated Okinawans.
But currently, Okinawa has one of the highest rates of suicide in all
Japan. Why? Simple.Though Japan wanted Okinawa back, what they, like
the Americans, wanted was Okinawan land.
Okinawans thought Japanese tourism would bring jobs and money.
Instead, the Japanese prefer going to naichi build and manged hotels.
Last, lets not forget that Japan didn't fight its war on Japanese
soil. The battles were actually fought on Okinawa. Japanese troops
marched Okinawans off cliffs, to their deaths,b ecause it was better
to die for the Emperor than to be captured by the Aermcians. The
civilian casualty count of Okinawans is the hightest count of not only
WWII, but, I believe, many other battles.
In Hawaii, the reason Okinawans gained respect is, if I remember
properly, one of the first Asian American millionaries was a guy named
Shimabukuro. An Okinawan. Names probably wrong, but it was an Okinawan
nisei.
KKTK
You're talking about corportations and governments, not to mention the
military actions of years gone by.
Most of such companies, as I've mentioned, are run by those of the WW2
gen, or just after.
However, I said THIS generation...Gen X, do not have a negative view and
hatred of Okinawans, unlike the older genners.
Anyhoo...Nai'a is right. This thread doesn't belong here, and is
irrelevant.
I'll shut up now.
Ken
--
sig deleted
Charles Schmidling
Adrian L.K. O'Sullivan <kal...@soback.kornet.nm.kr> wrote in article
<nortle-895...@news.lava.net>...
[long interesting post snipped for space]
Most excellent explanation and commentary. A few years ago, my wife came
home from a graduate school class that had discussed this issue from a
general educators point of view. We discussed the subject a bit but you
have finally put it in a realm of understanding.
To reiterate, I hear you state that the hawaiian form of pidgin is no
longer a transitional language but an actual language (albeit simple) that
can stand on its own. And that most hawaiians could be considered somewhat
bi-lingual. Makes a lot of sense.
Some interesting questions, mostly involving pidgeon holing
(classification), arise. Can pidgin be classified with the creole of
Louisiana? Or other US regional dialects (eg. the South, the Southwest
with its spanish influences, Massachusetts. New York!). And where does it
relate to this "ebonics" thing. And should it be taught as an acredited
language course in school? Hmm.
> Norman Roberts wrote in message ...
> >Creolists would probably say that Hawaiian Pidgin is based on Hawaiian
> >syntactic patterns with English relexification. Speech rhythm and
> >intonation is mainly Hawaiian although Professor Edgar Knowlton
> >attempted to show a Portuguese influence.
One must remember that the portuguese spoke their native tongue when they
got to Hawai'i. Although I cannot come up with many examples of language
influence (printable anyway) there is still the food. Always the food.
Breads, soups, sausages - all Iberian of origin. Yumm.
But I do present these observations.
I have notice a peculiar portuguese bend to my own pidgin accent. Kinda of
the whiny hebrew tutu kine. Could be my Upcountry upbringing had something
to do with it. Which brings up what appears to be regional pidgin dialects
- island to island, area to area. Try this. What are your verses to Jan
Ken Po?
Another peculiarity is that I noticed locals of portuguese ancestry have
difficulty swithing to "General American" than most mainland transplants.
The grammar clears up a bit but that "lilt" is still there. You can really
tell! Nature or Nurture? Hmmm...
Just observations.
Charles
BigNavyGuy
zzzgkudaka wrote:
>Last, lets not forget that Japan didn't fight its war on Japanese
>soil. The battles were actually fought on Okinawa.
This is quite true. Japanese military experts claim that the surrender of
Imperial Japan to the United States right after the devasation at Hiroshima and
Nagasaki prevented a US LAND INVASION upon the Japanese homeland...thus
spearing millions of civilian casualties. This analysis denies the fact and
isnulting to Okinawans in that Okinawa-ken, those"country bumpkins" to the
south have been incorporated in the Japanese empire (forceably, similiar to how
Hawaii was incorporated into the US) since 1879. The Battle of Okinawa claimed
a full one-forth of the Okinawan civilians who were killed in the cross-fire
between the US and the invaders (Nachi troops) to from the north. Due to the
high casualty rate, it is probable that every Okinawan in Hawaii has lost a
relative in the Battle of Okinawa.
At the time of immigration to Hawaii, the issei from Okinawa immigrated as
Japanese subjects as they become such since 1879. However, they were not fully
accepted by immigrants from other parts of Japan as full-fledged fellow
Japanese. The probable cause of this was that Okinawa, the largest island of
the Ryukyu archepelego, has roots that date back to China and was called
L'iu-c'hu (Original Chinese pronouncation of the word Ryukyu). It is
interesting that most typical Okinawan names have Chinese, not Japanese roots.
For example, I once viewed a listing of Japanese American 442nd/100battlion
veterans of WWII, both from Hawaii as well the US mainland who were going to be
place on a WWII Monument honoring those who served fighting the Nazis (I was
looking for an uncles name). Anyway, one of the names was "Tengwan" (for those
who read Kanji, its written TEN=Tenno hei ka no Ten, GAN=Negau). In Hawaii,
this name is Tengan, a very typical Okinawan name, but the Chinese way of
prounoucing it was TEN GWAN. I would have supposed that this Okinawan family,
despite the mass "Japanizing" of family names by other Okinawans, stoodfast and
kept their original.
Other intersting examples are Miyashiro and Kaneshiro. These names are very
typical in the Hawaiian Islands but non existant in Okinawa anymore. Why? Due
to "Naichi-ism" in Okinawa, the name, Miyashiro, (Miya=palace, shiro=castle)
has been changed to a more "common" kanji usage to "Miyagi". (Miya stayed the
same, but the kanji for castle, most Japanese pronounce it as "gi" or "ki").
To complicate matters, another prononciation for castle is "jo". This is how
Kaneshiro was changed. Kaneshiro (Kane=gold/money shiro=castle) was once
pronounced Kanegusuku, (gusuku meaning castle in the original Okinawan
language. Kanegusuku was the original prononciation which came to the shores
of Hawaii). This name evolved to Kaneshiro, in both Hawaii and Okinawa at
around the beginning of the war. After the war, this name in Okinawa turned to
Kinjo". Kin is a naichi way of saying "gold", and jo=castle. In fact any name
that has a "shiro" in its prefix or suffix was originally pronounced "gusuku"
or "gushiku" Examples: Shiroma was Gusukuma or Gushikuma, Oshiro was Ogusuku
etc.
I said in a previous post that because the US Congress passed the Oriental
Exclusion Act in 1924 that distcontinued Asian immigration, (the US thought too
many "slant eyes" were immigrating). The Japanese community was "frozen in
time". The result of this is that natural evolution of culture change that
occured in Japan did not reach Hawaii's Japanese community. The above
discussion is a prime example.
BigNavyGuy
BigNavyGuy
Schmidling wrote:
>Another peculiarity is that I noticed locals of portuguese ancestry have
>difficulty swithing to "General American" than most mainland transplants.
>The grammar clears up a bit but that "lilt" is still there. You can really
>tell! Nature or Nurture? Hmmm...
Are you talking about the intentional "lilt" that Frank DeLima portrays when he
tells a potagee joke? This has to be nuture. To suggest that accent isa
result of nature (innate) forces me to believe that one can be born with an
accent. If this is true, than all Hawaii-born Filipinos would speak like (you
kow what I mean), since their bloodlines "demand" it.
BigNavyGuy