Anti-semitism in Greece
ozgur
Antisemitism World Report 1997 published by World ORT Union
GREECE
General background
The Panellinion Sosialistikon Kinema (PASOK, Pan-Hellenic Socialist
Movement) has been in power since the October 1993 general election. In
January 1996, PASOK founder and three-times prime minister Andreas
Papandreou relinquished the premiership. He died the following June. He
was replaced by Costas Simitis, a former PASOK cabinet minister and a
pro-European advocate, who called a general election in September and
won by popular mandate. The conservative Nea Demokratia (ND, New
Democracy) party leads the opposition under party chairman Miltiades
Evert. Election defeat, internal strife and leadership struggles
threaten the ND's unity.
Greece remains one of the poorest European Union (EU) countries in real
growth in gross domestic product (GDP), and in national debt as a
percentage of GDP. In 1996, inflation was contained to 8.3 per cent, but
unemployment, approaching 10 per cent, remained an important problem.
The encouraging inflation trends are largely attributed to EU-imposed
fiscal responsibility policies aimed at closing the gap between Greece
and other EU member states. Enforcement of these policies often became
the cause of strikes and public demonstrations in 1996.
Historical legacy
Jews have lived in Greece since the third cen-tury BCE. Several thousand
Jews arrived in the country in the late fifteenth century after their
expulsion from Spain. The Ottoman Empire, which had conquered all of the
territory that now constitutes modern Greece, became a haven of
religious tolerance for Jews fleeing the Inquisition, and Salonika was
soon to become a major Sephardic cultural centre.
Jews occupied administrative posts and played a pivotal role in
intellectual life and commercial activity throughout the empire. Their
support for the Ottoman Empire led to poor relations with the Christian
Orthodox Greeks and during the Greek War of Independence (1821-9),
several thousand Jews were massacred.
Following the exodus of Greeks from Asia Minor in 1922-3 and their
resettlement on the Greek mainland, substantial economic com-petition
developed between the Jews and the newly arrived refugees. In the tense
climate that arose, the Jewish district of Kampel in Salonika was burned
in 1931. The perpetrators were never found, although they were suspected
of belonging to the fascist Ethniki Enosis Ellas (EEE, National Union of
Greece).
In 1941 Greece was occupied by German troops, who deported more than
65,000 Jews (roughly 92 per cent of the country's Jewish population) to
concentration camps in 1943, despite the protests of Greek intellectual
and religious leaders. Though some Greeks denounced Jews to the German
occupiers or looted their properties following the deportations, many
others risked their lives to hide Jews or provide them with false
identities.
Despite the near-annihilation of the Jewish community in Greece during
the Second World War, antisemitism continued to be present in Greek
society in the ensuing years. The socialist party PASOK, in power since
1981, harboured much of that sentiment. Front-page headlines in
pro-socialist papers compared Israel to the Nazis during the Israeli
invasion of Lebanon, calling them "worthy descendants of Hitler", while
a state-controlled radio programme called for the boycott of Jewish
shops. Antisemitic attacks were hidden behind anti-Zionism, and, on at
least one occasion, a socialist MP went so far as to blame "the Jews,
the Masons, the CIA, and Moshe Dayan" for the 1967 military coup in
Greece, and was heartily applauded in parliament.
The only antisemitic party to ever gain parliamentary representation was
Christianiki Demokratia (Christian Democracy) in 1985. This is a
religious-based party whose leader, Nikos Psaroudakis, also translated
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion into Greek.
Much of the high-profile antisemitism has subsided since diplomatic
relations with Israel were improved by former New Democracy prime
minister Constantine Mitsotakis, in spite of PASOK's return to power in
1993.
Racism and xenophobia
The US department of state annual report on human rights has described
how discrimination against minorities continued to be a problem during
1996.
There are a number of minority communities in Greece, including Turks,
Pomaks, Roma, ethnic Albanians and "Macedonians" or "Slavomacedonians".
Many are fully integrated into Greek society, although the only minority
the government formally recognizes is the "Muslim minority" referred to
in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne. In northern Greece there are a number of
citizens descended from Slavs or Slavophones. A small number of them who
identify themselves as belonging to a distinct Macedonian" ethnic group
face harassment and intimidation by the government. The government
believes that those who claim to be members of a "Macedonian" minority
may have separatist aspirations.
It has been estimated that there are around 300,000 Roma in Greece. They
face poverty, illiteracy and social prejudice, although government
policy is to encourage their integration.
During 1996 the government continued to use article 19 of the
Citizenship Code to revoke the citizenship of Greek citizens who were
not ethnically Greek and who left the country. This was mainly used
against Muslims from Western Thrace. The government also used article 20
of the code to revoke the citizenship of Greek citizens abroad who
as-serted a "Macedonian" ethnicity. Article 20 permits the government to
strip citizenship from those who "commit acts contrary to the interests
of Greece for the benefit of a foreign state".
In November a migrant bill was introduced by the government to tighten
immigration controls, amid concerns that the arrival of 500,000
immigrants had provoked racism. The proposed legislation was criticized
by trade unions as being xenophobic. Under the new law immigrants would
be granted six-month permits to live and work in Greece upon ar-rival,
and this would be renewed only if the authorities deemed that the labour
market demanded it. Also in November, the Greek parliament began
debating a new law on political refugees, with a reluctance to grant
asylum to migrants.
Parties, organizations, movements
The Enieo Ethnikistiko Kinema (ENEK, United Nationalist Movement) was
founded in 1979 and, though politically inactive, it maintains a
bookshop and publishing house in Athens called Nea Thesis (New Position)
operated by John Schinas. The bookstore carries a broad array of
antisemitic books.
Ethniko Metopo (National Front), foun-ded in 1987 and led by M. Konstas,
has in the past circulated in Athens a large number of leaflets and
stickers with antisemitic slogans. It publishes the magazine Metopo
(Front), while its youth organization, led by Dimitris Artzetakis,
publishes Nea Tassis (New Tendency).
Laikos Syndesmos/Chryssi Avghi (Popular League/Golden Dawn), founded in
1981, is led by Nikolaos Michaloliakos. It is a neo-Nazi organization
with strong antisemitic, xenophobic and Ultra-nationalist views. It
publishes the monthly Chryssi Avghi , widely distributed in Athens, and
a weekly newspaper of the same name. The group has opened of-fices in
many Greek cities and in recent years has increased both its visibility
and activities. However, the far right's recent history of electoral
failures continued through the 1996 legislative elections.
Chryssi Avghi is known to have ties with far-right groups in many
countries, including Pamyat in Russia, CEDADE in Spain, Front national
in France and the AWB in South Africa (see Russia Spain, France, South
Africa).
Many other small far-right groups with antisemitic beliefs exist in
Greece, though their activity is minimal.
Mainstream politics
Expressions of antisemitism in mainstream politics have become less
common in Greece, although one notable incident was covered by the press
in November 1996. New Democracy (ND) MP George Karatzaferis challenged
the appointment of Professor Christos Rozakis to the post of deputy
foreign minister, on the grounds that Rozakis was of Jewish descent,
questionable loyalty and therefore unfit to occupy such a post. Although
Karatzaferis was generally condemned for his statement, there was
virtually no reaction on the part of his fellow ND MPs. Rozakis, a
moderate who favours a Greco-Turkish détente, retained his position for
less than two months after the incident, when he resigned over policy
disputes with PASOK cabinet ministers. The incident was reminiscent of
one in 1981, when PASOK MPs suggested that Raphael Moissis, a Greek Jew
appointed as director of the state-owned power company, had secretly
served twice as an officer in the Israeli army, and that he was
"unsuitable to run even the least important public enterprise, let alone
the strategically significant power company".
Furthermore, mainstream political parties fail to acknowledge the
existence of antisemitism in various areas of Greek society. No
reference was made to Greek antisemitism during a ceremony commemorating
the fif-tieth anniversary of the Holocaust, even though George
Papandreou, son of the late premier and then Greek education and
religious affairs minister, stated that Greeks are "always opposed to
racism and religious discrimination".
Manifestations
The most common manifestation of antisemitism in Greece has long been
antisemitic graffiti. Spray-painted swastikas and neo-Nazi symbols are
not infrequent in many neighbourhoods of Athens and other Greek cities.
Slogans with specific references to Jews are less frequent, but still
visible.
A memorial erected in memory of the deportation of the Jews of Kastoria
was daubed in the city in October 1996. The daubing occurred a day after
the memorial had been dedicated and at the same time, antisemitic
graffiti were reported elsewhere in the city. There are few such
memorials in public places in Greece and where they do exist they have
often been vandalized (for example, a memorial to the Jews of Lianokladi
was smashed in 1989). In 1996 the street signs marking Jewish Martyrs'
Square in Salonika were repeatedly defaced. In November ten Greek
neo-Nazis displayed a swastika at the Acropolis in Athens. They were
rounded up by police and later released.
Education
For more than a decade the Central Jewish Board of Greece (CJB), an
independent governing body of the Jewish Communities in Greece, also
affiliated to the ministry of education and religious affairs, has
protested at the presence of several antisemitic passages in
state-issued school textbooks. Although two such passages were removed
in 1994, and the ministry of education has agreed to delete all
antisemitic references in new editions of the books, several references
remain.
Publications and media
In the past, many of the mainstream news-papers in Greece, for example
the daily Avriani , have printed antisemitic articles, including
accusations that Jews are agents of "foreign interests" or responsible
for forest fires. There are, however, some newspapers that engage in
antisemitism as a matter of policy. The following antisemitic or
anti-Zionist publications have low print runs, but their wide
availability and distribution in religious and army circles make their
circulation considerable.
Stochos (Target) is a far-right weekly newspaper published by Georgios
Kapsalis. In the 1970s and 1980s the paper questioned the allegiance of
Greek Jews to Greece, accused them of leading the young to homosexuality
and drugs, and called the Jewish festival of Chanukah a "celebration of
hatred against Greeks". In 1994, the paper printed a serialization of
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. In recent years Stochos has been
forced to publish apologies under the threat of legal action by the CJB,
but it continues to disseminate antisemitic propaganda.
Other antisemitic papers include Grigoris Michalopoulos's Eleftheri Ora
(Free Time), which has become
mainstream, and Nei Anthropi (New People), which published the
front-page article "Jewish Human Sacrifice" in January 1982.
Ultra-religious publications, such as those published under the auspices
of Orthodoxos Typos (Orthodox Press), commonly attack the Jews.
Orthodoxos Typos also publishes books that are available at Athens
bookstores. Smaller religious organizations, like St Agathangelos
Esfigmenites and Kosmas Flamiatos, issue publications with similar
propaganda.
Hundreds of antisemitic books are available at many bookshops in Athens
and other cities-from translated neo-Nazi books and classic anti-Zionist
propaganda to original works by notorious Greek antisemites, such as
Kyriakos Diakoyiannis's "The Human Piranhas", and Ioannis Fourakis's
"Jews the Forgers of History". Most common is The Protocols of the
Elders of Zion , available in dozens of editions and translations; the
book's extensive distribution and popularity were featured in an
editorial in the Sunday edition of the daily Eleftherotypia (Freedom of
the Press) in September 1995. The feature did comment that the Protocols
is a notorious forgery.
Several private television channels have become a forum for antisemitic
propaganda. Eleftheri Ora and Nei Anthropi editor Grigoris Michalopoulos
is also the owner of Tele-Tora (Tele-Now), which has been
broadcasting in Athens for five years. It has hosted the notorious
antisemites Kostas Plevris, a Holocaust-denier and neo-fascist who has
questioned Jews' loyalty to Greece, and Maria Douraki, a popular singer
turned evangelist, who openly refers to the Jews as the anti-Christ.
Some ND political figures, such as the MP Maria Giannakou-Koutsikou,
have also made appearances on Tele-Tora.
Plevris has his own show on Tele-City, another television station, and
often includes antisemitic outbursts as part of his nationalist forum.
Finally, Vassilis Levendis, leader of the tiny Enossis Kendroon (EK,
Centrist Union) party, is the owner and presenter of Channel 67, and has
often attacked Jews personally or hosted other antisemites, including
Greek Orthodox priests.
In May 1996, the CJB accused the writer and Greek ambassador to UNESCO
Vassilis Vassilikos of
antisemitism, following the publication of an article in the national
pro-government newspaper Ta Nea (The News). The article voiced concern
over military co-operation between Greece and Turkey and the author
stated that he could not stop himself from wondering "about those who
crucified one of their own people".
Religion
The Christian Orthodox church has long played a pivotal role in Greek
society: not only is 98 per cent of the population Greek Orthodox, but a
1995 European Commission poll confirmed that Greeks are the most
religious of all EU member-state citizens.
The church has never officially condoned antisemitism, but many within
its ranks have. Augustinos, the
Metropolitan of Corinth, wrote an antisemitic book entitled "Jews and
Christians" (1980), in which he stated that Jews "suck the blood of the
people" and cited The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a source. The
metropolitans of Chalkis, Florina, Hydra and many others have also
engaged in antisemitic attacks. Religious sermons perpetuate the image
of Jews as Christ-killers, and customs such as the burning of Judas in
effigy are still practised in rural areas. Many monasteries engage in
the distribution of antisemitic propaganda. The church claims that it
cannot control the actions of "administratively independent"
metropolitans and others within its ranks. Although it condemns
antisemitism officially, there is little doubt that many in the Orthodox
church's midst, from high-ranking officials to village priests, continue
to promote antisemitism and intolerance.
Holocaust denial
Books and articles denying the Holocaust are available in Greece.
Authors include well-known foreign
Holocaust-deniers Robert Faurisson (see France) and Richard Harwood as
well as local writers such as Kostas Plevris and John Schinas (see
PARTIES, ORGANIZATIONS, MOVEMENTS and PUBLICATIONS AND MEDIA). In 1996
Schinas published an article in one of his own periodical publications,
which alleged Jews have an "eternal hatred against our [the Greek]
nation".
In November 1996 the French Holocaust-denier and antisemite Roger
Garaudy (see France) visited Greece to promote his book Les mythes
fondateurs de la politique israélienne (Founding Myths of Israeli
Politics). The book, translated into Greek and published by Schinas's
Nea Thesis publications, sold a few thousand copies in Greece. Although
Garaudy's views were widely condemned by the Greek press, he did have
some supporters, two of whom made their support for him public in the
daily newspaper Ethnos (Nation). One editor-ial stated that those
concerned by Garaudy's views belong to the "suspect international Jewish
lobby, which uses its slimy tactics to express its eternal complex
throughout the world".
Opinion polls
Although an opinion poll published in the newspaper Ependitis (Investor)
in June 1996 did not specifically isolate the case of Jews, its more
general findings confirmed Greek xenophobia and racism towards Roma,
Albanians and other minority groups.
Legal matters
Laws against incitement to racial, national and religious
discrimination, hatred or violence exist in Greece but have rarely been
enforced. Greek courts appear to have upheld the notion that references
to "Jews" are not specific enough, and that only persons attacked by
name can seek legal recourse.
In 1996 Greece was found to have violated article 9 of the European
Convention by insisting on including its citizens' religious affiliation
on state-issued identity cards. The case was heard at the European Court
of Human Rights, which concluded that "Greece took measures restricting
citizens' religious freedom that were beyond those necessary in a
democratic society".
Countering antisemitism
The government approved the construction of a memorial for the 48,000
victims of the Holocaust in Salonika. The ministry of culture originally
put up some Dr. 20 million and solicited ideas from local sculptors.
However, there was no entry that satisfied either the artistic or
financial requirements. Subsequently, the budget was doubled and the
competition opened up abroad. A design has not yet been accepted for the
memorial, which will stand in Jewish Martyrs' Square. Proposals for a
Jewish folk and history museum and a privately funded Holocaust museum
are also being considered.
Assessment
Antisemitism in 1996 did not pose an immediate threat to the Jewish
population of Greece; nevertheless, there is reason for concern.
Nationalism and xenophobia have risen substantially in the country, and
were largely fuelled by rising tensions with Turkey and the attribution
of crime rate increases to the influx of "foreigners" (mainly
Albanians). Throughout the year far-right activists exploited
nationalist issues to gain a forum in mainstream politics. Widespread
religious prejudice further contributes to the public's view of the Jews
as a "foreign" entity.
Opinion poll findings over the years have consistently shown the dislike
and resentment that the majority of Greeks feel towards the Jews,
suggesting that antisemitic propaganda may fall on sympathetic ears or
be met with indifference rather than alarm. Neither political nor
religious leaders seem willing to reform the educational system,
religious teachings or the deeply rooted misconceptions about the Jewish
community aggravated by expressions of antisemitism in some of the
private media, thus making an improvement in the status quo difficult.
© JPR 1997
http://www.ort.org/jpr/AWRweb/Europe/greece.htm
Agamemnon
ozgur wrote in message <357857C4...@ultranet.com>...
>Antisemitism World Report 1997 published by World ORT Union
>
>GREECE
>
>General background
>
JEWISH COMMUNITY: THE TURKISH ALLEGATIONS ARE INACCURATE
Web Posted: 16:02 GMT+2
_Thessaloniki 10 January (MPA)_
The Jewish Community in Thessaloniki with a statement it has issued
characterizes as inaccurate the positions expressed by the Turkish
foreign
ministry regarding the stance of the Greek people toward the Jews during
the Nazi occupation.
The statement points out that the Greek people almost to their entirety
headed by the Church, the national resistance and the security forces
showed solidarity to their Jewish brothers, in many cases risking their
lives.
This solidarity, continues the statement, has been expressed very
strongly
and in the most formal way with the document dated March 22, 1943 which
was
addressed to the German occupation forces and was co-signed by
Archbishop
Damaskinos and the presidents of 29 local organizations.
... Central Jewish Council rebukes Ankara's allegations
------------------------------------------------------------
Athens, 10/1/1998 (ANA)
Greeks offered as much help as possible to persecuted Jews
during the Nazi occupation, the Central Jewish Council of Greece
emphasized in an announcement yesterday, responding to claims by
the Turkish foreign ministry on Thursday.
The neighboring country's foreign ministry claimed that Greek
authorities during World War II "gladly handed over Jews" to
German troops.
"In the bleak days of the Nazi occupation, the Christian Greeks
of the cities and villages, putting their lives at risk, and the
national resistance in the mountains, protected and helped as
much as possible our persecuted people," the announcement stated.
"The Central Jewish Council of Greece, which represents the
whole of Greek Jewry, has repeatedly expressed its grateful
position to the Greek people and the Greek Orthodox Church for
their contribution to saving Greek Jews," it added.
The Council reiterated its views to Foreign Minister Theodoros
Pangalos, whom they visited yesterday afternoon.
Greece entered WWII on Oct. 28, 1940. After its fall to axis
troops in April 1941, it was occupied by German, Italian and
Bulgarian forces until October 1944, while Crete was liberated
in 1945.
... Greek Jews dispute Ankara's quips
-----------------------------------------
Athens, 12/01/1998 (ANA)
In addition, Jewish groups of Greece again on Saturday rejected
the accusations made by the Turkish foreign ministry.
Thessaloniki Jewish community president Andreas Sefiha told ANA
that Greek Jews were grateful to their fellow citizens for the
assistance against Nazi persecution, citing resistance by
government officials as well as the help of ordinary citizens.
The northern Greece Jewish leader cited his own personal
experience during WWII, in which his whole family was saved by
the intervention of Greek Christians, while he declared surprise
at the Turkish statement, saying that it was "at best,
inaccurate".
Thessaloniki was a major Sephardic metropolis since the very
early 16th century, boasting a more than 50,000-strong community
prior to Nazi occupation. During WWII, most of city's Jews were
transported to concentration camps in Germany and Poland where
they perished.
Jewish Museum of Greece to open next week
Athens, 7/3/1998 (ANA)
The Jewish Museum of Greece, whose collections chronicle the relatively
unknown and insufficiently documented 2,300-year history of the Greek
Jews,
opens to the public next week in its newly-acquired own premises.
Housed in a neoclassical building on 39 Nikis Street in Plaka, the 800
sq.m.
museum will be inaugurated Tuesday night in a formal ceremony attended
by
Culture Minister Evangelos Venizelos, Education Minister Gerasimos
Arsenis
and Athens Mayor Dimitris A vramopoulos.
Now the third-largest Jewish museum in Europe, the museum's 7,000
artefacts,
documents and photographs are divided into nine thematic entities
exhibited
on the nine levels of the building surrounding an octagonal atrium with
a
clear glass dome at the to p letting ample natural light into the
building's
interior.
Most of the exhibits in the museum's collection have been acquired from
the
28 Jewish communities that thrived in various parts of Greece prior to
World
War II.
The museum documents the history of the early Greek-speaking Jews, or
"Romaniote", from the first Jewish immigration in Phoenician times --
when
Jewish communities flourished in much of the Mediterranean -- to the
arrival
of the Sephardim, or Spanish Je ws, after their expulsion from Spain by
the
Holy Inquisition in 1492, to the Holocaust and the present, tracing the
historical, religious and social history of the Greek Jewish community.
A gallery of related exhibits has been set up in memory of the 70,000
Greek
Jews who perished in the Holocaust and in honor of the numerous
Christian
Greeks who helped many others to survive.
The first written evidence of the establishment of Jews in Greece comes
from
an inscription discovered in Oropos, Attica, dating to circa 300-250
B.C.,
which refers to a Jew from Beotia named Moschos Moschionos.
It is believed that the first Jews arriving in Greece came as slaves
sold by
the various conquerors of Judaea to neighbouring nations.
NY event focuses on experiences of Greek Jews during WWII
--------------------------------------------------------------
New York, 20/01/1998 (ANA - M. Georgiadou)
A three-day event dedicated to the history, culture and
experiences of Greek Jews heard detailed accounts over the
weekend on how dozens of ordinary Greek individuals, clergymen
and officials sheltered their fellow Jewish citizens from
occupying Nazis forces during World War II.
The event was organized by the Sephardic House in New York City.
University of Cincinnati Jewish studies professor Steve Bowman
and writer Michael Matsas, both of whom visit Greece regularly
and have kept in touch with the people or the descendants of
those who sheltered their relatives during the war, attributed
the fact that Greek Jews suffered the greatest mortality rate at
the hands of Nazi forces and their satellites (96 per cent)
among all occupied Europe to the stand of the allies,
particularly Britain and to a lesser extent the US.
They claimed that despite possessing reliable information that
Hitler had already signed the Jews' persecution in 1941, they
did not warn them, letting them hope that the "storm of
persecutions" would abate.
Mr. Matsas, born in Yiannena in 1930, and author of 'The
Illusion of Safety' expressed anger at the fact that "the
enemies of the Nazis refused to warn Greek Jews, and indeed, on
many occasions impeded their salvation".
On the contrary, Greek resistance groups, the National
Liberation Front (EAM) and partisans of its army (ELAS), warned
Greek Jews and offered them refuge, he added.
The event was also attended by Israeli Vice-Consul Schmell Ben
Schmell, who thanked Athens for its interest in the Jewish
community and for the presence of President of the Republic
Kostis Stephanopoulos and Prime Minister Costas Simitis at the
inauguration of a Holocaust Monument in Thessaloniki as well as
for their support for the opening of Jewish museums in Athens
and Rhodes.
ozgur
A battered wife will also often refuse to blame her husband. Listen to the
international organizations. What they are saying ain't pretty.
Ozgur
Agamemnon wrote:
> JEWISH COMMUNITY: THE TURKISH ALLEGATIONS ARE INACCURATE
>
> Web Posted: 16:02 GMT+2
>
> _Thessaloniki 10 January (MPA)_
>
[The rest snipped]
ozgur
A battered wife will also often refuse to blame her husband. Listen to the
international organizations. What they are saying ain't pretty.
Ozgur
Agamemnon wrote:
> JEWISH COMMUNITY: THE TURKISH ALLEGATIONS ARE INACCURATE
>
> Web Posted: 16:02 GMT+2
>
> _Thessaloniki 10 January (MPA)_
>
[The rest snipped]
Unknown
PASOK has indeed promoted Quadaafyism and anti-Semitism, but
not ND. PASOK has also promoted old calendar groups in order to
weaken the hold of the church in Greece and many of the old cals have
adopted the anti-Semitism as well. Their thinking is that there are
more Arab votes at the UN and that there might still be Greek
commercial interests (esp textile & petroleum preprocessing) in Arab
countries left over from British colonial times. As Greek commercial
interests switch over to the Black Sea instead, this should
subside. However, there is also concern over how Orthodox Arabs (an
ever shrinking minority which in some places used to be a majority)
are treated.
But the Greek record in WW2, outside of Thessaloniki is
comparable to the Nordic countries. Thessaloniki was a sad but
special case - the Turks promoted the conflict for centuries and the
Jews were segragated (they were brought from the Spanish Inquisition
because they supposedly aided the Moor occupation), spoke a different
language (Ladino) and dressed differently. When the authorities in
Athens heard about this, they immediately began issuing false identity
papers to Jews in still unoccupied soil. The other Jews of Greece were
there from ancient times (eg St Paul was a Greek Jew) and were
assimilated and easier to hide.
I know of no adult living in Athens during WW2 who didn't do
something to help hide Jews. The sad irony is that most of today's
anti-Semitism seems to come from Greeks whose families had almost no
contact with the Jews who once lived in Greece. Also, many Fanariots
resented the Jews because they competed with them for Turkish
administrative positions.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian http://WWW.Dorsai.Org/~vjp2
vjp2@{MCIMail.Com|CompuServe.Com|Dorsai.Org}
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
ozgur
In general, your post is very good except that
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
> PASOK has indeed promoted Quadaafyism and anti-Semitism, but
> not ND. PASOK has also promoted old calendar groups in order to
> weaken the hold of the church in Greece and many of the old cals have
> adopted the anti-Semitism as well. Their thinking is that there are
> more Arab votes at the UN and that there might still be Greek
> commercial interests (esp textile & petroleum preprocessing) in Arab
> countries left over from British colonial times. As Greek commercial
> interests switch over to the Black Sea instead, this should
> subside. However, there is also concern over how Orthodox Arabs (an
> ever shrinking minority which in some places used to be a majority)
> are treated.
> But the Greek record in WW2, outside of Thessaloniki is
> comparable to the Nordic countries. Thessaloniki was a sad but
> special case - the Turks promoted the conflict for centuries and the
> Jews were segragated (they were brought from the Spanish Inquisition
Blaming the Greek transgressions in Thessalonica on the Turks just doesn't wash.
Are you saying that the Turks governed Jewish and Greek subjects in Thessalonica
together in peace from the 15th century to almost the 20th century, no conflicts
arose between the two , the Turks left the region, several decades later, the
Greeks suddenly had a problem with the Jews and it is all the Turks' fault????
Saying that the Turks promoted a conflict between the Greeks and the Jews is
utterly false! This can't be further from the truth!
> because they supposedly aided the Moor occupation), spoke a different
> language (Ladino) and dressed differently. When the authorities in
> Athens heard about this, they immediately began issuing false identity
> papers to Jews in still unoccupied soil. The other Jews of Greece were
> there from ancient times (eg St Paul was a Greek Jew) and were
> assimilated and easier to hide.
> I know of no adult living in Athens during WW2 who didn't do
> something to help hide Jews. The sad irony is that most of today's
> anti-Semitism seems to come from Greeks whose families had almost no
> contact with the Jews who once lived in Greece. Also, many Fanariots
> resented the Jews because they competed with them for Turkish
> administrative positions.
It is not surprising to hear that the Greeks who had almost no contact with Jews
are more likely to engage in anti-semitism. In fact, the problem between the
Turks and the Greeks has gotten worse as the generation who lived side by side
with each other has passed away and the new generation in both countries knows
only secondhand information about the other side. In the years to come, the loss
of diversity and the increasing homogeneity in the Balkans will continue to exact
a terribly high price from both nations.
Ozgur
Alban Mosher
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
> Their thinking is that there are more Arab votes at the UN and that there might
> still be Greek commercial interests (esp textile & petroleum preprocessing) in
> Arab countries left over from British colonial times.
To be pro-Arab as opposed to being pro-Jewish or pro-Israel does not make one an
Anti-Semite. On the contrary the Arabs are Semites, perhaps even more so than
most of the modern Jews can claim.
My parish priest is Fr. Michael Akoul, and he is fully Arabic in his ancestry, so
I don't think you will want to call him an anti-semite.
Your unworthy servant,
Reader Alban Mosher
St. Catherine of Sinai Greek Orthodox Church
St. Louis, Missouri
pythia
Alban Mosher wrote:
>
> Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
>
> > Their thinking is that there are more Arab votes at the UN and that there might
> > still be Greek commercial interests (esp textile & petroleum preprocessing) in
> > Arab countries left over from British colonial times.
>
> To be pro-Arab as opposed to being pro-Jewish or pro-Israel does not make one an
> Anti-Semite. On the contrary the Arabs are Semites, perhaps even more so than
> most of the modern Jews can claim.
Is this a fact?
>
> My parish priest is Fr. Michael Akoul, and he is fully Arabic in his ancestry, so
> I don't think you will want to call him an anti-semite.
>
> Your unworthy servant, (can I quote you?)
> Reader Alban Mosher
> St. Catherine of Sinai Greek Orthodox Church
> St. Louis, Missouri
yeah right...and when was the last time YOU heard the term
"antisemitism" referring to anything other than anti Jewish? Everyone
knows exactly what this term means.
Pythia
--
"And the Lady, Leto, was happy,
The son She made was strong, and an archer."
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp
Redbeard
Wonderfull article.
Do you have anything on the Kurds? Curious........
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
pythia <kin...@erols.com> wrote:
: Alban Mosher wrote:
:> To be pro-Arab as opposed to being pro-Jewish or pro-Israel does not
:> make one an Anti-Semite. On the contrary the Arabs are Semites,
:> perhaps even more so than most of the modern Jews can claim.
:
: Is this a fact?
Yes it is, you uneducated primate! The Arabs are a Semitic people, while
the modern "Israelis" are largely composed of ethnic Europeans
(non-Semitic) who subscribe to the Jewish faith.
:> My parish priest is Fr. Michael Akoul, and he is fully Arabic in his ancestry, so
:> I don't think you will want to call him an anti-semite.
:>
:> Your unworthy servant, (can I quote you?)
:> Reader Alban Mosher
:> St. Catherine of Sinai Greek Orthodox Church
:> St. Louis, Missouri
:
: yeah right...and when was the last time YOU heard the term
: "antisemitism" referring to anything other than anti Jewish? Everyone
: knows exactly what this term means.
"Everyone" might be the ignorant American public, much like yourself.
"Holocaust" is also usually "reserved" for use only by the Jews, but that
(Hellenic) word can and does get applied for various (historical) events.
: Pythia
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
pythia
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos wrote:
>
> Yes it is, you uneducated primate! The Arabs are a Semitic people, while
> the modern "Israelis" are largely composed of ethnic Europeans
> (non-Semitic) who subscribe to the Jewish faith.
This is a totally subjective statement. What do you base this on?
> :
> : yeah right...and when was the last time YOU heard the term
> : "antisemitism" referring to anything other than anti Jewish? Everyone
> : knows exactly what this term means.
>
> "Everyone" might be the ignorant American public, much like yourself.
I can see by your charming response you are clearly a charm school
graduate. Can you find me one instance where this term was used to
discribe anti Arab sentiment?
ozgur
pythia wrote:
> Alban Mosher wrote:
> >
> > To be pro-Arab as opposed to being pro-Jewish or pro-Israel does not make one an
> > Anti-Semite. On the contrary the Arabs are Semites, perhaps even more so than
> > most of the modern Jews can claim.
>
> Is this a fact?
Yes, technically Alban Mosher is right. Both Arabs and Hebrews are of Semitic
background. Alban is saying that Arabs are perhaps more Semitic than Jews probably
because most Askenazi Jews of Eastern Europe and even possibly some Sephardim of the
Balkans were heavily mixed with other races to presumably reduce the Semitic component
of their ethic identity. However, Arabs are more likely to have retained their Semitic
background.
> > My parish priest is Fr. Michael Akoul, and he is fully Arabic in his ancestry, so
> > I don't think you will want to call him an anti-semite.
> >
> > Your unworthy servant, (can I quote you?)
> > Reader Alban Mosher
> > St. Catherine of Sinai Greek Orthodox Church
> > St. Louis, Missouri
>
> yeah right...and when was the last time YOU heard the term
> "antisemitism" referring to anything other than anti Jewish? Everyone
> knows exactly what this term means.
The term "anti-semitic" has over the years come to mean "anti-Jewish" but technically
the word "anti-semitic" means "Anti-Arab" and "anti-Hebrew" combined. It seems like
the term "anti-semitic" was borne out of a necessity to coin a phrase which would carry
the connotation of anti-Jewish" yet without using the word "Jewish". When it was first
used in North America in the 19th century to describe discrimination against Jews,
since there were no Arab immigrants there at the time, it made some sense. However,
this term becomes truly inadequate in this age when ignorant news anchors mention the
rising tide of anti-semitism [sic] in the Arabic World ! ??
> Pythia
> --
> "And the Lady, Leto, was happy,
> The son She made was strong, and an archer."
> http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp
Ozgur
Redbeard
ozgur wrote:
>
> A battered wife will also often refuse to blame her husband. Listen to the
> international organizations. What they are saying ain't pretty.
What you are looking for is the "Battered Wife Syndrom". Individuals
and communities are different entities. Crowed psychology is much
different than individual psychology. If you dont understand the
difference its what a lot of people are saying as what happened and why
vs. what you say of what happened and why.
International organizations ie. Amnesty International are also saying a
lot of bad things about a lot of people. When was the last time that
Greece made international news about an active campaign against peoples
that live within its borders? Please if you do have this information I
will be happy to see it.
To all the denizens of soc.culture.turkish, I apologize for the cross
posting.
Marina
ozgur wrote in message <357857C4...@ultranet.com>...
>Antisemitism World Report 1997 published by World ORT Union
Turkey
Total population: 64 million
Jewish population: 25,000 (23,500 in Istanbul)
General background
Following the December 1995 elections, in which the Islamist Refah Partisi
(RP, Welfare Party) emerged as the largest parliamentary group, an unstable
coalition government was established in February between two centre-right
groups, namely the Anatavan Partisi (ANAP, Motherland Party), led by Mesut
Yilmaz, and the Dogru Yol Partisi (DYP, True Path Party), led by Tansu
Ciller. The collapse of the coalition in June led to the formation of a new
coalition between the DYP and RP. Necmettin Erbakan, the RP's leader, was
appointed the first Islamist prime minister in the republic's history, with
Ciller as deputy prime minister and foreign minister. ANAP became the main
opposition party in the 550-member national assembly.
Within months of taking office, Erbakan provoked western criticism by
visiting Iranp;where he signed a major deal to buy natural gas-Nigeria,
Iraq and Libya. Despite the RP's commitment to carrying out Islamic reforms
in the political, social and economic spheres, Erbakan agreed to maintain
the pro-western and pro-European foreign policies of the previous
government, and to preserve the secularist reforms instituted by Kemal
Ataturk in the 1920s. Turkey maintained close ties with the USA, implemented
the European customs union signed in December 1995 and renewed efforts to
apply for full membership of the European Union.
In February, the RP-led government also signed a defence agreement with
Israel providing for joint military training and exercises. Following
President Suleyman Demirel's visit to Israel in March, Israeli president
Ezer Weizmann visited Turkey in June and a group of Turkish
parliamentarians, including RP representatives, travelled to Israel in
November.
Erbakan's government maintained economic policies similar to those of his
predecessors, including the privatization programme. Imports increased by
over 50 per cent during the year, largely as a result of the European
customs union. Nonetheless, high inflation-about 80 per cent-persisted and
unemployment remained at around 15 per cent.
The issue of human rights remained high on the public agenda in 1996. The
government was unable to sustain improvements made in the previous year.
According to reports published in the western media, violations were
particularly acute in the south-east of the country, where security forces
continued to engage in armed conflict with the separatist organization
Partia Karkeren Kurdistan (PKK, Kurdistan Workers' Party).
Historical legacy
The ancestors of the present-day Jewish community came to the Ottoman Empire
after their expulsion from Spain in 1492, although there were Jewish
settlements in various parts of Anatolia under Roman and Byzantine rule.
Jews enjoyed relatively comfortable conditions under the protection of the
Ottoman administration. Police intervened to quell outbreaks of violence
against Jews, which were provoked in Smyrna (Izmir) in 1872 and
Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1874, when Greeks and Armenians hid Christian
children at Easter and accused Jews of stealing them.
In 1872 a synagogue on the island of Marmara was destroyed. During this
period Jews also became victims of blood libel accusations. Nevertheless,
Ottoman sultans always issued fermans (decrees) condemning such accusations.
In one reported case in Constantinople in 1870, Jewish merchants were forced
to open their sacks to prove that they did not contain Christian children.
After the establishment of the Turkish republic in 1923, the constitution
provided for equal rights for Jews and other religious minorities. There has
been little antisemitism since then, except during the Second World War,
when neutral Turkey imposed some discriminatory measures, such as welfare
tax, against the non-Muslim minorities, including the Jewish community.
During the Second World War, Turkey maintained its neutrality and served as
a corridor of safe passage for many Jews fleeing Nazism. Since the 1960s
antisemitic articles have appeared in the Turkish press, particularly in
Islamist publications.
In September 1986, twenty-two worshippers were killed in an attack by the
Palestinian Abu Nidal terrorist group on the Neve Shalom synagogue in
Istanbul. In March 1992, Neve Shalom was the target of another violent
attack when terrorists linked to the Turkish Hizbullah group threw two
grenades at the synagogue, injuring a Jewish passer-by.
Racism and xenophobia
The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne recognizes the status of three religious
minoritiesp;Armenians, Jews and Greeks. Official attitudes towards the
Greek Orthodox and Armenian churches, however, are affected by Turkey's
political relations with Greece and Armenia.
The Alawi Muslim minority is estimated to number at least 12 million. Alawis
allege informal discrimination concerning the teaching of Islam and complain
of a Sunni Muslim bias in the ministry of religious affairs, which
classifies the Alawis as a cultural, rather than a religious, group.
There are approximately 12 million Turks of Kurdish origin, most of whom are
well-integrated into political and economic life. The government's campaign
against the PKK (see GENERAL BACKGROUND) has, however, affected the
treatment of the Kurdish commmunity, which is not officially recognized as a
minority.
Parties, organizations, movements
As in previous years, the Islamist organization Bilim Arastirma Vakfi
(Foundation for Scientific Research), led by Adnan Oktar (better known as
Adnan Hodja), continued to slander Jews. It draws support from educated and
wealthy young men and women but, unlike RP, most of its followers do not
adopt Muslim dress or attend mosques regularly. Oktar is notorious for his
virulent attacks on Israel, Jews and Freemasons.
In 1996 the foundation distributed two books entitled the "Holocaust
Liep;The Inside Story of the Secret History of the Zionist-Nazi
Co-operation and the Lie About Jewish Genocide" (originally published in
1995) and the "New Masonic Order" (see HOLOCAUST DENIAL). It also publishes
a bulletin, Siyasi Cizgi (Political Line), first launched in 1994, which was
mailed to thousands of prominent Turks.
Mainstream politics
Since its establishment in the early 1980s, RP has maintained an
anti-lsraeli and anti-Zionist stance, which is occasionally combined with
antisemitism. While in opposition Necmettin Erbakan and other leading RP
members frequently attacked both Israel and the Jews. In May, during
negotiations to form a coalition government with the ANAP, Erbakan remarked,
"Anyone who does not support Refah's efforts serves the Jews". Since
becoming prime minister in mid-1996 (see GENERAL BACKGROUND), Erbakan has
adopted a more pragmatic attitude towards Israel, but occasionally expressed
antisemitism, especially in Islamist forums. During his address in December,
for example, to the pro-Islamist Economic and Social Research Centre,
Erbakan referred to a book entitled "The Secret World State", which was
printed and distributed by an Islamist publication, and claimed that
"international Zionism" controlled the world economy and politics and was
inspired by the "oldest mystical Jewish sources, the cabbala ".
Antisemitic slogans were chanted at a demonstration organized by RP
supporters in October in Ankara, to protest the opening of the Hasmonean
tunnel in Jerusalem. RP's deputy leader, Riza Ulucak, denied that the party
was responsible.
Some RP members opposed the inclusion in the Turkish delegation that visited
Israel in November of Cefi Kamhi, the only Jewish parliamentarian. An RP
spokesperson later apologized for antisemitic remarks made by RP activists
in this context. During the debate, the press repeatedly used the prefix
"Jewish" in front of Kamhi's name.
Publications and media
In 1996 the Islamist media continued to spread anti-Zionist and antisemitic
propaganda. The most notorious newspapers were the RP's semi-official organ
Milli Gazete (National Gazette, circulation 150,000) and militant Islamist
papers such as Akit (Covenant), Yeni Safak (New Dawn), Selam and Siyah
Bayrak (Black Banner).
As in previous years, Milli Gazete published countless antisemitic articles
during 1996. In May, for instance, an article signed by an academic, Huseyin
Varol, analysed the negative characteristics of Jews according to the
Qur'an. In December, an article by Ihsan Suleyman Sirma claimed that Jews
were expelled from many countries "like rabid dogs and that whenever Jews
are treated in a human way, they always respond like animals".
In January, Milli Gazete praised the publication and free distribution of
copies of Oktar's book that denied the Holocaust (see HOLOCAUST DENIAL).
Akit and Milli Gazete both suggested that the book proved the conspiracy
between Hitler and the Zionists to encourage the emigration of the Jews and
the creation of a Jewish state, and that those who died in concentration
camps were victims of typhus. Erbakan recorded, prior to becoming prime
minister, that he had recommended this book to fellow party members as a
reference work.
In August Milli Gazete published a list of thirty-nine books and pamphlets
under the title "Anti-Zionist Books Published in Our Country". The list
included several antisemitic publications dating back to the 1960s and 1970s
(such as those by Cevat Rifat Atuhan) that are not available in main
bookshops but are available in smaller shops that stock Islamist literature.
In September, Siyah Bayrak expressed antisemitism in response to the
controversial opening of the Hasmonean tunnel in Jerusalem. It wrote: "The
latest brutality committed by Israel proves that there can be no innocent
Jew, and this further increases the possibility of attacks against the lives
and property of Jews living in the region, especially in Turkey" (see also
MAINSTREAM POLITICS).
The daily Yeni Safak wrote in October, "no intelligent person can regard the
Torah as a book of religion. It is a book of rebellion against God, of
intrigue and of war."
Akit published several antisemitic editorials, and one front-page story
accused Jews of damaging other religions and cultures. One edition alleged
that Turkish Jews were agents of world Jewry and Zionism, and accused them
of taking over critical economic fields such as transportation of natural
gas and telecommunications. Akit also printed calls for Islamic jihad ; one
article in February asserted, "All kinds of activities allowed under Islamic
laws should be carried out against the Jews anywhere in the world".
Similar calls for jihad against Jews appeared throughout the year in the
weekly Selam . It gave prominence in April to a report about RP
representative Sevki Yilmaz, who warned that Hamas and Hizbullah were
engaged in a jihad and stated: "If we don't stand against the bombs that the
Jews use against the Muslims in Jerusalem, one day those bombs will start
falling on Turkey."
In October, the cover of Akinci Yolu (The Raider's Path), a magazine that
supports the radical, underground Islami Buyuk Dogu Akincilar Cephesi
(IBDAC, Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front, see EFFECTS OF ANTI- ZIONISM),
featured a cover story entitled "The Best Jew is a Dead Jew". The magazine
attacked the RP for becoming too moderate towards secularism, claiming that
party leaders had become "collaborators of the Jews".
Numerous antisemitic books were also published in Turkey during the year.
Holocaust denial
The publication in December 1995 of "Holocaust Liep;The Inside Story of the
Secret History of the Zionist-Nazi Co-operation and the Lie About Jewish
Genocide" sparked much public debate throughout 1996.
In March 1996 a leading Turkish painter and intellectual, Bedri Baykam,
published a strongly worded critique in the Ankara daily newspaper
Siyah-Beyaz (Black and White). A legal suit for slander was subsequently
brought against Baykam by Nuri Ozbudak, who claimed to have written the book
under the pseudonym of Harun Yahya. During the trial in September, Baykam
exposed the real author of the book as Adnan Oktar, leader of Bilim
Arastirma Vakfi (see PARTIES, ORGANIZATIONS, MOVEMENTS).
Baykam also stated in court that genocide against the Jews was an
indisputable historical fact. He condemned the book and proclaimed that all
Turks who upheld human rights and democracy should react strongly against it
too. By the end of the year the trial had not yet been concluded, but it
appeared that Ozbudak would drop the case.
In September a Turkish translation of Les myths fondateurs de la politique
israelienne (Founding Myths of Israeli Politics), by French Holocaust-denier
Roger Garaudy, was published in Istanbul (see France). The book was
publicized on a pro-Islamic television channel.
Effects of anti-Zionism
Several militant Islamist organizations, some of which engaged in political
violence against secularist Turks and the police, were active in 1996. The
most prominent of the organizations was the IBDAC. Other underground groups
include the local branch of Hizbullah, the Islamic Jihad and the Islami
Kurtulus Orgutu (Islamic Salvation Organization).
The militant Islamists in Turkey fre-quently used their criticism of Zionism
and of Israel to express antisemitic sentiment. These groups organized
demonstrations following prayers on Fridays in Istanbul and Ankara, at which
they burned the Israeli and US flags and distributed anti-Israeli and
antisemitic material.
Countering antisemitism
During her visit to New York in September, Deputy Prime Minister Ciller met
with leading Jewish representatives and assured them that the Turkish
government's positive attitude towards Jews would not change as a result of
the Islamists' presence in the coalition.
A leading RP member and minister of state for economic affairs, Fehim Adak,
visited New York in December and met with delegations from American Jewish
organizations, including the American Jewish Committee (AJC). Adak stressed
that the RP favoured good relations with Israel and Jews.
Jewish communal leaders in Istanbul met several times with the highest
Turkish authorities, including President Suleyman Demirel and Istanbul's
mayor, Talip Erdogan, a leading RP member, in order to draw attention to the
antisemitic campaign by Islamists. Although the authorities repeatedly
affirmed their sympathy, no practical result has yet come of these
initiatives.
The Jewish weekly publication Salom repeatedly appealed for action against
antisemitism, but mainstream political parties preferred to remain silent. A
number of prominent columnists in pro-secularist newspapers did criticize
antisemitic remarks in the Islamist media. They include Sahin Alpay and
Guneri Civaoglu in Milliyet , Hadi Uluerigin and Ertugrul Ozkok in Hurriyet
and Gungor Mengi and Sedat Sertoglu in Sabah.
A pro-Islamist author, Ali Bulac, published an article in April in the daily
Yeni Safak in which he questioned the wisdom of conducting an antisemitic
campaign in Turkey, stressing that this would damage the image of Islam.
Yeni Safak usually takes a radical line and often publishes anti-Israeli
articles.
Assessment
1996 marked a noticeable surge in antisemitism in Turkey, with Islamist
politicians and writers stepping up their campaign against the Jews in
general and in some cases targeting Turkish Jews.
This coincided with the rise of pro-Islamic trends in the country, and the
coming to power of Necmettin Erbakan and his Refah Partisi.
The Jewish community in Turkey faced little discrimination in the
professions and fields in which they worked. Yet the mounting campaign by
the Islamist media and remarks made by some RP politicians led to
considerable unease in the Jewish community.
© JPR 1997
http://www.ort.org/jpr/AWRweb/Europe/turkey.htm
Asteras Amaliadas
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Marina wrote:
> ozgur wrote in message <357857C4...@ultranet.com>...
> >Antisemitism World Report 1997 published by World ORT Union
> © JPR 1997
>
> > http://www.ort.org/jpr/AWRweb/Europe/greece.htm
>
> http://www.ort.org/jpr/AWRweb/Europe/turkey.htm
Fuck you ALL! Lack of arguments pushed you Turks and Greeks to use jewish
"arguments" against each other!
You stupid Turks (who started this comedy): Didn't you realise that
attacking Greece like that would give a nice way for Greeks tou attack
you? Was that so difficult for you to think that if you change the word
"greece" with "turkey" in the URL:
http://www.ort.org/jpr/AWRweb/Europe/greece.htm
would be a nice counterargument against Turkey as valid as yours against
Greece?
You Greeks: I hope you did that is order to show how stupid is to quote
someone else who serves his own interests, as a referee against your
opponents! If you really want to use these arguments against the turks,
then accept the fact that the turks use the same arguments against you,
and fuck off, together with the turks and the jews!
Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~jm6
Unknown
In 1979 I took a course where the professor's assistant was a
Jewish Iranian who went to anti-Shah and "anti-Zionist" rallies. He
spoke against Israel and got into arguments with American Jews. I
happened, by accident, to later replace this chap at another job (in
research) the the same university. By then this chap had gotten all of
his family out of Iran and had changed his story. Now, the reason I
bring this up, is that while most Turkish-born Jews I meet say nice
things about Turkey, they also don't behave quite the same way as
ordinary Turks - so be careful what you believe. (Quite another issue
is that Turks in Europe have no incentive to assimilate and tend to be
a lot more hostile to Greeks than Turks in the USA who have hope of
someday becoming American - in fact most of my Moslem Turk colleagues
have ended up marrying Christian American women.) Most of the Jews of
Constantinople (ancestrally) left Thessaloniki with the Turks and all
those I have met in the USA proudly speak flawless Greek.
Unknown
In <357D80FA...@ultranet.com> by ozgur (oz...@ultranet.com) on Tue,
09 Jun 1998 14:37:46 -0400 we perused:
*+-Yes, technically Alban Mosher is right. Both Arabs and Hebrews
are of Semitic
*+-background. Alban is saying that Arabs are perhaps more Semitic
than Jews probably
So are "Anatolians" (originally Hittites, hence Trojans and the
like). The "Turks" of "Turkey" in fact do not exist. Sixty thousand
horsemen came from Uyghur Mongolia, with almost no women. They may
have forced their sperm, their language, their goats and their
religion on those they occupied, but they ended up greatly diluting
themselves. This is why they depended on Dervish Janissarism for
soldiers.
I'm curious, however, since IndoEuropeans all come from the
Cavcavsus, near where Noah's Ark was found, if the original Hebrews
(before Joseph took them into Egypt) were Semites or not - because the
Flood/Ark legend otherwise persists in mostly IndoEuropean cultures.
Where did the Semites originate? Did they migrate straight up from
Ethiopia (where humanity is said to have originated)?
ozgur
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier wrote:
> In <357D80FA...@ultranet.com> by ozgur (oz...@ultranet.com) on Tue,
> 09 Jun 1998 14:37:46 -0400 we perused:
> *+-Yes, technically Alban Mosher is right. Both Arabs and Hebrews
> are of Semitic
> *+-background. Alban is saying that Arabs are perhaps more Semitic
> than Jews probably
>
> So are "Anatolians" (originally Hittites, hence Trojans and the
> like). The "Turks" of "Turkey" in fact do not exist. Sixty thousand
> horsemen came from Uyghur Mongolia, with almost no women. They may
> have forced their sperm, their language, their goats and their
> religion on those they occupied, but they ended up greatly diluting
> themselves. This is why they depended on Dervish Janissarism for
> soldiers.
I don't care much about your language with racial overtones but here are the
facts: After the Seljuk king Alparsan defeated the Byzantine emperor Diogenes in
the battle of Manzikert (1071 A.D.) , it is true that only a small group of Turks
(mostly men, you are right.) streamed into Anatolia. You are wrong in that they
did not come from Uyghur Mongolia. In fact no such place exists. Uyghurs are
Turkic, well, Mongolians are Mongolians. Uyghurs lived near China and Mongols
have lived in the North of the Central Asia. The Turks who came into Anatolia
originated in the south west of the Central Asia (around today's Turkmenia). You
are right that they probably took wives from among the native population,
diluting their Turkic blood by almost half from the very start. I am sure that
their offspring also married with the indigenious population. However, the first
infusion of the Turkic race into Anatolia was not the end of it. Turks kept
coming into Anatolia over the course of many centuries. So it is hard to
calculate what percentage of today's Anatolian Turkish bloodline is genuinely
Turkic. My guess is probably less than half.
However, I must also remind you that in this respect Turks entirely followed the
footsteps of the Greeks who had done the same thing in Anatolia earlier. The
original inhabitants of Anatolia were not Greek: Hittites, Lydians, Phrigians,
Sumerians in the East, Urartu, etc. When the Greeks established Ionia and later
the Byzantine, they assimilated all the Anatolian races into themselves. When
the Turks arrived, except for the Kurds and the Armenians, all the rest of the
population had already become Greek by culture. Racially, though, these Greeks
had a very high percentage of the indigenious Anatolian blood, Hittites, Lydian
etc. When the Anatolian Greeks migrated to Greece during the population exchange
early in this century, they carried this bloodline to Greece, thus today's Greece
is also racially mixed with the ancient Anatolian races.
> I'm curious, however, since IndoEuropeans all come from the
> Cavcavsus, near where Noah's Ark was found, if the original Hebrews
> (before Joseph took them into Egypt) were Semites or not - because the
> Flood/Ark legend otherwise persists in mostly IndoEuropean cultures.
> Where did the Semites originate? Did they migrate straight up from
> Ethiopia (where humanity is said to have originated)?
I would be interested to know too. However, depending on Biblical stories
entirely for solving this puzzle is probably not a very reliable method.
Flood/Ark legend is not of Indo-European origin BTW, it is a Semitic legend. It
exist in all 3 Abrahamic religions, including Islam.
Ozgur
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
pythia <kin...@erols.com> wrote:
:> Yes it is, you uneducated primate! The Arabs are a Semitic people, while
:> the modern "Israelis" are largely composed of ethnic Europeans
:> (non-Semitic) who subscribe to the Jewish faith.
:
: This is a totally subjective statement. What do you base this on?
What is subjective, you illeterate clown? The Arabs are a Semitic people,
this is a FACT. Do you wish to challenge this? As far as the "Israelis"
(the 2/3 who are of Jewish faith), the vast majority moved into the region
after the second world war. These people did not have a "Jewish state" in
Palestine for 2 millennia. The inhabitants (Jews) of Israel are the Jews
of the world (from Europeans to Ethiopians), and have no or little
genetic/blood relation with the "original" Jews (who were Semites).
Unless of course you have proof that the small number of Jews spread
throughout the world for 2000 years, managed to maintain their genetic
characteristics (as Semites).
In any case, an Arab is "more" of a Semite than any Jew could possibly
claim to be.
:> : yeah right...and when was the last time YOU heard the term
:> : "antisemitism" referring to anything other than anti Jewish? Everyone
:> : knows exactly what this term means.
:>
:> "Everyone" might be the ignorant American public, much like yourself.
:
: I can see by your charming response you are clearly a charm school
: graduate. Can you find me one instance where this term was used to
: discribe anti Arab sentiment?
It seems that I need to respond twice for you to start comprehending some
basic statements in English! Simply because you and ignorant Americans use
the term "anti-Semitic" exclusively to mean "anti-Jewish", that does not
make it valid. Do you understand so far, or am I going too fast for you?
As far as me being a "charmer", what can I say.. blame it on the "Gods" of
Olympus, who made me!
: Pythia
BTW: I've climbed mount Olympus and guess what...? I didn't see any Gods
but rather a sign that read: "If you expected to see 12 Gods up here, you
must be one sorry-assed individual".
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'The shortest straw has been pulled for you...' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
pythia
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos wrote:
>
>
> What is subjective, you illeterate clown? The Arabs are a Semitic people,
> this is a FACT. Do you wish to challenge this?
Hold on! Sit down, take a deep breath...I never said they weren't...
>
> In any case, an Arab is "more" of a Semite than any Jew could possibly
> claim to be.
This is the subjective statement I am referring to. It is possibly so,
but it's based more on your opinion than on any objective information.
> : I can see by your charming response you are clearly a charm school
> : graduate. Can you find me one instance where this term was used to
> : discribe anti Arab sentiment?
>
> It seems that I need to respond twice for you to start comprehending some
> basic statements in English! Simply because you and ignorant Americans use
> the term "anti-Semitic" exclusively to mean "anti-Jewish", that does not
> make it valid.
ok, but you still haven't given any concrete example.
> As far as me being a "charmer", what can I say.. blame it on the "Gods" of
> Olympus, who made me! (in a fit of pique, I suppose.....)
>
>
> BTW: I've climbed mount Olympus and guess what...? I didn't see any Gods
> but rather a sign that read: "If you expected to see 12 Gods up here, you
> must be one sorry-assed individual".
Thanks for a good laugh, Pilarinos!
Pythia
>
> --
> ..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
> | 'The shortest straw has been pulled for you...' - Metallica! |
> ` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
--
"And the Lady, Leto, was happy,
The son She made was strong, and an archer."
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/signoftheharp
To reply remove anti-spam from the email address
OGUZ
On 9 Jun 1998, it was written:
> : Alban Mosher wrote:
> :> To be pro-Arab as opposed to being pro-Jewish or pro-Israel does not
> :> make one an Anti-Semite. On the contrary the Arabs are Semites,
> :> perhaps even more so than most of the modern Jews can claim.
> :
> : Is this a fact?
>
> the modern "Israelis" are largely composed of ethnic Europeans
> (non-Semitic) who subscribe to the Jewish faith.
Yes, you would know who Semitic people are, Saudi-boy Dionysis... :)))
\\|//
(o o)
---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
| OGUZ |
| http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
--------------------------------
Redbeard
Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
<snip>
Gia tis zohades exei parh tipota; den katalabenw giati tetoia
aganakthsh.
Me to sympatheia dhladh.
Kokkinogenis
OGUZ
On 10 Jun 1998 vj...@dorsai.org wrote:
>
> So are "Anatolians" (originally Hittites, hence Trojans and the
> like). The "Turks" of "Turkey" in fact do not exist. Sixty thousand
> horsemen came from Uyghur Mongolia, with almost no women. They may
> have forced their sperm, their language, their goats and their
> religion on those they occupied, but they ended up greatly diluting
> themselves. This is why they depended on Dervish Janissarism for
> soldiers.
This is utter racist garbage.
It is obvious that you have no knowledge of Turk history,
especially when you refer to a place as "Uygur, Mongolia" ;)))
True 40-50K Turk warriors met the mighty 300K Byzantine soldiers in
1071 AD at Manzikert and defeated the Byzantines, but behind them in
modern Northern Iran and beyond were millions upon millions waiting for
the flood gates to Anatolia to open. And with that Turkish victory and
within only 2 years all of Anatolia was filled with millions of Turks with
their own women and children. Eventually, the local population also became
Turkified and some even joined in war against the oppresive Byzantine
rulers to get revenge. But to boldly fabricate that "60,000" Turks
with their "inferior language and mental capabilities" forced the millions
of indigenous Anatolians to speak, act, and be Turkish is ludicrous and I
might add quiet a feeble attempt to falsify history.
Secondly, the Yeniceri (janisarry corp) was not the base of the Ottoman
army and was not implemented until much later. Over the 300 yrs of its
existence it is said that only 200,000 soldiers of Balkan extraction,
(i.e. Bosnian, Serb, & Albanian) NOT GREEK people were inscripted to this
army division. It is known that Greeks were used as eunuchs in the palace
and no where else, for they were not considered fighting material (just as
the Romans before the Turks had known the Greeks well).
>
> I'm curious, however, since IndoEuropeans all come from the
> Cavcavsus, near where Noah's Ark was found, if the original Hebrews
> (before Joseph took them into Egypt) were Semites or not - because the
> Flood/Ark legend otherwise persists in mostly IndoEuropean cultures.
> Where did the Semites originate? Did they migrate straight up from
> Ethiopia (where humanity is said to have originated)?
Man, either stick to "religious theories" on the origin of man or stick to
"scientific evolutionary theories" DO NOT get the two confused and claim
indo-euros came from the caucasus and original man came from africa...
I have no idea why I'm wasting time with your 3rd rate history knowledge..
Asteras Amaliadas
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Redbeard wrote:
> Gia tis zohades exei parh tipota; den katalabenw giati tetoia
> aganakthsh.
> Me to sympatheia dhladh.
Re kokkinotrixiko,
Pane me to zori oi arximalakes kai oi tourkalades kai oi ellhnares na
xrhsimopoihsoun 3ena kai dh ebraika kataptusta epixeirhmata eis barwn twn
lawn mas, gia epixeirhmata stis meta3u mas mpinelomaxies!
Diabasa apospasmatika gia ton upoti8emeno "antishmitismo" ths ellados pou
elege oti uparxei h Xrush Augh, ara eimaste antishmites! Ta Xrusa Auga
pairnoun 4.000 staurous se 10.000.000 kosmo, alla gia tous poustosiwnistes
pou sunta3an thn ek8esh, autoi oi 4.000 "apodeiknuoun" oti ws e8nos
eimaste antishmites!
Omoiws kai oi "tourkoi" einai allo toso antishmites!
> Kokkinogenis
Can Subaykan
ne diyon lan ?
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Redbeard wrote:
> Asteras Amaliadas wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Gia tis zohades exei parh tipota; den katalabenw giati tetoia
> aganakthsh.
> Me to sympatheia dhladh.
>
>
> Kokkinogenis
>
>
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
pythia <kin...@NOSPAMerols.com> wrote:
:> What is subjective, you illeterate clown? The Arabs are a Semitic people,
:> this is a FACT. Do you wish to challenge this?
:
: Hold on! Sit down, take a deep breath...I never said they weren't...
But you still insist on stating that "anti-Semitic" means "anti-Jewish"!?
:> In any case, an Arab is "more" of a Semite than any Jew could possibly
:> claim to be.
:
: This is the subjective statement I am referring to. It is possibly so,
: but it's based more on your opinion than on any objective information.
Nice to know that you made a major <snip> without indicating so. Here it
is again, and kindly recognize the "objective information" you so desire.
:>As far as the "Israelis" (the 2/3 who are of Jewish faith), the vast
:>majority moved into the region after the second world war. These people
:>did not have a "Jewish state" in Palestine for 2 millennia. The
:>inhabitants (Jews) of Israel are the Jews of the world (from Europeans
:>to Ethiopians), and have no or little genetic/blood relation with the
:>"original" Jews (who were Semites).
:>
:>Unless of course you have proof that the small number of Jews spread
:>throughout the world for 2000 years, managed to maintain their genetic
:>characteristics (as Semites).
You are more than welcomed to try and disprove any of the above.
:> It seems that I need to respond twice for you to start comprehending some
:> basic statements in English! Simply because you and ignorant Americans use
:> the term "anti-Semitic" exclusively to mean "anti-Jewish", that does not
:> make it valid.
:
: ok, but you still haven't given any concrete example.
A concrete example of WHAT? That "anti-Semite" could be used to define
anti-Arab sentiments? How about "When ignorant Americans rushed to blame
Arabs for the OKC bombing, their anti-Semitic sentiments were exposed."
:> As far as me being a "charmer", what can I say.. blame it on the "Gods" of
:> Olympus, who made me! (in a fit of pique, I suppose.....)
:>
:> BTW: I've climbed mount Olympus and guess what...? I didn't see any Gods
:> but rather a sign that read: "If you expected to see 12 Gods up here, you
:> must be one sorry-assed individual".
:
: Thanks for a good laugh, Pilarinos!
Thank you for making it possible! :)
: Pythia
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Halls of justice painted green, money talking...' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Can Subaykan
Ne diyon ulan duduk?
Can Subaykan
On 10 Jun 1998, it was written:
> pythia <kin...@NOSPAMerols.com> wrote:
>
> But you still insist on stating that "anti-Semitic" means "anti-Jewish"!?
>
Technically Jews are not the only Semites, you're right. The term
anti-Semitic has somehow come to have the same meaning as anti-Jewish.
To accuse Arabs of anti-Semitism actually doesn't make sense, since Arabs
are a Semitic people. But generally when someone says anti-Semitic, they
mean anti-Jewish. I just use the correct and direct term anti-Jewish.
> :>Unless of course you have proof that the small number of Jews spread
> :>throughout the world for 2000 years, managed to maintain their genetic
> :>characteristics (as Semites).
This makes sense to me, as it is highly unlikely any group (including
Greeks and Turks) to have maintained all of their "own" genetic traits.
But I had a discussion with a Jewish friend, who insisted that Jews were a
race, all Jews (black and white, European and Saphardic, Ethiopean and
Russian, etc..) shared genetic traits. I didn't really buy that, but
that's what some people claim.
> A concrete example of WHAT? That "anti-Semite" could be used to define
> anti-Arab sentiments? How about "When ignorant Americans rushed to blame
> Arabs for the OKC bombing, their anti-Semitic sentiments were exposed."
I never heard anti-Arab sentiments referred to as anti-Semitic sentiments.
Though it would be technically correct to say so, nobody ever says it.
It's just one of those things like "centrifugal" force which
many people have heard of.
There is no such force; there is a "centripedal" force which
only people who took a course in physics seem to have heard.
Redbeard
OGUZ wrote:
> Secondly, the Yeniceri (janisarry corp) was not the base of the Ottoman
> army and was not implemented until much later. Over the 300 yrs of its
> existence it is said that only 200,000 soldiers of Balkan extraction,
> (i.e. Bosnian, Serb, & Albanian) NOT GREEK people were inscripted to this
> army division. It is known that Greeks were used as eunuchs in the palace
> and no where else, for they were not considered fighting material (just as
> the Romans before the Turks had known the Greeks well).
You might want to double check that fact. Greek klefts were used by many
a regional commanders as a police force in both the Greek mainland and
also the Balkans.
I also believe that the Jenicery(sp?) corps was composed of all
nationalities including Greeks. Once a jenicery (sp?) the allegience
was to the Sultan and not to the nationality that one came from. At the
time the Greeks also identified themselfs as "Christians". Most of the
people in those regions who were christian also spoke Greek. If you
want I can reffer you to several different historians, Greek, Romanian,
Bulgarian. So you need to define who are reffering to as Greek.
> > I'm curious, however, since IndoEuropeans all come from the
> > Cavcavsus, near where Noah's Ark was found, if the original Hebrews
> > (before Joseph took them into Egypt) were Semites or not - because the
> > Flood/Ark legend otherwise persists in mostly IndoEuropean cultures.
> > Where did the Semites originate? Did they migrate straight up from
> > Ethiopia (where humanity is said to have originated)?
>
Human's as populations tend to split up and become distinct. The
evidence is both on the DNA and tends to parraller linquistic splits.
This is an old theory that is currently getting a lot of backing by
evidence. I dont have much on the specifics if you want though.....
> Man, either stick to "religious theories" on the origin of man or stick to
> "scientific evolutionary theories" DO NOT get the two confused and claim
> indo-euros came from the caucasus and original man came from africa...
> I have no idea why I'm wasting time with your 3rd rate history knowledge..
The Hebrews would have a good record of where they came from. I believe
that they are of messopotamian origin. Their holy scriptures can
provide and insight of were they came from. If you know anyone jewish
ask, they have a 5,000 years of recorded history.
Redbeard
Can Subaykan wrote:
>
> Ne diyon ulan duduk?
YOu are cross posting, do you know how to edit your addreses? Need help?
If yes please ask....
Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21 wrote:
>re kokkinotrixo
Auto to pername, exw akousei kai xeirotera,
> > Pane me to zori oi arximalakes kai oi tourkalades kai oi ellhnares na
> > xrhsimopoihsoun 3ena kai dh ebraika kataptusta epixeirhmata eis barwn twn
> > lawn mas, gia epixeirhmata stis meta3u mas mpinelomaxies!
> > Omoiws kai oi "tourkoi" einai allo toso antishmites!
To problhma pou eixa egw einai pws to eipes oxi to giati. To an eimai
ellhnara h oxi, sugnwmh, mono egw 8a to krinw kai kanenas allos.
Oso gia pminelomaxies, as tis paroume san autokritikh......
Kokkinogenis
Asteras Amaliadas
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Redbeard wrote:
> Can Subaykan wrote:
> >
> > Ne diyon ulan duduk?
>
> YOu are cross posting, do you know how to edit your addreses? Need help?
> If yes please ask....
Esu re malaka, esteiles sta ellhnika sto tourkiko prwtos (se apanthsh
agglikou mhnumatos mou) kai meta tn pathsa ki egw, gi' auto to paidi mas
thn eipe!
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21 wrote:
> >re kokkinotrixo
>
> Auto to pername, exw akousei kai xeirotera,
Edw koitaxte!
> > > Pane me to zori oi arximalakes kai oi tourkalades kai oi ellhnares na
> > > xrhsimopoihsoun 3ena kai dh ebraika kataptusta epixeirhmata eis barwn twn
> > > lawn mas, gia epixeirhmata stis meta3u mas mpinelomaxies!
>
> > > Omoiws kai oi "tourkoi" einai allo toso antishmites!
>
> To problhma pou eixa egw einai pws to eipes oxi to giati.
Suggnwmh pou den sou zhthsa thn adeia prwta!
> To an eimai
> ellhnara h oxi, sugnwmh, mono egw 8a to krinw kai kanenas allos.
Eipa egw oti esu eisai ellhnara, re malaka; Me sena nomizeis asxoloumai;
> Oso gia pminelomaxies, as tis paroume san autokritikh......
Re den pas sto diaolo! Egw milousa gia tis paradosiakes mpinelomaxies
meta3u ellhnarwn- tourkaladwn stis opoies gnika DEN summetexw, giati kai
oi men kai oi de einai tenekedes (oi tourkoi einai anegkefala, ki emeis
pou tous apantame kai tous epitrepoume na gamane to newsgroup mas, kai den
mporei na deis kaneis 3enos ti 8a pei Ellada, korohdares)!
> Kokkinogenis
Den 8a sou 3anapanthsw! Giati 8a sou apantaga se proswpiko, alla afou
krubeis poios eisai den ginetai! Opote, adios kokkinotrixiko!
Redbeard
Me 3ereis; me 3xeis gnwrisei;
Steile mou e-mail, kai 8a er8w na se brw tsoglani.....
To ti kanw kai giati einai dikia mou ype8esh. Kai den me 3ereis kai
oute sou edwsa pote to dikaioma malakistiri. Kai prosexe, sou'fuge o
tsampoukas ap' ta patsakia.....
Kokkinogenis
Can Subaykan
I'm glad you got the point. Go back and see who crossposted
a Greek message into the Turkish newsgroup. Please let's
follow ettiquette, efkharisto.
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Redbeard wrote:
> Can Subaykan wrote:
> >
> > Ne diyon ulan duduk?
>
> YOu are cross posting, do you know how to edit your addreses? Need help?
> If yes please ask....
>
>
> Asteras Amaliadas - Listarchos21 wrote:
> >re kokkinotrixo
>
>
> Auto to pername, exw akousei kai xeirotera,
>
> > > Pane me to zori oi arximalakes kai oi tourkalades kai oi ellhnares na
> > > xrhsimopoihsoun 3ena kai dh ebraika kataptusta epixeirhmata eis barwn twn
> > > lawn mas, gia epixeirhmata stis meta3u mas mpinelomaxies!
>
> > > Omoiws kai oi "tourkoi" einai allo toso antishmites!
>
> To problhma pou eixa egw einai pws to eipes oxi to giati. To an eimai
> ellhnara h oxi, sugnwmh, mono egw 8a to krinw kai kanenas allos.
> Oso gia pminelomaxies, as tis paroume san autokritikh......
> Kokkinogenis
>
>
La...@my-dejanews.com
In article <3586CC...@this.time>,
not.av...@this.time wrote:
>
> OGUZ wrote:
>
> > With all due respect Mr. Redbeard, "believing" that the Yeniceri had
> > Greeks among them is not proof. You also mention that "people in those
> > regions who were christian also spoke Greek"
> >
> > I'm talking about the Balkans, and unless they were clergymen or
> > studying science, it's highly unlikely the Albanian & Slav poplulations
> > knew how to speak Greek.
> >
>
> I do have to concede on some points that you have made. However. The
> entire region that is now Greece, Albania, Yugoslavia up to the
> Dalmatian coast, the regions bordering Moldavia and Vlachia and so on
> were concidered Greek by the Ottoman administration.
> The Muslim populations in those areas was small when compared to the
> christian orthodox one. To be christian orthodox, you had to have some
> knowledge of Greek, since the liturgy and all was conducted in Greek.
> You are correct in part about Albanians and Slavs in general not
> speaking Greek. However, the more afluent them did. Speaking Greek and
> communicating in that language was a sigh of social rank. That is why
> many countries such as Bulgaria had schools that that taught if not
> exclusively in Greek but in both in the local language and Greek at the
> same time.
>
> If being a grecophone meant that you are more afluent, the gathering of
> recruits for the Jenisaries would not have taken place in affluent
> neighborhoods or provinces for economic reasons as well as political.
> It would have taken place in poor neighborhoods and most of the people
> that belonged in that group would have been the majority of people you
> have mentioned. So it is not then that Greeks were not concidered good
> but Greeks were not as poor or as bad off as the rest of the peoples in
> that part of the empire.
>
> An interesting side note. The first major Jenisary disaster that led to
> the corps loosing its luster and ultimatly being disbanded came at the
> hands of Count Vlad of the Carpathian Mountains. Yes Vlad the impaler
> or who became known as Drakula was the end of that lot of fun boys....
>
> Regards,
> Redbeard
>
Another interesting side note, that connects this conversation with
its previous heading... In his book "Farewell Espan~a" Howard M.Sachar
has this to say:
..then, in 1826, Sultan Mahmud II disbanded the perennially rebellious
janissary corps. This professional military caste had long been a main-
stayof the Jewish middle class. For nearly two centuries, Jews had fun-
ctioned as its quartermasters, purveyors, and textile suppliers. the
loss of the janissary connection soon proved devastating to the Jewish
economy.
pansak
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Kritifile
>
>OGUZ wrote:
>Redbeard wrote
I believe that some jannesseries (is that 1 or 2 'ns'?) were taken from the
poorer areas of Greece.
Vlad the Impaler was the person who inspired the Dracula books, but I believe
impaling was a popular method of execution for the Turks during their
occupation of Greece.
Georges
About Yenicari look my site http://www.hellenisme.org
to Turquie
naissance d'etat turc
Also you can read The turlish newspaper in my page Turquie
In article <Pine.HPP.3.96.98061...@stutz.iupui.edu>, OGUZ
<so...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Redbeard wrote:
> \\|//
> (o o)
> ---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
>| OGUZ |
>| http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
> --------------------------------
>
*********************************************************
http://www.hellenisme.org
*********************************************************
Hellas : Macedoine - Imia - Histoire - Institution - etc
*********************************************************
Chypre : Histoire - geographie - economie - civilisation
purification ethnique - colons - etc
*********************************************************
Turquie : Histoire - Islamisme - Goulag Turc - droit
de l'homme - Union douaniere - etc
*********************************************************
Genocides : Chronologie - grec - chypriote -
armenien - bulgare - kurde
*********************************************************
Le position des autres pays : USA - UE - Allemande - etc
*********************************************************
OGUZ
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 not.av...@this.time wrote:
[old text cut]
> I do have to concede on some points that you have made. However. The
> entire region that is now Greece, Albania, Yugoslavia up to the
> Dalmatian coast, the regions bordering Moldavia and Vlachia and so on
> were concidered Greek by the Ottoman administration.
[OGUZ]
The land that you describe as being considered Greek by the Ottoman
administration was actually called "Rumeli", which literally meant "the
land of the Romans". Once again this does not make it Greek. In fact it
was just an arbritrary designation for the entire Balkan area for it once
was under the Romans. (again therefore the usage of Rumeli
> The Muslim populations in those areas was small when compared to the
> christian orthodox one. To be christian orthodox, you had to have some
> knowledge of Greek, since the liturgy and all was conducted in Greek.
[OGUZ]
I said exactly what you say here, that unless these NON-Greek peoples of
Orthodox faith were clergy or studying higher levels of education under
Orthodox schooling, then they may know Greek, but this fact does not make
them Greek. I speak & write English like my mother tongue by I am by no
means English by genetic makeup or even culture.
> You are correct in part about Albanians and Slavs in general not
> speaking Greek. However, the more afluent them did. Speaking Greek and
> communicating in that language was a sigh of social rank. That is why
> many countries such as Bulgaria had schools that that taught if not
> exclusively in Greek but in both in the local language and Greek at the
> same time.
[OGUZ]
Good details on your part; that is what I was trying to say so hurridly
in my previous mail.
> If being a grecophone meant that you are more afluent, the gathering of
> recruits for the Jenisaries would not have taken place in affluent
> neighborhoods or provinces for economic reasons as well as political.
> It would have taken place in poor neighborhoods and most of the people
> that belonged in that group would have been the majority of people you
> have mentioned. So it is not then that Greeks were not concidered good
> but Greeks were not as poor or as bad off as the rest of the peoples in
> that part of the empire.
[OGUZ]
My purpose is not to offend, but there are many accounts that show that
the Ottomans didn't see the Greek people as soldier material. It has also
been shown in historical writing by the Romans. But I'm not trying to
demean, I'm just stating that the Ottoman Turks knew that the Albanians,
Bosnians, & Serbs made good soldiers and even among them from previous
Turk invasions from North of the Black Sea (Avar, Kuman, Pechenek etc
Turks) were among them. Their affinity to our standards & tactics of
warfare were close and therefore they were chosen.
Greeks, Armenians, & later Jews were the people of business, translators,
and international merchants. Now are the Albanians and Slavs supposed to
feel mentally inferior because the Ottomans didn't use them for these
purposes? Definitely not. But it remains a fact that this was the norm of
the time under the Ottoman Turks.
> An interesting side note. The first major Jenisary disaster that led to
> the corps loosing its luster and ultimatly being disbanded came at the
> hands of Count Vlad of the Carpathian Mountains. Yes Vlad the impaler
> or who became known as Drakula was the end of that lot of fun boys....
[OGUZ]
Count Vlad was never a Yeniceri soldier. He was quite an insignificant
figure of a region in Translyvania. He was a tyrant of the surrounding
villages and seemed to be mentally unstable. Historians have shown that
Count Vlad was so obcessed with immortality (forget the movies and even
the recent movie with Keanu Reeves has historical inaccuracies mixed with
a money making bogus "hollywood romance" plot) Vlad believed that if he
actually ate the flesh and drank the blood of human beings that he would
live forever (ergo the beginning of Drakul) Count Vlad killed thousands
upon thousands of his own people, his mistake was when he *impaled* 30,000
Turk soldiers who were the garisson guards of the town. Vlad's head was
demanded by the Turkish Khan, and Vlad's head was brought back to istanbul
This was not the end of the Yeniceri as you incorrectly mentioned. By the
1700s the Yeniceri had become so corrupt and unstable, threatening the
Osmanli family (which it was supposed to protect) that finally in 1826 in
the middle of the palace court the entire Yeniceri division was destroyed
by divisions loyal to the Ottoman family.
Sincerely,
Redbeard
OGUZ wrote:
<text sniped>
Thank you for pointing out some inacuracies. I did a lot of this from
memory so some of my facts may have been scewed.
Vlad and his army was one of the first to deal a defeat to the Jennicery
corps who up until that time were proud to have been undefeated. He
managed to do so by traping them at a pass after a river crossing, where
his inferior in numbers army was capable of nulling the effect of the
Horseman tactics and numbers of the Jenniceries.
As far as the socioeconomic aspects that chose one race over the other,
I believe that we are in agreement.
I also agree with why Greeks were not concidered, thought off as
merchants and not as soldiers. However, again armed Greek men composed
militias under the regional ottoman rulers that where responcible for
the maitenance and suppresion of any revolts or other wars in the
region.
During the rebelion of 1821, most of the Greeks who were fighting
against the Turks had been trained under such regional commands. An
example is Karaiskakis, or karaiskos who had gotten his military
training as a guardsman and soldier of Ali Passa ( I dont recal his
Turkish name at this time). Makrygiannis is another '21 fighter who
learned waring the same way.
But thank you for your serious replies and comments. It has been a
pleasure.
Regards,
Redbeard
Redbeard
Kritifile wrote:
>
> I believe that some jannesseries (is that 1 or 2 'ns'?) were taken from the
> poorer areas of Greece.
> Vlad the Impaler was the person who inspired the Dracula books, but I believe
> impaling was a popular method of execution for the Turks during their
> occupation of Greece.
I know that Jannesseries ( I believe your speling is correct) were taken
from poorer areas of Greece. The point of it was that they were not
taken in droves like the rest of the peoples in the area due to
socioeconomic reasons rather than ability to fight and other such
drivel.
Count Vlad was of the order of the Dragon, (Drakul) which was a honorary
title of somesort or other. Bram Stoker got the idea when he visited the
area and heard of Vlads charming ways. His brutal practices of Impaling
live prisoners while having dinner and the local superstiotions, is my
assesment was what brought the legend of the blood drinking and all.
Mr Ozkul (sorry about the wrong spelling of the name) was just making a
point based on prejudice and not on fact. Thank's for the spelling BTW
Regards,
Redbeard
OGUZ
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Redbeard wrote:
>
> But thank you for your serious replies and comments. It has been a
> pleasure.
It has been pleasurable for me, as well.
I thank you for your "open-mindedness" (if that's a word:)
on the Yeniceri (Janissary) topic and see that Greeks, Jews, & Armenians
were seen as businessmen, merchants, translators; while Albanians,
Bosnians, Serbs were seen as more of a military protective role.
Sincerely,
\\|//
(o o)
---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
| OGUZ |
| http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
--------------------------------
> Regards,
> Redbeard