FYROM stupidity and insults
ERIC
It's difficult to believe the stupidity shown by the sons and daughters of
FYROM. The following is a link with photo to the latest staged propaganda
and outright provocation aided and abetted by the Skopjians against Greece.
I hope the Greek FM can hand out pictures with a descriptive summary of this
latest provocation against Greece when the NATO ministers convene this
week..
Do the Skopjians really believe that they will be accepted into the EU or
NATO with such examples of hostility aginst a long standing NATO member
that is Greece.
Again, thanks to all FYROMians for revealing (again) your true intelligence
and philosophy in regards to international relationships.
Always a pleasure
Eric
http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=6291328&maindocimg=6291127&service=102
Athens furious over Skopje insult
Greece angrily condemns insult to nat'l symbol on Skopje billboards
Greece reacted angrily on Sunday to an unprecedented provocation in the
neighbouring Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), as several
outdoor billboards in the capital of Skopje depicted an adulterated Greek
flag, with the blue Cross morphed into a Swastika.
"This unacceptable poster, which was circulated via a private initiative
and raised on Skopje's streets, directly insults our country's national
symbol and our struggle against fascism and Nazism," a foreign ministry
spokesman tersely said on Sunday afternoon in response to a press question.
"This incident demonstrates the huge mistake made by those that invest in
chauvinism and bigotry. It also confirms, yet again, the correctness of
Greece's position, namely, that a necessary condition for the establishment
of relations of solidarity and relations amongst allies is, in practice,
respect of good-neighbourly relations between countries and peoples,"
spokesman George Koumoutsakos emphasised, speaking days before a NATO summit
will consider admission for landlocked FYROM.
The spokesman also announced that Greece's diplomatic representative in
the neighbouring one-time Yugoslav state has been instructed to table
Athens' severe protest over the provocation to FYROM's foreign ministry as
well as to demand the immediate removal of the offensive billboard.
The Swastika imagery on the Greek flag -- in place of the Cross -- was
the first item covered by most television news programmes in Greece on
Sunday evening, touching on a particularly sensitive nerve, given that the
east Mediterranean country sustained monumental damages and loss of life
during World War II during successive Italian and German invasions, followed
by a triple occupation (1941-1944) by Nazi German, Italian fascist and
Bulgarian troops.
According to an ANA-MPA dispatch from Skopje, the controversial billboard
ads ostensibly promote a photographic exhibition in the city's cultural
centre from April 3 to May 3.
pavel
> Macedon pretended :
>
> > If you look at the reaction from the Macedonian newspapers
> >http://www.vecer.com.mk/?ItemID=470201D31F692C4AB0F7B2F58269E2FByou
> > will notice that the bilboard is condemned there. Overreaction from
> > Greek side only appears as you are no better than the Muslim reaction
> > over Muhhamed's cartoons. The image is not original, it has been
> > portrayed previously in a Borat Hell Ass comedy video:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ9VjrbkgI4
>
> > Personally, I think the image reflects current Nazi-style policy of
> > Greek government towards indigenous Macedonians in the Aegean part of
> > Macedonia, policy against the neighbouring country, as well as the
> > current antisemitic activities by Greek intelectuals
> >http://www.euromedrights.net/pages/510/news/focus/50392
>
> > On Mar 31, 7:00 am, "ERIC" <fitz...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >> It's difficult to believe the stupidity shown by the sons and daughters of
> >> FYROM. The following is a link with photo to the latest staged propaganda
> >> and outright provocation aided and abetted by the Skopjians against Greece.
> >> I hope the Greek FM can hand out pictures with a descriptive summary of this
> >> latest provocation against Greece when the NATO ministers convene this
> >> week..
> >> Do the Skopjians really believe that they will be accepted into the EU or
> >> NATO with such examples of hostility aginst a long standing NATO member
> >> that is Greece.
> >> Again, thanks to all FYROMians for revealing (again) your true intelligence
> >> and philosophy in regards to international relationships.
>
> >> Always a pleasure
> >> Eric
>
> >>http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=6291328&maindocimg=62...
> We don't read Bulgarian,I don't know what the paper says.-
The billbords are property of the Cultural-Informative Centre -
Skopje, and
they are an advertisement of the exhibition of Atanas Botev, that is
held in
that Centre from April 3rd to May 3rd. Atanas Botev explained himself,
that
the swastika was forever considered by him and his family as a sign
for health
and prosperity, so that it is strange for him the reaction of the
Greek
government. He himself has his roots in Solun (Thessaloniki). There
his
family has been in help to the German liberators in the WW II, and
because of that
was forced to emigrate after the war. A CULTURAL EVENT cannot be a
reason
for worsening of the relations between two neighbouring countries.
That
would be the reply by the Macedonian External Affairs Ministry to the
Greek note for taking away the billbords. The billbords would remain
until
the end of the exhibition of Mr Atanas Botev.
gogu
news:ae30cc34-ce55-45a3...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>The billbords are property of the Cultural-Informative Centre -
>Skopje, and
>they are an advertisement of the exhibition of Atanas Botev, that is
>held in
>that Centre from April 3rd to May 3rd. Atanas Botev explained himself,
>that
>the swastika was forever considered by him and his family as a sign
>for health
>and prosperity, so that it is strange for him the reaction of the
>Greek
>government. He himself has his roots in Solun (Thessaloniki). There
>his
>family has been in help to the German liberators in the WW II, and
>because of that
>was forced to emigrate after the war. A CULTURAL EVENT cannot be a
>reason
>for worsening of the relations between two neighbouring countries.
>That
>would be the reply by the Macedonian External Affairs Ministry to the
>Greek note for taking away the billbords. The billbords would remain
>until
>the end of the exhibition of Mr Atanas Botev.
You are so sad!!!
"German liberators in the WW II"????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL LOL LOL
You filthy NAZI!
Do you really believe that the desecration of Greece's ethnic symbol can be
"excused" as artistic poetry and the swastika in the place of the cross
embellished as a symbol of..."luck"?!!
It is obvious that the good old commie manners are not forgotten in FYROM!
Boy, you've made it again; the whole world can see now who the intransigent
and the extremist are!
Thank you for shooting your own foot;-)
PWN!
andy...@gmail.com
>
> The billbords are property of the Cultural-Informative Centre -
> Skopje, and
> they are an advertisement of the exhibition of Atanas Botev, that is
> held in
> that Centre from April 3rd to May 3rd. Atanas Botev explained himself,
> that
> the swastika was forever considered by him and his family as a sign
> for health
> and prosperity, so that it is strange for him the reaction of the
> Greek
> government. He himself has his roots in Solun (Thessaloniki). There
> his
> family has been in help to the German liberators in the WW II, and
> because of that
> was forced to emigrate after the war. A CULTURAL EVENT cannot be a
> reason
> for worsening of the relations between two neighbouring countries.
> That
> would be the reply by the Macedonian External Affairs Ministry to the
> Greek note for taking away the billbords. The billbords would remain
> until
Not a very convincing yarn, I am afraid. Mr Botev seems to delight in
deliberately provoking and insulting the Greeks. He is either a
ruthless publicity-seeker who will do anything to be noticed (the most
likely explanation) or a reckless provocateur who just hates Greece
and can't keep his hatred to himself. Either way he's a menace to the
image and interests of his own country, as there is no way on earth
anyone outside FYROM is likely to be particularly impressed by his
"art".
andy...@gmail.com
> ? "pavel" <pavelmakedon...@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:ae30cc34-ce55-45a3...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Gogu, you do realize that you are reacting in exactly the way Mr Botev
hopes you will react, don't you? Insulting FYROM in turn is just
playing right into his hands. I'm not telling you what to do, but I
would not allow myself to be manipulated in this way.
> Boy, you've made it again; the whole world can see now who the intransigent
> and the extremist are!
That's right. That's why ignoring the offensive billboard, calmly but
firmly expressing your displeasure and disgust (or quietly filing a
lawsuit) is the best thing to do.
> Thank you for shooting your own foot;-)
> PWN!-
gogu
news:40e658f0-c92c-471c...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Who has insulted FYROM?! I have insulted *him* by calling him a nazi,
although it is not actually an insult given the way he thinks is a nazi way
(Nazi Germans="liberators!!!), so I have just stated the truth!
>I'm not telling you what to do, but I
>would not allow myself to be manipulated in this way.
I am not manipulated, I am just stating the *TRUTH*!
What part of the word "truth" you don't understand?!
>> Boy, you've made it again; the whole world can see now who the
>> intransigent
>> and the extremist are!
>That's right. That's why ignoring the offensive billboard, calmly but
>firmly expressing your displeasure and disgust (or quietly filing a
>lawsuit) is the best thing to do.
I am quite calm, I fail to see why you think otherwise!
I have not called him names nor I reacted against *all* FYROM-ians by
calling them "nazis", I just called *him* a nazi which is something quite
easy to prove, just read his so called "explanations"!
rapto...@gmail.com
ATAHAC БOTEB
Atanas Botev
From his interview April 2 2008
Q: You put the Nazi swastika intending to give a particular meaning
[to the poster]?
A: " It has nothing to do with the Nazi symbol what I did. I thing
whoever looks it up will understand. Swastika is an ancient symbol. In
India and other civilizations it was used to describe eternal life and
well-being. It is a symbolism that pertains to my family. I reiterate,
it is a personal story. You can interpret it in another way. I am
telling you what the work represents."
What can I say..... more, is he cohones-less on top of all...???
now he's adding injury to insult literaly.
foto of the art and the artist
http://raptoriona.googlepages.com/home
ERIC
partly explain the stupidity and hostility of some of their politicos,
scholars and intelligentsia.
<rapto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:92fd7269-c561-45b1...@r9g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I saw this interview of the poster maker:
ATAHAC âOTEB
skop...@gmail.com
former Macedonian territory that was given to Greece in the treaty of
Bucharest in 1913. Very symbolically, the NATO treaty is held in
Bucharest and once again Greece will try to strip Macedonian from its
earned opportunity to join NATO and.
Botev's art does not desecrate the Greek flag. That is too harsh of a
word to be used in this "scandal" because we all know how flags of
states have been parodied and altered in the name of art and freedom.
The best example of that would be the American flag which has been
stepped on, burned, ripped and riddled with many swastikas on many
occasions. Greece has to stop spinning things in favor to their
political stance towards Macedonia, those of persecution, isolation
and irresponsibility in diplomatic motions against my country which
have left it hanging behind during time when it could rebound and
become a decent place for living.
Recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece, acknowledge the exodus in
the past 100 years and make peace with us. Greece CAN NOT monopolize
the name "Macedonia". We will not allow it and the world knows who is
who. The only backing that Greece has comes because of capital.
andy...@gmail.com
> Atanas Botev's family was expulsed from Aegan Macedonia, part of the
> former Macedonian territory that was given to Greece in the treaty of
> Bucharest in 1913. Very symbolically, the NATO treaty is held in
> Bucharest and once again Greece will try to strip Macedonian from its
> earned opportunity to join NATO and.
> Botev's art does not desecrate the Greek flag. That is too harsh of a
> word to be used in this "scandal" because we all know how flags of
> states have been parodied and altered in the name of art and freedom.
> The best example of that would be the American flag which has been
> stepped on, burned, ripped and riddled with many swastikas on many
> occasions.
True, but the one in FYROM is glaring at everyone from a billboard
during a particularly sensitive time. It's a bad idea, and whether or
not Greece is overreacting is irrelevant.
> Greece has to stop spinning things in favor to their
> political stance towards Macedonia, those of persecution, isolation
> and irresponsibility in diplomatic motions against my country which
> have left it hanging behind during time when it could rebound and
> become a decent place for living.
Everyone has to stop spinning things in Southeastern Europe. Everyone
is guilty, so everyone has to vut it out.
>
> Recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece, acknowledge the exodus in
> the past 100 years and make peace with us.
Sounds pretty sensible to me.
> Greece CAN NOT monopolize
> the name "Macedonia". We will not allow it and the world knows who is
> who. The only backing that Greece has comes because of capital.
Very odd how each side accuses the other of attempting to "monopolize"
the name, isn't it?
ERIC
>
> Recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece, acknowledge the exodus in
> the past 100 years and make peace with us.
Sounds pretty sensible to me.
NO, andytoole, it is not sensible. You can't build a house on a rotten
foundation and you cannot agree to recognize any such 'macedonian minority'
because such a thing simply does not exist. There are slav macedonians,
Vlach macedonians, Greek Macedonians, roma macedonians, Albanian and
Bulgarian macedonians ------- when the slav speakers of the FYROM declare
themselves to be 'the macedonians' they usurp the rights and existence of
the majority of the peoples that live in a larger region called Macedonian
that are not slav speakers.
> Greece CAN NOT monopolize
> the name "Macedonia". We will not allow it and the world knows who is
> who. The only backing that Greece has comes because of capital.
Greece IS NOT monopolizing any such thing....how is the name Upper
Macedonia, as stated by Athens as an acceptable geographic identifier name
for the FYROM monopolizing anything???? It is the FYROM slav speakers,
building on a rotting irredentist policy of claiming the home of more 2.5
million Greek Macedonians as their own, that endlessly (and uselessly) seeks
to monopolize the name "Macedonia".
Very odd how each side accuses the other of attempting to "monopolize"
the name, isn't it?
Yes, an especially an odd remark to make in the light that Greece is NOT
monopolizing any such name
UPPER MACEDONIA does not monopolize the name, correct???
andy...@gmail.com
> > Recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece, acknowledge the exodus in
> > the past 100 years and make peace with us.
>
> Sounds pretty sensible to me.
>
> NO, andytoole, it is not sensible. You can't build a house on a rotten
> foundation and you cannot agree to recognize any such 'macedonian minority'
> because such a thing simply does not exist.
Are there people within the present borders of the Hellenic Republic
who believe themselves to be Macedonian Slavs? If there are, I think
it's a fair assumption that such a thing does exist.
> There are slav macedonians,
> Vlach macedonians, Greek Macedonians, roma macedonians, Albanian and
> Bulgarian macedonians ------- when the slav speakers of the FYROM declare
> themselves to be 'the macedonians' they usurp the rights and existence of
> the majority of the peoples that live in a larger region called Macedonian
> that are not slav speakers.
How can anyone's rights be violated by naming a country something?
>
> > Greece CAN NOT monopolize
> > the name "Macedonia". We will not allow it and the world knows who is
> > who. The only backing that Greece has comes because of capital.
>
> Greece IS NOT monopolizing any such thing....how is the name Upper
> Macedonia, as stated by Athens as an acceptable geographic identifier name
> for the FYROM monopolizing anything????
I don't think that it monopolizes anything. But it would seem that at
least one person believes that it does, and I think it's a fair
assumption that there are three or four others. Therein lies the rub.
> It is the FYROM slav speakers,
> building on a rotting irredentist policy of claiming the home of more 2.5
> million Greek Macedonians as their own, that endlessly (and uselessly) seeks
> to monopolize the name "Macedonia".
Once again, each side in the debate is accusing the other of the same
thing. A very peculiar (and typically "Balkan") dilemma.
>
>> Very odd how each side accuses the other of attempting to "monopolize"
>> the name, isn't it?
>
> Yes, an especially an odd remark to make in the light that Greece is NOT
> monopolizing any such name
> UPPER MACEDONIA does not monopolize the name, correct???
Correct. But the usual conviction that there are umpteen hidden
agendas and major bad faith and conspiracies galore prevents either
side from believing anything the other says.
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:40e658f0-c92c-471c...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
> >Gogu, you do realize that you are reacting in exactly the way Mr Botev
> >hopes you will react, don't you? Insulting FYROM in turn is just
> >playing right into his hands.
>
> Who has insulted FYROM?! I have insulted *him* by calling him a nazi,
> although it is not actually an insult given the way he thinks is a nazi way
> (Nazi Germans="liberators!!!), so I have just stated the truth!
I suppose you have a point. It seems pretty nutty to say such a thing.
>
> >I'm not telling you what to do, but I
> >would not allow myself to be manipulated in this way.
>
> I am not manipulated, I am just stating the *TRUTH*!
> What part of the word "truth" you don't understand?!
Well, I think that anyone who lets them be provoked by someone who is
deliberately trying to provoke them is being manipulated.
>
> >> Boy, you've made it again; the whole world can see now who the
> >> intransigent
> >> and the extremist are!
> >That's right. That's why ignoring the offensive billboard, calmly but
> >firmly expressing your displeasure and disgust (or quietly filing a
> >lawsuit) is the best thing to do.
>
> I am quite calm, I fail to see why you think otherwise!
> I have not called him names nor I reacted against *all* FYROM-ians by
> calling them "nazis", I just called *him* a nazi which is something quite
> easy to prove, just read his so called "explanations
Like I said, you have a point. I apologize if I took all the !!!!!!!'s
and *****'s as a sign of rage ;-)
skop...@gmail.com
a rotten
foundation and you cannot agree to recognize any such 'macedonian
minority'
macedonians,
Vlach macedonians, Greek Macedonians, roma macedonians, Albanian and
Bulgarian macedonians ------- when the slav speakers of the FYROM
declare
themselves to be 'the macedonians' they usurp the rights and existence
of
the majority of the peoples that live in a larger region called
Macedonian
A 100,000 orphaned Macedonian children were put on trains and sent to
Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, and former
Yugoslavia. I don't think they left happily. Their parents were
murdered, their villages burned down. That kind of number 50 or 60
years ago would have resulted in at least 2 million people today.
Greeks have committed a horrible act of cruelty and there are people
today that live with this. I know personally lots and lots of
Macedonians whose parents were born in Aegan Macedonia. We have come
to terms with the fact that piece of land is now Greece. But at least
stop bothering us and let us be who we are. We are Macedonians, we
live in Macedonia. Our neighbors to the south have pioneered
homosexuality, they were great orators and philosophers but NEVER
great conquerors. That's why you want to monopolize Macedonia and
claim Alexander to be a greek. He conquered in the name of Macedonia
and history shows that. History also shows that those Macedonians from
2000 years ago were a distinct people from the hellens...whatever
those were.
anyway, this is just beating down my keyboard and it doesn't do any
good. you are as stubborn as donkeys and you will never change your
opinion and even showing little humanity is beyond your bigot soul.
Let it rot. Nature is paying you back.
gogu
news:92fd7269-c561-45b1...@r9g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>ATAHAC БOTEB
>Atanas Botev
--------------------
What can I say, low educated people passing as intelectuals...
gogu
news:o9PIj.20563$rd2.14149@pd7urf3no...
> Is it something in their water supply? Too much trace lead or mercury
> could partly explain the stupidity and hostility of some of their
> politicos, scholars and intelligentsia.
LOL
This must be the case;-)
> <rapto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:92fd7269-c561-45b1...@r9g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> I saw this interview of the poster maker:
>
> ATAHAC βOTEB
gogu
>Are there people within the present borders of the Hellenic Republic
>who believe themselves to be Macedonian Slavs? If there are, I think
>it's a fair assumption that such a thing does exist.
Well, they do exist, about 4.590 of them!!!!
Can we talk about a "minotity"?!...
Your obtuse answer.
OTOH there are more people in Greece who think they are Marchians, can we
ask for a minority status for them?!
Come on!!!!
>> There are slav macedonians,
>> Vlach macedonians, Greek Macedonians, roma macedonians, Albanian and
>> Bulgarian macedonians ------- when the slav speakers of the FYROM declare
>> themselves to be 'the macedonians' they usurp the rights and existence of
>> >> the majority of the peoples that live in a larger region called
>> Macedonian
> that are not slav speakers.
>How can anyone's rights be violated by naming a country something?
Let me remember you that when the Great Britain wanted to become an UE (EEC
by then) member, France thought *exactly* the same as Greece and opposed
Britain's adherence with the name "Great Britain" and *FORCED* it to adhere
under the name of UK!
So ther are similar cases in the passed which we should consider when
talking about FYROM and Greece.
gogu
>On Apr 2, 2:59 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ???
> ??????news:40e658f0-c92c-471c...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>> Who has insulted FYROM?! I have insulted *him* by calling him a nazi,
>> although it is not actually an insult given the way he thinks is a nazi
>> way
>> (Nazi Germans="liberators!!!), so I have just stated the truth!
>I suppose you have a point. It seems pretty nutty to say such a thing.
And...?...
It shows who the intransigent is and that Skopie (the politicians) don't
really want a solution!
>> I am not manipulated, I am just stating the *TRUTH*!
>> What part of the word "truth" you don't understand?!
>Well, I think that anyone who lets them be provoked by someone who is
>deliberately trying to provoke them is being manipulated.
But I showed you I am not!
If you don't undersant this I'm sorry but I can't help!
>> I am quite calm, I fail to see why you think otherwise!
>> I have not called him names nor I reacted against *all* FYROM-ians by
>> calling them "nazis", I just called *him* a nazi which is something quite
>> easy to prove, just read his so called "explanations
>Like I said, you have a point. I apologize if I took all the !!!!!!!'s
>and *****'s as a sign of rage ;-)
Ok, but when I (and everyone AFAIK) use *.......* means that I put an
emphasis on the word included there!
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:8221307a-17b8-4370...@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Are there people within the present borders of the Hellenic Republic
> >who believe themselves to be Macedonian Slavs? If there are, I think
> >it's a fair assumption that such a thing does exist.
>
> Well, they do exist, about 4.590 of them!!!!
> Can we talk about a "minotity"?!...
> Your obtuse answer.
Maybe there ought to be a census, no? Wouldn't that solve the
conundrum?
>
> OTOH there are more people in Greece who think they are Marchians, can we
> ask for a minority status for them?!
> Come on!!!!
Who said anything about minority status?
>
> >> There are slav macedonians,
> >> Vlach macedonians, Greek Macedonians, roma macedonians, Albanian and
> >> Bulgarian macedonians ------- when the slav speakers of the FYROM declare
> >> themselves to be 'the macedonians' they usurp the rights and existence of
> >> >> the majority of the peoples that live in a larger region called
> >> Macedonian
> > that are not slav speakers.
> >How can anyone's rights be violated by naming a country something?
>
> Let me remember you that when the Great Britain wanted to become an UE (EEC
> by then) member, France thought *exactly* the same as Greece and opposed
> Britain's adherence with the name "Great Britain" and *FORCED* it to adhere
> under the name of UK!
Then France was being absurd. Does someone else's absurdity justify
one's own?
> So ther are similar cases in the passed which we should consider when
> talking about FYROM and Greece.
Once again, just because France did something half a century ago
doesn't mean it made sense then or now to do it.
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:738590d3-25e2-4b13...@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Apr 2, 2:59 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
> > ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ???
> > ??????news:40e658f0-c92c-471c...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> >> Who has insulted FYROM?! I have insulted *him* by calling him a nazi,
> >> although it is not actually an insult given the way he thinks is a nazi
> >> way
> >> (Nazi Germans="liberators!!!), so I have just stated the truth!
> >I suppose you have a point. It seems pretty nutty to say such a thing.
>
> And...?...
> It shows who the intransigent is and that Skopie (the politicians) don't
> really want a solution!
I think everyone is being ridiculously intransigent over things that
really shouldn't matter in the modern world.
>
> >> I am not manipulated, I am just stating the *TRUTH*!
> >> What part of the word "truth" you don't understand?!
> >Well, I think that anyone who lets them be provoked by someone who is
> >deliberately trying to provoke them is being manipulated.
>
> But I showed you I am not!
> If you don't undersant this I'm sorry but I can't help!
It's an old trick. Do something outrageous and sit back and watch the
Pavolovian response. Some ignoramus insults some national symbol or
myth and next thing you know there are huge demonstrations and demands
for revenge.
andy...@gmail.com
> ********NO, andytoole, it is not sensible. You can't build a house on
> a rotten
> foundation and you cannot agree to recognize any such 'macedonian
> minority'
> because such a thing simply does not exist. There are slav
> macedonians,
> Vlach macedonians, Greek Macedonians, roma macedonians, Albanian and
> Bulgarian macedonians ------- when the slav speakers of the FYROM
> declare
> themselves to be 'the macedonians' they usurp the rights and existence
> of
> the majority of the peoples that live in a larger region called
> Macedonian
> that are not slav speakers. **********
>
> A 100,000 orphaned Macedonian children were put on trains and sent to
> Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, and former
> Yugoslavia. I don't think they left happily. Their parents were
> murdered, their villages burned down. That kind of number 50 or 60
> years ago would have resulted in at least 2 million people today.
Skopy, this has happened to everyone in the region. I am not trying to
downplay the real suffering in the region, but there's only one way to
prevent it from ever happening again, and that is to make sure it
doesn't happen to anyone. If we are to honour the memories of the
people you describe, we must ensure that this never again happens to
Greeks, Albanians, Bulgars, Turks, or Ecuadorians.
> Greeks have committed a horrible act of cruelty and there are people
> today that live with this. I know personally lots and lots of
> Macedonians whose parents were born in Aegan Macedonia. We have come
> to terms with the fact that piece of land is now Greece. But at least
> stop bothering us and let us be who we are.
Sounds reasonable enough.
> We are Macedonians, we
> live in Macedonia. Our neighbors to the south have pioneered
> homosexuality,
Now you are going too far.
> they were great orators and philosophers but NEVER
> great conquerors.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Athens in the 5thC BC came very close
to becoming the Rome of the ancient world, and were only prevented
from doing so by a coalition of other Greeks.
> That's why you want to monopolize Macedonia and
> claim Alexander to be a greek.
Here we go again. The accusation (or perhaps honest conviction) that
the other guy is trying to "monopolize" something.
> He conquered in the name of Macedonia
> and history shows that. History also shows that those Macedonians from
> 2000 years ago were a distinct people from the hellens...whatever
> those were.
History is best left in the history books, especially if what happened
2000 years ago is making people miserable today.
>
> anyway, this is just beating down my keyboard and it doesn't do any
> good. you are as stubborn as donkeys and you will never change your
> opinion and even showing little humanity is beyond your bigot soul.
Stubborn as donkeys? Well, from the outside it looks as though
everyone in the region fits that description.
> Let it rot. Nature is paying you back.
I believe that people are paying themselves back but are too blind to
see it.
gogu
>On Apr 3, 3:59 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> Well, they do exist, about 4.590 of them!!!!
>> Can we talk about a "minotity"?!...
>> Your obtuse answer.
>Maybe there ought to be a census, no? Wouldn't that solve the
>conundrum?
We obviously have a communication problem here, or maybe you don't know
things more in depth.
Sooooo!...
The Skopian minority in Greece has made a party which participated to the
elections, that's the "Rainbow" party that is.
They took around 4.500 votes and if we add young children who don't vote
let's say they are around 7.000.
Is this better than a census or not?
>> OTOH there are more people in Greece who think they are Marchians, can we
>> ask for a minority status for them?!
>> Come on!!!!
>Who said anything about minority status?
*THEY* say!
>> Let me remember you that when the Great Britain wanted to become an UE
>> (EEC
>> by then) member, France thought *exactly* the same as Greece and opposed
>> Britain's adherence with the name "Great Britain" and *FORCED* it to
>> adhere
>> under the name of UK!
>Then France was being absurd.
History proves you wrong Sir!
>Does someone else's absurdity justify
>one's own?
In every civilized law system the answer is a resounding... YES!
Have you ever heard of precedence in law?
And as the problem is one that is worked in accordance with (international)
laws, I say that precedence is quite important!
>> So ther are similar cases in the passed which we should consider when
>> talking about FYROM and Greece.
>Once again, just because France did something half a century ago
>doesn't mean it made sense then or now to do it.
This is what you think, let the rest of the world think otherwise!
Just let me remind that many countries are regulating their bilateral
relations based on treaties more than half a century old!
Only revizionists use this kind of reasoning!
gogu
>Skopy, this has happened to everyone in the region. I am not trying to
>downplay the real suffering in the region, but there's only one way to
>prevent it from ever happening again, and that is to make sure it
>doesn't happen to anyone. If we are to honour the memories of the
>people you describe, we must ensure that this never again happens to
>Greeks, Albanians, Bulgars, Turks, or Ecuadorians.
Then let's try and leave borders the way they are!
*This* is the only solution!
>> Greeks have committed a horrible act of cruelty and there are people
>> today that live with this. I know personally lots and lots of
>> Macedonians whose parents were born in Aegan Macedonia. We have come
>> to terms with the fact that piece of land is now Greece. But at least
>> stop bothering us and let us be who we are.
>Sounds reasonable enough.
No, it's not!
because according to us the slavs are thise who "...have committed a
horrible act of cruelty and there are people today that live with this.."!
So?!...
>Stubborn as donkeys? Well, from the outside it looks as though
>everyone in the region fits that description.
You are unfair!
Greece went half the way down the road (against our pride...), everybody was
expecting FYROM to do the same, but they didn't!
I wonder who is the stubborn here...
gogu
>On Apr 3, 4:08 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> And...?...
>> It shows who the intransigent is and that Skopie (the politicians) don't
>> really want a solution!
>I think everyone is being ridiculously intransigent over things that
>really shouldn't matter in the modern world.
I beg to differ!
Greece has shown its good will, FYROM has shown its bad will!
The whole wold has seen it and that's why the veto of Greece was rather easy
in the NATO summit!
The posters of the flag of Greece with the swastika have helped us very
much, thanks FYROM-ians;-)
>> But I showed you I am not!
>> If you don't undersant this I'm sorry but I can't help!
>It's an old trick. Do something outrageous and sit back and watch the
>Pavolovian response. Some ignoramus insults some national symbol or
>myth and next thing you know there are huge demonstrations and demands
>for revenge.
But as I said I did nothing of short!
Now if you insist I did, well, what can I do more to convince you?!
I can just tell you "have a nice evening"!
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:9940697c-ffa8-409c...@z38g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Apr 3, 3:59 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
> >> Well, they do exist, about 4.590 of them!!!!
> >> Can we talk about a "minotity"?!...
> >> Your obtuse answer.
> >Maybe there ought to be a census, no? Wouldn't that solve the
> >conundrum?
>
> We obviously have a communication problem here, or maybe you don't know
> things more in depth.
> Sooooo!...
> The Skopian minority in Greece has made a party which participated to the
> elections, that's the "Rainbow" party that is.
> They took around 4.500 votes and if we add young children who don't vote
> let's say they are around 7.000.
> Is this better than a census or not?
Not really, but it's a start. But I think we are finally getting
somewhere, as at least there is an admission that these people exist.
>
> >> OTOH there are more people in Greece who think they are Marchians, can we
> >> ask for a minority status for them?!
> >> Come on!!!!
> >Who said anything about minority status?
>
> *THEY* say!
It was implied that I was advocating minority status for them.
Minority status is just another silly nod to ethnic nationalism, and I
don't support it at all - except under circumstances when both groups
freely negotiate an association and agree to respect each others'
differences. Switzerland.
>
> >> Let me remember you that when the Great Britain wanted to become an UE
> >> (EEC
> >> by then) member, France thought *exactly* the same as Greece and opposed
> >> Britain's adherence with the name "Great Britain" and *FORCED* it to
> >> adhere
> >> under the name of UK!
> >Then France was being absurd.
>
> History proves you wrong Sir!
What exactly did France gain from all that, apart from looking stupid
and irritating the British? How, concretely, did France benefit?
>
> >Does someone else's absurdity justify
> >one's own?
>
> In every civilized law system the answer is a resounding... YES!
> Have you ever heard of precedence in law?
I read about it somewhere once, yes ....
> And as the problem is one that is worked in accordance with (international)
> laws, I say that precedence is quite important!
That's not law; that is diplomacy. The two are quite different, and I
don't think that diplomacy sets any precedents, apart from I-wanna-get-
away-with-what-you-got-away-with! ;-)
>
> >> So ther are similar cases in the passed which we should consider when
> >> talking about FYROM and Greece.
> >Once again, just because France did something half a century ago
> >doesn't mean it made sense then or now to do it.
>
> This is what you think, let the rest of the world think otherwise!
How did it make sense? How did France benefit? Does irritating the
British and looking pedantic somehow benefit France?
> Just let me remind that many countries are regulating their bilateral
> relations based on treaties more than half a century old!
I agree. But does the passage of 50 years somehow make a treaty
sensible or morally justifiable? I can think of a few immoral and/or
stupid treaties that are more than 50 years old, and I bet you can
too.
> Only revizionists use this kind of reasoning!
Sticks and stones may break my bones .... ;-)
andy...@gmail.com
(geshnippen)
>
> Then let's try and leave borders the way they are!
> *This* is the only solution!
I agree.
>
> >> Greeks have committed a horrible act of cruelty and there are people
> >> today that live with this. I know personally lots and lots of
> >> Macedonians whose parents were born in Aegan Macedonia. We have come
> >> to terms with the fact that piece of land is now Greece. But at least
> >> stop bothering us and let us be who we are.
> >Sounds reasonable enough.
>
> No, it's not!
> because according to us the slavs are thise who "...have committed a
> horrible act of cruelty and there are people today that live with this.."!
> So?!...
Isn't that interesting. Everyone agrees that horrible atrocities took
place, but can't agree on who committed them. What everyone does seem
to agree on is that WE are the victims and THEY are the perpetrators.
>
> >Stubborn as donkeys? Well, from the outside it looks as though
> >everyone in the region fits that description.
>
> You are unfair!
> Greece went half the way down the road (against our pride...), everybody was
> expecting FYROM to do the same, but they didn't!
> I wonder who is the stubborn here...
In this case, the Macedonians (or whatever you care to call them) look
rather mulish and self-destructive. But that's just in this case. We
all know that all the peoples of Southeastern Europe are proverbial
for their stubbornness, and it seems silly for one nationality to
accuse the other of stubbornness.
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:761a9bd1-2b87-4b11...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Apr 3, 4:08 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
> >> And...?...
> >> It shows who the intransigent is and that Skopie (the politicians) don't
> >> really want a solution!
> >I think everyone is being ridiculously intransigent over things that
> >really shouldn't matter in the modern world.
>
> I beg to differ!
> Greece has shown its good will, FYROM has shown its bad will!
I wonder what the FYROMians would say about that ....
> The whole wold has seen it and that's why the veto of Greece was rather easy
> in the NATO summit!
It does look that way, but be careful of mistaking political
expediency with support for Greece's position. France in particular
wants to cozy up to Russia, and Russia is wary of NATO's growing
strength. As well, the world might think that both parties are being a
bit silly. The BBC describes it thus:
"This is probably one of the more bizarre contemporary diplomatic
disagreements, but the Greeks fear that Macedonia retains claims to
Greek territory. The Macedonians say they do not."
> The posters of the flag of Greece with the swastika have helped us very
> much, thanks FYROM-ians;-)
You're right there.
>
> >> But I showed you I am not!
> >> If you don't undersant this I'm sorry but I can't help!
> >It's an old trick. Do something outrageous and sit back and watch the
> >Pavolovian response. Some ignoramus insults some national symbol or
> >myth and next thing you know there are huge demonstrations and demands
> >for revenge.
>
> But as I said I did nothing of short!
I apologize. Maybe you weren't, but plenty of people did, no?
> Now if you insist I did, well, what can I do more to convince you?!
> I can just tell you "have a nice evening"!
And a good night to you too, sir! ;-)
ADR
> It does look that way, but be careful of mistaking political
> expediency with support for Greece's position. France in particular
> wants to cozy up to Russia, and Russia is wary of NATO's growing
> strength. As well, the world might think that both parties are being a
> bit silly. The BBC describes it thus:
>
> "This is probably one of the more bizarre contemporary diplomatic
> disagreements, but the Greeks fear that Macedonia retains claims to
> Greek territory. The Macedonians say they do not."
With all respect to BBC, it does not know what it is talking about. I
seriously doubt that successive Greek goverments and virtually the
totallity of Greeks have been "silly" for so many year. The issue
appears a dispute about a name but it is really not. This is only the
manifestation. The issue is the core identity of two groups. Attacks
against ones identity are far more all encompassing than attacks
against territory, If one accepts the FYROM thesis, I, a Macedonian
and a Greek, whose family has resided in Macedonia for centuries, am
no more than a "Greek occupier" of "Aegean Macedonia". Despite
declarations that FYROM has no territorial aspirations, "Greater
Macedonia" maps are in evidence virtually everywhere in FYROM and a
claim on Greek history has been clearly made by renaming the Skopje
airport "Alexander the Great" (a stupidity beyond all proportions as
we know that Alexander is really "on record" on his Greek identity).
But FYROM has been neither clever nor inoffensive. Although I do hope
that sanity prevails and we all reach a mutually beneficial
compromise, I think that we need to transverse a lot more controversy
and conflict until FYROM accepts that the Greek proposal is both
desirable and honorable.
andy...@gmail.com
> > It does look that way, but be careful of mistaking political
> > expediency with support for Greece's position. France in particular
> > wants to cozy up to Russia, and Russia is wary of NATO's growing
> > strength. As well, the world might think that both parties are being a
> > bit silly. The BBC describes it thus:
>
> > "This is probably one of the more bizarre contemporary diplomatic
> > disagreements, but the Greeks fear that Macedonia retains claims to
> > Greek territory. The Macedonians say they do not."
>
> With all respect to BBC, it does not know what it is talking about. I
> seriously doubt that successive Greek goverments and virtually the
> totallity of Greeks have been "silly" for so many year. The issue
> appears a dispute about a name but it is really not. This is only the
> manifestation. The issue is the core identity of two groups.
This too seems bizarre and silly to those outside the Balkans.
> Attacks
> against ones identity are far more all encompassing than attacks
> against territory, If one accepts the FYROM thesis, I, a Macedonian
> and a Greek, whose family has resided in Macedonia for centuries, am
> no more than a "Greek occupier" of "Aegean Macedonia".
That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
> Despite
> declarations that FYROM has no territorial aspirations, "Greater
> Macedonia" maps are in evidence virtually everywhere in FYROM and a
> claim on Greek history has been clearly made by renaming the Skopje
> airport "Alexander the Great" (a stupidity beyond all proportions as
> we know that Alexander is really "on record" on his Greek identity).
The very fact that people are still quarrelling over what Alexander
was (or was not) after 2500 years is bizarre too.
> But FYROM has been neither clever nor inoffensive. Although I do hope
> that sanity prevails and we all reach a mutually beneficial
> compromise, I think that we need to transverse a lot more controversy
> and conflict until FYROM accepts that the Greek proposal is both
> desirable and honorable.
What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
gogu
>On Apr 3, 11:43 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> We obviously have a communication problem here, or maybe you don't know
>> things more in depth.
>> Sooooo!...
>> The Skopian minority in Greece has made a party which participated to the
>> elections, that's the "Rainbow" party that is.
>> They took around 4.500 votes and if we add young children who don't vote
>> let's say they are around 7.000.
>> Is this better than a census or not?
>Not really, but it's a start. But I think we are finally getting
>somewhere, as at least there is an admission that these people exist.
No one ever denied in Greece that there are a couple of (slav) bozos in
Greece thinking they are the..."real" Macedonians!
As I said, first get informed and then talk!
>> >Then France was being absurd.
>> History proves you wrong Sir!
>What exactly did France gain from all that, apart from looking stupid
>and irritating the British? How, concretely, did France benefit?
I really don't care if they won or lose something, I've just *PROVED* to you
that there is precedence, that's all!
As for if they won something, please address your questions to a French...
But if you want a wild guess from me, I'd say "national pride"!
National pride may be something worthless for you but let other people think
otherwise...
>> >Does someone else's absurdity justify
>> >one's own?
>> In every civilized law system the answer is a resounding... YES!
>> Have you ever heard of precedence in law?
>I read about it somewhere once, yes ....
Then your question(s) have no meaning because you should have guessed the
answers already!
>> And as the problem is one that is worked in accordance with
>> (international)
>> laws, I say that precedence is quite important!
>That's not law; that is diplomacy.
International problems are solved by diplomacy *BASED* on (international)
laws!
>The two are quite different,
No Sir, they are not!
And I have served the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for several years...
>and I
>don't think that diplomacy sets any precedents,
Not diplomacy but treaties and/or legal agreements!
>apart from I-wanna-get-
>away-with-what-you-got-away-with! ;-)
Well, rather silly but...
>> This is what you think, let the rest of the world think otherwise!
>How did it make sense? How did France benefit? Does irritating the
>British and looking pedantic somehow benefit France?
As for if they won something, please address your questions to a French...
But if you want a wild guess from me, I'd say "national pride"!
National pride may be something worthless for you but let other people think
otherwise...
>> Just let me remind that many countries are regulating their bilateral
>> relations based on treaties more than half a century old!
>I agree. But does the passage of 50 years somehow make a treaty
>sensible or morally justifiable?
YES!
>I can think of a few immoral and/or
>stupid treaties that are more than 50 years old, and I bet you can
>too.
We don't examine the morality of treaties but if the fact that they are
older than 50 or 100 years give to one of the parts the right to dispute
them!
And there is no such precedence in the international law!
Period!
>> Only revizionists use this kind of reasoning!
>Sticks and stones may break my bones .... ;-)
I was not referring to you (but to FYROM-ians) but you know that old saying,
don't you?
gogu
>On Apr 3, 11:52 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ???
>> ??????news:761a9bd1-2b87-4b11...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >On Apr 3, 4:08 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> >> And...?...
>> >> It shows who the intransigent is and that Skopie (the politicians)
>> >> don't
>> >> really want a solution!
>> >I think everyone is being ridiculously intransigent over things that
>> >really shouldn't matter in the modern world.
>> I beg to differ!
>> Greece has shown its good will, FYROM has shown its bad will!
>I wonder what the FYROMians would say about that ....
I really don't care, I care about what the rest of the world said and the
rest of the world recognized the effort made by Greece and waited for a
similar movement from the other side.
Which of course never came...
>> The whole wold has seen it and that's why the veto of Greece was rather
>> easy
>> in the NATO summit!
>It does look that way,
Then you shouldn't do the previous remark!
>"This is probably one of the more bizarre contemporary diplomatic
>disagreements, but the Greeks fear that Macedonia retains claims to
>Greek territory. The Macedonians say they do not."
Oh, come on!
You are naive or of bad faith!
What else can that swastika over Greece's flag can mean?
The respect FYROM's PM paid to their national hero in front of a map with
"Macedonia" extending till Olympus?!
What else the rename of their airport to "Alexander the Great" can mean?!
What else the abundance of maps comprising half Greece in their school books
can mean?!
And so on, and so on...
The guys are desperate to "become something", they suffer from an immense
inferiority complex, luck of a real identity and they are desperately trying
to invent a glorious past!
>> But as I said I did nothing of short!
>I apologize. Maybe you weren't, but plenty of people did, no?
I am not responsible for their actions/words.
Everyone is judged by its own words.
gogu
>On Apr 3, 11:48 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> No, it's not!
>> because according to us the slavs are thise who "...have committed a
>> horrible act of cruelty and there are people today that live with
>> this.."!
>> So?!...
>Isn't that interesting. Everyone agrees that horrible atrocities took
>place, but can't agree on who committed them.
You see, this is the case with these neo-commies of Skopie!
Whil me as a Greek have no problem to admit that some Greeks did nasty
things to slavs, they say that slavs are innocent angels and that *only*
Greeks have done nusty things to them!
Now pray tell, what sane person can accept something like that, I mean
attrocities in a a war have been done only by one of the parts?!
That's why I say that these neo-commies are still reasoning with the old
commie theory about great lies hoping that someone will buy them!
Poor bastards, they don't realize that the whole world is laughing on them!
>What everyone does seem
>to agree on is that WE are the victims and THEY are the perpetrators.
And that's why I say that they are still reasoning with that old commie way
of thinking!
Who can believe such an idiocy?!
At least Greeks do not say that, we admit that nasty thing have been done by
both parts, that's the way wars are!
FYROM-ians OTOH try to pass as poooor victims, a bunch of real angels!
Who they think can fool???!
>> You are unfair!
>> Greece went half the way down the road (against our pride...), everybody
>> was
>> expecting FYROM to do the same, but they didn't!
>> I wonder who is the stubborn here...
>In this case, the Macedonians (or whatever you care to call them) look
>rather mulish and self-destructive.
And that's exactly what they are doing!
They have a serious problem with a35% strong Albanian minority in their
country and if they don't understand that the only real allie they can have
in the region is Greece, I am affraid they are going to pay it hard soon...
ADR
> On Apr 3, 5:08 pm, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It does look that way, but be careful of mistaking political
> > > expediency with support for Greece's position. France in particular
> > > wants to cozy up to Russia, and Russia is wary of NATO's growing
> > > strength. As well, the world might think that both parties are being a
> > > bit silly. The BBC describes it thus:
>
> > > "This is probably one of the more bizarre contemporary diplomatic
> > > disagreements, but the Greeks fear that Macedonia retains claims to
> > > Greek territory. The Macedonians say they do not."
>
> > With all respect to BBC, it does not know what it is talking about. I
> > seriously doubt that successive Greek goverments and virtually the
> > totallity of Greeks have been "silly" for so many year. The issue
> > appears a dispute about a name but it is really not. This is only the
> > manifestation. The issue is the core identity of two groups.
>
> This too seems bizarre and silly to those outside the Balkans.
It may, I am not an outsider so I do not know. However, I do know
that their competing narratives and these narratives are the cause of
the issue. And competing narratives are at the root of all conflicts.
> > Attacks
> > against ones identity are far more all encompassing than attacks
> > against territory, If one accepts the FYROM thesis, I, a Macedonian
> > and a Greek, whose family has resided in Macedonia for centuries, am
> > no more than a "Greek occupier" of "Aegean Macedonia".
>
> That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
Apparently, but it is the very core of FYROM's own philosophy.
Accepting me as a Macedonian as well as my fellow citizens in the
province of Macedonia will be a full abrogations of FYROM's founding
myths and the main reason for refusing the current compromise
offered. In case you did not know, "Zorba the Greek" was an actual
person living in the Olympus area of Macedonia (the one described in
the Kazantzakis book, not to be confused with Quinn's portrayal in the
movie).
> > Despite
> > declarations that FYROM has no territorial aspirations, "Greater
> > Macedonia" maps are in evidence virtually everywhere in FYROM and a
> > claim on Greek history has been clearly made by renaming the Skopje
> > airport "Alexander the Great" (a stupidity beyond all proportions as
> > we know that Alexander is really "on record" on his Greek identity).
>
> The very fact that people are still quarrelling over what Alexander
> was (or was not) after 2500 years is bizarre too.
No, the bizzare issue is to even debate the issue as Alexander's
position is actually on the record. But if one believes he/she is the
descedent of the ancient Macedonians (independent of the fact that he/
she is a Slav), isn;t this a "logical" conclusion? All this just sets
the stage for a culture of loss (as virtually 95% of ancient Macedonia
is within the Greek province of Macedonia) and a culture of conflict.
> > But FYROM has been neither clever nor inoffensive. Although I do hope
> > that sanity prevails and we all reach a mutually beneficial
> > compromise, I think that we need to transverse a lot more controversy
> > and conflict until FYROM accepts that the Greek proposal is both
> > desirable and honorable.
>
> What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
> with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
Of course they do. This is the inescapable conclusion of the
uncompromising policies of the Skopje goverment. If that goverment
had cultivated a climate of understanding, friendship and cooperation,
this result would have been averted
andy...@gmail.com
> On Apr 3, 4:01 pm, andyto...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 5:08 pm, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snip)
>
> > This too seems bizarre and silly to those outside the Balkans.
>
> It may, I am not an outsider so I do not know. However, I do know
> that their competing narratives and these narratives are the cause of
> the issue. And competing narratives are at the root of all conflicts.
If those narratives have a concrete result. It is far from clear in
this case that anything will come of a name or a dispute over the
legacy of someone who died 2 millenia ago.
>
(snip)
> > That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
>
> Apparently, but it is the very core of FYROM's own philosophy.
That can change.
> Accepting me as a Macedonian as well as my fellow citizens in the
> province of Macedonia will be a full abrogations of FYROM's founding
> myths and the main reason for refusing the current compromise
> offered. In case you did not know, "Zorba the Greek" was an actual
> person living in the Olympus area of Macedonia (the one described in
> the Kazantzakis book, not to be confused with Quinn's portrayal in the
> movie).
So, I guess this begs the question: what is a Macedonian?
(snip)
>
> > The very fact that people are still quarrelling over what Alexander
> > was (or was not) after 2500 years is bizarre too.
>
> No, the bizzare issue is to even debate the issue as Alexander's
> position is actually on the record. But if one believes he/she is the
> descedent of the ancient Macedonians (independent of the fact that he/
> she is a Slav), isn;t this a "logical" conclusion? All this just sets
> the stage for a culture of loss (as virtually 95% of ancient Macedonia
> is within the Greek province of Macedonia) and a culture of conflict.
Well, I'd be willing to lay a small wager that, were we able to
teleport back in time and take some DNA from Alexander and bring it
back to the present, it would almost certainly prove that neither the
modern Hellenes nor the FYROMians are descended from him or his
people.
>
(snip)
> > What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
> > with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
>
> Of course they do. This is the inescapable conclusion of the
> uncompromising policies of the Skopje goverment. If that goverment
> had cultivated a climate of understanding, friendship and cooperation,
> this result would have been averted
They do seem to have mismanaged the whole thing. I rather suspect that
the current Macedonian gov't had its wiggle room shrunk to the point
where it either refused to back down and stayed in power or backed
down (or backed off) and got booted out by their angry constituents.
Serves them right for pandering to ultranationalism.
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:f6d1f748-05da-430e-9a4b-(snip)
> >Isn't that interesting. Everyone agrees that horrible atrocities took
> >place, but can't agree on who committed them.
>
> You see, this is the case with these neo-commies of Skopie!
> Whil me as a Greek have no problem to admit that some Greeks did nasty
> things to slavs, they say that slavs are innocent angels and that *only*
> Greeks have done nusty things to them!
Well, they would be wrong, wouldn't they?
> Now pray tell, what sane person can accept something like that, I mean
> attrocities in a a war have been done only by one of the parts?!
> That's why I say that these neo-commies are still reasoning with the old
> commie theory about great lies hoping that someone will buy them!
> Poor bastards, they don't realize that the whole world is laughing on them!
The world is rather scratching its head over the whole thing, really.
>
> >What everyone does seem
> >to agree on is that WE are the victims and THEY are the perpetrators.
>
> And that's why I say that they are still reasoning with that old commie way
> of thinking!
> Who can believe such an idiocy?!
> At least Greeks do not say that, we admit that nasty thing have been done by
> both parts, that's the way wars are!
> FYROM-ians OTOH try to pass as poooor victims, a bunch of real angels!
> Who they think can fool???!
Nobody.
(snip)
> >In this case, the Macedonians (or whatever you care to call them) look
> >rather mulish and self-destructive.
>
> And that's exactly what they are doing!
> They have a serious problem with a35% strong Albanian minority in their
> country and if they don't understand that the only real allie they can have
> in the region is Greece, I am affraid they are going to pay it hard soon...
I agree. The FYROM gov't does seem to be acting irrationally. Their
own logic may recoil on them in a nasty way when the Albanians decide
they want out.
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:0c3b57d5-d947-4882-8b64-(snip)
> >> >I think everyone is being ridiculously intransigent over things that
> >> >really shouldn't matter in the modern world.
> >> I beg to differ!
> >> Greece has shown its good will, FYROM has shown its bad will!
> >I wonder what the FYROMians would say about that ....
>
> I really don't care, I care about what the rest of the world said and the
> rest of the world recognized the effort made by Greece and waited for a
> similar movement from the other side.
> Which of course never came...
Like I said, both sides come out looking bad here. But I agree that
the FYROMian gov't made the biggest blunders.
>
> >> The whole wold has seen it and that's why the veto of Greece was rather
> >> easy
> >> in the NATO summit!
> >It does look that way,
>
> Then you shouldn't do the previous remark!
Which remark was that?
>
> >"This is probably one of the more bizarre contemporary diplomatic
> >disagreements, but the Greeks fear that Macedonia retains claims to
> >Greek territory. The Macedonians say they do not."
>
> Oh, come on!
> You are naive or of bad faith!
> What else can that swastika over Greece's flag can mean?
Some idiot puts up a defaced flag. That is extremely offensive, but
how many US flags have been burnt in Athens?
> The respect FYROM's PM paid to their national hero in front of a map with
> "Macedonia" extending till Olympus?!
That was a provocation and an attempt to get popularity by playing the
"ultranationalism" card. Very dangerous and reckless.
> What else the rename of their airport to "Alexander the Great" can mean?!
Who cares what they call it? What if they called it "Papoulias
International Airport"?
> What else the abundance of maps comprising half Greece in their school books
> can mean?!
That is a very stupid and dangerous thing too. Greece's objections to
this are 100% justified.
> And so on, and so on...
> The guys are desperate to "become something", they suffer from an immense
> inferiority complex, luck of a real identity and they are desperately trying
> to invent a glorious past!
Well, everybody does that.
>
Mitsos**
Makes sense. Why should a military superior non Greek group of people
use Greek languages? Modern Greek is actually ancient Macedonian and
predates the Macedonian languages because it was spoken by Greeks before
the ancient Macedonians moved from Asia Minor to the Balkan.
Why should the ancient Macedonians name their capital Thessaloníki?
Because they were Greeks who spoke Greek?
No because "Thessaloníki' is a Macedonian word. Very much like
Alexandros. Modern Greeks speak Macedonian and not Greek.
The Macedonian languages has its origin in a much older languages which
is Greek.
Have a nice day simpleton.
>
> (snip)
>
>>> What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
>>> with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
>> Of course they do. This is the inescapable conclusion of the
>> uncompromising policies of the Skopje goverment. If that goverment
>> had cultivated a climate of understanding, friendship and cooperation,
>> this result would have been averted
>
> They do seem to have mismanaged the whole thing. I rather suspect that
> the current Macedonian
You mean FYROM government?
ADR
>
> > It may, I am not an outsider so I do not know. However, I do know
> > that their competing narratives and these narratives are the cause of
> > the issue. And competing narratives are at the root of all conflicts.
>
> If those narratives have a concrete result. It is far from clear in
> this case that anything will come of a name or a dispute over the
> legacy of someone who died 2 millenia ago.
>
> (snip)
>
> > > That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
>
> > Apparently, but it is the very core of FYROM's own philosophy.
>
> That can change.
>
> > Accepting me as a Macedonian as well as my fellow citizens in the
> > province of Macedonia will be a full abrogations of FYROM's founding
> > myths and the main reason for refusing the current compromise
> > offered. In case you did not know, "Zorba the Greek" was an actual
> > person living in the Olympus area of Macedonia (the one described in
> > the Kazantzakis book, not to be confused with Quinn's portrayal in the
> > movie).
>
> So, I guess this begs the question: what is a Macedonian?
I would guess that anybody residing in the geographical area of
Macedonia who espouses its culture and history is a Macedonian. Thus
"culture and history" (or the common narrative) becomes the pivot
point. Using this yardstick, the FYROM common narrative is
irrediemably stupid. One can easily find out what the Macedonian
population of the late 6th and early 7th century thought of the Slavs
when they "arrived: in the province . It is well recorded in a
succession of chronicles written by bishops and other notaries of
Thessaloniki. These texts are readily available. Why would the
Macedonians of the 7th century AD being urban, literate and
Christian,reject literacy and Christianity, abandon their cities for
grass-made hovels, and also abandon the Greek language in favor of a
Slavic idiom that was not put in a written form for another 250
years??? And let's not go over tzars like Samuel who all contemporary
historians referred to as a Bulgarian but who has been christened a
Macedonian. Samuel would have been laughing aloud if he had ever
heard this as the Macedonia of his day was 200 miles to the East.
(Macedonia in the middle Ages is the area around Hadrianople). It
all seems so silly to me, so contradictory and so over the top that I
am surprised that nobody in Skopje has ever remarked of the basic
contradicitions.
> > No, the bizzare issue is to even debate the issue as Alexander's
> > position is actually on the record. But if one believes he/she is the
> > descedent of the ancient Macedonians (independent of the fact that he/
> > she is a Slav), isn;t this a "logical" conclusion? All this just sets
> > the stage for a culture of loss (as virtually 95% of ancient Macedonia
> > is within the Greek province of Macedonia) and a culture of conflict.
>
> Well, I'd be willing to lay a small wager that, were we able to
> teleport back in time and take some DNA from Alexander and bring it
> back to the present, it would almost certainly prove that neither the
> modern Hellenes nor the FYROMians are descended from him or his
> people.
I am not sure what one person's DNA can or cannot prove. Probably
nothing. One needs to compare populations. But assuming that the
genetic line of Alexander had survived (and it did not), his DNA would
have been found now in hundreds of millions. Simple genetics can show
this. The Greek population is a very mixed lot. Men and women of
various races at different time periods entered the sphere of Greek
culture and were fully assimilated. There is little doubt that from
the onset of Hellenistic times, the definition of a "Rhomaios" (or
Greek) has been mostly a cultural one, not one based on race.
Aristotle even made the case for this and Posidonius expanded.
> > Of course they do. This is the inescapable conclusion of the
> > uncompromising policies of the Skopje goverment. If that goverment
> > had cultivated a climate of understanding, friendship and cooperation,
> > this result would have been averted
>
> They do seem to have mismanaged the whole thing. I rather suspect that
> the current Macedonian gov't had its wiggle room shrunk to the point
> where it either refused to back down and stayed in power or backed
> down (or backed off) and got booted out by their angry constituents.
>
> Serves them right for pandering to ultranationalism.
Yes, they did. But there was a poltiical calculation here. They
thought that the EU and the US would have exerscided enough pressue on
Athens to force her to retreat. In that they miscalculated, as they
have done in the past.
The problem is where we are going from here. It seems that only a new
goverment in Skopje can start a constructive dialog. This right wing
group is incapable of pursuing a compromise.
rapto...@gmail.com
> > With all respect to BBC, it does not know what it is talking about. �I
> > seriously doubt that successive Greek goverments and virtually the
> > totallity of Greeks have been "silly" for so many year. �The issue
> > appears a dispute about a name but it is really not. �This is only the
> > manifestation. �The issue is the core identity of two groups.
>
> This too seems bizarre and silly to those outside the Balkans.
>
> > �Attacks
> > against ones identity are far more all encompassing than attacks
> > against territory, �If one accepts the FYROM thesis, I, a Macedonian
> > and a Greek, whose family has resided in Macedonia for centuries, am
> > no more than a "Greek occupier" of "Aegean Macedonia". �
>
> That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
i think it's a good example of logical falacy one arrives following
the fyromian claims,
it is silly and bizarre but go and explain that to fyrom...
a yes the aegean macedonia, god forbid that being called greek
province of macedonia... (funny how the geographic adjectif Aegean
is used by Fyrom only)
Aegean and thessaloniki being the attractive part.
I also found funny one reaction to veto: to riminding fyromians NOT to
enjoy their summer vacation to the greek makedonia... gone are the
good old days of "coco drachmas?" and visits without visas and
passport , shame!
Another recent (but really vintage irridentism, now being more
overt) (ok even Crvenkovski i'm affraid, i thought he was more down to
earth)
from president of fyrom:Crvenkovski talking about the posed VETO:
" [the VETO] is great disappointment and great injustice for the
citizens of Macedonia. - However, that feeling of disappointment and
injustice mustn't derail us from the basic course and from fulfilling
our ___strategic goals___ and paralyze us in this period. On the
contrary, the overall state capacity and potential of Macedonia should
be used completely, the Macedonian President said."
The maximalism continues, revealing the "strategic goals" vis-a-vis
Greece.... would be interesting...
What i find most interesting is the camouflage they do to their
offensive as being threatened by greece. Greece , many times and on
the record, has expressed
its vital interest for the stability of fyrom. (not to greece's
expense of course)
> > Despite
> > declarations that FYROM has no territorial aspirations, "Greater
> > Macedonia" maps are in evidence virtually everywhere in FYROM and a
> > claim on Greek history has been clearly made by renaming the Skopje
> > airport "Alexander the Great" (a stupidity beyond all proportions as
> > we know that Alexander is really "on record" on his Greek identity).
>
> The very fact that people are still quarrelling over what Alexander
> was (or was not) after 2500 years is bizarre too.
>
> > But FYROM has been neither clever nor inoffensive. �Although I do hope
> > that sanity prevails and we all reach a mutually beneficial
> > compromise, I think that we need to transverse a lot more controversy
> > and conflict until FYROM accepts that the Greek proposal is both
> > desirable and honorable.
>
> What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
> with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
I beg to differ, attack on identity is really silly thing to say. They
can call themselfes and believe what they want. Nobody wants or cares
to put Fyrom on psycoanalysis, nor persuade them of anything. Don't
confuse the naming issue with self identity.
One's free to believe and call himself what he wants. BUT to play on
the international arena one needs to accept consessions.
The united_macedonia aspirations is the core of the conflict
not alexander the great. that is well documented (I thing greeks who
think emotional about this issue do more harm than good). I bet not
even half of slav fyromians believe their lies (I have 1st hand
experience of that). [let alone the fact that the albanians of fyrom
address the fyrom slavs as macedonias... another falacy, what are the
albanians of fyrom?]
A final note, at last the ICT (ladino jewish community of
thessaloniki) expressed it's
outrage againt the poster, albeit after the veto. Better late than
never.
In light of the infamous poster. I can't help but make a paralelism
between Israel and fyrom. Especially after the Bucharest US-Fyrom (ok
"macedonia" for US (for now?)) pact. ( well I guess US needed to do
something after Albania joined NATO)
Is there an eschatologic justification in the bible for that too?;)
But if they think there is a paralellism between greece an palestine
they are in for a
big dissapointment.
Another point
-Bucharest I (1900's ) no macedonian state leader present....
-Bucharest II (2008) 4! macedonian state leaders:
Karamanlis,
Crvenkovski ,
Sarkozy and ....
................................... Bush: "Ich bin ein
Macedonian!" (almost) :)
[ just humour me ok?!] it's like bunnies proliferating:)
John Palamidas
> And I have served the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for several years...
LOL! And how did you end up trolling on Usenet?
andy...@gmail.com
> andyto...@gmail.com wrote:
(snip)
>
> > > �Attacks
> > > against ones identity are far more all encompassing than attacks
> > > against territory, �If one accepts the FYROM thesis, I, a Macedonian
> > > and a Greek, whose family has resided in Macedonia for centuries, am
> > > no more than a "Greek occupier" of "Aegean Macedonia". �
>
> > That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
>
> i think it's a good example of logical falacy one arrives following
> the fyromian claims,
> it is silly and bizarre but go and explain that to fyrom...
>
> a yes the aegean macedonia, god forbid that being called greek
> province of macedonia... (funny how the geographic adjectif Aegean
> is used by Fyrom only)
> Aegean and thessaloniki being the attractive part.
Well, did the Greek gov't rename its northern province "Macedonia" in
1989? If so, it looks a bit suspicious in its timing, no?
>
> I also found funny one reaction to veto: to riminding fyromians NOT to
> enjoy their summer vacation to the greek makedonia... gone are the
> good old days of "coco drachmas?" and visits without visas and
> passport , shame!
And what exactly is that kind of talk supposed to accomplish? It
sounds like you have something against the people of the FYROM
themselves. People, who incidentally, are not so very different from
you and I.
>
> Another recent (but really vintage irridentism, now being more
> overt) (ok even Crvenkovski i'm affraid, i thought he was more down to
> earth)
>
> from president of fyrom:Crvenkovski talking about the posed VETO:
> " [the VETO] is great disappointment and great injustice for the
> citizens of Macedonia. - However, that feeling of disappointment and
> injustice mustn't derail us from the basic course and from fulfilling
> our ___strategic goals___ and paralyze us in this period. On the
> contrary, the overall state capacity and potential of Macedonia should
> be used completely, the Macedonian President said."
>
> The maximalism continues, revealing the "strategic goals" vis-a-vis
> Greece.... would be interesting...
> What i find most interesting is the camouflage they do to their
> offensive as being threatened by greece. Greece , many times and on
> the record, has expressed
> its vital interest for the stability of fyrom. (not to greece's
> expense of course)
Well, politicians say some pretty stupid things. Does this surprise
you?
>
>
>
>
(snip)
>
> > What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
> > with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
>
> I beg to differ, attack on identity is really silly thing to say. They
> can call themselfes and believe what they want. Nobody wants or cares
> to put Fyrom on psycoanalysis, nor persuade them of anything. Don't
> confuse the naming issue with self identity.
> One's free to believe and call himself what he wants. BUT to play on
> the international arena one needs to accept consessions.
Of course. But if your "identity" is strong and healthy, it would not
be possible for someone in a foreign country to "attack" it, at least
not with any success. But as I said before, alleged "attacks on
identity" in the region inevitably provoke the expected Pavlovian
response. Why is this?
>
> The united_macedonia aspirations is the core of the conflict
> not alexander the great.
Well, Alexander does get talked about a lot, and the Greeks are really
upset at that airport's name.
> that is well documented (I thing greeks who
> think emotional about this issue do more harm than good).
I agree.
> I bet not
> even half of slav fyromians believe their lies (I have 1st hand
> experience of that). [let alone the fact that the albanians of fyrom
> address the fyrom slavs as macedonias... another falacy, what are the
> albanians of fyrom?]
Interesting question, and one that may come back to haunt us all.
>
> A final note, at last the ICT (ladino jewish community of
> thessaloniki) expressed it's
> outrage againt the poster, albeit after the veto. Better late than
> never.
>
> In light of the infamous poster. I can't help but make a paralelism
> between Israel and fyrom. Especially after the Bucharest US-Fyrom (ok
> "macedonia" for US (for now?)) pact. ( well I guess US needed to do
> something after Albania joined NATO)
> Is there an eschatologic justification in the bible for that too?;)
>
> But if they think there is a paralellism between greece an palestine
> they are in for a
> big dissapointment.
>
> Another point
> -Bucharest I (1900's ) no macedonian state leader present....
>
> -Bucharest II (2008) 4! macedonian state leaders:
> Karamanlis,
> Crvenkovski ,
> Sarkozy and ....
> ................................... Bush: "Ich bin ein
> Macedonian!" (almost) :)
> [ just humour me ok?!] it's like bunnies proliferating:)-
Like I said before, beware of misunderstanding the motives of the
other powers, To Bush it's all about NATO expansion, to Sarkozy it's
all about kicking Bush in the you-know-whats in order to revive the
traditional Franco-Russian alliance. I doubt anyone worries too much
about what the Greeks or Fyromians think.
ERIC
<andy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:798b7223-5d9b-42fd...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
>
> > > ?Attacks
> > > against ones identity are far more all encompassing than attacks
> > > against territory, ?If one accepts the FYROM thesis, I, a Macedonian
> > > and a Greek, whose family has resided in Macedonia for centuries, am
> > > no more than a "Greek occupier" of "Aegean Macedonia". ?
>
> > That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
>
> i think it's a good example of logical falacy one arrives following
> the fyromian claims,
> it is silly and bizarre but go and explain that to fyrom...
>
> a yes the aegean macedonia, god forbid that being called greek
> province of macedonia... (funny how the geographic adjectif Aegean
> is used by Fyrom only)
> Aegean and thessaloniki being the attractive part.
Well, did the Greek gov't rename its northern province "Macedonia" in
1989? If so, it looks a bit suspicious in its timing, no?
Absolute BS regarding a 1989 re-naming,
I have a Greek family passport issued in 1928 ---place of
domicile----Kastoria, Makedonia, Greece
That 1989 crap is 1 example of the thousands of little and big fabrications
and lies the FYROM politicos and 'intelligencia' spew out endlessly
rapto...@gmail.com
I ditto that, born macedonian corpus , animus and on paper.... long
before 1989.
this is stereotypical lie. Stalinist aproach.
THE argument against this 1989 renaming propaganda:
What was greek macedonia called prior to1989?
if you answer this, I'll eat my hat:)
Just to be 100% correct, what was renamed (i think) was the "minstry
of northern greece"
to "ministry of macedonia and Thrace", which is the same thing, just
longer. Ministries are habitually renamed worldwide. Dont know if it
was made on purpose (probably) and profetically ??? The fact is that
this region was, is and will be macedonia because it's part of the
well documented geographic, traditional, historical macedonia PERIOD.
And it's the greek macedonia not the aegean. it belongs to no such
thing as the aegean sea, which has no legal personality so as to
contain a region, let alone the fact aegean sea borders Turkey as
well.
I saw a fyromian official saying that "republic" is a sufficient
qualifier to distinguish fyrom from greek macedonia... ELEOS! MERCY!
PITIE! only marginaly better qualifier are the "well placed"
chronologically laughable Nimetz parentheses :
(Skopje)
Also this naming dispute, it's not only analogous to the UK entering
EU (EEC)
as such (and not as Great Britain) but also Finland, which locals
refer to as Suomi, because of a dispute with Russia. And in both cases
the prevaling party was the larger or the membership giving party.
Greece is both.
What's more : It's not so "humiliating" after all, if you ask britons
at least.
ADR
> Well, did the Greek gov't rename its northern province "Macedonia" in
> 1989? If so, it looks a bit suspicious in its timing, no?
I am not sure why you are repeating this outrageous and easily
disproven lie. The province of Macedonia was indeed formed in 1912
(following the Balkan wars). It remained named thus ever since. You
are only referring to the name of the regional ministry (the Ministry
of Northern Greece). The only reason that the Ministry had that name
is that Northern Macedonia consists of two provinces, those of
Macedonia and Thrace. One can obtain any Greek maps published prior
to 1989 to see the name of the provinces.
>
> Of course. But if your "identity" is strong and healthy, it would not
> be possible for someone in a foreign country to "attack" it, at least
> not with any success. But as I said before, alleged "attacks on
> identity" in the region inevitably provoke the expected Pavlovian
> response. Why is this?
I fail to see your point. The issue is not if the Greeks of Macedonia
have a healthy Macedonian identity. They do. What you have seen
recently is in fact an expression of this identity. Conflicting
historical narratives are the core of any conflict. If FYROM manages
to establsh their "Macedonian" identity, further claims will follow
and the conflict will intensify simply because they will have assumed
that their "narrative", however bizzare, is gaining international
recognition. Since an essential element of this narrative is that the
"Greeks occupy Aegean Macedonia" and that they themselves are the
"descendents of the ancient Macedonians" what do you think is the
logical consequence of this? It is quite instructive that one element
that really played against them was the renaming of the Skopje
airport as "Alexander the Great Airport". For the first time, this
provided a clue to those remote from the conflict to understand a
little better the essense of the dispute. It was reported that the US
diplomats tried to convince the Skopje authorities to change the
airport name in order to help their cause, but they refused. The
Skopje leadership pushed the renaming in the belief that the US would
have pressured Athens successfully and an invitation to join NATO
would have marked a victory not only against Greece but also a
recognition of their historical claims.
> > The united_macedonia aspirations is the core of the conflict
> > not alexander the great.
>
> Well, Alexander does get talked about a lot, and the Greeks are really
> upset at that airport's name.
What does this imply to you?
rapto...@gmail.com
andyto...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well, did the Greek gov't rename its northern province "Macedonia" in
> 1989? If so, it looks a bit suspicious in its timing, no?
>
see previous reply for that:
short: what was greek macedonia named before 1989?????
> >
> > I also found funny one reaction to veto: to riminding fyromians NOT to
> > enjoy their summer vacation to the greek makedonia... gone are the
> > good old days of "coco drachmas?" and visits without visas and
> > passport , shame!
>
> And what exactly is that kind of talk supposed to accomplish? It
> sounds like you have something against the people of the FYROM
> themselves. People, who incidentally, are not so very different from
> you and I.
o please, sounds really corny your remark,
missing the point i made 100%, I was being reminiscent of the good old
days
with irony ok, but still preferable to the status quo, it's a shame
indeed
> > The maximalism continues, revealing the "strategic goals" vis-a-vis
> > Greece.... would be interesting...
> > What i find most interesting is the camouflage they do to their
> > offensive as being threatened by greece. Greece , many times and on
> > the record, has expressed
> > its vital interest for the stability of fyrom. (not to greece's
> > expense of course)
>
> Well, politicians say some pretty stupid things. Does this surprise
> you?
>
you generalise with predguice here. It doen't surpise me they are
offensive,
it surprises me president speaking about strategic goals , a prime
minister
making threats, and even annonymous terrorism threats from fyromians
i saw on the net. (ok that's far fetched hopefully).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> (snip)
>
> >
> > > What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
> > > with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
> >
> > I beg to differ, attack on identity is really silly thing to say. They
> > can call themselfes and believe what they want. Nobody wants or cares
> > to put Fyrom on psycoanalysis, nor persuade them of anything. Don't
> > confuse the naming issue with self identity.
> > One's free to believe and call himself what he wants. BUT to play on
> > the international arena one needs to accept consessions.
>
> Of course. But if your "identity" is strong and healthy, it would not
> be possible for someone in a foreign country to "attack" it, at least
> not with any success. But as I said before, alleged "attacks on
> identity" in the region inevitably provoke the expected Pavlovian
> response. Why is this?
to return the critisism: do you think us as pavlovian dogs? Maybe
false/stolen
identities deserve what is in store for them? not pavlovian but
darwinian.
seriously though now I dont know of any war against a weak or
unhealthy
identity. in the region or otherwise. The moral of fyrom seems
brilliant to me.
and should better be after they dessociate it from the unique/united
macedonia dream.
>
> > that is well documented (I thing greeks who
> > think emotional about this issue do more harm than good).
>
> I agree.
>
u agree to both assertions?
> > I bet not
> > even half of slav fyromians believe their lies (I have 1st hand
> > experience of that). [let alone the fact that the albanians of fyrom
> > address the fyrom slavs as macedonias... another falacy, what are the
> > albanians of fyrom?]
>
> Interesting question, and one that may come back to haunt us all.
They sure dont' refer to themselfs as macedonians, though they
don't invest in solving theis countries naming dispute. Seems
telling, but i don't think they are/can be so opportunistic as to
haunt anything.
They probably don't want the naming dispute resolved. but maybe for
other reasons...
well come now, Bush is only thinking about his herritage? and NATO
expansion? bush and his media advisers and generals glee by the fact
of having 100 "invincible" "macedonians" in Iraq and afganistan, *even
almost on paper*. That's all in a name. and a vaguely potent one to
ignorant people.
Nato is fast becoming irrelevent, it's who's out more important than
the benefit's of who's in.
Bush defines it as what it is for and points to intangible notions of
stability and democracy (!) , putin as what it is against and points
to himself.
But who is really against russia now, and for what ? gas and oil
control and prices???
great heritage!
Sarkozy sure has it's reasons, maybe turkey being the final
target...
Drexl Spivey
> ? "pavel" <pavelmakedon...@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:ae30cc34-ce55-45a3...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >The billbords are property of the Cultural-Informative Centre -
> >Skopje, and
> >they are an advertisement of the exhibition of Atanas Botev, that is
> >held in
> >that Centre from April 3rd to May 3rd. Atanas Botev explained himself,
> >that
> >the swastika was forever considered by him and his family as a sign
> >for health
> >and prosperity, so that it is strange for him the reaction of the
> >Greek
> >government. He himself has his roots in Solun (Thessaloniki). There
> >his
> >family has been in help to the German liberators in the WW II, and
> >because of that
> >was forced to emigrate after the war. A CULTURAL EVENT cannot be a
> >reason
> >for worsening of the relations between two neighbouring countries.
> >That
> >would be the reply by the Macedonian External Affairs Ministry to the
> >Greek note for taking away the billbords. The billbords would remain
> >until
> >the end of the exhibition of Mr Atanas Botev.
>
> You are so sad!!!
> "German liberators in the WW II"????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> LOL LOL LOL
> You filthy NAZI!
> Do you really believe that the desecration of Greece's ethnic symbol can be
> "excused" as artistic poetry and the swastika in the place of the cross
> embellished as a symbol of..."luck"?!!
> It is obvious that the good old commie manners are not forgotten in FYROM!
> Boy, you've made it again; the whole world can see now who the intransigent
> and the extremist are!
> Thank you for shooting your own foot;-)
Yup we don't have put any serious effort in dealing with them. They
are their own worst enemy.
Very entertaining to see them being Nazi sympathizers, knowing well
how the Nazis dealt with bolsheviks
andy...@gmail.com
> <andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
Well, if I'm wrong I'm wrong ....
andy...@gmail.com
> ERIC wrote:
> > <andyto...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Like I said, if I am wrong I am wrong. It doesn't kill me to admit
it.
>
> THE argument against this 1989 renaming propaganda:
> What was greek macedonia called prior to1989?
> if you answer this, I'll eat my hat:)
>
> Just to be 100% correct, what was renamed (i think) was the "minstry
> of northern greece"
> to "ministry of macedonia and Thrace", which is the same thing, just
> longer. Ministries are habitually renamed worldwide. Dont know if it
> was made on purpose (probably) and profetically ???
The timing is very convenient, no?
> The fact is that
> this region was, is and will be macedonia because it's part of the
> well documented geographic, traditional, historical macedonia PERIOD.
Is it? Well, look at these maps.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_byzantine_empires.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/roman_empire_395.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ottoman_empire_1801.jpg
http://packet.node.to/classics/map2g.jpg
"Macedonia" does have a habit of moving around, doesn't it?
>
> And it's the greek macedonia not the aegean. it belongs to no such
> thing as the aegean sea, which has no legal personality so as to
> contain a region, let alone the fact aegean sea borders Turkey as
> well.
Well, I see the difference, but what I don't understand is the anger
it provokes.
>
> I saw a fyromian official saying that "republic" is a sufficient
> qualifier to distinguish fyrom from greek macedonia... ELEOS! MERCY!
> PITIE! only marginaly better qualifier are the "well placed"
> chronologically laughable Nimetz parentheses :
> (Skopje)
>
> Also this naming dispute, it's not only analogous to the UK entering
> EU (EEC)
> as such (and not as Great Britain)
Once again, France's pettiness and desire to humiliate the British is
not a precedent I would want applied to me. Just because France
behaved like a spoiled baby doesnt mean I have to.
> but also Finland, which locals
> refer to as Suomi, because of a dispute with Russia.
What dispute is this?
> And in both cases
> the prevaling party was the larger or the membership giving party.
> Greece is both.
> What's more : It's not so "humiliating" after all, if you ask britons
> at least.-
I would have thought that it was self-humiliating to the French.
Behaving like that doesn't make one look very good. Remember all that
foolishness of "Liberty fries" and pouring excellent French wine down
the drain in the US when France used its veto on the Iraq war? Who
looked stupid then?
andy...@gmail.com
(snip stuff already dealt with)
>
>
> > Of course. But if your "identity" is strong and healthy, it would not
> > be possible for someone in a foreign country to "attack" it, at least
> > not with any success. But as I said before, alleged "attacks on
> > identity" in the region inevitably provoke the expected Pavlovian
> > response. Why is this?
>
> I fail to see your point. The issue is not if the Greeks of Macedonia
> have a healthy Macedonian identity. They do.
It doesn't look that way to me. People with healthy identities don't
lose their tempers so easily over it. For instance, I am heterosexual.
I know this. If someone calls me a homosexual I know that it is
untrue, so why do I care? It's the people with some sort of inner
doubt or conflict who get angry about it.
> What you have seen
> recently is in fact an expression of this identity.
Identity expressed in a typically Balkan way: I use my "itentity" as a
weapon against yours.
> Conflicting
> historical narratives are the core of any conflict. If FYROM manages
> to establsh their "Macedonian" identity, further claims will follow
Why do you say that?
> and the conflict will intensify simply because they will have assumed
> that their "narrative", however bizzare, is gaining international
> recognition. Since an essential element of this narrative is that the
> "Greeks occupy Aegean Macedonia" and that they themselves are the
> "descendents of the ancient Macedonians" what do you think is the
> logical consequence of this?
Why don't we wait until we get to that point before we start to lose
our heads? Plenty of countries have competing territorial claims, and
there are mechanisms in place to deal with them.
> It is quite instructive that one element
> that really played against them was the renaming of the Skopje
> airport as "Alexander the Great Airport". For the first time, this
> provided a clue to those remote from the conflict to understand a
> little better the essense of the dispute.
We can note it, track it, study it. I doubt anyone will ever
understand it. What if Quito, Ecuador renamed its airport "David ben
Gurion International Airport", or if Tokyo called its airport "Julius
Caesar International Airport"? Would the Israelis or Italians have a
hissy fit? I seriously doubt their reaction would be anything more
than slight puzzlement, if that.
> It was reported that the US
> diplomats tried to convince the Skopje authorities to change the
> airport name in order to help their cause, but they refused. The
> Skopje leadership pushed the renaming in the belief that the US would
> have pressured Athens successfully and an invitation to join NATO
> would have marked a victory not only against Greece but also a
> recognition of their historical claims.
There's that h-word again. Conflicting narratives if you like. If your
"history" leads you to bloodshed, then you should forget about it.
>
> > > The united_macedonia aspirations is the core of the conflict
> > > not alexander the great.
>
> > Well, Alexander does get talked about a lot, and the Greeks are really
> > upset at that airport's name.
>
> What does this imply to you?
This implies that memories are 2300 years too long.
andy...@gmail.com
(snip)
>
> > > I also found funny one reaction to veto: to riminding fyromians NOT to
> > > enjoy their summer vacation to the greek makedonia... gone are the
> > > good old days of "coco drachmas?" and visits without visas and
> > > passport , shame!
>
> > And what exactly is that kind of talk supposed to accomplish? It
> > sounds like you have something against the people of the FYROM
> > themselves. People, who incidentally, are not so very different from
> > you and I.
>
> o please, sounds really corny your remark,
I don't care if it's corny or not. Considering the region we're
dealing with here, ethnic slurs should be excluded completely from any
sane dialogue.
> missing the point i made 100%, I was being reminiscent of the good old
> days
> with irony ok, but still preferable to the status quo, it's a shame
> indeed
>
(snip)
>
> > Well, politicians say some pretty stupid things. Does this surprise
> > you?
>
> you generalise with predguice here. It doen't surpise me they are
> offensive,
> it surprises me president speaking about strategic goals , a prime
> minister
> making threats, and even annonymous terrorism threats from fyromians
> i saw on the net. (ok that's far fetched hopefully).
If they are anonymous, how do you know it's from a Fyromian and not a
Bolivian just trying to be a good troll?
>
>
>(snip)
>
> > Of course. But if your "identity" is strong and healthy, it would not
> > be possible for someone in a foreign country to "attack" it, at least
> > not with any success. But as I said before, alleged "attacks on
> > identity" in the region inevitably provoke the expected Pavlovian
> > response. Why is this?
>
> to return the critisism: do you think us as pavlovian dogs?
Of course not
> Maybe
> false/stolen
> identities deserve what is in store for them? not pavlovian but
> darwinian.
> seriously though now I dont know of any war against a weak or
> unhealthy
> identity. in the region or otherwise. The moral of fyrom seems
> brilliant to me.
> and should better be after they dessociate it from the unique/united
> macedonia dream.
We can only hope.
>
>
> > > I bet not
> > > even half of slav fyromians believe their lies (I have 1st hand
> > > experience of that). [let alone the fact that the albanians of fyrom
> > > address the fyrom slavs as macedonias... another falacy, what are the
> > > albanians of fyrom?]
>
> > Interesting question, and one that may come back to haunt us all.
>
> They sure dont' refer to themselfs as macedonians, though they
> don't invest in solving theis countries naming dispute. Seems
> telling, but i don't think they are/can be so opportunistic as to
> haunt anything.
> They probably don't want the naming dispute resolved. but maybe for
> other reasons...
Such as?
(snip)
> > Like I said before, beware of misunderstanding the motives of the
> > other powers, To Bush it's all about NATO expansion, to Sarkozy it's
> > all about kicking Bush in the you-know-whats in order to revive the
> > traditional Franco-Russian alliance. I doubt anyone worries too much
> > about what the Greeks or Fyromians think.
>
> well come now, Bush is only thinking about his herritage? and NATO
> expansion? bush and his media advisers and generals glee by the fact
> of having 100 "invincible" "macedonians" in Iraq and afganistan, *even
> almost on paper*. That's all in a name. and a vaguely potent one to
> ignorant people.
That's exactly my point.
>
> Nato is fast becoming irrelevent, it's who's out more important than
> the benefit's of who's in.
> Bush defines it as what it is for and points to intangible notions of
> stability and democracy (!) , putin as what it is against and points
> to himself.
> But who is really against russia now, and for what ? gas and oil
> control and prices???
> great heritage!
International diplomacy is a disgusting game, full of lies, deceit and
hidden motives. But's it's a lot less disgusting than the alternative,
which is war.
gogu
news:04faa6ae-886d-4806...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Their old commie mentality is driving them through dangerous paths...
Nashton
>
> I agree. But does the passage of 50 years somehow make a treaty
> sensible or morally justifiable? I can think of a few immoral and/or
> stupid treaties that are more than 50 years old, and I bet you can
> too.
Not only do countries abide by treaties that were signed many
generations ago, but hundreds of years ago.
Look no further than the USA and Canada and the treaties they signed
with the First nations.
We're talking 300 year-old treaties by which both sides abide.
>
>> Only revizionists use this kind of reasoning!
>
> Sticks and stones may break my bones .... ;-)
Sticks and stones are all you'll have left, pseudo-Macedonian.
Nashton
> On Apr 3, 5:08 pm, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> It does look that way, but be careful of mistaking political
>>> expediency with support for Greece's position. France in particular
>>> wants to cozy up to Russia, and Russia is wary of NATO's growing
>>> strength. As well, the world might think that both parties are being a
>>> bit silly. The BBC describes it thus:
>>> "This is probably one of the more bizarre contemporary diplomatic
>>> disagreements, but the Greeks fear that Macedonia retains claims to
>>> Greek territory. The Macedonians say they do not."
>> With all respect to BBC, it does not know what it is talking about. I
>> seriously doubt that successive Greek goverments and virtually the
>> totallity of Greeks have been "silly" for so many year. The issue
>> appears a dispute about a name but it is really not. This is only the
>> manifestation. The issue is the core identity of two groups.
>
> This too seems bizarre and silly to those outside the Balkans.
We don't act based on some arbitrary definition of silliness from you or
anyone else.
>
>> Attacks
>> against ones identity are far more all encompassing than attacks
>> against territory, If one accepts the FYROM thesis, I, a Macedonian
>> and a Greek, whose family has resided in Macedonia for centuries, am
>> no more than a "Greek occupier" of "Aegean Macedonia".
>
> That is a bizarre and silly thing to call you, no?
It's historically inaccurate. Whether it appears silly to you is irrelevant.
>
>> Despite
>> declarations that FYROM has no territorial aspirations, "Greater
>> Macedonia" maps are in evidence virtually everywhere in FYROM and a
>> claim on Greek history has been clearly made by renaming the Skopje
>> airport "Alexander the Great" (a stupidity beyond all proportions as
>> we know that Alexander is really "on record" on his Greek identity).
>
> The very fact that people are still quarrelling over what Alexander
> was (or was not) after 2500 years is bizarre too.
Exactly. Whether or not Alexander was Greek has been well established.
>
>> But FYROM has been neither clever nor inoffensive. Although I do hope
>> that sanity prevails and we all reach a mutually beneficial
>> compromise, I think that we need to transverse a lot more controversy
>> and conflict until FYROM accepts that the Greek proposal is both
>> desirable and honorable.
>
> What if they see it as an attack on their identity? That's the problem
> with the region: too many conflicting "identities".
Welcome to my bozo-bin.
>
Nashton
<snip>
Listen tool, because I'm not inclined to repeat this again.
This *not* about who is or isn't a descendant of Alex the great. This is
about identity and usurping of cultures.
ADR has been very patient with you, attempting to explain something that
is apparently beyond your capacity for understanding.
In the end, justice does prevail and FYROM was and will be shut out of
international organizations, no matter how its intellectuals will repeat
ad nauseam that they're all distant nieces and nephews of Alex the G.
I can smell another TRNC...
gogu
>On Apr 4, 2:34 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> You see, this is the case with these neo-commies of Skopie!
>> Whil me as a Greek have no problem to admit that some Greeks did nasty
>> things to slavs, they say that slavs are innocent angels and that *only*
>> Greeks have done nusty things to them!
>Well, they would be wrong, wouldn't they?
Of course they would but as you can see by the answers of some FYROM-ian
posters in here they think they are not...
>> Now pray tell, what sane person can accept something like that, I mean
>> attrocities in a a war have been done only by one of the parts?!
>> That's why I say that these neo-commies are still reasoning with the old
>> commie theory about great lies hoping that someone will buy them!
>> Poor bastards, they don't realize that the whole world is laughing on
>> them!
>The world is rather scratching its head over the whole thing, really.
I don't really think so...
What sane person would believe that only one part is committing atrocities
in a war?!
It's obvious to anyone that whoever claims so is stupid and an old-fashion
propagandist...
>> FYROM-ians OTOH try to pass as poooor victims, a bunch of real angels!
>> Who they think can fool???!
>Nobody.
Exactly!
>> And that's exactly what they are doing!
>> They have a serious problem with a35% strong Albanian minority in their
>> country and if they don't understand that the only real allie they can
>> have
>> in the region is Greece, I am affraid they are going to pay it hard
>> soon...
>I agree. The FYROM gov't does seem to be acting irrationally. Their
>own logic may recoil on them in a nasty way when the Albanians decide
>they want out.
They are trapped in their extremist propaganda and in the old commie
stereotypes....
They see Greeks as their "natural" enemies while nobody in Europe discuss in
such terms...
Greece is the only country in the region that has no territorial claims over
any of its neighbors!
Albanians OTOH do have territorial claims over FYROM...
And that's the way FYROM will be repaid for having territorial claims on
Greece!
And you know something funny?!
When the Albanians will start their separatist fight, *ONLY* Greece will
come and help FYROM!
gogu
news:f80119f5-56a6-4803...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> So, I guess this begs the question: what is a Macedonian?
>I would guess that anybody residing in the geographical area of
>Macedonia who espouses its culture and history is a Macedonian. Thus
>"culture and history" (or the common narrative) becomes the pivot
>point. Using this yardstick, the FYROM common narrative is
>irrediemably stupid. One can easily find out what the Macedonian
>population of the late 6th and early 7th century thought of the Slavs
>when they "arrived: in the province . It is well recorded in a
>succession of chronicles written by bishops and other notaries of
>Thessaloniki. These texts are readily available. Why would the
>Macedonians of the 7th century AD being urban, literate and
>Christian,reject literacy and Christianity, abandon their cities for
>grass-made hovels, and also abandon the Greek language in favor of a
>Slavic idiom that was not put in a written form for another 250
>years??? And let's not go over tzars like Samuel who all contemporary
>historians referred to as a Bulgarian but who has been christened a
>Macedonian. Samuel would have been laughing aloud if he had ever
>heard this as the Macedonia of his day was 200 miles to the East.
>(Macedonia in the middle Ages is the area around Hadrianople). It
>all seems so silly to me, so contradictory and so over the top that I
>am surprised that nobody in Skopje has ever remarked of the basic
>contradicitions.
Of course they did but they can't accept it publicly!
Because that would pulverize the whole construction of their (fake) national
identity as it was created in the last 150-200 years!
That would provoke an enormous impact on the FYROM-ian society, it would
provoke and identify crisis to the whole population and would result to a
luck of "motivation" for an entire people!
And little, poor societies with extremist leadership do need such
"motivation" for having a cause to exist!
How sad...
gogu
>> I really don't care, I care about what the rest of the world said and the
>> rest of the world recognized the effort made by Greece and waited for a
>> similar movement from the other side.
>> Which of course never came...
>Like I said, both sides come out looking bad here. But I agree that
>the FYROMian gov't made the biggest blunders.
I strongly disagree!
Greece's last mistake was the embargo at the beginning of the 90's and
that's an ooold story!
Since then Greece went by book, it never did or said something against
FYROM, it always helped FYROM in its various problems (Greece has also
donated military material to FYROM!) and so on!
Greece has always supported the adherence of FYROM to the NATO and the EU,
of course *after* the solution of the name problem!
And lastly, Greece is the number one investor in FYROM and Greek businessmen
are giving food to 35% of the FYROM-ian population!
Now pray tell where Greece has been un-supporting to FYROM in, say, the last
10 years?!
>> >> The whole wold has seen it and that's why the veto of Greece was
>> >> rather
>> >> easy
>> >> in the NATO summit!
>> >It does look that way,
>> Then you shouldn't do the previous remark!
>Which remark was that?
"Like I said, both sides come out looking bad".
"I think everyone is being ridiculously intransigent over things that
really shouldn't matter in the modern world".
>> Oh, come on!
>> You are naive or of bad faith!
>> What else can that swastika over Greece's flag can mean?
>Some idiot puts up a defaced flag. That is extremely offensive, but
>how many US flags have been burnt in Athens?
How many *Americans* has put in fire *American* flags??????!!!!!!
One is "offensive" or "freedom of expression" and another is "provoking"!
And there is another aspect: if the FYROM-ian government would really
believe its excuse to Greece for this sad fact, it would eliminate these
offensive posters! But they didn't do it! So it's clear to everyone to
understand that:
1) It was the official party line which was dictating the whole provocation!
2) FYROM-ians lie when they say they have no territorial claims over Greece
or other things! They are jsut "good" neo-commies applying old commie
propaganda methods!
>> The respect FYROM's PM paid to their national hero in front of a map with
>> "Macedonia" extending till Olympus?!
>That was a provocation and an attempt to get popularity by playing the
>"ultranationalism" card. Very dangerous and reckless.
QED!
>> What else the rename of their airport to "Alexander the Great" can mean?!
>Who cares what they call it? What if they called it "Papoulias
>International Airport"?
Oh, come on!
It was not a "naive" movement and you know that!
>> What else the abundance of maps comprising half Greece in their school
>> books
>> can mean?!
>That is a very stupid and dangerous thing too. Greece's objections to
>this are 100% justified.
So there *are* PROOF* that FYROM is feeding territorial aspirations against
Greece!
Case closed, FYROM should be held responsible, should be forced by the UN
and every country which says it fight for the right to eliminate such books
and also eliminate some remarks from its constitution which lead to the same
ideas! Did you know for instance that in their constitution it is talked
about the Aegean Macedonia and Macedonia of Pirin (Bulgaria) naming the
FYROM-ians living there (and the respective territories) "enslaved" or under
occupation Macedonians???
All this is making clear for every good faith person that FYROM *do* has
territorial claims over Greece and it's FYROM that should be forced to
behave like a modern, civilized country.
Or else;-)
>> And so on, and so on...
>> The guys are desperate to "become something", they suffer from an immense
>> inferiority complex, luck of a real identity and they are desperately
>> trying
>> to invent a glorious past!
>Well, everybody does that.
Well, certainly not Greece in this case!
Greece has by no means any inferiority complex against this little, poor and
corrupted nation!
gogu
news:0a23465e-0a22-4c32...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>andyto...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Well, did the Greek gov't rename its northern province "Macedonia" in
>> 1989? If so, it looks a bit suspicious in its timing, no?
>see previous reply for that:
>short: what was greek macedonia named before 1989?????
I was raised in Macedonia and I remember that for the first grade (that was
around 1968) we were calling it "Macedonia", in every map it was named
"Macedonia", when I was in my birth town (Athens) and asked from where I was
I was answering "from Macedonia" and so on!
What is not clear to you?!
I suppose you are victim of the half truths you were fed and you are
referring to the name of the "Ministry of Macedonia" which for many years
was called "Ministry of Northern Greece"!
But what has this to do with how we were called or how we were calling the
region?!
Anywa please enlighten us, how we were calling Macedonia before 1989!
Your obtuse answer.
Well, we all know that in your desperate attempts to hold in feet your lies
you are looking for..."proof";-)
Have a nice day!
gogu
news:798b7223-5d9b-42fd...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>On Apr 5, 6:11 am, raptori...@gmail.com wrote:
>Well, did the Greek gov't rename its northern province "Macedonia" in
>1989? If so, it looks a bit suspicious in its timing, no?
Nope!
I was born in 1962, lived in Macedonia from 3 to 12 and then again from 1985
onwards.
As far as I remember myself the region was called "Macedonia"!
I wonder why you buy this silly, FYROM-ian propaganda?!
>And what exactly is that kind of talk supposed to accomplish? It
>sounds like you have something against the people of the FYROM
>themselves.
Suuuure, just listen to what FYROM-ians are saying/thinking about Greeks and
then come and talk to me;-)
>Well, politicians say some pretty stupid things. Does this surprise
>you?
Yes!
Because coming to some FYROM-ian politicians, saying stupid things is
becoming a permanent habit ;-)
>> The united_macedonia aspirations is the core of the conflict
>> not alexander the great.
>Well, Alexander does get talked about a lot, and the Greeks are really
>upset at that airport's name.
What's so difficult to understand?!
Can't you get the fact that this is "hiding" a historical/territorial/etc
claim?!
"Alexander is ours=we are the real Macedonians=you are the occupiers=give us
the whole Macedonia"!
I really can't believe how such naive people like you exist!
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:c0058896-c610-4e76...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Apr 4, 2:34 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
> >> You see, this is the case with these neo-commies of Skopie!
> >> Whil me as a Greek have no problem to admit that some Greeks did nasty
> >> things to slavs, they say that slavs are innocent angels and that *only*
> >> Greeks have done nusty things to them!
> >Well, they would be wrong, wouldn't they?
>
> Of course they would but as you can see by the answers of some FYROM-ian
> posters in here they think they are not...
There's one way to sort it all out, no?
>
> >> Now pray tell, what sane person can accept something like that, I mean
> >> attrocities in a a war have been done only by one of the parts?!
> >> That's why I say that these neo-commies are still reasoning with the old
> >> commie theory about great lies hoping that someone will buy them!
> >> Poor bastards, they don't realize that the whole world is laughing on
> >> them!
> >The world is rather scratching its head over the whole thing, really.
>
> I don't really think so...
> What sane person would believe that only one part is committing atrocities
> in a war?!
Nobody.
> It's obvious to anyone that whoever claims so is stupid and an old-fashion
> propagandist...
I agree.
>
> >> FYROM-ians OTOH try to pass as poooor victims, a bunch of real angels!
> >> Who they think can fool???!
> >Nobody.
>
> Exactly!
>
> >> And that's exactly what they are doing!
> >> They have a serious problem with a35% strong Albanian minority in their
> >> country and if they don't understand that the only real allie they can
> >> have
> >> in the region is Greece, I am affraid they are going to pay it hard
> >> soon...
> >I agree. The FYROM gov't does seem to be acting irrationally. Their
> >own logic may recoil on them in a nasty way when the Albanians decide
> >they want out.
>
> They are trapped in their extremist propaganda and in the old commie
> stereotypes....
> They see Greeks as their "natural" enemies while nobody in Europe discuss in
> such terms...
I'm afraid that there's more than enough of that thinking going around
for everyone. The ultranationalist cannot envision his country; he
needs "traditional enemies" to blame all the ills of his country on.
The ultranationalist believes in one form or another that his nation
is the best one their is (whatever that is supposed to mean). Then he
looks around and is subconsciously apalled with all the imperfections
in himself and his fellow-countrymen. Whether or not Greeks, Serbs,
Albanians or Turks are "the chosen people", they are still people.
People. And people are positively riddled with imperfections.
Therefore a scapegoat must be found for all the drunks, prostitutes,
thieves, criminals and corrupt, venal politicians in my own country,
and the "traditional enemy" fits that bill perfectly. It's all his
fault.
Besides, part of the ultranationalist's national myth is the long
series of military victories over the Other, and the long series of
defeats at the Other's hands are put down to treachery and betrayal by
putative allies. People in southeastern Europe positively love to go
on and on over how many "betrayals" they have had to suffer, don't
they? If I start a war and win it, I am a "great conqueror". If the
Other does it, he is an agressor, oppressor and genocidist.
Sound familiar?
> Greece is the only country in the region that has no territorial claims over
> any of its neighbors!
A depressing thought, really.
> Albanians OTOH do have territorial claims over FYROM...
> And that's the way FYROM will be repaid for having territorial claims on
> Greece!
> And you know something funny?!
> When the Albanians will start their separatist fight, *ONLY* Greece will
> come and help FYROM!
Sounds like a spreading conflict to me ....
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:4422003f-8ccc-4e28...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> I really don't care, I care about what the rest of the world said and the
> >> rest of the world recognized the effort made by Greece and waited for a
> >> similar movement from the other side.
> >> Which of course never came...
> >Like I said, both sides come out looking bad here. But I agree that
> >the FYROMian gov't made the biggest blunders.
>
> I strongly disagree!
> Greece's last mistake was the embargo at the beginning of the 90's and
> that's an ooold story!
> Since then Greece went by book, it never did or said something against
> FYROM, it always helped FYROM in its various problems (Greece has also
> donated military material to FYROM!) and so on!
> Greece has always supported the adherence of FYROM to the NATO and the EU,
> of course *after* the solution of the name problem!
> And lastly, Greece is the number one investor in FYROM and Greek businessmen
> are giving food to 35% of the FYROM-ian population!
> Now pray tell where Greece has been un-supporting to FYROM in, say, the last
> 10 years?!
What I was saying is that the world sees 2 countries arguing over
"Macedonia" and Alexander the Great, and it all looks rather silly.
>
> >> >> The whole wold has seen it and that's why the veto of Greece was
> >> >> rather
> >> >> easy
> >> >> in the NATO summit!
> >> >It does look that way,
> >> Then you shouldn't do the previous remark!
> >Which remark was that?
>
> "Like I said, both sides come out looking bad".
>
> "I think everyone is being ridiculously intransigent over things that
> really shouldn't matter in the modern world".
>
> >> Oh, come on!
> >> You are naive or of bad faith!
> >> What else can that swastika over Greece's flag can mean?
> >Some idiot puts up a defaced flag. That is extremely offensive, but
> >how many US flags have been burnt in Athens?
>
> How many *Americans* has put in fire *American* flags??????!!!!!!
> One is "offensive" or "freedom of expression" and another is "provoking"!
I fail to see the difference. A defaced flag is a defaced flag, and if
you're going to deface someone else's flag, your outrage rings a
little hollow when someone defaces yours.
> And there is another aspect: if the FYROM-ian government would really
> believe its excuse to Greece for this sad fact, it would eliminate these
> offensive posters!
I agree. Any civilized country would refuse to tolerate the open
desecration of another country's symbols, especially with Nazi
imagery.
> But they didn't do it! So it's clear to everyone to
> understand that:
> 1) It was the official party line which was dictating the whole provocation!
Maybe. Or maybe the FYROM gov't is being held hostage by hysterical
ultranationalists.
> 2) FYROM-ians lie when they say they have no territorial claims over Greece
> or other things!
Either that or they don't know how to control the ultranationalist
element in their society.
>They are jsut "good" neo-commies applying old commie
> propaganda methods!
That's not very nice. Plenty of Greeks wanted to go communist at the
same time Yugoslavia did, after all.
>
> >> The respect FYROM's PM paid to their national hero in front of a map with
> >> "Macedonia" extending till Olympus?!
> >That was a provocation and an attempt to get popularity by playing the
> >"ultranationalism" card. Very dangerous and reckless.
>
> QED!
>
> >> What else the rename of their airport to "Alexander the Great" can mean?!
> >Who cares what they call it? What if they called it "Papoulias
> >International Airport"?
>
> Oh, come on!
> It was not a "naive" movement and you know that!
Stupid, yes. Naive, no. But who cares?
>
> >> What else the abundance of maps comprising half Greece in their school
> >> books
> >> can mean?!
> >That is a very stupid and dangerous thing too. Greece's objections to
> >this are 100% justified.
>
> So there *are* PROOF* that FYROM is feeding territorial aspirations against
> Greece!
> Case closed, FYROM should be held responsible, should be forced by the UN
> and every country which says it fight for the right to eliminate such books
> and also eliminate some remarks from its constitution which lead to the same
> ideas!
I agree heartily.
> Did you know for instance that in their constitution it is talked
> about the Aegean Macedonia and Macedonia of Pirin (Bulgaria) naming the
> FYROM-ians living there (and the respective territories) "enslaved" or under
> occupation Macedonians???
A little rewriting may be in order here.
> All this is making clear for every good faith person that FYROM *do* has
> territorial claims over Greece and it's FYROM that should be forced to
> behave like a modern, civilized country.
> Or else;-)
>
> >> And so on, and so on...
> >> The guys are desperate to "become something", they suffer from an immense
> >> inferiority complex, luck of a real identity and they are desperately
> >> trying
> >> to invent a glorious past!
> >Well, everybody does that.
>
> Well, certainly not Greece in this case!
I think every country, including Greece, does some "creative
interpretation" of history, usually to cast themselves in a good
light. It's harmless enough.
> Greece has by no means any inferiority complex against this little, poor and
> corrupted nation!
I wouldn't know. But people who overdo it on the patriotism often do
have some sort of issue with themselves and their country.
andy...@gmail.com
> Ο <andyto...@gmail.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμαnews:798b7223-5d9b-42fd...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Apr 5, 6:11 am, raptori...@gmail.com wrote:
> >Well, did the Greek gov't rename its northern province "Macedonia" in
> >1989? If so, it looks a bit suspicious in its timing, no?
>
> Nope!
> I was born in 1962, lived in Macedonia from 3 to 12 and then again from 1985
> onwards.
> As far as I remember myself the region was called "Macedonia"!
> I wonder why you buy this silly, FYROM-ian propaganda?!
If you read elsewhere, I was corrected and admitted my error. The
prospect of admitting an error doesn't terrify me.
>
> >And what exactly is that kind of talk supposed to accomplish? It
> >sounds like you have something against the people of the FYROM
> >themselves.
>
> Suuuure, just listen to what FYROM-ians are saying/thinking about Greeks and
> then come and talk to me;-)
You can't control what the other guy says, but you can control what
you say.
>
> >Well, politicians say some pretty stupid things. Does this surprise
> >you?
>
> Yes!
> Because coming to some FYROM-ian politicians, saying stupid things is
> becoming a permanent habit ;-)
Surprise surprise.
>
> >> The united_macedonia aspirations is the core of the conflict
> >> not alexander the great.
> >Well, Alexander does get talked about a lot, and the Greeks are really
> >upset at that airport's name.
>
> What's so difficult to understand?!
> Can't you get the fact that this is "hiding" a historical/territorial/etc
> claim?!
> "Alexander is ours=we are the real Macedonians=you are the occupiers=give us
> the whole Macedonia"!
> I really can't believe how such naive people like you exist!
Well, I did posit the scenario of FYROM altering their constitution to
forever renounce any territorial claims against anybody, and signing
treaties to that effect. Would the "Alexander" and "name" issues go
away then? I doubt it.
Nashton
> On Apr 3, 11:48 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
> (geshnippen)
>> Then let's try and leave borders the way they are!
>> *This* is the only solution!
>
> I agree.
>
>>>> Greeks have committed a horrible act of cruelty and there are people
>>>> today that live with this. I know personally lots and lots of
>>>> Macedonians whose parents were born in Aegan Macedonia. We have come
>>>> to terms with the fact that piece of land is now Greece. But at least
>>>> stop bothering us and let us be who we are.
>>> Sounds reasonable enough.
>> No, it's not!
>> because according to us the slavs are thise who "...have committed a
>> horrible act of cruelty and there are people today that live with this.."!
>> So?!...
>
> Isn't that interesting. Everyone agrees that horrible atrocities took
> place, but can't agree on who committed them. What everyone does seem
> to agree on is that WE are the victims and THEY are the perpetrators.
>
>>> Stubborn as donkeys? Well, from the outside it looks as though
>>> everyone in the region fits that description.
>> You are unfair!
>> Greece went half the way down the road (against our pride...), everybody was
>> expecting FYROM to do the same, but they didn't!
>> I wonder who is the stubborn here...
>
> In this case, the Macedonians (or whatever you care to call them) look
> rather mulish and self-destructive. But that's just in this case. We
> all know that all the peoples of Southeastern Europe are proverbial
> for their stubbornness, and it seems silly for one nationality to
> accuse the other of stubbornness.
>
Tool, take your sophomoric drivel and irrelevant generalizations to
where someone will lend you an ear.
I believe I speak for all, do us a favor and shag off.
gogu
>On Apr 7, 5:37 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> Of course they would but as you can see by the answers of some FYROM-ian
>> posters in here they think they are not...
>There's one way to sort it all out, no?
I suppose so.
And soon the FYROM-ian leadership will be forced by reality to behave.
Because it's "find a compromise in the name issue or die (economically
speaking)".
Because a Greek veto in the EU/NATO=financial death for this small,
corrupted country.
Simple like that!
>> They are trapped in their extremist propaganda and in the old commie
>> stereotypes....
>> They see Greeks as their "natural" enemies while nobody in Europe discuss
>> in
>> such terms...
>I'm afraid that there's more than enough of that thinking going around
>for everyone.
Nope!
Greece is quite developed and rich to need such "motivation"!
And that's why you'll never hear such territorial claims by Greece!
>The ultranationalist cannot envision his country; he
>needs "traditional enemies" to blame all the ills of his country on.
True and I can understand an ultranationalist party or let's say a 5% of the
population of a given country to have such ideas.
What is unacceptable is an entire country's leadership and 90% of the people
to have such ideas!
And unfortunately that's what's happening to FYROM!
>The ultranationalist believes in one form or another that his nation
>is the best one their is (whatever that is supposed to mean).
Stupid.
>Then he
>looks around and is subconsciously apalled with all the imperfections
>in himself and his fellow-countrymen. Whether or not Greeks, Serbs,
>Albanians or Turks are "the chosen people", they are still people.
>People. And people are positively riddled with imperfections.
>Therefore a scapegoat must be found for all the drunks, prostitutes,
>thieves, criminals and corrupt, venal politicians in my own country,
>and the "traditional enemy" fits that bill perfectly. It's all his
>fault.
True.
>Besides, part of the ultranationalist's national myth is the long
>series of military victories over the Other, and the long series of
>defeats at the Other's hands are put down to treachery and betrayal by
>putative allies.
Quite true.
And I can "understand" such myths in the 19th or the first half of the 20th
century, but today???!!!
>People in southeastern Europe positively love to go
>on and on over how many "betrayals" they have had to suffer, don't
>they?
Not all of them!
Obviously you can't make the distinction between a much more modern Greece
(ideologically speaking) and its neighbors lately coming out of the commie
darkness and underdevelopment!
For good or for bad Greeks are living for decades in a capitalist,
prosperous society, with its good and bad.
They are much more interested in how to make a better living, they are
bothered by questions like "which limousine to buy, thus or that?", they
don't have time to be nationalistic (in the negative meaning of the word).
What you have to understand is that Greece is much more "globalized" society
(is that good or bad?...) and it has no need to be ultra nationalistic or to
have territorial claims!
>If I start a war and win it, I am a "great conqueror". If the
>Other does it, he is an agressor, oppressor and genocidist.
>Sound familiar?
Yes.
It's done ALL OVER THE WORLD, not only in Balkans!
Look at Iraq, Vietnam, etc...
>> Greece is the only country in the region that has no territorial claims
>> over
>> any of its neighbors!
>A depressing thought, really.
Sure but it's understandable in certain degree: all of our neighbors are
former commie country, just came out of "starvation" (literally and
metaphorically), so as you said they need such motivation (=claims) in order
to survive, to give their people a raison d'être...
But as I said above, you'll never hear Greece having territorial claims on
any of its neighbors.
>> And you know something funny?!
>> When the Albanians will start their separatist fight, *ONLY* Greece will
>> come and help FYROM!
>Sounds like a spreading conflict to me ....
Not really, it's just a scenario for now...
But as long as our neighbors behave like third world countries, being proud
to be an...American protectorate and so on, then it's normal that conflicts
will continue.
If the USoA is not (indirectly) encouraging them, peace will be in the
Balkans.
gogu
>On Apr 7, 6:52 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> Nope!
>> I was born in 1962, lived in Macedonia from 3 to 12 and then again from
>> 1985
>> onwards.
>> As far as I remember myself the region was called "Macedonia"!
>> I wonder why you buy this silly, FYROM-ian propaganda?!
>If you read elsewhere, I was corrected and admitted my error.
When I wrote it I was not aware of that.
> The
>prospect of admitting an error doesn't terrify me.
Of course not, only stupid people do not admit their mistakes!
>> Suuuure, just listen to what FYROM-ians are saying/thinking about Greeks
>> and
>> then come and talk to me;-)
>You can't control what the other guy says, but you can control what
>you say.
Sure I can't control what they say but I have the right to discuss and
oppose them!
>> Yes!
>> Because coming to some FYROM-ian politicians, saying stupid things is
>> becoming a permanent habit ;-)
>Surprise surprise.
Yes, it is a surprise!
Because these neo-commies do not realize that the American help is not
making them invincible!
And because they must realize that intransigence is not good for anyone let
alone for a small, poor and corrupted country like FYROM.
>> What's so difficult to understand?!
>> Can't you get the fact that this is "hiding" a historical/territorial/etc
>> claim?!
>> "Alexander is ours=we are the real Macedonians=you are the occupiers=give
>> us
>> the whole Macedonia"!
>> I really can't believe how such naive people like you exist!
>Well, I did posit the scenario of FYROM altering their constitution to
>forever renounce any territorial claims against anybody, and signing
>treaties to that effect.
Good!
Now let's see what FYROM-ians have to say on that;-)
LOL
>Would the "Alexander" and "name" issues go
>away then? I doubt it.
Of course not!
Constitution change is a "result" of the name changing, so they must *first*
agree to change the name and then amend the constitution.
And while changing the name in their constitution, they can also eliminate
all the territorial claims in it!
It's quite simple to do it; you just need the people with cojones to do
that.
And unfortunately I can't spot such a politician in today's FYROM political
class...
gogu
>On Apr 7, 6:10 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>What I was saying is that the world sees 2 countries arguing over
>"Macedonia" and Alexander the Great, and it all looks rather silly.
Your prerogative to believe whatever you want!
I can also say that the bloodshed of the American Civil War was a
"stupidity'!
Would you like that?
Or the war over Falklands was a stupidity, too!
Fighting for 3 rocks with no economical interest and with only a bunch of
sheep on them!
Would an Englishman agree with me?!
Obviously not!
So please don't ridicule whatever you can't understand, it's quite easy to
say "stupid" for something happening miles away from your home but you
wouldn't say the say if it was touching *your* feelings or beliefs!
Actually I have this modern "pragmatism" like "I don't care if it happens
miles away from my home, I only care if it affects *my* life"!
>> But they didn't do it! So it's clear to everyone to
>> understand that:
>> 1) It was the official party line which was dictating the whole
>> provocation!
>Maybe. Or maybe the FYROM gov't is being held hostage by hysterical
>ultranationalists.
If you listen to their "dialectics" you'll understand that it's more than
that, *they* are the ultranationalists!
>> 2) FYROM-ians lie when they say they have no territorial claims over
>> Greece
>> or other things!
>Either that or they don't know how to control the ultranationalist
>element in their society.
If you listen to their "dialectics" you'll understand that it's more than
that, *they* are the ultranationalists!
>>They are jsut "good" neo-commies applying old commie
>> propaganda methods!
>That's not very nice.
Of course it is!
Truth may hurt but it's best for all!
Plenty of Greeks wanted to go communist at the
>same time Yugoslavia did, after all.
Nope, not "plenty"!
A big part of those who fought under ELAS against the nazis did it for pure
patriotism, they had nothing to do with the commies!
If the Greek communist party later took over EAM and ELAS, that's another
story.
The average Greek is so selfish and attached to his land and property in
such a degree you can't imagine!
If you really new Greeks you would understand that your above statement
is -sorry- laughable ;-)
>> Did you know for instance that in their constitution it is talked
>> about the Aegean Macedonia and Macedonia of Pirin (Bulgaria) naming the
>> FYROM-ians living there (and the respective territories) "enslaved" or
>> under
>> occupation Macedonians???
>A little rewriting may be in order here.
"A little rewriting" you say?!
LOL
This is almost a nazi constitution, they were also talking about "lost
territories" and "vital space";-)
>> Well, certainly not Greece in this case!
>I think every country, including Greece, does some "creative
>interpretation" of history, usually to cast themselves in a good
>light. It's harmless enough.
Of course but here we have to deal with a "rape" of history, not a "creative
interpretation"!
Panta Rhei
>>>> Stubborn as donkeys? Well, from the outside it looks as though
>>>> everyone in the region fits that description.
>>> You are unfair!
>>> Greece went half the way down the road (against our pride...), everybody was
>>> expecting FYROM to do the same, but they didn't!
>>> I wonder who is the stubborn here...
>>
>> In this case, the Macedonians (or whatever you care to call them) look
>> rather mulish and self-destructive. But that's just in this case. We
>> all know that all the peoples of Southeastern Europe are proverbial
>> for their stubbornness, and it seems silly for one nationality to
>> accuse the other of stubbornness.
>>
>
> Tool, take your sophomoric drivel and irrelevant generalizations to
> where someone will lend you an ear.
>
> I believe I speak for all, do us a favor and shag off.
In case someone hasn't noticed yet: the tool thinks it is the outside world
for us! LOL
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:73cb84ad-d2ef-4d27-
> >There's one way to sort it all out, no?
>
> I suppose so.
> And soon the FYROM-ian leadership will be forced by reality to behave.
> Because it's "find a compromise in the name issue or die (economically
> speaking)".
> Because a Greek veto in the EU/NATO=financial death for this small,
> corrupted country.
> Simple like that!
Quite.
>
> >> They are trapped in their extremist propaganda and in the old commie
> >> stereotypes....
(snip)
> >I'm afraid that there's more than enough of that thinking going around
> >for everyone.
>
> Nope!
> Greece is quite developed and rich to need such "motivation"!
> And that's why you'll never hear such territorial claims by Greece!
I am not referring to territorial claims. I am referring to studying
history through a nationalist prism. Look at the various sites that
profess to tell the "real" history of Macedonia and you'll see what I
mean.
>
> >The ultranationalist cannot envision his country; he
> >needs "traditional enemies" to blame all the ills of his country on.
>
> True and I can understand an ultranationalist party or let's say a 5% of the
> population of a given country to have such ideas.
Possibly. But in a situation in which there are several countries with
some sort of grievance against each other penned up in a small area,
the ultranationalists can be extremely dangerous to the other 95%. Ask
a Bosnian.
> What is unacceptable is an entire country's leadership and 90% of the people
> to have such ideas!
> And unfortunately that's what's happening to FYROM!
I bet you will find that the average FYROMian isn't all that different
from you.
>
> >The ultranationalist believes in one form or another that his nation
> >is the best one their is (whatever that is supposed to mean).
>
> Stupid.
>
> >Then he
> >looks around and is subconsciously apalled with all the imperfections
> >in himself and his fellow-countrymen. Whether or not Greeks, Serbs,
> >Albanians or Turks are "the chosen people", they are still people.
> >People. And people are positively riddled with imperfections.
> >Therefore a scapegoat must be found for all the drunks, prostitutes,
> >thieves, criminals and corrupt, venal politicians in my own country,
> >and the "traditional enemy" fits that bill perfectly. It's all his
> >fault.
>
> True.
>
> >Besides, part of the ultranationalist's national myth is the long
> >series of military victories over the Other, and the long series of
> >defeats at the Other's hands are put down to treachery and betrayal by
> >putative allies.
>
> Quite true.
> And I can "understand" such myths in the 19th or the first half of the 20th
> century, but today???!!!
I grew up surrounded by that kind of thinking. It's a lot more current
than people think it is, and it is on the rise again.
>
> >People in southeastern Europe positively love to go
> >on and on over how many "betrayals" they have had to suffer, don't
> >they?
>
> Not all of them!
> Obviously you can't make the distinction between a much more modern Greece
> (ideologically speaking) and its neighbors lately coming out of the commie
> darkness and underdevelopment!
> For good or for bad Greeks are living for decades in a capitalist,
> prosperous society, with its good and bad.
> They are much more interested in how to make a better living, they are
> bothered by questions like "which limousine to buy, thus or that?", they
> don't have time to be nationalistic (in the negative meaning of the word).
> What you have to understand is that Greece is much more "globalized" society
> (is that good or bad?...) and it has no need to be ultra nationalistic or to
> have territorial claims!
I understand this, and I understand the fact that Greece is far more
modern and "European" than FYROM. I suppose this is probably why, on
balance, the West tends to back Greece. In effect, the West is backing
one of its own against an outsider.
>
> >If I start a war and win it, I am a "great conqueror". If the
> >Other does it, he is an agressor, oppressor and genocidist.
> >Sound familiar?
>
> Yes.
> It's done ALL OVER THE WORLD, not only in Balkans!
> Look at Iraq, Vietnam, etc...
I don't disagree. But it's very distructive if that kind of thinking
is somehow applied today or is used as a prop for centuries-old
hatreds.
>
> >> Greece is the only country in the region that has no territorial claims
> >> over
> >> any of its neighbors!
> >A depressing thought, really.
>
> Sure but it's understandable in certain degree: all of our neighbors are
> former commie country, just came out of "starvation" (literally and
> metaphorically), so as you said they need such motivation (=claims) in order
> to survive, to give their people a raison d'être...
And rabble-rousing politicians can distract their citizens from
political incompetence and corruption by manufacturing a crisis. It's
a very old game, and it's sad to see it played in this day and age.
> But as I said above, you'll never hear Greece having territorial claims on
> any of its neighbors.
Thank heavens for that.
>
> >> And you know something funny?!
> >> When the Albanians will start their separatist fight, *ONLY* Greece will
> >> come and help FYROM!
> >Sounds like a spreading conflict to me ....
>
> Not really, it's just a scenario for now...
> But as long as our neighbors behave like third world countries, being proud
> to be an...American protectorate and so on, then it's normal that conflicts
> will continue.
And I suppose we all ought to be thankful that Greece and FYROM are
just snarling at each other and a real conflict seems reasonably
remote. I imagine that 30 years ago, the bullets would already be
flying.
> If the USoA is not (indirectly) encouraging them, peace will be in the
> Balkans.
In the unlikely event that FYROM starts any real hostilities, I'll bet
that the Americans will end up bombing them, not Greece.
andy...@gmail.com
> Ï <andyto...@gmail.com> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìánews:2626e73e-6451-45c1...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
(snip)
> >You can't control what the other guy says, but you can control what
> >you say.
>
> Sure I can't control what they say but I have the right to discuss and
> oppose them!
Of course. It's the tone I was referring to, and not your tone in
specific.
>
> >> Yes!
> >> Because coming to some FYROM-ian politicians, saying stupid things is
> >> becoming a permanent habit ;-)
> >Surprise surprise.
>
> Yes, it is a surprise!
> Because these neo-commies do not realize that the American help is not
> making them invincible!
American help will evaporate if the FYROM becomes too much of a
liability to the Americans.
> And because they must realize that intransigence is not good for anyone let
> alone for a small, poor and corrupted country like FYROM.
Quite. They don't have many cards in their hands.
>
(snip)
> >> I really can't believe how such naive people like you exist!
> >Well, I did posit the scenario of FYROM altering their constitution to
> >forever renounce any territorial claims against anybody, and signing
> >treaties to that effect.
>
> Good!
> Now let's see what FYROM-ians have to say on that;-)
> LOL
I'm not holding my breath either, I'm afraid.
>
> >Would the "Alexander" and "name" issues go
> >away then? I doubt it.
>
> Of course not!
> Constitution change is a "result" of the name changing, so they must *first*
> agree to change the name and then amend the constitution.
I wonder why people keep telling me that Alexander has nothing to do
with any of this ...
ADR
> > I fail to see your point. The issue is not if the Greeks of Macedonia
> > have a healthy Macedonian identity. They do.
> It doesn't look that way to me. People with healthy identities don't
> lose their tempers so easily over it. For instance, I am heterosexual.
> I know this. If someone calls me a homosexual I know that it is
> untrue, so why do I care? It's the people with some sort of inner
> doubt or conflict who get angry about it.
Bad example. In this case, a whole group decided to call the other
homosexual and themselves as heterosexual and attempted to establish
this by legal and procedural means. There is a vast difference in
this.
> > What you have seen
> > recently is in fact an expression of this identity.
> Identity expressed in a typically Balkan way: I use my "itentity" as a
> weapon against yours.
Not true. In fact, if we are talking about weapons, FYROM fired the
first shot. In fact, it is well recorded that in deciding to name the
state "Republic of Macedonia", the founding elite knew quite well that
they would have antagonized Greece but decided to do it anyway. There
is a clear difference between naming a state "Republic of Macedonia"
and "Republic of Northern Macedonia" (just an example). The former is
definitely and definitively an attempt to describe the state as the
sole "representative" of Macedonia despite the fact that it occupies
only a tiny sliver of ancient Macedonia and none of medieval
Macedonia. Those being "attacked" in this case were the Macedonians
of Greece.
> > Conflicting
> > historical narratives are the core of any conflict. If FYROM manages
> > to establsh their "Macedonian" identity, further claims will follow
>
> Why do you say that?
Because these claims have and continue to being made. Naming Skopje's
airport "Alexander the Great" is a clear claim and it is a clear claim
populating schoolbooks with maps of a mythical unified Macedonia with
clear inferences that the "Aegean Macedonia" section is now "occupied"
by Greeks. I would not even go any further that this is expressed
position of the ruling party of FYROM that one cannot be a Greek and a
Macedonian. One of the most vociferous proponents of this did not
hesitate to send me a personal email stating this, knowing very well
that my credentials of being called a Macedonian are far better than
his and most likely of anybody who posts here. I have posted my
family's history in another thread (the identity of ....).
> > and the conflict will intensify simply because they will have assumed
> > that their "narrative", however bizzare, is gaining international
> > recognition. Since an essential element of this narrative is that the
> > "Greeks occupy Aegean Macedonia" and that they themselves are the
> > "descendents of the ancient Macedonians" what do you think is the
> > logical consequence of this?
>
> Why don't we wait until we get to that point before we start to lose
> our heads? Plenty of countries have competing territorial claims, and
> there are mechanisms in place to deal with them.
Exactly the opposite should be the case here. We should not allow
this problem to grow.
> > It is quite instructive that one element
> > that really played against them was the renaming of the Skopje
> > airport as "Alexander the Great Airport". For the first time, this
> > provided a clue to those remote from the conflict to understand a
> > little better the essense of the dispute.
>
> We can note it, track it, study it. I doubt anyone will ever
> understand it. What if Quito, Ecuador renamed its airport "David ben
> Gurion International Airport", or if Tokyo called its airport "Julius
> Caesar International Airport"? Would the Israelis or Italians have a
> hissy fit? I seriously doubt their reaction would be anything more
> than slight puzzlement, if that.
Come on, why hide behind your finger. We know that Equador does not
pretend to be Israel and does not deny that Israel is Israel. Had
these claims been made, reactions would have been different. Nor does
Japan pretends to be the rightful heir of the Roman Empire. We have
all these claims in FYROM.
> > It was reported that the US
> > diplomats tried to convince the Skopje authorities to change the
> > airport name in order to help their cause, but they refused. The
> > Skopje leadership pushed the renaming in the belief that the US would
> > have pressured Athens successfully and an invitation to join NATO
> > would have marked a victory not only against Greece but also a
> > recognition of their historical claims.
>
> There's that h-word again. Conflicting narratives if you like. If your
> "history" leads you to bloodshed, then you should forget about it.
Weird. Why don't you try to convice the other group to forget their
"history"? Greece represents the oldest literate nation with a
continuous 4000 year history and a unique contribution to the history
of the world and you suggest that we fall in amnesia?
> > > > The united_macedonia aspirations is the core of the conflict
> > > > not alexander the great.
>
> > > Well, Alexander does get talked about a lot, and the Greeks are really
> > > upset at that airport's name.
>
> > What does this imply to you?
>
> This implies that memories are 2300 years too long.
What about those who renamed the airport? How long are their memories
and how bizzare??? You seem to have only one measure. FYROM should
behave as irresponsibly as it wants and Greece should exercise
national amnesia. Is this your suggestion? (it seems to me that it
is)
gogu
>On Apr 8, 2:16 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> Nope!
>> Greece is quite developed and rich to need such "motivation"!
>> And that's why you'll never hear such territorial claims by Greece!
>I am not referring to territorial claims. I am referring to studying
>history through a nationalist prism.
That was true also in Greece until the end of the cold war and in a certain
degree it was "dictated" by our good friends, guess who, the Americans;-)
They wanted us motivated against the slav "enemy"!
But since almost 20 years school books have been changed and history is
taught in a much more objective manner...
> Look at the various sites that
>profess to tell the "real" history of Macedonia and you'll see what I
>mean.
Indeed.
And if you are old enough on the net you'll realize that:
1) those sites were much less in the 90's
2) there are more FYROM-ian such sites trying desperately to convince the
whole world that they are the real descents of Alexander the Great;-)
IMO similar Greek sites are just a reply to the unscrupulous FYROM-ian
propaganda sites and an effort to not let fool people around the world!
>> True and I can understand an ultranationalist party or let's say a 5% of
>> the
>> population of a given country to have such ideas.
>Possibly. But in a situation in which there are several countries with
>some sort of grievance against each other penned up in a small area,
>the ultranationalists can be extremely dangerous to the other 95%. Ask
>a Bosnian.
Not comparable because in Bosnia's case ultranationalists were not only 5%
but much more...
Plus, there was the religious factor there which made things worst...
>> What is unacceptable is an entire country's leadership and 90% of the
>> people
>> to have such ideas!
>> And unfortunately that's what's happening to FYROM!
>I bet you will find that the average FYROMian isn't all that different
>from you.
Of course he is not, I've been there many times!
He is different in the grade of "nationalism" he has in his heart!
Just follow their TV programs, compare it with what you can watch on the
Greek TV and you'll understand what I am trying to say.
>> Quite true.
>> And I can "understand" such myths in the 19th or the first half of the
>> 20th
>> century, but today???!!!
>I grew up surrounded by that kind of thinking.
Where was that?
>It's a lot more current
>than people think it is, and it is on the rise again.
I am not sure if this is really the case and also, it depends of what
country/region are you talking about.
It may be true in the Balkans but I don't think so for say the US, Canada or
Australia!
>> Not all of them!
>> Obviously you can't make the distinction between a much more modern
>> Greece
>> (ideologically speaking) and its neighbors lately coming out of the
>> commie
>> darkness and underdevelopment!
>> For good or for bad Greeks are living for decades in a capitalist,
>> prosperous society, with its good and bad.
>> They are much more interested in how to make a better living, they are
>> bothered by questions like "which limousine to buy, thus or that?", they
>> don't have time to be nationalistic (in the negative meaning of the
>> word).
>> What you have to understand is that Greece is much more "globalized"
>> society
>> (is that good or bad?...) and it has no need to be ultra nationalistic or
>> to
>> have territorial claims!
>I understand this, and I understand the fact that Greece is far more
>modern and "European" than FYROM. I suppose this is probably why, on
>balance, the West tends to back Greece.
???
I fail to understand what kind of "backing Greece" is that when 122
countries have recognized FYROM as..."Macedonia" against Greece's
objections!
> In effect, the West is backing
>one of its own against an outsider.
Totally untrue!
I am afraid you don't know at all the region!
The "West" (=USA, UK, etc) is actually backing FYROM because they need it as
a military base for their interests in the Balkans!
They need a puppet state (sounds a bell? South America, South East Asia,
etc?...), easily controllable, enough corrupted to not oppose any kind of
resistance, to have a base against the "evil" Serbians and other who are not
obeying to their will!
>> Yes.
>> It's done ALL OVER THE WORLD, not only in Balkans!
>> Look at Iraq, Vietnam, etc...
>I don't disagree. But it's very distructive if that kind of thinking
>is somehow applied today or is used as a prop for centuries-old
>hatreds.
!!! Good!
Then ask for you government (if you are a US citizen) to stop using this
*exact* method for pursuing its interests!!!
>> Sure but it's understandable in certain degree: all of our neighbors are
>> former commie country, just came out of "starvation" (literally and
>> metaphorically), so as you said they need such motivation (=claims) in
>> order
>> to survive, to give their people a raison d'être...
>And rabble-rousing politicians can distract their citizens from
>political incompetence and corruption by manufacturing a crisis. It's
>a very old game, and it's sad to see it played in this day and age.
You are beginning to understand the problem;-)
>> Not really, it's just a scenario for now...
>> But as long as our neighbors behave like third world countries, being
>> proud
>> to be an...American protectorate and so on, then it's normal that
>> conflicts
>> will continue.
>And I suppose we all ought to be thankful that Greece and FYROM are
>just snarling at each other and a real conflict seems reasonably
>remote. I imagine that 30 years ago, the bullets would already be
>flying.
It can happen even today if it serves the interests of Uncle Sam...
We have seen it in many places around the globe even today, not only 30
years ago...
>> If the USoA is not (indirectly) encouraging them, peace will be in the
>> Balkans.
>In the unlikely event that FYROM starts any real hostilities,
They can't do that and we all know that.
What they hope is this: convince the whole world that we the Greeks are
occupying their territories and USA one day will decide to help them, force
us to give those territories back to them!
This is their usual, sneaky, coward way, let others do our job!
How stupid they are!
>I'll bet
>that the Americans will end up bombing them, not Greece.
Americans will bomb *anyone* if they think this is best serving their
interests!
gogu
>On Apr 8, 2:26 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> Sure I can't control what they say but I have the right to discuss and
>> oppose them!
>Of course. It's the tone I was referring to, and not your tone in
>specific.
People talk.
People are different.
People use different tone to talk.
Let people use the tone they want.
Das ist democracy;-)
>> Yes, it is a surprise!
>> Because these neo-commies do not realize that the American help is not
>> making them invincible!
>American help will evaporate if the FYROM becomes too much of a
>liability to the Americans.
Of course but their mistake is that said help will be for ever;-)
MHO to the Skopians: take whatever you can take now, accept a compromise in
order to become an UE and NATO member in order to save your muribund state,
and forget about history forgeries and/or territorial claims!
History has taught us that with the passing of time, intrnsigent people are
later begging for a solution they have refused earlier...
Ask the Cypriots about that...
>> And because they must realize that intransigence is not good for anyone
>> let
>> alone for a small, poor and corrupted country like FYROM.
>Quite. They don't have many cards in their hands.
True, but they think they are a super-power;-)
LOL
>> >Well, I did posit the scenario of FYROM altering their constitution to
>> >forever renounce any territorial claims against anybody, and signing
>> >treaties to that effect.
>> Good!
>> Now let's see what FYROM-ians have to say on that;-)
>> LOL
>I'm not holding my breath either, I'm afraid.
Me, too.
But it's sad because if they don't that they will fade and posibly
desintegrade in a couple a years...
Bad economy=poverty=social unrest+35% of an Albanian minority=trouble...
andy...@gmail.com
> ? <andyto...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????news:4693e755-91e6-4118...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >On Apr 8, 2:26 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
> >> Sure I can't control what they say but I have the right to discuss and
> >> oppose them!
> >Of course. It's the tone I was referring to, and not your tone in
> >specific.
>
> People talk.
> People are different.
> People use different tone to talk.
> Let people use the tone they want.
> Das ist democracy;-)
Heh heh .... I don't disagree.
>
(snip)
> >American help will evaporate if the FYROM becomes too much of a
> >liability to the Americans.
>
> Of course but their mistake is that said help will be for ever;-)
> MHO to the Skopians: take whatever you can take now, accept a compromise in
> order to become an UE and NATO member in order to save your muribund state,
> and forget about history forgeries and/or territorial claims!
Oddly enough, I think the territorial issue will be the easier one to
settle.
> History has taught us that with the passing of time, intrnsigent people are
> later begging for a solution they have refused earlier...
> Ask the Cypriots about that...
Oh yes. But nationalism makes people go blind. You can't think
straight if you let your guts think for you.
>
(snip)
> >> Now let's see what FYROM-ians have to say on that;-)
> >> LOL
> >I'm not holding my breath either, I'm afraid.
>
> Me, too.
> But it's sad because if they don't that they will fade and posibly
> desintegrade in a couple a years...
> Bad economy=poverty=social unrest+35% of an Albanian minority=trouble...
I know. Especially if they are talking irredentism. Bad precedent to
set.
ADR
> > Of course but their mistake is that said help will be for ever;-)
> > MHO to the Skopians: take whatever you can take now, accept a compromise in
> > order to become an UE and NATO member in order to save your muribund state,
> > and forget about history forgeries and/or territorial claims!
>
> Oddly enough, I think the territorial issue will be the easier one to
> settle.
Andy, the fact is that as long as FYROM insists on the current name,
it means that it espouses the whole philosophy behind it (that it
represents the only Macedonia) and thus,any statements regarding lack
of territorial ambitions are simply not credilbe. I have difficulty
believing that if the circumstances were auspicious, FYROM would not
act on the basis of its core philosophy (to "liberate Aegean
Macedonia"). I think that Greeks can be naive at times but not that
much. When a state names its major airport "Alexander the Great", can
it be trusted not to make a move if possible to "liberate" the
birthplace of Alexander the Great and the capitals of the Macedonian
state? We see the current leadership laying wreaths in monuments
illustrating this philosophy. It strains credulity to think that
simple statements can be of any consequence here.
> > Me, too.
> > But it's sad because if they don't that they will fade and posibly
> > desintegrade in a couple a years...
> > Bad economy=poverty=social unrest+35% of an Albanian minority=trouble...
>
> I know. Especially if they are talking irredentism. Bad precedent to
> set.
I do not wish ill for FYROM. Although I do not believe that the
ministates that emerged from the dissolution of Yugoslavia are viable
entities in the long term, they are here and they are populated by
real people with real needs. I wish them the best for the future. I
think that it is incumbent of the leadership of these unfortunate
places to move quickly to resolve conflicts so that we can all
collaborate for a better future.
gogu
>On Apr 9, 2:32 am, "gogu" <RruminiiSugPu...@Greci.com> wrote:
>> Of course but their mistake is that said help will be for ever;-)
>> MHO to the Skopians: take whatever you can take now, accept a compromise
>> in
>> order to become an UE and NATO member in order to save your muribund
>> state,
>> and forget about history forgeries and/or territorial claims!
>Oddly enough, I think the territorial issue will be the easier one to
>settle.
Depends...
>> History has taught us that with the passing of time, intrnsigent people
>> are
>> later begging for a solution they have refused earlier...
>> Ask the Cypriots about that...
>Oh yes. But nationalism makes people go blind. You can't think
>straight if you let your guts think for you.
I was referring to this: in a negotiation the intransigent party rejects a
given solution. Negotiations start again, the intransigent party is pressed
by the events (or the Americans...) to find a solution, then a new proposal
falls on the table which is -usually- worse than the one refused before!...