DYO GAIDAROI MALLWNANE SE KSENON AXYRWNA.;-)

[Hades]

First of all i will use Hellenic since i feel more comfortable with it
and the people involved into this thread are Hellenes, so.

Prwta ap' ola na sas ekshghsw oti o titlos einai allhgorikos kai OXI
prosblhtikos, ;-) . Afora thn ypothesh Tsenai(aman pia) thn Ellhnikh
shmaia kai tous metanastes. Edw kai kati bdomades trwgwsaste metaksy
sas. Nai esas ennow, Allotrios, Pularinos kai gogu. Loipooon exw na pw
kati : (yp'opsin den to " paizw " " kati " kai kala, sas sebomai
OLOUS, auto pros apofyghn parekshghsewn)
Parathrhsa oti KANEIS ek twn Allotrios kai gogu DEN sxoliase ena allo
arthro mou pou eixe titlo : " All the truth about Tsenai " Mono o
Pilarinos ekane ena thetiko mikro sxolio. Ayto pou exw na pw einai to
ekshs : Exete metatrepsei to thema se mia KATHARA PRWSWPIKH FILONIKIA
! Kai ekshgoume : Einai eukolo file Allotrie na " puroboleis " ton
Pularino, mia kai aytos exei th " stampa " tou neo-fasista-xountikou
kai etsi eukola mporeis na tou prosapseis ta eks amakshs. Den kanw to
dhkhgoro tou Pylarinou, pros theou. DEN mou to " zhthse " alla
epipleon einai ikanos na uperaspistei ton eayto tou kai tis idees tou.
DEN symfwnw me polles apopseis tou kai thewrw oti oi xountikoi htan
POULHMENA TOMARIA h aplws HLITHIOI ! TELEIA KAI PAULA ! Egw krinw ek
tou apotelesmatos kai to aptelesma leei oti oi Tourkoi me DIKH tous
aformh katexoun 30 xronia twra thn Kupro. Epish den sygxwrw ta
basanhsthria kai tous ektopismous twn aristerwn kai tosa alla. Ayta
gia na mhn me "xarakthrisete" "eukola" xountiko, Allotrie. Twra sto
thema ths shmaias: Giati den mphkes ston kopo na sxoliaseis to post
mou Allotrie? Isws epeidh den tha sou htan eukolo, alla pisteuw oti
pio polu endiaferei ton kathena na "epiblhthei" ston allo para to
KOINO KALO. Pes mou: Yparxei pote pithanothta na bgei kati to thetiko
apo ayth sas th fagwmara??? Sigoura oxi. DEN sas kanw mathima, thn
apopsh mou lew. Eipes oti oi Arxaioi Ellhnes dexontan se OLLA ws ISOUS
tous metanastes. Pes mou, Allotrie, mporousan na paroun meros stous
Olumpiakous Agwnes ???? Thn YPSISTH ekdhlwsh tou Ellhnismou ? H
apanthsh einai : OXI.
Mporousan, allotrie, na ginoun Spartiates Polites ??: OXI. Kai Tosa
alla. Oson afora ayta pou eipes gia tous Athinaious: An diabaseis
PRAGMATIKA kapoio biblio kai oxi knena apospasma apo kapou sto
Internet, tote tha deis oti Athinaios poliths me PLHRH POLITIKA
DIKAIWMATA DEN mporouse na ginei Barbaros para MONON allos Ellhn !!
Katalabaineis pisteuw : OXI Allodapos-Barbaros, alla mono Ellhn! Oson
afora th filoklsenia twn Arxaiwn Ellhnwn : Pragmati, ETSI HTAN !
Hmastan kai eimaste thelw na pisteuw filoksenos laos. Alla auto pes
mou TI sxesh exei na kanei me to an mporouse na ginei kapoios
Athinaios poliths h oxi.
?????? Allo to ENA kai allo to ALLO! Einai san ayto pou lete gia thn
shmaia: Ti sto kalo exei na kanei h ELLHNIKH SHMAIA kai to SYMBOLLO
tou ELLHNISMOU me thn BATHMOLOGIA?????? Pes mou TI?! TIPOTA APOLUTWS !
Den kserw thn hlikia sou alla otan phgaina egw sxolio tis shmaies tis
" efere" ksereis poios ???
AYTOS ME TO YPSHLOTERO HTHOS KAI FRONHMA ! Kai OXI th megaluterh
bathmologia! Ksereis pote allakse auto???? To 2000! Apo to *MOUNI* ton
Eythymiou! Epishs mexri tote "Tas Shmaias Tas Efere Ekeinos Pou
Dynatai Na Tis Yperaspistei"! Gia ayto to logo ta koritsia(paliotera)
alla kai ta paidia me anaphries DEN mporousan na "Feroyn Tas
Shmaias". Re paidia, h Shmaia Mas DEN einai kati san "Kupelo", phrame
to prwtathlima kai th shkwnoume, oute kati san epibrabeush!
Gia epibrabeush exoume ALLA BRABEIA KAI EPATHLA!! Xrhmatika kai mh!
Den to blepete oti theloun na prokalesoun thn PLHRH APAKSIWSH ths
Ellhnikhs Koinwnias oi KARGIOLHDES pou mas KUBERNOUN??? Na tautisoume
thn Shmaia stis kardies mas ME kapoiou eidous "EPATHLO". Kounia pou
tous kounage, ta KATHIKIA! Kai erxomaste meta kai TRWGWMASTE metaksy
mas gia to aytonohto! Kai kati akoma, Allotrie: H boulh twn Efhbwn
ksereis th pshfhsma ebgale ton Semptembrh pou mas perase??? Oti "Th
shmaia DEN mporoun na thn shkwsoun ALLODAPOI mathites para mono
ELLHNES! Stous ALLODAPOUS mathites na dinontai(gia prosekse) ALLA
EPATLA KAI BRABEIA!! NAI! ALLA EPATHLA KAI BRABEIA! Kai pes mou: Oi
KARGIOLHDES "proodeutikoi" kai oi "pseuto-aristeroi" oi politikoi, pou
OLLES tis alles fores "KOPTONTAI" TOSO polu gia tis apofaseis ths
boulhs twn Efhbwn, ayth th fora DEN KANANE KAMIA APOLUTWS
ANAFORA!!OUTE TA GAMHMENA MME!! Oti tous sumfairei ta KATHIKIA TOU
KERATA! Ayto pws to krineis, Allotrie??? DEN einai FASISTIKO??? To na
parousiazoume OTI OPWS kai OPOTE mas aresei????? Asfalws kai einai!
Den einai "XOUNTIKO"??? ASFALWS KAI EINAI!! DEN einai SXEDIASMENO???
ASFALWS KAI EINAI!!! GIATI?? Ayto tha to afhsw na to krineis esy, file
mou. Den katalabainw POU to briskete to paralogo! Ti sto daimona exei
na kanei h "upshlh bathmologia" me thn Shmaia??? Einai PRWTOS
mathiths?? Wraia kurie, TIMHSE TON(opws ginotan kai ginetai akoma)!
Dwse tou ARISTEIA! Dwse tou EPATHLA! Xrhmatika kai mh, alla OXI thn
SHMAIA! DEN einai BRABEIO! DEN einai EPATHLO! Thn YPOTIMAME OLOI otan
thn katantame ena aplo EPARTHLO, ena aplo "pani". DEN to
katalabainete??? Ametrhtoi PETHANAN h AKRWTHRIASTHKAN gia ayto
to..."EPATHLO"????? DEN nomizw oti to eblepan san epathlo h brabeio.
An htan etsi, file Allotrie, DEN tha edinan th Zwh tous, ta xeria tous
kai ta podia tous. An phgaines kai rwtouses enan palaimaxo
akrwthriasmeno h oxi, TI pisteueis oti tha sou elege gia th shmaia??
Oti einai ena epathlo??? Phgaine ston pappou mou, katw sthn
Pelloponhso(einai sta 90 tou twra, na'nai kala), o opoios htan sto
metwpo ths Albanias kai rwthse ton "Ti symbolize gia sas h
shmaia"?????
Pisteuw oti den tha mporouses kan na ton rwthseis, giati tha
katalabaines oti kai mono h erwthsh tha htan prosblhtikh gia kapoion
pou polemhse san ayton.
DEN exw problhma me tous ENNOMOUS kai OXI PARANOMOUS metanastes, alla
h Shmaia kurioi einai kati polu parapanw apo oti nomizoun oi ekastote
kubernontes: H shmaia mas ANHKEI! Teleia kai paula! DEN exei sxesh me
ratsismo kai alles tetoies ARXIDIES KAMARWTES! Re file, esy "dineis"
th gynaika sou apo dw ki apo kei??? OXI! Kati antistoixo einai kai
auto: KATI ENTELWS PRWSIPIKO GIA TON KATHE ELLHNA! Kai den pisteuw na
eisai ratsisths pou den dineis thn gynaika sou apo dw ki apo kei etsi?
;-))(kai ligo xioumor)
Twra kati allo gia to oti "Oi Ellhnes den kanoun orismenes doulies".
Re pallhkaria, stis ELIES kai sta AMPLELIA, stis OIKODOMES kai sta
KARABIA POIOI douleuan prina apo MOLIS 15 xronia????? Kai ekshgoumai:
Exw "elies" sthn Pelloponhso. Kserete poso poulame to kilo to ladi???
MONO 600 draxmes! Dhladh LIGOTERO apo 2 eurw! Kserete poso kanei
eksw???? PANW apo 1200 draxmes to kilo! To GAMHMENO kratos twn
NEO-GRAIKULWN POULHMENWN POLITIKANTHDWN THS KAKIAS WRAS
UPOXREWNEI(bazei plafon) tous paragwgous na poulane to ladi mexri 600
draxmes! Oute draxmh parapanw! Twra balte tous ergates, to elaiotribio
ta lipasmata, ta metaforika kai kana-duo alla kostoi kai PES TE MOU:
PWS GINETAI NA EPIBIWSEI O ELLHNAS AGROTHS AN DEN PAREI TON ALBANO H
TON BOULGARO POU STIXOIZOUN SXEDON TA MISA???!!!!!!
To KRATOS YPOXREWNEI OXI MONO TOUS ELLHNES AGROTES ALLA KAI OLLOUS
TOUS ALLOUS EPIXHRHMATIES NA PAIRNOUN ALLODAPOUS STIS DOULIES TOUS!!
PARTE TO XAMPARI!! KSYPNHSTE!!! To GAMHMENO kratos mas GAMAEI tous
Ellhnes!!
gia na to pw pio wma! O Ellhnas DOULEUEI KAI MALISTA POLU KALA *AN*
TOU DWSEIS ENA A-K-S-I-O-P-R-E-P-E-S MEROKAMATO KAI A-S-F-A-L-E-I-A!!
Ayth einai h allhthia kai kamia allh.
Allwste sthn Ellada zw apo tote pou gennhthika kai kati kserw parapanw
apo osous zoun sto ekswteriko. DEN thelw na se prosballw Allotrie,
alla einai alliws na th zeis mia katastash KATHIMERINA, etsi den
einai, file?
Na pw kai kati liga gia to egklhma. Lene oti oi Allodapoi genika den
prokalesan aukshsh twn egklhmatwn. Akouste: Apo ta EKSAKRIBWMENA
EGKLHMATA to 50% twn ANTHRWPOKTONIWN
tis exoun diapraksei Allodapoi, dhladh peripou to 10% tou plhthusmou!!
Epipleon, yparxei kai mia megalh diafora me paliotera: Enw prin to
1990 protou oi Albanoi kuriws mpouan ATHROA sthn Ellada, to pososto
twn egklhmatwn KATA ZWHS htan EKSIXNIASMENO kata 95%, to 2000 to
pososto auto einai DRASTIKA MIKROTERO!! An thumamai kala einai kapou
sto 60-70% Pragma pou shmainei oti PARA POLLA EGKLHMATA(Den milame gia
klopes) DEN exoun brei th lush tous! Kai einai eukolo na katalabei
kaneis to *GIATI*: Polu apla oi LATHROMETANASTES-PARANOMOI METANASTES
DEN exoun ta katallhla egrafa, DEN exoun Astynomikes tautothtes OUTE
kataxwrhmena daktulika apotupwmata alla kai to kuriwtero: oute kserei
kaneis pou menoun!!! San na mhn eftane ayto statistika tou 2003
deixnoun oti ENAS stous TREIS LATHROMETANASTES DEN ERGAZETAI!! Kserete
gia posous milame??? Gia 500.000 ANERGOUS LATHROMETANASTES! Pragma pou
shmainei oti KATI prepei na kanoun gia na zhsoun bre aderfe giati MH
exontas doulepsei pouthena alla kai MH katexontas ta katallhla egrafa
DEN mporei na parei OUTE epidoma OUTE OTIDHPOTE apo thn(oti exei
apomeinei) Koinwnikh Pronia!(blepete tipota to periergo kai
"ratsistiko" mexri stigmhs? Fysika kai tha kanoun kati gia a zhsoun,
DEN to blepw "afysiko")
Kai dystyxws DEN epilegoun OLOI tis "nomimes" drasthriothtes: Polloi
kanoun kai EGLHMATA gia na zhsoun! Me apotelesma na afkshthei kai h
egklhmatikothta. Nomizete oti kathontai na psofhsoun apo thn peina??
Kai giati na katsoun?? Afou exoun kai allh epilogh: apo to na
pethanoun apo thn peina as dokimasoun kai oti tous bgei.
Blepete tipota to RATSISTIKO se auta pou lew??? An nai pou? Olla ta
alla krath pou exoun NOMOUS pou EFARMOZONTAI KATA ths
LATHROMETANASTEUSHS einai RATSISTIKA???? Einai MALAKES opi GERMANOI
kai oi ITALOI?? DEN to nomizw! Aplws PROSTATEUOUN to LAO tous kai thn
KOINWNIKH SUNOXH TOUS, se ANTITHESH me ta MOUNOPANA tous
NEO-GRAIKULOUS POLITIKOUS pou exoume emeis! Makari na htan alliws alla
AYTH EINAI DYSTYXWS H ALLHTHIA!
Ouf! ;-) kourasthka paides. An proseballa kanenan kai eidika ton filo
ton Allotrio giati se ayton anaferthika tis perisoterees fores(ta
"malla" pou lene), zhtw sygnwmh, den eixa oute exw tetoia prothesh.
Oso gia sena gogu sorry pou den anaferthika alla kuriws exeis
"proswpika" me ton Pylarino opote ti na pw?? Kai esena Pylarine mporei
na mhn moirazomai tis idees sou alla auto den paei na pei tipota.
Elpizw na mhn se proseballa pouthena. A, twra thumithika pou mou eixes
pei gia to an hmoun fantaros sta Imia, nai hmoun sthn aeroporia, den
me kalesan gia epistrateush, hmoun "mesa", ;-). Hmoun se mia apo tis 6
MSEP: Moira Stathmou Elenxou kai Proeidopoihshs. Ws hlektronikos,
ksereis puknwtes, kollhthria, sxedia, ktl, ;-).
Plhroforiaka exoume 4 MKSE Moires Kentrikou Stathmou Elenxou 8 MSEP
kai 6 SA Stathmous Anaforas. Synolika 18 Epigeia Radar kaluptoun thn
epikrateia. Ta 15-16 apo ayta exoun apokleistika thn eythynei na
"parakolouthoun" tous "filous" mas tous Moggolous. As opsete o
kathikhs o Giorgakhs! An eixe o kosmos estw kai mia MIKRH IDEA gia to
TI PRAGMATIKA ginetai panw apo to Aigaio mas pisteuw oti ta pragmata
tha htan alliws. Alla "koimizoun" thn koinh gnwmh me "arton kai
theamata". Oute o Goebbels den tha ta kataferne kalutera. Ksereis ti
paei na pei 2000 Peripou parabiaseiss to 6mhno???? Asto kalutera. Isws
sto mellon milhsw pio polu gia ayta...alla den mporw na pw kai
polla...katalabaineis...;-).

Oson afora to kentriko thema gia th shmaia, th lathrometanasteush ktl,
sas entharinw na kanoume mia koubenta POLITISMENH afhnwntas EKSW tous
eautous mas. Dhladh: Allotrie, gogu Pylarine kai OPOIOS allos thelei
einai EYPROSDEKTOS! APANTHSTE alla MHN arxisete na thn "peftete" o
enas ston allo: "tha se kanw, tha se deiksw" nazi-greek, shut the fuck
up, ktl. E-L-E-O-S! Sas to zhtaw san kapoio eidos "ekthmhshs" gia olo
ayto pou egrapsa, ;-)(pwpw molis to ksanakoitaksa katalaba oti shmera
den eixa kai polu doulia, ;-). As katsoume na syzhthsoume, alla KOSMIA
opws oi progonoi mas.

Na'ste kala kai REALISTES oso to dunaton pio polu,

-Hades
apo thn synnefiasmenh Athina.

[Allotrios]

In article <4a725c2a.03111...@posting.google.com>, Hades
areistogei...@yahoo.com stated:

> Einai eukolo file Allotrie na " puroboleis " ton
> Pularino, mia kai aytos exei th " stampa " tou neo-fasista-xountikou
> kai etsi eukola mporeis na tou prosapseis ta eks amakshs.

Syggnomi file alla den pyrobolisa kanenan. Apla sizhtousa mazi tou
kai autos epanelimena arniotan na minei sto thema kai sth sinexia
arxise na me prosbalei. Mporei na exei dikio kai o Tsenai nai einai
Albanos kataskopos h otidipote all nomizei oti einai. To thema
einai oti anefera ena dedomeno to opoio o kyrios Pilarinos arnitai
na paradextei alla den mporei kai na aporipsei. H filoksenia htan
simantikotato meros tou Ellhinikou politismou. H ksenofobia den
xoraei sthn Ellhnikh koultoura. Einai kseno pragma pros tous
Ellhnes. Den kserw gia pio logo theorise oti prepei na mou
epitethei prosopika epidi anefera kati pou o kathe ellhnas tha
eprepe na kserei.

Na epanalabw, den ton pyrobolw. Monos tou "pyrobolei to podi
tou" ;)

> Ayta gia na mhn me "xarakthrisete" "eukola" xountiko, Allotrie.

Den xaraktirisa kanenan xountiko, prospathw na min kanw prosopikes
epitheseis se atoma ta opoia den gnorizw arketa kai den exw kamia
proswpikh empiria mazi tous.

> Twra sto thema ths shmaias: Giati den mphkes ston kopo na
> sxoliaseis to post mou Allotrie?

Giati den to eida? Den kserw an auto sou fenetai parakseno h oxi,
alla den diabazw ola ta articles se auto to group. Den exw ton
xrono kai polles fores oute thn diathesh. Poio arthro einai kai
pote to estiles, na psaksw na to brw kai na apanthsw.

> Eipes oti oi Arxaioi Ellhnes dexontan se OLLA ws ISOUS
> tous metanastes. Pes mou, Allotrie, mporousan na paroun meros stous
> Olumpiakous Agwnes ???? Thn YPSISTH ekdhlwsh tou Ellhnismou ? H
> apanthsh einai : OXI.

Kai oi gynekes den mporousan na paroun meros stous Olympiakous
agones. Ti simenei auto? Den htan Ellhinides? To DNA tous den
epaize rolo sth sinexia tou Ellinikou ethnous? Oi idees tous den
epireazan thn Ellhinikh koultoura? Den eipa pouthena oti oi
Arxaiaoi Ellhnes dexotan tous pantes kai ta panta. Eipa oti
yparxoun paradeigmata pou dixnoun oti dexotan ksenous na zoun
anamesa tous kai se polles periptoseis akoma kai na exoun paromoia
an oxi ta idia dikaiomata. Efera kai to paradeigma tou Solon. Eipa
episeis oti h filoksenia (to antitheto ths ksenofobias) htan mia
apo tis kyrioteres arxes twn. Den htan? H apopsh mou einai oti den
mporeis na apokaleis ton eauto sou Ellhna kai na miseis olous tous
ksenous.

> An diabaseis PRAGMATIKA kapoio biblio kai oxi knena apospasma
> apo kapou sto Internet, tote tha deis oti Athinaios poliths me
> PLHRH POLITIKA DIKAIWMATA DEN mporouse na ginei Barbaros para
> MONON allos Ellhn !! Katalabaineis pisteuw : OXI
> Allodapos-Barbaros, alla mono Ellhn! Oson afora th filoklsenia
> twn Arxaiwn Ellhnwn : Pragmati, ETSI HTAN ! Hmastan kai eimaste
> thelw na pisteuw filoksenos laos. Alla auto pes mou TI sxesh
> exei na kanei me to an mporouse na ginei kapoios Athinaios
> poliths h oxi.

Auto twra einai gia thn periodo tou xrisou aiona h apo tote pou
idrithike h Athina mexri pou eksafanistike ws polh kratos? Giati
mporei gia 100 xronia na htan ontws etsi opws ta les. Oxi barbaroi
gia polites (auto den simenei oti de menan barbaroi sthn Athina ws
metikoi), ok. To paradeigma pou edwsa omws htan pro dimokratikhs
epoxhs sthn Athina. Kai einai alithino kai prokalw opoiondhpote
thelei na apodiksei oti einai pseutiko. Kai sto katw katw, Ellada
den htan mono h Athina. Oi idioi oi Ellhnes legane tous Makedones
"barbarous". Ti simenei auto? Oti oi Makedones den htan Ellhnes? H
ousia einai oti oi arxaioi Ellhnes zousan eirinika me ksenous
metanastes sthn Ellada. Tous dexotan se periodo eirinhs kai akoma
kai se periodo polemou polles fores.

Episeis, ti enweis pragmatika kapoo biblio? To oti o Solon
politikografises ksenou, anaferetai apo ton ploutarxo.

"The law concerning naturalizing strangers is of doubtful
character; he permitted only those to be made free of Athens who
were in perpetual exile from their own country, or came with their
whole family to trade there; this he did, not to discourage
strangers, but rather to invite them to a permanent participation
in the privileges of the government; and, besides, he thought those
would prove the more faithful citizens who had been forced from
their own country, or voluntarily forsook it."

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/solon.html

Re paidia pros theou. Den eimai o GoofGoof na bgazw pramata apo to
mialo mou.

> Oson afora th filoklsenia twn Arxaiwn Ellhnwn : Pragmati,
> ETSI HTAN ! Hmastan kai eimaste thelw na pisteuw filoksenos laos.
> Alla auto pes mou TI sxesh exei na kanei me to an mporouse na ginei
> kapoios Athinaios poliths h oxi.

Kamia apolitos sxesh. Mono pou edw me exeis mperdepsei me ton
pilarino. Autos anefere to oti oi Athineoi den kanan ksenous
polites ws epixeirima pros apodiksh tou oti oi Arxaioi den dexotan
tous ksenous anamesa tous. Egw aplws efere ena paradeigma pou
dixnei oti ekane lathws kai stis dio theseis pou anefere.

Sxetika me ta ypoloipa pou anafereis, distyxws den exw ton xrono na
apanthsw se ola ksexorista. Sta perissotera symfonw, se alla
diafonw alla den einai kako dyo anthrwpoi na diafonoun arkei na mi
to blepoun ws prosopiko polemo ;)

Ws synopsh apla thelw na ksanaanaferw kati pou eipa kai pio prin. H
simaia simbolizei to kratos kai tous nomous tou. An o nomos tou
kratous leei oti o kalhteros mathiths prepei na kanei thn timh sthn
simaia kai na thn ferei, tote oti kai na einai o mathiths to kalo
pou tou thelw einai na sebastei tous nomous tou kratous kai na to
kanei. Authn ti stigmh o nomos tou kratous den apokliei ton
sigkekrimeno alodapo apo to na kanei thn timh sthn xwra mas kai na
ferei thn simaia. An o nomos htan alliws tote symfonw, na
ksesikonomastan. An se kapoion den aresei o nomos tote na kanei
auto pou tha eprepe na kanou oloi oi ellhnes. Na grapsei ston
bouleuth tou kai na tou pei oti autos o nomos den ton ekfrazei.

O idios eimai kata tou na ferei th simaia o kalhteros mathiths alla
mias kai autos einai o nomos kai mias kai to blepw san thn timh na
tin kanei o simeoforos sthn xwra kai oxi h simaia ston simeoforo,
den exw kanenan logo na apoklisw mh Ellhnes apo to na einai
perifanoi pou zoun sthn Ellada. Giati auto simenei na fereis thn
simaia enws kratous. Auta ta polla, distoixws o xronos me piezei
alliws tha egrafa perissotera.

Take care.

[gogu]

? "Hades" <areistogei...@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:4a725c2a.03111...@posting.google.com...

> First of all i will use Hellenic since i feel more comfortable with it
> and the people involved into this thread are Hellenes, so.
>
> Prwta ap' ola na sas ekshghsw oti o titlos einai allhgorikos kai OXI
> prosblhtikos, ;-) . Afora thn ypothesh Tsenai(aman pia) thn Ellhnikh
> shmaia kai tous metanastes. Edw kai kati bdomades trwgwsaste metaksy
> sas. Nai esas ennow, Allotrios, Pularinos kai gogu.

??? Me eides na syzhtw kati parapanw? Aplws eipa thn gnwmh moy kai afhsa
toys alloys na milhsoyn. Den empleksa se kanenan parapanw dialogo peri ths
oysias. Ara mallon gia ton allotrio 8a 8eleis na peis.
Telika den 8ewrw oti to 8ema exei kanena parapanw endiaferon. Hdh ely8h kai
nomika: h tropologia einai ka8'odon gia thn boylh kai apo to epomeno etos h
e8nikothta den 8a paizei kanenan rolo sto poios 8a shkwnei thn shmaia! O
nomos einai nomos kai opoioy den toy aresei as ton allaksei (dhmokratika,
oxi me ta tanks kai dolofonies opws o Pi-pi-larinos o fasisto-xoyntaios
malakas 8a h8ele).

Ena mikro reminder omws: h Manianh einai Ellhnida "genhma 8rema" h estw sto
aima?... Oxi!
O Kahiasvili einai Ellhnas "genhma 8rema"?... Oxi!
Kai omws den akoysa tipota gia aytoys poy shkwsan thn Ellhnikh shmaia...
Gia na mhn piasw merikoys alloys "Ellhnes" a8lhtes...

Ara, mas aresoyn monon oi ksenoi poy bazoyn ta gkol h shkwnoyn ta polla barh
kai oxi oi "alloi"...
Ayto sto biblio moy legetai "epilektikos ratsismos" kai einai xeiroteros kai
poly poio anohtos apo ton allo, ton ka8aro kai genikeymeno ratsismo.

Oso gia ton titlo, ti na pw...
Allhgorikos kseallhgorikos...

--
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"Hades" <areistogei...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4a725c2a.03111...@posting.google.com...
[snip]

> Afora thn ypothesh Tsenai(aman pia) thn Ellhnikh
> shmaia kai tous metanastes. Edw kai kati bdomades trwgwsaste metaksy
> sas. Nai esas ennow, Allotrios, Pularinos kai gogu.

To thema einai h metanasteusi kai oxi anagastika o Tsenai.

[snip

> Parathrhsa oti KANEIS ek twn Allotrios kai gogu DEN sxoliase ena allo
> arthro mou pou eixe titlo : " All the truth about Tsenai " Mono o
> Pilarinos ekane ena thetiko mikro sxolio.

Kai kanenas den sxoliase ta duo arthra me titlo: "Immigration and Hellas
(Albanians)". Asfalos me egkires plirofories den ginete o "dialogos" pou
exoun sinithisi oi gogu kai allotrios. Oti xazomara katebasi to mialoudaki
tous to parousiazoun dixos kanena stixio.

> Einai eukolo file Allotrie na " puroboleis " ton
> Pularino, mia kai aytos exei th " stampa " tou neo-fasista-xountikou
> kai etsi eukola mporeis na tou prosapseis ta eks amakshs.

Kai pios akribos me "stamparise" "neo-fasista-xountiko"? An psaxnis gia
fasistes kai xountikous, pige kai bres tous sto kinoboulio (h sta kommatika
grafia).

> Den kanw to
> dhkhgoro tou Pylarinou, pros theou. DEN mou to " zhthse " alla
> epipleon einai ikanos na uperaspistei ton eayto tou kai tis idees tou.
> DEN symfwnw me polles apopseis tou kai thewrw oti oi xountikoi htan
> POULHMENA TOMARIA h aplws HLITHIOI ! TELEIA KAI PAULA ! Egw krinw ek
> tou apotelesmatos kai to aptelesma leei oti oi Tourkoi me DIKH tous
> aformh katexoun 30 xronia twra thn Kupro.

Para3eno mou fenete oti o Papadopoulos, o Pattakos, h o Makarezos efthinonte
gia to Kypriako! Pios ipograpse tis simfonies tis Zirixis kai Londinou? Pios
h pioi diakibernousan ti xora to 1963 (pou efarmostike h "prasini grami") h
to kalokairi tou 1974? Pia "DIKH tous aformh" prokalese tin isboli tis
Kyrpou?

> Epish den sygxwrw ta
> basanhsthria kai tous ektopismous twn aristerwn kai tosa alla.

Auta eginan PRIN tin epanastasi tou 1967. Gia pes mas, gia pio logo brethike
o Karamanlis sto Parisi to 1963 (se "auto-e3oria")?

> Ayta
> gia na mhn me "xarakthrisete" "eukola" xountiko, Allotrie.

Kai me tetia parapliroforisi pou ginete apo ta kommatoskyla, kalitera
dolofonos para "xountikos".

> Twra sto
> thema ths shmaias: Giati den mphkes ston kopo na sxoliaseis to post
> mou Allotrie?

Ti thes na sxoliasi? O tipos pisteuei oti osi polemisan gia tin simaia to
ekanan gia na kanoun "maintain their living standards or to improve them"!

[snip]

> Eipes oti oi Arxaioi Ellhnes dexontan se OLLA ws ISOUS
> tous metanastes. Pes mou, Allotrie, mporousan na paroun meros stous
> Olumpiakous Agwnes ???? Thn YPSISTH ekdhlwsh tou Ellhnismou ? H
> apanthsh einai : OXI.
> Mporousan, allotrie, na ginoun Spartiates Polites ??: OXI. Kai Tosa
> alla.

Kai oxi mono auta. Ta pio prosfata den ta agagnorizei (sfages kata Tourkon,
Albanon, Boulgaron, kok)?

> Oson afora ayta pou eipes gia tous Athinaious: An diabaseis
> PRAGMATIKA kapoio biblio kai oxi knena apospasma apo kapou sto
> Internet, tote tha deis oti Athinaios poliths me PLHRH POLITIKA
> DIKAIWMATA DEN mporouse na ginei Barbaros para MONON allos Ellhn !!

Profanos oute gia ton Perikli gnorizei! Kai oi duo goneis eprepe na'tan
Athineoi gia na apoktisi enas politika dikeomata (diladi na einai politis).

> Katalabaineis pisteuw : OXI Allodapos-Barbaros, alla mono Ellhn! Oson
> afora th filoklsenia twn Arxaiwn Ellhnwn : Pragmati, ETSI HTAN !
> Hmastan kai eimaste thelw na pisteuw filoksenos laos. Alla auto pes
> mou TI sxesh exei na kanei me to an mporouse na ginei kapoios
> Athinaios poliths h oxi.

Kai akoma perisotero, ti exei auto na kanei me ton simerino barbaro isbolea!

> ?????? Allo to ENA kai allo to ALLO! Einai san ayto pou lete gia thn
> shmaia: Ti sto kalo exei na kanei h ELLHNIKH SHMAIA kai to SYMBOLLO
> tou ELLHNISMOU me thn BATHMOLOGIA?????? Pes mou TI?! TIPOTA APOLUTWS !

Ti h simea kai ti ena aftokolito pokimon?! Toulaxiston etsi to blepoune oi
"proodeutikoi".

> Den kserw thn hlikia sou alla otan phgaina egw sxolio tis shmaies tis
> " efere" ksereis poios ???
> AYTOS ME TO YPSHLOTERO HTHOS KAI FRONHMA ! Kai OXI th megaluterh
> bathmologia!

Kai ego nomiza oti htan to mpoi! H mipos pirane prefa oti hmoun "xountikos"
kai "fasistas" kai olo emena mou tin edinan?

[snip]

> Den to blepete oti theloun na prokalesoun thn PLHRH APAKSIWSH ths
> Ellhnikhs Koinwnias oi KARGIOLHDES pou mas KUBERNOUN???

Stamata re! Tetia akribos leo kai go gia tous mprizololatres kai ta
kommatoskyla, kai me bgalane "xountiko".

[snip]

> Kai kati akoma, Allotrie: H boulh twn Efhbwn
> ksereis th pshfhsma ebgale ton Semptembrh pou mas perase??? Oti "Th
> shmaia DEN mporoun na thn shkwsoun ALLODAPOI mathites para mono
> ELLHNES!

H pliopsifia ton Ellinon - 73.8% (basi dimosieumatos tis kathimerinis) exei
arnitiki antilipsi gia tous "metanastes"/allodapous.

[snip]

> Kai pes mou: Oi
> KARGIOLHDES "proodeutikoi" kai oi "pseuto-aristeroi" oi politikoi, pou
> OLLES tis alles fores "KOPTONTAI" TOSO polu gia tis apofaseis ths
> boulhs twn Efhbwn, ayth th fora DEN KANANE KAMIA APOLUTWS
> ANAFORA!!OUTE TA GAMHMENA MME!! Oti tous sumfairei ta KATHIKIA TOU
> KERATA! Ayto pws to krineis, Allotrie??? DEN einai FASISTIKO??? To na
> parousiazoume OTI OPWS kai OPOTE mas aresei????? Asfalws kai einai!

Poli sosta! Kai auto akribos simbenei kai me to Kypriako (kai oute kan
anaferome gia tin period 67-73). Pote telika tha ani3oun auton ton "fakelo"
gia na doume oloi tin alithia? H HPA kai to HB siga-siga lene tin alithia,
kai blepoume pentakathara oti den eixan xeri stin Epanastasi tou 1967.
Blepoume omos oti ONTOS eixan magali epiroi sta megala kommata kai to
palati.

> Den einai "XOUNTIKO"??? ASFALWS KAI EINAI!! DEN einai SXEDIASMENO???
> ASFALWS KAI EINAI!!! GIATI?? Ayto tha to afhsw na to krineis esy, file
> mou. Den katalabainw POU to briskete to paralogo! Ti sto daimona exei
> na kanei h "upshlh bathmologia" me thn Shmaia??? Einai PRWTOS
> mathiths?? Wraia kurie, TIMHSE TON(opws ginotan kai ginetai akoma)!
> Dwse tou ARISTEIA! Dwse tou EPATHLA! Xrhmatika kai mh, alla OXI thn
> SHMAIA! DEN einai BRABEIO! DEN einai EPATHLO! Thn YPOTIMAME OLOI otan
> thn katantame ena aplo EPARTHLO, ena aplo "pani".

Giati na tous dosoume kan brabeio? H dorean ekpedeusi den tous ftani? Telika
tha paroun kai mia thesi panepistimiou apo Ellina...

> DEN to
> katalabainete??? Ametrhtoi PETHANAN h AKRWTHRIASTHKAN gia ayto
> to..."EPATHLO"????? DEN nomizw oti to eblepan san epathlo h brabeio.
> An htan etsi, file Allotrie, DEN tha edinan th Zwh tous, ta xeria tous
> kai ta podia tous.

Simfona me ton Allotrio (ton "expert" se themata Ellinismou), autoi pethanan
kai akrotiriastikan gia prosopika simferonta! Des to arthro me to
Message-ID: <MPG.1a0c81125...@news.demon.co.uk>.

[snip]

> DEN exw problhma me tous ENNOMOUS kai OXI PARANOMOUS metanastes, alla

Kai poioi einai oi "ennomoi"? Oi proin paranomoi pou tous edose to PASOK
xartia (an kai o nomos orizei tin filakisi kai apelasi tous)?

[snip]

> Kai den pisteuw na
> eisai ratsisths pou den dineis thn gynaika sou apo dw ki apo kei etsi?
> ;-))(kai ligo xioumor)

Den ton gnorizeis auto! O Allotrios thelei "evolution" kai an kanei h ginaka
tou paidio mono me auton, mporei na exoume "in breeding" (dikies tou kotsa..
ee.. filosofies).

> Twra kati allo gia to oti "Oi Ellhnes den kanoun orismenes doulies".
> Re pallhkaria, stis ELIES kai sta AMPLELIA, stis OIKODOMES kai sta
> KARABIA POIOI douleuan prina apo MOLIS 15 xronia?????

Ti psaxneis tora me autous? Exoume kai oikonomika stixia, alla ti sxesi exi
h logiki me tis apopsis ton "proodeutikon"?

[snip]

> Na pw kai kati liga gia to egklhma. Lene oti oi Allodapoi genika den
> prokalesan aukshsh twn egklhmatwn.

Pios anideos to leei auto? Asfalos den tha kitane ta stixia pou parexei to
ipourgio dimosias ta3is.

> Akouste: Apo ta EKSAKRIBWMENA
> EGKLHMATA to 50% twn ANTHRWPOKTONIWN
> tis exoun diapraksei Allodapoi, dhladh peripou to 10% tou plhthusmou!!

Nomizo oti einai to 60%. Auto den exei pantos megali simasia. Simasia exei
ti PROSFEROUN stin Ellada, ton Ellinismo, kai ston Ellina. Kai an kai
gnorizo arketa kala ta ARNITIKA, as mou pei kapios that "thetika" (kai as
min kolisoun sta "koultouriarika").

[snip]

> San na mhn eftane ayto statistika tou 2003
> deixnoun oti ENAS stous TREIS LATHROMETANASTES DEN ERGAZETAI!!

Ti les!? O diarixtis, o emporas narkotikon, kai oloi oi alloi tis "nuxtas"
douleia kanoun!

[snip]

> Oso gia sena gogu sorry pou den anaferthika alla kuriws exeis
> "proswpika" me ton Pylarino opote ti na pw??

Ti "prosopika"? Den einai "prosopo" o gogu, mia anonymi aderfi einai pou
poula mouri. Ton eidame stin pra3i.

> Kai esena Pylarine mporei
> na mhn moirazomai tis idees sou alla auto den paei na pei tipota.

Mexri stigmis parousiases akribos tis thesis pou exo sto thema.

> Elpizw na mhn se proseballa pouthena.

Kai na me prosebales den tha sou klafto, opos kanoun kapioi "magkes" tou
glukou nerou.

> A, twra thumithika pou mou eixes
> pei gia to an hmoun fantaros sta Imia, nai hmoun sthn aeroporia, den
> me kalesan gia epistrateush, hmoun "mesa", ;-). Hmoun se mia apo tis 6
> MSEP: Moira Stathmou Elenxou kai Proeidopoihshs. Ws hlektronikos,
> ksereis puknwtes, kollhthria, sxedia, ktl, ;-).
> Plhroforiaka exoume 4 MKSE Moires Kentrikou Stathmou Elenxou 8 MSEP
> kai 6 SA Stathmous Anaforas. Synolika 18 Epigeia Radar kaluptoun thn
> epikrateia. Ta 15-16 apo ayta exoun apokleistika thn eythynei na
> "parakolouthoun" tous "filous" mas tous Moggolous.

Me tetios orous (idieteros to "Moggolous"), pos na min se perasoune gia
"fasista" kai "ratsisti?! :)

> As opsete o
> kathikhs o Giorgakhs! An eixe o kosmos estw kai mia MIKRH IDEA gia to
> TI PRAGMATIKA ginetai panw apo to Aigaio mas pisteuw oti ta pragmata
> tha htan alliws. Alla "koimizoun" thn koinh gnwmh me "arton kai
> theamata". Oute o Goebbels den tha ta kataferne kalutera. Ksereis ti
> paei na pei 2000 Peripou parabiaseiss to 6mhno???? Asto kalutera. Isws
> sto mellon milhsw pio polu gia ayta...alla den mporw na pw kai
> polla...katalabaineis...;-).

Se katalabeno apolita. Eimai malista pilotos kai mixanikos aeroskafon, kai
eixa dosi gia tin Ikaron prin arketa xronia. Alla blepeis, ego eimai "sapio
kreas" gia autous pou kibernoun, alla o Tsenai (kai ta alla paidia
allodapon) a3izoun isis metaxirisis!

> Oson afora to kentriko thema gia th shmaia, th lathrometanasteush ktl,
> sas entharinw na kanoume mia koubenta POLITISMENH afhnwntas EKSW tous
> eautous mas. Dhladh: Allotrie, gogu Pylarine kai OPOIOS allos thelei
> einai EYPROSDEKTOS!

Ontos. Kai signomi gia tous latinikous xaraktires kai ton tropo pou tous
xrisimopio.

[snip]

> Na'ste kala kai REALISTES oso to dunaton pio polu,
>
> -Hades
> apo thn synnefiasmenh Athina.

Dionysios Pilarinos en Nea Yorkh.

[Allotrios]

In article <68wsb.156404$pT1.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>, Dionysios
Pilarinos dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org stated:

> Simfona me ton Allotrio (ton "expert" se themata Ellinismou), autoi pethanan
> kai akrotiriastikan gia prosopika simferonta! Des to arthro me to
> Message-ID: <MPG.1a0c81125...@news.demon.co.uk>.

Mathe na diabazeis prwta kai meta na anafereis to onoma mou mazi
me tis blakeis pou nomizeis oti diabases.

[Hades]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<68wsb.156404$pT1.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

> "Hades" <areistogei...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4a725c2a.03111...@posting.google.com...
> [snip]
> > Afora thn ypothesh Tsenai(aman pia) thn Ellhnikh
> > shmaia kai tous metanastes. Edw kai kati bdomades trwgwsaste metaksy
> > sas. Nai esas ennow, Allotrios, Pularinos kai gogu.
>
> To thema einai h metanasteusi kai oxi anagastika o Tsenai.
>

Edw tha hthela na sou pw oti to thema einai h "LATHRO-METANASTEUSH"
kai OXI h "METANASTEUSH". "METANASTEUSH" yphrxe kai tha YPARXEI oso
yparxoun ANTRWPOI oi opoioi "DYNATAI" na "METAKINHTHOUN", ;-) Allo h
NOMIMH metanasteush kai allo h LATHRO-metanasteush. Etsi den einai??
Exw kai egw syggeneis sthn amerikh kuriws alla kai sthn Aystralia. MHN
tous PYROBOLOUME OLOUS ADIAKRITWS. Swsta??

> [snip
> > Parathrhsa oti KANEIS ek twn Allotrios kai gogu DEN sxoliase ena allo
> > arthro mou pou eixe titlo : " All the truth about Tsenai " Mono o
> > Pilarinos ekane ena thetiko mikro sxolio.
>
> Kai kanenas den sxoliase ta duo arthra me titlo: "Immigration and Hellas
> (Albanians)". Asfalos me egkires plirofories den ginete o "dialogos" pou
> exoun sinithisi oi gogu kai allotrios. Oti xazomara katebasi to mialoudaki
> tous to parousiazoun dixos kanena stixio.
>

To parathrhsa kai egw ayto. Isws na mhn ta eidan...Isws na ta ekrinan
"Polu Challenging" kai na mhn mphkan ston kopo. Isws na mhn eixan
xrono..
Den mporw na kserw...Einai krima omws...Tha EPREPE na ta sxoliasoun
OLOI oi Ellhnes pou pairnoun thesh sto thema ayto. Ostosw den
aspazomai to oti lene xazomares...apla DIAFWNEITE(diafonoume) se
orismenes apopseis! Den einai kako ayto.

> > Einai eukolo file Allotrie na " puroboleis " ton
> > Pularino, mia kai aytos exei th " stampa " tou neo-fasista-xountikou
> > kai etsi eukola mporeis na tou prosapseis ta eks amakshs.
>
> Kai pios akribos me "stamparise" "neo-fasista-xountiko"? An psaxnis gia
> fasistes kai xountikous, pige kai bres tous sto kinoboulio (h sta kommatika
> grafia).
>

Ypo mia ennoia exeis dikio...Den mou fainetai ta KOPROSKULA pou
lumainontai thn Ellas na exoun polu perissoteres euaisthisies apo tous
"xountikous". ;-) Pantws egw "tampeles" den bazw se kanenan! Oute se
esena oute se KANENAN ALLO! Krinw tous PANTES apo th domimenh skepsh
pou mporoun na "paragoun" kai apo auta pou exoun na poun.

> > Den kanw to
> > dhkhgoro tou Pylarinou, pros theou. DEN mou to " zhthse " alla
> > epipleon einai ikanos na uperaspistei ton eayto tou kai tis idees tou.
> > DEN symfwnw me polles apopseis tou kai thewrw oti oi xountikoi htan
> > POULHMENA TOMARIA h aplws HLITHIOI ! TELEIA KAI PAULA ! Egw krinw ek
> > tou apotelesmatos kai to aptelesma leei oti oi Tourkoi me DIKH tous
> > aformh katexoun 30 xronia twra thn Kupro.
>
> Para3eno mou fenete oti o Papadopoulos, o Pattakos, h o Makarezos efthinonte
> gia to Kypriako! Pios ipograpse tis simfonies tis Zirixis kai Londinou? Pios
> h pioi diakibernousan ti xora to 1963 (pou efarmostike h "prasini grami") h
> to kalokairi tou 1974? Pia "DIKH tous aformh" prokalese tin isboli tis
> Kyrpou?
>

Ela twra re file...POIOS PHRE THN "TAKSIARXIA-MERARXIA tou Gewrgiou
Papandreou???????? Den htan oi xountiko-malkes me IQ-radikiou?? Ela
twra re file.....DES TA PRAGMATA A-N-T-I-K-E-I-M-E-N-I-K-A! Oson afora
to IQ tou Pattakou.....H PATATA exei pio polu muallo! ;-) Oso gia thn
aformh thn edwsan oi IDIOI PANILITHIOI POU DEN MPOROUSAN NA MOIRASOUN
SANO SE 2 GAIDAROUS! Mhn pw gia thn epistrateush giati.... ;-)

> > Epish den sygxwrw ta
> > basanhsthria kai tous ektopismous twn aristerwn kai tosa alla.
>
> Auta eginan PRIN tin epanastasi tou 1967. Gia pes mas, gia pio logo brethike
> o Karamanlis sto Parisi to 1963 (se "auto-e3oria")?
>

Giati ton "efage" ayto pou o idios prin "eglufe": to palati. Alla htan
afelhs pou nomise oti to "palati" tha ton afhne na kybernisei. Tespa,
mporei na ginontousan kai tote alla OXI SE TOSO MEGALO BATHMO!!
Pisteuw na symfwneis oti h Xounta to PARAXESE to pragma! Kai gia
katse: Epeidh ayta "ginontousan" opws les *TI* tous dikaiologei na ta
"synexisoun"??? Ara ta idia "SKATA" einai kai autoi kai xeirotera!
Hksera anthrwpous file pou mexri kai ANIKANOUS tous katesthsan ta
TOMARIA!! TOUS ESPASAN TA AXIDIA STH KURIOLEKSIA!! Asta... ;-(

> > Ayta
> > gia na mhn me "xarakthrisete" "eukola" xountiko, Allotrie.
>
> Kai me tetia parapliroforisi pou ginete apo ta kommatoskyla, kalitera
> dolofonos para "xountikos".
>

Gia thn plhroforhsh den exeis adiko... alla gia to "dolofonos"....

> > Twra sto
> > thema ths shmaias: Giati den mphkes ston kopo na sxoliaseis to post
> > mou Allotrie?
>
> Ti thes na sxoliasi? O tipos pisteuei oti osi polemisan gia tin simaia to
> ekanan gia na kanoun "maintain their living standards or to improve them"!
>

Se ayto tou eipa kai egw oti den symfwnw. Ti "maintain their living
standards or to improve them"!?? O pappous mou katw sthn Pelloponnhso
den eixe na "faei" pou lene. AGROTHS htan kai einai...kai ta MISA tou
adelfia eixan paei Amerikh. Plaka mou kanei? Einai alla pragmata POLU
PARAPANW apo thn "kaloperash". An noiazomastan mono gia thn
"kaloperash" den tha diaferame se TIPOTA apo ta...zwa! Etsi den
einai??(Gia ayto kai oi politikoi mas einai "ZWA ORTHIA"! ;-)

> [snip]
> > Eipes oti oi Arxaioi Ellhnes dexontan se OLLA ws ISOUS
> > tous metanastes. Pes mou, Allotrie, mporousan na paroun meros stous
> > Olumpiakous Agwnes ???? Thn YPSISTH ekdhlwsh tou Ellhnismou ? H
> > apanthsh einai : OXI.
> > Mporousan, allotrie, na ginoun Spartiates Polites ??: OXI. Kai Tosa
> > alla.
>
> Kai oxi mono auta. Ta pio prosfata den ta agagnorizei (sfages kata Tourkon,
> Albanon, Boulgaron, kok)?
>

SFAGES????Ennoeis to 1821, Balkanikous kai alles periodous??? Gine pio
sygkekrimenos.

> > Oson afora ayta pou eipes gia tous Athinaious: An diabaseis
> > PRAGMATIKA kapoio biblio kai oxi knena apospasma apo kapou sto
> > Internet, tote tha deis oti Athinaios poliths me PLHRH POLITIKA
> > DIKAIWMATA DEN mporouse na ginei Barbaros para MONON allos Ellhn !!
>
> Profanos oute gia ton Perikli gnorizei! Kai oi duo goneis eprepe na'tan
> Athineoi gia na apoktisi enas politika dikeomata (diladi na einai politis).
>

Gia ton aiwna to Periklh ta kserw. Alla tha to psaksw kai gia Solona
epoxh. Pantws nomizw oti o Solon otan ellege gia "allodapous" ennoouse
"allous Ellhnes" kai oxi px, Perses-Foinikes. Alla tha to psaksw gia
na mhn eimai apolutos. Eks allou, den paizei kai kanena rolo. Milame
gia NOMIMOUS metanastes thn shmeron epoxh.

> > Katalabaineis pisteuw : OXI Allodapos-Barbaros, alla mono Ellhn! Oson
> > afora th filoklsenia twn Arxaiwn Ellhnwn : Pragmati, ETSI HTAN !
> > Hmastan kai eimaste thelw na pisteuw filoksenos laos. Alla auto pes
> > mou TI sxesh exei na kanei me to an mporouse na ginei kapoios
> > Athinaios poliths h oxi.
>
> Kai akoma perisotero, ti exei auto na kanei me ton simerino barbaro isbolea!
>

Barbaro eisbolea?? Ton..."Tsenai"?? Tous "Moggolous"..Dieukrinise se
parakalw.

> > ?????? Allo to ENA kai allo to ALLO! Einai san ayto pou lete gia thn
> > shmaia: Ti sto kalo exei na kanei h ELLHNIKH SHMAIA kai to SYMBOLLO
> > tou ELLHNISMOU me thn BATHMOLOGIA?????? Pes mou TI?! TIPOTA APOLUTWS !
>
> Ti h simea kai ti ena aftokolito pokimon?! Toulaxiston etsi to blepoune oi
> "proodeutikoi".
>

Proodeutikoi=PSEUTO-Aristeroi=TEMPELXANADES tou KERATA=DHMOSIO=ARALIKH
kai "agios o theos". TROMARA TOUS TA KOPROSKULA!

> > Den kserw thn hlikia sou alla otan phgaina egw sxolio tis shmaies tis
> > " efere" ksereis poios ???
> > AYTOS ME TO YPSHLOTERO HTHOS KAI FRONHMA ! Kai OXI th megaluterh
> > bathmologia!
>
> Kai ego nomiza oti htan to mpoi! H mipos pirane prefa oti hmoun "xountikos"
> kai "fasistas" kai olo emena mou tin edinan?
>

Epaize rolo kai to MPOI, to "PARASTHMA" pou lene alla kai h DIAGWGH
kai to HTHOS!!DEN ginotan shmaioforos aytos pou den eixe ARISTH
diagwgh.

> [snip]
> > Den to blepete oti theloun na prokalesoun thn PLHRH APAKSIWSH ths
> > Ellhnikhs Koinwnias oi KARGIOLHDES pou mas KUBERNOUN???
>
> Stamata re! Tetia akribos leo kai go gia tous mprizololatres kai ta
> kommatoskyla, kai me bgalane "xountiko".
>

;-) Pisteuw oti se lene "XOUNTIKO" giati *AKOMA* yposthrizeis ta
remalia me IQ-PATTAKOU, ;-) ) An re file les "Zhtw h 21 Apriliou" ti
thes na se poune??
;-)

> [snip]
> > Kai kati akoma, Allotrie: H boulh twn Efhbwn
> > ksereis th pshfhsma ebgale ton Semptembrh pou mas perase??? Oti "Th
> > shmaia DEN mporoun na thn shkwsoun ALLODAPOI mathites para mono
> > ELLHNES!
>
> H pliopsifia ton Ellinon - 73.8% (basi dimosieumatos tis kathimerinis) exei
> arnitiki antilipsi gia tous "metanastes"/allodapous.
>

To kserw kai egw auto kai to zw KATHIMERINA! Asfalws den einai sxedon
OLOI oi Ellhnes "xountikoi"?? Etsi den einai?? Kai DIKAIWS o ELLHNAS
"fobatai"! Re sy edw apeilhsan filo mou Kathighth me STILETO epeidh
afhse sthn idia taksh enan Albano filo tous!!!! E, re kai na hmoun
ekei....Tespa, oi Ellhnes xarh sthn "bohthia" twn MOUNOPANWN pou
exoume sto MPOURDELLO pou legetai boulh, exoun arxisei na FOBOUNTAI!
Kai opoios fobatai...NA TON FOBASAI! Dhladh an o filos mou eixe kana
"sideriko" kai tous thn mpoumpounize ti tha legane??? HTAN treis! kai
htan enas! Ekei mas ftasane...na theloume na paroume to nomo sta xeria
mas...An h POLITEIA DEN SOU PAREXEI ASFALEIA ti tha KANEIS???? Etsi
DEN kathgorw th syntriptikh pleiopshfia twn Ellhnwn pou den GOUSTAREI
tous LATHROMETANASTES(kai tous metanastes genika, tous pairnei kai
autous h...mpala!) Pali kala pou den eimai gunaika... ;-)

> [snip]
> > Kai pes mou: Oi
> > KARGIOLHDES "proodeutikoi" kai oi "pseuto-aristeroi" oi politikoi, pou
> > OLLES tis alles fores "KOPTONTAI" TOSO polu gia tis apofaseis ths
> > boulhs twn Efhbwn, ayth th fora DEN KANANE KAMIA APOLUTWS
> > ANAFORA!!OUTE TA GAMHMENA MME!! Oti tous sumfairei ta KATHIKIA TOU
> > KERATA! Ayto pws to krineis, Allotrie??? DEN einai FASISTIKO??? To na
> > parousiazoume OTI OPWS kai OPOTE mas aresei????? Asfalws kai einai!
>
> Poli sosta! Kai auto akribos simbenei kai me to Kypriako (kai oute kan
> anaferome gia tin period 67-73). Pote telika tha ani3oun auton ton "fakelo"
> gia na doume oloi tin alithia? H HPA kai to HB siga-siga lene tin alithia,
> kai blepoume pentakathara oti den eixan xeri stin Epanastasi tou 1967.
> Blepoume omos oti ONTOS eixan magali epiroi sta megala kommata kai to
> palati.
>

Edw diafonw RIZIKA! Yparxoun egrafa pou syndeoun AMESA tous xountikous
me IQ-PATTAKOU me th CIA!!!! Oso gia tous fakelous...Einai thema twn
Amerikanwn...Pote tha tous "shkwthei"...den mporw na kserw.Pantws gia
na ksereis o Arapakhs kai oi alloi xountikoi arxhgoi twn epiteliws
MAZI me tous xountikous synetelesan stn PRODOSIA! Htan prodosia!! Kai
epishs GIATI den milane oi Xountikoi???? Ti kryboun tooosa xronia???
Prin h dikaiologia tous htan oti den milane gia na mhn "kseshkwthoun"
oi Ellhnes kai "fygoun" apo to Dytiko "mplok" kai pane sto
"anatoliko". Twra pou DEN uparxei to...Anatoliko GIATI den milane???
Na sou pw egw?? Giati exoun XESMENH th FWLIA tous!

> > Den einai "XOUNTIKO"??? ASFALWS KAI EINAI!! DEN einai SXEDIASMENO???
> > ASFALWS KAI EINAI!!! GIATI?? Ayto tha to afhsw na to krineis esy, file
> > mou. Den katalabainw POU to briskete to paralogo! Ti sto daimona exei
> > na kanei h "upshlh bathmologia" me thn Shmaia??? Einai PRWTOS
> > mathiths?? Wraia kurie, TIMHSE TON(opws ginotan kai ginetai akoma)!
> > Dwse tou ARISTEIA! Dwse tou EPATHLA! Xrhmatika kai mh, alla OXI thn
> > SHMAIA! DEN einai BRABEIO! DEN einai EPATHLO! Thn YPOTIMAME OLOI otan
> > thn katantame ena aplo EPARTHLO, ena aplo "pani".
>
> Giati na tous dosoume kan brabeio? H dorean ekpedeusi den tous ftani? Telika
> tha paroun kai mia thesi panepistimiou apo Ellina...

Giati yphrksan "kaloi apodektes ths ELLHNIKH PAIDIAS", gia auto prepei
na tous ANAGNWRIZOUME thn prospathia tous giati einai DYSKOLO se mia
ksenh xwra na aristeuseis, etsi den einai???? Alla OXI! th SHMAIA!
Oson afora ta panephsthmia....Me thn idia logikoi oi EKATONTADES
XILIADES ellhnes pou spoudasan kai spoudazoun sto ekswteriko ti
einai?? Oi antallages thesewn sta panepisthmia kai h prosfora thesewn
einai POLU SWSTH! Skepsou mono oti osoi ksenoi foitoun edw tha einai
kaloi presbeytes tou Ellhnikou pneumatos stis xwres tous, etsi den
einai?? Pws tha mas "gnwrisoun" diaforetika??? Pws tha matoun thn
Ellhnikh Paidia???
Akou kai mia istorioula dikh mou...Loipon, eblepa prin apo kana xrono
mia ekpomplh se ena *MIKRO* kai OXI MEGALO(exei shmasia) idiwtiko
kanali. Eblepa enan diko mas "leuko" na milaei me ena "mauro"
afrikano. Kai ekei pou perimena o Afrikanos na milhsei mia Afrikanikh
diallekto h toulaxiston Aggllika, mantepse ti bghke apo to stoma tou.
ELLHNIKA!!! Mama mia! pou lene kai oi Italoi! Molis synhrtha apo to
politismiko "shock" den mporeis na fantasteis th xara mou pou eblepa
oti kapoios toso diaforetikos apo auto pou synhthisame na blepoume
kathimerina milouse ELLHNIKA!! Kai polu kala malista!!! Gia na mh sta
pollulogw, htan kapoios pou poulouse ELLHNIKA BIBLIA FILOSOFIAS KAI
OXI MONO(Sokrath, Platwna, Aristotelh, ka) sth NEA YORKH!!! STHN
AMERIKH!!! Kai me parapono ksereis ti elege? Oti den yparxoun ELLHNES
PLEON STH NEA YORKH POU NA POULANE TETOIA BIBLIA!!! Pes mou esy twra:
AYTOS O ANTHRWPOS DEN EINAI PIO POLU ELLHNAS APO OLOUS EMAS????? Aytos
DIADIDEI TON ELLHNIKO TO ELLHNIKO MEGALEIO KAI THN ELLHNIKH PAIDEIA
KAI EMEIS TI KANOUME??? Mallon oxi kati antaksio! Pou einai oi
"ELLHNARES" ths Neas Yorkhs h oi dikoi mas??? Anti gia emas(ta
koproskula sth sygkekrimenh periptwsh), AYTOS STEKETAI EKEI KAI
DIADIDEI TO ELLHNIKO PNEUMA!! Aytos gia mena file den einai Mia fora
Ellhnas....EINAI EKATO!!!!!!!! Kai gia akoma mia fora to kratos twn
NEO-GRAIKULWN KOPROSKULADWN ELAMPSE DIA THS APOUSIA TOU!! Etsi einai
file... ;-)

>
> > DEN to
> > katalabainete??? Ametrhtoi PETHANAN h AKRWTHRIASTHKAN gia ayto
> > to..."EPATHLO"????? DEN nomizw oti to eblepan san epathlo h brabeio.
> > An htan etsi, file Allotrie, DEN tha edinan th Zwh tous, ta xeria tous
> > kai ta podia tous.
>
> Simfona me ton Allotrio (ton "expert" se themata Ellinismou), autoi pethanan
> kai akrotiriastikan gia prosopika simferonta! Des to arthro me to
> Message-ID: <MPG.1a0c81125...@news.demon.co.uk>.
>

Eipame oti edw diafwnw RIZIKA kai tha tou to ekshghsw mesa apo thn
koubenta pou tha kanoume. KRATOS kai ELLHNISMOS den exoun KAMIA
APOLUTWS SXESH!
Me thn idia logikh oi Poleis-krath den htan Ellhnikes! HMARTON!

>
> [snip]
> > DEN exw problhma me tous ENNOMOUS kai OXI PARANOMOUS metanastes, alla
>
> Kai poioi einai oi "ennomoi"? Oi proin paranomoi pou tous edose to PASOK
> xartia (an kai o nomos orizei tin filakisi kai apelasi tous)?
>

Toulaxiston as meinoume se autous kai OXI na dexthoume kai allous,
koita: Aytoi pouy exoun "prasinh karta" plhrwnoun Eforia, IKA, kai
sthrizoun ta tamia. Ara einai thetiko gia thn Ellada. Ase pou den
mporei to kathe afentiko na tous exei ANASFALISTOUS kai etsi den
ginetai na rixnoun "hmeromhsthia". Opote ginontai antagwnistikoi kai
oi Ellhnes, swsta?
Omws DEN mporoume na dexthoume allous giati: 1on) Hdh 1 stous 3
allodapous *DEN* ERGAZETAI, me apotelesma h anergia stous allodapous
na einai MEGALUTERH apo ayth tou ntopio pluthusmou kai 2on:) Tous
kanoume KAKO!!! PWS tha zhsoun an den exoun doulia??? H tha
EKSATHLIWTHOUN H Tha katafugoun sto egklhma! Metanastes nai, alla me
METRO kai N-O-M-I-M-A!

> [snip]
> > Kai den pisteuw na
> > eisai ratsisths pou den dineis thn gynaika sou apo dw ki apo kei etsi?
> > ;-))(kai ligo xioumor)
>
> Den ton gnorizeis auto! O Allotrios thelei "evolution" kai an kanei h ginaka
> tou paidio mono me auton, mporei na exoume "in breeding" (dikies tou kotsa..
> ee.. filosofies).
>

Twra tha sou pw kamia koubenta... O Allotrios, *EIDIKA* *AYTOS*, einai
apo kalh "PASTA" anthrwpou! Kai na mou to thumitheis. *SPANIA* peftw
eksw se anthrwpous alla apo ton tropo grafhs tou blepw oti einai ena
polu metriopathes-metrhmeno kai eugeniko atomo. Den exei KAMIA SHMASIA
pou DIAFWNOUSE se ORISMENA themata. DEN mporoume na symfwnoume oloi!
Eidika emeis oi Ellhnes etsi? ;-) Gia na eimai dikaios omws to
ShutTheFuckUp den eprepe na to pei. Kai egw tha to thewrousa prosbolh.
Telos pantwn, kai esy ton proseballes. Twra to poios arxise...den tha
katsw na to psaksw kai polu...den exei nohma....egw eblepa aplws pou
trwgwsastan kai eixate ksefugei apo to thema me proswpikes
antiparatheseis. O Allotrios mou eipe oti esy arxises...pantws gia
mena twra pia den exei kamia aksia to "poios arxise".. Oi egine egine.
Gia ayto tha se parakalousa na mhn epanalabeis(toulaxiston se diko mou
"thread" kai mesw emou) prwswpikes aixmes gia allon...kai polu
perissotero gia ton Allotrio...Me katalabaineis pisteuw...

> > Twra kati allo gia to oti "Oi Ellhnes den kanoun orismenes doulies".
> > Re pallhkaria, stis ELIES kai sta AMPLELIA, stis OIKODOMES kai sta
> > KARABIA POIOI douleuan prina apo MOLIS 15 xronia?????
>
> Ti psaxneis tora me autous? Exoume kai oikonomika stixia, alla ti sxesi exi
> h logiki me tis apopsis ton "proodeutikon"?
>

Psaxnw na brw atoma me ta opoia tha mporw POLITISMENA kai TEKMHRIWMENA
na syzhthsw! Mono ayto! Atoma me kalh thelhsh kai MUALLO xwris
"TAMPELES"(mas fagane oi "tampeles" pia)! Gia to an einai
proodeutikoi....den thumamai na exoun pei oti einai....Pantws EMMENW
sth thesh mou ayth: "stis ELIES kai sta AMPLELIA, stis OIKODOMES kai
sta KARABIA, POIOI douleuan prina apo MOLIS 15 xronia?????" Ma fysika
oi Paterades mas, oi PAppoudes mas, oi Manades mas. AYTOI DOULEYAN
ENTIMA! gia ena MEROKAMATO!!! Kai as mou apodeiksei KANEIS to
antitheto...Perimenw....

> [snip]
> > Na pw kai kati liga gia to egklhma. Lene oti oi Allodapoi genika den
> > prokalesan aukshsh twn egklhmatwn.
>
> Pios anideos to leei auto? Asfalos den tha kitane ta stixia pou parexei to
> ipourgio dimosias ta3is.
>

To kserw ayto. FYSIKA kai AYKSHTHIKAN kata polu kai einai APOLUTWS
FYSIOLOGIKO! Afou DEN EXOUN DOULIA, DEN exoun na fane! ti tha
kanoun??? EGKLHMA! Gia auto kai lew: STOP! OXI ALLOUS
METANASTES!!(auto mou thumise ton Kourkoulo:"Oxi allo karbouno" ;-) !!
KANOUME KAKO KAI SE EMAS ALLA POLU PERISSOTERO SE AYTOUS!!! DEN TO
KATALABAINOUNE PIA????? PREPEI NA TOUS DOUME NA PSOFANE STOUS
DROMOUS??? As parei o kathe PSEYTO-ARISTEROS-PROODEUTIKOS tou KWLOU
apo 2-3 SPITI tou na tous taizei! E-L-E-O-S!!

> > Akouste: Apo ta EKSAKRIBWMENA
> > EGKLHMATA to 50% twn ANTHRWPOKTONIWN
> > tis exoun diapraksei Allodapoi, dhladh peripou to 10% tou plhthusmou!!
>
> Nomizo oti einai to 60%. Auto den exei pantos megali simasia. Simasia exei
> ti PROSFEROUN stin Ellada, ton Ellinismo, kai ston Ellina. Kai an kai
> gnorizo arketa kala ta ARNITIKA, as mou pei kapios that "thetika" (kai as
> min kolisoun sta "koultouriarika").
>

Katalabainw ti les alla me thn idia logikh "Ti proseferan oi ELLHNES
metanastes stis xwres pou phgan?"??....Ti???...Enas Germanos
Amerikanos h Aystralos tha sou edine perissoteres plhrofories....

> [snip]
> > San na mhn eftane ayto statistika tou 2003
> > deixnoun oti ENAS stous TREIS LATHROMETANASTES DEN ERGAZETAI!!
>
> Ti les!? O diarixtis, o emporas narkotikon, kai oloi oi alloi tis "nuxtas"
> douleia kanoun!
>

Exeis dikio alla DEN einai OLOI EGKLHMATIES! Mhn tous bazoume sto idio
tsoubali! Gegonos einai omw oti exoun bash ayta pou les...Ta egklhmata
pou thewrw ta PIO EIDEX8H, ta EGKLHMATA KATA ZWHS! exoun
YPERDIPLASIASTEI!....
Sigoura merikoi apo tous lathrometanastes eprepe na htan sth fulakh h
na eixan apelathei! Opws uposthrizw,(kai mazi me mena kai to 80% twn
Ellhnwn), oti OPOIOS ALLODAPOS KANEI SOBARO EGKLHMA, kai den ennow na
klepsei "patatakia" apo to periptero gia na faei, that prepei na
APELAUNETAI!! GIATI DEN DEIXNEI SEBASMO STH XWRA POU TON FILOKSENEI!!
TELEIA KAI PAULA!
EIMAI KATHETOS se ayto!

> [snip]
> > Oso gia sena gogu sorry pou den anaferthika alla kuriws exeis
> > "proswpika" me ton Pylarino opote ti na pw??
>
> Ti "prosopika"? Den einai "prosopo" o gogu, mia anonymi aderfi einai pou
> poula mouri. Ton eidame stin pra3i.
>

Apo thn pleura sou to blepeis etsi, alla sou eipa: mhn kaneis
PRWSWPIKES epitheseis mesa apo dika mou "thread". Please. Exeis tous
logous sou, tous SEBOMAi(opws SEBOMAI kai twn allwn) alla oxi mesa apo
tetoia "post". Me katalabaineis...

> > Kai esena Pylarine mporei
> > na mhn moirazomai tis idees sou alla auto den paei na pei tipota.
>
> Mexri stigmis parousiases akribos tis thesis pou exo sto thema.
>

Se merika nai, se alla pali oxi. Exeis mia tash na ta isopedwneis
ola...tha matheis sth zwh oti den einai etsi...Gia pes mou: Sou aresei
pou kai esena se "stoibazoun" merikoi mazi me th MAZA twn ANAGKEFALLWN
"xountikwn" kai "akrodeksiwn"?? Apo oso blepw den exeis kamia sxesh me
ton PANHLHTHIO ton Pattako, oute me alla ZWA pou blepw kata kairous
sthn TV.
Den nomizw na sou aresei na se katatasoun me atoma xamhlhs morfwshs
kai nohmosynhs. Eisai eksypnos anthrwpos, ksereis na milas, alla exeis
ena ellatwma: Ta isopedwneis olla gia tis idees sou. Den einai etsi
file. Kai makari na allakseis gnwmh mesa apo to dialogo. Kai oi
arxaioi eLLHNES EBAZAN "NERO STO KRASI TOUS" Prepei na dexomaste NEES
IDEES! Swstes omws kai sigoura oxi blaberes gia thn Ellada kai ton
Ellhnismo.

> > Elpizw na mhn se proseballa pouthena.
>
> Kai na me prosebales den tha sou klafto, opos kanoun kapioi "magkes" tou
> glukou nerou.
>

Pisteuw oti an synantiwsoun me kapoion apo aytous pou twra "miseis"
estw kai "ideologika", pisteuw oti mallon tha ekseplhsosoun
euxarista...Akou me pou sou lew...Twra bleppeis mono apsyxes
grammes...Yparxei polu parapanw apo ayto. ;-)

> > A, twra thumithika pou mou eixes
> > pei gia to an hmoun fantaros sta Imia, nai hmoun sthn aeroporia, den
> > me kalesan gia epistrateush, hmoun "mesa", ;-). Hmoun se mia apo tis 6
> > MSEP: Moira Stathmou Elenxou kai Proeidopoihshs. Ws hlektronikos,
> > ksereis puknwtes, kollhthria, sxedia, ktl, ;-).
> > Plhroforiaka exoume 4 MKSE Moires Kentrikou Stathmou Elenxou 8 MSEP
> > kai 6 SA Stathmous Anaforas. Synolika 18 Epigeia Radar kaluptoun thn
> > epikrateia. Ta 15-16 apo ayta exoun apokleistika thn eythynei na
> > "parakolouthoun" tous "filous" mas tous Moggolous.
>
> Me tetios orous (idieteros to "Moggolous"), pos na min se perasoune gia
> "fasista" kai "ratsisti?! :)
>

Koita na deis. Oson afora thn "parth" mou, den thewrw to "Moggolos"
meiwtiko. Moggoloi einai mia "ratsa" "fylh", opws emeis eimaste
Indoeyrwpaioi(oso kia an exw kapoious endiasmous gia tous
Indoeyrwpaious, alla den einai epi tou parontws na to
sxoliasw)-Kaukasia fulh. Eksallou "Moggolikh" ratsa einai kai oi
Kinezoi, oi Iapwnes, kai tosoi alloi. Ti paei na pei?? Oti einai
"katwteroi"?? OXI. Apla o logos pou tous to thumizw einai
allos...Epeidh "KLEBOUN" thn istoria mas oi gamhmenoi! Phgene sth
Efeso na deis ti tha sou pei o "perihghths" Oti ta eftiaksan leei oi
"progonoi tous" Wre pate kala??? Poioi progonoi sas re Moggoloi??? Oi
IWNES thn extisan thn Efeso kai tis alles Ellhnikes Apoikies! Den
ftanei pou mas sfaksate zhtate kai ta resta?(To allo mou "miso" einai
"pontiako", apo th Samsounta). Epeidh prepei na "apokthsoun" istoria
me to ETSI THELW oi Moggoloi tha thn "plhrwsoume" emeis?? Kserw POLU
KALA oti to na tous les "Moggolous" tous katastrefei thn "Eyrwpaikh"
tous antilhpsh kai thewria ths fylhs tous "MH XESW"(mexrh kai thn
PANOUKLA to "Black Death" eferan sthn Eyrwph gia na thn
katastrepsoun!)! Tous DYALUEI tis autapates pou to Stratiwtiko
Katesthmeno pasxizei na xtisei kai na synthrhsei....Kai goustrw me
XILIAAA!!
Epishs exw niwseis sto PETSI mou KALUTERA apo PARA POLLOUS ALLOUS ti
kanoun KATHIMERINA oi Moggoloi sto AIGAIO MAS! Einai san na blepw enan
KATHIMERINO BIASMO!!! ENA BIASMO POU EKTULISETAI XRONIA TWRA!! Exw
faei APEIRES EPIFULAKES GIA XARH TWN TOURKALADWN!! APEIRES FORES EXW
KSENYXTHSEI DIPLA STOUS "MPATZHDES" MAS STA Rheinmetall!!! EXW FAEI
APEIRO KRYO STA BOUNA POU EINAI TA RADAR!!! GNWRIZW PWS EXOUN TA
PRAGMATA!! Nai DEN TOUS GOUSTARW!! Ksereis giati? Nai mporei na
gnwrizw oti einai "BRAINWASHED" apo thn sxolikh tous hlikia, nai KSERW
oti tous exoun kanei to muallo poure, alla TI NA KANW??? Mhpws prepei
na pw AN kai OTAN(to APEYXOMAI) ginei enas polemos oti: Kaloi mou
sunanthrwpoi Tourkoi, kserw oti den ftaite eseis gia auto pou eiste
alla ftaiei h stratiwtikh xounta pou sas "gamaei" to muallo apo mikra.
Gia ayto kai egw den tha sas polemhsw kai mporeite na me skotwsete,
na parete ta Ellhnika edafh pou mas exoun apomeinei kai na biasete th
gynaika kai ta paidia mou. E OXI!!!
*DEN* GINONTAI AYTA TA PRAGMATA!! Ksexwra to ena me to allo prepei na
eimaste REALISTES panw ap'ola!! Eksallou o "AMORFWTOS" pou den exei na
faei tha me skotwsei. Den tha erthei kanenas tourkos Strathgos na me
katharisei! Oute o Ozkiok OUTE o Karantagi, oute o..Kemal! Enan
anwnymos foukaras kai BLAKAS tourkos tha me skotwsei...kai auto ARKEI!
Gia ayto kai egw san ELLHN, tha kanw auto pou ekanan oi progonoi mou
PANTA!! Tha tous steilw apo ekei pou HR8AN!!
TELEIA KAI PAULA! Kai osoi me kathgorisoun gia fasismo ratsismo me
tous tourkous kai alles tetoies malakies tha tous pw STA MOUTRA SAS
TEMPELOSKULA!
Eimai *ANENDOTOS* SE AUTO, opws ANENDOTOS eimai sto oti o Hlios
anatellei apo thn Anatolh!! To exw BIWSEI, to exw dei ME TA IDIA MOU
TA MATIA kai gia ayto den shkwnw MYGA STO SPATHI MOU!! An ALLAKSOUN
KAI SEBASTOUN THN AKERAIOTHTA THS XWRAS MOU KAI AFHSOUN TIS
ATHLIOTHTES POU KANOUN KATHIMERINA tote tha allaksw stash kai egw!
Exeis dei piloto mas meta apo anaxaithsh???
An ton deis tha ton luphtheirs! Milame na MHN mporeiu na bgei XWRIS
BOHTHIA apo to cockpit, na ton SERNOUN "LIWMENO" sthn KURIOLEKSIA, na
einai ENTONA MELLANIASMENOS apo ta allepallhla Gs kai me mona kokkina
shmeia th muth tou kai to stoma tou, ekei pou "pianei" h maska
oksugwnou. Kathimerina ayta ta pallhkaria PAIZOUN TH ZWH TOUS
KWRWNA-GRAMMATA OXI GIA NA "maintain their living standards or to
improve them" alla gia na mporoume OLOI EMEIS NA XAIROMASTE TA NHSIA
MAS, TH THALLASA MAS, kai ta KALOKAIRIA MAS!! Tou BGAZW TO KAPELO KAI
OSO ZW THA EXW MONO TA KALYTERA NA LEW GIA AYTOUS TOUS ANTHRWPOUS POU
TO KRATOS TWN NEO-GRAIKYLWN KOPROSKULWN TOUS AMOIBEI MONO ME
400.000drx(sun kati GELEIA posa gia ta pththka!).
Mexri na allaksoun "malli" oi tourkoi omws: TOURKOI MOGGOLOI
DOLOFONOI!!
Kai opoianou tou aresei!.-
(Ksexasame KIOLAS ta IMIA??)!

> > As opsete o
> > kathikhs o Giorgakhs! An eixe o kosmos estw kai mia MIKRH IDEA gia to
> > TI PRAGMATIKA ginetai panw apo to Aigaio mas pisteuw oti ta pragmata
> > tha htan alliws. Alla "koimizoun" thn koinh gnwmh me "arton kai
> > theamata". Oute o Goebbels den tha ta kataferne kalutera. Ksereis ti
> > paei na pei 2000 Peripou parabiaseiss to 6mhno???? Asto kalutera. Isws
> > sto mellon milhsw pio polu gia ayta...alla den mporw na pw kai
> > polla...katalabaineis...;-).
>
> Se katalabeno apolita. Eimai malista pilotos kai mixanikos aeroskafon, kai
> eixa dosi gia tin Ikaron prin arketa xronia. Alla blepeis, ego eimai "sapio
> kreas" gia autous pou kibernoun, alla o Tsenai (kai ta alla paidia
> allodapon) a3izoun isis metaxirisis!
>

Pisteuw ta exeis mperdepsei ligo edw: Koita na deis, kai egw hthela
gia Ikarwn alla eixa Muwpia(den exw twra ekana Laser, xexe.. ;-) ! DEN
mporosa na paw kai to katalaba. Exeis dikaiwma kai esy sta oneira sou
apla kapoies fores den mas erxontai ola etsi opws ta theloume....mhn
kathgoreis tous allous...kai sigoura eidika gia thn Ikarwn oxi tous
metanastes...
Gia kapoio logw ta oneira mas DEN ginontai panta
pragmatikothta...Exeis akousei to nomo tou Merphy? "Otan theleis kati
polu einai san na exoun synwmwthsei oles oi dunameis tou sympantos
enantiwn sou" Me liga logia, kati pou theleis na ginei exei ligoteres
apo tis mises pithanothtes na pragmatopoihthei. Den pisteuw oti den
prospathises...apla den egine...den pisteuw oti eisai "sapio kreas"
gia thn Ellada, oute oti h "Ellada" se thewrhse "sapio kreas" epeidh
den eixes thn tyxh na gineis Iptamenos ths Ikarwn(posa paidia eksallou
DEN ginontai??APEIRA!Ase mh sou pw kalutera gia ta BYSMATA pou bazoun
oi bouleutes sthn Ikarwn kai se alles sxoles..An kapoios sou "efage"
th thesh aytos tha htan kapoios pou eixe "Mparma stnn korwnh" kai htan
sigoura "Ellhnas". Akou pou sou lew ;-) .
Nai to kserw oti polles fores h Ellada TRWEI TA PAIDIA THS! To exw
biwsei kai egw opws kai oi perissoteroi. Omws thn AGAPAME th
"GAMHMENH", gia kapoion logo thn AGAPAME! Kai kseroume oti EPANW MAS
THA BASISTEI OTAN ERTHEI H DYSKOLH WRA! Esy den to pisteueis auto??
Ase tous GAMIOLHDES tous Bouleutes pou ta "PAirnoun apo pantou" kai
xontrainoun tis mpakes tous sto Mpourdello.
H Ellada kai o Ellhnismos den exei sxesh me thn ekastote morfh
eksousias pou thn "kubernoun" sto perasma tou xronou. Einai kati POLU
PIO BATHY apo mia GAMHMENH kratikh ontothta!! Ellhnismos einai h
MEGALUTERH IDEA!! kai kati pou AKSIZEI STA SIGOURA NA POLLEMHSEIS GIA
AYTO! Toulaxiston gia mena....

> > Oson afora to kentriko thema gia th shmaia, th lathrometanasteush ktl,
> > sas entharinw na kanoume mia koubenta POLITISMENH afhnwntas EKSW tous
> > eautous mas. Dhladh: Allotrie, gogu Pylarine kai OPOIOS allos thelei
> > einai EYPROSDEKTOS!
>
> Ontos. Kai signomi gia tous latinikous xaraktires kai ton tropo pou tous
> xrisimopio.
>

Nomizw oti tous xrhshmopoieis KALUTERA apo mena... ;-)

> [snip]
> > Na'ste kala kai REALISTES oso to dunaton pio polu,
> >
> > -Hades
> > apo thn synnefiasmenh Athina.
>
> Dionysios Pilarinos en Nea Yorkh.

-HAdes apo thn (pali, ouf!) synnefiasmenh Athina.

--
Remove SpAmTrAp to reply

[Hades]

Allotrios <st...@the.hell.out> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a1b122c...@news.demon.co.uk>...

> In article <4a725c2a.03111...@posting.google.com>, Hades
> areistogei...@yahoo.com stated:

[SNIP]

> > Twra sto thema ths shmaias: Giati den mphkes ston kopo na
> > sxoliaseis to post mou Allotrie?
>
> Giati den to eida? Den kserw an auto sou fenetai parakseno h oxi,
> alla den diabazw ola ta articles se auto to group. Den exw ton
> xrono kai polles fores oute thn diathesh. Poio arthro einai kai
> pote to estiles, na psaksw na to brw kai na apanthsw.
>

Pros theou re file. Giati na psakseis na breis to post?? Mou einai
polu pio eukolo na sto parathesw. Oriste loipon: ;-)

- "First of all I would like to say that we gave a hell of a lot
attention to this Albanian kid. Surely he does not deserve it. There
are other kids who have made more important things than to be the
first in their schools.
Second, I would like to clear the things up about Tsenai, especially
for those Helleness who live outside Hellas.
a) Tsenai DOES NOT feel Greek!!! In Triantafyllopulos' TV show, HE
DIDN'T SAY THAT HE FEELS GREEK! NOT EVEN ONCE!!! ALTHOUGH HE WAS ASKED
MANY TIMES!! He said that "I am PROUD for being Albanian"! That's fine
by me(everyone should be proud for his nationality) but he COULDN'T
hold OUR flag!!!!! Moreover he said THREE TIMES THAT "We(the
Albanians) have a good relationship with the Hellenes the last
years"!!!!!!
b) Tsenai is 2,5 years OLDER than the other kids. That means in plain
words that while the other kids are 16-17 he is 19-20! ;-)
c) His grades were higher in the secondary classes(he had 20 in
gymnastic) while the second Greek student had ONLY 17!! Moreover in
the PRIMARY classes our Greek students OUTCLASSED the young
Albanian(the Greek second student had 19-20 while Tsenai had only
17-18).
d) He is NOT a "poor" immigrant kid. His father was an Officer of the
previous government of Albania Emver Hotza! He is a middle-class kid
and NOT a poor immigrant. Maybe he could tell us about the Human
Rights of our Minority in Southern Albania(Boreia Hpiros). If our
brothers there have Greek Schools and If they are allowed the
instruction of the Greek language in their schools! So much about the
"Albanians".
Conclusion.
I have NO PROBLEM IF somebody wants to HOLD the Greek flag high. But
he/she has to BE or FEEL Greek!!!!! Moreover it was NEVER part of our
"school laws" to carry the Flag the one who achieved the best grade!!!
This was CHANGED by P. Eythymiou of PASOK government in 2000. The
anti-Greek traitor CHANGED the law in order to bring confusion and
CORRUPTION to the Hellenic Society!!!! In my time the Flags were
carried by the one who could DEFEND THEM and had the greatest "H8OS"!!
In Greek "Tas Shmaias Tas Ferei Ekeinos Pou Dynatai Na Tis
Yperaspistei"! That's why the female students and kids with
disabilities were not allowed to carry the Flag, just few years ago.
Even me, when i was the best student in my class I didn't had the
honor to carry our flag because some other fellow had a more proper
"step" in the parade. I recognized it and I kindly gave the flag to my
fellow with ALL MY HEART!. If this is the best for our Flag, for our
pride, so BE IT! I said. And I was in his right side, (Parastaths) in
Greek.
The Flag Symbolizes "something" to our hearts and minds. OUR Flag,
which is wet by the blood of our Heroes, is NOT some kind of Cup!! It
is NOT some kind of Trophy! There is NOTHING racist about it! This is
the truth! The VAST majority of the Greek population AGREE with this!!
Even the "Parliament of the Youths" STATED "The flags have to be
carried by HELLENES! To the alien kids we can give other trophies and
grace"!!! These were the WORDS of our YOUTH! I am PROUD of them and I
believe that there is hope at the end of the tunnel. What a HYPOCRISY
of our CORRUPTED POLITICIANS to try to HIDE this!!! SHAME ON THEM! For
they want to DESTROY our Heritage our National Identity and
HELLENISM!!
Be well folks.
Na'ste kala kai realistes panw ap'ola. Ta wraia logia den kostizoun
tipota kai hxoun omorfa sta aftia pantwn. Omws oi realistrikes luseis
kai apopseis metrane th shmeron epoxh."
Kai pes mou POU diafwneis. Kai pes mou se parakalw an blepeis tipota
to FASISTIKO h RATSISTIKO! Kai sxoliase se parakalw kai thn apofash
ths Boulhs twn Efhbwn! GIATI oi KARIOLHDES oi Poliikoi tou KWLOU pou
exoume kai ta GAMHMENA ta MME th THAPSANE! DEN EINAI XOUNTIKO AUTO
Allotrie??? (Oso gia thn Athinaikh koinwnia tha to psaksw kai molis
brw xrono tha sou apanthsw ok?)

>
> Take care.
You too my friend,

-Hades

[Allotrios]

In article <93768136.03111...@posting.google.com>, Hades
tartarus...@mail.gr stated:

> Allotrios <st...@the.hell.out> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a1b122c...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> > In article <4a725c2a.03111...@posting.google.com>, Hades
> > areistogei...@yahoo.com stated:
> [SNIP]
> > > Twra sto thema ths shmaias: Giati den mphkes ston kopo na
> > > sxoliaseis to post mou Allotrie?
> >
> > Giati den to eida? Den kserw an auto sou fenetai parakseno h oxi,
> > alla den diabazw ola ta articles se auto to group. Den exw ton
> > xrono kai polles fores oute thn diathesh. Poio arthro einai kai
> > pote to estiles, na psaksw na to brw kai na apanthsw.
> >
> Pros theou re file. Giati na psakseis na breis to post?? Mou einai
> polu pio eukolo na sto parathesw. Oriste loipon: ;-)
>

Thanks!

File mou, edw einai pou diafonoume. Gia mena, apo thn stigmh pou
mpike katw apo thn simaia mas, einai san na thn ypiretei. Den
pisteuw oti einai toso blakas pou na mi kserei ti simenei na kratas
thn simaia enws kratous psila. Den tha perimena na brisei thn
albania sthn thleorash h na thn aparnithei. Pios kserei ti trabaei
apo tous albanous. Mallwn xeirotera apo oti trabaei apo emas.

> Moreover it was NEVER part of our
> "school laws" to carry the Flag the one who achieved the best grade!!!
> This was CHANGED by P. Eythymiou of PASOK government in 2000.

Hmmmm den thelw na paiksw ton dikigoro tou diolou edw, alla auto me
tous bathmous htan kai sto diko mou to sxolio otan pigena egw.
Milame gia 1982-83 toulaxisto. Sto dimotiko bebaia oloi pernan 10
kai A opote thn eperne o psiloteros. Apo to gimnasio kai meta, thn
eperne autos me tous kalhterous bathmous. Auta omws sto sxoleio
mou, isws alla sxolia na to kanan alliws?

> The
> anti-Greek traitor CHANGED the law in order to bring confusion and
> CORRUPTION to the Hellenic Society!!!! In my time the Flags were
> carried by the one who could DEFEND THEM and had the greatest "H8OS"!!
> In Greek "Tas Shmaias Tas Ferei Ekeinos Pou Dynatai Na Tis
> Yperaspistei"! That's why the female students and kids with
> disabilities were not allowed to carry the Flag, just few years ago.

Ksana edw tha diafonisw. H Adelfh mou htan simaioforos sthn prwth
gymnasiou. Milame gia 1983 konta. Den thimamai omws xaraktiristika
gia paliwtera, alla toulaxisto auto to thimamai 100% giati zileba
:p

Den kserw file mou, sigoura ta blepoume ta pramata apo diaforetikh
apopsh. Egw opws eipa, tha aisthanomoun prosbolh an o Tsenai den
ekane thn timh sthn xora pou ton ekpedeuei kai ton krataei asfalh
na ktarisei thn simaia ths psila. Katalabenw omws kai pws to
blepeis kai esy.

Na se kala :)

[gogu]

? "Hades" <tartarus...@mail.gr> ?????? ??? ??????
news:93768136.03111...@posting.google.com...

> "Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message
news:<68wsb.156404$pT1.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
> > "Hades" <areistogei...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:4a725c2a.03111...@posting.google.com...
> > [snip]
> > > Afora thn ypothesh Tsenai(aman pia) thn Ellhnikh
> > > shmaia kai tous metanastes. Edw kai kati bdomades trwgwsaste metaksy
> > > sas. Nai esas ennow, Allotrios, Pularinos kai gogu.
> >
> > To thema einai h metanasteusi kai oxi anagastika o Tsenai.
> >
> Edw tha hthela na sou pw oti to thema einai h "LATHRO-METANASTEUSH"
> kai OXI h "METANASTEUSH". "METANASTEUSH" yphrxe kai tha YPARXEI oso
> yparxoun ANTRWPOI oi opoioi "DYNATAI" na "METAKINHTHOUN", ;-) Allo h
> NOMIMH metanasteush kai allo h LATHRO-metanasteush. Etsi den einai??
> Exw kai egw syggeneis sthn amerikh kuriws alla kai sthn Aystralia. MHN
> tous PYROBOLOUME OLOUS ADIAKRITWS. Swsta??

A geia soy!
Kaneis den 8elei thn la8rometanasteysh!
Omws h alh8eia einai oti ena noymero metanastwn h Ellada to xreiazetai!
Poio kaloma8hmeno Ellhnopoylo 8a paei na ginei skoypidiarhs? H sthn
oikodomh? H na mazepsei elies? H froyta katw apo ton kayto hlio? Ktl, ktl...
Allo h la8rometanasteysh, allo h metanasteysh!
To eipes swsta!

Sta parakatw den 8elw na ypeisel8w giati me ton Pi-pi-larino koybenta sobarh
kai xwris brisies den ginetai...
Ksexnaei omws oti o Papadopoylakos -opws kai esy les- phre thn taksiarxeia
apo thn Kypro, opws kai oti organwse toylaxiston dyo dolofonikes apopeires
enantion toy Makarioy...
Alla logia n'agapwmaste dhladh...

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"Allotrios" <st...@the.hell.out> wrote in message

news:MPG.1a1d74075...@news.demon.co.uk...

> > Simfona me ton Allotrio (ton "expert" se themata Ellinismou), autoi
pethanan
> > kai akrotiriastikan gia prosopika simferonta! Des to arthro me to
> > Message-ID: <MPG.1a0c81125...@news.demon.co.uk>.
>
> Mathe na diabazeis prwta kai meta na anafereis to onoma mou mazi
> me tis blakeis pou nomizeis oti diabases.

Dika sou logia agorina mou
(http://www.google.com/groups?selm=MPG.1a130682f775115e98aac5%40news.demon.c
o.uk&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain):

"ROFLMAO. Oh you are sooooo driven by propaganda bullshit it is not
even funny. People fight wars to maintain their living standards or
to improve them. The drive to maintain their way of life is much
greater than any nationalistic instinct."

Oriste kai o dialogos pou eixame prin arxisis tis xideotates ibris kata ton
maxomenon tou deuterou pagkosmiou:

Allotrios: "Also can you please tell me what those Greeks sacrificed their
lifes for? Cause I clearly said why I think they did, but you didn't."

Pilarinos: "The nation-state. The cry was "empros tis Ellados paidia". They
were lead by a fascist who upheld Hellenic virtues and values."

Opote les PSEMATA otan amfisbitis auta pou pentakathara egrapses.

Opote, salta kai gamisou kolopseftara! Dialogos blepis den ginete otan
simperiferese etsi.

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"Hades" <tartarus...@mail.gr> wrote in message
news:93768136.03111...@posting.google.com...

> > To thema einai h metanasteusi kai oxi anagastika o Tsenai.
>
> Edw tha hthela na sou pw oti to thema einai h "LATHRO-METANASTEUSH"
> kai OXI h "METANASTEUSH". "METANASTEUSH" yphrxe kai tha YPARXEI oso
> yparxoun ANTRWPOI oi opoioi "DYNATAI" na "METAKINHTHOUN", ;-) Allo h
> NOMIMH metanasteush kai allo h LATHRO-metanasteush. Etsi den einai??

Ti "metanasteush" (nomimi h paranomi) eixame prin to ti dekaetia tou 80?

> Exw kai egw syggeneis sthn amerikh kuriws alla kai sthn Aystralia. MHN
> tous PYROBOLOUME OLOUS ADIAKRITWS. Swsta??

Sosta. Alla blepeis, oi xores pou anafereis eixan kai exoun logous gia na
epitrepsoun ti nomimi metanasteusi. Otan eixan (kai exoun) terasties
akatikites ektasis, oikonomikous, politistikous, kai allous logous... fisiko
einai na epitrepoun tin metanasteusi kai monimopiisi auton. Alla ti sxesi
exei h Ellada me tis HPA h Australia?

> > Kai kanenas den sxoliase ta duo arthra me titlo: "Immigration and Hellas
> > (Albanians)". Asfalos me egkires plirofories den ginete o "dialogos" pou
> > exoun sinithisi oi gogu kai allotrios. Oti xazomara katebasi to
mialoudaki
> > tous to parousiazoun dixos kanena stixio.
>
> To parathrhsa kai egw ayto. Isws na mhn ta eidan...Isws na ta ekrinan
> "Polu Challenging" kai na mhn mphkan ston kopo. Isws na mhn eixan
> xrono..
> Den mporw na kserw...Einai krima omws...Tha EPREPE na ta sxoliasoun
> OLOI oi Ellhnes pou pairnoun thesh sto thema ayto. Ostosw den
> aspazomai to oti lene xazomares...apla DIAFWNEITE(diafonoume) se
> orismenes apopseis! Den einai kako ayto.

Den "diafonoume". Atoma "diafonoune" otan apodexonte e3akribonena stixia kai
tin alithia. Otan parousiazo tous nomous tou kratous pou lene oti oi
latheroi prepei na apelasonte h kai na filakizonte gia kapio xroniko
diastima... den mporeis na exeis ton Allotrio h ton opiodipote anideo na tin
aporipti kai na katebazei oti kotsana tou erxete sto mialoudaki. Thes na
petas kotsanes gia ton Tsenai, gia pososta nomimon metanaston, h gia tin
nomothesia kai "amnisties"... tote parousiase stixia.

Esi eixes tis apopsis tou, kai eftases eki me kati stixia (ta opia
parousiases). Allo lipon gia kapion na diafoni me tis aposis kai tin
katali3i pou eftases, kai allo na amfisbitoun ta stixia pou parousiases
(dixos kan na parousiasoun kati ousiastiko gia tis dikes tous "apopsis").

> > Kai pios akribos me "stamparise" "neo-fasista-xountiko"? An psaxnis gia
> > fasistes kai xountikous, pige kai bres tous sto kinoboulio (h sta
kommatika
> > grafia).
>
> Ypo mia ennoia exeis dikio...Den mou fainetai ta KOPROSKULA pou
> lumainontai thn Ellas na exoun polu perissoteres euaisthisies apo tous
> "xountikous". ;-) Pantws egw "tampeles" den bazw se kanenan! Oute se
> esena oute se KANENAN ALLO! Krinw tous PANTES apo th domimenh skepsh
> pou mporoun na "paragoun" kai apo auta pou exoun na poun.

Giati diaxorizis ta koproskyla (politikantides) apo tous "xountikous"? Oi
idioi einai.

> > Para3eno mou fenete oti o Papadopoulos, o Pattakos, h o Makarezos
efthinonte
> > gia to Kypriako! Pios ipograpse tis simfonies tis Zirixis kai Londinou?
Pios
> > h pioi diakibernousan ti xora to 1963 (pou efarmostike h "prasini
grami") h
> > to kalokairi tou 1974? Pia "DIKH tous aformh" prokalese tin isboli tis
> > Kyrpou?
>
> Ela twra re file...POIOS PHRE THN "TAKSIARXIA-MERARXIA tou Gewrgiou
> Papandreou????????

Telika ti itan, ta3iarxia h merarxia? An den to gnorizes, h "merarxia"
(miomenis sinthesis) briskontan paranoma stin Kypro (gi'auto kai itan "koino
mistiko" h ipar3i tis), kai itan afoplismeni (apo bareo iliko).
Antikatastathike apo poli sosta apo tin Ethniki Froura (pou ta stelexi tis
itan Elladites). Alla ti sxesi exei auto me to Kypriako? O Makarios o idios
den ithele Elladites stratiotikous sto nisi poli prin tin "xounta" tis
Athinas (malista, to pra3ikopima tou 1974 kata tou egine giati ithele na
dio3i tous Elladites).

> Den htan oi xountiko-malkes me IQ-radikiou??

O Papadopoulos htan o arxigos tis ta3is tou stin Euelpidon gia tessera
xronia. O Makarezos htan oikonomikos efiias. O Pattakos exei grapsi biblia.
Alla ti leme tora... tosa xronia ta komatoskyla milane gia "IQ" kai teties
ilithioties. As parousiasoun STOIXEIA gia to IQ tou kathemianou.

> Ela
> twra re file.....DES TA PRAGMATA A-N-T-I-K-E-I-M-E-N-I-K-A! Oson afora
> to IQ tou Pattakou.....H PATATA exei pio polu muallo! ;-)

Ti gnorizeis gia ton Pattako? Ton exeis gnorisi? Exeis diabasi ta biblia
tou? Pos exeis ftasi se tetio simperasma?

> Oso gia thn
> aformh thn edwsan oi IDIOI PANILITHIOI POU DEN MPOROUSAN NA MOIRASOUN
> SANO SE 2 GAIDAROUS! Mhn pw gia thn epistrateush giati.... ;-)

Pia epistrateusi? Eixe h Ellada epistrateusi to 1973?

> > Auta eginan PRIN tin epanastasi tou 1967. Gia pes mas, gia pio logo
brethike
> > o Karamanlis sto Parisi to 1963 (se "auto-e3oria")?
>
> Giati ton "efage" ayto pou o idios prin "eglufe": to palati. Alla htan
> afelhs pou nomise oti to "palati" tha ton afhne na kybernisei. Tespa,

Ti exei auto na kanei me tous logous pou efuge apo tin Ellada? Diafonise me
to palati giati den ithele na pai to basiliko zeugari sto Londino (logo
entonis diamartirias yper ton politikon kratoumenon).

> mporei na ginontousan kai tote alla OXI SE TOSO MEGALO BATHMO!!

Sigouros gi'auto? Giati den parousiazis STOIXEIA gia tous politikous
kratoumenous prin kai meta to 1967? Ego exo grapsi arketes fores gia to
thema, kai an thes kita3e to arxio tou google.

> Pisteuw na symfwneis oti h Xounta to PARAXESE to pragma! Kai gia

Pou to eides esi auto? H Epanastasi tou 1967 efarmose kainourgio sintagma
kai apeleutherose (me amnistia) tous politikous kratoumenous (autous tous
idious pou eixan katadikasi oi prin-epanastaseos kibernisis).

> katse: Epeidh ayta "ginontousan" opws les *TI* tous dikaiologei na ta
> "synexisoun"??? Ara ta idia "SKATA" einai kai autoi kai xeirotera!

Den ta "sinexisan"! An milas asfalos gia TROMOKRATES (autous pou bazane
bombes opos ekane kai h 17N), tote nai... tous rixnane filaki. Kai kala
ekanan.

> Hksera anthrwpous file pou mexri kai ANIKANOUS tous katesthsan ta
> TOMARIA!! TOUS ESPASAN TA AXIDIA STH KURIOLEKSIA!! Asta... ;-(

H tromokrates htan, h psemata lene. Diaforetika, as parousiasoun plirofories
gia na dosoun apantisis autoi (tis Epanastasis) pou epizoun.

> > Kai me tetia parapliroforisi pou ginete apo ta kommatoskyla, kalitera
> > dolofonos para "xountikos".
>
> Gia thn plhroforhsh den exeis adiko... alla gia to "dolofonos"....

Adiko exo? Kalitera "Roxamis" para "Xrisaugitis" (gia na min po
"xountikos"). Toulaxiston etsi to parousiazoun sta MME kai diaforoi
"proodeutikoi" (pou ta bazoun me ta "gourounia" tous "mpatsous").

> > Ti thes na sxoliasi? O tipos pisteuei oti osi polemisan gia tin simaia
to
> > ekanan gia na kanoun "maintain their living standards or to improve
them"!
>
> Se ayto tou eipa kai egw oti den symfwnw. Ti "maintain their living
> standards or to improve them"!?? O pappous mou katw sthn Pelloponnhso
> den eixe na "faei" pou lene.

Min to les auto! Tora kanei oti den to eipe... Me pseftes ti psaxneis?

> AGROTHS htan kai einai...kai ta MISA tou
> adelfia eixan paei Amerikh. Plaka mou kanei? Einai alla pragmata POLU
> PARAPANW apo thn "kaloperash". An noiazomastan mono gia thn
> "kaloperash" den tha diaferame se TIPOTA apo ta...zwa! Etsi den
> einai??(Gia ayto kai oi politikoi mas einai "ZWA ORTHIA"! ;-)

Makari na to'pernan prefa kai ta ZWA (polites) pou ontos kimounte.

> > Kai oxi mono auta. Ta pio prosfata den ta agagnorizei (sfages kata
Tourkon,
> > Albanon, Boulgaron, kok)?
>
> SFAGES????Ennoeis to 1821, Balkanikous kai alles periodous??? Gine pio
> sygkekrimenos.

Nai, autes tis sfages. Sfages itan, kai kala kamame. Diabase oudeteres piges
gia tin simperifora ton Ellinon kata ton proaneferthenton plithismon.

> > Profanos oute gia ton Perikli gnorizei! Kai oi duo goneis eprepe na'tan
> > Athineoi gia na apoktisi enas politika dikeomata (diladi na einai
politis).
>
> Gia ton aiwna to Periklh ta kserw. Alla tha to psaksw kai gia Solona
> epoxh. Pantws nomizw oti o Solon otan ellege gia "allodapous" ennoouse
> "allous Ellhnes" kai oxi px, Perses-Foinikes. Alla tha to psaksw gia
> na mhn eimai apolutos. Eks allou, den paizei kai kanena rolo. Milame
> gia NOMIMOUS metanastes thn shmeron epoxh.

Telika, ti sxesi exei h Athina tou Solona (h tou Perikli) me tin simerini
Ellada? Xriazete h Ellada metanastes? H megali pliospifia ton Ellinon leei
OXI.

> > Kai akoma perisotero, ti exei auto na kanei me ton simerino barbaro
isbolea!
> >
> Barbaro eisbolea?? Ton..."Tsenai"?? Tous "Moggolous"..Dieukrinise se
> parakalw.

Pas mi Ellin Barbaros...

> > Ti h simea kai ti ena aftokolito pokimon?! Toulaxiston etsi to blepoune
oi
> > "proodeutikoi".
> >
> Proodeutikoi=PSEUTO-Aristeroi=TEMPELXANADES tou KERATA=DHMOSIO=ARALIKH
> kai "agios o theos". TROMARA TOUS TA KOPROSKULA!

Kai pouse pou simera tha ipostirizoun to dikeoma ton "anarxikon" na kaine ti
simea...

> > Kai ego nomiza oti htan to mpoi! H mipos pirane prefa oti hmoun
"xountikos"
> > kai "fasistas" kai olo emena mou tin edinan?
> >
> Epaize rolo kai to MPOI, to "PARASTHMA" pou lene alla kai h DIAGWGH
> kai to HTHOS!!DEN ginotan shmaioforos aytos pou den eixe ARISTH
> diagwgh.

Ego thimame oti stin proti sira bazane tous psilous. Kontos den empene. Kai
efoson sximatizame triades, mono o enas apo tous tris pio psilous tin
kratouse.

> > [snip]
> > > Den to blepete oti theloun na prokalesoun thn PLHRH APAKSIWSH ths
> > > Ellhnikhs Koinwnias oi KARGIOLHDES pou mas KUBERNOUN???
> >
> > Stamata re! Tetia akribos leo kai go gia tous mprizololatres kai ta
> > kommatoskyla, kai me bgalane "xountiko".
> >
> ;-) Pisteuw oti se lene "XOUNTIKO" giati *AKOMA* yposthrizeis ta
> remalia me IQ-PATTAKOU, ;-) ) An re file les "Zhtw h 21 Apriliou" ti
> thes na se poune??
> ;-)

Giati sou eipe kanenas oti h 21 Apriliou htan "xounta"? Autoi pou simera tin
apokaloun "xounta", ti tin apokalousan tin periodo tou 67-73?

> > H pliopsifia ton Ellinon - 73.8% (basi dimosieumatos tis kathimerinis)
exei
> > arnitiki antilipsi gia tous "metanastes"/allodapous.
>
> To kserw kai egw auto kai to zw KATHIMERINA! Asfalws den einai sxedon
> OLOI oi Ellhnes "xountikoi"?? Etsi den einai?? Kai DIKAIWS o ELLHNAS
> "fobatai"!

Kai omos, ta tessera "megala" kommata (PASOK, ND, KKE, SYN) ipostirizoun tin
ipar3i ton allodapon.

[snip]

> mas...An h POLITEIA DEN SOU PAREXEI ASFALEIA ti tha KANEIS???? Etsi
> DEN kathgorw th syntriptikh pleiopshfia twn Ellhnwn pou den GOUSTAREI
> tous LATHROMETANASTES(kai tous metanastes genika, tous pairnei kai
> autous h...mpala!) Pali kala pou den eimai gunaika... ;-)

Pios eipe gia "LATHRO"metanastes? Gia ALLODAPOUS milousan ("nomimous" kai
mi).

> > Poli sosta! Kai auto akribos simbenei kai me to Kypriako (kai oute kan
> > anaferome gia tin period 67-73). Pote telika tha ani3oun auton ton
"fakelo"
> > gia na doume oloi tin alithia? H HPA kai to HB siga-siga lene tin
alithia,
> > kai blepoume pentakathara oti den eixan xeri stin Epanastasi tou 1967.
> > Blepoume omos oti ONTOS eixan magali epiroi sta megala kommata kai to
> > palati.
>
> Edw diafonw RIZIKA! Yparxoun egrafa pou syndeoun AMESA tous xountikous
> me IQ-PATTAKOU me th CIA!!!!

Gia parousiase ta.

> Oso gia tous fakelous...Einai thema twn Amerikanwn...

O "fakelos" einai Ellinikos, kai sti diathesi ton Ellinikon kiberniseon. Ti
perimenoun?

> Pote tha tous "shkwthei"...den mporw na kserw.Pantws gia
> na ksereis o Arapakhs kai oi alloi xountikoi arxhgoi twn epiteliws
> MAZI me tous xountikous synetelesan stn PRODOSIA! Htan prodosia!!

Pia prodosia? Oti eixame iperoplia to 1974? H oti o Karamanlis den
antistathike ton Augousto tou 74? Otan eftase o Karamanlis stin Ellada oi
tourkoi eixan to 3% tou nisiou (diladi oso katixan kai prin tin isboli). O
Karamanlis eixe stin diathesi tou tis enoples dinamis kai arketes ebdomades
gia na iperaspisi tin Kypro. Ti egine? Exase to 30+% tou nisou DIXOS maxi
(opos exase kai o Simitis ta Imia).

> Kai
> epishs GIATI den milane oi Xountikoi???? Ti kryboun tooosa xronia???

Pios den mila? O Pattakos exei grapsi tosa biblia! Episis, ean thes, mporeis
na pas na tou milisis.

> Prin h dikaiologia tous htan oti den milane gia na mhn "kseshkwthoun"
> oi Ellhnes kai "fygoun" apo to Dytiko "mplok" kai pane sto
> "anatoliko". Twra pou DEN uparxei to...Anatoliko GIATI den milane???
> Na sou pw egw?? Giati exoun XESMENH th FWLIA tous!

Pou eides h pios parousiase teties blakodis apopsis? O monos pou den mila
einai o Ioannidis.

> > Giati na tous dosoume kan brabeio? H dorean ekpedeusi den tous ftani?
Telika
> > tha paroun kai mia thesi panepistimiou apo Ellina...
>
> Giati yphrksan "kaloi apodektes ths ELLHNIKH PAIDIAS", gia auto prepei
> na tous ANAGNWRIZOUME thn prospathia tous giati einai DYSKOLO se mia
> ksenh xwra na aristeuseis, etsi den einai????

Tous anagnorizis otan tous dineis arista (20 h 100%) kai to apolitirio. Se
pio kratos sou dinei h kubernisi kapio brabeio basi nomou h diikitikis
apofasis?

> Alla OXI! th SHMAIA!
> Oson afora ta panephsthmia....Me thn idia logikoi oi EKATONTADES
> XILIADES ellhnes pou spoudasan kai spoudazoun sto ekswteriko ti
> einai??

Enois autous pou PLIRONOUN? As plirosoun kai oi allodapoi (opos plirosa kai
ego).

> Oi antallages thesewn sta panepisthmia kai h prosfora thesewn
> einai POLU SWSTH! Skepsou mono oti osoi ksenoi foitoun edw tha einai
> kaloi presbeytes tou Ellhnikou pneumatos stis xwres tous, etsi den
> einai?? Pws tha mas "gnwrisoun" diaforetika??? Pws tha matoun thn
> Ellhnikh Paidia???

Se 3enes xores den iparxi to problima periorismenon theseon anoteris
ekpedeusis. Gia kathe allodapo pou mpenei se Elliniko panepistimio, kapios
Ellinas den mpenei. Apla pragmata.

> Akou kai mia istorioula dikh mou...Loipon, eblepa prin apo kana xrono
> mia ekpomplh se ena *MIKRO* kai OXI MEGALO(exei shmasia) idiwtiko
> kanali. Eblepa enan diko mas "leuko" na milaei me ena "mauro"
> afrikano. Kai ekei pou perimena o Afrikanos na milhsei mia Afrikanikh
> diallekto h toulaxiston Aggllika, mantepse ti bghke apo to stoma tou.
> ELLHNIKA!!! Mama mia! pou lene kai oi Italoi! Molis synhrtha apo to
> politismiko "shock" den mporeis na fantasteis th xara mou pou eblepa
> oti kapoios toso diaforetikos apo auto pou synhthisame na blepoume
> kathimerina milouse ELLHNIKA!! Kai polu kala malista!!! Gia na mh sta
> pollulogw, htan kapoios pou poulouse ELLHNIKA BIBLIA FILOSOFIAS KAI
> OXI MONO(Sokrath, Platwna, Aristotelh, ka) sth NEA YORKH!!! STHN
> AMERIKH!!! Kai me parapono ksereis ti elege? Oti den yparxoun ELLHNES
> PLEON STH NEA YORKH POU NA POULANE TETOIA BIBLIA!!! Pes mou esy twra:
> AYTOS O ANTHRWPOS DEN EINAI PIO POLU ELLHNAS APO OLOUS EMAS????? Aytos
> DIADIDEI TON ELLHNIKO TO ELLHNIKO MEGALEIO KAI THN ELLHNIKH PAIDEIA
> KAI EMEIS TI KANOUME??? Mallon oxi kati antaksio! Pou einai oi
> "ELLHNARES" ths Neas Yorkhs h oi dikoi mas??? Anti gia emas(ta
> koproskula sth sygkekrimenh periptwsh), AYTOS STEKETAI EKEI KAI
> DIADIDEI TO ELLHNIKO PNEUMA!! Aytos gia mena file den einai Mia fora
> Ellhnas....EINAI EKATO!!!!!!!! Kai gia akoma mia fora to kratos twn
> NEO-GRAIKULWN KOPROSKULADWN ELAMPSE DIA THS APOUSIA TOU!! Etsi einai
> file... ;-)

Telika to eklise to magazi. Ton gnorisa ton Sam, kai malon ta paraelege
ligaki. Den eixe to mono bibliopolio, eixe to mono magazi pou htan
apoklistika bibliopolio (alla kai autos poulouse diafora biblia, oxi mono
Ellinika). Alla exeis dikio... giati to Elliniko kratos den ftiaxni ena
sxoleio h mia bibliothiki stin Nea Yorki? Posa ekatomiria exoune fai sto SAE
h stin ekpedeusi ton mi-Ellinon "metanaston"?

[snip]

> > Kai poioi einai oi "ennomoi"? Oi proin paranomoi pou tous edose to PASOK
> > xartia (an kai o nomos orizei tin filakisi kai apelasi tous)?
>
> Toulaxiston as meinoume se autous kai OXI na dexthoume kai allous,

Giati na meinoume se autous? Pariabiasane tous nomous tis Ellados? Orizei o
nomos oti prepei na apelathoun? H exoume h den exoume kratos me nomous kai
dikeo!?

> koita: Aytoi pouy exoun "prasinh karta" plhrwnoun Eforia, IKA, kai
> sthrizoun ta tamia. Ara einai thetiko gia thn Ellada. Ase pou den

Giati, bgazoun kerdos ta tameia? Pou to thetiko? Osa bazoun alla tosa
antloun.

> mporei to kathe afentiko na tous exei ANASFALISTOUS kai etsi den
> ginetai na rixnoun "hmeromhsthia". Opote ginontai antagwnistikoi kai
> oi Ellhnes, swsta?

Kai an tous apelasis, ti apotelesma tha eixe stin agora kai sta imeromisthia
ton Ellinon?

> Omws DEN mporoume na dexthoume allous giati: 1on) Hdh 1 stous 3
> allodapous *DEN* ERGAZETAI, me apotelesma h anergia stous allodapous
> na einai MEGALUTERH apo ayth tou ntopio pluthusmou kai

Opote, eisai uper tis apelasis tou 1/3?

> 2on:) Tous
> kanoume KAKO!!! PWS tha zhsoun an den exoun doulia??? H tha
> EKSATHLIWTHOUN H Tha katafugoun sto egklhma! Metanastes nai, alla me
> METRO kai N-O-M-I-M-A!

Afou ekanes tous paranomous nomimous, pios tha pei sou kainourgious
paranomous oti to idio den tha ginei 3ana melontika?

> > Den ton gnorizeis auto! O Allotrios thelei "evolution" kai an kanei h
ginaka
> > tou paidio mono me auton, mporei na exoume "in breeding" (dikies tou
kotsa..
> > ee.. filosofies).
> >
> Twra tha sou pw kamia koubenta... O Allotrios, *EIDIKA* *AYTOS*, einai
> apo kalh "PASTA" anthrwpou! Kai na mou to thumitheis. *SPANIA* peftw
> eksw se anthrwpous alla apo ton tropo grafhs tou blepw oti einai ena
> polu metriopathes-metrhmeno kai eugeniko atomo. Den exei KAMIA SHMASIA

O tupos eipe oti einai "in breeding" na kanei kapios Ellinas paidia me
Ellinida! Ti "pastes" kai galaktompourika thes na sizitisoume!?

> pou DIAFWNOUSE se ORISMENA themata. DEN mporoume na symfwnoume oloi!
> Eidika emeis oi Ellhnes etsi? ;-) Gia na eimai dikaios omws to
> ShutTheFuckUp den eprepe na to pei. Kai egw tha to thewrousa prosbolh.

Emena den me pira3e katholou. Tis asinartisies tou omos gia tin genia ton
papoudon mou den tis sikono.

[snip]

> > > Twra kati allo gia to oti "Oi Ellhnes den kanoun orismenes doulies".
> > > Re pallhkaria, stis ELIES kai sta AMPLELIA, stis OIKODOMES kai sta
> > > KARABIA POIOI douleuan prina apo MOLIS 15 xronia?????
> >
> > Ti psaxneis tora me autous? Exoume kai oikonomika stixia, alla ti sxesi
exi
> > h logiki me tis apopsis ton "proodeutikon"?
> >
> Psaxnw na brw atoma me ta opoia tha mporw POLITISMENA kai TEKMHRIWMENA
> na syzhthsw! Mono ayto! Atoma me kalh thelhsh kai MUALLO xwris
> "TAMPELES"(mas fagane oi "tampeles" pia)! Gia to an einai
> proodeutikoi....den thumamai na exoun pei oti einai....Pantws EMMENW
> sth thesh mou ayth: "stis ELIES kai sta AMPLELIA, stis OIKODOMES kai
> sta KARABIA, POIOI douleuan prina apo MOLIS 15 xronia?????" Ma fysika
> oi Paterades mas, oi PAppoudes mas, oi Manades mas. AYTOI DOULEYAN
> ENTIMA! gia ena MEROKAMATO!!! Kai as mou apodeiksei KANEIS to
> antitheto...Perimenw....

Kai simera, pios nomizeis oti kanei autes tis douleies? Apoklistika oi
allodapoi?

> > [snip]
> > > Na pw kai kati liga gia to egklhma. Lene oti oi Allodapoi genika den
> > > prokalesan aukshsh twn egklhmatwn.
> >
> > Pios anideos to leei auto? Asfalos den tha kitane ta stixia pou parexei
to
> > ipourgio dimosias ta3is.
>
> To kserw ayto. FYSIKA kai AYKSHTHIKAN kata polu kai einai APOLUTWS
> FYSIOLOGIKO! Afou DEN EXOUN DOULIA, DEN exoun na fane! ti tha
> kanoun??? EGKLHMA! Gia auto kai lew: STOP! OXI ALLOUS
> METANASTES!!(auto mou thumise ton Kourkoulo:"Oxi allo karbouno" ;-) !!
> KANOUME KAKO KAI SE EMAS ALLA POLU PERISSOTERO SE AYTOUS!!! DEN TO
> KATALABAINOUNE PIA????? PREPEI NA TOUS DOUME NA PSOFANE STOUS
> DROMOUS??? As parei o kathe PSEYTO-ARISTEROS-PROODEUTIKOS tou KWLOU
> apo 2-3 SPITI tou na tous taizei! E-L-E-O-S!!

Kai as kanoume kati pou kanoun alles xores. Ean exeis poiniko mitroo, den se
dexomaste. As doume posoi Albanoi tha minoun.

> > > Akouste: Apo ta EKSAKRIBWMENA
> > > EGKLHMATA to 50% twn ANTHRWPOKTONIWN
> > > tis exoun diapraksei Allodapoi, dhladh peripou to 10% tou plhthusmou!!
> >
> > Nomizo oti einai to 60%. Auto den exei pantos megali simasia. Simasia
exei
> > ti PROSFEROUN stin Ellada, ton Ellinismo, kai ston Ellina. Kai an kai
> > gnorizo arketa kala ta ARNITIKA, as mou pei kapios that "thetika" (kai
as
> > min kolisoun sta "koultouriarika").
> >
> Katalabainw ti les alla me thn idia logikh "Ti proseferan oi ELLHNES
> metanastes stis xwres pou phgan?"??....Ti???...Enas Germanos
> Amerikanos h Aystralos tha sou edine perissoteres plhrofories....

Gia na se PROSKALESOUN (giati piges stin presbeia, ekanes etisi, perimenes
xronia olokrira, se dextikan) kati prosferes pou xriazontan ekini h xora.
Exei h Ellada tetio sistima metanasteusis?

> > [snip]
> > > San na mhn eftane ayto statistika tou 2003
> > > deixnoun oti ENAS stous TREIS LATHROMETANASTES DEN ERGAZETAI!!
> >
> > Ti les!? O diarixtis, o emporas narkotikon, kai oloi oi alloi tis
"nuxtas"
> > douleia kanoun!
> >
> Exeis dikio alla DEN einai OLOI EGKLHMATIES! Mhn tous bazoume sto idio
> tsoubali! Gegonos einai omw oti exoun bash ayta pou les...Ta egklhmata
> pou thewrw ta PIO EIDEX8H, ta EGKLHMATA KATA ZWHS! exoun
> YPERDIPLASIASTEI!....
> Sigoura merikoi apo tous lathrometanastes eprepe na htan sth fulakh h
> na eixan apelathei! Opws uposthrizw,(kai mazi me mena kai to 80% twn
> Ellhnwn), oti OPOIOS ALLODAPOS KANEI SOBARO EGKLHMA, kai den ennow na
> klepsei "patatakia" apo to periptero gia na faei, that prepei na
> APELAUNETAI!! GIATI DEN DEIXNEI SEBASMO STH XWRA POU TON FILOKSENEI!!
> TELEIA KAI PAULA!
> EIMAI KATHETOS se ayto!

Giati prepei na einai sobaro? Prepei na perimenoume mexri na skotosoun gia
na tous dio3oume?

> > Ti "prosopika"? Den einai "prosopo" o gogu, mia anonymi aderfi einai pou
> > poula mouri. Ton eidame stin pra3i.
> >
> Apo thn pleura sou to blepeis etsi, alla sou eipa: mhn kaneis
> PRWSWPIKES epitheseis mesa apo dika mou "thread". Please. Exeis tous
> logous sou, tous SEBOMAi(opws SEBOMAI kai twn allwn) alla oxi mesa apo
> tetoia "post". Me katalabaineis...

Auto na to peis ston "gogu" ton anonymo pseuti, pou den exei problima na
mpenei sto thread.

> > Mexri stigmis parousiases akribos tis thesis pou exo sto thema.
> >
> Se merika nai, se alla pali oxi. Exeis mia tash na ta isopedwneis
> ola...tha matheis sth zwh oti den einai etsi...Gia pes mou: Sou aresei
> pou kai esena se "stoibazoun" merikoi mazi me th MAZA twn ANAGKEFALLWN
> "xountikwn" kai "akrodeksiwn"??

As pei o kathe EPONIMOS oti thelei. Ean exei stoixeia as ta parousiasi.

> Apo oso blepw den exeis kamia sxesh me
> ton PANHLHTHIO ton Pattako,

Sxesi me ton kurio Pattako den exo, an kai simfono apolita me tis apofasis
pou ekana stin stadiodromia tou (apo stratiotikos, se politikos, kai tora
politis). Prosopika episis mou fanike pane3ipnos (gia 91xronos), eugenikos,
kai poli thriskos.

> oute me alla ZWA pou blepw kata kairous sthn TV.

Gia pio "zwwn" milas?

> Den nomizw na sou aresei na se katatasoun me atoma xamhlhs morfwshs
> kai nohmosynhs.

Gia pia atoma milas? Auta pou aristeusan stis ta3is tous? Oso gia to pou me
katatasoun... eipame... me tous eponimous eukola diapistonoume tin alithia.

> Eisai eksypnos anthrwpos, ksereis na milas, alla exeis
> ena ellatwma: Ta isopedwneis olla gia tis idees sou. Den einai etsi
> file. Kai makari na allakseis gnwmh mesa apo to dialogo. Kai oi
> arxaioi eLLHNES EBAZAN "NERO STO KRASI TOUS" Prepei na dexomaste NEES
> IDEES! Swstes omws kai sigoura oxi blaberes gia thn Ellada kai ton
> Ellhnismo.

Pios exei tis nees idees, kai pios efarmozei tis "proodeutikes" idees tis
dekaetias tou 70? Ta pisteuo tou kathemianou prepei na ta ipostirizoun me
tin alithia kai me stoixeia. Me autous pou mporo kai exo dialogo, auta
akribos parousizo. Oi arxaioi Ellines den periorizan ton eleuthero logo kai
oute diastreulonan tin alithia kai tis apopsis tous gia na min "enonxlisoun"
to katestimeno h ta psemata pou pisteue h pliopsifia. H kathe epanastasi kai
h kathe anagenisi xriazete GERO krasi, kai oxi nerozoumi.

> > Kai na me prosebales den tha sou klafto, opos kanoun kapioi "magkes" tou
> > glukou nerou.
> >
> Pisteuw oti an synantiwsoun me kapoion apo aytous pou twra "miseis"
> estw kai "ideologika", pisteuw oti mallon tha ekseplhsosoun
> euxarista...Akou me pou sou lew...Twra bleppeis mono apsyxes
> grammes...Yparxei polu parapanw apo ayto. ;-)

Xexe... blepeis se autous pou ekana proslisi... ase ti psaxneis... meta tha
les oti arxisa pali prosopika.

> > Me tetios orous (idieteros to "Moggolous"), pos na min se perasoune gia
> > "fasista" kai "ratsisti?! :)
>
> Koita na deis. Oson afora thn "parth" mou, den thewrw to "Moggolos"
> meiwtiko. Moggoloi einai mia "ratsa" "fylh", opws emeis eimaste
> Indoeyrwpaioi(oso kia an exw kapoious endiasmous gia tous
> Indoeyrwpaious, alla den einai epi tou parontws na to
> sxoliasw)-Kaukasia fulh. Eksallou "Moggolikh" ratsa einai kai oi
> Kinezoi, oi Iapwnes, kai tosoi alloi. Ti paei na pei??

Den einai Moggoloi (oi Kinezoi kai oi Iapones). Kai oso kai an prospathis na
me pisis (pou den xriazete) pote den tha pisis tous "proodeutikous".

> i einai
> "katwteroi"?? OXI. Apla o logos pou tous to thumizw einai
> allos...Epeidh "KLEBOUN" thn istoria mas oi gamhmenoi! Phgene sth
> Efeso na deis ti tha sou pei o "perihghths" Oti ta eftiaksan leei oi
> "progonoi tous" Wre pate kala??? Poioi progonoi sas re Moggoloi??? Oi

Asfalos kai progonoi tous einai. Afou einai mpastardi ratsa, pos na min
einai kathe ti sti gi apo tou "progonous" tous?

Elpizo na min nomises oti exo ego teties apopsis...

> Eimai *ANENDOTOS* SE AUTO, opws ANENDOTOS eimai sto oti o Hlios
> anatellei apo thn Anatolh!! To exw BIWSEI, to exw dei ME TA IDIA MOU
> TA MATIA kai gia ayto den shkwnw MYGA STO SPATHI MOU!! An ALLAKSOUN
> KAI SEBASTOUN THN AKERAIOTHTA THS XWRAS MOU KAI AFHSOUN TIS
> ATHLIOTHTES POU KANOUN KATHIMERINA tote tha allaksw stash kai egw!
> Exeis dei piloto mas meta apo anaxaithsh???
> An ton deis tha ton luphtheirs! Milame na MHN mporeiu na bgei XWRIS
> BOHTHIA apo to cockpit, na ton SERNOUN "LIWMENO" sthn KURIOLEKSIA, na
> einai ENTONA MELLANIASMENOS apo ta allepallhla Gs kai me mona kokkina
> shmeia th muth tou kai to stoma tou, ekei pou "pianei" h maska
> oksugwnou. Kathimerina ayta ta pallhkaria PAIZOUN TH ZWH TOUS
> KWRWNA-GRAMMATA OXI GIA NA "maintain their living standards or to
> improve them" alla gia na mporoume OLOI EMEIS NA XAIROMASTE TA NHSIA
> MAS, TH THALLASA MAS, kai ta KALOKAIRIA MAS!! Tou BGAZW TO KAPELO KAI
> OSO ZW THA EXW MONO TA KALYTERA NA LEW GIA AYTOUS TOUS ANTHRWPOUS POU
> TO KRATOS TWN NEO-GRAIKYLWN KOPROSKULWN TOUS AMOIBEI MONO ME
> 400.000drx(sun kati GELEIA posa gia ta pththka!).
> Mexri na allaksoun "malli" oi tourkoi omws: TOURKOI MOGGOLOI
> DOLOFONOI!!
> Kai opoianou tou aresei!.-
> (Ksexasame KIOLAS ta IMIA??)!

Pia, ta Kardak? Apo oti thimame den iparxi Elliniki simea ekei. Kai o
Simitis euxaristise ton Klinton pou diorthose tin "pare3igisi" pou egine.

> > Se katalabeno apolita. Eimai malista pilotos kai mixanikos aeroskafon,
kai
> > eixa dosi gia tin Ikaron prin arketa xronia. Alla blepeis, ego eimai
"sapio
> > kreas" gia autous pou kibernoun, alla o Tsenai (kai ta alla paidia
> > allodapon) a3izoun isis metaxirisis!
> >
> Pisteuw ta exeis mperdepsei ligo edw: Koita na deis, kai egw hthela
> gia Ikarwn alla eixa Muwpia(den exw twra ekana Laser, xexe.. ;-) ! DEN
> mporosa na paw kai to katalaba. Exeis dikaiwma kai esy sta oneira sou
> apla kapoies fores den mas erxontai ola etsi opws ta theloume....mhn
> kathgoreis tous allous...kai sigoura eidika gia thn Ikarwn oxi tous
> metanastes...

Kai omos... SAPIO KREAS. Egrapsa 100% sto test tis Ikaron. Episis, eixa
teliosi aristouxos stis HPA, kai eixa kai diplomata pilotou kai mixanikou.
Alla blepeis, gia stratiotikes sxoles den mporeis na grapseis me tous
(ELLHNES) allodapous (ton Augousto-Septembri)... alla mono mazi me tous e3
Ellados mathites (arxes kalokairiou). Otan to kratos den mou parexei biblia
kai daskalous (sto e3oteriko) pos thelei na grapsi to SAPIO KREAS stin proti
desmi? Gia ton Tsenai kai ton kathe Tsenai exei na dosi, gia ton Ellinismo
pou ediokse sto e3oteriko san SAPIO KREAS, ti exei na prosferei?
Kolopro3enia pou xreonoun ta iperdiplasia ap'oti iperesies stin Ellada?

> Gia kapoio logw ta oneira mas DEN ginontai panta
> pragmatikothta...Exeis akousei to nomo tou Merphy? "Otan theleis kati
> polu einai san na exoun synwmwthsei oles oi dunameis tou sympantos
> enantiwn sou" Me liga logia, kati pou theleis na ginei exei ligoteres
> apo tis mises pithanothtes na pragmatopoihthei. Den pisteuw oti den
> prospathises...apla den egine...den pisteuw oti eisai "sapio kreas"
> gia thn Ellada, oute oti h "Ellada" se thewrhse "sapio kreas" epeidh
> den eixes thn tyxh na gineis Iptamenos ths Ikarwn(posa paidia eksallou
> DEN ginontai??APEIRA!

Auto htan ena apo ta polla pou mporousa na parousiaso. Oi Ellines tou
e3oterikou antimetopizonte apo to kratos san SAPIO KREAS. Mono otan theli h
kibernisi kati thimate ta "lobby" kai ton Ellinismo tou e3oterikou. Xriazete
h Ellada ergates? Pote parousiase eukeries stadiodromias h aples aggelies
stous Ellines tou e3oterikou (gia na epanapatristoun)?

> Ase mh sou pw kalutera gia ta BYSMATA pou bazoun
> oi bouleutes sthn Ikarwn kai se alles sxoles..An kapoios sou "efage"
> th thesh aytos tha htan kapoios pou eixe "Mparma stnn korwnh" kai htan
> sigoura "Ellhnas". Akou pou sou lew ;-) .
> Nai to kserw oti polles fores h Ellada TRWEI TA PAIDIA THS! To exw
> biwsei kai egw opws kai oi perissoteroi. Omws thn AGAPAME th
> "GAMHMENH", gia kapoion logo thn AGAPAME! Kai kseroume oti EPANW MAS
> THA BASISTEI OTAN ERTHEI H DYSKOLH WRA! Esy den to pisteueis auto??

Allo h patrida mou, kai allo to mpourdelokratos ton politikantidon.

> Ase tous GAMIOLHDES tous Bouleutes pou ta "PAirnoun apo pantou" kai
> xontrainoun tis mpakes tous sto Mpourdello.
> H Ellada kai o Ellhnismos den exei sxesh me thn ekastote morfh
> eksousias pou thn "kubernoun" sto perasma tou xronou. Einai kati POLU
> PIO BATHY apo mia GAMHMENH kratikh ontothta!! Ellhnismos einai h
> MEGALUTERH IDEA!! kai kati pou AKSIZEI STA SIGOURA NA POLLEMHSEIS GIA
> AYTO! Toulaxiston gia mena....

Otan oi "entos" ta katasrefoun ola, ti zitas apo tous "ektos"?

[snip]

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<68wsb.156404$pT1.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

To praksikopima kata tou Makariou.

[stardimi***]

Egw to blepw ligo diaforetika kai sygxoreste me an ayto poui tha pw
exei ksanaeipwthei alla den mporw na diabasw ola ta threads.

Ta symbola exoun aksia mono an paizoun to rolo ths synopsis ths
ousias. Dhladh ena symbolo opws h Elliniki simaia exei aksia an h
koinwnia einai foreas tou politismou pou symbolizei.

An antithetws ena symbolo einai ksekomeno apo thn pragmatikotita tote
metatrepetai arga alla stathera se anekdoto. Oxi mono ayto alla to
symbolo ginetai anikeimeno latreias olwn aytwn pou mh exontas kati
kallitero na parousiasoun se proswpiko kai koinwniko epipedo,
"kremiountai" apo tro symbolo kai prospathoun na antloun ap ayto
megalosynh. Enw stin pragmatikotita tha eprepe to Symbolo na antlei
apo aytous megalosynei. Tote to Symbolo pragmati tha symbolize th
megalosynh twn forewn tou.

Pera apo ayta ta thewritika as pame stin praksi. H Ellada einai mia
xwra pou tha th xarakthriza "symbololagna". H thliberi pragmatikotita
einai oti gia kapoious logous h xwra mas kai h koinwnia mas
ypoleitourgei se olous tous tomeis apodedeigmena kai me stampa.
Ypoleitourgei se koinwniko epipedo (blepe "matiasma" ws shmantiki
fobia twn Ellinwn, blepe eleipsi protoboulias, kyriarxeia fobiwn k.a.)
kai se kratiko epipedo (ekpaideysi, dhmosio, laikismos,
strouthokamilismos, apomonotismos k.a.) Fysika h koinwnia kathorizei
to kratos kai synepws ayta ta dyo einai syndedemena.

Yparxei loipon mia asymetria sto symbolismo ths simaias dhladh ths
megalosynhs to klassikou Arxaiou ellhnikou politismou, kai tis
prakshs, dhldh ths metriotitas, kai "xwrgiatosynhs" ths neo-ellinikis
pragmatikototas. H symbolo-lagneia symbolizei (...) thn apopeira to
Ellhna na drapeteysei apo ayth th nosirh pragmatikotita. Kai gi'ayto h
prostasia toy symbolou eixei perasei sto epipedo ths thrikeytikhs
latreias, sto epipedo tis misalodoksias.

Efoson h Elliniki kybernish pou psifistike apo tin pleiopsifia twn
Ellhnwn kathorise ws kritirio gia ti simaia, thn ypsiloteri
bathmologia, logoi abrofrosynhs, kalhs eygenikis symperiforas kai
dikaiosynhs tha ypagoreyan to aytonoito dikaioma tou Tsenai na
kratisei tin elliniki shmaia. Dioti kathe anthropos me koini logiki
kai mh epireasmenos apo nosiri symbolo-lagneia that skeytotan oti to
an kratisei tin elliniki shmaia enas kalos mathitis kai malista oxi
Ellinas den blaptei kat'anagkhn to symbolo. H Elliniki epanastasi den
prokeitai na anerethei an o Tsenai kratisei thn elliniki simaia. H
mnimh ths epanastashs den prokeitai na meiwthei an o Tsenai kratisei
ti shmaia. Antithetws einai timh gia th xwra otan enas allodapos
aisthanetai timh na shkwsei thn ellinikh Shmaia. Einai xarakthristiko
mias koinwnias anoixtomyalis, gennaiodoris, kosmopolitikis,
politismenhs, dikaihs, morfwmenhs, hpias, mh-misalodoksis, to na krata
enas allodapos thn ellinikh Shmaia. Fysika h Ellinikh koinwnia me tis
prakseis ths kai stis statistikes ereynes dixenei oti tipote apo ayta
den einai. Kai gi ayto eimaste opisthodromikoi, kakiasmenoi,
proliptikoi grafikoi typoi. To deixnoume kathe mera se oles tis
ekfanseis ths drastiriotitas mas, kai meta theloume kai politistikh
olympiada kounia pou mas kounage.

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1edf1f1b.03111...@posting.google.com...

> > Para3eno mou fenete oti o Papadopoulos, o Pattakos, h o Makarezos
efthinonte
> > gia to Kypriako! Pios ipograpse tis simfonies tis Zirixis kai Londinou?
Pios
> > h pioi diakibernousan ti xora to 1963 (pou efarmostike h "prasini
grami") h
> > to kalokairi tou 1974? Pia "DIKH tous aformh" prokalese tin isboli tis
> > Kyrpou?
>
> To praksikopima kata tou Makariou.

Ti sxesi exoun Papadopoulos, Pattakos, kai Makarezos me ta gegononta tou
1974?

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<JOsub.219029$pT1.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

e kala twra, den einai dyskwlo na katalabeis oti ennow th xounta
genika. Opws to idio ennwouse kai o proigoumenos. Egw bebaia den tha
katigourousa ti xounta giati ekane ena ilithio lathos, alla aplws
giati htan xounta...

[Hades]

jbo...@yahoo.co.uk (stardimi***) wrote in message news:<1edf1f1b.03111...@posting.google.com>...
[snip]

Eixa alla sto muallo mou gia shgmera, alla auto parapaei!....
Tha meiwsw kana-duo post gia thn propaganda twn kemalistwn tourkaladwn
kai tha "asxolhthw" me to "post" tou kuriou.."stardimi***" apo thn
Agglia.

Blepw file exeis pompwdeis ekfraseis kai malista
kathgorhmatikes-meiwtikes gia thn Ellada...alla sta perissotera shmeia
"peri allwn tyrbazeis". Loipooon.
As ta paroume ena ena, mono pou tha eimai syntomos giati berethika na
grafw katebata oloklhra.

> Egw to blepw ligo diaforetika kai sygxoreste me an ayto poui tha pw
> exei ksanaeipwthei alla den mporw na diabasw ola ta threads.

Sygxwremenos....;-) Oute ki egw tha grapsw polla.

> Ta symbola exoun aksia mono an paizoun to rolo ths synopsis ths
> ousias.

Oriste??????

> Dhladh ena symbolo opws h Elliniki simaia exei aksia an h
> koinwnia einai foreas tou politismou pou symbolizei.

Wraia, twra mas to'kanes pio "liana". Tote dhladh na to "kleisoume" to
"magazi"....Kai kati akoma: Allo "koinwnia" kai allo "kratos". Ta
exeis mperdepsei arketa.

> An antithetws ena symbolo einai ksekomeno apo thn pragmatikotita tote
> metatrepetai arga alla stathera se anekdoto.

Kala, "diabazeis" ti grafeis???????????Ti "pragmatikothta" kai
"symbolo"???
Dhladh h Ellhnikh shmaia TI symbolizei akribws??? Gia pes mas na
mathoume...
Mallon ta exeis psiloksexasei ta Ellhnika eis thn ksenitia pou eisai.
An kai upopsiazomai ti theleis na peis tha se sumbouleua na
xrhshmopoieis pio "aplh" glwssa kai nohmata giati ta "dyskola" den ta
katexeis, me olo to sebasmo.

> Oxi mono ayto alla to symbolo ginetai anikeimeno latreias olwn aytwn pou mh
> exontas kati kallitero na parousiasoun se proswpiko kai koinwniko epipedo,
> "kremiountai" apo tro symbolo kai prospathoun na antloun ap ayto
> megalosynh.

Poios "kremietai" apo th "shmaia"?????????Na mou eleges apo thn
"uperbolikh" apo merikous xrhsh ths arxaias Ellhnikhs Istorias na sou
elega oti exeis kapia bash...alla apo th..."shmaia"?? Eleos re
filaraki...tha mas "koufaneis"!

> Enw stin pragmatikotita tha eprepe to Symbolo na antlei
> apo aytous megalosynei.

E? Ti "megalosynh" kai prasina aloga tsampounas??? Ti einai h shmaia,
kanena eidos "erythrou staurou"?. Katalabainw ti tha htheles na peis
alla etsi opws ta "mpourdouklwneis"...Brasta "Xaralampe"...

> Tote to Symbolo pragmati tha symbolize th
> megalosynh twn forewn tou.

Nath pali h "megalosynh"...Gia th SHMAIA milame Mister! An theleis
"magalosynh" phgaine se kanena ydruma "megalosynhs"... ;-)
Fantasou apla mia ALLH shmaia, px, th Germanikh. Ti symbolizei
th...Megalosynh twn Germanwn?? Siga mh symbolizei kai th Bavaria Motor
Works, kata kosmon BMW kai "mpempa", -:) Ta'xeis mpleksei re file...

> Pera apo ayta ta thewritika as pame stin praksi.

Makari, giati sth "thewria"...asta kalutera....ESKISES!! ;-)

> H Ellada einai mia xwra pou tha th xarakthriza "symbololagna".

Oriste?? An kai tha *EPREPE*, giati exoume MAKRAN th megaluterh
istorikh diadromh apo olous sxedon, dustuxws den eimaste! Fainetai oti
ekei sthn Agglia h ygrasia ephrrease th mnhmh sou giati se plhroforw
oti OUTE MIA ELLHNIKH SHMAIA DEN YPARXEI STO KOINOBOULIO, STH BOULH!
Kai gia kane mia bolta sthn Athina *EKTOS* twn ethnikwn eortrwn kai
pes mou POSES Ellhnikes shmaies tha breis anarthmenes!!(kai opoies
breis, AN breis, se *TI* katastash tha tis breis) ELEOS!! Mh leme oti
theloume!!!!! PALI mperdeueis ISTORIA me SYMBOLA!! Ksemperdeuta kai
ela na suzhthsoume!!!

> H thliberi pragmatikotita einai oti gia kapoious logous h xwra mas kai h
> koinwnia mas ypoleitourgei se olous tous tomeis apodedeigmena kai me
> stampa.

PALI mperdepses thn poutsa me thn bourtsa!! Ksana-mana: To KRATOS, NAI
to SAPISMENO DIMIOURGHMA TWN NEO-GRAIKULWN TO OPOIO KAI SIXAINOMAI,
OPWS SIXAINOMAI KAI AUTOUS POU TO SYNTHROUN DEN EXEI KAMIA APOLUTWS
SXESH ME THN ELLHNIKH KOINWNIA!!! ALLO KRATOS-KRATIKOS MHXANISMOS kai
ALLO KOINWNIA!!
K-S-E-M-P-E-R-D-E-U-T-A!! A, kai parousiase mou se parakalw kai
th...Stampa!
Kati san to "Karpouzia me th boula, h Chiquita"...

> Ypoleitourgei se koinwniko epipedo (blepe "matiasma" ws shmantiki
> fobia twn Ellinwn, blepe eleipsi protoboulias, kyriarxeia fobiwn k.a.)
> kai se kratiko epipedo (ekpaideysi, dhmosio, laikismos,
> strouthokamilismos, apomonotismos k.a.)

Blepw arxises na kaneis ena "diaxwrismo" metaksy "kratous" kai
"koinwnias" alla me lathemeno sumperasma sto telos. Prwta ap' ola
stereisai sobarothtas an parousiazeis to "matiasma" ws fobia twn
Ellhnwn. Gia na MATHEIS, giati milas XWRIS na GNWRIZEIS kai DEN
gnwrizeis, to "matiasma" agaphte, h "Baskania" YPHRXE sthn ARXAIA
ELLADA kai malusta se MEGALUTERO BATHMO!!! Diabase na
"ksestrabwtheis"!!! Kai ephseis EPHSTHMONIKA exei kapoia bash: Agnoeis
to gegonos oti TO KATHE XRWMA EKPEMPEI-EXEI KAI DIAFORETIKH
SYXNOTHTA???? Den tha epeiseltw se leptomeroies, den einai epi tou
parontws. Oso gia thn ELLEIPSH PRWTOBOULIWN apo thn ELLHNIKH KOINWNIA
ti na sou pw...EISAI BATHIA NUXTWMENOS!!!! OPOTE xreiasthke h
ELLHNIKOI KOINWNIA kai oi ELLHNES KHNITOPOIHTHIKAN kai malista me to
PARAPANW!!! AN hsoun sthn Ellada tha to eblepes. Oson afora to KRATOS,
ta les POLU SWSTA!!! KAI EGW EIMAI MAZI SOU!!!
KATW TO KRATOS TWN NEO-GRAIKULWN POLITIKWN-PSEUTOARISTERWN TOU KWLOU!!

> Fysika h koinwnia kathorizei to kratos kai synepws ayta ta dyo einai
> syndedemena.

Polles fores OXI!. Exeis akoush gia "propaganda", apaksiwsh ths
politikh zwhs, sapilas, ktl, ktl???? To kratos DEN kathorizei thn
koinwnia! OXI panta toulaxiston!! Skepsou mono periodous KATOXHS apo
KSENH DUNAMH, Diktatories, Oloklhrwtika kathestwta, diabase thn
sygxronh alla kai thn arxaia istoria kai tha katalabeis-matheis
polla...

> Yparxei loipon mia asymetria sto symbolismo ths simaias dhladh ths
> megalosynhs to klassikou Arxaiou ellhnikou politismou,

OUF! PALI auth h...MEGALOSYNH!!! Kai gia pes mou: EIXAN AYTH TH SHMAIA
OI ARXAIOI ELLHNES????? HTAN OLOI *ENA* KRATOS?????? Eixan mia
"Shmaia" oloi????
Kala ta "wraia" logia alla na KSEROUME TI LEME GIA NA SYZHTHSOUME
SWSTA!!!

> kai tis prakshs, dhldh ths metriotitas, kai "xwrgiatosynhs" ths
> neo-ellinikis pragmatikototas.

"Xwriatosunh"??? Aaa, exeis xasei epeisodia filarako. Exeis meinei
pisw. Exeis thn antilhpsh ths "Pswrokwstainas" pou htan tis perasmenes
dekaeties.
Akou POLU PERILHPTIKA: H Ellada PERASE APO TIS EKSHS KAKOUXIES(Kai
bres mou ena ANTISTOIXO EYRWPAIKO KRATOS POU NA EXEI PERASEI TA IDIA
KAI NA EINAI SE KALUTERH KATASTASH): 400 XRONIA TOURKOKRATIA! O
Ellhnikos pluthismos apo 30 EKATOMURIA to 1453 EMEINE LIGOTEROS APO 1
Ekatomurio sthn Ellada to 1821 kai eixe 1-2 Ekatomuria sthn upoloiph
eyrwph! Meta apo peripou 90 xronia eixame tous BALKANIKOUS, amesws
meta ton PRWTO PAGKOSMIO, AMESWS meta thn MIKRASIATIKH KATASTROFH(ti
sou lew twra..), META apo 18 MOLIS xronia eixame to DEUTERO PAGKOSMIO
KAI THN KATOXH APO TOUS GERMANOUS OPOU ERHMWTHIKE H XWRA OLOKLHRH KAI
OPOU ANALOGIKA ME TON PLUTHUSMO MAS EIXAME TA PERISSOTERA THUMATA! 600
XILIADES SE 3 XRONIA!! META sto "kapaki" eixame ton EMFYLIO, ktl,
ktl... Oxi kai liga etsi????? Kai TOLMAS na apokaleis thn Ellada kai
to LAO ths meta apo osa exoun perasei, "xwriatosynh", tromara sou!

> H symbolo-lagneia symbolizei (...) thn apopeira to
> Ellhna na drapeteysei apo ayth th nosirh pragmatikotita.

Mpaaa, gia ayto exoun ta "tripakia" kai ta alla "kaloudia". Ta exoun
kai sto Londino, den xreiazetai na psakseis polu, tha sou broun ta
filarakia sou.

> Kai gi'ayto h prostasia toy symbolou eixei perasei sto epipedo ths
> thrikeytikhs latreias, sto epipedo tis misalodoksias.

Pssssss, PW-PW NOHMA!! Ola ayta sth Ellada tou shmera re thirio???
Ti les re file.. Fainetai oti ta "blepeis" kalutera apo to Londino.
Paw "paso". "Kati" parapanw tha "gnwrizeis" esy.

> Efoson h Elliniki kybernish pou psifistike apo tin pleiopsifia twn
> Ellhnwn kathorise ws kritirio gia ti simaia, thn ypsiloteri
> bathmologia,

Mata luphs se plhroforw oti MEXRI TWRA POU MILAME PREPEI NA EINAI
ELLHN YPHKOOS KAPOIOS GIA NA SHKWSEI AYTO TO "Lagno" OPWS LES
SYMBOLO!! An "pshfhsoun" allo nomo mellontika, ok. Alla MEXRI TWRA
O-X-I!
MONO ELLHN YPHKOOS!!! Understood??

> logoi abrofrosynhs, kalhs eygenikis symperiforas kai
> dikaiosynhs tha ypagoreyan to aytonoito dikaioma tou Tsenai na
> kratisei tin elliniki shmaia. Dioti kathe anthropos me koini logiki
> kai mh epireasmenos apo nosiri symbolo-lagneia that skeytotan oti to
> an kratisei tin elliniki shmaia enas kalos mathitis kai malista oxi
> Ellinas den blaptei kat'anagkhn to symbolo.

HELLO!! Is there ANYBODY HOME???? Kala ta exeis kanei AXTARMA!!! Sto
muallo sou ola einai poures!!! Gia pes mou kati: TI GIORTAZOUMME THN
28h OKTWMBRIOU??? Ton..."Kalutero Mathith"? H thn EISODO THS ELLADOS
STO 2o PAGKOSMIO POLEMO KAI TO NIKHFORO AGWNA THS KATA TOU
FASISMOU???? Gia th BRABEUSH twn kaluterwn mathitwn alla kai gia
logous "ABROSUNHS" mhn anushxeis katholou: EXOUME THESPISEI OUK OLIGA
BRABEIA KAI ARISTEIA!!PERISSOTERA APO ALLA "EYRWOPAIKA" KRATH!! ALLO H
BRABEUSH TOU KALUTEROU MATHITH KAI ALLO H 28 OKTWBRIOU!!!
ELPIZW NA KATALABAINEIS TH DIAFORA!!! DEN EIPA NA MHN PAREI ARISTEIO
GIA TH BATHMOLOGIA TOU! EIPA NA MHN PAREI TH SHMAIA!!. KAI OPOIOS
KATALABAINEI KAI DEN THELEI NA "PAIZEI" ME TIS LEKSEIS KATALABAINEI
POLU KALA!.-

> H Elliniki epanastasi den prokeitai na anerethei an o Tsenai kratisei thn
> elliniki simaia. H mnimh ths epanastashs den prokeitai na meiwthei an o
> Tsenai kratisei ti shmaia.

????????? "EPANASTASH"???? Mallon mperdepses thn 28h Oktwbriou me thn
25h Martiou. O "Ellhnas" daskalos sou ths istorias thelei ksylo!

> Antithetws einai timh gia th xwra otan enas allodapos
> aisthanetai timh na shkwsei thn ellinikh Shmaia.

KSANA-MANA! TI DOULIA EXEI H 28h OKTWBRIOU ME TON "KALUTERO"
MATHITH?????
Kai mhn ksexname milame gia ELLHNIKH GIORTH KAI ELLHNIKES PARELASEIS!!
HDH PISTEUW OTI ME TO NA TOUS DINOUME TSAMPA PAIDIA, AN MH TI ALLO
tous feromaste POLU KALA! Exw kai egw filous pou DEN "gennhthikan"
Ellhnes, alla otan xreiasthke "shkwsan" thn Ellhnikh shmaia pshla kai
OXI se "parelaseis".
Yparxoun Ellhnes pou DEN gennhthikan Ellhnes alla EGINAN perissotero
"Ellhnes" apo pollous apo emas! Allo to ENA Allo to ALLO!
(Me thn eukairia DEN eides ths synenteuksh tou.."Tsenai" ston
Truantafullopoulo! Oloi eseis pou lete auta, den tha kserate TI na
peite!!)

> Einai xarakthristiko mias koinwnias anoixtomyalis, gennaiodoris, > kosmopolitikis, politismenhs, dikaihs, morfwmenhs, hpias, mh-misalodoksis, > to na krata enas allodapos thn ellinikh Shmaia.

OLA auta pou eipes EIMASTE KAI ME TO PARAPANW!! Re gia pes mou: SE
POIA EYRWPAIKH XWRA MPHKAN MAZEMENA TOSOI PARANOMOI METANASTES?? XWRIS
EGRAFA, XWRIS TIPOTA!!!!!! KAi mou tsampounas oti "den eimaste dikaioi
kai anoixtomualloi"???? Gia phgaine sth GERMANIA etsi, PARANOMA XWRIS
XARTIA, na doume an tha...."kaloperaseis"! Alla KSEREIS giati ta les
auta??? GIATI *DEN*
ZEIS EDW, kai an "pernas" eisai "PERASTIKOS", Oi apopseis sou einai
PERA GIA PERA LATHOS!!! To mono swsto pou eipes htan gia to kratos pou
einai SAPIO kai bouthgmeno MEXRI TO LAIMO STO SKATO kai DEN EFARMOZEI
*OUTE* TOUS NOMOUS!

> Fysika h Ellinikh koinwnia me tis prakseis ths kai stis statistikes ereynes
> dixenei oti tipote apo ayta den einai.

"Fronthse" to kratos gia ayto! Kai se RWTW: AN STHN GERMANIA TO KRATOS
DEN TOUS PAREIXE ASFALEIA, OI GERMANOI POLITES DEN THA AISTHANONTOUSAN
ABOLA ENANTIWN TWN ALLODAPWN??? EDW ANOIKSAN TIS FULAKES OI ALBANOI
KAI MAS ESTEILAN OLOUS TOUS BARYPINITES!!!

> Kai gi ayto eimaste opisthodromikoi, kakiasmenoi,
> proliptikoi grafikoi typoi. To deixnoume kathe mera se oles tis
> ekfanseis ths drastiriotitas mas, kai meta theloume kai politistikh
> olympiada kounia pou mas kounage.

GRAFIKOS kai KAKIASMENOS eisai kai fainesai! Kai epeidh to PARAEKANES
APOKALWNTAS TOUS ELLHNES "OPISTHODROMIKOUS" ARPA STH "MAPA" ENA
ARTHRAKI GIA TOUS BARYPOINITES ALBANOUS OI OPOIOI ESTW KAI AN EXOUN
KANEI BARUTATES KAKOURGHMATIKES ENERGEIES TO "KRATOS" DEN TOUS
APELAUNEI OPWS SE OLA TA ALLA KRATH THS EURWPAIKHS ENWSHS!! Afierwmeno
se sena filarako!!! Alla tha eprepe na htan dikos sou anthrwpos autos
pou twra talaipwreitai epeidh to "opisthodromiko" "kratos" DEN
APELAUNEI TA KATHIKIA POU KANOUN EGKLHMATA!!
Kai meta TOLMAS kai les tous Ellhnes kakiasmenous!!
PS
Katse ekei pou kathese, mhn ertheis pisw...eimaste "opisthodromikoi"
edw...
Ennoeitai oti oute gia kalokairi etsi??? Sthn "opisthodromikh" Ellada
ths Eurwpaikhs enwshs pou akoma oi anthrwpoi "matiazontai" esy den
exeis kamia doulia? Etsi den einai??
Pare kai thn "opisthodromikh" kai "ksenofobikh" afierwsh twra:

-*Murderous_road_rage_attack*(December 22, 2002)

An Albanian *drug_dealer* has been charged with attempted murder for
an Athens road rage attack in which he allegedly drove his car into a
motorcycle causing it to crash, reports said yesterday.

The motorcycle driver, 38-year-old male nurse Giorgos Koukoulidis, and
his passenger, a 28-year-old woman whose name was not made public,
suffered horrific injuries when their motorbike crashed on high-speed
Syngrou Avenue on Sunday night as Koukoulidis swerved to avoid a car
driven by Albanian national Georgios Ziberi, 34, a convicted drug
dealer. Ziberi then sped off, but police got his registration number
from witnesses and arrested him in his Piraeus home on Tuesday.

Police said Ziberi, who had been told off by Koukoulidis for dangerous
driving, started swearing at the couple and suddenly drove at them,
causing the biker to lose control. Koukoulidis needed to have both his
hands amputated, while his companion lost one hand.

Ziberi, who was deported last year after serving a three-year jail
term, was charged with attempted murder and grievous bodily harm.

---

I hope you enjoyed it, "progressive" guy.

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1edf1f1b.03111...@posting.google.com...

> > Ti sxesi exoun Papadopoulos, Pattakos, kai Makarezos me ta gegononta tou
> > 1974?
>
> e kala twra, den einai dyskwlo na katalabeis oti ennow th xounta
> genika.

Gia pia "xounta" milas? As dieukrinisoume gia pia kubernisi milame. Prota
ap'ola, den ipirxe "xounta", kai sigoura h kubernisis tis Epanastaseos
teliosan to ergo tous ton Oktombrio tou 1973 (otan anelabe tin kibernisi o
Markezinis). O oros "xounta" xrisimopiithike apo tous aristerous (tous
idious pou thelane na bgaloune tin Ellada apo EOK kai NATO) kai kamia sxesi
den exei me to kratos dikeou pou dimiourgithike mate tis 21 Apriliou 1967.

Oti htan kratos me nomous the thesmous exei anagnoristi apo tis
"dimokratikes" kibernisis pou akolouthisan (gi'auto kai efarmozonte AKOMA
arketoi nomoi tis dithen "xountas"). Asfalos xriastike na xrisimopiithi
tetios oros giati diktatoria (kai diktaktora) den ipirxe.

> Opws to idio ennwouse kai o proigoumenos. Egw bebaia den tha
> katigourousa ti xounta giati ekane ena ilithio lathos, alla aplws
> giati htan xounta...

Parousiase stixia pou dixnoun oti itan ontos "xounta".

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<%5Oub.240051$pT1....@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

Kserw go, gia pes mou, se poies ekloges psifistike h "epanastash" kai
se poies ksanapsifistike kai ti pososta phre.

[stardimi***]

tartarus...@mail.gr (Hades) wrote in message news:<93768136.03111...@posting.google.com>...

> jbo...@yahoo.co.uk (stardimi***) wrote in message news:<1edf1f1b.03111...@posting.google.com>...
> [snip]
>
> Eixa alla sto muallo mou gia shgmera, alla auto parapaei!....
> Tha meiwsw kana-duo post gia thn propaganda twn kemalistwn tourkaladwn
> kai tha "asxolhthw" me to "post" tou kuriou.."stardimi***" apo thn
> Agglia.
>
> Blepw file exeis pompwdeis ekfraseis kai malista
> kathgorhmatikes-meiwtikes gia thn Ellada...alla sta perissotera shmeia
> "peri allwn tyrbazeis". Loipooon.
> As ta paroume ena ena, mono pou tha eimai syntomos giati berethika na
> grafw katebata oloklhra.
>
> > Egw to blepw ligo diaforetika kai sygxoreste me an ayto poui tha pw
> > exei ksanaeipwthei alla den mporw na diabasw ola ta threads.
>
> Sygxwremenos....;-) Oute ki egw tha grapsw polla.
>
> > Ta symbola exoun aksia mono an paizoun to rolo ths synopsis ths
> > ousias.
>
> Oriste??????
>
> > Dhladh ena symbolo opws h Elliniki simaia exei aksia an h
> > koinwnia einai foreas tou politismou pou symbolizei.
>
> Wraia, twra mas to'kanes pio "liana". Tote dhladh na to "kleisoume" to
> "magazi"....Kai kati akoma: Allo "koinwnia" kai allo "kratos". Ta
> exeis mperdepsei arketa.

Egw anaferomai olistika stin Ellada kai sto simeio afto den diaxorizw
koinwnia kai kratos. Allwste kai h kybernish meros ths koinwnias
einai.

>
> > An antithetws ena symbolo einai ksekomeno apo thn pragmatikotita tote
> > metatrepetai arga alla stathera se anekdoto.
>

>Ti "pragmatikothta" kai

> "symbolo"???
> Dhladh h Ellhnikh shmaia TI symbolizei akribws???

Eksartatai poion rwtas. An rwtas emena egw lew oti h shmaia symbolizei
ton ellhniko politismo apo toys arxaious xronous maxri simera. Epishs
symbolizei thn Ethnikh palligenesia opws leme emeis oi londrezoi...
Omws h poiothta tou neo-ellhnikou politismou exei megalyterh symboliki
aksia apo thn arxaia istoria gia profaneis logous. To lathos pou
kanoun orismenoi san kai sena einai oti me kapoies dikaiologies
epilegoun na agnwoun thn shmerinh pragmatikotita kai protassoun to oti
"eimaste oi kallhteroi" enw sthn pragmatikotita eimaste oi xeirwteroi.

> An kai upopsiazomai ti theleis na peis ...

Afou yposiazesai, apanta stin ousia kai ase ta sxolia.

>
> > Oxi mono ayto alla to symbolo ginetai anikeimeno latreias olwn aytwn pou mh
> > exontas kati kallitero na parousiasoun se proswpiko kai koinwniko epipedo,
> > "kremiountai" apo tro symbolo kai prospathoun na antloun ap ayto
> > megalosynh.
>
> Poios "kremietai" apo th "shmaia"?????????Na mou eleges apo thn
> "uperbolikh" apo merikous xrhsh ths arxaias Ellhnikhs Istorias na sou
> elega oti exeis kapia bash...alla apo th..."shmaia"?? Eleos re
> filaraki...tha mas "koufaneis"!

Ma einai syndedemena. H shmaia symbolizei metaksy allwn kai thn
istoria mas.

>
> > Enw stin pragmatikotita tha eprepe to Symbolo na antlei
> > apo aytous megalosynei.
>
> E? Ti "megalosynh" kai prasina aloga tsampounas??? Ti einai h shmaia,
> kanena eidos "erythrou staurou"?. Katalabainw ti tha htheles na peis
> alla etsi opws ta "mpourdouklwneis"...Brasta "Xaralampe"...
>
> > Tote to Symbolo pragmati tha symbolize th
> > megalosynh twn forewn tou.
>
> Nath pali h "megalosynh"...Gia th SHMAIA milame Mister! An theleis
> "magalosynh" phgaine se kanena ydruma "megalosynhs"... ;-)
> Fantasou apla mia ALLH shmaia, px, th Germanikh. Ti symbolizei
> th...Megalosynh twn Germanwn?? Siga mh symbolizei kai th Bavaria Motor
> Works, kata kosmon BMW kai "mpempa", -:) Ta'xeis mpleksei re file...
>

Ma akribws! O germanos pou sikwnei th shmaia otan kerdizei ena xryso
metallio giati th sikwnei kai dakryzei? Giati symbolizei thn
anwterothta ths xwras tou opws aytos thn antilambanetai. Meros tou
symbolismou einai kai h BMW einai oi diafores texnologies pou
kathorizoun tin zwh mas shmera kai alla. Otan o Kenteris sikwnei th
Ellhnikh shmaia dakryzei giati einai yperifanos pou aytos prosedwse
sto symbolo aksia! Einai yperifanos pou einai kalos ellhnas
apodedeigmena kai h shmaia symbolizei thn Ellada. Pou einai to erwtima
sou?

> > Pera apo ayta ta thewritika as pame stin praksi.
>
> Makari, giati sth "thewria"...asta kalutera....ESKISES!! ;-)
>

Eyxaristw

> > H Ellada einai mia xwra pou tha th xarakthriza "symbololagna".
>
> Oriste?? An kai tha *EPREPE*, giati exoume MAKRAN th megaluterh
> istorikh diadromh apo olous sxedon, dustuxws den eimaste! Fainetai oti
> ekei sthn Agglia h ygrasia ephrrease th mnhmh sou giati se plhroforw
> oti OUTE MIA ELLHNIKH SHMAIA DEN YPARXEI STO KOINOBOULIO, STH BOULH!
> Kai gia kane mia bolta sthn Athina *EKTOS* twn ethnikwn eortrwn kai
> pes mou POSES Ellhnikes shmaies tha breis anarthmenes!!(kai opoies
> breis, AN breis, se *TI* katastash tha tis breis) ELEOS!! Mh leme oti
> theloume!!!!! PALI mperdeueis ISTORIA me SYMBOLA!! Ksemperdeuta kai
> ela na suzhthsoume!!!
>

Ma re megale, h shmaia einai to symbolo kai h istoria einai to
"gegonos". Toso dyskwlo einai na katalabeis oti ayta ta dyo einai
arrikta syndedemena? Telika esy fainetai na diafwneis stous orismous
para stin ousia.

> > H thliberi pragmatikotita einai oti gia kapoious logous h xwra mas kai h
> > koinwnia mas ypoleitourgei se olous tous tomeis apodedeigmena kai me
> > stampa.
>

> To KRATOS, NAI
> to SAPISMENO DIMIOURGHMA TWN NEO-GRAIKULWN TO OPOIO KAI SIXAINOMAI,
> OPWS SIXAINOMAI KAI AUTOUS POU TO SYNTHROUN DEN EXEI KAMIA APOLUTWS
> SXESH ME THN ELLHNIKH KOINWNIA!!! ALLO KRATOS-KRATIKOS MHXANISMOS kai
> ALLO KOINWNIA!!
> K-S-E-M-P-E-R-D-E-U-T-A!! A, kai parousiase mou se parakalw kai
> th...Stampa!
> Kati san to "Karpouzia me th boula, h Chiquita"...

Katarxas egw diafwnw katheta, orizontia kai.. diagwnia me to ...allo
kratos kai allo koinwnia. Enai ena kai to ayto. Einai oi dyo opseis
tou idiou nomismatos.
Oso gia ti stampa, den exeis para nadeis oles tis statistikes metaksy
eyrwpaikwn kratwn se tomeis oikonomias, koinwnias klp. Epishs des tn
ereyna aytou tou typa pou ebgale to matiasma ws shmantikh fobia. Den
ksereis oti o mesos ellhnas blepei 2.5 wres thn hmera thleorash! Mesos
oros! Ayto den eixnei plhrh koinwnikh allwtriwsh kai adraneia. Akoma
kai ta kala pou eixame ta xanoume. Eixame makrozwia, xrono me to xrono
th xanoume. Eixame xamhla narkwtika, xrono me to xrono ayksanontai
katakoryfa. Exoume ypogennitikotita kai parallhla persy eixame 250000
ektrwseis! Dhladh skata exoume sto kefali mas? Ti sto diaolo ginetai?
To kratos ftaiei eee? Oxi to oti gia paradeigma opws fantazomai, to
oti ta misa ektrwmata htan "paranoma" mh apodekta koinwnikws? Oi
koinwnikes agkylwseis, ta taboo, h adraneia kai h agneia einai ayta
pou efthynontai kai gia tis strouthokamilikes kyberniseis pou mas
kabalane alla kai gia oles tis kakodemonies pou sparazoun ayto ton
topo. Kai o logos pou xrhsimopoiw sklirh glwssa den einai giati
areskwmai sto na prosballw kapoious alla giati blepw oti siga siga h
kakomoiro-mizero-nootropia tis adraneias, tis apaksiwsis tis gnwsis
kai tis aksias tou na eisai sthn koryfh *TWRA* kai oxi prin dyo
xiliades xronia, h nootropia ayth AYKSANETAI, den meiwnetai. Olo kai
perissoteroi paretountai stin aynanistiki symbololatreia, kai
istoriolatria. Den xreiazontai kolakies toy typou "eimaste oi
kallhtaroi". Klotsies xreiazontai gia na ksypnisoume. Egw ta lew ayta
giati thelw na eimaste oi kallhteroi.

>
>
> > Ypoleitourgei se koinwniko epipedo (blepe "matiasma" ws shmantiki
> > fobia twn Ellinwn, blepe eleipsi protoboulias, kyriarxeia fobiwn k.a.)
> > kai se kratiko epipedo (ekpaideysi, dhmosio, laikismos,
> > strouthokamilismos, apomonotismos k.a.)
>
> Blepw arxises na kaneis ena "diaxwrismo" metaksy "kratous" kai
> "koinwnias" alla me lathemeno sumperasma sto telos. Prwta ap' ola
> stereisai sobarothtas an parousiazeis to "matiasma" ws fobia twn
> Ellhnwn. Gia na MATHEIS, giati milas XWRIS na GNWRIZEIS kai DEN
> gnwrizeis, to "matiasma" agaphte, h "Baskania" YPHRXE sthn ARXAIA
> ELLADA kai malusta se MEGALUTERO BATHMO!!! Diabase na
> "ksestrabwtheis"!!!

To oti to matiasma yphrxe prin apo 3000 xronia den exw kamia
amfibolia. Opws to oti sfazane bodia gia na ikanopoioun toys theous.
Shmera pou o anthrwpos exei ftasei ston Arh, einai NTROPH na eimaste
proliptikoi. Giati peri aytou prokeitai. Posoi pane se rwsides
medium... ase tis epistimonikes mparoufes twra.

> Kai ephseis EPHSTHMONIKA exei kapoia bash: Agnoeis
> to gegonos oti TO KATHE XRWMA EKPEMPEI-EXEI KAI DIAFORETIKH
> SYXNOTHTA???? Den tha epeiseltw se leptomeroies, den einai epi tou
> parontws.

Ase megale, fysikos eimai kai me... stampa Chiquita sou lew oti les
malakies.

> Oso gia thn ELLEIPSH PRWTOBOULIWN apo thn ELLHNIKH KOINWNIA
> ti na sou pw...EISAI BATHIA NUXTWMENOS!!!! OPOTE xreiasthke h
> ELLHNIKOI KOINWNIA kai oi ELLHNES KHNITOPOIHTHIKAN kai malista me to
> PARAPANW!!!

Egw den milaw gia diadilwseis alla gia protobouleies se proswpiko
epipedo. Kai mhlaw statistika, den anaferwme sthn kathola yparkth
omada anthrwpwn pou ergazontai kai proodeyoun xwris polla logia.
Anaferomai stoys kafenobious (metaforika) pou kathontai se mia
kafeteria h se ena grafeio kai skeytontai pws tha bgei kai h epomenh
mera xwris na kanoun tipota gia na allaksoun ayth ti mizergia ths
kathimerinothtas tous. Kai fysika brizoun to kratos. Pou kai ayto
ftaiei alla afou oi idioi to psifisan...

> AN hsoun sthn Ellada tha to eblepes. Oson afora to KRATOS,
> ta les POLU SWSTA!!! KAI EGW EIMAI MAZI SOU!!!
> KATW TO KRATOS TWN NEO-GRAIKULWN POLITIKWN-PSEUTOARISTERWN TOU KWLOU!!
>
> > Fysika h koinwnia kathorizei to kratos kai synepws ayta ta dyo einai
> > syndedemena.
>
> Polles fores OXI!.

Tis perissoteres fores NAI!

> Exeis akoush gia "propaganda",

Dhladh ypotheteis oti oloi plin esou den antilambanontai thn
propaganda kai synepws einai blakes. Alla esy o eksypnos thn
katalabeneis. Ayto einai basiko lathos, giati mia dimokratia KAT
EKSOXIN stirizetai sto atomo. Stin krisi kai stin eksypnada toy. Dens
tirizetai se "daskalous", xeiragogous, kai dhmagogous... Sto ATOMO.
Thymisou to ayto.

> apaksiwsh ths politikh zwhs, sapilas, ktl, ktl????

Nai exw akousei, alla epishs kserw oti sto nisi apo opou katagwmai
bgazoun ayton pou kanei ta pio polla rouysfetia gia bouleyth. Ama
aytoi oi xaxolo-kafroi den mporoun na doun ligo pio makrya apo to
poses gides tha tous dosei o bouleytis gia na ton bgaloun, tote poios
eythynetai gia to oti oi politikoi einai aytoi pou einai? Afou
dimokratia exoume, stayros yparxei, giati oi skatoxwrgiates bgazoun
ton arxigo tou rousfetiou? Kai meta ftaiei to kratos eee?

> To kratos DEN kathorizei thn
> koinwnia! OXI panta toulaxiston!! Skepsou mono periodous KATOXHS apo
> KSENH DUNAMH, Diktatories, Oloklhrwtika kathestwta, diabase thn
> sygxronh alla kai thn arxaia istoria kai tha katalabeis-matheis
> polla...
>

Nai alla tipota apo ayta den symbenei twra. Ase twra tis ethnikes
katastrofes. Dhmokratia exoume kai diabase parapanw na deis pws thn
xrisimopoioume.

> > Yparxei loipon mia asymetria sto symbolismo ths simaias dhladh ths
> > megalosynhs to klassikou Arxaiou ellhnikou politismou,
>
> OUF! PALI auth h...MEGALOSYNH!!! Kai gia pes mou: EIXAN AYTH TH SHMAIA
> OI ARXAIOI ELLHNES????? HTAN OLOI *ENA* KRATOS?????? Eixan mia
> "Shmaia" oloi????
> Kala ta "wraia" logia alla na KSEROUME TI LEME GIA NA SYZHTHSOUME
> SWSTA!!!
>

Opws eipa kai prin sto myalo toy neo ellhna symperilambanomenoy kai
tou eaytou mou h shmaia symbolizei metaksy allwn kai ayton ton
politismo me ena synoptiko tropo.

> > kai tis prakshs, dhldh ths metriotitas, kai "xwrgiatosynhs" ths
> > neo-ellinikis pragmatikototas.
>
> "Xwriatosunh"??? Aaa, exeis xasei epeisodia filarako. Exeis meinei
> pisw. Exeis thn antilhpsh ths "Pswrokwstainas" pou htan tis perasmenes
> dekaeties.

H alhtheia einai oti kai gw ayto pisteya mexri na dw thn ereyna gia to
matiasma.

> Akou POLU PERILHPTIKA: H Ellada PERASE APO TIS EKSHS KAKOUXIES(Kai
> bres mou ena ANTISTOIXO EYRWPAIKO KRATOS POU NA EXEI PERASEI TA IDIA
> KAI NA EINAI SE KALUTERH KATASTASH): 400 XRONIA TOURKOKRATIA! O
> Ellhnikos pluthismos apo 30 EKATOMURIA to 1453 EMEINE LIGOTEROS APO 1
> Ekatomurio sthn Ellada to 1821 kai eixe 1-2 Ekatomuria sthn upoloiph
> eyrwph!

Hmmm mallwn yperbaleis edw alla den exei simasia.

> Meta apo peripou 90 xronia eixame tous BALKANIKOUS, amesws
> meta ton PRWTO PAGKOSMIO, AMESWS meta thn MIKRASIATIKH KATASTROFH(ti
> sou lew twra..), META apo 18 MOLIS xronia eixame to DEUTERO PAGKOSMIO
> KAI THN KATOXH APO TOUS GERMANOUS OPOU ERHMWTHIKE H XWRA OLOKLHRH KAI
> OPOU ANALOGIKA ME TON PLUTHUSMO MAS EIXAME TA PERISSOTERA THUMATA! 600
> XILIADES SE 3 XRONIA!! META sto "kapaki" eixame ton EMFYLIO, ktl,
> ktl... Oxi kai liga etsi????? Kai TOLMAS na apokaleis thn Ellada kai
> to LAO ths meta apo osa exoun perasei, "xwriatosynh", tromara sou!
>

Na sou dwsw kai ewna mantilaki na klapseis... H eythyksia se marane.
Egw den anairw ola osa eipes. Bebaia kai ti germania tin kanane skoni
sto deytero pagkosmio kai shmera exei sxedwn anairesei to problima
alla as to properasoume ayto. To problima kat emena den einai toso to
yparkto istoriko isterima, alla to oti oloi oi mouxles to
xrisimopoioun ws dikaiologia gia na klegontai kai na mhn kanoun ayto
pou prepei gia na anerethei ayto to meionektima. Einai h ethelotyflia
to problima. Egw den anaferomai stis ysterouses kratikes ypodomes,
alla sti symbololagneia kai stin istoriolagneia kat ese pou mas kanei
grafikous opisthodromikous typous pou den exoume me tipota allo na
asxolithpoume apo to na tsakonomaste an enas allodapos tha sikwsei ti
simai stin parelasi. To gegonos kai mono oti to thewroume apaksiwsi
ths shmaias ayto. Ayth h ypereyaisthisia einai nosiri kai mas kanei
kako.

Egw den anferomoun sto periexomeno ths 28 Oktobriou.

> Ton..."Kalutero Mathith"? H thn EISODO THS ELLADOS
> STO 2o PAGKOSMIO POLEMO KAI TO NIKHFORO AGWNA THS KATA TOU
> FASISMOU????

Afou ayto leei o nomos. Ta alla brasta.

> Gia th BRABEUSH twn kaluterwn mathitwn alla kai gia
> logous "ABROSUNHS" mhn anushxeis katholou: EXOUME THESPISEI OUK OLIGA
> BRABEIA KAI ARISTEIA!!PERISSOTERA APO ALLA "EYRWOPAIKA" KRATH!! ALLO H
> BRABEUSH TOU KALUTEROU MATHITH KAI ALLO H 28 OKTWBRIOU!!!
> ELPIZW NA KATALABAINEIS TH DIAFORA!!! DEN EIPA NA MHN PAREI ARISTEIO
> GIA TH BATHMOLOGIA TOU! EIPA NA MHN PAREI TH SHMAIA!!. KAI OPOIOS
> KATALABAINEI KAI DEN THELEI NA "PAIZEI" ME TIS LEKSEIS KATALABAINEI
> POLU KALA!.-
>
> > H Elliniki epanastasi den prokeitai na anerethei an o Tsenai kratisei thn
> > elliniki simaia. H mnimh ths epanastashs den prokeitai na meiwthei an o
> > Tsenai kratisei ti shmaia.
>
> ????????? "EPANASTASH"???? Mallon mperdepses thn 28h Oktwbriou me thn
> 25h Martiou. O "Ellhnas" daskalos sou ths istorias thelei ksylo!
>

Exeis dikio oti etsi moiazei, alla egw opws eipa den anaferomoun sto
periexomeno ths ewrtis alla sto periexomeno tis shmaias.

> > Antithetws einai timh gia th xwra otan enas allodapos
> > aisthanetai timh na shkwsei thn ellinikh Shmaia.
>
> KSANA-MANA! TI DOULIA EXEI H 28h OKTWBRIOU ME TON "KALUTERO"
> MATHITH?????
> Kai mhn ksexname milame gia ELLHNIKH GIORTH KAI ELLHNIKES PARELASEIS!!
> HDH PISTEUW OTI ME TO NA TOUS DINOUME TSAMPA PAIDIA, AN MH TI ALLO
> tous feromaste POLU KALA! Exw kai egw filous pou DEN "gennhthikan"
> Ellhnes, alla otan xreiasthke "shkwsan" thn Ellhnikh shmaia pshla kai
> OXI se "parelaseis".

Giati re megale ti se pirazei toso poly me tis parelaseis? Isa isa pou
stin parelash o symbolismos einai megalyteros. Dhladh to oti opoios
aisthanetai Ellhnas mporei na einai Ellhnas.

> Yparxoun Ellhnes pou DEN gennhthikan Ellhnes alla EGINAN perissotero
> "Ellhnes" apo pollous apo emas! Allo to ENA Allo to ALLO!
> (Me thn eukairia DEN eides ths synenteuksh tou.."Tsenai" ston
> Truantafullopoulo! Oloi eseis pou lete auta, den tha kserate TI na
> peite!!)
>
>
> > Einai xarakthristiko mias koinwnias anoixtomyalis, gennaiodoris, > kosmopolitikis, politismenhs, dikaihs, morfwmenhs, hpias, mh-misalodoksis, > to na krata enas allodapos thn ellinikh Shmaia.
>
> OLA auta pou eipes EIMASTE KAI ME TO PARAPANW!! Re gia pes mou: SE
> POIA EYRWPAIKH XWRA MPHKAN MAZEMENA TOSOI PARANOMOI METANASTES?? XWRIS
> EGRAFA, XWRIS TIPOTA!!!!!! KAi mou tsampounas oti "den eimaste dikaioi
> kai anoixtomualloi"????

Den mou les aytoi mphkan giati eimaste anoixtomyaloi, h giati to
kratos einai mpate skyloi aleste?

> Gia phgaine sth GERMANIA etsi, PARANOMA XWRIS
> XARTIA, na doume an tha...."kaloperaseis"! Alla KSEREIS giati ta les
> auta??? GIATI *DEN*
> ZEIS EDW, kai an "pernas" eisai "PERASTIKOS", Oi apopseis sou einai
> PERA GIA PERA LATHOS!!! To mono swsto pou eipes htan gia to kratos pou
> einai SAPIO kai bouthgmeno MEXRI TO LAIMO STO SKATO kai DEN EFARMOZEI
> *OUTE* TOUS NOMOUS!
>
>
> > Fysika h Ellinikh koinwnia me tis prakseis ths kai stis statistikes ereynes
> > dixenei oti tipote apo ayta den einai.
>
> "Fronthse" to kratos gia ayto! Kai se RWTW: AN STHN GERMANIA TO KRATOS
> DEN TOUS PAREIXE ASFALEIA, OI GERMANOI POLITES DEN THA AISTHANONTOUSAN
> ABOLA ENANTIWN TWN ALLODAPWN??? EDW ANOIKSAN TIS FULAKES OI ALBANOI
> KAI MAS ESTEILAN OLOUS TOUS BARYPINITES!!!
>

S'ayto exeis dikio, alla allo ayto kai allo h parelasi. Egw opws eides
den anaferthika se aganaltismenous polites gia leilasies klp. Alla
twra an den makrygorousa tha sou elega oti h parelasi h simaia klp
htan mia xameni eykairia na bohthisoume sti makroprothesmi lysi aytou
tou problimatos. Asto gia alli fora.

>
> > Kai gi ayto eimaste opisthodromikoi, kakiasmenoi,
> > proliptikoi grafikoi typoi. To deixnoume kathe mera se oles tis
> > ekfanseis ths drastiriotitas mas, kai meta theloume kai politistikh
> > olympiada kounia pou mas kounage.
>
> GRAFIKOS kai KAKIASMENOS eisai kai fainesai!

lol

Kala ti tobales ayto twra. Ti mia les oti to kratos einai sapio kai
thn allh to epeneis. Esy prosopika ypothetw that oydines mia klotsia
kai tha ton estelnes apo kei pourthe!

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...

> "Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message

news:<%> > Gia pia "xounta" milas? As dieukrinisoume gia pia kubernisi

milame. Prota
> > ap'ola, den ipirxe "xounta", kai sigoura h kubernisis tis Epanastaseos
> > teliosan to ergo tous ton Oktombrio tou 1973 (otan anelabe tin kibernisi
o
> > Markezinis). O oros "xounta" xrisimopiithike apo tous aristerous (tous
> > idious pou thelane na bgaloune tin Ellada apo EOK kai NATO) kai kamia
sxesi
> > den exei me to kratos dikeou pou dimiourgithike mate tis 21 Apriliou
1967.
> >
> > Oti htan kratos me nomous the thesmous exei anagnoristi apo tis
> > "dimokratikes" kibernisis pou akolouthisan (gi'auto kai efarmozonte
AKOMA
> > arketoi nomoi tis dithen "xountas"). Asfalos xriastike na xrisimopiithi
> > tetios oros giati diktatoria (kai diktaktora) den ipirxe.
> >
> > > Opws to idio ennwouse kai o proigoumenos. Egw bebaia den tha
> > > katigourousa ti xounta giati ekane ena ilithio lathos, alla aplws
> > > giati htan xounta...
> >
> > Parousiase stixia pou dixnoun oti itan ontos "xounta".
>
> Kserw go, gia pes mou, se poies ekloges psifistike h "epanastash" kai
> se poies ksanapsifistike kai ti pososta phre.

Efoson xrisimopiisises ton oro ("xounta") theoritika toulixiston tha eprespe
esi na mas pis tous logous pou se othisan na apkalesis tin Epanastasi etsi.
Alla den pirazei...

To 1968 egine DIMOPSIFISMA (rota ton Simiti an gnorizei gia tetious
dimokratikous thesmous) gia to kainourgio sintagma. H megali pliospifia to
apodextike (an thes mporo na psa3o ta arxia mou gia to akribo pososto kai
arithmo psifon). To idio egine kai to 1973 me to dimopsifisma pou ala3e to
politeuma se proedreuon dimokratia. H dikeosini itan ane3artiti apo tin
kibernisi (me tous idious dikastes, dikigorous, kok pou ipirxan prin kai
meta tin Epanastasi).

Asfalos diktatoria den itan, kai gi'auto den xrisimopioun ton oro auto oi
politikantides kai aristeri (toulaxiston ton apofeugoun). Diktatora den
ixame, alla ipirxe epanastatiko simboulio (me isodinama meli).

Kai etsi gia plaka, singkrine tin "xounta" me to politeuma to simerino. Pio
eixe dimopsifismata gia sobara ethnika kai politika themata? Pio zita tifli
afosiosi ston "arxigo", kai opios diafonei briskete grigora "ektos" (komatos
kai kinobouliou)?

[Angelos Karageorgiou]

Dionysios Pilarinos wrote:
> Efoson xrisimopiisises ton oro ("xounta") theoritika toulixiston tha eprespe
> esi na mas pis tous logous pou se othisan na apkalesis tin Epanastasi etsi.
> Alla den pirazei...

ma kala akomi pisw apo ton hlio briskeste bre "Freres Pilarinos ?"

>
> To 1968 egine DIMOPSIFISMA (rota ton Simiti an gnorizei gia tetious
> dimokratikous thesmous) gia to kainourgio sintagma. H megali pliospifia to
> apodextike (an thes mporo na psa3o ta arxia mou gia to akribo pososto kai
> arithmo psifon). To idio egine kai to 1973 me to dimopsifisma pou ala3e to
> politeuma se proedreuon dimokratia. H dikeosini itan ane3artiti apo tin
> kibernisi (me tous idious dikastes, dikigorous, kok pou ipirxan prin kai
> meta tin Epanastasi).

epishs kai ton patera moy ton ediwxnan apo douleies ta mpatsoulinia ths
xountas me poly dhmokratikes methodoys !!!! Eytyxws dhdladh giati tha
ixa kai egw pareksigisei ton markezinh gia anthrwpo
bwaaaahahaha

>
> Asfalos diktatoria den itan, kai gi'auto den xrisimopioun ton oro auto oi
> politikantides kai aristeri (toulaxiston ton apofeugoun). Diktatora den
> ixame, alla ipirxe epanastatiko simboulio (me isodinama meli).
>

o falakros htan isodynamos me ti ? me thn kypro pou thn poylhse gia ena
kommati pswmi sto filaraki toy ton kisinger?

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"Angelos Karageorgiou" <an...@hol.gr> wrote in message
news:3FBCCDA6...@hol.gr...
[snip]

> > To 1968 egine DIMOPSIFISMA (rota ton Simiti an gnorizei gia tetious
> > dimokratikous thesmous) gia to kainourgio sintagma. H megali pliospifia
to
> > apodextike (an thes mporo na psa3o ta arxia mou gia to akribo pososto
kai
> > arithmo psifon). To idio egine kai to 1973 me to dimopsifisma pou ala3e
to
> > politeuma se proedreuon dimokratia. H dikeosini itan ane3artiti apo tin
> > kibernisi (me tous idious dikastes, dikigorous, kok pou ipirxan prin kai
> > meta tin Epanastasi).
>
> epishs kai ton patera moy ton ediwxnan apo douleies ta mpatsoulinia ths
> xountas me poly dhmokratikes methodoys !!!! Eytyxws dhdladh giati tha
> ixa kai egw pareksigisei ton markezinh gia anthrwpo
> bwaaaahahaha

Aggele, me ti sigrinis tin Epanastasi h ton Markezini? Opios eixe problima
to 1967 h to 1973, sigoura eixe megalitera problimata to 1966 h to 1960.
Oudepote eipa oti ton Aprili tou 1967 dimiourgithike outopia stin Ellada.
Ipirxe omos megali proodo tin stigmi malista pou ipirxe kindinos gia to
ethnos.

Alla as 3exasoume gia ligo tin "xounta", kai as doume ti ekanan kai kanoun
oi "dimokrates". To 1974 arxisan tin dio3i kata ton "organon tis xountas"
(diladi atoma pou den eixan problima me to kinima tis 21 Apriliou). Meta apo
auto, arxisan alepaliles dio3is kata ipostrixton tou antipalou kommatos.
Mexri kai simera, exoume fiasko me tin stratiotiki igesia kai tis diikisis
ton DEKO otan mpenei kainourgia kibernisi (akoma kai an ti sximatizi to idio
komma)! Kai asfalos, den blaptei kai katholou an to komma "sou" se boithisi
simera me kamia thesoula sto dimosio h kana simboleo gia dimosio ergo.

Den mou les, tin Plateia Klaufmonos giati tin onomasane etsi? Les na ftaiei
kai h "xounta" gi'auto?

> > Asfalos diktatoria den itan, kai gi'auto den xrisimopioun ton oro auto
oi
> > politikantides kai aristeri (toulaxiston ton apofeugoun). Diktatora den
> > ixame, alla ipirxe epanastatiko simboulio (me isodinama meli).
>
>
> o falakros htan isodynamos me ti ? me thn kypro pou thn poylhse gia ena
> kommati pswmi sto filaraki toy ton kisinger?

Pios falakros? Distixos blepeis... Ellines imaste kai falakrous arketous
exoume!

An enois ton Pattako, tote isodinamos me ta alla meli tou Epanastatikou
Simbouliou. To idio akribos tha elega kai gia optiodipote allo prosopo stin
ierarxia tou kratous (Papadopoulos, Makarezos, ka).

Oso gia tin Kypro... gnorizeis asfalos oti h Epanastasi teliose to ergo tis
kai anethese stin kibernisi Markezini tin die3agogi eklogon ton Oktombri tou
1973. Ti sxesi lipon exei me tin Kypro kai ta gegononta tou 1974?

Tin Kypro tin paredosan stin Tourkia me prodosia o Karamanlis kai o
Makarios.

> > Kai etsi gia plaka, singkrine tin "xounta" me to politeuma to simerino.
Pio
> > eixe dimopsifismata gia sobara ethnika kai politika themata? Pio zita
tifli
> > afosiosi ston "arxigo", kai opios diafonei briskete grigora "ektos"
(komatos
> > kai kinobouliou)?

Krima pou den egrapses tipota gia to parapano...

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<mw3vb.245131$pT1.2...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

Egw gia ekloges se rwthsa kai sygkekrimena gi aytes pou ebgalan
kybernish thn "epanastasi". Ti mou apantas se allo erwtima?

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1edf1f1b.0311...@posting.google.com...

> > > > Gia pia "xounta" milas? As dieukrinisoume gia pia kubernisi
> > > > milame. Prota
> > > > ap'ola, den ipirxe "xounta", kai sigoura h kubernisis tis
Epanastaseos
> > > > teliosan to ergo tous ton Oktombrio tou 1973 (otan anelabe tin
kibernisi
> > > > o Markezinis). O oros "xounta" xrisimopiithike apo tous aristerous
(tous
> > > > idious pou thelane na bgaloune tin Ellada apo EOK kai NATO) kai
kamia
> > > > sxesi den exei me to kratos dikeou pou dimiourgithike mate tis 21
> > > > Apriliou 1967.
> > > >
> > > > Oti htan kratos me nomous the thesmous exei anagnoristi apo tis
> > > > "dimokratikes" kibernisis pou akolouthisan (gi'auto kai efarmozonte
> > AKOMA
> > > > arketoi nomoi tis dithen "xountas"). Asfalos xriastike na
xrisimopiithi
> > > > tetios oros giati diktatoria (kai diktaktora) den ipirxe.
> >

Duo dimopsifismata den sou ftanoun? Alla h kaliteri erotisi einai pies
ekloges ebgalan tis kibernisis meta tin "apostasia" tou 1965? Ean den to
gnorizeis, as se pliroforiso.

Oi politikantides kai to palati, se ena anendoto polemo pou dixaze ton
plithismo, dimiourgisan krisi me tis "dimokratikes" ekloges tous. Eixes tin
kathe pleura na mila gia nothia, politikes dolofonies, e3ories, kai
tromokratia. Gia na min polilogo, telika kerdise o G. Papandreou tis ekloges
(Noembriou 1963) alla anatrapike h kibernisi tou ton Ioulio tou 1965 meta to
skandalo tou A. Papandreou kai tis ASPIDA (aristeris organosis sto
stratuema). Apo tote kai mexri tin ethnosotiria epanastasi tou 1967 (2
oloklira xronia sxedon!), oi kibernisis tis xoras den eklegontan apo ton
lao.

Eixame dimokratia sti xora tis 20 Apriliou 1967? Eixame kibernisi pou eixe
eklegi apo ton lao? H apantisi asfalos einai OXI. Kai auto den to lene oi
"xountikoi", to elegan oi Papandreoi (pateras kai gios).

To ti othise ton Strato kai ton lao na ipostiri3ei tin Epanastasi... to exo
grapsi se paliotera minimata. Arki na po oti o Andreas Papandreou htan enas
apo tous kirious logous. O prothipourgos malista (Kanellopoulos) otan egine
h epanastasi kai pigan stratiotikoi na ton feroun sto ipourgio aminis,
rotise "Sas estile o Andreas?"!

Tora gia to an eginan ekloges... Profanos den exeis diabasi to sintagma tou
1968. H epanastasi anethese to ergo dimiourgias kainourgiou sintagmatos
(giati ekloges xoris sintagma den ginonte) se empirognomones politikon
epistimon. O laos APODEXTIKE to kainourgio sintagma pou tha efarmozontan
STADIAKA (opote apodextikan kai tin Epanastasi). To 1973 egine to
dimopsifisma gia to politeuma tis xoras. Kai pali o laos psifise kata tou
basilia gnorizontas oti o Papadopoulos tha ginotan o protos Proedros. Ton
Oktombrio tou 1973 anatethike ston politiko Markezini h dimiourgia
kibernisis pou tha odigouse tin xora stis EKLOGES.

Me kainourgio sintagma kai me anamenomenes EKLOGES, pios eixe politiko
ofelos me tin dimiourgia episodion (san tou politexniou)? Sigoura oxi oi
gnisioi DHOMKRATES.

[gogu]

? "stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> ?????? ??? ??????
news:1edf1f1b.0311...@posting.google.com...

Xaras sto koyragio soy file moy me ayto to HLI8IO TOYRKO-FASISTOMOYTRO :-)

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<P6rvb.252425$pT1....@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

To oti o basilias epenebei me aytarxiko tropo kai anakatwse to idi
eythrafsto politiko systima, den anairei to diktaoriko xaraktira tou
politeymatos meta to 1967. Kai allwste ti apagoreyei se mia xounta na
dienergei dimopsifismata kai mallista ypo thn isxy stratiwtikou nomou?

>
> Oi politikantides kai to palati, se ena anendoto polemo pou dixaze ton
> plithismo, dimiourgisan krisi me tis "dimokratikes" ekloges tous. Eixes tin
> kathe pleura na mila gia nothia, politikes dolofonies, e3ories, kai
> tromokratia. Gia na min polilogo, telika kerdise o G. Papandreou tis ekloges
> (Noembriou 1963) alla anatrapike h kibernisi tou ton Ioulio tou 1965 meta to

> skandalo ton A. Papandreou kai tis ASPIDA (aristeris organosis sto

> stratuema).
> Apo tote kai mexri tin ethnosotiria epanastasi tou 1967 (2
> oloklira xronia sxedon!), oi kibernisis tis xoras den eklegontan apo ton
> lao.

>
> Eixame dimokratia sti xora tis 20 Apriliou 1967? Eixame kibernisi pou eixe
> eklegi apo ton lao? H apantisi asfalos einai OXI. Kai auto den to lene oi
> "xountikoi", to elegan oi Papandreoi (pateras kai gios).
>

Symfwnoi alla yphrxan politikes diergasies kai programmatismenes
ekloges to 1967 pou pote den eginan giati oi syntagmatarxes
"epanastatisan" gia na apotrepsoun ton "kommounistiko kyndino" kai na
biasoun ti laiki boulisi pou tha ekfrazotan stis eperxomenes ekloges.
An oi syntagmatarxes koptontan gia ti laiki boulisi tha perifrourousan
tis ekloges, den tha tis ktargousan.

> To ti othise ton Strato kai ton lao na ipostiri3ei tin Epanastasi... to exo
> grapsi se paliotera minimata. Arki na po oti o Andreas Papandreou htan enas
> apo tous kirious logous. O prothipourgos malista (Kanellopoulos) otan egine
> h epanastasi kai pigan stratiotikoi na ton feroun sto ipourgio aminis,
> rotise "Sas estile o Andreas?"!

Afou yphrxe symfwnia gia na ginoun ekloges sti opoies tha krinotan kai
o antreas, ta alla ti xreiazontai? Les gia to aspida alla mprosto sto
EENA mallwn oxriouse to ASPIDA. Kai telike o papadopoulos ekane to
praksikopima oxi o antreas ara giati na mhlame gia ypotheseis?

>
> Tora gia to an eginan ekloges... Profanos den exeis diabasi to sintagma tou
> 1968.

Plaka mou kaneis? Apantish gia tis ekloges einai afth? Ekloges eginan?
Oxi. Ara h "epanastasis" htan mia triokosmikh xounta notio
amerikanikou typou. Eixe ideologiko periexomeno kai den htan mono gia
na apokatastisei thn nomimotita opws isxyrizesai. H atzenta tous htan
politkis fysews kai perieixe kommunistiko kyndino kai xristianikes
aksies klp. Egw den pernw thesi se ayta aplws lew oti h atzenta tous
itan politiki. Synepws aplws katirgisan tin antipoliteysi kai
metetrepsan tin Ellada se mpanania.

> H epanastasi anethese to ergo dimiourgias kainourgiou sintagmatos
> (giati ekloges xoris sintagma den ginonte)

giati? Den yphrxe proigoumenws syntagma?

> se empirognomones politikon
> epistimon. O laos APODEXTIKE to kainourgio sintagma pou tha efarmozontan
> STADIAKA (opote apodextikan kai tin Epanastasi).

O laos mporei na apodextei polla ypo to prisma stratiwtikwn nomwn.
Alla akoma kai etsi na einai, ti shmasia exei... politeyma xwris
ekloges onomazetai diktatoria. To oti o laos edeine ti gnwmi tou mono
otan tou ti zhtoysan me ena "nai" h ena "oxi" den allazei tin ousia
ths diktatorias.

> To 1973 egine to
> dimopsifisma gia to politeuma tis xoras. Kai pali o laos psifise kata tou
> basilia gnorizontas oti o Papadopoulos tha ginotan o protos Proedros.

H logiki leei oti psifisan enantiwn tou basilia kai oxi yper tou
papadopoulou. Profanws den eksypakouetai to ena apo to allo.

> Ton
> Oktombrio tou 1973 anatethike ston politiko Markezini h dimiourgia
> kibernisis pou tha odigouse tin xora stis EKLOGES.
>

Afou h xounta eixe misoxasei ton elegxo kai prospathouse apegnwsmena
na nomimopoihthei stis synhdhseis ths eyrwphs kai egxwriws... Kai
giati xreiazotan o Iwannidis kai o Markezineis afou outws h allws gia
ekloges tha phgename kai to 1967?

> Me kainourgio sintagma kai me anamenomenes EKLOGES, pios eixe politiko
> ofelos me tin dimiourgia episodion (san tou politexniou)? Sigoura oxi oi
> gnisioi DHOMKRATES.

Aplws oi polites eixan syneiditopoihsei oti apo "ethnoswtiries"
profaseis dhmokratias den mporousan na perimenoun eleytheri ekfrasi
tis laikis boulishs.
H ousia einai oti apo h "kybernish" tou papadopoulou pote den
eklextike kai pote den diennirghse ekloges. Epishs eixe kathari
politiki atzenta thelontas na eksafanisei tous aristerous kai na
egkatastisei "agnes" ethinikistikes antilypseis typou mousolini. Den
diaferei se tipota apo mia synithismenh notio-amerikaniki xounta. Kai
oxi mono ayto alla prospathwntas na katapiesei tous aristerous tous
ekane martyres odigwntas th xwra sthn agkalia tou laikismou kai ths
taytishs ths leksis "eleytheria" me to "sosialismo" sth synidish ths
pleiopsifias tou laou.

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...

> > > Egw gia ekloges se rwthsa kai sygkekrimena gi aytes pou ebgalan
> > > kybernish thn "epanastasi". Ti mou apantas se allo erwtima?
> >
> > Duo dimopsifismata den sou ftanoun? Alla h kaliteri erotisi einai pies
> > ekloges ebgalan tis kibernisis meta tin "apostasia" tou 1965? Ean den to
> > gnorizeis, as se pliroforiso.
>
> To oti o basilias epenebei me aytarxiko tropo kai anakatwse to idi
> eythrafsto politiko systima

Tora epanalambaneis tous propagandismous ton aristeron! H "nothia" ton
ipotithemenon "dimokratikon" eklogon tis ERE (gia tous opious o G.
Papandreou kiri3e ton "anendoto agona") ti sxesi exoun me to palati? Den tha
dikeologiso ton basilia oute ton thesmo, alla tin euthini gia tin politiki
katastasi tin exoun oi politikantindes pou meta to 1974 to paizoun
"dimokrates".

> , den anairei to diktaoriko xaraktira tou
> politeymatos meta to 1967.

Signomi, ean oi ekloges prin to to 1967 htan akires (logo nothias kai
ekbiasmon), tote pios leei oti htan dimokratikes? Ara lipon as stamatisi to
ena paramithi sxetika me tin katalisi tis dimokratias to 1967. H Epanastasi
den mporei na krithi me ta simerina dedomena, alla me tin katastasi pou
antikatastise.

Oso gia to "diktaktoriko" xaraktira, akoma perimono na parousiasis ena
stixio pou dixnei oti htan ontos diktatoria (ektos apo tin "apousia"
eklogon).

> Kai allwste ti apagoreyei se mia xounta na
> dienergei dimopsifismata kai mallista ypo thn isxy stratiwtikou nomou?

Oi notheumenes ekloges eginan prin to 1967. Poso gnorizeis gia ta
dimopsifismata (tou 68 kai 73)? Den milame oute gia kommounistikes ekloges,
oute tous autarxismous ton "dimokratikon". H kibernisi enimerose ton lao kai
zitese tin psifo tou (me dimosia ipostri3i iper tou "NAI" to 1968).

> > Oi politikantides kai to palati, se ena anendoto polemo pou dixaze ton
> > plithismo, dimiourgisan krisi me tis "dimokratikes" ekloges tous. Eixes
tin
> > kathe pleura na mila gia nothia, politikes dolofonies, e3ories, kai
> > tromokratia. Gia na min polilogo, telika kerdise o G. Papandreou tis
ekloges
> > (Noembriou 1963) alla anatrapike h kibernisi tou ton Ioulio tou 1965
meta to
> > skandalo ton A. Papandreou kai tis ASPIDA (aristeris organosis sto
> > stratuema).
> > Apo tote kai mexri tin ethnosotiria epanastasi tou 1967 (2
> > oloklira xronia sxedon!), oi kibernisis tis xoras den eklegontan apo ton
> > lao.
> >
> > Eixame dimokratia sti xora tis 20 Apriliou 1967? Eixame kibernisi pou
eixe
> > eklegi apo ton lao? H apantisi asfalos einai OXI. Kai auto den to lene
oi
> > "xountikoi", to elegan oi Papandreoi (pateras kai gios).
>
> Symfwnoi

Simfonis lipon oti den ipirxe dimokratia prin to 1967?

> alla yphrxan politikes diergasies kai programmatismenes
> ekloges to 1967

Kai ti gnorizeis gia tis ekloges autes? Pio tha htan to apotelesma? Tha
eixame dimokratia kai eirini? H apla aimatoxisia?

O Kanellopoulos kai o G. Papandreou eixan mistiki simfonia gnorizontas to
kindino gia ti xora. To palati (eis gnosi tou prothipourgou) etimaze tin
epiboli stratiotikou nomou. O Andreas elege oti tha agnoouse to sintagma kai
oti tha orkize "kibernisi" (adiakrita apo ta eklogika apotelesmata) enopion
tou laou.

Auta einai istorika gegononta pou 3ana... den ta lene oi "xountikoi", ta
lene oi dithen "dimokrates" (asfalos, alloi ta rixnoun ston Andrea, alloi
ston Konstantino).

> pou pote den eginan giati oi syntagmatarxes
> "epanastatisan"

Kai an den to ekanan oi "sintagmatarxes" (pou an den to gnorizes, den htan
oloi tous) tha to ekane to palati me tous stratigous. Agnoeis tous logous
pou othisan 4 "pleures" (Epanastasi, Basilias, ERE, EK) sto idio simperasma
(oti h ekloges tou 1967 egkimonousan kindinous).

> gia na apotrepsoun ton "kommounistiko kyndino" kai na
> biasoun ti laiki boulisi pou tha ekfrazotan stis eperxomenes ekloges.

Mantis eisai esi kai o kathe aristeros? Pos gnorizeis tin "laiki boulisi pou
tha ekfrazotan"? Exeis diabasi tis efimerides tis periodou? Oriste ti
egrafan merikes:
Eleutheria - 31 Martiou 1967 - "H EKTROPH THA SYNTRIBH ME LAIKHN
EPANASTASIN"
Eleutheria - 1 Apriliou 1967 - "H ERE AIMATOKYLHSE TH THESSALONIKH"
Eleutheria - 8 Apriliou1967 - "FASISTIKH H KYBERNHSIS THS ERE"
Athinaiki - 18 Apriliou1967 - "KIMDYNOS DIKTATORIAS... SYMBOYLOI - STRATHGOI
KAI SKLHROI THS ERE OTHOYN TON BASILEA EIS EKTROPHN"
Eleutheria - 20 Apriliou1967 - "KATAKRAYGH KATA TON SXEDION EPIBOLHS
DIKTATORIAS"

Auta pou diabazeis ta legane oi diaforoi "dimokrates" gia alla kommata tou
koinobouliou!

> An oi syntagmatarxes koptontan gia ti laiki boulisi tha perifrourousan
> tis ekloges, den tha tis ktargousan.

Oi efimerides tis epoxis (opos kai oi pra3eis tou basilia kai tou
Kanellopoulou) pronoousan to apotelesma ton eklogon. Eutixos pou eixame tin
"xounta" pou mas esose apo allo ena emfilio.

> > To ti othise ton Strato kai ton lao na ipostiri3ei tin Epanastasi... to
exo
> > grapsi se paliotera minimata. Arki na po oti o Andreas Papandreou htan
enas
> > apo tous kirious logous. O prothipourgos malista (Kanellopoulos) otan
egine
> > h epanastasi kai pigan stratiotikoi na ton feroun sto ipourgio aminis,
> > rotise "Sas estile o Andreas?"!
>
> Afou yphrxe symfwnia gia na ginoun ekloges sti opoies tha krinotan kai
> o antreas, ta alla ti xreiazontai?

Sou sinisto na diabasis tis leptomeries! O Andreas kai o mpampakas tou
prospathousan na ton prostatepsoun apo tin ipothesi ASPIDA me tin "asilia"
pou eixe san bouleutis. Telika tou tin aferesan merikes meres prin tis
ekloges, kai gi'auto kribontan apo to ena spiti sto allo gia na min ton
piasoun (oi "dimokrates" prin tin Epanastasi).

> Les gia to aspida alla mprosto sto
> EENA mallwn oxriouse to ASPIDA.

Auta pesta stous NeoDimokrates (diladi autous tis ERE) pou diaxiristikan tin
ipothesi! Oso gia to ASPIDA.... den einai kai ligo na exeis ipostratigo (!)
se mia tetia organosi. Alla apo oti blepo, eisai etimos na dikeologisis ta
adikeologita. Signomi, alla auta ta pragmata DEN ginonte se mia dimokratia.

> Kai telike o papadopoulos ekane to
> praksikopima oxi o antreas ara giati na mhlame gia ypotheseis?

Giati kathi OTHISE ton strato (kai asfalos ton Papadopoulo alla oxi mono
auton) na diakirizoun tin Epanastasi. Den mporeis na krinis mia pra3i xoris
na anagnorizeis tis katastasis pou odigisan se autin.

Blepontas oti h xora odeue mpros tin katastrofi, se pion tha anethetes esi
tin euthini na bri lisi? Sto palati? Stin ERE? Ston Papandreou? Stous
aristerous? Pios apo autous tha apetrepe tin aimatoxisia kai tha eferene tin
politiki allagi pou zitouse o laos?

> > Tora gia to an eginan ekloges... Profanos den exeis diabasi to sintagma
tou
> > 1968.
>
> Plaka mou kaneis? Apantish gia tis ekloges einai afth? Ekloges eginan?

Xoris sintagma DEN GINONTAI ekloges! Pos thes na to kaneis? Oso gia tis
ekloges, autes EGINAN gia ton PROEDRO, kai PROGRAMATISTIKAN gia ton
prothipourgo kai tin kibernisi tou.

> Oxi. Ara h "epanastasis" htan mia triokosmikh xounta notio
> amerikanikou typou.

San pia? Gia dose mou ena sigkekrimeno istoriko paradigma.

> Eixe ideologiko periexomeno kai den htan mono gia
> na apokatastisei thn nomimotita opws isxyrizesai.

Asfalos kai eixe "ideologiko periexomeno"! Pios diafonise? Mipos sou eipa
oti tha paradine tin e3ousia stous politikantides 3ana xoris allages stous
thesmous (opos to sintagma h to politeuma)?

> H atzenta tous htan
> politkis fysews kai perieixe kommunistiko kyndino kai xristianikes
> aksies klp.

Ti alites, etsi?!

> Egw den pernw thesi se ayta aplws lew oti h atzenta tous
> itan politiki.

Asfalos kai htan, giati etsi htan kai o KYNDINOS! To politiko sistima
xrizontan epigontos epembasi, kai auto ekanan diorthonontas to. Ean diabazes
to sintagma tou 1968, tha anagnorizes pos h epembasi tous diorthone ta
sfalmata pou odigisan stin krisi tou 1965-1967.

> Synepws aplws katirgisan tin antipoliteysi kai
> metetrepsan tin Ellada se mpanania.

Gia eksigise ti esti "mpanania" kai pos h Ellada tou 1967-1973 aniki se mia
tetia katigoria.

> > H epanastasi anethese to ergo dimiourgias kainourgiou sintagmatos
> > (giati ekloges xoris sintagma den ginonte)
>
> giati? Den yphrxe proigoumenws syntagma?

Kai o Saddam eixe "sintagma", alla gia kapio logo oi Irakinoi kai oi
Amerikanoi (kai o kosmos olokriros) thelei kainourgio (prin tis ekloges).
Den nomizeis oti einai logiko, h thes na sou parousiaso analitika tous
logous.

Ti sintagma eixame kai exoume? Nomizeis oti einai dimokratiko? Exoume kai
eixame kibernisis pou allazan tous eklogikous nomous (kai ton tropo pou
xrisimopiousan to analogiko sistima) gia na bgazoun tin epomeni kibernisi.
Asfalos, simera pleon milame gia tin megaliteri MIOPSIFIA pou bgazei
kibernisi (kai as lene ilithiotites gia "dimokratikes" a3ies). H pliopsifia
ton Ellinon psifoforon psifise KATA tou Simiti kai tou PASOK (kai auto xoris
kan na xriazete na metrisoume autous pou den psifisan). Kai omos, exeis
prothipourgous pou kibernoun AYTARXIKA...

> > se empirognomones politikon
> > epistimon. O laos APODEXTIKE to kainourgio sintagma pou tha efarmozontan
> > STADIAKA (opote apodextikan kai tin Epanastasi).
>
> O laos mporei na apodextei polla ypo to prisma stratiwtikwn nomwn.

Eipame, nothies kai ekbiasmoi eginan apo tous "dimokrates" prin to 1967 (kai
piges arketes iparxoun gi'auto). Ean exeis plirofories gia askisi pieseos
apo tous "xountikous" sto dimopsifisma tou 1968 h tou 1973... tote
parousiase tes.

> Alla akoma kai etsi na einai, ti shmasia exei... politeyma xwris
> ekloges onomazetai diktatoria.

Piase ena le3iko kai pes mou pou leei tetio pragma! Den tha asxolitho me tin
le3i oute me tin ennoia tis. To mono pou xriazete na po einai oti otan
iparxi ektakti anangki h ethnikos kindinos, tote ekloges DEN ginonte, oute
stis dimokraties (as to gnorize auto o Benizelos gia na min xaname tin
Mikrasia).

> To oti o laos edeine ti gnwmi tou mono
> otan tou ti zhtoysan me ena "nai" h ena "oxi" den allazei tin ousia
> ths diktatorias.

Alithia? Tote giati psifisan "NAI"? Kai apo pote egine to dimopsifisma h
ekloges mia "gnomi"? H to les auto epidi den sou aresi to apotelesma (tou
dimopsifismatos)?

> > To 1973 egine to
> > dimopsifisma gia to politeuma tis xoras. Kai pali o laos psifise kata
tou
> > basilia gnorizontas oti o Papadopoulos tha ginotan o protos Proedros.
>
> H logiki leei oti psifisan enantiwn tou basilia kai oxi yper tou
> papadopoulou. Profanws den eksypakouetai to ena apo to allo.

Opote kalitera h epanastasi (Papadopoulos) para to polietuma pou eixame prin
to 1967 (Konstantinos)! Pou diafonoume?

> > Ton
> > Oktombrio tou 1973 anatethike ston politiko Markezini h dimiourgia
> > kibernisis pou tha odigouse tin xora stis EKLOGES.
>
> Afou h xounta eixe misoxasei ton elegxo kai prospathouse apegnwsmena
> na nomimopoihthei stis synhdhseis ths eyrwphs kai egxwriws...

Pou ta diabazeis auta? H Ellada tis Epanastaseos eixe tin kaliteri
oikonomiki periodo tis apo tote pou apeleutherothike apo tous Tourkous! To
sintagma eixe pleon efarmogei e3olokrirou (apo to 1972). Ta stratiotika
empargo (idieteros ton Amerikanon) eixan pleon arthei (apo to 1971). Pou
blepeis tin "xounta" na exei "misoxasei ton elegxo"? Epidi efarmosan auto
pou eipan (oti h Epanastasi meta apo kapia xroniki periodo tha epestrefe tin
e3ousia se politikous)?

> Kai
> giati xreiazotan o Iwannidis kai o Markezineis afou outws h allws gia
> ekloges tha phgename kai to 1967?

Anarotieme posa diaforetika kritiria mporo na xrisimopiiso gia na sigkrino
to 1973 me to 1967!

> > Me kainourgio sintagma kai me anamenomenes EKLOGES, pios eixe politiko
> > ofelos me tin dimiourgia episodion (san tou politexniou)? Sigoura oxi oi
> > gnisioi DHOMKRATES.
>
> Aplws oi polites eixan syneiditopoihsei oti apo "ethnoswtiries"
> profaseis dhmokratias den mporousan na perimenoun eleytheri ekfrasi
> tis laikis boulishs.

Pou eides tous polites? O Ioannidis anetrepse tin kibernisi Markezini, OXI o
laos! Alla meta apo 30 xronia mithistorimatos gia to politexnio kai to
"fititiko kai laiko kinima" ti na perimeni kaneis.

> H ousia einai oti apo h "kybernish" tou papadopoulou pote den
> eklextike kai pote den diennirghse ekloges.

Sosta. Eixe 2 dimopsifismata (sta opia o laos mporouse na psifisi enantia
stis prothesis tis Epanastaseos), paredose tin e3ousia (opos kanoun oi
dimokraties gia tin diae3agogi eklogon) kai programatize kai ekloges.

> Epishs eixe kathari
> politiki atzenta thelontas na eksafanisei tous aristerous kai na
> egkatastisei "agnes" ethinikistikes antilypseis typou mousolini.

Pos tous "eksafanise" tous aristerous? Kai pies ethnikistikes antilipsis
einai "typou mousolini" (kai oxi as poume typou Meta3a)?

> Den
> diaferei se tipota apo mia synithismenh notio-amerikaniki xounta.

Gia parousiase merika paradigmata (me istoriki leptomeria).

> Kai
> oxi mono ayto alla prospathwntas na katapiesei tous aristerous tous
> ekane martyres odigwntas th xwra sthn agkalia tou laikismou kai ths
> taytishs ths leksis "eleytheria" me to "sosialismo" sth synidish ths
> pleiopsifias tou laou.

Auta pou les eginan me tis propagandes kai ta psemata ton politikantidon
(aristeron kai de3ion). Pou eides "katapiesi" kai "martires"? An einai etsi,
as tautisoume simera tin le3i "eleutheria" me tous anarxikous (mias kai
milame basika gia antikoinonika stixia)!

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<4oCwb.133348$ri.19...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

> "stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...
> > > > Egw gia ekloges se rwthsa kai sygkekrimena gi aytes pou ebgalan
> > > > kybernish thn "epanastasi". Ti mou apantas se allo erwtima?
> > >
> > > Duo dimopsifismata den sou ftanoun? Alla h kaliteri erotisi einai pies
> > > ekloges ebgalan tis kibernisis meta tin "apostasia" tou 1965? Ean den to
> > > gnorizeis, as se pliroforiso.
> >
> > To oti o basilias epenebei me aytarxiko tropo kai anakatwse to idi
> > eythrafsto politiko systima
>
> Tora epanalambaneis tous propagandismous ton aristeron! H "nothia" ton
> ipotithemenon "dimokratikon" eklogon tis ERE (gia tous opious o G.
> Papandreou kiri3e ton "anendoto agona") ti sxesi exoun me to palati? Den tha
> dikeologiso ton basilia oute ton thesmo, alla tin euthini gia tin politiki
> katastasi tin exoun oi politikantindes pou meta to 1974 to paizoun
> "dimokrates".

Prepei nabaloume ta pramata se mia taksi, allo basilias, allo
Karamanlis. Ean syzhtame gia dimokratiko koinobouleytiko systima, o
basilias den exei kamia doulia sti mesi tis politikis diamaxis. Tha
mou peis tote etsi itan. Alla fysika ayto akribws itan to problhma. To
an o Karamanlis notheyse tis ekloges, ntropi tou alla ayto einai
diaforetiko. Tha epaelthw se ayto logi pio katw.

>
> > , den anairei to diktaoriko xaraktira tou
> > politeymatos meta to 1967.
>
> Signomi, ean oi ekloges prin to to 1967 htan akires (logo nothias kai
> ekbiasmon), tote pios leei oti htan dimokratikes? Ara lipon as stamatisi to
> ena paramithi sxetika me tin katalisi tis dimokratias to 1967.

Mexri to 1967 eixame basileyomenh koinobouleytikh dimokratia opou oloi
oi paragontes ekseytelizan toys thesmous (me kyrio enoxo to basilia
pou epairne politikes theseis). To apotelesma htan mia stratiotikh
xounta.

> H Epanastasi
> den mporei na krithi me ta simerina dedomena, alla me tin katastasi pou
> antikatastise.
>

Pragmati ws pros tin omada twn atomwn pou epraksan to praksikopima h
katastasi beltiwthike. Omws ta atoma ayta den eixan aneptygmeni krisi.
Prothesi eixan, ikanotita den eixan, oute armodiotita eixan.

> Oso gia to "diktaktoriko" xaraktira, akoma perimono na parousiasis ena
> stixio pou dixnei oti htan ontos diktatoria (ektos apo tin "apousia"
> eklogon).
>
> > Kai allwste ti apagoreyei se mia xounta na
> > dienergei dimopsifismata kai mallista ypo thn isxy stratiwtikou nomou?
>
> Oi notheumenes ekloges eginan prin to 1967. Poso gnorizeis gia ta
> dimopsifismata (tou 68 kai 73)? Den milame oute gia kommounistikes ekloges,

???? tie einai kommunistikes ekloges?

> oute tous autarxismous ton "dimokratikon". H kibernisi enimerose ton lao kai
> zitese tin psifo tou (me dimosia ipostri3i iper tou "NAI" to 1968).

Den htan psifos yper ths kybernishs alla enenatiwn tou basilia. To
dimopsifisma den rwthse, "thelete emas san kybenrhsh?". Ayto pou eipe
einai "dedomenou oti eimaste kybernhsh, thelete periorismenh isxy tou
basilia?". Ti tha elegan, oxi?

>
> > > Oi politikantides kai to palati, se ena anendoto polemo pou dixaze ton
> > > plithismo, dimiourgisan krisi me tis "dimokratikes" ekloges tous. Eixes
> tin
> > > kathe pleura na mila gia nothia, politikes dolofonies, e3ories, kai
> > > tromokratia. Gia na min polilogo, telika kerdise o G. Papandreou tis
> ekloges
> > > (Noembriou 1963) alla anatrapike h kibernisi tou ton Ioulio tou 1965
> meta to
> > > skandalo ton A. Papandreou kai tis ASPIDA (aristeris organosis sto
> > > stratuema).
> > > Apo tote kai mexri tin ethnosotiria epanastasi tou 1967 (2
> > > oloklira xronia sxedon!), oi kibernisis tis xoras den eklegontan apo ton
> > > lao.
> > >
> > > Eixame dimokratia sti xora tis 20 Apriliou 1967? Eixame kibernisi pou
> eixe
> > > eklegi apo ton lao? H apantisi asfalos einai OXI. Kai auto den to lene
> oi
> > > "xountikoi", to elegan oi Papandreoi (pateras kai gios).
> >
> > Symfwnoi
>
> Simfonis lipon oti den ipirxe dimokratia prin to 1967?
>

Symfwnw oti akoma kai ayth thn atelh basileyomenh koinobouleytikh
dimokratia pou yphrxe, oi politikoi kai o basilias, tin ekseytelizan.
Fysika kai h CIA pou thn ksexname stin sygkekrimeni syzhthsh, kai to
Ellhnoamerikaniko loby klp klp. Oloi aytoi aselgousan eisbasros twn
thesmwn.

> > alla yphrxan politikes diergasies kai programmatismenes
> > ekloges to 1967
>
> Kai ti gnorizeis gia tis ekloges autes? Pio tha htan to apotelesma?

Mantis eimai? Opio kai na htan, an oi ekloges htan anotheytes, h
pithanothta ektrophs tha meionotan. Egw den tha eixa problhma an gia
paradeigma o stratos ebaze to maxairi sto kokalo kai elege sto basilia
kai se olous tous emplekomenous, oti "egw tha perifrourisw tis
ekloges". Omws o stratos, h to kommati tou papadopoulou, kathe allo
para anotheytes ekloges hthele. Mallista anisyxouse perissotero apo to
basilia gia ton "kommounistiko kyndino". O Papadopoulos den edrase gia
na apokatastisei mia kalws orismenh koinobouleytikh dimokratia, alla
gia na akyrwsei th dhmokratia kai na epibalei thn apopsi tou peri
kommounistikou kyndinou.

> Tha
> eixame dimokratia kai eirini? H apla aimatoxisia?
>
> O Kanellopoulos kai o G. Papandreou eixan mistiki simfonia gnorizontas to
> kindino gia ti xora. To palati (eis gnosi tou prothipourgou) etimaze tin
> epiboli stratiotikou nomou. O Andreas elege oti tha agnoouse to sintagma kai
> oti tha orkize "kibernisi" (adiakrita apo ta eklogika apotelesmata) enopion
> tou laou.

E nai aplws yphrkse mazikos aynananismos pou odigise sti xounta.

>
> Auta einai istorika gegononta pou 3ana... den ta lene oi "xountikoi", ta
> lene oi dithen "dimokrates" (asfalos, alloi ta rixnoun ston Andrea, alloi
> ston Konstantino).
>
> > pou pote den eginan giati oi syntagmatarxes
> > "epanastatisan"
>
> Kai an den to ekanan oi "sintagmatarxes" (pou an den to gnorizes, den htan
> oloi tous) tha to ekane to palati me tous stratigous. Agnoeis tous logous
> pou othisan 4 "pleures" (Epanastasi, Basilias, ERE, EK) sto idio simperasma
> (oti h ekloges tou 1967 egkimonousan kindinous).

Kindynous praksikopimatos?

>
> > gia na apotrepsoun ton "kommounistiko kyndino" kai na
> > biasoun ti laiki boulisi pou tha ekfrazotan stis eperxomenes ekloges.
>
> Mantis eisai esi kai o kathe aristeros? Pos gnorizeis tin "laiki boulisi pou
> tha ekfrazotan"?

Ma den problepw to apotelesma. Ek tou gegonotos oti akyrwsan tis
ekloges symperainoume oti den hthelan thn ekfrasi tis laikis boulishs.
An thn hthelan tha perifrourousan ti diafaneia twn eklogwn.

> Exeis diabasi tis efimerides tis periodou? Oriste ti
> egrafan merikes:
> Eleutheria - 31 Martiou 1967 - "H EKTROPH THA SYNTRIBH ME LAIKHN
> EPANASTASIN"
> Eleutheria - 1 Apriliou 1967 - "H ERE AIMATOKYLHSE TH THESSALONIKH"
> Eleutheria - 8 Apriliou1967 - "FASISTIKH H KYBERNHSIS THS ERE"
> Athinaiki - 18 Apriliou1967 - "KIMDYNOS DIKTATORIAS... SYMBOYLOI - STRATHGOI
> KAI SKLHROI THS ERE OTHOYN TON BASILEA EIS EKTROPHN"
> Eleutheria - 20 Apriliou1967 - "KATAKRAYGH KATA TON SXEDION EPIBOLHS
> DIKTATORIAS"
>
> Auta pou diabazeis ta legane oi diaforoi "dimokrates" gia alla kommata tou
> koinobouliou!
>
> > An oi syntagmatarxes koptontan gia ti laiki boulisi tha perifrourousan
> > tis ekloges, den tha tis ktargousan.
>
> Oi efimerides tis epoxis (opos kai oi pra3eis tou basilia kai tou
> Kanellopoulou) pronoousan to apotelesma ton eklogon. Eutixos pou eixame tin
> "xounta" pou mas esose apo allo ena emfilio.

Oloi oi diktatores ana ton kosmo epikalountai "ektaktes" synthikes.
Oti oti den yparxoun, aplws ayto den anairei to gegonos oti einai
diktatores.

Tha sou dwsw ki allo ligo. An o stratos ekane prakskophma, periorize h
afairouse thn epirroh tou palatiou, kai katopin ekane ekloges, xwris
politikous diowgmous kai xwris na parei to meros tou enws h tou allou
(dhl. ths deksias enanti tis aristeras), an ekane ayta kai se ena estw
dyo xronia ekane ekloges, tote na eisai bebaios oti kaneis den tha
mhlouse gia xounta... Tha mhlousame gia ena aparaithta alla anagkaio
kako. Omws to kathestws papadopoulou endiaferotan perissotero gia
epixeirimata "ideologikhs" fyseos, dhl. akrodeksia, kai endiaferotan
na kybernhsei me ypourgous kai nomous. Me oikonomikh kai eksoterikh
politikh. Ayto einai aplws mia diktatoria kai kamia sxesh den exei me
mia aplh eksomalynsh twn thesmwn. Ti tha afairoyse o papadopoulos thn
epiroh tou palatiou kai meta tha ekane ekloges gia na eklegei o
"kommounistikos kindynos"... trelos eisai? Mono ekloges den thelane.

>
> Blepontas oti h xora odeue mpros tin katastrofi, se pion tha anethetes esi
> tin euthini na bri lisi? Sto palati? Stin ERE? Ston Papandreou? Stous
> aristerous? Pios apo autous tha apetrepe tin aimatoxisia kai tha eferene tin
> politiki allagi pou zitouse o laos?

An eksartotan apo mena tha prospathousan na mhlhso me psyxremia se
oles tis pleyres kai tha eksafaliza agria perifrouroumenes alla
dikaies ekloges.

>
> > > Tora gia to an eginan ekloges... Profanos den exeis diabasi to sintagma
> tou
> > > 1968.
> >
> > Plaka mou kaneis? Apantish gia tis ekloges einai afth? Ekloges eginan?
>
> Xoris sintagma DEN GINONTAI ekloges! Pos thes na to kaneis? Oso gia tis
> ekloges, autes EGINAN gia ton PROEDRO, kai PROGRAMATISTIKAN gia ton
> prothipourgo kai tin kibernisi tou.
>
> > Oxi. Ara h "epanastasis" htan mia triokosmikh xounta notio
> > amerikanikou typou.
>
> San pia? Gia dose mou ena sigkekrimeno istoriko paradigma.
>
> > Eixe ideologiko periexomeno kai den htan mono gia
> > na apokatastisei thn nomimotita opws isxyrizesai.
>
> Asfalos kai eixe "ideologiko periexomeno"! Pios diafonise? Mipos sou eipa
> oti tha paradine tin e3ousia stous politikantides 3ana xoris allages stous
> thesmous (opos to sintagma h to politeuma)?

Edw mallwn den katalabes ti ennwousa. Otan lew ideologiko periexomeno
lew oti den endiaferotan aplws gia tin eksomalynsh twn thesmwn kai to
ekso=rthologismo tous, alla eixa akrodeksia politikh atzenta.

>
> > H atzenta tous htan
> > politkis fysews kai perieixe kommunistiko kyndino kai xristianikes
> > aksies klp.
>
> Ti alites, etsi?!
>
> > Egw den pernw thesi se ayta aplws lew oti h atzenta tous
> > itan politiki.
>
> Asfalos kai htan, giati etsi htan kai o KYNDINOS! To politiko sistima
> xrizontan epigontos epembasi, kai auto ekanan diorthonontas to. Ean diabazes
> to sintagma tou 1968, tha anagnorizes pos h epembasi tous diorthone ta
> sfalmata pou odigisan stin krisi tou 1965-1967.
>
> > Synepws aplws katirgisan tin antipoliteysi kai
> > metetrepsan tin Ellada se mpanania.
>
> Gia eksigise ti esti "mpanania" kai pos h Ellada tou 1967-1973 aniki se mia
> tetia katigoria.

Giati eixe kybernhsh pou paristane oti exei laiki ypostiriksh, alla
den eixe antipoliteysh... Stin mpanania akribws ayto symbenei.

>
> > > H epanastasi anethese to ergo dimiourgias kainourgiou sintagmatos
> > > (giati ekloges xoris sintagma den ginonte)
> >
> > giati? Den yphrxe proigoumenws syntagma?
>
> Kai o Saddam eixe "sintagma", alla gia kapio logo oi Irakinoi kai oi
> Amerikanoi (kai o kosmos olokriros) thelei kainourgio (prin tis ekloges).
> Den nomizeis oti einai logiko, h thes na sou parousiaso analitika tous
> logous.

De nomizw oti einai to idio, xwris na kserw to syntagma tou santam. To
Elliniko sto bathmo pou antilambanomai aplws eixe to meionektima oti
edeine polles eksousies to basilia kai tou epetrepe na anakatwnetai
stin politiki. Lai aytos fysika den afhne thn eykairia anekmetaleyth.
Alla kata ta alla htan entaksei kai an den kanwe lathos eixe kai
mhxanismous anathewrishs.

>
> Ti sintagma eixame kai exoume? Nomizeis oti einai dimokratiko? Exoume kai
> eixame kibernisis pou allazan tous eklogikous nomous (kai ton tropo pou
> xrisimopiousan to analogiko sistima) gia na bgazoun tin epomeni kibernisi.

E nai alla toulaxiston o prwtos panta kybernaei me opoiodhpote
eklogiko nomo.

> Asfalos, simera pleon milame gia tin megaliteri MIOPSIFIA pou bgazei
> kibernisi (kai as lene ilithiotites gia "dimokratikes" a3ies).

Me sygxwreis alla oi apopseis sou gia ton eklogiko nomo den exoun
sxesh me ayta pou leme. Opws gnwrizeis yparxoun epixeirhmata yper kai
kata ths enisxymenhs analogikhs alla edw den einai to forum gia na
koubentiasoume ayto. Dhladh eisai yper ths aplhs analogikhs?

> H pliopsifia
> ton Ellinon psifoforon psifise KATA tou Simiti kai tou PASOK (kai auto xoris
> kan na xriazete na metrisoume autous pou den psifisan). Kai omos, exeis
> prothipourgous pou kibernoun AYTARXIKA...

Hmmm mallwn den skeytesai tis synepeies aytwn pou les. An yphrxe aplh
analogikh tha ebgene panta to PASOK me kapoies alles aristeres
synergasies, kathoson ws gnwston h pleiopsifia einai kentroaristerh
sthn Ellada.

>
> > > se empirognomones politikon
> > > epistimon. O laos APODEXTIKE to kainourgio sintagma pou tha efarmozontan
> > > STADIAKA (opote apodextikan kai tin Epanastasi).
> >
> > O laos mporei na apodextei polla ypo to prisma stratiwtikwn nomwn.
>
> Eipame, nothies kai ekbiasmoi eginan apo tous "dimokrates" prin to 1967 (kai
> piges arketes iparxoun gi'auto). Ean exeis plirofories gia askisi pieseos
> apo tous "xountikous" sto dimopsifisma tou 1968 h tou 1973... tote
> parousiase tes.

As poume mia aplh. Dedomenou oti oloi oi politikoi eixan paei eite
spiti tous eite fylaki, kai dedomenwn twn yparktwn diogmwn twn
antikathestwtikwn, o politis eixe to dikaiwma na ypopteythei oti h
psifos tou tha "diabazotan" apo tous egkathetous kai meta tha ton
kynhgagan.

>
> > Alla akoma kai etsi na einai, ti shmasia exei... politeyma xwris
> > ekloges onomazetai diktatoria.
>
> Piase ena le3iko kai pes mou pou leei tetio pragma! Den tha asxolitho me tin
> le3i oute me tin ennoia tis.

Eixa to merrima webster eykwlo, sygxwra me gia ta agglika:

dictatorship:
a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a
dictator or a small clique b : a government organization or group in
which absolute power is so concentrated c : a despotic state

Poio ap ayta DEN htan to kathestws ths "epanastashs"

> To mono pou xriazete na po einai oti otan
> iparxi ektakti anangki h ethnikos kindinos, tote ekloges DEN ginonte, oute
> stis dimokraties (as to gnorize auto o Benizelos gia na min xaname tin
> Mikrasia).
>
> > To oti o laos edeine ti gnwmi tou mono
> > otan tou ti zhtoysan me ena "nai" h ena "oxi" den allazei tin ousia
> > ths diktatorias.
>
> Alithia? Tote giati psifisan "NAI"? Kai apo pote egine to dimopsifisma h
> ekloges mia "gnomi"? H to les auto epidi den sou aresi to apotelesma (tou
> dimopsifismatos)?
>
> > > To 1973 egine to
> > > dimopsifisma gia to politeuma tis xoras. Kai pali o laos psifise kata
> tou
> > > basilia gnorizontas oti o Papadopoulos tha ginotan o protos Proedros.
> >
> > H logiki leei oti psifisan enantiwn tou basilia kai oxi yper tou
> > papadopoulou. Profanws den eksypakouetai to ena apo to allo.
>
> Opote kalitera h epanastasi (Papadopoulos) para to polietuma pou eixame prin
> to 1967 (Konstantinos)! Pou diafonoume?

Ayto pws bgainei ap ayto pou eipa?

>
> > > Ton
> > > Oktombrio tou 1973 anatethike ston politiko Markezini h dimiourgia
> > > kibernisis pou tha odigouse tin xora stis EKLOGES.
> >
> > Afou h xounta eixe misoxasei ton elegxo kai prospathouse apegnwsmena
> > na nomimopoihthei stis synhdhseis ths eyrwphs kai egxwriws...
>
> Pou ta diabazeis auta?

H eyrwph kai to eyrwpaiko dikastirio anthrwpinwn dikaiomatwn den
asxolountai mono me tin oikonomia.

> H Ellada tis Epanastaseos eixe tin kaliteri
> oikonomiki periodo tis apo tote pou apeleutherothike apo tous Tourkous! To
> sintagma eixe pleon efarmogei e3olokrirou (apo to 1972). Ta stratiotika
> empargo (idieteros ton Amerikanon) eixan pleon arthei (apo to 1971). Pou
> blepeis tin "xounta" na exei "misoxasei ton elegxo"? Epidi efarmosan auto
> pou eipan (oti h Epanastasi meta apo kapia xroniki periodo tha epestrefe tin
> e3ousia se politikous)?
>
> > Kai
> > giati xreiazotan o Iwannidis kai o Markezineis afou outws h allws gia
> > ekloges tha phgename kai to 1967?
>
> Anarotieme posa diaforetika kritiria mporo na xrisimopiiso gia na sigkrino
> to 1973 me to 1967!
>
> > > Me kainourgio sintagma kai me anamenomenes EKLOGES, pios eixe politiko
> > > ofelos me tin dimiourgia episodion (san tou politexniou)? Sigoura oxi oi
> > > gnisioi DHOMKRATES.
> >
> > Aplws oi polites eixan syneiditopoihsei oti apo "ethnoswtiries"
> > profaseis dhmokratias den mporousan na perimenoun eleytheri ekfrasi
> > tis laikis boulishs.
>
> Pou eides tous polites? O Ioannidis anetrepse tin kibernisi Markezini, OXI o
> laos! Alla meta apo 30 xronia mithistorimatos gia to politexnio kai to
> "fititiko kai laiko kinima" ti na perimeni kaneis.

Esy eipes oti h "epanastasis" odhgouse th xwra se ekloges kai ara ti
xreiazotan to polytexneio. Egw den eipa oti to polytexneio anetrepse
kanenan. Aplws prosethese sthn apwleia elegxou kai nomimopoihshs ths
xountas.

>
> > H ousia einai oti apo h "kybernish" tou papadopoulou pote den
> > eklextike kai pote den diennirghse ekloges.
>
> Sosta. Eixe 2 dimopsifismata (sta opia o laos mporouse na psifisi enantia
> stis prothesis tis Epanastaseos), paredose tin e3ousia (opos kanoun oi
> dimokraties gia tin diae3agogi eklogon) kai programatize kai ekloges.
>
> > Epishs eixe kathari
> > politiki atzenta thelontas na eksafanisei tous aristerous kai na
> > egkatastisei "agnes" ethinikistikes antilypseis typou mousolini.
>
> Pos tous "eksafanise" tous aristerous? Kai pies ethnikistikes antilipsis
> einai "typou mousolini" (kai oxi as poume typou Meta3a)?

Ma kai o Metaksas diktatoras htan.

>
> > Den
> > diaferei se tipota apo mia synithismenh notio-amerikaniki xounta.
>
> Gia parousiase merika paradigmata (me istoriki leptomeria).
>
> > Kai
> > oxi mono ayto alla prospathwntas na katapiesei tous aristerous tous
> > ekane martyres odigwntas th xwra sthn agkalia tou laikismou kai ths
> > taytishs ths leksis "eleytheria" me to "sosialismo" sth synidish ths
> > pleiopsifias tou laou.
>
> Auta pou les eginan me tis propagandes kai ta psemata ton politikantidon
> (aristeron kai de3ion). Pou eides "katapiesi" kai "martires"?

Ma ti thes twra na arxisw na lew paradeigmata? As poume o Theodwrakis,
pou mphke fylaki. Ti tha mou peis twra oti kala tou kanane?

> An einai etsi,
> as tautisoume simera tin le3i "eleutheria" me tous anarxikous (mias kai
> milame basika gia antikoinonika stixia)!

Opws ksereis merws ths antideksias rhtorikhs twn aristerwn sthrizetai
sth xounta, kai mallista se megalo bathmo.

En telei den kserw, h den exw skeytei eis bathos an oi tote synthikes
odhgousan monosymanta se ayto to kathestws. Alla opws kai na exei to
pragma, ayto to kathestws eixe ola ta xaraktiristrika mias akrodeksias
diktatorias, kai akribws ayto htan.

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...

> > Tora epanalambaneis tous propagandismous ton aristeron! H "nothia" ton
> > ipotithemenon "dimokratikon" eklogon tis ERE (gia tous opious o G.
> > Papandreou kiri3e ton "anendoto agona") ti sxesi exoun me to palati? Den
tha
> > dikeologiso ton basilia oute ton thesmo, alla tin euthini gia tin
politiki
> > katastasi tin exoun oi politikantindes pou meta to 1974 to paizoun
> > "dimokrates".
>
> Prepei nabaloume ta pramata se mia taksi, allo basilias, allo
> Karamanlis.

Kai ti thes na peis me to parapano? Pios efthinete gia ti "nothia" (kai otan
anaferome se "nothia" apla epanalambano auta pou elege o Papandreou kai h
EK)? Ean einai h ERE kai o Karamanlis (toulaxiston se ena bathmo), tote gia
pia "dimokratia" milame oti "apokatastathike" to 1974?!

> Ean syzhtame gia dimokratiko koinobouleytiko systima, o
> basilias den exei kamia doulia sti mesi tis politikis diamaxis.

Asfalos kai exei otan to orizei to sintagma! Den mporeis na exeis mia
ipothesi ethnikis asfalias (to ASPIDA) stin opia fenete anamigmenos ipourgos
kai gios you prothipourgou... kai o prothipourgos na theli na einai
ipeuthinos gia to thema (malista, o G. Papandreou ithele na ginei ipourgos
aminis - tou ipourgio diladi pou xirizotan to thema)! Oti kai na lene
simera, kanenas den ebale "peristrofo sto krotalo" ton bouleuton tis
"apostasias". O G. Papandreou efthinontan gia tin "apostasia", kai kala
ekane o Basilias (opos orize to sintagma) pou anethese tin diakibernisi tis
xoras se diaforetiki kibernisi.

> Tha
> mou peis tote etsi itan. Alla fysika ayto akribws itan to problhma. To
> an o Karamanlis notheyse tis ekloges, ntropi tou alla ayto einai
> diaforetiko. Tha epaelthw se ayto logi pio katw.

Den einai apla "ntropi" tou. Simera ton parousiazoun san ton mega "ethnarxi"
kai "dimokrati". Ean exeis ena kako na peis gia tin "xounta", tha'prepe na
eleges ekato gia kino to remali.

> > Signomi, ean oi ekloges prin to to 1967 htan akires (logo nothias kai
> > ekbiasmon), tote pios leei oti htan dimokratikes? Ara lipon as stamatisi
to
> > ena paramithi sxetika me tin katalisi tis dimokratias to 1967.
>
> Mexri to 1967 eixame basileyomenh koinobouleytikh dimokratia opou oloi
> oi paragontes ekseytelizan toys thesmous (me kyrio enoxo to basilia
> pou epairne politikes theseis). To apotelesma htan mia stratiotikh
> xounta.

Opote ti nomizeis oti tha itan to apotelesma ton eklogon you Maiou 1967?
Apodexese oti o thesmos eixe ekseutelisti.

> > H Epanastasi
> > den mporei na krithi me ta simerina dedomena, alla me tin katastasi pou
> > antikatastise.
>
> Pragmati ws pros tin omada twn atomwn pou epraksan to praksikopima h
> katastasi beltiwthike. Omws ta atoma ayta den eixan aneptygmeni krisi.
> Prothesi eixan, ikanotita den eixan, oute armodiotita eixan.

Afise gia ligo to thema tis "armodiotitas". Gia parousiase stixia sxetika me
tin ikanotita kai krisi. Bres *1* thema pou den xiristikan kalitera apo tous
dithen "dimokrates". Tin oikonomia, tin amina, ta dimosia erga, paideia,
koinoniki perithalpsi.... se ti akribos den ekanan kali douleia?

Oso gia to thema "armodiotitas"... exeis DIKEO. Eixan tin idia armodiotita
pou eixe o stratos otan kinithikan kata tou Othona (3 Septembriou 1843), h
otan eferan ton Benizelo (15 Augoustou 1909)! Simera ti mathenoune sta
Ellinopoula gia auta ta duo gegononta (an ta mathenoun diladi)?

> > Oso gia to "diktaktoriko" xaraktira, akoma perimono na parousiasis ena
> > stixio pou dixnei oti htan ontos diktatoria (ektos apo tin "apousia"
> > eklogon).
> >
> > > Kai allwste ti apagoreyei se mia xounta na
> > > dienergei dimopsifismata kai mallista ypo thn isxy stratiwtikou nomou?
> >
> > Oi notheumenes ekloges eginan prin to 1967. Poso gnorizeis gia ta
> > dimopsifismata (tou 68 kai 73)? Den milame oute gia kommounistikes
ekloges,
>
> ???? tie einai kommunistikes ekloges?

Autes pou eixan kai exoun stis pragmatikes mpananies, opou o "arxigos"
dexete 99.9% ton psifon. An thes paradigma, perimene tis apomenes pou tha
exoun sti Kouba!

> > oute tous autarxismous ton "dimokratikon". H kibernisi enimerose ton lao
kai
> > zitese tin psifo tou (me dimosia ipostri3i iper tou "NAI" to 1968).
>
> Den htan psifos yper ths kybernishs alla enenatiwn tou basilia.

Eipa tou *1968* gia to sintagma. Giati apodextike o laos to kainourgio
sintagma? Asfalos giati gnorizan (opos paradextikes) oti to proigoumene den
litourgouse (idieteros dimokratika).

> To
> dimopsifisma den rwthse, "thelete emas san kybenrhsh?". Ayto pou eipe
> einai "dedomenou oti eimaste kybernhsh, thelete periorismenh isxy tou
> basilia?". Ti tha elegan, oxi?

Sou sinisto na diabasis to sintagma tou 1968. Makari na to eixame simera!

> > Simfonis lipon oti den ipirxe dimokratia prin to 1967?
>
> Symfwnw oti akoma kai ayth thn atelh basileyomenh koinobouleytikh
> dimokratia pou yphrxe, oi politikoi kai o basilias, tin ekseytelizan.

Skepsou to auto tin epomeni fora pou kapios tha pei oti "katalithike" h
"dimokratia" to 1967, h oti tin "epanaferane" to 1974!

> Fysika kai h CIA pou thn ksexname stin sygkekrimeni syzhthsh, kai to
> Ellhnoamerikaniko loby klp klp. Oloi aytoi aselgousan eisbasros twn
> thesmwn.

Gia parousiase ena istorika paradigma.

> > > alla yphrxan politikes diergasies kai programmatismenes
> > > ekloges to 1967
> >
> > Kai ti gnorizeis gia tis ekloges autes? Pio tha htan to apotelesma?
>
> Mantis eimai? Opio kai na htan, an oi ekloges htan anotheytes, h
> pithanothta ektrophs tha meionotan.

Kai pios leei oti tha'tan anotheutes? Kai an htan anotheutes, pios leei oti
den tha tis diakirizan "notheumenes" autoi pou tha'xanan kai tha sximatizan
kibernisi (opos iposxethike o A. Papandreou)?

> Egw den tha eixa problhma an gia
> paradeigma o stratos ebaze to maxairi sto kokalo kai elege sto basilia
> kai se olous tous emplekomenous, oti "egw tha perifrourisw tis
> ekloges".

Pios "stratos"? Oi stratigoi pou tote opos kai simera exoun tin thesi tous
logo ton politikon tous "apopseon" (diladi se pio mantri anikoun)? H
ierarxia tou Stratou htan uper tou Basilia, kai diskola tha eperne thasi
kata tou.

> Omws o stratos, h to kommati tou papadopoulou, kathe allo
> para anotheytes ekloges hthele.

To thema den htan ekei (ekloges). Htan to ti tha ginotan META (h kai prin)
tis ekloges. Tha epetrepe o basilias tis ekloges? An exane h EK, ti tha
ekane o A. Papandreou? An exane h ERE, ti tha ekane o basilias? Mparouti h
katastasi blepeis, kai kanenas den eblepe tin omali die3agogi ton eklogon
(opos parousiasa me ta dimosieumata tis periodou).

> Mallista anisyxouse perissotero apo to
> basilia gia ton "kommounistiko kyndino".

Anisixouse gia ena kainourgio "giro" aimatoxisias.

> O Papadopoulos den edrase gia
> na apokatastisei mia kalws orismenh koinobouleytikh dimokratia,

Pou ti brikes tin "kalws orismenh koinobouleytikh dimokratia" gia na tin
apokatastisi h Epanastasi?

> alla
> gia na akyrwsei th dhmokratia kai na epibalei thn apopsi tou peri
> kommounistikou kyndinou.

O Papadopoulos DEN htan diktatoras kai pote den epebale tin dikia tou
apopsi. Eixe ergo h Epanastasi kai auto efarmostike.

> > Tha
> > eixame dimokratia kai eirini? H apla aimatoxisia?
> >
> > O Kanellopoulos kai o G. Papandreou eixan mistiki simfonia gnorizontas
to
> > kindino gia ti xora. To palati (eis gnosi tou prothipourgou) etimaze tin
> > epiboli stratiotikou nomou. O Andreas elege oti tha agnoouse to sintagma
kai
> > oti tha orkize "kibernisi" (adiakrita apo ta eklogika apotelesmata)
enopion
> > tou laou.
>
> E nai aplws yphrkse mazikos aynananismos pou odigise sti xounta.

Oxi. Odigouse tin xora sti katastrofi. Skepsou ti tha ginotan ean DEN
ginontan to kinima tis 21 Apriliou 1967. To oti piran meriki tin protoboulia
einai ena THAYMA se ekini tin periodo.

> > Kai an den to ekanan oi "sintagmatarxes" (pou an den to gnorizes, den
htan
> > oloi tous) tha to ekane to palati me tous stratigous. Agnoeis tous
logous
> > pou othisan 4 "pleures" (Epanastasi, Basilias, ERE, EK) sto idio
simperasma
> > (oti h ekloges tou 1967 egkimonousan kindinous).
>
> Kindynous praksikopimatos?

Oxi akribos, alla "laikou agona" (diladi enoplos agonas kata tis eklegomenis
kibernisis).

> > > gia na apotrepsoun ton "kommounistiko kyndino" kai na
> > > biasoun ti laiki boulisi pou tha ekfrazotan stis eperxomenes ekloges.
> >
> > Mantis eisai esi kai o kathe aristeros? Pos gnorizeis tin "laiki boulisi
pou
> > tha ekfrazotan"?
>
> Ma den problepw to apotelesma. Ek tou gegonotos oti akyrwsan tis
> ekloges symperainoume oti den hthelan thn ekfrasi tis laikis boulishs.

Ma esi apodextikes oti proigoumenes ekloges htan "notheumenes". Ekfrazontan
h "laiki boulisi" stis ekloges? Analogia pion rotisis tha akousis kai
diaforetiki apantisi.

> An thn hthelan tha perifrourousan ti diafaneia twn eklogwn.
>
> > Exeis diabasi tis efimerides tis periodou? Oriste ti
> > egrafan merikes:
> > Eleutheria - 31 Martiou 1967 - "H EKTROPH THA SYNTRIBH ME LAIKHN
> > EPANASTASIN"
> > Eleutheria - 1 Apriliou 1967 - "H ERE AIMATOKYLHSE TH THESSALONIKH"
> > Eleutheria - 8 Apriliou1967 - "FASISTIKH H KYBERNHSIS THS ERE"
> > Athinaiki - 18 Apriliou1967 - "KIMDYNOS DIKTATORIAS... SYMBOYLOI -
STRATHGOI
> > KAI SKLHROI THS ERE OTHOYN TON BASILEA EIS EKTROPHN"
> > Eleutheria - 20 Apriliou1967 - "KATAKRAYGH KATA TON SXEDION EPIBOLHS
> > DIKTATORIAS"
> >
> > Auta pou diabazeis ta legane oi diaforoi "dimokrates" gia alla kommata
tou
> > koinobouliou!
> >
> > > An oi syntagmatarxes koptontan gia ti laiki boulisi tha perifrourousan
> > > tis ekloges, den tha tis ktargousan.
> >
> > Oi efimerides tis epoxis (opos kai oi pra3eis tou basilia kai tou
> > Kanellopoulou) pronoousan to apotelesma ton eklogon. Eutixos pou eixame
tin
> > "xounta" pou mas esose apo allo ena emfilio.
>
> Oloi oi diktatores ana ton kosmo epikalountai "ektaktes" synthikes.
> Oti oti den yparxoun, aplws ayto den anairei to gegonos oti einai
> diktatores.

Ean den to gnorizes, o El. Benizelos epikalestike autes akribos tis
sinthikes sta dika tou pra3ikopimata. Asfalos autos einai ethnikos iroas kai
exei dosi to kratos to onoma tou se diethnes aerodromio... alloi pantos
pethanan sti filaki gia ligotera.

> > Sou sinisto na diabasis tis leptomeries! O Andreas kai o mpampakas tou
> > prospathousan na ton prostatepsoun apo tin ipothesi ASPIDA me tin
"asilia"
> > pou eixe san bouleutis. Telika tou tin aferesan merikes meres prin tis
> > ekloges, kai gi'auto kribontan apo to ena spiti sto allo gia na min ton
> > piasoun (oi "dimokrates" prin tin Epanastasi).
> >
> >

> > Auta pesta stous NeoDimokrates (diladi autous tis ERE) pou diaxiristikan
tin
> > ipothesi! Oso gia to ASPIDA.... den einai kai ligo na exeis ipostratigo
(!)
> > se mia tetia organosi. Alla apo oti blepo, eisai etimos na dikeologisis
ta
> > adikeologita. Signomi, alla auta ta pragmata DEN ginonte se mia
dimokratia.
> >
> >

> > Giati kathi OTHISE ton strato (kai asfalos ton Papadopoulo alla oxi mono
> > auton) na diakirizoun tin Epanastasi. Den mporeis na krinis mia pra3i
xoris
> > na anagnorizeis tis katastasis pou odigisan se autin.
>
> Tha sou dwsw ki allo ligo. An o stratos ekane prakskophma, periorize h
> afairouse thn epirroh tou palatiou, kai katopin ekane ekloges, xwris
> politikous diowgmous kai xwris na parei to meros tou enws h tou allou
> (dhl. ths deksias enanti tis aristeras), an ekane ayta kai se ena estw
> dyo xronia ekane ekloges, tote na eisai bebaios oti kaneis den tha
> mhlouse gia xounta...

Pou eides diogmous h ipostiri3i stin mia pleura (ERE h de3ia)? H epanastasi
DEN htan autarxiko kathestos gia na epibali tin thelisi tis ston basilia kai
tous politikous. Dimiourgise sintagma pou apodextike o laos. Basi autou tou
sintagmatos tha e3lisontan h diabibernisi tis xoras. Kai gia pes mou, pia h
diafora meta3i 2 xronon kai 6misi?

> Tha mhlousame gia ena aparaithta alla anagkaio
> kako.

Anagkaio htan, an kai elaxisti to apodexonte simera (edo o idios o G.
Papandreou to eixe apodextei). Tore an htan kako h oxi... nomizo oti 3ereis
tin dikia mou apopsi.

> Omws to kathestws papadopoulou endiaferotan perissotero gia

Den htan "kathestws papadopoulou".

> epixeirimata "ideologikhs" fyseos, dhl. akrodeksia, kai endiaferotan
> na kybernhsei me ypourgous kai nomous.

Afou den htan XOUNTA, pos theleis na kibernisi? To paradexese kai monos dou
diladi! Nai, ipirxe kibernisi, dikeosini, kai nomothesia. Kai asfalos
ipostirize tis Ellinorthodo3es a3ies, pou to problima me auto?

> Me oikonomikh kai eksoterikh
> politikh.

Kai kali douleia ekane malista!

> Ayto einai aplws mia diktatoria kai kamia sxesh den exei me
> mia aplh eksomalynsh twn thesmwn.

Den milas gia diktatoria otan paradexese auta pou les parapano!

> Ti tha afairoyse o papadopoulos thn
> epiroh tou palatiou kai meta tha ekane ekloges gia na eklegei o
> "kommounistikos kindynos"... trelos eisai? Mono ekloges den thelane.

Ekloges thelane, alla oxi me tin oligarxia pou kibernouse kai kiberna
simera!

> > Blepontas oti h xora odeue mpros tin katastrofi, se pion tha anethetes
esi
> > tin euthini na bri lisi? Sto palati? Stin ERE? Ston Papandreou? Stous
> > aristerous? Pios apo autous tha apetrepe tin aimatoxisia kai tha eferene
tin
> > politiki allagi pou zitouse o laos?
>
> An eksartotan apo mena tha prospathousan na mhlhso me psyxremia se
> oles tis pleyres kai tha eksafaliza agria perifrouroumenes alla
> dikaies ekloges.

Ean isoun stratiotikos kai aniges to stoma sou tha briskosoun stin e3oria.
Ti leme tora?! Kai simera as ani3i enas stratiotikos to stoma tou gia thema
politiko kai tha dis poso grigora tha briskete ektos strateumatos.

> > Xoris sintagma DEN GINONTAI ekloges! Pos thes na to kaneis? Oso gia tis
> > ekloges, autes EGINAN gia ton PROEDRO, kai PROGRAMATISTIKAN gia ton
> > prothipourgo kai tin kibernisi tou.
> >
> > > Oxi. Ara h "epanastasis" htan mia triokosmikh xounta notio
> > > amerikanikou typou.
> >
> > San pia? Gia dose mou ena sigkekrimeno istoriko paradigma.
> >
> >

> > Asfalos kai eixe "ideologiko periexomeno"! Pios diafonise? Mipos sou
eipa
> > oti tha paradine tin e3ousia stous politikantides 3ana xoris allages
stous
> > thesmous (opos to sintagma h to politeuma)?
>
> Edw mallwn den katalabes ti ennwousa. Otan lew ideologiko periexomeno
> lew oti den endiaferotan aplws gia tin eksomalynsh twn thesmwn kai to
> ekso=rthologismo tous, alla eixa akrodeksia politikh atzenta.

Pou tin eides "akrode3ia"? Ellinorthodo3ia = akrode3ia? Apo pote?

> > Asfalos kai htan, giati etsi htan kai o KYNDINOS! To politiko sistima
> > xrizontan epigontos epembasi, kai auto ekanan diorthonontas to. Ean
diabazes
> > to sintagma tou 1968, tha anagnorizes pos h epembasi tous diorthone ta
> > sfalmata pou odigisan stin krisi tou 1965-1967.
> >
> >

> > Gia eksigise ti esti "mpanania" kai pos h Ellada tou 1967-1973 aniki se
mia
> > tetia katigoria.
>
> Giati eixe kybernhsh pou paristane oti exei laiki ypostiriksh, alla
> den eixe antipoliteysh... Stin mpanania akribws ayto symbenei.

Stin "mpananies" exeis mia arxi me apoliti dinami. Pou to eides auto stin
Ellada? Idieteros meta to 1971 pou den ipirxan pleon periorismi ston tipo,
opou diabaze kai akouge o laos arketa pramata kata tou "stratiotikou
kathestotos".

> > > > H epanastasi anethese to ergo dimiourgias kainourgiou sintagmatos
> > > > (giati ekloges xoris sintagma den ginonte)
> > >
> > > giati? Den yphrxe proigoumenws syntagma?
> >
> > Kai o Saddam eixe "sintagma", alla gia kapio logo oi Irakinoi kai oi
> > Amerikanoi (kai o kosmos olokriros) thelei kainourgio (prin tis
ekloges).
> > Den nomizeis oti einai logiko, h thes na sou parousiaso analitika tous
> > logous.
>
> De nomizw oti einai to idio, xwris na kserw to syntagma tou santam. To

Ti xriazete na gnorizeis? Apodexese tin nomimotita h tin dimokratiki
antilipsi tou proigoumenou sintagmatos? Douleue? H apantisi gia to Irak kai
gia tin Ellada (to 1967) einai OXI.

> Elliniko sto bathmo pou antilambanomai aplws eixe to meionektima oti
> edeine polles eksousies to basilia kai tou epetrepe na anakatwnetai
> stin politiki.

To sintagma tou 1968 diorthose arketa alla. Kai auto giati den to
dimiourgisan politikantides tis oligarxias.

> Lai aytos fysika den afhne thn eykairia anekmetaleyth.
> Alla kata ta alla htan entaksei kai an den kanwe lathos eixe kai
> mhxanismous anathewrishs.

Oso apodexete kaneis simera to sintagma tou Santam (diladi sxedon kanenas),
allo toso apodexotan o Ellinikos laos to sintagma tou palatiou kai tis
koinobouleutikis oligarxias.

> > Ti sintagma eixame kai exoume? Nomizeis oti einai dimokratiko? Exoume
kai
> > eixame kibernisis pou allazan tous eklogikous nomous (kai ton tropo pou
> > xrisimopiousan to analogiko sistima) gia na bgazoun tin epomeni
kibernisi.
>
> E nai alla toulaxiston o prwtos panta kybernaei me opoiodhpote
> eklogiko nomo.

Pou stin Ellada epitrepi se mia miopsifia na dimiourgisi autodinami
kibernisi.

> > Asfalos, simera pleon milame gia tin megaliteri MIOPSIFIA pou bgazei
> > kibernisi (kai as lene ilithiotites gia "dimokratikes" a3ies).
>
> Me sygxwreis alla oi apopseis sou gia ton eklogiko nomo den exoun
> sxesh me ayta pou leme. Opws gnwrizeis yparxoun epixeirhmata yper kai
> kata ths enisxymenhs analogikhs alla edw den einai to forum gia na
> koubentiasoume ayto. Dhladh eisai yper ths aplhs analogikhs?

To thema den einai o eklogikos nomos, einai to pos oi "dimokratikes"
kibernisis (pou einai autodinames me eklogiki miopsifia) ton alazoun gia na
epofelithouse stis epomenes. Auto nothia den einai? Kai etsi gia na
gnorizeis (oxi oti thelo na to sizitiso edo) eimai uper tis aplis
analogikis.

> > H pliopsifia
> > ton Ellinon psifoforon psifise KATA tou Simiti kai tou PASOK (kai auto
xoris
> > kan na xriazete na metrisoume autous pou den psifisan). Kai omos, exeis
> > prothipourgous pou kibernoun AYTARXIKA...
>
> Hmmm mallwn den skeytesai tis synepeies aytwn pou les. An yphrxe aplh
> analogikh tha ebgene panta to PASOK me kapoies alles aristeres
> synergasies, kathoson ws gnwston h pleiopsifia einai kentroaristerh
> sthn Ellada.

To eidame auto otan sximatise kibernisi to KKE me tin ND! Alla den tha
sizitiso to thema auto edo.

> > Eipame, nothies kai ekbiasmoi eginan apo tous "dimokrates" prin to 1967
(kai
> > piges arketes iparxoun gi'auto). Ean exeis plirofories gia askisi
pieseos
> > apo tous "xountikous" sto dimopsifisma tou 1968 h tou 1973... tote
> > parousiase tes.
>
> As poume mia aplh. Dedomenou oti oloi oi politikoi eixan paei eite
> spiti tous eite fylaki, kai dedomenwn twn yparktwn diogmwn twn
> antikathestwtikwn, o politis eixe to dikaiwma na ypopteythei oti h
> psifos tou tha "diabazotan" apo tous egkathetous kai meta tha ton
> kynhgagan.

Auta pou les parapano ta elegan oi "aristeroi" (kai autoi tis EK) prin to
1967. Kai opos eipa, den ipirxan diogmi kai filakisi politikon.

> > Piase ena le3iko kai pes mou pou leei tetio pragma! Den tha asxolitho me
tin
> > le3i oute me tin ennoia tis.
> Eixa to merrima webster eykwlo, sygxwra me gia ta agglika:
>
> dictatorship:
> a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a
> dictator or a small clique b : a government organization or group in
> which absolute power is so concentrated c : a despotic state
>
> Poio ap ayta DEN htan to kathestws ths "epanastashs"

OLA! Pou eides "absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small
clique"? Gia pes mou pios eixe apoliti dinami? To idio asfalos kai me to b
kai c.

> > To mono pou xriazete na po einai oti otan
> > iparxi ektakti anangki h ethnikos kindinos, tote ekloges DEN ginonte,
oute
> > stis dimokraties (as to gnorize auto o Benizelos gia na min xaname tin
> > Mikrasia).
> >
> >

> > Alithia? Tote giati psifisan "NAI"? Kai apo pote egine to dimopsifisma h
> > ekloges mia "gnomi"? H to les auto epidi den sou aresi to apotelesma
(tou
> > dimopsifismatos)?
> >
> > > > To 1973 egine to
> > > > dimopsifisma gia to politeuma tis xoras. Kai pali o laos psifise
kata
> > tou
> > > > basilia gnorizontas oti o Papadopoulos tha ginotan o protos
Proedros.
> > >
> > > H logiki leei oti psifisan enantiwn tou basilia kai oxi yper tou
> > > papadopoulou. Profanws den eksypakouetai to ena apo to allo.
> >
> > Opote kalitera h epanastasi (Papadopoulos) para to polietuma pou eixame
prin
> > to 1967 (Konstantinos)! Pou diafonoume?
>
> Ayto pws bgainei ap ayto pou eipa?

Eipes "psifisan enantiwn tou basilia". Diladi o basilias htan xiroteros apo
ton Papadopoulo (h opos eipa, o Papadopoulos h Proedros kaliteros apo ton
Konstantino h Basilia).

Einai san na les "psifizo kata tou Simiti" otan psifizo ND. Logiko einai
lipon na nomizeis oti o Karamanlis einai kaliteros apo ton Simiti (stin
apopsi autou pou psifise etsi).

> > > Afou h xounta eixe misoxasei ton elegxo kai prospathouse apegnwsmena
> > > na nomimopoihthei stis synhdhseis ths eyrwphs kai egxwriws...
> >
> > Pou ta diabazeis auta?
>
> H eyrwph kai to eyrwpaiko dikastirio anthrwpinwn dikaiomatwn den
> asxolountai mono me tin oikonomia.

Kai ti sxesi exei to "eyrwpaiko dikastirio" me ton esoteriko elegxo tis
xoras?

> > H Ellada tis Epanastaseos eixe tin kaliteri
> > oikonomiki periodo tis apo tote pou apeleutherothike apo tous Tourkous!
To
> > sintagma eixe pleon efarmogei e3olokrirou (apo to 1972). Ta stratiotika
> > empargo (idieteros ton Amerikanon) eixan pleon arthei (apo to 1971). Pou
> > blepeis tin "xounta" na exei "misoxasei ton elegxo"? Epidi efarmosan
auto
> > pou eipan (oti h Epanastasi meta apo kapia xroniki periodo tha epestrefe
tin
> > e3ousia se politikous)?
> >
> >

> > Pou eides tous polites? O Ioannidis anetrepse tin kibernisi Markezini,
OXI o
> > laos! Alla meta apo 30 xronia mithistorimatos gia to politexnio kai to
> > "fititiko kai laiko kinima" ti na perimeni kaneis.
>
> Esy eipes oti h "epanastasis" odhgouse th xwra se ekloges kai ara ti
> xreiazotan to polytexneio. Egw den eipa oti to polytexneio anetrepse
> kanenan. Aplws prosethese sthn apwleia elegxou kai nomimopoihshs ths
> xountas.

Ma den exase ton elegxo. PAREDOSE tin e3ousia ston Markezini. Megali
diafora.

> > Sosta. Eixe 2 dimopsifismata (sta opia o laos mporouse na psifisi
enantia
> > stis prothesis tis Epanastaseos), paredose tin e3ousia (opos kanoun oi
> > dimokraties gia tin diae3agogi eklogon) kai programatize kai ekloges.
> >
> > > Epishs eixe kathari
> > > politiki atzenta thelontas na eksafanisei tous aristerous kai na
> > > egkatastisei "agnes" ethinikistikes antilypseis typou mousolini.
> >
> > Pos tous "eksafanise" tous aristerous? Kai pies ethnikistikes antilipsis
> > einai "typou mousolini" (kai oxi as poume typou Meta3a)?
>
> Ma kai o Metaksas diktatoras htan.

Ti sxesi exei o Meta3as me ton Mousolini? Apla prospathouses na peis oti to
na exeis "ethinikistikes antilypseis" simeni oti einai "typou mousolini"
(diladi eisai fasistas). Kai ego sou leo oti o mega ethnarxis Meta3as (aftos
pou xarise stin Ellada tin niki epi ton Italon) tis idies "ethinikistikes
antilypseis" eixe (pou sigoura kamia sxesi den exoun me ton Mousolini h ton
fasismo).

> > > Den
> > > diaferei se tipota apo mia synithismenh notio-amerikaniki xounta.
> >
> > Gia parousiase merika paradigmata (me istoriki leptomeria).
> >
> >

> > Auta pou les eginan me tis propagandes kai ta psemata ton politikantidon
> > (aristeron kai de3ion). Pou eides "katapiesi" kai "martires"?
>
> Ma ti thes twra na arxisw na lew paradeigmata? As poume o Theodwrakis,
> pou mphke fylaki. Ti tha mou peis twra oti kala tou kanane?

O Theodorakis htan igetiko stelexos tromokratikis organosis. Katadikastike
apo dikastirio kai oxi apo tin kibernisi. Asfalos, KALA tou ekanan an kai
eprepe na tou kanoun XEIROTERA. Telika gnorizeis ti egine me to Theodoraki?
Tou epetrepsan na figei apo tin xora ("e3oria" to onomazei simera).

Simera o Theodorakis ti leei gia tis tromokratikes tou energies? Zitise pote
signomi apo tous athoous Ellines pou traumatistikan h skotothikan apo auton
kai tin organosi tou?

> > An einai etsi,
> > as tautisoume simera tin le3i "eleutheria" me tous anarxikous (mias kai
> > milame basika gia antikoinonika stixia)!
>
> Opws ksereis merws ths antideksias rhtorikhs twn aristerwn sthrizetai
> sth xounta, kai mallista se megalo bathmo.

Diladi sto psema... to gnorizo auto. Ti nomizeis oti einai h 17 Noembriou
kai tin xrisimopioun san aformi gia na kanoun diadilosis kai na kaine tin
Elliniki simea?

> En telei den kserw, h den exw skeytei eis bathos an oi tote synthikes
> odhgousan monosymanta se ayto to kathestws. Alla opws kai na exei to
> pragma, ayto to kathestws eixe ola ta xaraktiristrika mias akrodeksias
> diktatorias, kai akribws ayto htan.

An diabasis arketa biblia, tha mathis oti to akribos antitheto einai! H
Epanastasi htan ontos "adinati" kai den eprate san mia "diktatoria". Panta
eprate skeftontas tin laiki antidrasi - kati pou den kanoun oi diktatores.

Simera asfalos exoume "dimokratia", kai blepoume poso autarxika kiberoun oi
politikantides! Thes na sou doso paradigmata? :)

[stardimi***]

As ta paroum ta pragmata ena ena. Htan diktatoria h den htan? Esy les
oti den htan giati htan apotelesma twn prohgoumenwn diergasiwn. Omws h
dikatoria den eksartatai apo to pou proekypse alla poly apla ap'ta
xaraktiristika tou kathestwtos. Les oti den htan akrodeksia paroti
politikopoiouse tin ellinorthodoksia opws thn apokaleis. Omws ayth
einai h kyria akrodeksia atzenta. Episis eipes oti den edeiwkse tnn
antipolyteysi, alla o Thewdorakis htan tromokratis... Af'enws loipon
faskeis kai antifaskeis, kai afto den bohtha thn aksiopistia twn
epixeirimatwn sou, kai den katalabenw giati den to katalabeneis. Af
eterou, to diko mou symperasma apo ayta pou eipame ienai oti, ekloges
den yphrxan, antipoliteysh den yphrxe, diogmoi anitkathestotikwn
yphrxan dia tis poinikopoihshs politikwn epixeirimatwn, kai kata
synepeia exoume mia klassiki akrodeksia xounta. Ayta gia th morfh tou
politeymatos.

Liga logia gia ton "ethniko kindyno" pou ekane anagkaia ti xounta:

Eipes oti h syntagmatarxes hthelan na apotrepsoun ton ethniko kyndino.
Omws h eisbolh stin Kypro egine epi diktatorias ystera apo to
praksikopima kata tou makariou to opoio ekkinhthei apo thn Athina.
Synepws mporeis sobara na peis oti h diaxhreish ths xountas twn
ekswterikwn thematwn meiwse toys kindynous? Dhladh ti xeirwtero
mporouse na ginei apo mia klassiki kybernish?

Oso gia tin antidhmokratikothta prin to 67:
kamia dhmokratia den einai idanikh. Omws yparxoun dhmokraties
kalliteres apo alles dimokraties, kai yparxoun kai mh-dhmokraties. H
Ellada epi 100 xronia prospathoei na isorropisei se ena dimokratiko
kathestws. Omws h anwrimotita tou politi, h anwrimothta twn politkwn
kai olwn twn allwn koinwnikwn etairwn empodizei th dimokratia na
leitourghsei swsta. Omws yparxei mia tash sygklishs, h beltiwshs ths
dimokratias. Allo 1900, allo 1950, allo 1980, kai allo 1990.
P.x. to 1900 dimokratia kai diktatoria sxedwn enallaswtan. Metaksy as
poum 1950 kai 1967 eixame xeiragwgoument (apo to basilia) dimokratia
me kati notheies, me kati fakelwmata, me kati anwrimous krabgazontes
aristerous pou den hkseran ti hthelan (ektws apo ekdikish). Alla kai
pali kallitera apo thn epoxh tou Metaksa. E loipon to 1970 eixe
paralthei h epoxh twn diktatoriwn, h the eprepe na exei parelthei. To
hthiko prokalyma gia xeiragwgous eixe pesei. O anthrwpos to 1970 eixe
ftase sto feggari. Den yparxei dikaiologia. An mas aksize mia
diktatoria tote ntropi mas.

Telos h oikonomia klp. Mia koinwnia gia na paei mprosta, xreiazetai to
atomo na exei protoboulia. Na mhn eine xaxolos. H dhmokratia eynwei
koinwnies ypeythynwn aneksarthtwn politwn. Giati stin poria toy xronou
o politis mathainei apo ta lathi toy kai h dimokratia orimazei. Otan
symbei ayto symenei oti o politis kata meso oro einai filotimos kai
epishs analmbanei protoboylies gia mia kalliteri zwh opws aytos thn
antilambanetai. Kai etsi oi koinwnia ws to athrisma twn protobouliwn
twn politwn paei mprosta. Kai h oikonomia kat epektasin epishs. Omws
otan mia koinwnia kybernatai apo xeiragogous ayto yponoei oti aytoi oi
kybernhtes kalws h kakws den empisteyontai ton politi. Ara akyrwnoun
tin kinitira dynamh pou tha ferei oikonomiki proodo. Twra an h xounta
prosorina symazepse thn oikonomia, ayto einai men mia endeiksi agathis
prothesis, alla den mporei na ferei aytosyntiroumenh diarkh rpoodo
giati eksorismou h elleipsi empistosynhs stin krisi tou poiliti
akyrwnei akribvws ayto.

Ayto ennousa otan elega oti oi diktatores den eixan krisi oute
ikanotita. Giati den mporousan na katalaboun oti o Stratos den mporei
na kybernisei mia xwra kai na ferei proodo. Eks orismou! Polles fores,
polloi stratiwtikoi kanoun ayto to sfalma. Giati einai egkenes sti
nootropia tous. Theloun agnes kathares lyseis. Omws aytes apogymnwnoun
tin koinwnia apo ton polymorfismo pou apaithtai wste dia ths
diadikasias ths ekseliksis kai fysikis epiloghs, na proodeyei. Oi
politikoi epidh eklegontai apo tis taseis mias koinwnias einai pio
katallhloi, ennoiologika efoson o politis psifizei ayton pou ton
ekproswpei ideologika h ithika. Kai oxi ayton pou tou dinei pio polles
gides. Me alla logia h dimokratia leitourgei otan o politis psifizei
gia to geniko symferon kai oxi gia to atomiko. Giati gnwrizei oti to
atomiko mono mesa apo to geniko symferon mporei na prokypsei.

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<EGPwb.138598$ri.19...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...

Prota ap'ola, tha po oti tha protimousa na apantouses sta epixirimata pou
ethesa. Sigmoni diladi, alla einai ligo xronoboro na epanalabano merika
pragmata pou exoume kalispi se ena thema.

> As ta paroum ta pragmata ena ena. Htan diktatoria h den htan? Esy les
> oti den htan giati htan apotelesma twn prohgoumenwn diergasiwn.

Den eipa POTE tetio pragma. Eipa oti den itan diktatoria giati DEN ipirxe
diktatoras. Htan kratos dikeou kai dimokratikon thesmon. Sou exo zitisi
arketes fores na ipostiri3is me epixirimata tin apopsi sou oti itan
diktatoria h "xounta". To oti oi proigoumenes kibernisis den itan
dimokratikes den exei kamia sxesi me me ti politiki morfi tis Epanastasis...

> Omws h
> dikatoria den eksartatai apo to pou proekypse alla poly apla ap'ta
> xaraktiristika tou kathestwtos.

Kai gia pia xaraktiristika milame? Eixe ane3artiti dikeosini? Htan kanenas h
kamia "omada" h ta3i iperano nomon? Pio sigkekrimeno xaraktiristiko eixe pou
diaferi apo mia dimokratia (xoris asfalos na mpoume sto thema tis analipsis
e3ousias)?

Episis, giati apofeugeis tin singrisi me proigoumenes energies tou stratou
sti diakibernisi tis xoras (idieteros autes pou "giortazoun" oi simerinoi
"dimokrates)? Autes simera den tis fonazoume "diktatories", kai oute asfalos
tous igetes tous "diktatores" (san ton Benizelo). Sosta?

> Les oti den htan akrodeksia paroti
> politikopoiouse tin ellinorthodoksia opws thn apokaleis.

Gnorizeis ti einai h "akrode3ia"? Prosefere h Epanastasi ergo koinoniko h
sosialistiko? H apla poulise tin xora gia ta simferonta tou megalou kefaleou
(opos ekane h ND kai to PASOK)? Simera exeis prosopikotites tis aristeras
pou ipostirizoun tin "Ellinorthodo3ia" (den tin apokaloun etsi, apla theloun
na iperaskpisoume ta Ellinika idanika kai tin paradosi mas). Kai aftous,
"akrode3ious" tous onomazeis?

> Omws ayth
> einai h kyria akrodeksia atzenta.

Pia? H Ellinorthodo3ia? Pios to leei auto?

> Episis eipes oti den edeiwkse tnn
> antipolyteysi, alla o Thewdorakis htan tromokratis...

Den tha katso na 3analeo to kathe pragma xilies fores! Ebaze o Theodorakis
ekriktikous mixanismous? Htan igetiko stelexos se mia organosi pou ebaze
bombes kai ekane apopires dolofonias? ESY, ti to onomazeis auto? EINAI h den
einai tromokratia? H apla epidi mporei na simfoneis me tis apopsis tou
Theodoraki... dikeologis teties energies (opos kanoun merikoi simera kai me
ta meloi tis 17N)?

> Af'enws loipon
> faskeis kai antifaskeis, kai afto den bohtha thn aksiopistia twn
> epixeirimatwn sou, kai den katalabenw giati den to katalabeneis.

Bres mou *ENAN* politiko pou filakistike xoris na ginei kapia diki stin opia
krithike ENOXOS. Auto apo mono tou ta leei ola. Kai an thes na baleis tous
tromokrates stin idia katigoria me tous "dimokrates politikous"... ase... ti
thes na po parapano?

> Af
> eterou, to diko mou symperasma apo ayta pou eipame ienai oti, ekloges
> den yphrxan, antipoliteysh den yphrxe,

Poses fores tha milisoume gia tis ekloges? Eipame, 2 dimospifismata kai
programatismanes ekloges. As apantisis eki pou eixe prosthesi perisotera.
Oso gia tin "antipoliteusi", ti sxesi eixe prin, meta, h simera me tin
diakibernisi tis xoras?

> diogmoi anitkathestotikwn
> yphrxan dia tis poinikopoihshs politikwn epixeirimatwn,

San PIA? Dose ENA istoriko paradigma. Na topothetis bombes? Na kaneis
apopires dolofonias? Pia "politika apixirimata" poinikopiithikan? To mono
pou mporeis na peis einai oti otan eixe efarmosti stratiotikos nomos (amesos
meta tin Epanastasi) apogoreuontan h sigkentrosi enos sigkekrimenou arithmou
atomon se idiotiki katikia. O monos pou filakistike (kai afethike grigora
eleutheros) htan o proin prothipourgos Kanellopoulos. Kai asfalos, o
stratiotikos nomos katargithike poli prin to 1973.

> kai kata
> synepeia exoume mia klassiki akrodeksia xounta. Ayta gia th morfh tou
> politeymatos.

Giati den e3igis prota ti einai mia "klassiki" akrode3ia, xounta, h
diktatoria. Xrisimopiis olous autous tous orous les kai einai enalaktikoi (h
les kai armozoun sto politeuma)!

> Liga logia gia ton "ethniko kindyno" pou ekane anagkaia ti xounta:

Ena-ena den mporouses na apantisis opos ta parousiasa?

> Eipes oti h syntagmatarxes hthelan na apotrepsoun ton ethniko kyndino.
> Omws h eisbolh stin Kypro egine epi diktatorias ystera apo to

Ep! Pidikses apo to 1967 (ton ethniko kindino gia ton opio milousa) kai
eftases sto 1974! 3ana, poses fores xriazete na epanalambano kati? H
Epanastasi eixe paradosi tin e3ousia tis xoras ton Oktombrio tou 1973 stin
kibernisi Markezini. Ti sxesi exei lipon to Kypriako me tin 21 Apriliou
1967?

> praksikopima kata tou makariou to opoio ekkinhthei apo thn Athina.

To opio KAMIA sxesi den eixe me tin Epanastasi. An thes na sizitisis to
remali ton Makario, kanto toulaxiston se mia alli sizitisi (pou den
sxetizete me tin Epanastasi).

> Synepws mporeis sobara na peis oti h diaxhreish ths xountas twn
> ekswterikwn thematwn meiwse toys kindynous? Dhladh ti xeirwtero
> mporouse na ginei apo mia klassiki kybernish?

H "klassiki kybernish" tou Karamanli, ton Augousto tou 1974, den sikose ena
daxtiko kathos oi tourkoi katelaban to 35% tis Kyprou. H Kypros xathike apo
ton Karamanli, oxi apo tin "xounta".

> Oso gia tin antidhmokratikothta prin to 67:
> kamia dhmokratia den einai idanikh.

Tora dikeologis ta adikeologita! Pos tha me antimetopizes an sou elega
"kamia xounta den einai idaniki" gia na dikeologiso antidimokratikes
pra3eis?

> Omws yparxoun dhmokraties
> kalliteres apo alles dimokraties, kai yparxoun kai mh-dhmokraties. H
> Ellada epi 100 xronia prospathoei na isorropisei se ena dimokratiko
> kathestws. Omws h anwrimotita tou politi, h anwrimothta twn politkwn
> kai olwn twn allwn koinwnikwn etairwn empodizei th dimokratia na
> leitourghsei swsta. Omws yparxei mia tash sygklishs, h beltiwshs ths
> dimokratias. Allo 1900, allo 1950, allo 1980, kai allo 1990.
> P.x. to 1900 dimokratia kai diktatoria sxedwn enallaswtan.

Kaneis lathos h toulaxiston epanalambaneis auta pou lene oi simerinoi
politikoi (kai ta didaskoun kai sta sxoleia). O Benizelos htan "dimokratis"
h "diktaktoras"?

> Metaksy as
> poum 1950 kai 1967 eixame xeiragwgoument (apo to basilia) dimokratia
> me kati notheies, me kati fakelwmata, me kati anwrimous krabgazontes
> aristerous pou den hkseran ti hthelan (ektws apo ekdikish). Alla kai

Kai 3ana lathos. Eixes aristerous pou akoloutousan pista tis odigies 3enou
kratous me anthellinikes apopsis. Eixes de3ious kai aristerous (kai kathe ti
anamesa sta duo apoxromata) pou xrisimopiousan tin bia gia na paroun tin
e3ousia h gia na proothisoun prosopika simferonta.

> pali kallitera apo thn epoxh tou Metaksa.

Giati, ti gnorizeis gia tin "epoxh tou Metaksa" gia na peis tetio pragma?
Posous politikous kratoumenous eixe o Meta3as kai posous o Karamanlis (tin
dekaetia tou 50 h 60)?

> E loipon to 1970 eixe
> paralthei h epoxh twn diktatoriwn, h the eprepe na exei parelthei. To
> hthiko prokalyma gia xeiragwgous eixe pesei. O anthrwpos to 1970 eixe
> ftase sto feggari. Den yparxei dikaiologia. An mas aksize mia
> diktatoria tote ntropi mas.

Ti sxesi exei h selini me to politeuma mias xoras? Poses xores eixan kai
exoun "diktatories" meta to 1970? Kai den to leo auto san na apodexome tin
apopsi sou sxetika me to "diktaktoriko" xaraktira tis Epanastaseos... apla
rotao gia na apodikso apo lathasmeni einai h apopsi sou.

> Telos h oikonomia klp. Mia koinwnia gia na paei mprosta, xreiazetai to
> atomo na exei protoboulia. Na mhn eine xaxolos. H dhmokratia eynwei
> koinwnies ypeythynwn aneksarthtwn politwn. Giati stin poria toy xronou
> o politis mathainei apo ta lathi toy kai h dimokratia orimazei. Otan
> symbei ayto symenei oti o politis kata meso oro einai filotimos kai
> epishs analmbanei protoboylies gia mia kalliteri zwh opws aytos thn
> antilambanetai. Kai etsi oi koinwnia ws to athrisma twn protobouliwn
> twn politwn paei mprosta. Kai h oikonomia kat epektasin epishs. Omws
> otan mia koinwnia kybernatai apo xeiragogous ayto yponoei oti aytoi oi
> kybernhtes kalws h kakws den empisteyontai ton politi. Ara akyrwnoun
> tin kinitira dynamh pou tha ferei oikonomiki proodo. Twra an h xounta
> prosorina symazepse thn oikonomia, ayto einai men mia endeiksi agathis
> prothesis, alla den mporei na ferei aytosyntiroumenh diarkh rpoodo
> giati eksorismou h elleipsi empistosynhs stin krisi tou poiliti
> akyrwnei akribvws ayto.

Den mou les, ekane kaliteri douleia stin oikonomia h Epanastasi apo oti oi
"dimokratikes" kibernisis (prin kai META apo autin)? An auto pou isxirizese
steki, tote tha eixame toulaxiston ton idio bathmo oikonomikis proodou pou
eixame tin periodo 67-73. Exoume?

> Ayto ennousa otan elega oti oi diktatores den eixan krisi oute
> ikanotita. Giati den mporousan na katalaboun oti o Stratos den mporei
> na kybernisei mia xwra kai na ferei proodo.

Tote giati efere proodos h Epanastasi? Ego kitazo to apotelesma, to opio
einai thetiko. Kai o logou pou einai einai giati h diakibernisi egine me
EMPIROGNOMONES kai autoi pou tous anethesan tin douleia eferan prosopiki
EFTHINI. Pes kati antistixo gia tin simerini "dimokratia".

> Eks orismou! Polles fores,
> polloi stratiwtikoi kanoun ayto to sfalma. Giati einai egkenes sti
> nootropia tous. Theloun agnes kathares lyseis.

Me posous stratiotikous exeis milisi?

> Omws aytes apogymnwnoun
> tin koinwnia apo ton polymorfismo pou apaithtai wste dia ths
> diadikasias ths ekseliksis kai fysikis epiloghs, na proodeyei.

Pias "ekseliksis kai fysikis epiloghs"? Gia pia xora kai pio politeuma
milame? Gia tin Epanastasi pou ebale xoriatopeda (me morfosi) se igatikes
thesis, h tin "dimokratia" tou rousfetiou kai tou glipsimatos?

> Oi
> politikoi epidh eklegontai apo tis taseis mias koinwnias einai pio
> katallhloi, ennoiologika efoson o politis psifizei ayton pou ton
> ekproswpei ideologika h ithika.

Kai auto to blepeis esi simera stin Ellada (ase to ti ginotan 30 kai 37
xronia protitera)?

> Kai oxi ayton pou tou dinei pio polles
> gides.

Aaa... tora milas gia tin "dimokratia" tis Elladas!

> Me alla logia h dimokratia leitourgei otan o politis psifizei
> gia to geniko symferon kai oxi gia to atomiko. Giati gnwrizei oti to
> atomiko mono mesa apo to geniko symferon mporei na prokypsei.

Kai autes tis basis ebale h Epanastasi. Sou sinisto na diabasis to sintagma
tou 1968 kai na deis poso diaferi me (h poso tha beltione) tin simerini
katastasi.

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<DVyxb.142641$ri.20...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

> "stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...
>

> Prota ap'ola, tha po oti tha protimousa na apantouses sta epixirimata pou
> ethesa. Sigmoni diladi, alla einai ligo xronoboro na epanalabano merika
> pragmata pou exoume kalispi se ena thema.

Den to ekana gia na parakampsw tin apantish, aplws to fidi arxise na
ginete terastio kai h synoxh xanotan...

>
> > As ta paroum ta pragmata ena ena. Htan diktatoria h den htan? Esy les
> > oti den htan giati htan apotelesma twn prohgoumenwn diergasiwn.
>
> Den eipa POTE tetio pragma.

Eipes oti ena politeyma prepei na to dei kaneis thn epoxh pou synebei
kai na to krinei ws tetoio. Alla den exei simasia to prospernaw.

> Eipa oti den itan diktatoria giati DEN ipirxe
> diktatoras. Htan kratos dikeou kai dimokratikon thesmon. Sou exo zitisi
> arketes fores na ipostiri3is me epixirimata tin apopsi sou oti itan
> diktatoria h "xounta". To oti oi proigoumenes kibernisis den itan
> dimokratikes den exei kamia sxesi me me ti politiki morfi tis Epanastasis...

>
> > Omws h
> > dikatoria den eksartatai apo to pou proekypse alla poly apla ap'ta
> > xaraktiristika tou kathestwtos.
>
> Kai gia pia xaraktiristika milame? Eixe ane3artiti dikeosini? Htan kanenas h
> kamia "omada" h ta3i iperano nomon? Pio sigkekrimeno xaraktiristiko eixe pou
> diaferi apo mia dimokratia (xoris asfalos na mpoume sto thema tis analipsis
> e3ousias)?
>

Den katalabenw... ksexases oti sou eipa 100 fwres oti politeyma pou
den proekypse apo ekloges kai den pratei ekloges meta apo 4 xronia
einai xounta. Teleia kai payla. To an htan kali h kakh xounta einai
allo thema. Esy les ...eee paaali aytes oi ekloges! Alla me ekplhsei
ayto to epixeirhma sou giati h apousia eklogwn einai pou dinei apolyth
dynamh sthn "klika" tou papadopoulou. Me alla logia poios mporouse na
afairesei tin eksousia apo tin klika? Synepws mia omada h klika pou
exei tin eksousia kai mono o eaytos ths mporei na thn afairesei apo
ton eayto ths, ayto den shmainei sygkentrwsh apolyths dynamhs sthn
omada ayth?

> Episis, giati apofeugeis tin singrisi me proigoumenes energies tou stratou
> sti diakibernisi tis xoras (idieteros autes pou "giortazoun" oi simerinoi
> "dimokrates)? Autes simera den tis fonazoume "diktatories", kai oute asfalos
> tous igetes tous "diktatores" (san ton Benizelo). Sosta?
>

Den to apofeygw, apanthsa legontas oti allo 1900 kai allo 1970. Oi
antidimokratikes energeies otan to ellhniko kratos htan akomh sta
spargana kai entomesw polemwn, einai katanohtes kai anapofeyktes. Omws
to 1970 pou o anthrwpos eixe paei sto fegkari, se olh thn eyrwph
yphrxan empedomenes dhmokraties, emeis ws synhthws emfanizomastan ws
of ftwxos sygkenhs. Ftwxos oxi mono oikonomika alla ke politistika.
Einai eirwnia ena kathestos pou yposthrizei thn "ellhnorthodoksia" na
antigrafei tourkikes xountes kai na emfanizei thn ellada tou swkrath
kai tou periklh ws thn monadikh mpanania sthn eyrwph. Kai gi ayto
allwste to ewropaiko symboulio apebale thn Ellada kai h eyrwpaikh
oikonomikh koinotita diekopse tis diapragmateyseis. Giname diethnws
rezili.

> > Les oti den htan akrodeksia paroti
> > politikopoiouse tin ellinorthodoksia opws thn apokaleis.
>
> Gnorizeis ti einai h "akrode3ia"? Prosefere h Epanastasi ergo koinoniko h
> sosialistiko? H apla poulise tin xora gia ta simferonta tou megalou kefaleou
> (opos ekane h ND kai to PASOK)? Simera exeis prosopikotites tis aristeras
> pou ipostirizoun tin "Ellinorthodo3ia" (den tin apokaloun etsi, apla theloun
> na iperaskpisoume ta Ellinika idanika kai tin paradosi mas). Kai aftous,
> "akrode3ious" tous onomazeis?
>

As mh mperdeyoume ta diafora fainomena. Shmera h aristera to
diethnismou kwlwse! Giati o kaliteros diethnistikos mhxanismos einai o
kapitalismos! Kai synepws h akra aristera pou hthele na katarghsei ta
krath, twra thelei ethnikismo! Ws antidoto tou diethnismou pou dia tis
"pagkosmiopoihshs" eynoei thn edraiwsh toy diethnous kapitalismou. H
Akra deksia panta yposthrize lyseis sthrizomenes stis paradosiakes
aksies. Ayto den einai aytonohta kalo! Egw lew oti einai kako! Alla
edw den syzhtame tis politikes mas apopseis. Apla lew oti h
"ellhnorthodoksia" ws politiko ergaleio den einai aftonohto gia olo to
fasma tou politikou systhmatos. Gia tin akribeia o diaxwrismos kratous
kai thriskias einai pagio aitima olou tou politikou fasmatos plhn ths
akrodeksias ypothetw. Allo politiki, allo thriskeia kai paradwseis.
Ektws an eisai akrodeksios.

> > Omws ayth
> > einai h kyria akrodeksia atzenta.
>
> Pia? H Ellinorthodo3ia? Pios to leei auto?
>
> > Episis eipes oti den edeiwkse tnn
> > antipolyteysi, alla o Thewdorakis htan tromokratis...
>
> Den tha katso na 3analeo to kathe pragma xilies fores! Ebaze o Theodorakis
> ekriktikous mixanismous? Htan igetiko stelexos se mia organosi pou ebaze
> bombes kai ekane apopires dolofonias? ESY, ti to onomazeis auto? EINAI h den
> einai tromokratia? H apla epidi mporei na simfoneis me tis apopsis tou
> Theodoraki... dikeologis teties energies (opos kanoun merikoi simera kai me
> ta meloi tis 17N)?
>

O Theodwrakis kala ekane, giati h xounta kathrghse to syntagma me
tanks, kai apetrepse thn eklogh kata pasa pithanothta ths enwshs
kentrou, kai tou andrea. H xounta hthele na apotrepsei ton
kommounistiko kindyno opws ayth kai o basilias ton antilambanwtan. Kai
o kommounistikos kindynos htan o... andreas papandreou. Loipon mias
kai legame gia amerikanous kai CIA klp, phgaine sto
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xvi/ kai diabase ta
gegonota gyrw apo th periodo to 67. Einai ta thlegrafhmata tou
amerikanou presbeyth Talbot pros to State Department. Einai fobera
perigrafika kai apokalyptika. Efaga olo to apogeyma xthes na ta
diabazw giati einai poly glafyrh h perigrafh twn gegonotwn. Tha deis
loipon oti O basilias kai diaforoi alloi eixan panikoblhthei giati
fobotan oxi toso thn aimatoxysia stis eperxomenes ekloges, alla mh
tyxon kai bgei h enwsh kentrou kai dwthei h eykairia ston antrea na
kybernhsei! Giati tote tha efeyge apo th dysh kai tha phgene me th
rwsia (kata th gnwmh tous). Tha deis epishs oti o idios o Talbot
thewroyse yperbolikous aytous tous fobous kai den thewrouse ton andrea
oti ekproswpouse kommounistikes idees. Den thewrouse oti yphrxe
tetoios sobaros kindynos. Kai gia ayto otan h epitropi "303" sto state
department (?) synedriase kai eksetase to endexomeno na dothoun
xrhmata se pio hpeia stoixeia ths EK wste an telike eklegei,
toulaxiston o antreas na mhn epikrathsei, h 303 to aperipse. Gia na
mhn emfanistei oti h amerikh anaktwnetai sti ekloges ths Ellada, kai
epishs giati den thewrouse ton antrea pragmatiko kindyno. En telei apo
ta arxeia ayta fainetai oti o basilias etoimazotan gia praksikopima,
alla ton prolaban oi syntagmatarxes pou ekanan diko tous! Gia ton idio
logo, dhladh gia na mhn eklegei h EK kai o antreas! Dhladh (kai ayto
twra to psiliastika) den epenebei o stratos epidh ton enoxlouse to
syntagma kai o basilias. Oxi! O stratos htan me to basilia mexri aytos
na prospathsei na riksei th xounta. O stratos hthele aplws na
apotrepsei thn eklogh enws kentroaristerou kommatos. Ara h
syntagmatikh ektroph htan katharh! Kai apo pleyras prothesewn.
Ara ti se enoxlei pou o Theodwrakis hthele na riksei th xounta? Kai gw
na hmoun to idio tha hthela.

> > Af'enws loipon
> > faskeis kai antifaskeis, kai afto den bohtha thn aksiopistia twn
> > epixeirimatwn sou, kai den katalabenw giati den to katalabeneis.
>
> Bres mou *ENAN* politiko pou filakistike xoris na ginei kapia diki stin opia
> krithike ENOXOS. Auto apo mono tou ta leei ola. Kai an thes na baleis tous
> tromokrates stin idia katigoria me tous "dimokrates politikous"... ase... ti
> thes na po parapano?
>

Plaka mou kaneis. Gia des sta idia thlegrafhmata, pws eixan xwrisei
tous politikous kratoumenous se typou A,B kai C! Analoga me to poso
epikyndhnoys toys thewrousan... Dhladh h aneksarthth dikaiosynh
kollage tis etiketes a, b ka c? Hthela na hksera, prgmatika
ethelotyfleis?

> > Af
> > eterou, to diko mou symperasma apo ayta pou eipame ienai oti, ekloges
> > den yphrxan, antipoliteysh den yphrxe,
>
> Poses fores tha milisoume gia tis ekloges? Eipame, 2 dimospifismata kai
> programatismanes ekloges. As apantisis eki pou eixe prosthesi perisotera.
> Oso gia tin "antipoliteusi", ti sxesi eixe prin, meta, h simera me tin
> diakibernisi tis xoras?

E twra bre ti na sou pw? Ama den katalabaineis to thesmiko rolo ths
anitpoiliteyshs sth dimokratia, tote egw papw paso...

>
> > diogmoi anitkathestotikwn
> > yphrxan dia tis poinikopoihshs politikwn epixeirimatwn,
>
> San PIA? Dose ENA istoriko paradigma. Na topothetis bombes? Na kaneis
> apopires dolofonias? Pia "politika apixirimata" poinikopiithikan? To mono
> pou mporeis na peis einai oti otan eixe efarmosti stratiotikos nomos (amesos
> meta tin Epanastasi) apogoreuontan h sigkentrosi enos sigkekrimenou arithmou
> atomon se idiotiki katikia. O monos pou filakistike (kai afethike grigora
> eleutheros) htan o proin prothipourgos Kanellopoulos. Kai asfalos, o
> stratiotikos nomos katargithike poli prin to 1973.

Sou synisto na diabaseis ta arxeia pou sou ypedeiksa. Diabase gia tous
A,B kai C typous kratoumenwn. Kai ayto htan mono h arxh. Meta ebgazan
kai tanks gia na katapnhgoun tromokrates ...foithtes... Alla as mhn
pame ekei.

>
> > kai kata
> > synepeia exoume mia klassiki akrodeksia xounta. Ayta gia th morfh tou
> > politeymatos.
>
> Giati den e3igis prota ti einai mia "klassiki" akrode3ia, xounta, h
> diktatoria. Xrisimopiis olous autous tous orous les kai einai enalaktikoi (h
> les kai armozoun sto politeuma)!
>
> > Liga logia gia ton "ethniko kindyno" pou ekane anagkaia ti xounta:
>
> Ena-ena den mporouses na apantisis opos ta parousiasa?
>
> > Eipes oti h syntagmatarxes hthelan na apotrepsoun ton ethniko kyndino.
> > Omws h eisbolh stin Kypro egine epi diktatorias ystera apo to
>
> Ep! Pidikses apo to 1967 (ton ethniko kindino gia ton opio milousa) kai
> eftases sto 1974! 3ana, poses fores xriazete na epanalambano kati? H
> Epanastasi eixe paradosi tin e3ousia tis xoras ton Oktombrio tou 1973 stin
> kibernisi Markezini. Ti sxesi exei lipon to Kypriako me tin 21 Apriliou
> 1967?
>
> > praksikopima kata tou makariou to opoio ekkinhthei apo thn Athina.
>
> To opio KAMIA sxesi den eixe me tin Epanastasi. An thes na sizitisis to
> remali ton Makario, kanto toulaxiston se mia alli sizitisi (pou den
> sxetizete me tin Epanastasi).
>

Gia phgaine sto http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/cyprus/cyprus_history_the_greek_coup_and_the_turkish_invasion.html.
Ekei leei oti h "xounta" tou iwannidi xrhmatodotouse thn EOKA B gia na
riksei to Makario, opws telika kai ekane. Alhtheia den to hkseres
ayto?

Giati oi "antikommounistes" akolouthousan ellinikes paradoseis? Poies
Ellhnikes paradwseis exoun na kanoun me ton kommounismo h ton
kapitalismo. Kai poia xwra einai monadiako symbolo tou
antikommounismou? Bebaia apo ta arxeia tou state department fainetai
oti oi dikoi mas eixan ginei pio antikommounistes apo tous daskalous
toys!

> Eixes de3ious kai aristerous (kai kathe ti
> anamesa sta duo apoxromata) pou xrisimopiousan tin bia gia na paroun tin
> e3ousia h gia na proothisoun prosopika simferonta.
>
> > pali kallitera apo thn epoxh tou Metaksa.
>
> Giati, ti gnorizeis gia tin "epoxh tou Metaksa" gia na peis tetio pragma?
> Posous politikous kratoumenous eixe o Meta3as kai posous o Karamanlis (tin
> dekaetia tou 50 h 60)?
>
> > E loipon to 1970 eixe
> > paralthei h epoxh twn diktatoriwn, h the eprepe na exei parelthei. To
> > hthiko prokalyma gia xeiragwgous eixe pesei. O anthrwpos to 1970 eixe
> > ftase sto feggari. Den yparxei dikaiologia. An mas aksize mia
> > diktatoria tote ntropi mas.
>
> Ti sxesi exei h selini me to politeuma mias xoras? Poses xores eixan kai
> exoun "diktatories" meta to 1970? Kai den to leo auto san na apodexome tin
> apopsi sou sxetika me to "diktaktoriko" xaraktira tis Epanastaseos... apla
> rotao gia na apodikso apo lathasmeni einai h apopsi sou.
>

Egw gia tin eyrwph mhlaw kai gia thn Ellada, to lykno ths dhmokratias
kai th gennethra toy dytikou politismou. Den anaferwme sto
mpananistan.

> > Telos h oikonomia klp. Mia koinwnia gia na paei mprosta, xreiazetai to
> > atomo na exei protoboulia. Na mhn eine xaxolos. H dhmokratia eynwei
> > koinwnies ypeythynwn aneksarthtwn politwn. Giati stin poria toy xronou
> > o politis mathainei apo ta lathi toy kai h dimokratia orimazei. Otan
> > symbei ayto symenei oti o politis kata meso oro einai filotimos kai
> > epishs analmbanei protoboylies gia mia kalliteri zwh opws aytos thn
> > antilambanetai. Kai etsi oi koinwnia ws to athrisma twn protobouliwn
> > twn politwn paei mprosta. Kai h oikonomia kat epektasin epishs. Omws
> > otan mia koinwnia kybernatai apo xeiragogous ayto yponoei oti aytoi oi
> > kybernhtes kalws h kakws den empisteyontai ton politi. Ara akyrwnoun
> > tin kinitira dynamh pou tha ferei oikonomiki proodo. Twra an h xounta
> > prosorina symazepse thn oikonomia, ayto einai men mia endeiksi agathis
> > prothesis, alla den mporei na ferei aytosyntiroumenh diarkh rpoodo
> > giati eksorismou h elleipsi empistosynhs stin krisi tou poiliti
> > akyrwnei akribvws ayto.
>
> Den mou les, ekane kaliteri douleia stin oikonomia h Epanastasi apo oti oi
> "dimokratikes" kibernisis (prin kai META apo autin)? An auto pou isxirizese
> steki, tote tha eixame toulaxiston ton idio bathmo oikonomikis proodou pou
> eixame tin periodo 67-73. Exoume?
>

Den katenohses ti elega. Egw eipa an koitakseis parapanw, oti h
dhmokratia proothei thn oikonomia mono otan exei orimasei (h
dhmokratia). Einai enas syglinwn kyklos anakatosouras pou telika
odhgei stadiaka stin taksi. Stis arxikes faseis astatheias, den
proothei aparethtws thn oikonomia. Kai mporei kalhsta ena kakws
leitourgon dhmokratiko politeyma na exei xeirwterh oikonomia apo mia
diktatoria. Eksypakouetai oti ayto den leei tipota yper tis
diktatorias.

> > Ayto ennousa otan elega oti oi diktatores den eixan krisi oute
> > ikanotita. Giati den mporousan na katalaboun oti o Stratos den mporei
> > na kybernisei mia xwra kai na ferei proodo.
>
> Tote giati efere proodos h Epanastasi? Ego kitazo to apotelesma, to opio
> einai thetiko. Kai o logou pou einai einai giati h diakibernisi egine me
> EMPIROGNOMONES kai autoi pou tous anethesan tin douleia eferan prosopiki
> EFTHINI. Pes kati antistixo gia tin simerini "dimokratia".
>

Apanthsa parapanw. Proodo prosorinh mporei na yparksei. As poume ena
aplo paradeigma (oxi teleios analogo alla endeiktiko). As poume oti
exeis skisei to xeri sou poly. Enas tropos gia na stamatiseis thn
aimoragia einai n baleis anisyptika, na to rapseis klp klp. Enas allos
tropos aplousteros einai na deseis sfyxta to mpratso sou, panw apo thn
plhgh. Loipon to aima tha to stamathseis eykwlotera etsi, alla kapoio
xroniko diastima argotera to xeri sou tha melaniasei, tha sapisei kai
tha pethaneis kai esy. Ayto to lew gia na katadeiksw oti mia prosorini
lysi pou fernei kapoia apotelesmata den einai aparaithtws h kalliterh.

> > Eks orismou! Polles fores,
> > polloi stratiwtikoi kanoun ayto to sfalma. Giati einai egkenes sti
> > nootropia tous. Theloun agnes kathares lyseis.
>
> Me posous stratiotikous exeis milisi?
>

Ah o pateras mou einai stratiwtikos, kai exw kai para pollous filous.
Epishs o pateras mou eixe sylhfthei apo th xounta.

> > Omws aytes apogymnwnoun
> > tin koinwnia apo ton polymorfismo pou apaithtai wste dia ths
> > diadikasias ths ekseliksis kai fysikis epiloghs, na proodeyei.
>
> Pias "ekseliksis kai fysikis epiloghs"? Gia pia xora kai pio politeuma
> milame? Gia tin Epanastasi pou ebale xoriatopeda (me morfosi) se igatikes
> thesis, h tin "dimokratia" tou rousfetiou kai tou glipsimatos?

To oti o politis den symperiferetai orima den anairei thn anagkaothta
ths dhmokratias. Aplws perimenoume kai eyelpistoume oti o politis tha
mathei...

>
> > Oi
> > politikoi epidh eklegontai apo tis taseis mias koinwnias einai pio
> > katallhloi, ennoiologika efoson o politis psifizei ayton pou ton
> > ekproswpei ideologika h ithika.
>
> Kai auto to blepeis esi simera stin Ellada (ase to ti ginotan 30 kai 37
> xronia protitera)?
>

Oxi den einai dystyxws. Kathe allo. Gi ayto eimaste teleytaioi se ola
(sxedon).

> > Kai oxi ayton pou tou dinei pio polles
> > gides.
>
> Aaa... tora milas gia tin "dimokratia" tis Elladas!

To kserw!

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...
> > Prota ap'ola, tha po oti tha protimousa na apantouses sta epixirimata
pou
> > ethesa. Sigmoni diladi, alla einai ligo xronoboro na epanalabano merika
> > pragmata pou exoume kalispi se ena thema.
>
> Den to ekana gia na parakampsw tin apantish, aplws to fidi arxise na
> ginete terastio kai h synoxh xanotan...

Se katanoo, alla einai o sinithes tropos apantisis sto USENET.

> > > As ta paroum ta pragmata ena ena. Htan diktatoria h den htan? Esy les
> > > oti den htan giati htan apotelesma twn prohgoumenwn diergasiwn.
> >
> > Den eipa POTE tetio pragma.
>
> Eipes oti ena politeyma prepei na to dei kaneis thn epoxh pou synebei
> kai na to krinei ws tetoio. Alla den exei simasia to prospernaw.

Tis PRAKSEIS tou NAI, oxi omos to politeuma.

> > Eipa oti den itan diktatoria giati DEN ipirxe
> > diktatoras. Htan kratos dikeou kai dimokratikon thesmon. Sou exo zitisi
> > arketes fores na ipostiri3is me epixirimata tin apopsi sou oti itan
> > diktatoria h "xounta". To oti oi proigoumenes kibernisis den itan
> > dimokratikes den exei kamia sxesi me me ti politiki morfi tis
Epanastasis...
> >

> > Kai gia pia xaraktiristika milame? Eixe ane3artiti dikeosini? Htan
kanenas h
> > kamia "omada" h ta3i iperano nomon? Pio sigkekrimeno xaraktiristiko eixe
pou
> > diaferi apo mia dimokratia (xoris asfalos na mpoume sto thema tis
analipsis
> > e3ousias)?
>
> Den katalabenw... ksexases oti sou eipa 100 fwres oti politeyma pou
> den proekypse apo ekloges kai den pratei ekloges meta apo 4 xronia
> einai xounta. Teleia kai payla.

Pou kai pios to leei auto? Idietera auto gia ta "4 xronia"! Kai pios leei
oti ena antidimokratiko kathestos (an ontos einai etsi stin pragmatikotita)
einai "xounta"?

> To an htan kali h kakh xounta einai
> allo thema.

Giati einai "allo thema"? Proigoumenes energies tou stratou stin
diakibernisi tis xoras simera giortazonte epidi akribos eixan "kalo"
apotelesma (kalo toulaxiston gia tin oligarxia pou kiberna simera).

> Esy les ...eee paaali aytes oi ekloges! Alla me ekplhsei
> ayto to epixeirhma sou giati h apousia eklogwn einai pou dinei apolyth
> dynamh sthn "klika" tou papadopoulou.

Ma o Papadopoulos den eixe "klika"! Kai eki akribos estiazete h sizitisi.
Otan ena sistima einai diabromeno, tote xriazete allagi apo to ena stixio
tis Ellinikis koinonias pou theoritika den prepei na aniki se kamia "klika"
(ton Strato - den tha mpo sto thema tis ekklisias).

> Me alla logia poios mporouse na
> afairesei tin eksousia apo tin klika?

Ma giati na tin aferesis? Tin e3ousia tin PARADOSE *ETHELONTIKA* se poltiki
kibernisi gia tin die3agogi eklogon. Auto kai mono leei polla gia to
politeuma auto.

> Synepws mia omada h klika pou
> exei tin eksousia kai mono o eaytos ths mporei na thn afairesei apo
> ton eayto ths, ayto den shmainei sygkentrwsh apolyths dynamhs sthn
> omada ayth?

Auto pou les armozei apolita stin oligarxia pou kiberna tin Ellada
"dimokratika" simera.

> > Episis, giati apofeugeis tin singrisi me proigoumenes energies tou
stratou
> > sti diakibernisi tis xoras (idieteros autes pou "giortazoun" oi
simerinoi
> > "dimokrates)? Autes simera den tis fonazoume "diktatories", kai oute
asfalos
> > tous igetes tous "diktatores" (san ton Benizelo). Sosta?
>
> Den to apofeygw, apanthsa legontas oti allo 1900 kai allo 1970.

Auti den einai dikeologia! To episimo kratos (SIMERA) anagnorizei kai
giortazei tin anami3i ton enopleon dinameon sta politika themata (tou
parelthontos). Akoma kai gia tin periodo tou 1970 (kai sigkekrimena to 1973)
to kibernon komma (PASOK) anagnorizei kai iperaspizei to "kimina tou
Nautikou" kata tis nomimis kai diethnos anagnorizmenis tote kibernisis
(http://www.pasok.gr/gr/afieromata/politexnio/3.html). Ti leme tora!? An
simfonis me tin arxi oti oi enoples dinamis exoun dikeoma kai kathikon na
pernoun thesi se politika themata (kai na rixnoun h na sximatizoun
kibernisis), tote den mporis na apokalesis tin Ethnosotira Epanastasi oute
paranomi oute "xounta".

> Oi
> antidimokratikes energeies otan to ellhniko kratos htan akomh sta
> spargana kai entomesw polemwn, einai katanohtes kai anapofeyktes.

Simera tis energies autes to episimo kratos den tis apokali
"antidimokratikes". Etsi gia na gnorizoume kai ti lene ta kommatoskula.

> Omws
> to 1970 pou o anthrwpos eixe paei sto fegkari, se olh thn eyrwph
> yphrxan empedomenes dhmokraties, emeis ws synhthws emfanizomastan ws
> of ftwxos sygkenhs.

Pou eides "empedomenes dhmokraties" to 1970 stin Europi? Asfalos tha
anaferese MONO stin ditiki, sosta? Kai asfalos aferis apo autin tin
Portogalia kai tin Ispania, etsi?

> Ftwxos oxi mono oikonomika alla ke politistika.

Oikonomika eimastan KALITERA (se sigrisi me tous allous Europeous) apo'oti
SIMERA! Oso gia
"politismo"... entaksi... brikes to ena thema pou praktika den mporeis na
metrisis! Ti thes na sou po? Posa biblia, diskous, kai tainies ebgales h
Ellada tote kai na tis sigrinoume me ta simerina noumera?

> Einai eirwnia ena kathestos pou yposthrizei thn "ellhnorthodoksia" na
> antigrafei tourkikes xountes kai na emfanizei thn ellada tou swkrath
> kai tou periklh ws thn monadikh mpanania sthn eyrwph.

Pia "tourkiki xounta" antegrapse? Gia dose istorika paradigmata.

> Kai gi ayto
> allwste to ewropaiko symboulio apebale thn Ellada kai h eyrwpaikh

Den tin apebale! H Ellada poli sosta APOXORISE apo enan anthelliniko
organismo. Autos o idios organismos eixe epibali stin "dimokratiki" Ellada
(prin merika xronia?) tin apozimiosi Tourkon pou exasan tin periousia tous
stin... Xalkidiki (meta tin Mikrasiatiki Katastrofi)! Kai ti akribos egine
(ti sinepia eixe) h apoxorisi?

> oikonomikh koinotita diekopse tis diapragmateyseis. Giname diethnws
> rezili.

Den tis diekopse, alla tis eixe "pagosi" PROSORINA. H EOK zitouse tin pliri
efarmogi tou sintagmatos (you 1968) kai ekloges (pragma pou tha ektelouse o
Markezinis). Pou to problima? Kai ti akribos "kerdisame" me tin isodo stin
EOK? H oikonomiki anapti3i PRIN tin isodo stin EOK htan KALITERI. Pou eides
lipon to "rezili"? Oti kathe xrono eimastan proti ston katalogo oikonomikis
paragogikotitas tou OECD?

> > Gnorizeis ti einai h "akrode3ia"? Prosefere h Epanastasi ergo koinoniko
h
> > sosialistiko? H apla poulise tin xora gia ta simferonta tou megalou
kefaleou
> > (opos ekane h ND kai to PASOK)? Simera exeis prosopikotites tis
aristeras
> > pou ipostirizoun tin "Ellinorthodo3ia" (den tin apokaloun etsi, apla
theloun
> > na iperaskpisoume ta Ellinika idanika kai tin paradosi mas). Kai aftous,
> > "akrode3ious" tous onomazeis?
>
> As mh mperdeyoume ta diafora fainomena. Shmera h aristera to
> diethnismou kwlwse! Giati o kaliteros diethnistikos mhxanismos einai o
> kapitalismos! Kai synepws h akra aristera pou hthele na katarghsei ta
> krath, twra thelei ethnikismo! Ws antidoto tou diethnismou pou dia tis
> "pagkosmiopoihshs" eynoei thn edraiwsh toy diethnous kapitalismou.

Ti sxesi exei h Epanastasi, h Ellinorthodo3ia, h oi ethnikistes me tous
"aristerous" pou alazoun apopsis se ethnika themata?

> H
> Akra deksia panta yposthrize lyseis sthrizomenes stis paradosiakes
> aksies.

Profanos enois tin "sintiritiki" parata3i. H "de3ia" den sxetizete mono me
themata politistika. Exei ethnika, oikonomika, kai koinonika programata pou
diaferoun apo auta pou parousiase h Epanastasi. De3ia kai aristera (akoma
kai ta "akra") exoun programata pou eunooun tin basi ("klika") tous. To oti
kamia "klika" den bgenei simera na ipostiri3i tin Epanastasi (an kai OLOI
epofelithikan) ti sou leei?

> Ayto den einai aytonohta kalo! Egw lew oti einai kako! Alla
> edw den syzhtame tis politikes mas apopseis. Apla lew oti h
> "ellhnorthodoksia" ws politiko ergaleio den einai aftonohto gia olo to
> fasma tou politikou systhmatos. Gia tin akribeia o diaxwrismos kratous
> kai thriskias einai pagio aitima olou tou politikou fasmatos plhn ths
> akrodeksias ypothetw. Allo politiki, allo thriskeia kai paradwseis.
> Ektws an eisai akrodeksios.

Kaneis megalo lathos! Den tha asxolitho me ta politeumata alon xoron, alla
stin Ellada den ipirxe kai den iparxi katharos diaxorismos meta3i kratous
kai thriskias. Kai an kai eimai "ektos" fasmatos (oute "mple" oute
"de3ios"), apla apantao gnorizontan ti leei to SIMERINO sintagma, kai ti
thesi exei simera h Ekklisia tis Ellados se politistika themata (akoma kai
se auta pou den sxetizonte me tin Orthodo3ia h ton Xristianismo). An exeis
asfalos problima me auto, balte me olous osous briskonte simera sto
koinoboulio.

> > Pia? H Ellinorthodo3ia? Pios to leei auto?
> >

> > Den tha katso na 3analeo to kathe pragma xilies fores! Ebaze o
Theodorakis
> > ekriktikous mixanismous? Htan igetiko stelexos se mia organosi pou ebaze
> > bombes kai ekane apopires dolofonias? ESY, ti to onomazeis auto? EINAI h
den
> > einai tromokratia? H apla epidi mporei na simfoneis me tis apopsis tou
> > Theodoraki... dikeologis teties energies (opos kanoun merikoi simera kai
me
> > ta meloi tis 17N)?
>
> O Theodwrakis kala ekane, giati h xounta kathrghse to syntagma me

Kai kala kanei kai o kathe psixasthenis pou skotoni athoous anthropous gia
tin alfa bita logo! Kala sobarologis me auto pou eipes?!

Diladi kala ekane kai h 17N epidi eixe kai ekini tous logous tis?

> tanks, kai apetrepse thn eklogh kata pasa pithanothta ths enwshs
> kentrou, kai tou andrea.

Nomiza oti eipes oti den eisai mantis! Tora gnorizeis kai ta eklogika
apotelesmata.... h apla epanalambaneis tis apopsis tin tromokraton?

YG: Terrorism - "the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or
coerce societies or governments".

> H xounta hthele na apotrepsei ton
> kommounistiko kindyno opws ayth kai o basilias ton antilambanwtan. Kai
> o kommounistikos kindynos htan o... andreas papandreou. Loipon mias
> kai legame gia amerikanous kai CIA klp, phgaine sto
> http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xvi/ kai diabase ta
> gegonota gyrw apo th periodo to 67.

Ta exo diabasi otan dimosieutikan. Diabase ta prosektika.

> Einai ta thlegrafhmata tou
> amerikanou presbeyth Talbot pros to State Department. Einai fobera
> perigrafika kai apokalyptika. Efaga olo to apogeyma xthes na ta
> diabazw giati einai poly glafyrh h perigrafh twn gegonotwn. Tha deis
> loipon oti O basilias kai diaforoi alloi eixan panikoblhthei giati
> fobotan oxi toso thn aimatoxysia stis eperxomenes ekloges, alla mh
> tyxon kai bgei h enwsh kentrou kai dwthei h eykairia ston antrea na
> kybernhsei! Giati tote tha efeyge apo th dysh kai tha phgene me th
> rwsia (kata th gnwmh tous). Tha deis epishs oti o idios o Talbot
> thewroyse yperbolikous aytous tous fobous kai den thewrouse ton andrea
> oti ekproswpouse kommounistikes idees. Den thewrouse oti yphrxe
> tetoios sobaros kindynos.

Edo milas gia tis prosopikes apopsis tou Talbot, tis ERE, kai tou Basilia.
Den anaferete katholou stin mistiki simfonia Kanellopoulou-G. Papandreou,
oute sta sxedia you basilia. To oti o Andreas milouse to 1967 gia e3odo apo
tin EOK, NATO, kai amerikanikon baseon... pos to blepeis (ase pos to eblepe
prosopika o Talbot)? To oti o G. Papandreou eixe sinantisi me tous
Amerikanous kai tous zitise SIGNOMI gia auta pou elege o Andreas? To oti
ligo prin tis 21 Apriliou SIMFONOUSE apolita me ton Andrea:

"Athens, April 13, 1967, 2300Z
EK leader asserted that King had made major blunder by giving mandate to
Kanellopoulos and that he has now ceased to be King of all Hellenes. "He is
now King of ERE," and must suffer fate of any party leader. Papandreou made
repeatedly clear that, if Parliament is dissolved and country is led to
elections by ERE government, it will no longer be just Andreas, but all of
EK including himself who will be conducting anti-monarchical campaign. Elder
Papandreou also warned that if dictatorship occurs, he will wage CIVIL WAR.
"

Diladi an den kerdize h EK h apla an h kainourgia kibernisi htan
"diktatoria" (simfana panta me tis apopsis ton Papandreou) tha kirize
EMFILIO POLEMO.

Eixes lipon politikous na milane gia EMFILIO POLEMO kai omos tha'theles tous
stratiotikous na katsoun e3o apo tin ipothesi?!

> Kai gia ayto otan h epitropi "303" sto state
> department (?) synedriase kai eksetase to endexomeno na dothoun
> xrhmata se pio hpeia stoixeia ths EK wste an telike eklegei,
> toulaxiston o antreas na mhn epikrathsei, h 303 to aperipse. Gia na
> mhn emfanistei oti h amerikh anaktwnetai sti ekloges ths Ellada, kai
> epishs giati den thewrouse ton antrea pragmatiko kindyno.

As to diabasoun auto oi ilithioi pou nomizoun oti oi Amerikanoi epebalan tin
"xounta".

> En telei apo
> ta arxeia ayta fainetai oti o basilias etoimazotan gia praksikopima,
> alla ton prolaban oi syntagmatarxes pou ekanan diko tous! Gia ton idio

Ti "praksikopima"?! BASILIAS itan! Tha epebale STRATIOTIKO NOMO (opos ekane
kai h Epanastasi) gia na apofigi tin aimatoxisia.

> logo, dhladh gia na mhn eklegei h EK kai o antreas! Dhladh (kai ayto
> twra to psiliastika) den epenebei o stratos epidh ton enoxlouse to
> syntagma kai o basilias. Oxi! O stratos htan me to basilia mexri aytos
> na prospathsei na riksei th xounta. O stratos hthele aplws na
> apotrepsei thn eklogh enws kentroaristerou kommatos. Ara h
> syntagmatikh ektroph htan katharh! Kai apo pleyras prothesewn.

Kala ti nomizeis oti einai o Stratos? Ena atoma h monolithos? H ierarxia tou
stratou (kathos kai merikoi alloi se xamiloteres thesis) htan uper tou
basilia kai kata kathe ti pou o idios den ipostirize. Asfalos kai
"kentroous" eixe, kathos kai "aristerous" kai "de3ious". H pliopsifia pantos
ipostirize tin Epanastasi kai gi'auto to logo apetixe o basilias.

> Ara ti se enoxlei pou o Theodwrakis hthele na riksei th xounta? Kai gw
> na hmoun to idio tha hthela.

H "xounta" den dolofonise kanenan. Oute tromokratouse athoous polites. O
Theodorakis kai alloi "politikoi" (opos kai h 17N) den eixan tetio problima.

Kai euxaristo 3ana pou les oti den exeis problima me tin dolofonia Ellinon
(malista tha eixes kai simetoxi)!

> > Bres mou *ENAN* politiko pou filakistike xoris na ginei kapia diki stin
opia
> > krithike ENOXOS. Auto apo mono tou ta leei ola. Kai an thes na baleis
tous
> > tromokrates stin idia katigoria me tous "dimokrates politikous"...
ase... ti
> > thes na po parapano?
>
> Plaka mou kaneis. Gia des sta idia thlegrafhmata, pws eixan xwrisei
> tous politikous kratoumenous se typou A,B kai C! Analoga me to poso
> epikyndhnoys toys thewrousan... Dhladh h aneksarthth dikaiosynh
> kollage tis etiketes a, b ka c? Hthela na hksera, prgmatika
> ethelotyfleis?

Milas tora gia epiboli STRATIOTIKOU NOMOU amesos meta tis 21 Apriliou. Kai
asfalos, otan exeis "politikous" pou odigousan tin xora ste kainourgio
emfilio (opos oi idioi diakiri3an)... tote dikeologite h PROSORINI *KRATISI*
tous (kathos afethikan eleutheroi osi den profilakistikan gia diki).

> > Poses fores tha milisoume gia tis ekloges? Eipame, 2 dimospifismata kai
> > programatismanes ekloges. As apantisis eki pou eixe prosthesi
perisotera.
> > Oso gia tin "antipoliteusi", ti sxesi eixe prin, meta, h simera me tin
> > diakibernisi tis xoras?
>
> E twra bre ti na sou pw? Ama den katalabaineis to thesmiko rolo ths
> anitpoiliteyshs sth dimokratia, tote egw papw paso...

Olo "thesmikous" rolous exei auti h "dimokratia"!! PRAKTIKOUS den exei
katholou?!

> > San PIA? Dose ENA istoriko paradigma. Na topothetis bombes? Na kaneis
> > apopires dolofonias? Pia "politika apixirimata" poinikopiithikan? To
mono
> > pou mporeis na peis einai oti otan eixe efarmosti stratiotikos nomos
(amesos
> > meta tin Epanastasi) apogoreuontan h sigkentrosi enos sigkekrimenou
arithmou
> > atomon se idiotiki katikia. O monos pou filakistike (kai afethike
grigora
> > eleutheros) htan o proin prothipourgos Kanellopoulos. Kai asfalos, o
> > stratiotikos nomos katargithike poli prin to 1973.
>
> Sou synisto na diabaseis ta arxeia pou sou ypedeiksa. Diabase gia tous
> A,B kai C typous kratoumenwn. Kai ayto htan mono h arxh. Meta ebgazan
> kai tanks gia na katapnhgoun tromokrates ...foithtes... Alla as mhn
> pame ekei.

Dose istorika ntokoumenta pou ipostirisoun auto pou les gia ta "tanks".
Psemata einai OLA. Oso gia tous KRATOUMENOUS, auto htan PROSORINO otan
efarmostike STRATIOTIKOS NOMOS gia apofigi EMFILIOU POLEMOU. Kanenas den
filakistike xoris diki stin opia krithike enoxos apo tin ane3artiti
dikeosini.

Simera se OLES tis dimokraties iparxi kai epitrepete dia nomou h PROSORINI
KRATISI.

> > Giati den e3igis prota ti einai mia "klassiki" akrode3ia, xounta, h
> > diktatoria. Xrisimopiis olous autous tous orous les kai einai
enalaktikoi (h
> > les kai armozoun sto politeuma)!

No comment?

> > Ena-ena den mporouses na apantisis opos ta parousiasa?
> >

> > Ep! Pidikses apo to 1967 (ton ethniko kindino gia ton opio milousa) kai
> > eftases sto 1974! 3ana, poses fores xriazete na epanalambano kati? H
> > Epanastasi eixe paradosi tin e3ousia tis xoras ton Oktombrio tou 1973
stin
> > kibernisi Markezini. Ti sxesi exei lipon to Kypriako me tin 21 Apriliou
> > 1967?
> >

> > To opio KAMIA sxesi den eixe me tin Epanastasi. An thes na sizitisis to
> > remali ton Makario, kanto toulaxiston se mia alli sizitisi (pou den
> > sxetizete me tin Epanastasi).
>
> Gia phgaine sto
http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/cyprus/cyprus_history_the_greek_coup_and_the
_turkish_invasion.html.
> Ekei leei oti h "xounta" tou iwannidi xrhmatodotouse thn EOKA B gia na
> riksei to Makario, opws telika kai ekane. Alhtheia den to hkseres
> ayto?

Ti sxesi exoun oi pra3eis opiondipote stratiotikon to 1974 me tin Epanastasi
h opia paredose tin e3ousia ton Oktombrio tou 1973? Thes na milisis gia tin
kibernisi Gkiziki? Kanto se alli sizitisi, edo milame gia to ergo tis
Epanastasis!

> > H "klassiki kybernish" tou Karamanli, ton Augousto tou 1974, den sikose
ena
> > daxtiko kathos oi tourkoi katelaban to 35% tis Kyprou. H Kypros xathike
apo
> > ton Karamanli, oxi apo tin "xounta".

Xoris sxolio 3ana?

> > > Oso gia tin antidhmokratikothta prin to 67:
> > > kamia dhmokratia den einai idanikh.
> >
> > Tora dikeologis ta adikeologita! Pos tha me antimetopizes an sou elega
> > "kamia xounta den einai idaniki" gia na dikeologiso antidimokratikes
> > pra3eis?
> >

> > Kaneis lathos h toulaxiston epanalambaneis auta pou lene oi simerinoi
> > politikoi (kai ta didaskoun kai sta sxoleia). O Benizelos htan
"dimokratis"
> > h "diktaktoras"?

3ana?

> > > Metaksy as
> > > poum 1950 kai 1967 eixame xeiragwgoument (apo to basilia) dimokratia
> > > me kati notheies, me kati fakelwmata, me kati anwrimous krabgazontes
> > > aristerous pou den hkseran ti hthelan (ektws apo ekdikish). Alla kai
> >
> > Kai 3ana lathos. Eixes aristerous pou akoloutousan pista tis odigies
3enou
> > kratous me anthellinikes apopsis.
>
> Giati oi "antikommounistes" akolouthousan ellinikes paradoseis? Poies

Gia "paradosis" sou milisa? Mathe gia tin thesi tou KKE sto Makedoniko
zitima, kai meta ela na mas milisis.

> Ellhnikes paradwseis exoun na kanoun me ton kommounismo h ton
> kapitalismo. Kai poia xwra einai monadiako symbolo tou
> antikommounismou? Bebaia apo ta arxeia tou state department fainetai
> oti oi dikoi mas eixan ginei pio antikommounistes apo tous daskalous
> toys!

Oi kommounistes stin Ellada eixan kathara ANTHELLINIKES apopsis,
akolouthontas pista apofasis pou ebgaze h Mosxa (kai malista, auto diespase
to KKE to 1968). Auta den ta leei enas "xountikos", ta lene oi kommounistes
pou dimiourgisan to 1968 (ti stigmi diladi pou theoritika tha eprepe na
maxonte kata tis "xountas") to KKE Esoterikou.

> > Giati, ti gnorizeis gia tin "epoxh tou Metaksa" gia na peis tetio
pragma?
> > Posous politikous kratoumenous eixe o Meta3as kai posous o Karamanlis
(tin
> > dekaetia tou 50 h 60)?
> >

> > Ti sxesi exei h selini me to politeuma mias xoras? Poses xores eixan kai
> > exoun "diktatories" meta to 1970? Kai den to leo auto san na apodexome
tin
> > apopsi sou sxetika me to "diktaktoriko" xaraktira tis Epanastaseos...
apla
> > rotao gia na apodikso apo lathasmeni einai h apopsi sou.
>
> Egw gia tin eyrwph mhlaw kai gia thn Ellada, to lykno ths dhmokratias
> kai th gennethra toy dytikou politismou.

Egrapsa gia tin "dimokratiki" Europi tou 1970... ase!

> Den anaferwme sto
> mpananistan.

Akoma psaxno ton xarti na to bro...

> > Den mou les, ekane kaliteri douleia stin oikonomia h Epanastasi apo oti
oi
> > "dimokratikes" kibernisis (prin kai META apo autin)? An auto pou
isxirizese
> > steki, tote tha eixame toulaxiston ton idio bathmo oikonomikis proodou
pou
> > eixame tin periodo 67-73. Exoume?
>
> Den katenohses ti elega. Egw eipa an koitakseis parapanw, oti h
> dhmokratia proothei thn oikonomia mono otan exei orimasei (h
> dhmokratia). Einai enas syglinwn kyklos anakatosouras pou telika
> odhgei stadiaka stin taksi. Stis arxikes faseis astatheias, den
> proothei aparethtws thn oikonomia. Kai mporei kalhsta ena kakws
> leitourgon dhmokratiko politeyma na exei xeirwterh oikonomia apo mia
> diktatoria. Eksypakouetai oti ayto den leei tipota yper tis
> diktatorias.

Proti fora akoo tetio pragma! Ti exei to politeuma (h "dimokratikotita") na
kanei tin oikonomia? Kai den milao gia kapitalismo h sosialismo, alla gia
"dimokratia" kai "diktatoria"! Mporeis na mou breis ENAN oikonomologo pou
exei grapsi kati sxetiko. Oxi tipota, apla exo kanei mataptixiako kai sta
oikonomika pote den akousa kati tetio.

> > Tote giati efere proodos h Epanastasi? Ego kitazo to apotelesma, to opio
> > einai thetiko. Kai o logou pou einai einai giati h diakibernisi egine me
> > EMPIROGNOMONES kai autoi pou tous anethesan tin douleia eferan prosopiki
> > EFTHINI. Pes kati antistixo gia tin simerini "dimokratia".
>
> Apanthsa parapanw. Proodo prosorinh mporei na yparksei. As poume ena

Kai pios oikonomologos dinei logous (h exei meletisi to thema) gi'auto? Dose
me kana ISBN gia na kano mia analisi kai ego.

> aplo paradeigma (oxi teleios analogo alla endeiktiko). As poume oti
> exeis skisei to xeri sou poly. Enas tropos gia na stamatiseis thn
> aimoragia einai n baleis anisyptika, na to rapseis klp klp. Enas allos
> tropos aplousteros einai na deseis sfyxta to mpratso sou, panw apo thn
> plhgh. Loipon to aima tha to stamathseis eykwlotera etsi, alla kapoio
> xroniko diastima argotera to xeri sou tha melaniasei, tha sapisei kai
> tha pethaneis kai esy. Ayto to lew gia na katadeiksw oti mia prosorini
> lysi pou fernei kapoia apotelesmata den einai aparaithtws h kalliterh.

Kai kapioi gelousan me ton Papadopoulo pou milouse gia "gipsous"! :)

> > > Eks orismou! Polles fores,
> > > polloi stratiwtikoi kanoun ayto to sfalma. Giati einai egkenes sti
> > > nootropia tous. Theloun agnes kathares lyseis.
> >
> > Me posous stratiotikous exeis milisi?
> >
> Ah o pateras mou einai stratiwtikos, kai exw kai para pollous filous.
> Epishs o pateras mou eixe sylhfthei apo th xounta.

Kai oloi tous (h oi perisoteroi) theloun "agnes kathares lyseis"?! Se pio
pedio maxis perimenoun na polemisoun gia na efarmosoun "agnes kathares
lyseis"? Giati an einai na "kanoun ayto to sfalma" tote to strateuma einai
gia klamata!

> > Pias "ekseliksis kai fysikis epiloghs"? Gia pia xora kai pio politeuma
> > milame? Gia tin Epanastasi pou ebale xoriatopeda (me morfosi) se
igatikes
> > thesis, h tin "dimokratia" tou rousfetiou kai tou glipsimatos?
>
> To oti o politis den symperiferetai orima den anairei thn anagkaothta
> ths dhmokratias. Aplws perimenoume kai eyelpistoume oti o politis tha
> mathei...

"Eueplistoume" akoma kai otan to sistima katastrefi tin xora kai tin odigi
se emfilio polemo? Gia na exeis DIMOkratia, tin dinami xriazete na tin exoun
oi POLITES, kai oxi h oligarxia. To oti den exoume mia dimokratia pou
litourgi einai epidi den exoume tous SOSTOUS DIMOKRATIKOUS thesmous. Kamia
sxesi me tin "orimotita" tou Ellina.

> > > Oi
> > > politikoi epidh eklegontai apo tis taseis mias koinwnias einai pio
> > > katallhloi, ennoiologika efoson o politis psifizei ayton pou ton
> > > ekproswpei ideologika h ithika.
> >
> > Kai auto to blepeis esi simera stin Ellada (ase to ti ginotan 30 kai 37
> > xronia protitera)?
>
> Oxi den einai dystyxws. Kathe allo. Gi ayto eimaste teleytaioi se ola
> (sxedon).

Epidi DEN exoume dimokratia. Sosta! An ontos eixame dimokratia, den tha
eixes tous polites na ipostirizoun tin oligraxia gia prosopika ofelimata.

> > > Kai oxi ayton pou tou dinei pio polles
> > > gides.
> >
> > Aaa... tora milas gia tin "dimokratia" tis Elladas!
>
> To kserw!

Afou simfonoume oti den exoume dimokratia stin Ellada (opos ipostirize h
17N), den bazoume kai emeis bombes mpas kai mpoume sto koinoboulio? To
sigouro einai oti den tha eimaste "tromokrates"!

> > > Me alla logia h dimokratia leitourgei otan o politis psifizei
> > > gia to geniko symferon kai oxi gia to atomiko. Giati gnwrizei oti to
> > > atomiko mono mesa apo to geniko symferon mporei na prokypsei.
> >
> > Kai autes tis basis ebale h Epanastasi. Sou sinisto na diabasis to
sintagma
> > tou 1968 kai na deis poso diaferi me (h poso tha beltione) tin simerini
> > katastasi.

Akoma den to diabases. Gia rikse mia matia kai ela meta na mou peis gia
gnisia dimokratia.

[stardimi***]

Sorry pou ksanakanw reset sto thread alla exei xathei pali h synoxh.
Tha prospathsw na synopsisw to problhma opws to antilambanomai.
Allwste osa exeoun ypothei einai parapanw sto thread.

Nomizw loipon oti to problhma exei ws ekseis. Esy dexesai oles tis
aitiaseis twn syntagmatarxwn, oti dhladh yphrxe kindynos gia th xwra
kai ara h praksi tous na analaboun th diakybernhsh ths xwras paroti
kati tetoio den problepotan apo to syntagma htan anagkaia. Eks ou kai
h "Ethnoswthrios" epanastasi. Swsta?

An omws anairesoume thn ypothesh oti yphrxe sobaros kai profanhs
"ethnikos kindynos" tote h ekdoxh oti htan aplws mia diktatoria pou
anterepse to syntagma kai periorise tis estw kai ateleis eleytheries
twn politwn, yperixyei. Ara htan ena paranomo politeyma. Swsta?

Telika olh h diafora mas fainetai na kataligei se afto to aplo metro
tou kindynou.

[stardimi***]

"Dionysios Pilarinos" <dpil...@SPAMTRAP.hellas.org> wrote in message news:<xhfyb.148087$ri.21...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...

> "stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1edf1f1b.03112...@posting.google.com...

> > > Prota ap'ola, tha po oti tha protimousa na apantouses sta epixirimata
> pou
> > > ethesa. Sigmoni diladi, alla einai ligo xronoboro na epanalabano merika
> > > pragmata pou exoume kalispi se ena thema.
> >
> > Den to ekana gia na parakampsw tin apantish, aplws to fidi arxise na
> > ginete terastio kai h synoxh xanotan...
>
> Se katanoo, alla einai o sinithes tropos apantisis sto USENET.
>
> > > > As ta paroum ta pragmata ena ena. Htan diktatoria h den htan? Esy les
> > > > oti den htan giati htan apotelesma twn prohgoumenwn diergasiwn.
> > >
> > > Den eipa POTE tetio pragma.
> >
> > Eipes oti ena politeyma prepei na to dei kaneis thn epoxh pou synebei
> > kai na to krinei ws tetoio. Alla den exei simasia to prospernaw.
>
> Tis PRAKSEIS tou NAI, oxi omos to politeuma.

symfwnoi. alla des parakatw pou anfisbiteis ton eayto sou.

>
> > > Eipa oti den itan diktatoria giati DEN ipirxe
> > > diktatoras. Htan kratos dikeou kai dimokratikon thesmon. Sou exo zitisi
> > > arketes fores na ipostiri3is me epixirimata tin apopsi sou oti itan
> > > diktatoria h "xounta". To oti oi proigoumenes kibernisis den itan
> > > dimokratikes den exei kamia sxesi me me ti politiki morfi tis
> Epanastasis...
> > >
> > > Kai gia pia xaraktiristika milame? Eixe ane3artiti dikeosini? Htan
> kanenas h
> > > kamia "omada" h ta3i iperano nomon? Pio sigkekrimeno xaraktiristiko eixe
> pou
> > > diaferi apo mia dimokratia (xoris asfalos na mpoume sto thema tis
> analipsis
> > > e3ousias)?
> >
> > Den katalabenw... ksexases oti sou eipa 100 fwres oti politeyma pou
> > den proekypse apo ekloges kai den pratei ekloges meta apo 4 xronia
> > einai xounta. Teleia kai payla.
>
> Pou kai pios to leei auto? Idietera auto gia ta "4 xronia"! Kai pios leei
> oti ena antidimokratiko kathestos (an ontos einai etsi stin pragmatikotita)
> einai "xounta"?
>

Ena kathestws pou epi 7 xronia den eprakse ekloges kai pou katelabe
thn eksousia me tanks einai diktatoria.

> > To an htan kali h kakh xounta einai
> > allo thema.
>
> Giati einai "allo thema"? Proigoumenes energies tou stratou stin
> diakibernisi tis xoras simera giortazonte epidi akribos eixan "kalo"
> apotelesma (kalo toulaxiston gia tin oligarxia pou kiberna simera).
>

Monos sou to paradexthikes oti einai allo thema. koita ligo pio panw
ekie pou les allo to politeyma kai allo oi PRAKSEIS. Stamata na
diafwneis mono gia ti diafwnia.

> > Esy les ...eee paaali aytes oi ekloges! Alla me ekplhsei
> > ayto to epixeirhma sou giati h apousia eklogwn einai pou dinei apolyth
> > dynamh sthn "klika" tou papadopoulou.
>
> Ma o Papadopoulos den eixe "klika"! Kai eki akribos estiazete h sizitisi.
> Otan ena sistima einai diabromeno, tote xriazete allagi apo to ena stixio
> tis Ellinikis koinonias pou theoritika den prepei na aniki se kamia "klika"
> (ton Strato - den tha mpo sto thema tis ekklisias).
>

Kaneis den dexthke oti o stratos exei mataksy alwn rolo antikeimenikou
parathrith tou politikou gignesthe. Kathe allo, mono antikeimenikos
den einai. Dhladh an oi tou ASPIDA ekanan praksikopima esy tha hsoun
mazi tous? Tha tous thewrouses oti einai antikeimenikoi krites? Alla
fysika oi "alloi" ths "Ellhnorthodoksias" einai oi kaloi krites...

> > Me alla logia poios mporouse na
> > afairesei tin eksousia apo tin klika?
>
> Ma giati na tin aferesis? Tin e3ousia tin PARADOSE *ETHELONTIKA* se poltiki
> kibernisi gia tin die3agogi eklogon. Auto kai mono leei polla gia to
> politeuma auto.
>

Edw ypekfeygeis. Egw den rwthsa ayto, egw rwthsa pios thesmikos
mhxanismos yphrxe afaireshs ths eksousias apo thn klika. Peran toy
eaytou ths. aplws gia na katadhksw oti sygkentrwne apolyth dynamh kai
ara htan diktatoria.

> > Synepws mia omada h klika pou
> > exei tin eksousia kai mono o eaytos ths mporei na thn afairesei apo
> > ton eayto ths, ayto den shmainei sygkentrwsh apolyths dynamhs sthn
> > omada ayth?
>
> Auto pou les armozei apolita stin oligarxia pou kiberna tin Ellada
> "dimokratika" simera.
>

Pali ypekfeygeis.

> > > Episis, giati apofeugeis tin singrisi me proigoumenes energies tou
> stratou
> > > sti diakibernisi tis xoras (idieteros autes pou "giortazoun" oi
> simerinoi
> > > "dimokrates)? Autes simera den tis fonazoume "diktatories", kai oute
> asfalos
> > > tous igetes tous "diktatores" (san ton Benizelo). Sosta?
> >
> > Den to apofeygw, apanthsa legontas oti allo 1900 kai allo 1970.
>
> Auti den einai dikeologia! To episimo kratos (SIMERA) anagnorizei kai
> giortazei tin anami3i ton enopleon dinameon sta politika themata (tou
> parelthontos).

Kai kala kanei. allo o rolos tou stratou otan h xwra htan se fash
ethnogenneshs kai allo to 1970 otan or rolos tou stratou htan aytos
pou problepotan apo to syntagma ths basileyomenhs koinobouleytikhs
dhmokratias. An den tous arese to syntagma mporouse h anathewrhsh na
ginei meros ths politikhs atzentas enws kommatos kai me ekloges o laos
na apofasisei anathewrhsh. Allwste panw katw h EK eixe tetoia atzenta.
O stratos den eixe kamia douleia peran ths fylakshs twn synorwn.

> Akoma kai gia tin periodo tou 1970 (kai sigkekrimena to 1973)
> to kibernon komma (PASOK) anagnorizei kai iperaspizei to "kimina tou
> Nautikou" kata tis nomimis kai diethnos anagnorizmenis tote kibernisis
> (http://www.pasok.gr/gr/afieromata/politexnio/3.html). Ti leme tora!?

Nai ti leme twra? An apodextoume oti h diktatoria htan paranomh tote,
to kinhma tou naytikou pou apeylepe sthn epanafora ths nomimotitas
htan kathola nomimo. Opws fanhke kai ligo argotera h xounta eixe thn
yposthriksh mono tou 1% tou laou opws fanhke apo tis psifous ths epen.
Synepws pios htan paranomos?

> An
> simfonis me tin arxi oti oi enoples dinamis exoun dikeoma kai kathikon na
> pernoun thesi se politika themata (kai na rixnoun h na sximatizoun
> kibernisis), tote den mporis na apokalesis tin Ethnosotira Epanastasi oute
> paranomi oute "xounta".
>
> > Oi
> > antidimokratikes energeies otan to ellhniko kratos htan akomh sta
> > spargana kai entomesw polemwn, einai katanohtes kai anapofeyktes.
>
> Simera tis energies autes to episimo kratos den tis apokali
> "antidimokratikes". Etsi gia na gnorizoume kai ti lene ta kommatoskula.

De nomizw, iswn na mhlame gia allo pragma. O Benizelos tygxanh genikhs
anagnwrishs, opws kai peripou o Metaksas. Kai polloi alloi. Alla ws
synhthws antifaskeis. Ligo pio prin eipes oti ta "kommatoskyla"
giortazoun tous diktatores (Venizelos klp). Twra tous brhseis epidei
ypoththetai oti tous apokaloun antidhmokrates? Dhladh tha apofasiseis
epitelous?

>
> > Omws
> > to 1970 pou o anthrwpos eixe paei sto fegkari, se olh thn eyrwph
> > yphrxan empedomenes dhmokraties, emeis ws synhthws emfanizomastan ws
> > of ftwxos sygkenhs.
>
> Pou eides "empedomenes dhmokraties" to 1970 stin Europi? Asfalos tha
> anaferese MONO stin ditiki, sosta? Kai asfalos aferis apo autin tin
> Portogalia kai tin Ispania, etsi?

Prepei kapote nas stamathsoume na xrhsimopoioume ws dikeologia oti
afou einai ena dyo alloi mazi mas ston pato, ara entaksei eimaste. Kai
oi alloi (p.x. ispania) katalabenoun oti o patos den einai kalos kai
payoun na mas kanoun parea. Twra seira exoun oi anatolikes xwres. Se
liga xroinia kai aytes tha arxisoun na mas pernane! Xwris kammia
amfibolia.

>
> > Ftwxos oxi mono oikonomika alla ke politistika.
>
> Oikonomika eimastan KALITERA (se sigrisi me tous allous Europeous) apo'oti
> SIMERA! Oso gia
> "politismo"... entaksi... brikes to ena thema pou praktika den mporeis na
> metrisis! Ti thes na sou po? Posa biblia, diskous, kai tainies ebgales h
> Ellada tote kai na tis sigrinoume me ta simerina noumera?
>

Den anaferwmoun sthn kallitexnikh ekdoxh, xwris na thnypothmw.
Anaferwmoun sthn politikh koultoura, sto sygkekrimeno paradeigma.

> > Einai eirwnia ena kathestos pou yposthrizei thn "ellhnorthodoksia" na
> > antigrafei tourkikes xountes kai na emfanizei thn ellada tou swkrath
> > kai tou periklh ws thn monadikh mpanania sthn eyrwph.
>
> Pia "tourkiki xounta" antegrapse? Gia dose istorika paradigmata.
>

Eyxaristws. Apokoma apo ta legomena tou patakou kata ton Talbot:

"282. Telegram From the Embassy in Greece to the Department of
State/1/

Athens, April 28, 1967, 2015Z.
....
5. We wasted little time on military aspects of takeover. As to ways
in which his group will move to next phase of governmental operations,
he [patakos] had studied problems Ayub and Turkish military leaders
had faced in managing government after their military takeovers, and
would draw on their experience while adding essentially Greek
approaches. With confidence born of one week's experience, he felt
sure new GOG could operate Greece's official establishment much more
effectively than had its predecessors."

> > Kai gi ayto
> > allwste to ewropaiko symboulio apebale thn Ellada kai h eyrwpaikh
>
> Den tin apebale! H Ellada poli sosta APOXORISE apo enan anthelliniko
> organismo. Autos o idios organismos eixe epibali stin "dimokratiki" Ellada
> (prin merika xronia?) tin apozimiosi Tourkon pou exasan tin periousia tous
> stin... Xalkidiki (meta tin Mikrasiatiki Katastrofi)! Kai ti akribos egine
> (ti sinepia eixe) h apoxorisi?
>

Gia des to parakatw:

"The European Commission of Human Rights produced in 1969 a massively
documented report in which it found that in April 1967 there had been
no emergency threatening the life of the nation which would have
justified Greece derogating from the European Convention of Human
Rights, and that there had indeed been torture and degrading treatment
of the regime's opponents. This was holly contested by the regime, but
nonetheless in December 1969 the foreign minister, Panayiotis
Pipinelis, withdrew Greece from the Council of Europe on the eve of a
meeting of the Council of Ministers at which Greece would almost
certainly have been expelled."

From A Short History of Modern Greece, by Richard Clogg (Cambridge
University Press, 1985)

>
> > oikonomikh koinotita diekopse tis diapragmateyseis. Giname diethnws
> > rezili.
>
> Den tis diekopse, alla tis eixe "pagosi" PROSORINA. H EOK zitouse tin pliri
> efarmogi tou sintagmatos (you 1968) kai ekloges (pragma pou tha ektelouse o
> Markezinis). Pou to problima? Kai ti akribos "kerdisame" me tin isodo stin
> EOK? H oikonomiki anapti3i PRIN tin isodo stin EOK htan KALITERI. Pou eides
> lipon to "rezili"? Oti kathe xrono eimastan proti ston katalogo oikonomikis
> paragogikotitas tou OECD?
>

Me to na paksiwneis aytous sous opoious ginesai rezili den anaireis to
reziliki. antityhtws ginesai pio poly rezili.

> > > Gnorizeis ti einai h "akrode3ia"? Prosefere h Epanastasi ergo koinoniko
> h
> > > sosialistiko? H apla poulise tin xora gia ta simferonta tou megalou
> kefaleou
> > > (opos ekane h ND kai to PASOK)? Simera exeis prosopikotites tis
> aristeras
> > > pou ipostirizoun tin "Ellinorthodo3ia" (den tin apokaloun etsi, apla
> theloun
> > > na iperaskpisoume ta Ellinika idanika kai tin paradosi mas). Kai aftous,
> > > "akrode3ious" tous onomazeis?
> >
> > As mh mperdeyoume ta diafora fainomena. Shmera h aristera to
> > diethnismou kwlwse! Giati o kaliteros diethnistikos mhxanismos einai o
> > kapitalismos! Kai synepws h akra aristera pou hthele na katarghsei ta
> > krath, twra thelei ethnikismo! Ws antidoto tou diethnismou pou dia tis
> > "pagkosmiopoihshs" eynoei thn edraiwsh toy diethnous kapitalismou.
>
> Ti sxesi exei h Epanastasi, h Ellinorthodo3ia, h oi ethnikistes me tous
> "aristerous" pou alazoun apopsis se ethnika themata?

Bre sy des ti eipes dyo paragrafous pio panw. Se ayto sou apanthsa...

>
> > H
> > Akra deksia panta yposthrize lyseis sthrizomenes stis paradosiakes
> > aksies.
>
> Profanos enois tin "sintiritiki" parata3i.

Egw lew gia tin akra deksia. Oxi gia thgn "synthritkh parataksh, oute
gia ti fileleytherh. Milaw gia ytous pou psifizoun epen h ton xeri
xeri.

> H "de3ia" den sxetizete mono me
> themata politistika. Exei ethnika, oikonomika, kai koinonika programata pou
> diaferoun apo auta pou parousiase h Epanastasi. De3ia kai aristera (akoma
> kai ta "akra") exoun programata pou eunooun tin basi ("klika") tous. To oti
> kamia "klika" den bgenei simera na ipostiri3i tin Epanastasi (an kai OLOI
> epofelithikan) ti sou leei?

Kserw gw esena ti sou leiei?

>
> > Ayto den einai aytonohta kalo! Egw lew oti einai kako! Alla
> > edw den syzhtame tis politikes mas apopseis. Apla lew oti h
> > "ellhnorthodoksia" ws politiko ergaleio den einai aftonohto gia olo to
> > fasma tou politikou systhmatos. Gia tin akribeia o diaxwrismos kratous
> > kai thriskias einai pagio aitima olou tou politikou fasmatos plhn ths
> > akrodeksias ypothetw. Allo politiki, allo thriskeia kai paradwseis.
> > Ektws an eisai akrodeksios.
>
> Kaneis megalo lathos! Den tha asxolitho me ta politeumata alon xoron, alla
> stin Ellada den ipirxe kai den iparxi katharos diaxorismos meta3i kratous
> kai thriskias. Kai an kai eimai "ektos" fasmatos (oute "mple" oute
> "de3ios"), apla apantao gnorizontan ti leei to SIMERINO sintagma, kai ti
> thesi exei simera h Ekklisia tis Ellados se politistika themata (akoma kai
> se auta pou den sxetizonte me tin Orthodo3ia h ton Xristianismo). An exeis
> asfalos problima me auto, balte me olous osous briskonte simera sto
> koinoboulio.

Den kanw lathos. Egw den eipa ti problepei to syntagma. Lew oti kata
kairous ola ta komata plin twn akrodeksiwn exoun epishmws ekfrastei
yper dou diaxwrismou kratous-ekklisias. Akomh kai h idia h ekklisia an
den kanw lathos.

>
> > > Pia? H Ellinorthodo3ia? Pios to leei auto?
> > >
> > > Den tha katso na 3analeo to kathe pragma xilies fores! Ebaze o
> Theodorakis
> > > ekriktikous mixanismous? Htan igetiko stelexos se mia organosi pou ebaze
> > > bombes kai ekane apopires dolofonias? ESY, ti to onomazeis auto? EINAI h
> den
> > > einai tromokratia? H apla epidi mporei na simfoneis me tis apopsis tou
> > > Theodoraki... dikeologis teties energies (opos kanoun merikoi simera kai
> me
> > > ta meloi tis 17N)?
> >
> > O Theodwrakis kala ekane, giati h xounta kathrghse to syntagma me
>
> Kai kala kanei kai o kathe psixasthenis pou skotoni athoous anthropous gia
> tin alfa bita logo! Kala sobarologis me auto pou eipes?!

Me tanks pou proebalan kanonia den katelaban tin eksousia? Dhladh tote
ti tous phrazei na brethoun kai oi idioi mprosta apo kanonia?

>
> Diladi kala ekane kai h 17N epidi eixe kai ekini tous logous tis?

H 17N epetethei enwos gimokratikou politeymatos, opou o politis bgazei
tous bouleytes kai aytoi kybernoun. an loipon eixan apopseis den eixan
paran na phsoun tous polites na psifisoun 17N kai na teleiwnei h
ypothesh. Tis bombes ti tis hthelan?

>
> > tanks, kai apetrepse thn eklogh kata pasa pithanothta ths enwshs
> > kentrou, kai tou andrea.
>
> Nomiza oti eipes oti den eisai mantis! Tora gnorizeis kai ta eklogika
> apotelesmata.... h apla epanalambaneis tis apopsis tin tromokraton?
>

Allo ena apospasma apo ta thlegrafhmata tou Talbot:

"Political Conditions:

Because of the foregoing economic conditions, internal divisions, and
lack of public confidence, the Stefanopoulos Government cannot long
survive--certainly not for more than a few months. If elections were
held today, the Center Union would get perhaps 60% of the popular
vote, ERE no more than 30%, and the "traitors" (Stefanopoulos
supporters) a bare 10%. The EDA vote would be negligible--maybe
5%--because the Center Union would win the support of all but a very
small Communist hard core within EDA."

Ka allo ena:

"I [Talbot] added that there was the further question of whether a
dictatorship could be effectively imposed in the face of the kind of
strikes, violence and general resistance measures with which Andreas
might react. Bitsios said that if a dictatorshiop were decided upon,
"Andreas would not be around." In response to my further question,
Bitsios said that for the present the loyalty of the army could be
relied upon to support a temporary dictatorship, but a few years hence
"it might be too late."

kai epishs ligo prin tis ekloges pou pote den eginan:

"11. As you know, King and Kanellopoulos have told me Greece "will
not" be delivered to Andreas Papandreou. Nonetheless, we must consider
this possibility if we are to oppose dictatorship."

O talbot eixe krish kai gi ayto oi USA ekana panw katw oti tous elege.
O antras ap oti fainetai elege tis idies malakies tote opws kai to
1981. Oso to ekane to 1981 allo toso tha to ekane kai tote. Kai ap oti
fainetai ayto htan fanero (h faflatologia dhladh kai tote opws kai to
81).

> To oti o G. Papandreou eixe sinantisi me tous
> Amerikanous kai tous zitise SIGNOMI gia auta pou elege o Andreas? To oti
> ligo prin tis 21 Apriliou SIMFONOUSE apolita me ton Andrea:
>
> "Athens, April 13, 1967, 2300Z
> EK leader asserted that King had made major blunder by giving mandate to
> Kanellopoulos and that he has now ceased to be King of all Hellenes. "He is
> now King of ERE," and must suffer fate of any party leader. Papandreou made
> repeatedly clear that, if Parliament is dissolved and country is led to
> elections by ERE government, it will no longer be just Andreas, but all of
> EK including himself who will be conducting anti-monarchical campaign. Elder
> Papandreou also warned that if dictatorship occurs, he will wage CIVIL WAR.
> "
>

Nai ekane empristikes dhlwseis KAKWS fysika. Alla mhn ksexnas oti o
basilias etoimaze praksikopima (xwris yperbolh, des o Talbot
anafairetai se "dictatorship").

> Diladi an den kerdize h EK h apla an h kainourgia kibernisi htan
> "diktatoria" (simfana panta me tis apopsis ton Papandreou) tha kirize
> EMFILIO POLEMO.
>

Den eipe ayto... Eipe oti an katargousan tis ekloges me praksikopima,
aytos tha ekane emfylio.

> Eixes lipon politikous na milane gia EMFILIO POLEMO kai omos tha'theles tous
> stratiotikous na katsoun e3o apo tin ipothesi?!
>
> > Kai gia ayto otan h epitropi "303" sto state
> > department (?) synedriase kai eksetase to endexomeno na dothoun
> > xrhmata se pio hpeia stoixeia ths EK wste an telike eklegei,
> > toulaxiston o antreas na mhn epikrathsei, h 303 to aperipse. Gia na
> > mhn emfanistei oti h amerikh anaktwnetai sti ekloges ths Ellada, kai
> > epishs giati den thewrouse ton antrea pragmatiko kindyno.
>
> As to diabasoun auto oi ilithioi pou nomizoun oti oi Amerikanoi epebalan tin
> "xounta".
>
> > En telei apo
> > ta arxeia ayta fainetai oti o basilias etoimazotan gia praksikopima,
> > alla ton prolaban oi syntagmatarxes pou ekanan diko tous! Gia ton idio
>
> Ti "praksikopima"?! BASILIAS itan! Tha epebale STRATIOTIKO NOMO (opos ekane
> kai h Epanastasi) gia na apofigi tin aimatoxisia.
>

Oxi lathos. Praksikopima kanonikotato etoimazotan na kanei. Den ta
leei o Papandreou, ta leei o Talbot. Ektws kai an o teleytaios htan me
thn EK.

> > logo, dhladh gia na mhn eklegei h EK kai o antreas! Dhladh (kai ayto
> > twra to psiliastika) den epenebei o stratos epidh ton enoxlouse to
> > syntagma kai o basilias. Oxi! O stratos htan me to basilia mexri aytos
> > na prospathsei na riksei th xounta. O stratos hthele aplws na
> > apotrepsei thn eklogh enws kentroaristerou kommatos. Ara h
> > syntagmatikh ektroph htan katharh! Kai apo pleyras prothesewn.
>
> Kala ti nomizeis oti einai o Stratos? Ena atoma h monolithos? H ierarxia tou
> stratou (kathos kai merikoi alloi se xamiloteres thesis) htan uper tou
> basilia kai kata kathe ti pou o idios den ipostirize. Asfalos kai
> "kentroous" eixe, kathos kai "aristerous" kai "de3ious". H pliopsifia pantos
> ipostirize tin Epanastasi kai gi'auto to logo apetixe o basilias.
>

H pleipsifia ypakjou se diatages. Opws symbenei synhthos se ena
strato.

> > Ara ti se enoxlei pou o Theodwrakis hthele na riksei th xounta? Kai gw
> > na hmoun to idio tha hthela.
>
> H "xounta" den dolofonise kanenan. Oute tromokratouse athoous polites. O
> Theodorakis kai alloi "politikoi" (opos kai h 17N) den eixan tetio problima.
>

Eee? Poisoi skotwthikan sta gegonota tou polytexneiou kai synafh?

> Kai euxaristo 3ana pou les oti den exeis problima me tin dolofonia Ellinon
> (malista tha eixes kai simetoxi)!
>
> > > Bres mou *ENAN* politiko pou filakistike xoris na ginei kapia diki stin
> opia
> > > krithike ENOXOS. Auto apo mono tou ta leei ola. Kai an thes na baleis
> tous
> > > tromokrates stin idia katigoria me tous "dimokrates politikous"...
> ase... ti
> > > thes na po parapano?
> >
> > Plaka mou kaneis. Gia des sta idia thlegrafhmata, pws eixan xwrisei
> > tous politikous kratoumenous se typou A,B kai C! Analoga me to poso
> > epikyndhnoys toys thewrousan... Dhladh h aneksarthth dikaiosynh
> > kollage tis etiketes a, b ka c? Hthela na hksera, prgmatika
> > ethelotyfleis?
>
> Milas tora gia epiboli STRATIOTIKOU NOMOU amesos meta tis 21 Apriliou. Kai
> asfalos, otan exeis "politikous" pou odigousan tin xora ste kainourgio
> emfilio (opos oi idioi diakiri3an)... tote dikeologite h PROSORINI *KRATISI*
> tous (kathos afethikan eleutheroi osi den profilakistikan gia diki).
>

Olo dikaiologies eisai.

> > > Poses fores tha milisoume gia tis ekloges? Eipame, 2 dimospifismata kai
> > > programatismanes ekloges. As apantisis eki pou eixe prosthesi
> perisotera.
> > > Oso gia tin "antipoliteusi", ti sxesi eixe prin, meta, h simera me tin
> > > diakibernisi tis xoras?
> >
> > E twra bre ti na sou pw? Ama den katalabaineis to thesmiko rolo ths
> > anitpoiliteyshs sth dimokratia, tote egw papw paso...
>
> Olo "thesmikous" rolous exei auti h "dimokratia"!! PRAKTIKOUS den exei
> katholou?!

Den mporei na exei praktikous and den exei thesmikous.

>
> > > San PIA? Dose ENA istoriko paradigma. Na topothetis bombes? Na kaneis
> > > apopires dolofonias? Pia "politika apixirimata" poinikopiithikan? To
> mono
> > > pou mporeis na peis einai oti otan eixe efarmosti stratiotikos nomos
> (amesos
> > > meta tin Epanastasi) apogoreuontan h sigkentrosi enos sigkekrimenou
> arithmou
> > > atomon se idiotiki katikia. O monos pou filakistike (kai afethike
> grigora
> > > eleutheros) htan o proin prothipourgos Kanellopoulos. Kai asfalos, o
> > > stratiotikos nomos katargithike poli prin to 1973.
> >
> > Sou synisto na diabaseis ta arxeia pou sou ypedeiksa. Diabase gia tous
> > A,B kai C typous kratoumenwn. Kai ayto htan mono h arxh. Meta ebgazan
> > kai tanks gia na katapnhgoun tromokrates ...foithtes... Alla as mhn
> > pame ekei.
>
> Dose istorika ntokoumenta pou ipostirisoun auto pou les gia ta "tanks".
> Psemata einai OLA. Oso gia tous KRATOUMENOUS, auto htan PROSORINO otan
> efarmostike STRATIOTIKOS NOMOS gia apofigi EMFILIOU POLEMOU. Kanenas den
> filakistike xoris diki stin opia krithike enoxos apo tin ane3artiti
> dikeosini.
>

Pio einai psema, oti phge tanks kai erikse tin pylh tou polytecxneiou?

> Simera se OLES tis dimokraties iparxi kai epitrepete dia nomou h PROSORINI
> KRATISI.
>
> > > Giati den e3igis prota ti einai mia "klassiki" akrode3ia, xounta, h
> > > diktatoria. Xrisimopiis olous autous tous orous les kai einai
> enalaktikoi (h
> > > les kai armozoun sto politeuma)!
>
> No comment?
>

Nai. Exei shmasia o akribhs orismos. As mhnoume loipon ston ellhniko
oro diktatoria gia na teleiwnoume.

> > > Ena-ena den mporouses na apantisis opos ta parousiasa?
> > >
> > > Ep! Pidikses apo to 1967 (ton ethniko kindino gia ton opio milousa) kai
> > > eftases sto 1974! 3ana, poses fores xriazete na epanalambano kati? H
> > > Epanastasi eixe paradosi tin e3ousia tis xoras ton Oktombrio tou 1973
> stin
> > > kibernisi Markezini. Ti sxesi exei lipon to Kypriako me tin 21 Apriliou
> > > 1967?
> > >
> > > To opio KAMIA sxesi den eixe me tin Epanastasi. An thes na sizitisis to
> > > remali ton Makario, kanto toulaxiston se mia alli sizitisi (pou den
> > > sxetizete me tin Epanastasi).
> >
> > Gia phgaine sto
> http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/cyprus/cyprus_history_the_greek_coup_and_the
> _turkish_invasion.html.
> > Ekei leei oti h "xounta" tou iwannidi xrhmatodotouse thn EOKA B gia na
> > riksei to Makario, opws telika kai ekane. Alhtheia den to hkseres
> > ayto?
>
> Ti sxesi exoun oi pra3eis opiondipote stratiotikon to 1974 me tin Epanastasi
> h opia paredose tin e3ousia ton Oktombrio tou 1973? Thes na milisis gia tin
> kibernisi Gkiziki? Kanto se alli sizitisi, edo milame gia to ergo tis
> Epanastasis!

To ena fernei to allo. O iwannidhs den htan arxika stin klika
papadopoulou? An den eixe apodynamwsei tous thesmous (akoma
perissotero) o papadopoulos, o iwannidis tha eixe thn eykairia na
ginei proedros? Apo eswterikes diergasies ths diktatorias den
proekypsan ola ayta?

>
> > > H "klassiki kybernish" tou Karamanli, ton Augousto tou 1974, den sikose
> ena
> > > daxtiko kathos oi tourkoi katelaban to 35% tis Kyprou. H Kypros xathike
> apo
> > > ton Karamanli, oxi apo tin "xounta".
>
> Xoris sxolio 3ana?

Edw ontws ouden sxolio kathososon den kserw ti htan dynato efoson h
eisbolh eixe hdei proxwrhsei.

Des to apospasma parapanw pou o mpitsios parakalaei ton amerikano
prebh na epemboun oi USA kai na kanoun da ton antrea. Alla egw den
amfisbitw oti oi kommounistes eixan anthellinikes idees. Alla epishs
yposthrizotan mono apo mia mikrh meiopsifia aytes oi idees. Oso kai
shmera dhladh...5-10% kai poly lew. Ayto einai kommounistikos
kindynos. Mhpws prepei na epembei kai shmera o stratos na sylabei thn
paparhga kai na thn xwsei se ena idiaiteros megalo kelli?

apopsi mou einai alla epibebaiwnetai eykwla. Kanei mia correlation
analysis gia to kata kefalin eisodima enanti politikis orimanshs ths
dimokratias. To apotelesma einai problepsimo nomizw.

> > > Tote giati efere proodos h Epanastasi? Ego kitazo to apotelesma, to opio
> > > einai thetiko. Kai o logou pou einai einai giati h diakibernisi egine me
> > > EMPIROGNOMONES kai autoi pou tous anethesan tin douleia eferan prosopiki
> > > EFTHINI. Pes kati antistixo gia tin simerini "dimokratia".
> >
> > Apanthsa parapanw. Proodo prosorinh mporei na yparksei. As poume ena
>
> Kai pios oikonomologos dinei logous (h exei meletisi to thema) gi'auto? Dose
> me kana ISBN gia na kano mia analisi kai ego.
>
> > aplo paradeigma (oxi teleios analogo alla endeiktiko). As poume oti
> > exeis skisei to xeri sou poly. Enas tropos gia na stamatiseis thn
> > aimoragia einai n baleis anisyptika, na to rapseis klp klp. Enas allos
> > tropos aplousteros einai na deseis sfyxta to mpratso sou, panw apo thn
> > plhgh. Loipon to aima tha to stamathseis eykwlotera etsi, alla kapoio
> > xroniko diastima argotera to xeri sou tha melaniasei, tha sapisei kai
> > tha pethaneis kai esy. Ayto to lew gia na katadeiksw oti mia prosorini
> > lysi pou fernei kapoia apotelesmata den einai aparaithtws h kalliterh.
>
> Kai kapioi gelousan me ton Papadopoulo pou milouse gia "gipsous"! :)
>

Koitakse isws na diafwneis. alla den se pairnei na koroideyeis giati
ksereis katabathos oti exw dikio.

> > > > Eks orismou! Polles fores,
> > > > polloi stratiwtikoi kanoun ayto to sfalma. Giati einai egkenes sti
> > > > nootropia tous. Theloun agnes kathares lyseis.
> > >
> > > Me posous stratiotikous exeis milisi?
> > >
> > Ah o pateras mou einai stratiwtikos, kai exw kai para pollous filous.
> > Epishs o pateras mou eixe sylhfthei apo th xounta.
>
> Kai oloi tous (h oi perisoteroi) theloun "agnes kathares lyseis"?! Se pio
> pedio maxis perimenoun na polemisoun gia na efarmosoun "agnes kathares
> lyseis"? Giati an einai na "kanoun ayto to sfalma" tote to strateuma einai
> gia klamata!

Den synnenwoumaste. Oi kathares lyseis anaferontai sthn ierarxia kai
aysthrh pyramida dioikhshs, sthn mh yparksh deksamenhs apopsewn kai
psifou. Mono oi paremfereis apopseis ginontai dektes. Posoi aristeroi
htan sto "symboulio ths epanastashs"?

>
> > > Pias "ekseliksis kai fysikis epiloghs"? Gia pia xora kai pio politeuma
> > > milame? Gia tin Epanastasi pou ebale xoriatopeda (me morfosi) se
> igatikes
> > > thesis, h tin "dimokratia" tou rousfetiou kai tou glipsimatos?
> >
> > To oti o politis den symperiferetai orima den anairei thn anagkaothta
> > ths dhmokratias. Aplws perimenoume kai eyelpistoume oti o politis tha
> > mathei...
>
> "Eueplistoume" akoma kai otan to sistima katastrefi tin xora kai tin odigi
> se emfilio polemo? Gia na exeis DIMOkratia, tin dinami xriazete na tin exoun
> oi POLITES, kai oxi h oligarxia. To oti den exoume mia dimokratia pou
> litourgi einai epidi den exoume tous SOSTOUS DIMOKRATIKOUS thesmous. Kamia
> sxesi me tin "orimotita" tou Ellina.
>

Ma shmera to blepeis mprosta sta matia sou oti o bouleyths pou
psifizoun einai aytos pou bgenei. An yparxei oligarxia einai epidh o
politis tous bgazei. Dhladh an o politis psifize me basi aksiokratika
kritiria kapoio bouleyth, yparxei kapoios pou tha stamatouse thn
eklogh tou?

> > > > Oi
> > > > politikoi epidh eklegontai apo tis taseis mias koinwnias einai pio
> > > > katallhloi, ennoiologika efoson o politis psifizei ayton pou ton
> > > > ekproswpei ideologika h ithika.
> > >
> > > Kai auto to blepeis esi simera stin Ellada (ase to ti ginotan 30 kai 37
> > > xronia protitera)?
> >
> > Oxi den einai dystyxws. Kathe allo. Gi ayto eimaste teleytaioi se ola
> > (sxedon).
>
> Epidi DEN exoume dimokratia. Sosta! An ontos eixame dimokratia, den tha
> eixes tous polites na ipostirizoun tin oligraxia gia prosopika ofelimata.
>

> > > > Kai oxi ayton pou tou dinei pio polles
> > > > gides.
> > >
> > > Aaa... tora milas gia tin "dimokratia" tis Elladas!
> >
> > To kserw!
>
> Afou simfonoume oti den exoume dimokratia stin Ellada (opos ipostirize h
> 17N), den bazoume kai emeis bombes mpas kai mpoume sto koinoboulio? To
> sigouro einai oti den tha eimaste "tromokrates"!
>

Bre dionysh giati mou bazeis pragmata sto stwm pou egw den eipa.
Symfwnhsa egw pote oti den exoume dhmokratia?

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1edf1f1b.03120...@posting.google.com...

> Sorry pou ksanakanw reset sto thread alla exei xathei pali h synoxh.
> Tha prospathsw na synopsisw to problhma opws to antilambanomai.
> Allwste osa exeoun ypothei einai parapanw sto thread.
>
> Nomizw loipon oti to problhma exei ws ekseis. Esy dexesai oles tis
> aitiaseis twn syntagmatarxwn,

Den dexome tipota parapano apo oti eipa. Prota ap'ola, den milame kan gia
"sintagmatarxes", giati den itan apoklistiki energia sintagmatarxon (kai o
Pattakos sintagmatarxis den itan). Deuteron, den eimai edo na parousiaso tis
apopsis kanenos ektos apo tis prosopikes mou (kai xrisimopiontas stixia apo
oudeteres piges).

> oti dhladh yphrxe kindynos gia th xwra

Oti ipirxe pragmatikos kindinos to elegan OLOI (Basilias, ERE, EK,
Amerikanoi, efimerides, ka). Auto den einai "aitiaseis twn syntagmatarxwn",
einai h alithia.

> kai ara h praksi tous na analaboun th diakybernhsh ths xwras paroti
> kati tetoio den problepotan apo to syntagma htan anagkaia.

Den problepotan apo ena sintagma pou stin ousia itan oxi mono
antidimokratiko, alla kai mi praktiko (opos olofanera apediksan oi
politikantides kai to palati). Kai asfalos, opos exo parousiasi, den itan h
proti fora pou o stratos pire thesi se themata politika...

> Eks ou kai
> h "Ethnoswthrios" epanastasi. Swsta?

Ethnosotiria giati esose tin Ellada apo kainourgio kiklo aimatoxisias.
Epanastasi giati erikse to katestimeno tis oligarxias kai efere dimokratiki
allagi.

> An omws anairesoume thn ypothesh oti yphrxe sobaros kai profanhs
> "ethnikos kindynos"

Thesi pou OLOI oi "paiktes" tis epoxis (tote) tha simfonousan (kathos oi
idioi tin ekfrasane). Pos lipon mporeis esi simera na "anairesis" kati pou
kanenas den amfisbitise (tolaxiston tote me logia h simperifora)?

> tote h ekdoxh oti htan aplws mia diktatoria pou
> anterepse to syntagma kai periorise tis estw kai ateleis eleytheries
> twn politwn, yperixyei.

To oti anetrepse to katestimeno den to amfisbiti kaneis. To oti itan
"diktatoria" omos akoma den exeis apodiksi. Itan kratos dikeou kai stadiaka
efarmose to sintagma pou iperpsifistike apo ton lao (meta apo mia mikri
periodo stratiotikou nomou logo tou endexomenou kindinou).

> Ara htan ena paranomo politeyma. Swsta?

Tin paranomia tin eblepan OLOI sto PROIGOUMENO politeuma. Otan antikatastis
ena mi-dimokratiko politeuma, den epete oti kathieronis diktatoria. Kai
ontos h dikeosini tis Ellados ("metapoliteutika") exei krini oti htan ontos
kratos dikeou kai kathierose NOMIMO politeuma (kai to oti akoma efarmozonte
nomoi kai apofasis tis periodou einai safi apodi3i).

> Telika olh h diafora mas fainetai na kataligei se afto to aplo metro
> tou kindynou.

An einai ontos etsi, tote OLOI oi protagonistes tis periodou iperaspizoun
tis apopsis mou. Akoma kai an den simfonisoume sto "metro tou kindinou" (ara
kai tis anagkeotitas tis Epanastaseos), auto den leei tipota gia to
politeuma kai ton dimokratiko tou xaraktira.

[Dionysios Pilarinos]

"stardimi***" <jbo...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1edf1f1b.03120...@posting.google.com...

> > > Eipes oti ena politeyma prepei na to dei kaneis thn epoxh pou synebei
> > > kai na to krinei ws tetoio. Alla den exei simasia to prospernaw.
> >
> > Tis PRAKSEIS tou NAI, oxi omos to politeuma.
>
> symfwnoi. alla des parakatw pou anfisbiteis ton eayto sou.

Katholou.

> > > Den katalabenw... ksexases oti sou eipa 100 fwres oti politeyma pou
> > > den proekypse apo ekloges kai den pratei ekloges meta apo 4 xronia
> > > einai xounta. Teleia kai payla.
> >
> > Pou kai pios to leei auto? Idietera auto gia ta "4 xronia"! Kai pios
leei
> > oti ena antidimokratiko kathestos (an ontos einai etsi stin
pragmatikotita)
> > einai "xounta"?
>
> Ena kathestws pou epi 7 xronia den eprakse ekloges kai pou katelabe
> thn eksousia me tanks einai diktatoria.

Poses fores tha milisoume gia tis ekloges? Diabase ti eipe o Pattakos ston
Talbot mia ebdomada meta tin Epanastasi:

Athens, April 28, 1967, 2015Z
"...he commented on purposes of revolution, plans for constitution-writing,
current status of detainees, and intentions toward political prisoners. He
repeatedly referred to what has happened as "the revolution" and to present
GOG as "the revolutionary government." He exuded confidence that revolution
is irreversible fact, whether or not US finally accepts proffered hand of
friendship. With consolidation effected, he emphasized current task is to
look forward to running government and returning to constitutional rule."

Prothesi lipon tis Epanastasis itan i dimiourgia sintagmatos kai h epistrofi
se sintagmatiki diakibernisi. Pragma pou KATORTHOSAN ton Oktombrio you 1973.
Pou blepis lipon tin "diktatoria"? Oti katalithike h mi-dimokratika
eklegomeni bouli? Oti telika edioksan ton mi-eklegomeno basilia (me
dimopsifisma)? Oti antikatestisan to sintagma tis xoras (me dimopsifisma)?

> > Giati einai "allo thema"? Proigoumenes energies tou stratou stin
> > diakibernisi tis xoras simera giortazonte epidi akribos eixan "kalo"
> > apotelesma (kalo toulaxiston gia tin oligarxia pou kiberna simera).
>
> Monos sou to paradexthikes oti einai allo thema. koita ligo pio panw
> ekie pou les allo to politeyma kai allo oi PRAKSEIS. Stamata na
> diafwneis mono gia ti diafwnia.

To POLITEUMA itan DIMOKRATIKO. Esi eisai pou diafonis me tin apopsi auti.
Esi episis parousiases tin (opidipote) anami3i tou stratou sti diakibernisi
tis xoras san mia "diktatoria". Einai telios ipokritiko na giortazoune (esi
kai oi politikantides) merikes energies tou stratou (otan o stoxos itan o
basilias kai kibernisis pou ton ipostirizan), kai na katakrinete tin energia
tou 1967 (epidi profanos o stoxos itan kai oi politikantides)!

Telika pia einai h thesi sou sto thema?

> > Ma o Papadopoulos den eixe "klika"! Kai eki akribos estiazete h
sizitisi.
> > Otan ena sistima einai diabromeno, tote xriazete allagi apo to ena
stixio
> > tis Ellinikis koinonias pou theoritika den prepei na aniki se kamia
"klika"
> > (ton Strato - den tha mpo sto thema tis ekklisias).
>
> Kaneis den dexthke oti o stratos exei mataksy alwn rolo antikeimenikou
> parathrith tou politikou gignesthe.

Pios den to dexete? Giortazoume EPISIMA san kratos simera (NAI h oxi) ton
rolo pou epe3e o Stratos kata tou Othona h iper tou Benizelou? Pios einai
simera o "antikimenikos paratiritis" stin pseudo-dimokratia tis oligarxias?
H "antipoliteusi"? Sobarologoume?!

> Kathe allo, mono antikeimenikos
> den einai. Dhladh an oi tou ASPIDA ekanan praksikopima esy tha hsoun
> mazi tous? Tha tous thewrouses oti einai antikeimenikoi krites? Alla
> fysika oi "alloi" ths "Ellhnorthodoksias" einai oi kaloi krites...

To oti APETIXAN leei erketa gia to pious antiprosopousan kai ti ipostiri3i
eixan. Profanos esi exeis problima me tin anami3i tou stratou se themata
politika, alla kanena problima me tin anami3i poltikon se themata
stratiotika! Anti na exoume e3iokratia (toulaxiston sto epipedo pou
xriazete) exoume tous politikous na ipostirizoun tis marionetes tous sto
strateuma (akoma kai simera me ton diorismo tis ierarxias). To oti h
epanastasi EPETIXE xoris tin amesi ipostiri3i tis ierarxias... leei ti
apixisi eixe sto lao, tous stratiotikous, kai tous strateusimous.

> > Ma giati na tin aferesis? Tin e3ousia tin PARADOSE *ETHELONTIKA* se
poltiki
> > kibernisi gia tin die3agogi eklogon. Auto kai mono leei polla gia to
> > politeuma auto.
>
> Edw ypekfeygeis. Egw den rwthsa ayto, egw rwthsa pios thesmikos
> mhxanismos yphrxe afaireshs ths eksousias apo thn klika.

To SYNTAGMA (tou 1968) pou iperpsifistike apo ton Elliniko lao! Kai
eipame... arketa me tous "thessmikous" kai as milame gia PRAKTIKOUS.
Paredose tin e3ousia ethelontika NAI h oxi?

> Peran toy
> eaytou ths. aplws gia na katadhksw oti sygkentrwne apolyth dynamh kai
> ara htan diktatoria.

H kibernisi DEN eixe apoliti dinami. H Ellada eixe sintagma, nomous, kai
ane3artiti dikeosini, kai h kibernisi den itan "iperano" auton. Otan
eukairiso kai an thes, mporo na parousiaso arketa thema sta opia h dikeosini
ekrine KATA tis kibernisis (apofasis StE, ka).

> > > Synepws mia omada h klika pou
> > > exei tin eksousia kai mono o eaytos ths mporei na thn afairesei apo
> > > ton eayto ths, ayto den shmainei sygkentrwsh apolyths dynamhs sthn
> > > omada ayth?
> >
> > Auto pou les armozei apolita stin oligarxia pou kiberna tin Ellada
> > "dimokratika" simera.
>
> Pali ypekfeygeis.

Pou to blepeis auto? Sigrine tin simerini katastasi me ekini pou ipirxe prin
to 1967. Eki pou eixame basilia me sintagmatiko rolo sti diakibernisi tis
xoras (kai pragmatikos "antikimenikos paratiritis"), simera exoume "proedro
tis dimokratias" pou eklegete apo tous politikantides! Einai san na diorizo
ego ton paratiriti h to afentiko mou! Kai mias pou profanos diafonis, pos
mporo ego h o laos na afairesoume tin apoliti dinami pou exoun ta megala
kommata (oxi "theoritika", alla PRAKTIKA).

> > > Den to apofeygw, apanthsa legontas oti allo 1900 kai allo 1970.
> >
> > Auti den einai dikeologia! To episimo kratos (SIMERA) anagnorizei kai
> > giortazei tin anami3i ton enopleon dinameon sta politika themata (tou
> > parelthontos).
>
> Kai kala kanei. allo o rolos tou stratou otan h xwra htan se fash
> ethnogenneshs

Pia "ethnogenesi"? Milame gia periodous pou h Ellada eixe politeuma kai
sintagma! Auta pou parousiazis einai dikeologies kai tin ipokrisia tis
thesis sou.

> kai allo to 1970 otan or rolos tou stratou htan aytos
> pou problepotan apo to syntagma ths basileyomenhs koinobouleytikhs
> dhmokratias.

Kai ti rolo edine (sto strato) to sintagma pou katelise o Benizelos
EPANELIMENA? Milame gia energies tou stratou pou itan ANTITHETES me autes
pou problepontan apo ta sintagmata tis periodou (se KATHE periptosi). Opote
sou meni na e3igisis tin ipokrisia.

> An den tous arese to syntagma mporouse h anathewrhsh na
> ginei meros ths politikhs atzentas enws kommatos kai me ekloges o laos
> na apofasisei anathewrhsh.

Pragma pou mporouse na kanei kai o Benizelos. Alla den eixe problima na
kanei merika pra3ikopimata! To oti energise anti-sintagmatika den sxoliazete
simera. Giati arage?

> Allwste panw katw h EK eixe tetoia atzenta.

H EK energouse antisintagmatika! Kai auto akribos prokalese tin "apostasia",
tipota allo. Otan h kibernisi stekete empodio stin dikeosini (stin ipothesi
ASPIDA) pos to krinis esi auto?

> O stratos den eixe kamia douleia peran ths fylakshs twn synorwn.

Piges stratiotis? Ti orkistikes na iperaspisis, tin Patrida h ta sinora?

> > Akoma kai gia tin periodo tou 1970 (kai sigkekrimena to 1973)
> > to kibernon komma (PASOK) anagnorizei kai iperaspizei to "kimina tou
> > Nautikou" kata tis nomimis kai diethnos anagnorizmenis tote kibernisis
> > (http://www.pasok.gr/gr/afieromata/politexnio/3.html). Ti leme tora!?
>
> Nai ti leme twra? An apodextoume oti h diktatoria htan paranomh tote,
> to kinhma tou naytikou pou apeylepe sthn epanafora ths nomimotitas
> htan kathola nomimo.

Kala, sobarologis? Eixe ena plio tou stolou to dikeoma (xoris diatagi apo
kamia kibernisi) na automolisi? Sto strato dexese diatages tis opies o
kathenas mporei na krini an einai nomimes h mi (px. otan arxise h epanastasi
o kathe stratiotikos pire thesi h otan ekane o basilias to diko tou kinima).
Allo auto lipon kai allo o kathe stratiotikos autoboulos na kanei oti theli.

> Opws fanhke kai ligo argotera h xounta eixe thn
> yposthriksh mono tou 1% tou laou opws fanhke apo tis psifous ths epen.
> Synepws pios htan paranomos?

Ti sxesi exei h EPEN (se ekloges meta to 1974) me ti ipostiri3i tou laou
(tin periodo 67-73)? Eides ton Papadopoulo na bgazei logous se platies? Ton
eides stin dimosia tileorasi na iperaspizi to ergo tis epanastasis? H apla
eixes monopolio sta MME kata tis "xountas" me propagandismous gia to
politexnio kai tin Kupro? Auti einai h "dimokratia" pou exoume stin Ellada?

> > An
> > simfonis me tin arxi oti oi enoples dinamis exoun dikeoma kai kathikon
na
> > pernoun thesi se politika themata (kai na rixnoun h na sximatizoun
> > kibernisis), tote den mporis na apokalesis tin Ethnosotira Epanastasi
oute
> > paranomi oute "xounta".
> >

> > Simera tis energies autes to episimo kratos den tis apokali
> > "antidimokratikes". Etsi gia na gnorizoume kai ti lene ta kommatoskula.
>
> De nomizw, iswn na mhlame gia allo pragma. O Benizelos tygxanh genikhs
> anagnwrishs, opws kai peripou o Metaksas.

Kala tora, tha mou pesoun ta malia! Ti sxesi exei o Meta3as me ton Benizelo?
O Baslias anethese ston Meta3a tin diakibernisi tis xoras, den ekane
anti-sintagmatiko PRAKSIKOPIMA opos o Benizelos! Kai pote akouses teleutaia
fora tin onomasia dimosiou ergou h xorou se "Meta3a" (kai sigrine to me ton
Benizelo).

> Kai polloi alloi. Alla ws
> synhthws antifaskeis. Ligo pio prin eipes oti ta "kommatoskyla"
> giortazoun tous diktatores (Venizelos klp).

Bres enan politikanti kommatokylo pou leei oti o Benizelos itan diktaktoras!
Eipa oti giortazoun (antisintagmatikes) energies tou stratou sti
diakibernisi tis xoras.

> Twra tous brhseis epidei
> ypoththetai oti tous apokaloun antidhmokrates? Dhladh tha apofasiseis
> epitelous?

Apokaloun ton Benizelo "dimokrati", ton Meta3a "fasista", kai ton
Papadopoulo "xountiko" h "diktaktora"! O protos kai o teleuteos eginan
igetes tis xoras me enrgies tou stratou. O Meta3as brethike stin thesi tou
prothipourgou me epofasi tou Basilia. Tora e3igise tin ipokrisia.

> > Pou eides "empedomenes dhmokraties" to 1970 stin Europi? Asfalos tha
> > anaferese MONO stin ditiki, sosta? Kai asfalos aferis apo autin tin
> > Portogalia kai tin Ispania, etsi?
>
> Prepei kapote nas stamathsoume na xrhsimopoioume ws dikeologia oti
> afou einai ena dyo alloi mazi mas ston pato, ara entaksei eimaste. Kai

SOBAROLOGIS? Pios xrisimopiise dikeologies? Esi o idios den milises gia
"empedomenes dhmokraties" kai ta3idia sto feggari... san dikeologia gia ton
logo pou itan anekti h anami3i tou stratou to 1900 alla oxi to 1970???

> oi alloi (p.x. ispania) katalabenoun oti o patos den einai kalos kai
> payoun na mas kanoun parea. Twra seira exoun oi anatolikes xwres. Se
> liga xroinia kai aytes tha arxisoun na mas pernane! Xwris kammia
> amfibolia.

Eftixos pou to blepeis auto! To 1973 h Ellada itan MPROSTA apo OLES autes
tis xores. As einai kala oi politikantides pou pragmatika exoun kanei tin
Ellada mpanania!

> > Oikonomika eimastan KALITERA (se sigrisi me tous allous Europeous)
apo'oti
> > SIMERA! Oso gia
> > "politismo"... entaksi... brikes to ena thema pou praktika den mporeis
na
> > metrisis! Ti thes na sou po? Posa biblia, diskous, kai tainies ebgales h
> > Ellada tote kai na tis sigrinoume me ta simerina noumera?
>
> Den anaferwmoun sthn kallitexnikh ekdoxh, xwris na thnypothmw.
> Anaferwmoun sthn politikh koultoura, sto sygkekrimeno paradeigma.

Diladi se tipota spoudeo. Epitelous brethike ena pragma pou den ekane kala h
epanastasi!!

> > Pia "tourkiki xounta" antegrapse? Gia dose istorika paradigmata.
>
> Eyxaristws. Apokoma apo ta legomena tou patakou kata ton Talbot:
>
> "282. Telegram From the Embassy in Greece to the Department of
> State/1/
>
> Athens, April 28, 1967, 2015Z.
> ....
> 5. We wasted little time on military aspects of takeover. As to ways
> in which his group will move to next phase of governmental operations,
> he [patakos] had studied problems Ayub and Turkish military leaders
> had faced in managing government after their military takeovers, and
> would draw on their experience while adding essentially Greek
> approaches. With confidence born of one week's experience, he felt
> sure new GOG could operate Greece's official establishment much more
> effectively than had its predecessors."

Kai pou apo ta parapano blepeis oti "antegrapse" tin "Tourkiki xounta"? Thes
na sou metafraso to "studied problems..." "....would draw on their
experience" se themata pou sxetizonte me "managing government after their
military takeovers"?

> > Den tin apebale! H Ellada poli sosta APOXORISE apo enan anthelliniko
> > organismo. Autos o idios organismos eixe epibali stin "dimokratiki"
Ellada
> > (prin merika xronia?) tin apozimiosi Tourkon pou exasan tin periousia
tous
> > stin... Xalkidiki (meta tin Mikrasiatiki Katastrofi)! Kai ti akribos
egine
> > (ti sinepia eixe) h apoxorisi?
>
> Gia des to parakatw:
>
> "The European Commission of Human Rights produced in 1969 a massively
> documented report in which it found that in April 1967 there had been
> no emergency threatening the life of the nation which would have
> justified Greece derogating from the European Convention of Human
> Rights, and that there had indeed been torture and degrading treatment
> of the regime's opponents.

To "European Commission of Human Rights" pio dikeoma exei na pernei thesi se
ena politiko thema san to "emergency threatening the life of the nation"?
Episis, pos akribos e3akribose tin ipar3i "torture and degrading treatment"?
O Diethnes Erithros Stauros kai akoma kai to Amnesty International den eixan
tipota to "sobaro" na poune. To para3eno pantos einai oti akoma kai edo, den
milaei kanenas gia DOLOFONIES.

Gia tous politikous kratoumenous, tis dolofonies, ta basanistiria prin to
1967 ti eixe na pei autos o organismos? Etsi gia na 3eroume poso
"antikimenikos" einai.

> This was holly contested by the regime, but

To opio eixe ipograpsi simfonies me ton Diethni Erithro Stauro pou
e3akribone tetia themata.

> nonetheless in December 1969 the foreign minister, Panayiotis
> Pipinelis, withdrew Greece from the Council of Europe on the eve of a
> meeting of the Council of Ministers at which Greece would almost
> certainly have been expelled."

Opote eixa DIKEO otan eipa oti APOXORISAME, kai esi eixes ADIKO. To oti
merikoi lene oti "Greece would almost certainly have been expelled" einai to
idio me autous pou lene oti tha kerdize h EK to 1967... ante na apodiksis
kati pou den egine!

> From A Short History of Modern Greece, by Richard Clogg (Cambridge
> University Press, 1985)

Se tetia thema o Woodhouse einai kaliteros (an kai filo-EREtikos).

> > Den tis diekopse, alla tis eixe "pagosi" PROSORINA. H EOK zitouse tin
pliri
> > efarmogi tou sintagmatos (you 1968) kai ekloges (pragma pou tha
ektelouse o
> > Markezinis). Pou to problima? Kai ti akribos "kerdisame" me tin isodo
stin
> > EOK? H oikonomiki anapti3i PRIN tin isodo stin EOK htan KALITERI. Pou
eides
> > lipon to "rezili"? Oti kathe xrono eimastan proti ston katalogo
oikonomikis
> > paragogikotitas tou OECD?
>
> Me to na paksiwneis aytous sous opoious ginesai rezili den anaireis to
> reziliki. antityhtws ginesai pio poly rezili.

zx