> Itï¿½s not an awfully difficult thing to achieve. But it demands that we

>
> turn our backs on self-pity, division and intolerance, and see how we
>
> can make this country better. Our biggest asset, if we set our minds to
>
> it, will be the incomparable combination of Greek stubbornness and
>
> ingenuity.
>

Total and utter bullshit. Unadulterated, too!!!

Kickboxer The Destroyer

unread,

Feb 6, 2013, 5:01:29 AM2/6/13

to

> By Alexis Papachelas

Boy, Diamond!

Did you have to react to that posting with something other than laughter? As if it could threaten someone and was worthy of rebuking? And as if it was written by a reasonable person?

Diamond

unread,

Feb 6, 2013, 7:51:39 AM2/6/13

to

I was going to post a Ytube Video of Harry Klin,but I din't have the
time. Who are these Greek Academics,is it not strange that our expert
communicates with them in English? It is sad to observe the downward
mental condition of Tasso.

Gavrilos

unread,

Feb 6, 2013, 8:08:29 AM2/6/13

to

ADR pretended :
> Here it is.
>
> --------------
Πως λέγανε οι αρχαίοι `Έλληνες την μαλακία;
- Πεοταλάντωσις η δια της χειρός εξαναγκαζόμενη!!!!!!

--
hear hear

unread,

unread,

Feb 7, 2013, 12:17:45 PM2/7/13

to

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:10:27 PM UTC-8, Kickboxer The Destroyer wrote:
> > Thanks, I was in England and I'll have to repeat the treatement 3 more times

>
>

> I try to discourage people from sending the subliminal message to Mr. ADR that he is some kind of an authority as they do when they respond to his messages with a certain degree of seriousness, because that is exactly the kind of attention that his ego is seeking.

> But that's not news. It's been going on for quite a while. Things have been pretty slow in this newsgroup. I've been busier beating up anti-Greek trolls in soc.culture.israel.

Just face it dumbo...the only reason that there is any activity in this group is because I am posting something. The right wing morons here cannot string an opinion together.

Kickboxer The Destroyer

unread,

Feb 7, 2013, 12:27:11 PM2/7/13

to

> Just face it rambo...the only reason that there is any activity in this group is because I am posting something. The right wing morons here cannot string an opinion together.

And that's not very constructive, is it?

"Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one."
Republican Clint Eastwood

ADR

unread,

Feb 7, 2013, 3:38:53 PM2/7/13

to

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 9:27:11 AM UTC-8, Kickboxer The Destroyer wrote:
> > Just face it rambo...the only reason that there is any activity in this group is because I am posting something. The right wing morons here cannot string an opinion together.
>
>
>
> And that's not very constructive, is it?

Why complain? Were your comments constructive??? If you want constructive comments, act accordingly.

MacedoniaIsGreek

unread,

Feb 7, 2013, 7:44:45 PM2/7/13

to

On Wednesday, 6 February 2013 08:24:04 UTC+10:30, ADR wrote:
> Here it is.

> > Let’s see what these parameters mean for the Greek economy: a national >debt of 190% GDP which, under optimal conditions (and blessings from above) >would decline to 120% GDP by 2022; unemployment at 27% which is expected to >peak at 31-32% in 2014 and would only decline to 10% in 2027 (again, under >optimal conditions). At the same time, incomes (for those who have a job or >a pension) would decline (in real terms) by 60-70% by 2020 (as they have >already dropped by 50% on aggregate and inflation will decimate them even >further). I would expect that an average starting wage in Greece would >decline to about 250-300 Euros per month in real terms by 2015 and would >remain at the same levels until the middle of the next decade. >Any “development” after “touching bottom” would be at very low rates, at >about 2%, and it would not be accompanied by any significant increase in >employment (a no-jobs development). These are the prospects of Greece >within the Eurozone, memoranda or not. Thus, it is the retention of the >country within the Eurozone that is the main issue, not the memoranda.
>

Seems to be a one-sided analysis ADR. You have not investigated or examined the harsh economic alternatives of Hellenic republic "leaving the EU" zone. Can you please elaborate how your panacea of deserting the EU club would produce the silver bullet in reducing unemployment rates, expanding Gross Domestic Product (Economic growth), improving income and decreasing the external balance?

Economics 101 ADR! If Greece reverts back to the Drachma, referring to an extremely devalued drachma currency, initially! How do you foresee Hellenic republic paying back the loans distributed by EU(Euro currency) Banks that have a higher currency value and exchange rate? Please elaborate.

How would "your figures" compare with the 2020 EU zone statistics?

What about the social demoralization of regressing back to the threadbare drachma past?

> I really do not expect any incisive comments here, the intellectual capacity of most of the contributors here is minimal.

Once again ADR, you demonstrate an intellectual superiority complex - a common Hellenic trait. I call it Greek mans syndrome! As a life lesson, you can acquire knowledge from all segments of society - not just PhDs.

Have a nice one..

Kosta.

annokato

unread,

Feb 7, 2013, 9:14:24 PM2/7/13

to

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 7:44:45 PM UTC-5, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
> On Wednesday, 6 February 2013 08:24:04 UTC+10:30, ADR wrote: > Here it is. > > Let’s see what these parameters mean for the Greek economy: a national >debt of 190% GDP which, under optimal conditions (and blessings from above) >would decline to 120% GDP by 2022; unemployment at 27% which is expected to >peak at 31-32% in 2014 and would only decline to 10% in 2027 (again, under >optimal conditions). At the same time, incomes (for those who have a job or >a pension) would decline (in real terms) by 60-70% by 2020 (as they have >already dropped by 50% on aggregate and inflation will decimate them even >further). I would expect that an average starting wage in Greece would >decline to about 250-300 Euros per month in real terms by 2015 and would >remain at the same levels until the middle of the next decade. >Any “development” after “touching bottom” would be at very low rates, at >about 2%, and it would not be accompanied by any significant increase in >employment (a no-jobs development). These are the prospects of Greece >within the Eurozone, memoranda or not. Thus, it is the retention of the >country within the Eurozone that is the main issue, not the memoranda. > Seems to be a one-sided analysis ADR. You have not investigated or examined the harsh economic alternatives of Hellenic republic "leaving the EU" zone. Can you please elaborate how your panacea of deserting the EU club would produce the silver bullet in reducing unemployment rates, expanding Gross Domestic Product (Economic growth), improving income and decreasing the external balance? Economics 101 ADR! If Greece reverts back to the Drachma, referring to an extremely devalued drachma currency, initially! How do you foresee Hellenic republic paying back the loans distributed by EU(Euro currency) Banks that have a higher currency value and exchange rate? Please elaborate. How would "your figures" compare with the 2020 EU zone statistics? What about the social demoralization of regressing back to the threadbare drachma past? > I really do not expect any incisive comments here, the intellectual capacity of most of the contributors here is minimal. Once again ADR, you demonstrate an intellectual superiority complex - a common Hellenic trait. I call it Greek mans syndrome! As a life lesson, you can acquire knowledge from all segments of society - not just PhDs. Have a nice one.. Kosta.

You mean to tell us you are not aware of ADR's great plan?
It's easy, go back to the drachma and start printing to pay your bills.
Problem solved.
As far as debt to others, you simply don't pay. It's the way of the left.

Panayiotis

unread,

Feb 8, 2013, 2:47:58 AM2/8/13

to

"gogu" wrote in message news:5112eaa5$0$11997$6e1e...@read.cnntp.org...

? "Gavrilos" <or19...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:keuomv$kfd$1...@news.albasani.net...
> After serious thinking gogu wrote :
>> ? "Kickboxer The Destroyer" <kickbo...@gmail.com> ?????? ??? ??????
>> news:3197247b-d676-466c...@googlegroups.com...
>>>> You are an idiot and an iferiority complex suffering human trush.
>>>
>>> He called you and you answered.
>>>
>>> He won, you lost.
>>>
>>> So did we.
>> -----------------------
>>
>> I don't know what are you talking about (lost....win...), I was "out" for
>> 35 days for a serious health problem and I don't know what conventions
>> you have done.
>> Please explain.

> siderenios Gogu get well
---------------

Thanks, I was in England and I'll have to repeat the treatement 3 more times
for 21 days.
7 days "relief", 21 days inside.
So, what's the beaf?
Have you all decided not to answer to this jerk anymore or what?...

=======================================================
Gogu,
Perastika, get well, siderenios.

Panayiotis

gogu

unread,

Feb 8, 2013, 3:08:31 AM2/8/13

to

Ο "Panayiotis" <panayi...@hotmail.com> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:kf2ajv$3g3$1...@mouse.otenet.gr...

-------------

Thanks Panayotis!

Kickboxer The Destroyer

unread,

Feb 8, 2013, 6:47:09 AM2/8/13

unread,

Feb 8, 2013, 9:58:56 PM2/8/13

to or19...@gmail.com

On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:04:39 PM UTC-8, marciango wrote:

> Drachma didn't work for 180 years,that is why all of us here have
>
> left Greece to live in other countries, and you in your simplistic
>
> solution to a complex issue, an issue which is ignored time and time
>
> again by your imaginary Greek Academics Forum cohorts, and expect it
>
> to work this time. BTW send this post to your mythical friends at the
>
> forum.

Boy, was this worth a good laugh, or not? Man, you are a hoot. Even the term "idiot" is probably just too much for you. What does the drachma have to do with the economic development of Greece? Since when the currency determines if a country is going to be rich or poor? Monetary and fiscal policies are important tools for any government, but they are not the sine qua non of development. In this case, for Greece returning to the drachma would help with the liquidity trap that it is in and a restoration of the competitiveness of the economy. It is not a substitute of development. You do not even understand the basics.

Since you believe that you emigrated to the US because of the drachma, then I guess that the Germans who emigrated to the US (and were the largest ethnic group in the beginning of the 20th century) must have gone there because the Deutschmark failed them; for the Italians it would have been the lira, for the Irish the pund, for the Swedes the kronen and so on....are you bananas or what????

You have an inferiority complex 3 miles wide. Greece, since 1831 has performed much better than most European countries. Considering that the country emerged in 1831 as the most impoverished part of Europe fully destroyed after 10 years of vicious wars with large armies in a tiny area, it has managed to build a modern state and even expand (five-fold) over this period of time. Under the drachma, the average Greek achieved, in 1979, a purchasing power of 91% of that of a northern European. This is an absolutely great achievement.

So, stop mopping, stop the stupidities and get your brain to work a bit.

unread,

Feb 9, 2013, 12:51:11 PM2/9/13

to

I am merely reminding him of what he did to me when he was telling
everybody that I was being eaten alive by cancer and that I would die an
animal death (profiso versus the human Pethano in Greek.).

No, I will not sink to such depths as HE did when he thought I had cancer.

But you take this opportunity to attack ME as opposed to attacking HIM
for wishing for me to be eaten up alive by cancer and to die an animal
death.

What goes round comes round. And the chickens come home to roost. But
no, I am not celebrating his health misfortune merely trying to get him
to mend his ways.

BTW, I put back in below the relevant passages which you left out!
Hypocrite!
--
choro
*****

Here is what Gogu wrote...

> Thanks, I was in England and I'll have to repeat the treatement 3 more times
> for 21 days.
> 7 days "relief", 21 days inside.
> So, what's the beaf?
> Have you all decided not to answer to this jerk anymore or what?...

And here is what I wrote in reply to him...

choro

unread,

Feb 9, 2013, 12:54:53 PM2/9/13

to

It doesn't matter what sort of disease it is. The main thing is that you
are a right proper bastard and have not stopped thinking of me (AND
others I might just as well add) as an animal. I have no desire wishing
for your death. Merely for you to see the depths you sink to and quite
regularly too. --
choro
*****

ADR

unread,

Feb 10, 2013, 2:01:04 PM2/10/13

to

> home. Hereï¿½s Spiros Kapralos, a shipping company boss:

I think that we have established the fact that what most Greeks accept and what the reality is are two distinct, and most often, irreconcilable entities.

MacedoniaIsGreek

unread,

Feb 10, 2013, 8:06:40 PM2/10/13

to

>
> I have never stated that Greece would leave the EU. I have only discussed leaving the Eurozone.
> >Can you please elaborate how your panacea of deserting the EU club would produce the silver bullet

> Of course. I have done so many a time. Reverting to the national currency >is not a silver bullet. It is an essential step of exiting the crisis but not >the single step that needs to be taken for Greek development. I have referred >to many a time to essential weaknesses of the Greek economy (i.e., its >rudimentary capitalist infrastructure, very dispersed capital distribution, >non-existent methods for capital aggregation, etc,). Irestore the >competitiveness of the Greek economy as soon as possible and as fast as ?>possible by exiting the Euro.

>
> Very simply, within the Euro, Greece cannot devalue to regain >competitiveness. For example, between 2000-2009, Greek labor costs increased >by 29% while German labor costs at that time increased by only 9%. Within the >Euro, this had a devastating effect. German exports to Greece rose by 90% while Greek exports to Germany remained totally flat.

Thanks for the response ADR. Obviously there may be some quick wins and initial benefits implementing and regressing to the Drachma, but the resulting devaluation will also have obvious negative ramifications. A low currency exposes the Hellenic Republic to cheap infrastucture and asset valuations. How would you like to live in a "Chinese owned" Hellenic Republic?

>
> Furthermore, the Euro is exposing Greece to all the negatives of globalization without any of the benefits.

I believe the affects of globalisation in Greece are exclusive of the Euro currency. The Hellenic republic critically required to diversify its economy to remain competitive, regardless of what currency they utilise.

> Greece, not having any iconic brands or multinationals, is unable to draw any >benefits from globalization (which all accrue to Northern Europe); it >suffering from the negatives, having lost most manufacturing in textiles, >chemicals and light manufacturing (just to name a few).
>

Using demand and supply concepts in the weak labour market, deflation and major loss of employment, wouldnt that make it more attractive proposition for multinational to set up base in Greece? Manufacturers could produce high specification goods with lower employee costs based on low incomes (say 600-700 Euro per month) that many Hellenes would be happy to work for.

>
> To the degree that a new drachma would be devalued would depend on the course of the Greek economy following the change. Currency exchange rates are totally immaterial, what really counts is the total wealth, which is a notion that most of you find difficult to grasp.

Once again, I generally agree with your economic principles for a quick win. However localised total wealth means nothing when the average house is worth 10,000,000Drachma and a foreigner can purchase it for 5,000Euro - based on the currency de-valuation and current poor course of the Greek economy.

What about national security issues, how would you perceive Skopje or Turkey buying major infrastructure such as ports with a "peasant" currency?

> What threadbare drachma past is this? When was the last time you lived in >Greece. Greece utilized the drachma until 2002. In fact, Greece's gap with >northern Europe in terms of purchasing power was at its most narrow in 1979, >during the "threadbare" drachma period, when the average Greek had 91% of the >purchasing power of a northern European.

Only lived in Greece as a child, but remember how much my Australian $$ could buy in Greece in 1997. Many average Hellenes found it difficult to travel with their drachma exchange. Yes, I agree the standard of living was much higher! However it seemed even higher in 2004 when the young Hellenes were buying up material goods - all on credit!

> > Once again ADR, you demonstrate an intellectual superiority complex - a common Hellenic trait. I call it Greek mans syndrome! As a life lesson, you can acquire knowledge from all segments of society - not just PhDs.
>
> Yes, you can. I learned a lot of things; however, I did not comment here on what I can learn from the average Greek, but by the participants of this forum.

ADR, you are obviously an extremely intelligent person. However, you cannot display arrogance when you dont agree with other posters' analysis. There is always a degree of subjectivity when it comes to economic theory and solutions. Your theories are more structured and researched, but as Hellenes we all like to have an opinion!

All posters should refrain from insults, and enjoy the banter!

Kosta

ADR

unread,

Feb 10, 2013, 11:27:45 PM2/10/13

to

On Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:06:40 PM UTC-8, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
> >
>
> > I have never stated that Greece would leave the EU. I have only discussed leaving the Eurozone.
>
> > >Can you please elaborate how your panacea of deserting the EU club would produce the silver bullet
>
> > Of course. I have done so many a time. Reverting to the national currency >is not a silver bullet. It is an essential step of exiting the crisis but not >the single step that needs to be taken for Greek development. I have referred >to many a time to essential weaknesses of the Greek economy (i.e., its >rudimentary capitalist infrastructure, very dispersed capital distribution, >non-existent methods for capital aggregation, etc,). Irestore the >competitiveness of the Greek economy as soon as possible and as fast as ?>possible by exiting the Euro.
>
> >
>
> > Very simply, within the Euro, Greece cannot devalue to regain >competitiveness. For example, between 2000-2009, Greek labor costs increased >by 29% while German labor costs at that time increased by only 9%. Within the >Euro, this had a devastating effect. German exports to Greece rose by 90% while Greek exports to Germany remained totally flat.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the response ADR. Obviously there may be some quick wins and initial benefits implementing and regressing to the Drachma, but the resulting devaluation will also have obvious negative ramifications. A low currency exposes the Hellenic Republic to cheap infrastucture and asset valuations. How would you like to live in a "Chinese owned" Hellenic Republic?

As I posted before, there is no such thing as "low currency". This is a myth. A total myth. How is Japan particularly affected by the 1 Euro = 140 yen? This argument makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Again, currency exchange rates are totally immaterial to any argument as long as they represent economic realities.

I will give you an example: let's say that 1 new drachma is introduced at 1 euro. Let's also say that in exchange rates this currency is quickly devalued (originally) by 50%; thus, in the beginning you may have 1 new drachma = 0.5 Euros. So what? It would certainly make imports more expensive, but this is the whole idea. Importers would switch from western European goods to Asian ones, probably within 6 months or so. Local produce, which is now poorly utilized will find its way through the retail channel.

You seem to be worried that a devalued drachma will open the way to foreign ownership. I found this entertaining, considering that the currently the whole of the Greek public wealth is being sold for ridiculous low prices. And I mean the whole of Greece is for sale, by the order of the troika. So, honestly, I do not understand this argument. However, let's take your concerns seriously. Now, assuming the troika is being kicked out, for public wealth to be sold, you have to have a seller. If the Greek public decides not to sell every and single utility to any bidder, then there is no issue. But how about private property? Wouldn't a devalued drachma make Greek property easy to acquire by foreigners. What I would say is counter-intuitive but it is true. The short answer is "NO". Why? Because typical market mechanisms would operate. If Greek real estate is, let's say, undervalued and attracts a lot of buyers, prices would soon increase and likely increase dramatically, restoring balance and making a lot of Greeks wealthier in the process.

> > Furthermore, the Euro is exposing Greece to all the negatives of globalization without any of the benefits.

> I believe the affects of globalisation in Greece are exclusive of the Euro currency. The Hellenic republic critically required to diversify its economy to remain competitive, regardless of what currency they utilise.

I was not referring to this. Within the Eurozone, Greece has no choice but to follow the strongest economy. There is little doubt that the Euro pricing is driven mainly by the German economy. Thus, Germany's economy benefits for having a currency that corresponds to its economy and allows it to make real profits engaging in world-wide trade. Not for Greece. The Euro does not represent the Greek economy and it results in even overpricing Greek services. For example, Greece derived major income from shipping services but it has lost more and more business in the last decade because the Euro is overpriced. In fact, it has given an opening to Turkey to expand its shipping services and "eat the Greek lunch". Much the same is happening with tourism. If Greece's tourism was "unique", then it may have withstood the pressures of the Euro. It is not. Greece is competing with the rest of the Mediterranean world and here the Euro is a great burden. Greek tourism has been beaten down really badly.

>
> Using demand and supply concepts in the weak labour market, deflation and major loss of employment, wouldnt that make it more attractive proposition for multinational to set up base in Greece? Manufacturers could produce high specification goods with lower employee costs based on low incomes (say 600-700 Euro per month) that many Hellenes would be happy to work for.

The simple answer to this is "NO". First of all, Greek wages were in the 600-700 euro range before the crisis. Now, they are in the 400 euro range, moving towards 300, fast. Still, they are higher than those of Eastern European countries and much higher than those of India, Malaysia, China, Taiwan, etc. And how is desirable for Greece to go out searching for low wage investors? As soon as wages start rising in Greece, these investors will flee to other low cost destinations. This is not organic development and it is mostly a stupid way to pursue any kind of development.

>
>
> >
>
> > To the degree that a new drachma would be devalued would depend on the course of the Greek economy following the change. Currency exchange rates are totally immaterial, what really counts is the total wealth, which is a notion that most of you find difficult to grasp.
>
> Once again, I generally agree with your economic principles for a quick win. However localised total wealth means nothing when the average house is worth 10,000,000Drachma and a foreigner can purchase it for 5,000Euro - based on the currency de-valuation and current poor course of the Greek economy.

I think that I have answered this above but here we go again. Currently, real estate prices in Greece are rather expensive for European terms. So, for somebody to purchase a Greek house valued at 10 million new drachmas for 5,000 Euros, this would mean that the new drachma would have been devalued by 2000% which is clearly ridiculous. But let's go with that as well. As you know, the Italian lira was 1 Euro = 2500 Italian lirae. Did this make Italian houses cheaper for Germans to buy? Of course not. This is not a serious argument. The problem is what is happening to real values. In fact, real values would suffer more by the current process of "internal devaluation" than by a change in currency and "external devaluation".

> What about national security issues, how would you perceive Skopje or Turkey buying major infrastructure such as ports with a "peasant" currency?

They can buy them more easily now that the sale of state assets is under the troika, than under an independent Greek government. For Turkey to buy anything, it has to find a seller. It is a lot easier for Turkey to buy from the troika than from a strong and independent Greece.

> > What threadbare drachma past is this? When was the last time you lived in >Greece. Greece utilized the drachma until 2002. In fact, Greece's gap with >northern Europe in terms of purchasing power was at its most narrow in 1979, >during the "threadbare" drachma period, when the average Greek had 91% of the >purchasing power of a northern European.
>
>
>
> Only lived in Greece as a child, but remember how much my Australian $$ could buy in Greece in 1997. Many average Hellenes found it difficult to travel with their drachma exchange. Yes, I agree the standard of living was much higher! However it seemed even higher in 2004 when the young Hellenes were buying up material goods - all on credit!

Again, I keep telling you -and I would continue telling you- that exchange rates mean absolutely nothing. It is total wealth that matters. As I said, you need lots of yen to get an Australian dollar, but try to go and buy even a small apartment in Tokyo!! You will get a heart attack! And Japanese tourists can buy lots of things in Australia, even if they needs lots of yen to get a single Australian dollar. Guess what? What matters is how many yen they have, not the exchange rate. Get it???

So, let's have some real arguments, not fake ones.

> > > Once again ADR, you demonstrate an intellectual superiority complex - a common Hellenic trait. I call it Greek mans syndrome! As a life lesson, you can acquire knowledge from all segments of society - not just PhDs.

> > Yes, you can. I learned a lot of things; however, I did not comment here on what I can learn from the average Greek, but by the participants of this forum.
>
> ADR, you are obviously an extremely intelligent person. However, you cannot display arrogance when you dont agree with other posters' analysis. There is always a degree of subjectivity when it comes to economic theory and solutions. Your theories are more structured and researched, but as Hellenes we all like to have an opinion!

If you have been exposed to the continuous insults and moronic comments of the extreme right wing nuts that inhabit this forum, you would have thought otherwise

> All posters should refrain from insults, and enjoy the banter!

Good luck on that one!!

Nashton

unread,

Feb 11, 2013, 6:32:16 AM2/11/13

to

On 13-02-11 12:27 AM, ADR wrote:
> On Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:06:40 PM UTC-8, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
>>>
>>

Won't even bother addressing your concocted fantasies as they were
addressed more than once in the past and you either quit the the thread
or lied about what you said and in many instances weren't even sure of
what you stated.
What is sure is that in an eventual return to the drachma (which by all
indications will not happen, much to your chagrin, I'm sure), fiscal
discipline is a must for the country, something everyone seems to
acknowledge except for you, otherwise no other entity will accept the
drachma and any payment of debt will invariably be either in Euros or
the greenback, further decreasing money left over for social services
and internal obligations.

--
ADR on Greece's National Anthem :

"However, as our national hymn states, "fear rules the land"

ADR on the current fiscal crisis : "There is no evidence
whatsoever that Greece spent irresponsibly and that it did not manage
its debt."

ADR on the open letter of Greek academics on the economy.
Pissaridis, Nobel Prize laureate is amongst them.

"This letter, signed mostly by persons with appointments and strong
connections to Greek academia has been extensively panned in the
forums of Greek academics wild inaccuracies, obvious distortions and
absolute lack of solutions."

"There is not chance in hell that the government will get
access to a persons' account that has moved the his/her
money quite legally to Switzerland or any other European
bank"

The naive ADR on Swiss accounts.

"Of course, they will be great Greek patriots who will fight on -and
eventually win-. In the meantime, I will stay with some proud people,
the Irish (since I have a great emotional connection with the place
and dear memories) "

ADR taking another emotional tantrum, takin g his marbles and going home.

"Palestinian rockets killed only a few rats in Israel"

Another "lesson" on current events from ADR

"I am always right, I am never wrong and you can't deal with it"

ADR and is God like infallibility

"When there are commentaries in the Wall Street Journal calling for the
replacement of this ridiculous government, you know we have reached
the end of the road"

ADR and the credence he places on ...magazines concerning the rise or
fall of a govt.

"That's impossible. For the news of the fire to travel from Rome to
Actium and for the Nero to sail back to Rome it would take many more
days than the fire lasted. Nero would have arrived just to see
smoking ashes."

For ADR, Actium = Antium
Ti Lozanh, ti Kozanh.

"This totally laughable and it shows
that you are smoking something powerful.
Have you tried to install a
DSL line at home in Greece lately?"

ADR on broadband penetration in Greece.

"These radiation level are just within certain areas of the reactor.
Let's not overblow the whole thing. Provided that the plant is
finally secured and cleaned, this radiation level will decline quite
quickly (depending on the actual elements that provide the
radiation)."

ADR forgetting about the plutonium, offers his in depth
analysis of the nuclear reactor crisis in Japan.

"To think that Anastassios had anything to do with the manufacture of
medicines is a frightening thought.

A man of fathomless ignorance who uses it as knowledge to guide action
and is involved in pharmacy imparts to medication a sense of Russian
roulette that's worse than the fear of disease.

Be afraid.

A man for whom Actium is the same as Antium, inequalities are the same
as negative statements, thinks just as well that chloride is the same
as clorate and sulfide the same as sulfate. There never was a
sophist movement, ancient Greece and Rome had no lawyers, and science
is never concerned with proving negatives. Anything goes, folks.

A mind that dysfunctional in a relaxed history forum with not
deadlines or bosses must be even worse in the spheres of life with
strict obligations.

Bingo! Then one hears that such a man failed to meet his performance
goals at his work and got a bonus of exactly zero dollars last year.
And that shortly afterward his employer reconsidered Mr. Retzios'
business contribution in his 24 months of employment and felt he was
being robbed, and rightfully fired the goober's a.s.

How many times must that have happened to Anastassios,... and
counting?"

Someone pegging the fool ADR for who he really is.

Nashton

unread,

Feb 11, 2013, 6:35:23 AM2/11/13

to

On 13-02-10 9:06 PM, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
>
>>

>
> ADR, you are obviously an extremely intelligent person.

LOL!

> However, you cannot display arrogance when you dont agree

> with other posters' analysis. There is always a degree of

> subjectivity when it comes to economic theory and solutions. Your

> theories are more structured and researched, but as Hellenes we

> all like to have an opinion!

His theories structured and researched? How long have you been posting here?

>
> All posters should refrain from insults, and enjoy the banter!

No kidding.
Look up Dunning-Kruger.

> Kosta

mto...@gmail.com

unread,

Feb 11, 2013, 7:21:56 AM2/11/13

to

> ADR, you are obviously an extremely intelligent person. However, you cannot display arrogance when you dont agree with other posters' analysis. There is always a degree of subjectivity when it comes to economic theory and solutions. Your theories are more structured and researched, but as Hellenes we all like to have an opinion!

Kosta,

I think you need to re-examine your definition of 'intelligent' and possibly 'extremely' too, friend.

Ego, good English and ability to write lengthy answers should not qualify as intelligence, any more than charisma as true leadership.

How much closeness to Truth have you seen? Comprehension of others' views? Adjustment of own views when your views have been debunked? And let's not even get into things like honesty, consistency and integrity.

Formerly,
The Kickboxer.

unread,

Feb 11, 2013, 10:13:50 PM2/11/13

to

On Monday, February 11, 2013 6:03:02 PM UTC-5, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
> On Monday, 11 February 2013 22:51:56 UTC+10:30, mto...@gmail.com wrote: > > ADR, you are obviously an extremely intelligent person. However, you cannot display arrogance when you dont agree with other posters' analysis. There is always a degree of subjectivity when it comes to economic theory and solutions. Your theories are more structured and researched, but as Hellenes we all like to have an opinion! > Kosta, > I think you need to re-examine your definition of 'intelligent' and possibly 'extremely' too, friend. > Ego, good English and ability to write lengthy answers should not qualify as intelligence, any more than charisma as true leadership. > ex-Kickboxer, I subscribed to this group in 1991 and alt.news.macedonia. ADR (if it is the same poster) contributed detailed analysis and historical factual reasoning around the Macedonia issue. Back then, debate was a more civilised and there wasnt a hatred amongst Hellenic posters. Fast forward 15 years, level of insults and debate brings a shock, a bit like the Hellenic economy from then to now! ADR, holding a PhD obviously does have a high level of intelligence - This can be ascertained from his blogs, even if we dont agree with his analysis and theory! > How much closeness to Truth have you seen? Comprehension of others' views? Adjustment of own views when your views have been debunked? And let's not even get into things like honesty, consistency and integrity. > Closness to Truth? Once again, economic theories are never black and white! There is always a contradiction in trying to achieve a specific macro-economic objective. If you move towards full employment, price stability and inflation will be impacted (opposite of Greeces current situation). That is the beauty of being able to debate in a democratic forum. ADR's theories have been debunked on various occassions - as you have stated, however there may be some advantageous outcome with his "left wing" theories. I was dead against the option of regressing and leaving the Euro currency, but there may be some initial benefits that ADR has pointed out. Regardless, the likelihood of this ever happening in zero or minimal. ADR is entitled to his opinion! > Formerly, > > The Kickboxer. Have a nice one, and keep up the factual posts! Kosta

You might be right, he may have some intelligence but he never discusses Biology so how are we to know? Looking to a Biologist for economic advice is akin to asking an Economist about Biology. Furthermore ADR is an academic which makes him left leaning and what we know about the left is that once they latch onto a belief no amount of reason or common sense can change their mind.
One such belief is that, while in debt, spending more money will get you out of debt.

Nashton

unread,

Feb 11, 2013, 10:14:29 PM2/11/13

to

On 13-02-11 7:03 PM, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
> On Monday, 11 February 2013 22:51:56 UTC+10:30, mto...@gmail.com wrote:

> Closness to Truth? Once again, economic theories are never black and white!

Oh pulease. We're not talking about an individual who is knowledgeable
or that even has a minimum comprehension of economic theory.

We're talking about an individual who goes around calling people idiots
and morons because they don't agree with him. An individual that runs
away from discussions and has hijacked this group with his insistence
that only he can be correct and everyone else is simple too stupid to
even begin to understand his "genius,"

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you are yet another one of his socks...

<snip>

annokato

unread,

Feb 11, 2013, 10:44:23 PM2/11/13

to

On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 4:54:04 PM UTC-5, ADR wrote:
> Here it is. -------------- I will sign your letter as it stands. I think that it is a honest statement of worry about the direction of the country. Let me point out, however, that it targets two parties that oppose to the “memoranda of understanding” as they stand, but which support the process of “internal devaluation” and the retention of Greece within the Eurozone. In fact, the leaders of both parties have made “fiery” speeches accusing the government of “taking Greece to the drachma” with its policies. The central committee of SYRIZA has just announced that it would seek “renegotiation” of the terms of the memoranda with the troika. This is the same policy as that of ND prior to the elections of 2012. It is important for all of us to understand that the memoranda are not the problem. In fact, memoranda or not, any Greek government that wished to remain within the Eurozone and had a single lender to cover deficits (the European stability pact) would have instituted, by itself a process of internal devaluation and crashing austerity (Spain is a clear example). Because of the Euro and the decision of international lenders not to lend, Greece is caught in a crisis of liquidity (there is simply not enough money). Thus, it is really immaterial if we have memoranda with the troika or not; as long as we remain within the Eurozone and have no access to open market lending , the fiscal parameters are not going to change. The existence of the memoranda simply codify this situation. Let’s see what these parameters mean for the Greek economy: a national debt of 190% GDP which, under optimal conditions (and blessings from above) would decline to 120% GDP by 2022; unemployment at 27% which is expected to peak at 31-32% in 2014 and would only decline to 10% in 2027 (again, under optimal conditions). At the same time, incomes (for those who have a job or a pension) would decline (in real terms) by 60-70% by 2020 (as they have already dropped by 50% on aggregate and inflation will decimate them even further). I would expect that an average starting wage in Greece would decline to about 250-300 Euros per month in real terms by 2015 and would remain at the same levels until the middle of the next decade. Any “development” after “touching bottom” would be at very low rates, at about 2%, and it would not be accompanied by any significant increase in employment (a no-jobs development). These are the prospects of Greece within the Eurozone, memoranda or not. Thus, it is the retention of the country within the Eurozone that is the main issue, not the memoranda. A truly decisive letter would have emphasized to these leaders that their anti-memoranda policy is hypocritical (where are they going to get the money to run any other policy?) and it is high time to take an honest stand, shed the “European insecurities” and recruit the population for the only real solution that exists. ----------------- I really do not expect any incisive comments here, the intellectual capacity of most of the contributors here is minimal. I am glad to see we have lost Gogu and his stream of insults. He is "unloading" somewhere else, I am sure.

If you want to see what will happen to Greece if it reverts to the drachma then just have a look at Argentina, only it would be a lot worse. Lowering your currency to boost exports only works on exporting countries.
Greece exports very little besides agriculture and the non agriculture exports rely on imported goods in the business chain. Many small businesses that rely on imports will be devastated. The good part is real estate will plummet giving me a buying opportunity.

MacedoniaIsGreek

unread,

Feb 12, 2013, 1:47:40 AM2/12/13

to na...@na.ca

On Tuesday, 12 February 2013 13:44:29 UTC+10:30, Nashton wrote:
> On 13-02-11 7:03 PM, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
>
> > On Monday, 11 February 2013 22:51:56 UTC+10:30, mto...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> <deletia>
>
>
>
> > Closness to Truth? Once again, economic theories are never black and white!
>
>
>
> Oh pulease. We're not talking about an individual who is knowledgeable
>
> or that even has a minimum comprehension of economic theory.
>
>
>
> We're talking about an individual who goes around calling people idiots
>
> and morons because they don't agree with him. An individual that runs
>
> away from discussions and has hijacked this group with his insistence
>
> that only he can be correct and everyone else is simple too stupid to
>
> even begin to understand his "genius,"
>
>
>
> In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you are yet another one of his socks...
>

Nashton,

I am not anybodys sock! That is ADR's style, but if you disagree make your point and debate! Dont throw meaningless insults.

I am attempting to find a balance on these discussions, and take everyones opinion into consideration. Yes, I dont agree with reverting back to the Drachma, as the Hellenic economy is not a high exporter of goods like Argentina, hence could prove disasterous. I generally disagree with ADR. However, have learned a thing or 2 from his points.

In term of politics, I mentioned I am an e8nikistis, and have a dislike for left leaning sympathisers. I am socialist when it comes to my people 'The Hellenes' in terms of social security, healthcare, and basic human needs. I find it sickening when I hear stories of Hellenic students fainting at school due to lack of food, poor quality clothing and medicines that arent provided. This is embarrassing and breaks my heart in this day and age. In Australia in the 1960s a fellow Hellenic family in the community were treated like cousins, I cannot work out for the life of me why we have become antagonistic towards each other?

Instead of talking irrelevant stupidities, why dont the diaspora communities start donating to build infrastructure, economic stimuli, and provide bare essentials for the Hellenes? We are one of the richest diapora communities hence cannot get the motherland back on track!

ADR on the current fiscal crisis : "There is no evidence
>
> whatsoever that Greece spent irresponsibly and that it did not manage
>
> its debt."

Well, I saw it with my own eyes! As did you and everyone else. However, was just one of the contributing factors in the predicament.

Talk tomorrow...

>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> --
>
> ADR on Greece's National Anthem :
>
>
>
> "However, as our national hymn states, "fear rules the land"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Gavrilos

unread,

Feb 12, 2013, 8:00:27 AM2/12/13

unread,

Feb 12, 2013, 7:19:24 PM2/12/13

to

Listen, I am not arrogant at all. However, as I pointed out before, I would repeat the statement that "against stupidity, even the Gods themselves contend in vain".

My syllogism could have been easily followed by a 5-year old. I wanted simply to show that the drachma is not incompatible with a growing economy and the Euro does not necessarily mean wealth, stability and growth. How difficult was this to understand. Not much, I hope.

Now, do I really care if Botswana managed growth in the last 5 years. No, not really. I guess it did so (and so did Bulgaria) without the Euro. Thus, one is bringing examples that disprove ones main point. Then, we have the even more stupider "developing country" ...scratching head as to what this means!!!

Listen, most of the time, I do not answer these bozos because they do not deserve an answer. They do not even know how much 2 + 2 is. It is not that one deals here with people of any intelligence. They even congratulate each other for being total morons. A true confederation of dunces.

I am out of here....until I need to have a bit more fun.

annokato

unread,

Feb 12, 2013, 8:02:35 PM2/12/13

to

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:19:24 PM UTC-5, ADR wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:34:25 PM UTC-8, mto...@gmail.com wrote: > > This level of stupidity is simply brain-numbing!!! Have a nice day! > > > > Why don't you get off your intellectual high horse and actually provide an answer for this? > > > > Unless the stupidity you were referring to was your own and I thought you were being arrogant. Listen, I am not arrogant at all. However, as I pointed out before, I would repeat the statement that "against stupidity, even the Gods themselves contend in vain". My syllogism could have been easily followed by a 5-year old. I wanted simply to show that the drachma is not incompatible with a growing economy and the Euro does not necessarily mean wealth, stability and growth. How difficult was this to understand. Not much, I hope. Now, do I really care if Botswana managed growth in the last 5 years. No, not really. I guess it did so (and so did Bulgaria) without the Euro. Thus, one is bringing examples that disprove ones main point. Then, we have the even more stupider "developing country" ...scratching head as to what this means!!! Listen, most of the time, I do not answer these bozos because they do not deserve an answer. They do not even know how much 2 + 2 is. It is not that one deals here with people of any intelligence. They even congratulate each other for being total morons. A true confederation of dunces. I am out of here....until I need to have a bit more fun.

In your recent statement to the Greek academics did you insult the ones that didn't agree with you? Or do all the Greek academics agree with you? In response to your childish question about 2 + 2 the answer is 22.
Unless of course you meant to say the sum of 2 + 2 which is 4.
God you are so ignorant!

Nashton

unread,

Feb 12, 2013, 11:14:12 PM2/12/13

to

On 13-02-12 8:19 PM, ADR wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:34:25 PM UTC-8, mto...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> This level of stupidity is simply brain-numbing!!! Have a nice day!
>>

> My syllogism could have been easily followed by a 5-year old.

Which really ought to be your intended audience.

--
ADR on Greece's National Anthem :

"However, as our national hymn states, "fear rules the land"

ADR on the current fiscal crisis : "There is no evidence
whatsoever that Greece spent irresponsibly and that it did not manage
its debt."

MacedoniaIsGreek

unread,

Feb 13, 2013, 12:58:55 AM2/13/13

to

>And Bulgaria has been growing at 12.8% in the 2008-12 period, compared to >Germany's 7.8% growth for the same time period, so therefore Bulgaria must be >crazy for wanting to join the Eurozone or something sinister must be taking >place.
> Botswana's staggering 28.9% growth for 2008-2012 indicates it is a healthier economy than Germany.

>ADR eloquently suggested:

This level of stupidity is simply brain-numbing!!! Have a nice day!

>

> And then "Kostas" says this guy is "decent" and we should not...insult him!
> Or he is naive or he is another sock puppet of ADR/Roubini.
>

> This is not an insult, it's just a characterization of this sick individual.

> We know him better to know that he's just a waste of time.

Ok I agree that in this instance that ADR displayed total disregard and arrogance to the posters that oppose his views. The Excellent point made warrants a response:

"And Bulgaria has been growing at 12.8% in the 2008-12 period, so therefore Bulgaria must be crazy for wanting to join the Eurozone"

I was actually looking forward to ADR's reply in this instance. An in depth economical left-wing analysis based on his beliefs. Bulgaria obviously contradicts his theory that currency is a major factor contributing to negative economic climate and objectives. However, he still may reply!

I cant see why the Bulgarian example is simply brain-numbing? Please elaborate ADR and earn the respect of fellow posters?? Please, no insulting one liners ADR!

In addition, I have respect for all PhDs no matter the research topic that it was acquired in.

Have a nice one!

Kosta

Nashton

unread,

Feb 13, 2013, 6:24:54 AM2/13/13

to

On 13-02-13 1:58 AM, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
>
>> ADR eloquently suggested:
> This level of stupidity is simply brain-numbing!!! Have a nice day!
>
>>
>> And then "Kostas" says this guy is "decent" and we should not...insult him!
>> Or he is naive or he is another sock puppet of ADR/Roubini.
>>
>> This is not an insult, it's just a characterization of this sick individual.
>> We know him better to know that he's just a waste of time.
>

<snip>

I snipped your post because I just don't have the time to reformat the
message to respond to you (long chars).

Listen, nobody takes this person seriously and you would be well advised
to do the same.

As far as I'm concerned, I have respect for individuals who display
humility, support their views and opinions with facts and treat others
with respect.
YMMV

>
> Have a nice one!
>
> Kosta
>

ADR

unread,

Feb 13, 2013, 12:31:47 PM2/13/13

to

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:58:55 PM UTC-8, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:

> Ok I agree that in this instance that ADR displayed total disregard and arrogance to the posters that oppose his views. The Excellent point made warrants a response:

> "And Bulgaria has been growing at 12.8% in the 2008-12 period, so therefore Bulgaria must be crazy for wanting to join the Eurozone"

For Bulgaria, with theoretically lower labor costs for most, an annual rate of economic growth of about 2.5% is not very good. Again, it is the total GDP that counts. A 2.5% increase in a very low GDP (probably under 100 billion Euros) is not very impressive. If the Bulgarian economy has any hopes for ever reaching a EU-15 living standard, it has to grow far faster than this.

As for joining the Euro, many Eastern European countries, mindful of what is happening, have, for the time being, put the project on hold, notably Poland. Bulgaria and Romania are just too remote right now and their major pre-occupation is the status of their workers in moving in the EU.

> I was actually looking forward to ADR's reply in this instance. An in depth economical left-wing analysis based on his beliefs. Bulgaria obviously contradicts his theory that currency is a major factor contributing to negative economic climate and objectives. However, he still may reply!

How is this? Please explain why you believe that the lev contributes to a "negative economic climate" in Bulgaria and I would answer. Let me see your syllogism. Give me your arguments. Nothing is "really obvious" to me. Make an argument.

> I cant see why the Bulgarian example is simply brain-numbing? Please elaborate ADR and earn the respect of fellow posters?? Please, no insulting one liners ADR!

Let me tell you that when one answers "apo tin poli erchome ke stin korfi kanella", then the only answer is an one liner because there is no way to reason with this person.

My point was to prove that Greece could grow with the drachma (and it obviously have). In fact, in the late '50s and 60's Greece experienced torrid growth rates (of course, under the drachma). I only took the last year that Greece utilized the drachma and contrasted with what is happening in the last 5 years: Growth under the drachma, stagnation and severe depression under the euro (and especially because of the Euro). Then somebody brings in Botswana and Bulgaria. It was really comical.

If any of you want to make a case as to why growth (or even aggressive growth) under the drachma is not possible, then be my guests (be mindful that the history says otherwise). My guess is that nobody can make this case and the arguments will disintegrate into irrelevancies and insults.

Nashton

unread,

Feb 13, 2013, 2:53:08 PM2/13/13

to

On 02-13-13 1:31 PM, ADR wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:58:55 PM UTC-8, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
>
>> Ok I agree that in this instance that ADR displayed total disregard and

arrogance to the posters that oppose his views. The Excellent point made

warrants a response:
>
>> "And Bulgaria has been growing at 12.8% in the 2008-12 period, so

therefore Bulgaria must be crazy for wanting to join the Eurozone"
>
> For Bulgaria, with theoretically lower labor costs for most, an annual

rate of economic growth of about 2.5% is not very good. Again, it is

the total GDP that counts. A 2.5% increase in a very low GDP (probably

under 100 billion Euros) is not very impressive. If the Bulgarian economy

has any hopes for ever reaching a EU-15 living standard, it has to grow

far faster than this.

********************************

How else would one measure economic growth other than % of GDP?

mto...@gmail.com

unread,

Feb 13, 2013, 4:35:35 PM2/13/13

to

> My point was to prove that Greece could grow with the drachma (and it obviously have). In fact, in the late '50s and 60's Greece experienced torrid growth rates (of course, under the drachma). I only took the last year that Greece utilized the drachma and contrasted with what is happening in the last 5 years: Growth under the drachma, stagnation and severe depression under the euro (and especially because of the Euro). Then somebody brings in Botswana and Bulgaria. It was really comical.

In the 1950's and 60's Greece was still a developing country. The "torrid" economic growth that you are describing was lopsided and largely due to commercial shipping. Today, commercial shipping would not be able to give Greece the kind of growth you imagine. Commercial shipping has plateaued. Besides, most of the generated revenue from commercial shipping is kept outside of the country, never benefiting it. If our shipping was defence-related, then that would have been a different story. But we don't have the infrastructure, experience or expertise for this.

> If any of you want to make a case as to why growth (or even aggressive growth) under the drachma is not possible, then be my guests (be mindful that the history says otherwise). My guess is that nobody can make this case and the arguments will disintegrate into irrelevancies and insults.

Be my guest to describe exactly how you imagine growth to happen under the hypothetical drachma.

The drachma will certainly give businesses, big and small, liquidity. What next?

MacedoniaIsGreek

unread,

Feb 13, 2013, 8:12:49 PM2/13/13

to

> > "And Bulgaria has been growing at 12.8% in the 2008-12 period, so therefore Bulgaria must be crazy for wanting to join the Eurozone"
>
> For Bulgaria, with theoretically lower labor costs for most, an annual rate of economic growth of about 2.5% is not very good. Again, it is the total GDP that counts.
>

> As for joining the Euro, many Eastern European countries, mindful of what is happening, have, for the time being, put the project on hold, notably Poland. Bulgaria and Romania are just too remote right now and their major pre-occupation is the status of their workers in moving in the EU.
>
> > I was actually looking forward to ADR's reply in this instance. An in depth economical left-wing analysis based on his beliefs. Bulgaria obviously contradicts his theory that currency is a major factor contributing to negative economic climate and objectives. However, he still may reply!

> > How is this? Please explain why you believe that the lev contributes to a "negative economic climate" in Bulgaria and I would answer. Let me see your syllogism. Give me your arguments. Nothing is "really obvious" to me. Make an argument.

ADR,

Just my opinion!
The official currency of the country will not make a substantial economic difference to local living standards and GDP, as opposed to the value of the actual currency. Therefore, if Bulgaria was utilising the Lev or the Euro - there wouldnt be any detailed difference in living standard, if costs remained on parity between the 2 currencies.

For instance, my parents visited Bulgaria last year, a meal in a tourist zone cost 10Euro. If the same meal cost 20Lev (2:1 ratio) then the currency is immaterial.

Therefore, if the Hellenic republic reverted to the Drachma, the cost of a meal would be the same regardless of the currency. You will then assume that I am "obtuse" as your core reasoning is the ability to devalue the national currency (drachma) as opposed to Euro? However, if Hellenic producers lowered their prices (due to lower wages), and produced highly demanded goods in a globalised environment, this would have a higher beneficial effect, opposed to devaluing the currency.

In addition, utilising the Euro brings a level of confidence to the psyche of the economy. In the early 2000s one Australia dollar purchased 48 US cents. I, like many others abandoned Australia and left to work in the States for exchange rate and personal advantages. If Greece would revert back to the drachma, I am sure the low currency would detract to many intellectuals and educated would pursue opportunities abroad, hence the "brain drain".
Greece does not need this situation at the moment. Rather, invest in the best minds, education and retaining thinkers in residence!
With the high $A, Australia is now attracting many of the quality resources in industry!

>
>
> > I cant see why the Bulgarian example is simply brain-numbing? Please elaborate ADR and earn the respect of fellow posters?? Please, no insulting one liners ADR!
>>
> Let me tell you that when one answers "apo tin poli erchome ke stin korfi kanella", then the only answer is an one liner because there is no way to reason with this person.
>

Once again, by supplying us with your reasoning, you will generate a deal of respect, rather than running with a one line superiority comment. Thanks for your analysis.

>
> My point was to prove that Greece could grow with the drachma (and it obviously have). In fact, in the late '50s and 60's Greece experienced torrid growth rates (of course, under the drachma). I only took the last year that Greece utilized the drachma and contrasted with what is happening in the last 5 years: Growth under the drachma, stagnation and severe depression under the euro (and especially because of the Euro). Then somebody brings in Botswana and Bulgaria. It was really comical.
>
>
>
> If any of you want to make a case as to why growth (or even aggressive growth) under the drachma is not possible, then be my guests (be mindful that the history says otherwise). My guess is that nobody can make this case and the arguments will disintegrate into irrelevancies and insults.

Once again, as I explained previously, my belief currency is inconsequential of other pressing issues as becoming competitive in a global market. Someone mentioned privatising tertiary education, Hellenic republic could be a leader in this industry, and rather than lining the coffers of the british institutions, investment can be generated in Hellas.

Talk again

ADR

unread,

Feb 13, 2013, 8:24:58 PM2/13/13

to

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:35:35 PM UTC-8, mto...@gmail.com wrote:
> > My point was to prove that Greece could grow with the drachma (and it obviously have). In fact, in the late '50s and 60's Greece experienced torrid growth rates (of course, under the drachma). I only took the last year that Greece utilized the drachma and contrasted with what is happening in the last 5 years: Growth under the drachma, stagnation and severe depression under the euro (and especially because of the Euro). Then somebody brings in Botswana and Bulgaria. It was really comical.
>
>
>
> In the 1950's and 60's Greece was still a developing country. The "torrid" economic growth that you are describing was lopsided and largely due to commercial shipping. Today, commercial shipping would not be able to give Greece the kind of growth you imagine. Commercial shipping has plateaued. Besides, most of the generated revenue from commercial shipping is kept outside of the country, never benefiting it. If our shipping was defence-related, then that would have been a different story. But we don't have the infrastructure, experience or expertise for this.

Totally, totally wrong. Where did you find this thing about "commercial shipping"? Not true. I do not think that we want to enter the discussion as to which sectors pushed development in the 50's and 60's (briefly, construction, manufacturing, tourism all experienced robust growth). What is this point about a "developing country"? Growth is not a given for developing countries. In fact, in previous decades many "developing" countries, especially some in Africa, experienced deep reductions in GDP. Turkey, for example, experienced dramatic recession crisis from the 70's to the late '90s. The point, of course, is that the currency was not an impediment to growth.

> > If any of you want to make a case as to why growth (or even aggressive growth) under the drachma is not possible, then be my guests (be mindful that the history says otherwise). My guess is that nobody can make this case and the arguments will disintegrate into irrelevancies and insults.
>
>
>
> Be my guest to describe exactly how you imagine growth to happen under the hypothetical drachma.
>
>
>
> The drachma will certainly give businesses, big and small, liquidity. What next?

At least, a semi-intelligent comment. Liquidity means existing the crisis. By exiting the crisis, growth would return by definition. The question is how to push the growth well above 2% to deal with unemployment. The current projections have unemployment peaking at 31% in 2014. Assuming a 2% growth from 2015 onwards, economic projections have unemployment remaining above 10% as late as 2027. This is unacceptable, I hope.

At the current time, exports represent 25% of GDP (you can check this yourself) and tourism represents 18% of GDP. My assumption, and that of most economists, is that return to the drachma will push these sectors up substantially, giving the country a growth rate out of these of about 5% for a couple of years. My assumption is that the assumption of the drachma will also increase the internal product contribution to retailing. Since consumption represents 70% of GDP in Greece, the moving of Greek products more aggressively into the retailing chain will also pump up growth rates. In addition, I expect that light manufacturing would make a come back, to substitute for more expensive imports. I would also expect that shipping services to become more competitive.

Now, this would provide a breathing space for Greece, regain lost wealth and give people hope. But for Greece to reach the capabilities of the core economies, it needs to fully remake its capitalist infrastructure and invest in the expansion of the labor participation in the economy. Currently, the capitalist infrastructure is extremely weak. The country would need to probably organize two additional peripheral exchanges and build strong investment banks. It would need to simplify the process of capital aggregation: it would need to make mergers and acquisitions much easier to accomplish. It would need to provide incentives for the formation of medium to large businesses; Greece has the highest number of small, single-proprietorship businesses as % GDP in all of the OECD. This contributes to the dispersal of capital. We need to find out how to concentrate capital and direct it to productive investments. In any case, this would be a great challenge. But it cannot happen in an atmosphere of crisis.

Second, Greece has the lowest labor participation in the population. We need to come with incentives to place young people to work and increase labor participation (thus increasing the tax base). Right now we have 58% youth unemployment! We typically had the highest youth unemployment rate in the EU (45% prior to the crisis). This is unacceptable. The state would need to expand training and provide incentives for businesses to hire new workers, partially subsidizing the effort (very much like Germany does). We got to put Greece to work!!

Of course, making the civil service more agile and more productive would also need to happen. But this cannot happen without a more substantive expansion of democracy in Greece. Greece is, at this time, the least democratic country in western Europe, with citizen participation in decision making at all-time low rates. If the citizens are not able to control the bureaucracy, we are not going everywhere. We need to reverse the excessive centralization of authority, that simply encourages secrecy and red tape. Let the citizens of the country kick ass!! In that context, all of the Kallikrates legislation would need to be repealed.

Well, this is just the beginning. A strategic development with the targeting of specific sectors, investment in green technologies, taking advantage of Greece's location, boosting the construction business by restructuring Greek cities, etc, etc. can all be considered and enacted. We can discuss all these pro-growth agendas until the cows come home; the simple truth is that nothing can happen under this severe crisis. Exit from the crisis should be the first, the sine que non step.

ADR

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Feb 13, 2013, 10:47:45 PM2/13/13

to

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:12:49 PM UTC-8, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
> > > "And Bulgaria has been growing at 12.8% in the 2008-12 period, so therefore Bulgaria must be crazy for wanting to join the Eurozone"
>
> >
>
> > For Bulgaria, with theoretically lower labor costs for most, an annual rate of economic growth of about 2.5% is not very good. Again, it is the total GDP that counts.
>
> >
>
> > As for joining the Euro, many Eastern European countries, mindful of what is happening, have, for the time being, put the project on hold, notably Poland. Bulgaria and Romania are just too remote right now and their major pre-occupation is the status of their workers in moving in the EU.
>
> >
>
> > > I was actually looking forward to ADR's reply in this instance. An in depth economical left-wing analysis based on his beliefs. Bulgaria obviously contradicts his theory that currency is a major factor contributing to negative economic climate and objectives. However, he still may reply!
>
>
>
> > > How is this? Please explain why you believe that the lev contributes to a "negative economic climate" in Bulgaria and I would answer. Let me see your syllogism. Give me your arguments. Nothing is "really obvious" to me. Make an argument.
>
>
>
> ADR,
>
>
>
> Just my opinion!
>
> The official currency of the country will not make a substantial economic difference to local living standards and GDP, as opposed to the value of the actual currency. Therefore, if Bulgaria was utilising the Lev or the Euro - there wouldnt be any detailed difference in living standard, if costs remained on parity between the 2 currencies.
> For instance, my parents visited Bulgaria last year, a meal in a tourist zone cost 10Euro. If the same meal cost 20Lev (2:1 ratio) then the currency is immaterial.
> Therefore, if the Hellenic republic reverted to the Drachma, the cost of a meal would be the same regardless of the currency. You will then assume that I am "obtuse" as your core reasoning is the ability to devalue the national currency (drachma) as opposed to Euro? However, if Hellenic producers lowered their prices (due to lower wages), and produced highly demanded goods in a globalised environment, this would have a higher beneficial effect, opposed to devaluing the currency.

First of all, you are repeating what I have explained to you, that ***exchange rates do not matter***. Yes, you are right in understanding correctly that ***exchange rates do not matter***. It is really totally immaterial if the dollar equals 120 yen or 2500 lire or 0.75 Euro. The total wealth matters.

Having dispensed with this, I will now explain to you why issuing your own currency matters. If you do not issue your own currency and have your own central bank, the only way to finance deficits is to borrow from the open market. You would need to convince the world bond purchasers to buy your paper. Usually, auctions are held. The typical rule is than when bond yields go above 7%, you throw in the towel and declare bankruptcy.

On the other hand, a country with its own currency would be able to escape the liquidity trap and engaging in quantitative easing (very much as the US and UK have done)by financing its own debt (partially), thus drastically reducing any external borrowing. This is why no country with deficits and her own currency is in any crisis. Do you know that Japan's debt is 230% GDP? But Japan has no crisis. In fact, levels of debt have nothing to do with the onset of the crisis. For example, Germany's total external public debt is probably well over 110% GDP when you add the Lander (individual states) debt to that of the federal government. Germany has borrowed more liberally than Greece but it can borrow money at ridiculously low rates.

Why can't Greece borrow at these terms? Simply because the bond traders believe that the Greek economy is not competitive. And they believe that it is not competitive because it cannot devalue to compensate for higher labor costs compared to Germany. Thus, the only lenders left, the troika, have demanded a process of "internal devaluation" which means severe austerity, drastic cuts in wages and pensions and drastic reductions in state expenditures. Thus, by the end of 2013, the Greek economy is expected to have decreased by a whopping 32% since 2009 (a drop not experienced by any other advanced country since records are kept since the 19th century). You can understand that even if a moderate growth commences in 2014, it would take close to two decades for Greece to reach the levels of GDP that it had in 2008. In the meantime, the rest of Europe would have left it way behind. Greece would become a poor backwater of Europe, a country bleeding population and living by simply serving tables of German tourists. Is this what you want?

> In addition, utilizing the Euro brings a level of confidence to the psyche of the economy. In the early 2000s one Australia dollar purchased 48 US cents. I, like many others abandoned Australia and left to work in the States for exchange rate and personal advantages. If Greece would revert back to the drachma, I am sure the low currency would detract to many intellectuals and educated would pursue opportunities abroad, hence the "brain drain".

Greece is experiencing severe brain drain as we speak. Everybody who can get out, is getting out. Right now!! And you did not move to the US because the exchange rate was 48 cents to the 1 Australian dollar. On this basis, the whole Japanese population would have been in the US and this would have been true for the whole Italian and Spanish population!!! Come on now!! You moved because the US presented you with more money making opportunities. The currency had nothing to do with it. If you were given a job in Japan where the exchange rate would have been 60 yen to 1 Australian dollar, you would have gone there is the offer was lucrative enough. I know that I would have!! In addition, I was among hundreds of members of the UK academia that moved to the US in the 80's, although one pound bought 2 US dollars at that time!!!

Let's be honest here.

> Greece does not need this situation at the moment. Rather, invest in the best minds, education and retaining thinkers in residence!

How can one invest when there is no money??? Greece has absolutely no money. It is fully bankrupt, kept afloat only be drips of money from the troika. There is nothing to invest, not a penny. In fact, all that one can do is cut and tax. To the bone....

> With the high $A, Australia is now attracting many of the quality resources in industry!

Whatever growth Australia is experiencing, it is not because of the currency exchange rate. In fact, the currency simply reflects the strength of the economy, as it should be. If the exchanges rates are important, then China and India would have been experiencing a recession of unprecedented proportions.

> > > I cant see why the Bulgarian example is simply brain-numbing? Please elaborate ADR and earn the respect of fellow posters?? Please, no insulting one liners ADR!
>
> >>
>
> > Let me tell you that when one answers "apo tin poli erchome ke stin korfi kanella", then the only answer is an one liner because there is no way to reason with this person.

> Once again, by supplying us with your reasoning, you will generate a deal of respect, rather than running with a one line superiority comment. Thanks for your analysis.

I do not mind replying to logical, sanguine comments, even if ill informed.

> Once again, as I explained previously, my belief currency is inconsequential of other pressing issues as becoming competitive in a global market. Someone mentioned privatising tertiary education, Hellenic republic could be a leader in this industry, and rather than lining the coffers of the british institutions, investment can be generated in Hellas.

Actually, you have been contradicting yourself. At a certain point you claim that exchange rates do not matter - something that I agree with - and they you say that you have emigrated because of the exchange rate of the Australian dollar and that Australia is experiencing growth because the Australian dollar increased in value. What is it?

Gavrilos

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Feb 14, 2013, 8:00:35 AM2/14/13

to

ADR explained on 2/13/2013 :

> On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:35:35 PM UTC-8, mto...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> My point was to prove that Greece could grow with the drachma (and it
>>> obviously have). In fact, in the late '50s and 60's Greece experienced
>>> torrid growth rates (of course, under the drachma). I only took the last
>>> year that Greece utilized the drachma and contrasted with what is happening
>>> in the last 5 years: Growth under the drachma, stagnation and severe
>>> depression under the euro (and especially because of the Euro). Then
>>> somebody brings in Botswana and Bulgaria. It was really comical.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the 1950's and 60's Greece was still a developing country. The "torrid"
>> economic growth that you are describing was lopsided and largely due to
>> commercial shipping. Today, commercial shipping would not be able to give
>> Greece the kind of growth you imagine. Commercial shipping has plateaued.
>> Besides, most of the generated revenue from commercial shipping is kept
>> outside of the country, never benefiting it. If our shipping was
>> defence-related, then that would have been a different story. But we don't
>> have the infrastructure, experience or expertise for this.

Both of you experts,forgot the contribution of Greek immigrants
especially from the US that helped finance the construction of Athens
which in MHO is a monstrocity,but that is another subject.For example
one branch of Atlantic Bank of NY(branch of the NationalBank of Greece
since 1927)used to send to Greece on the average 10 million dollars a
month to Greece,until Reagan changed the Law in 1986.

> Totally, totally wrong. Where did you find this thing about "commercial
> shipping"? Not true. I do not think that we want to enter the discussion as
> to which sectors pushed development in the 50's and 60's (briefly,
> construction, manufacturing, tourism all experienced robust growth). What is
> this point about a "developing country"? Growth is not a given for
> developing countries. In fact, in previous decades many "developing"
> countries, especially some in Africa, experienced deep reductions in GDP.
> Turkey, for example, experienced dramatic recession crisis from the 70's to
> the late '90s. The point, of course, is that the currency was not an
> impediment to growth.
>

All both of you have to do is ask older Greeks and how they bought
"diamerismata" in Athens, both of you support baseless theories,it was
the Green buck and to lesser degree Australian and Canadian dollars
that was driving the Greek economy from the late 50s well into the late
80s

>>> If any of you want to make a case as to why growth (or even aggressive
>>> growth) under the drachma is not possible, then be my guests (be mindful
>>> that the history says otherwise). My guess is that nobody can make this
>>> case and the arguments will disintegrate into irrelevancies and insults.

Read my answer above,you finally started talking about reforming the
"Greek System"no shit Sherlock you are the one accepting corruption and
holding on to unproductive public employees because you feel sorry for
them. Your polilogia cannot hide your false econopmic theories about
the Greek economy of the past,it was all done with smoked mirrors.You
can only fool the frangous for so long,time to pay your dues/loans.

--
hear hear
The common curse of mankind, folly
and ignorance, be thine in great revenue!

Yurikas

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Feb 14, 2013, 12:47:13 PM2/14/13

to

MacedoniaIsGreek brought next idea :
Are you ADR's brown noser?

ADR

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Feb 14, 2013, 1:41:22 PM2/14/13

to or19...@gmail.com

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 5:00:35 AM UTC-8, marciango wrote:

> Read my answer above,you finally started talking about reforming the
>
> "Greek System"no shit Sherlock you are the one accepting corruption and
>
> holding on to unproductive public employees because you feel sorry for
>
> them. Your polilogia cannot hide your false econopmic theories about
>
> the Greek economy of the past,it was all done with smoked mirrors.You
>
> can only fool the frangous for so long,time to pay your dues/loans.

Thank you for your contribution. Now, go eat a buritto!!

unread,

Feb 15, 2013, 9:36:01 AM2/15/13

to

Who Knew

> On Thursday, February 14, 2013 9:26:03 PM UTC-5, ADR wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 14, 2013 5:07:30 PM UTC-8, annokato wrote: > Because
>> of this debt Japan has seen it's GDP growth constantly decline and if
>> interest rates spike Japan could fall into a depression. What Japan needs to
>> do is bring it's GDP down to an acceptable level then and only then would I
>> invest. If Greece goes to the drachma I think I stand a better chance at the
>> casino. My guess is that as investor you have the luck of a casino player!!!
>> First of all, I doubt that you have the capability of investing in Japan.
>> Maybe you can get some ETFs that have a Japanese component, but this is
>> about all. In fact, if Greece reverts to the drachma, it would present many
>> exciting investment opportunities. In the first place, even by default, one
>> would be in a growth situation almost immediately. Certain Greek companies
>> would benefit greatly. Can you imagine the advantages of a Greek company
>> exporting olive oil, for example? It would be able to beat easily Italian
>> and Spanish competitors and flood export markets. The same for many other
>> products that are now being devastated because of the high Euro.

Yoy are right,the Greek Mercedes and Toyota will compete overseas,
here moron do a little math,how many tons of olive oil will pay for a
new Mercede or a 4WD Toyota. Go to Stanford and buy some common sense
or better yet move to Alaska to deal with the Inuit moose herders.

> My guess is that you don't have a PhD since you lack the intellectual
> capacity to reason. Olive oil you say? Wow! is that some kind of 1st century
> space rocket lubricant? Greeks grow the olives but its German and US
> engineering that turns the olives into oil. How will they be able to purchase
> equipment and parts with worthless drachmas? Won't that raise the price of
> olive oil for exports? If your input costs go up what happens to the profits?

I don't think he even saw an olive tree, the closest he came to one
is when he had to take a piss on one. You can tell this pseudo leftie
has no idea how olive oil is produced, did he ever went out to pick
olives with his "banker family"? The moron lacks the common sense to
appreciate the mechanics and the social meaning of a tradition that is
part of our heritage for millenia. it takes lots of people and time to
pick the olives when they fall from the tree,you still have to pay them
a decent wage regardless what financial instrument you use. And like
anokato said "you have to buy the Italian olive processing machinary
and German trucks to transport the product"

ADR

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Feb 15, 2013, 12:47:21 PM2/15/13

to

Ooohhhh...wait!!! How come I did not think of it??? Since we are now crashing olives with stones, we would need to import all brand new German machinery to extract olive oil.....Stupid me!!!!

Go have a buritto and let complicated thinking to somebody else. I am sure that your head is hurting already.....

Maybe you can get together with the other idiot, marciango, and knock heads together. Who knows, something may start working!!!!

LOL....

mto...@gmail.com

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Feb 15, 2013, 1:44:17 PM2/15/13

to

> Go have a buritto...

I think what annokato means is that olive oil extraction machines and other equipment found in oil factories are not made in Greece but in the US, Italy (and China).

Greek olive oil producers certainly use that equipment, but it didn't roll off the assembly lines of Greek factories. We imported it, as we do with other forms of technology.

The reason? Greeks are largely philosophers and conversationalists - not technologists. It's our collective idiosyncrasy. If we had a different collective idiosyncrasy, we also would've had a different economy. Lot's of hi-tech little start-ups forming up the work horse of the economy, as opposed to a couple of monolithic industries.

ADR

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Feb 15, 2013, 5:53:56 PM2/15/13

to

All untrue. In the first place, even if we assume that the equipment is made abroad, it does not mean that the current factories would need all brand new equipment to operate. Spare parts and maintenance can be made by very capable Greek machinists (and has, for a long time).

Again, it is not true that Greeks are largely philosophers and conversationalists. The type of the Greek economy is not at all determined by the character of Greeks (a statement that I find racist and offensive). The type of economy is determined by the availability of capital and level of education of the workforce. Greece is replete with small start-ups. This has never been the problem. The problem was funding these start-ups. As I noted before, Greece's economy is dominated by small businesses. Much, much more so than that of any other advanced country. So, the problem is not start-ups of any kind, the problem is the investing capacity of the economy.

Let me start here with Capitalism OO1: For any country to progress, it needs to amass capital. The best way to amass capital is to have a resource that can be collected and sold with relatively low level of technology. A very good example of this is oil and timber. For example, timber was the key driver for capital accumulation in the US from 1650 to 1820; Timber and oil remain the key drivers for capital accumulation in Canada (to this very day). Humongous amounts of capital are being generated by these resources. The capital can then be invested in a variety of high tech areas to provide a higher multiplier.

There are multipliers in Greece. There are many small high-tech companies, you simply do not know them. A really small number of them try to get some capital from foreign exchanges (New York, Frankfurt, London). Some are more successful than others. The Athens exchange is incapable of providing much capital. Greek banks are very uncomfortable with investment. They are very good in the retail banking sector, but near useless with investments and M&A. This is why I said that the capitalist infrastructure of Greece is near primitive. It functions only at a minimal degree.

Unfortunately, Greece lacks this resource that can provide substantial amount of capital. I know that the extreme right wing morons here will question as to how Holland, Belgium and other small countries can make it but Greece cannot. These numbskulls forget that Holland and Belgium generated huge amounts of capital that is percolating through their economy by exploiting the resources of their colonies for hundreds of years. And capital has a way of making more capital (it take money to make money!!). It is not that the Dutch are more studious, hard working or more clever than the Greeks. Quite the contrary. But the Dutch robbed most of the world (there were the most unashamed colonialists) and exploited vast colonies (such as Indonesia) for hundreds of years. On this basis, anybody can become rich.

Thus, talking about the "character of Greeks" as a determinant of economic growth in any way is simply ***fascist*** with the basic definition of the term. I do not think that you want to utilize fascist notions. Mussolini may have made the trains run on time (he "reformed" the character of the Italians!! chuckle, chuckle) but had no impact on Italian wealth creation.

Now, I know that Marciango here is a fascist. He is an unashamed admirer of Georgios Papadopoulos (the ex-Nazi dictator of Greece) having posted paeans to him in this forum. So is likely annokato and Nashton. Kickboxer is also unashamedly fascist. He is an admirer of "Golden Dawn", as he posted here repeatedly. Do you want to be like them? Be my guest. Their only currency is hatred.

If you want to discuss economic matters without such preconceptions, then I am fine with it.

annokato

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Feb 15, 2013, 6:19:53 PM2/15/13

to

On Friday, February 15, 2013 1:44:17 PM UTC-5, mto...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Go have a buritto... I think what annokato means is that olive oil extraction machines and other equipment found in oil factories are not made in Greece but in the US, Italy (and China). Greek olive oil producers certainly use that equipment, but it didn't roll off the assembly lines of Greek factories. We imported it, as we do with other forms of technology. The reason? Greeks are largely philosophers and conversationalists - not technologists. It's our collective idiosyncrasy. If we had a different collective idiosyncrasy, we also would've had a different economy. Lot's of hi-tech little start-ups forming up the work horse of the economy, as opposed to a couple of monolithic industries.

Thanks for explaining it to him. Maybe if enough people do the same it might eventually sink in. It's not just olive oil, take beer and wine for instance. Greek manufactures have to import much of the raw material, equipment and energy that goes into their production. If their currency looses value then the cost to produce and market will rise making them not so competitive.

Gavrilos

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Feb 15, 2013, 7:39:41 PM2/15/13

to

ADR explained on 2/15/2013 :

Did you ask the Greek left if they want the capital to be amassed by
the Greek capitalists,the Greek left classifies all capitalists as
thieves and blood suckers(Rizospastis,Antarsya etc) now you show us
your capitalist side so you can prove your point

> There are multipliers in Greece. There are many small high-tech companies,
> you simply do not know them. A really small number of them try to get some
> capital from foreign exchanges (New York, Frankfurt, London). Some are more
> successful than others. The Athens exchange is incapable of providing much
> capital. Greek banks are very uncomfortable with investment. They are very
> good in the retail banking sector, but near useless with investments and M&A.
> This is why I said that the capitalist infrastructure of Greece is near
> primitive. It functions only at a minimal degree.

Can you give us some examples of these "high tech" companies, in
detail(products,employees,and sales) so we can get some idea

> Unfortunately, Greece lacks this resource that can provide substantial amount
> of capital. I know that the extreme right wing morons here will question as
> to how Holland, Belgium and other small countries can make it but Greece
> cannot. These numbskulls forget that Holland and Belgium generated huge
> amounts of capital that is percolating through their economy by exploiting
> the resources of their colonies for hundreds of years. And capital has a way
> of making more capital (it take money to make money!!). It is not that the
> Dutch are more studious, hard working or more clever than the Greeks. Quite
> the contrary. But the Dutch robbed most of the world (there were the most
> unashamed colonialists) and exploited vast colonies (such as Indonesia) for
> hundreds of years. On this basis, anybody can become rich.

Lat time I checked my history sources,Finland,Sweden,Norway,South
Korea,Taiwan were never colonial powers, your theories are as usual
half baked, you think you talk to a bunch of vlahotsopanous get real.
BTW why are you all pseudo Greek lefties ignoring the South Korean
miracle? It puts all your theories to the stupid trash can.Greek
shipping magnates have spent over 100 billion dollars in So.Korean
shipyards since 2000.

> Thus, talking about the "character of Greeks" as a determinant of economic
> growth in any way is simply ***fascist*** with the basic definition of the
> term. I do not think that you want to utilize fascist notions. Mussolini
> may have made the trains run on time (he "reformed" the character of the
> Italians!! chuckle, chuckle) but had no impact on Italian wealth creation.

Really?Lancia,Fiat,Maserati.Ferrari, to name a few I believe are
Italian, I don't want to go down the list of Italian designers-get real

> Now, I know that Marciango here is a fascist. He is an unashamed admirer of
> Georgios Papadopoulos (the ex-Nazi dictator of Greece) having posted paeans
> to him in this forum. So is likely annokato and Nashton. Kickboxer is also
> unashamedly fascist. He is an admirer of "Golden Dawn", as he posted here
> repeatedly. Do you want to be like them? Be my guest. Their only currency
> is hatred.
>
> If you want to discuss economic matters without such preconceptions, then I
> am fine with it.

You heve been proven wrong(Argentina) time time again, thank Allah
you are not in charge of some Greek economic organization,I can see you
now the minute you meet Western European experts you are going to fake
a headache, because your Vlaho-Balkanian inferiority complex will
overwhelm your senses and you will be kissing their arses before the
meeting is over GET REAL, be carefull how you consume a hot dog lol lol

--
I wonder
Do Europeans, outside Southeast Europe, know the meaning of aman?

ADR

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Feb 15, 2013, 10:52:03 PM2/15/13

to or19...@gmail.com

On Friday, February 15, 2013 4:39:41 PM UTC-8, marciango wrote:

>
> Lat time I checked my history sources,Finland,Sweden,Norway,South
>
> Korea,Taiwan were never colonial powers, your theories are as usual
>
> half baked, you think you talk to a bunch of vlahotsopanous get real.

Oh, I know that you are a vlahotsompanos, as you have no knowledge of history at all.

First of all, Sweden. Sweden had two abundant resources that becaome huge capital generators: timber and iron. In addition, Sweden was the major power of northern Europe and fought for primacy there against Russia in the Great Northern war. Sweden lost its empire in Northern Europe (at a certain time, its empire include virtually all of Poland) but remained a major exporter of vast amounts of timber and iron. Its iron exports were so valuable that Germany had to occupy Norway to deny access to this resource to the British through the port of Narvik.

Norway has the largest oil deposits and oil income in Europe

Finland has a small population and abundant resources (timber, minerals) but the small population and the success of a couple of industries benefited the country

Taiwan was the recipient of huge amounts of capital of all kinds because of the escape of the Kuomitang and all those who could escape with it during the Chinese civil war. In addition, very much like Korea, it was a recipient of massive amounts of American capital. Both countries ran and continue to run a rather restrictive trade policy. In any case, the per capita income of those countries was actually a bit lower than that of Greece's in the beginning of the crisis.

Gavrilos

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Feb 16, 2013, 7:17:08 AM2/16/13

to

ADR expressed precisely :

STOP making excuses,Truman doctrine and the Marshall ring a bell
pseftoistorike tis okas. It is not how much aid or capital you receive
it is how you use it, some thing which the bottomless Greek system
has no idea how to manage.Where did all the money-sinalagma(1950-1990)
from the merchant marine and immigrants go? In the mean time check this
out it for lefties like you who................

Παρασκευή, 15 Φεβρουαρίου 2013
Για τους απλήρωτους δημοσιογράφους του "Ριζοσπάστη"
http://tsak-giorgis.blogspot.com/2013/02/blog-post_15.html

Nashton

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Feb 16, 2013, 7:55:35 AM2/16/13

to

On 13-02-13 9:24 PM, ADR wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:35:35 PM UTC-8, mto...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> At least, a semi-intelligent comment.

It's pretty darn obvious to even the most casual reader of this ng that
any attempts, big or small, to educate you on rudimentary economics is
in vain. In spite of your incessant Jeremiahds, you have been repeatedly
proven wrong on everything from the the time frame of the collapse of
the government, to Greece reverting to the drachma, to the Greek
authorities getting information on Swiss bank accounts and the list goes on.

You are utterly incapable of civil behavior and discussion and you
resort to insults and accusations (of me being a fascist, for example),
as if any of this accomplishes anything towards stating and
substantiating your positions.

I am personally quite done with you and in the meantime, chew on this
article that demonstrates how there is absolutely no system of checks
and balances in the most critical sphere of health care, where
specialists in Greece are involved, in a publicly funded health care
system, in the procurement of orthopedic material and get rich in the
process *systematically* on the tab of the public purse at at time where
poverty, destitution and hunger are daily occurrences:

http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=22768&subid=2&pubid=63783828

What's beautiful about the Usenet is that it provides ample rope for
people like you to hang themselves on a quasi-daily basis.

Beerlover

unread,

unread,

Feb 18, 2013, 1:17:22 AM2/18/13

to or19...@gmail.com

> Both of you experts,forgot the contribution of Greek immigrants
> especially from the US that helped finance the construction of Athens
> which in MHO is a monstrocity,but that is another subject.For example
> one branch of Atlantic Bank of NY(branch of the NationalBank of Greece
> since 1927)used to send to Greece on the average 10 million dollars a

> All both of you have to do is ask older Greeks and how they bought
> "diamerismata" in Athens, both of you support baseless theories,it was
> the Green buck and to lesser degree Australian and Canadian dollars

This leads to my next point. I don't understand why the Hellenic government is not leveraging from the powerful Hellenic diaspora of the US, Aus, Canada etc. Ofcourse I am not referring to donations and funding "aid" as a quick band-aid solution.
ADR mentioned that there is "no money to invest" in Greece as we are bankrupt, however you have to "speculate to accumulate".

Many diaspora Greeks would gladly invest substantial sums if they had the capability of realising returns, without the current bureaucracy and corruption.
Hellenes should build strategic business models that demostrate capacity for growth and returns. Establishing infrastructure projects may be financed via diaspora communities e.g. Fish farms, Hellenic call centers or even establishing private universities? Linking the great ancient thinkers into world-class philosphy or arts degrees - attracting young westerners studying a gap year as degree credit? Invest in utilising the large proportion off tertiary educated younger citizens.

>
> > Well, this is just the beginning. A strategic development with the targeting
> > of specific sectors, investment in green technologies, taking advantage of
> > Greece's location, boosting the construction business by restructuring Greek
> > cities, etc, etc. can all be considered and enacted. We can discuss all
> > these pro-growth agendas until the cows come home; the simple truth is that
> > nothing can happen under this severe crisis. Exit from the crisis should be
> > the first, the sine que non step.
>

Once again, I disagree. The Hellenic government needs to make global investment attractive in the Hellenic republic. "Nothing can happen" in the localised economy given the current crises. The government needs to attract foreign investment, but will not happen with the current bureaucratic structures, venality and nepotism. This has been ingrained in Greek society for such a long period, however the government has a huge capacity to implement change whilst there is no better alternative. Easier said than done!

Beerlover

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Feb 18, 2013, 7:22:18 AM2/18/13

to

If Greeks (sorry: Hellenes) don't take care, we'll be selling them olive oil.

Considering I don�t have an academic degree or some higher education, I�ll have to be careful and humble.
Greece�s main problem (the way I see it) is, that they�ve had �money for nothing� for a long time.
You�d see the same phenomena with food distribution in hunger-struck countries.
As soon as food is for free, local farmers stop producing because they would never make a profit as long as food is distributed.
The food producing infrastructure crumbles until it�s vanished.
In Greece, money was almost for free.
And so, during the years, Greece has lost the urge or necessity to compete.
There was no need of building a financial infrastructure that would enable or help Greece�s producers to compete.
Money kept coming in and nobody wondered where it came from.
There is a complete generation, well educated, that hasn�t learnt to fight for their money.
It�s the generation that is in their 30-40�s now.
In the most powerful phase of their life.
It�s the most painful part of the whole story.
Highly educated and not knowing what to do.
Like rabbits gazing at the headlights of a fast approaching car.
It�s a shame.
And you know what?
Apart from exporting lots of consumer products (you�ve forgotten our worldwide nr. 1 position of exporting seed potatoes!!), we�ve also exported money.
To my opinion, we Dutch, play a huge part in Greece�s situation.
It�s the easy way out for our banks and politicians to blame Hellenes for mismanaging Greece�s economy.
Our �wise guys� must have known what the outcome would be.
That makes us, Dutch, as guilty as Hellenes.
Was it Dire Straits album Brothers in Arms that had this song on it? �Get your money for nothing get your chicks for free�.
Go for the blondes and have fun with them!!

ADR

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Feb 18, 2013, 2:48:15 PM2/18/13

to or19...@gmail.com

On Sunday, February 17, 2013 10:17:22 PM UTC-8, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:

> This leads to my next point. I don't understand why the Hellenic government is not leveraging from the powerful Hellenic diaspora of the US, Aus, Canada etc. Ofcourse I am not referring to donations and funding "aid" as a quick band-aid solution.
>
> ADR mentioned that there is "no money to invest" in Greece as we are bankrupt, however you have to "speculate to accumulate".

First of all, as long as Greece is on a downwards trajectory with potentially disruptive consequences, it is unlikely that there would be any meaningful investments there by anybody (including the Greek diaspora). However, several organizations are certainly distributing aid. However, I have to say that the Greek government has little credibility and little sympathy in the Greek American community.

> Many diaspora Greeks would gladly invest substantial sums if they had the capability of realizing returns, without the current bureaucracy and corruption.

Greek Americans do not have any problems investing money in China where corruption at much larger scale is endemic. It is the return proposition that troubles people. Greece is not a good investment opportunity either now or in the future. To make Greece an attractive investment opportunity, the areas of change that would need to be affected unfortunately require massive infrastructure investments. You need to compare the steps taken by Barcelona to make Catalonia a desirable investment opportunity (and a great place to transact business) with those taken by Athens and other major Greek centers and you will see the differences

> Hellenes should build strategic business models that demostrate capacity for growth and returns. Establishing infrastructure projects may be financed via diaspora communities e.g. Fish farms, Hellenic call centers or even establishing private universities? Linking the great ancient thinkers into world-class philosphy or arts degrees - attracting young westerners studying a gap year as degree credit? Invest in utilising the large proportion off tertiary educated younger citizens.

Hmmm...Greece is somewhere in the middle in Europe in levels of university education. It certainly does not lead. These are good ideas but they won't be realized until the economic situation has been stabilized. When citizens are losing buying power by the moment, I do not think that it is possible to have a positive investment climate.

>
> Once again, I disagree. The Hellenic government needs to make global investment attractive in the Hellenic republic. "Nothing can happen" in the localised economy given the current crises. The government needs to attract foreign investment, but will not happen with the current bureaucratic structures, venality and nepotism. This has been ingrained in Greek society for such a long period, however the government has a huge capacity to implement change whilst there is no better alternative. Easier said than done!

Investment is not withheld because of bureaucracy. This is a myth. Business goes where money can be made and they "work through" the problems. If in the future Greece presents in good money making opportunity, businesses will invest. When Greece presented a great opportunity to make money in wireless and telecommunications, the investments and the multinationals appeared (and had no problem "greasing" local politicians to get the business)

gogu

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Feb 18, 2013, 3:51:57 PM2/18/13

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? "MacedoniaIsGreek" <artw...@yahoo.com> ?????? ??? ??????
news:f46e95cb-1d36-472e...@googlegroups.com...

Well, it didn't take a lot to show your true /colourscharacter behind all
those "be nice, be decent, be nice, do not insult, bla bla bla"...
Pitty...

annokato

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Feb 18, 2013, 5:20:38 PM2/18/13

to or19...@gmail.com

On Monday, February 18, 2013 1:17:22 AM UTC-5, MacedoniaIsGreek wrote:
> > Both of you experts,forgot the contribution of Greek immigrants > especially from the US that helped finance the construction of Athens > which in MHO is a monstrocity,but that is another subject.For example > one branch of Atlantic Bank of NY(branch of the NationalBank of Greece > since 1927)used to send to Greece on the average 10 million dollars a > All both of you have to do is ask older Greeks and how they bought > "diamerismata" in Athens, both of you support baseless theories,it was > the Green buck and to lesser degree Australian and Canadian dollars This leads to my next point. I don't understand why the Hellenic government is not leveraging from the powerful Hellenic diaspora of the US, Aus, Canada etc. Ofcourse I am not referring to donations and funding "aid" as a quick band-aid solution. ADR mentioned that there is "no money to invest" in Greece as we are bankrupt, however you have to "speculate to accumulate". Many diaspora Greeks would gladly invest substantial sums if they had the capability of realising returns, without the current bureaucracy and corruption. Hellenes should build strategic business models that demostrate capacity for growth and returns. Establishing infrastructure projects may be financed via diaspora communities e.g. Fish farms, Hellenic call centers or even establishing private universities? Linking the great ancient thinkers into world-class philosphy or arts degrees - attracting young westerners studying a gap year as degree credit? Invest in utilising the large proportion off tertiary educated younger citizens. > > > Well, this is just the beginning. A strategic development with the targeting > > of specific sectors, investment in green technologies, taking advantage of > > Greece's location, boosting the construction business by restructuring Greek > > cities, etc, etc. can all be considered and enacted. We can discuss all > > these pro-growth agendas until the cows come home; the simple truth is that > > nothing can happen under this severe crisis. Exit from the crisis should be > > the first, the sine que non step. > Once again, I disagree. The Hellenic government needs to make global investment attractive in the Hellenic republic. "Nothing can happen" in the localised economy given the current crises. The government needs to attract foreign investment, but will not happen with the current bureaucratic structures, venality and nepotism. This has been ingrained in Greek society for such a long period, however the government has a huge capacity to implement change whilst there is no better alternative. Easier said than done!

The best things that any government can do is rid itself of corruption, downsize to as small as possible and stop getting in the way of
business. The governments role is to provide and enforce justice, defence, law and order. To provide social programs payed for through taxes and not
by borrowed money. It is *NOT* the governments role or responsibility to act or behave as a business.
Governments can't run something so simple as an airline company but yet you, and many others, expect them to run the economy?
It was the US government that caused the financial crisis by keeping interest rates artificially low. By passing policies and creating
entities to sell homes to people that couldn't afford then. Then, PhDs from prestigious universities, created financial instruments to distribute
this debt to almost the entire world. Now the US government is manufacturing an even bigger crisis by refusing to cut spending and
continues to print money to prop up it's failing economy. This IMO will have devastating effects to the US economy and the rest of the world.

Before you can fix any problem you must know the cause. You claim you are interested in learning and I admire that but my advice to you is to listen to people like Gogu that actually run a business. Not to paper pushers that
have no clue of how the real world works.

MacedoniaIsGreek

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Feb 18, 2013, 7:37:32 PM2/18/13

to

Sorry if you feel that way. I obviously fell for the troll...
I still believe that we can all be civilised in this forum, even if we have conflicting views.
Its about respect. ADR does make academc and intelligent points, however there is no need to make spiteful insults if we disagree with "left wing" analytics.
We all have one thing in common, a true love for the Hellenic republic!

MacedoniaIsGreek

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Feb 18, 2013, 8:02:26 PM2/18/13

to or19...@gmail.com

>
> The best things that any government can do is rid itself of corruption, downsize to as small as possible and stop getting in the way of
> business. The governments role is to provide and enforce justice, defence, law and order. To provide social programs payed for through taxes and not
>
> by borrowed money. It is *NOT* the governments role or responsibility to act or behave as a business.

> Governments can't run something so simple as an airline company but yet you, and many others, expect them to run the economy?

Good point. However the government has to economic tools and policies at its disposal to assist the business of running the country. Subsidies, tariffs, monetary policy (influenced by EU central bank), fiscal policy all contribute to an environment that make foreign investment attractive in HR.

> It was the US government that caused the financial crisis by keeping interest rates artificially low. By passing policies and creating
>
> entities to sell homes to people that couldn't afford then. Then, PhDs from prestigious universities, created financial instruments to distribute
>
> this debt to almost the entire world. Now the US government is manufacturing an even bigger crisis by refusing to cut spending and
>
> continues to print money to prop up it's failing economy. This IMO will have devastating effects to the US economy and the rest of the world.

Yes, I agree NINJA loans financing property were to the detriment of all western eceonomies. I was living in the UK from 2005-2010 and at one stage in early 2008, property in London was rising by 2000quid per week (what agents told me). Printing money devalues the $US, that may have short term benefits.

>
>
> Before you can fix any problem you must know the cause. You claim you are interested in learning and I admire that but my advice to you is to listen to people like Gogu that actually run a business. Not to paper pushers that
>
> have no clue of how the real world works.

Generally agree with Gogus' points. We are from the same side of the political divide. As I asked ADR for his analysis and theories, I would also like to read Gogu's interpretation of what can be done to encourage investment in the HR? Its easy to criticise peoples thoughts. From a business perspective, apart from the point of downsizing government structures - what can be done in the short term to encourage substantial investment?

Why arent graduates, highly educated and PhDs consulting with the Hellenic government to put some of these plans into action?

I have noticed substantial whingeing and strikes from the populace, but apart from the defeatist attitude, solutions are seriously lacking in the HR.