Turkish/Greek common vocabulary
Guven Guzeldere
On behalf of Esref Eskinat and Paris Tsobanakis:
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When the Greeks and Turks come together, one of the main topics of
conversation is usually the common dishes they eat ( there is
essentially no difference between two kitchens, we believe it is the
best food in the world) and the common words they use to describe their
daily experiences. Although the two languages have very different
origins, centuries of living together in the same part of the world
brought many exchanges between the two languages.
Being encouraged by a previous effort by a Greek and a Turk at
Lehigh, we decided to compile the common words in the two languages.
Our task could have been much easier if there were a Greek-Turkish
dictionary. Unfortunately, today such a dictionary does not exist.
We were helped and encouraged by many friends, many of whom contributed
to the compilation. The result is a short dictionary of common words
between our languages. It contains about 550 words. In selecting the
words we had a few criteria :
- The scientific and medicine terms which are Greek in origin are
not included in the list. Otherwise we would have to compile thousands
of words, but we wanted to find the words which show the cultural bonds
between two people.
- For the same reason, we tried to exclude the words which entered
to both languages from Western sources (mainly Latin, French, English)
- We excluded slang and local common words as much as possible.
Slang expressions which have become daily words were included.
We don't claim that the compilation is complete. Every one can
enlarge it. We would very much appreciate if you notify us for the new
words you have found.
The arrangement of the words according to the Turkish alphabet is
arbitrary. If some computer scientist could rearrange the words in the
Greek alphabetical order, we should be grateful.
We are aware of the difficulties in the relations between the two
countries. We, the two of us,have disagreements on the issues such as
Cyprus and Aegean sea. This does not prevent us from being good
friends. We have seen over and over again how good friends Turks and
Greeks can become if they can overcome their nationalistic sentiments.
This little effort is dedicated to the friendship of the two people.
Paris Tsobanakis - Esref Eskinat
(pt...@lehigh.bitnet)-(ee...@lehigh.bitnet)
______________________________________________________________________
A COMPILATION OF COMMON WORDS IN TURKISH AND GREEK
TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
________________________________________________________________
Adet Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba Father Babas
Baca Chimney Batzias
Bacak Leg, leg of trousers in G. Batzaki
Bacanak Brother in law Batjanakis
Baglama A string instrument Baglamas
Bahce Garden Bahtses
Bahsis Tip Baxisi
Bakir Copper Bakiri
Bakkal Grocer Bakkalis
Baklava Baklava Baklavas
Balta Ax Baltas
Bamya Okra Bamia
Barbunya A fish Barbunia
Barut Gunpowder Baruti
Battaniye Woolen Blanket Batania
Batakci Swindler Bataxis
Bayrak Flag Bairaki
Bekar Batchelor Bekiaris
Bekri Drunk Bekris
Bela Trouble Belas
Benzin Petrol, gas Benzina
Bereket Abundance, plenty Bereket
Beton Concrete Beton
Bey Mr. Beis
Bezelye Pea Bizeli
Biber Pepper Piperi
Biftek Steak Bifteki
Bodrum Cellar, dungeon Boudroumi
Bomba Bomb Bomba
Bostan Vegetable field, garden Bostani
Bora Storm Bora
Boya Paint Bogia
Borek Pastry, pie Boureki
Bre Hi, you Vre
Budala Idiot Boudalas
Bulgur Boiled wheat Bligouri
But Thigh Bouti
Buz Ice, very cold Bouzi
Buzuki Bouzouki Bouzouki
Cacik A drink with cucumbers Tzatziki
Caka Swagger, vanity Tsaka
Cam Window pane Tzami
Cami Mosque Tzami
Cambaz Acrobat, dealer in G. Tzambazis
Cenabet Crabbed person Tzanabetis
Cep Pocket Tsepi
Cereme Fine or cost of damage Tzeremes
Cezve Coffee Pot Tzesves
Ciger Liver, lungs Tziyeri
Cimbiz Tweezers Tsimpida
Cuce Dwarf Tsutzes
Cadir Tent Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif Slightly drunk Tsakir-kefi
Cali Thorny plant Tsiali
Calim Flexibility, show off Tsalimi
Cam Pine tree Tsami
Canak Shallow bowl Tsanaki
Canta Handbag Tsanta
Capacul Untidy Tsapatulis
Capari Weight anchor Tsapari
Capkin Seducer, coquettish Tsahpinis
Capraz Crossed Tsaprazi
Cardak Hut of dried branches Tsardaki
Carsi Market Charsi
Carik Rustic shoe Tsarouhi
Catal Fork Tsatala
Catra Patra Stumbling speech Tsatra patra
Cavus Sergeant Tsausis
Cay Tea Tsai
Celebi Pleasant man, mentor Tselebis
Cember Circle Tsemperi
Cengel Hook Tsingeli
Ciklet Chewing gum Tsikla
Ciftetelli A dance Tsiftetelli
Ciftlik Large country estate Tsifliki
Cifit Tight in money Tsifoutis
Cimento Cement Tsimento
Cinko Zinc Tsingos
Ciftlik Big farm, property Tsifliki
Cirak Apprentice Tsiraki
Cipura A fish Tsipura
Ciroz A fish Tsiros
Coban Shepherd Tsobanis
Corap Woolen sock Tsurapis
Corba soup Tsorbas
Corek Large bun Tsoureki
Cotra File fish Tsotra
Dalavere Trick, deceit Dalavere
Dalga Wave (sorrow,love in G.) Dalka
Dantel Lace Ntantella
Darbuka Drum Ntarbuka
Davul Drum Ntauli
Defne Laurel Dafni
Defter Notebook Tefteri
Demet Bouquet Demati
Dervis Dervish Dervisis
Dert Sorrow, trouble Derti
Despot Despot Despotis
Diploma Diploma Diploma
Direk Pole Ntereki
Divan Sofa Divani
Diyakos Deacon Diakos
Dogru Straight Dogrou
Domates Tomatoes Ntomates
Dolap Cupboard Ntoulapi
Dolma Stuffed leaves Ntolmas
Drahoma Dowry Trahoma
Duvar Wall Ntouvari
Dumbelek Small drum Toumbeleki
Dumen Rudder, steering wheel Timoni
Duzine Dozen Ntouzina
Efendi Gentleman Afendis
Eksen Axis Axonas
Enginar Artichoke Anginara
Evlek A measure of land Avlakia
Falcata Shoemaker's knife Faltseta
Fanus Lantern, lampglass Fanos
Faras Dust pan Farasi
Farfara Empty headed, frivolity Farfara
Fasulye Bean Fasoulia
Fener Lantern Fanari
Ferman Sultan's word Firmani
Fincan Cup Flitzani
Findik Walnut Fountouki
Firca Brush Vourtsa
Firkete Hairpin Fourketa
Fidan Plant, sapling Fidani
Filozof Philosopher Filosofos
Fisek Cartridge Fiseki
Fistan Woman's dress Foustani
Fistik Pistacchio Nuts Fistiki
Fitil Fuse Fitili
Fol Nest egg (Pros) Foli
Fukara Poor,Hopeless Fukaras
Gaf Mistake, blunder Gafi
Gaile Care ,Difficulty Gaila
Galeta Breadcrumbs Galeta
Gargara Gargle Gargara
Gazoz Fizzy water Gazoza
Gem Horse bridle Gemi
Gemici Sailor Gemitzis
Gonder Flag pole Kontari
Goril Gorilla Gorillas
Gubre Manure, fertilizer Kopria
Gugum Jug Gumi
Gul Rose Yioulia
Guverte Deck of a ship Kouverta
Haber News Haberi
Hali Carpet, rug Hali
Halka Ring Halkas
Hamam Turkish bath Hamami
Hamal Porter Hamalis
Hancer Short sword Hatzari
Hanim Lady Hanoumi-Hanoumissa
Hap Pill Hapi
Harita Map Hartis
Haram Waste, sin Harami
Harem Harem Haremi
Harman Blend Harmani
Hatir For somebody's sake,favor Hatiri
Hava Air, mood Havas
Havyar Caviar Haviar
Havuz Cistern, pool Havuza
Hayvan Animal, beast Haivani
Helva Halva, a desert Halvas
Hendek Ditch Handaki
Hoca Teacher, priest Hotzas
Hora Dance Horos
Horon Dance Horos
Hovarda Extravagant, womanizer Houvardas (Kouvardas)
Huni Funnel Honi
Hurma Date Hurmas
Huy Habit Houi
Huzur State of harmony Houzouri
Ibrik Pot Briki
Ihlamur Linden Tree Flamouri
Imam Muslim priest Imamis
Imam Bayildi A dish Imam Baildi
Irgat Agricultural worker Ergatis
Iskelet Skeleton Skeletos
Ispanak Spinach Spanaki
Iskambil Playing cards Skambili
Iskarpin Shoe Skarpini
Iskandil Sounding lead in guns Skandali
Iskarmoz Oar support Skarmos
Iskarta Defective Skartos
Iskelet Skeleton Skeletos
Iskonto Discount Skonto
Iskorpit A fish Skorpios
Ispinoz Chaffinch Spinos
Istampa Stamp Stampa
Istaka Billiard cue Steka
Istakoz Lobster Astakos
Istavrit A fish Stavritis
Istavroz Cross Stavros
Isteri Hysteria Ysteria
Istridye Oyster Stridi
Izgara Grill Skara
(End of Part I -- to be continued )
Jon Corelis
Esref Eskinat and Paris Tsobanakis are to be commended for their
interesting compilation of words that Greek and Turkish have in common.
Their project for some reason reminded me of a boat I took once from
Mytilini to Ayvalik, which was run jointly by a Greek and Turkish firm
and flew both the Greek and Turkish flags -- a strange, but encouraging,
sight.
I'll be studying the list in preparation for a trip to Greece this
spring -- maybe I'll end up sounding Anatolian!
What about the word dounia? According to my Turkish-English
dictionary, the word in Turkish means "world," and it's found in Greek
in the old rebetika songs, where it's often used in mournful contexts
and almost seems to = "this world of sorrow." I don't know if the word
is still current in Greece (my Greek isn't very good.) The word isn't
in the biggest Greek-English dictionary I have, the Mega Ellino-Agglikon
Lexikon by W. Creighton.
"Dounia" is a very interesting word. I once read a novel set in
India, in which English-speaking Indians were portrayed using the word
"dunya" to mean "world" in the sense of "people with a common profession
or interest" -- for instance, "the film dunya" = "the movie world." If
this is the same word, it's travelled a long way west (is it Sanskrit?)
I notice that dervis/dervisis is on the list. This is also on the
old Greek records, where it means something like "hipster" or "dude,"
with an implication that the person referred to is a hashish smoker. I
don't know if this term is still in common use either, but I recall a
couple of years ago I overheard one old guy in the Peloponnese greeting
another with, "yasou, dervisi mou!" Is this still current slang, or
were these guys remembering the mangas slang of their youth?
["Dervis" is another very interesting word. According to my
Turkish-English dictionary (A Turkish-English Dictionary, by C. Hony,
2nd ed. Oxford 1957) the word originally meant "poor man" or "beggar."
Is the idea that a dervish is a mystic who's given up all the things of
this world?]
As for the request to get the list sorted in Greek word order, just
about any computer programmer ought to be able to do this if given an on
line copy of the file. If they haven't already gotten someone to do
this, they can send me email about it.
Paris and Esref mention that there's apparently no Greek/Turkish
dictionary. I checked an on-line bibliographical data base I have
access to, and found the following reference:
Alexandrides, Demetrios. Lexikon procheiron tes graikikes
kai tourkikes dielektou ... Vienna, 1812.
Though it's old, it still might be of some use. Some large
university libraries might have a copy of this in their special
collections (the citation I found indicated that there's a copy at
UCLA.)
Jon
--
Jon Corelis j...@lindy.stanford.edu
Stanford University BITNET: XB....@FORSYTHE.STANFORD.EDU
Hubey
seem to missing from this Greek/Turkish common vocabulary :-)..
Especially after I saw 'siktir' on the list, I can't just let it go
:-).
How about; Pust/Pushti, Gulampare/Gholampara ??
I think Ibne/Ibni is in there too but I am not sure.
Happy to make a contribution :-)..
--
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hu...@pilot.njin.net | hu...@apollo.montclair.edu | ...!rutgers!njin!hubey
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Ioannis Diakos
"Dounias" is a word that is currently used. May be not as much as "kosmos"
but still everybody knows it.
I went over the list very quickly and I am not sure if I have seen the
word "kaphes" or "kaphenes" (coffee or coffee shop). May be the experts
in Turkish can tell us.
Alas! Even my name has a Turkish translation. Diakos=Diyakos (deacon).
I hope the Turks and particularly Ms Deniz Akkus, who has a tendency to make
historical events from Turkish coffee-shop stories (kouventes tou kapheniou)
(last one was instisting that there wasn't any Greek 2000 years ago),
were not going to claim me as a Turk!!! Well, who knows may be she will claim
that the Turkish people made their appearence before the Christians, so she
can perfecly argue that my name is Turkish!!!
I hope she is not, though, because then I need to explain to all the Cypriots
why the Turkish Army invaded, killed, raped etc in 1974. Probably I can
say to the Cypriots that Turkish army came to rescue the Turkish Cypriots.
Then the Cypriots will ask me if it was neccesary to bombard civilians
with NAPAL bombs, raped so many women that the Greek Orthodox church and
^^^^^^^^
the General Hospital of Nicosia had to reconsider for couple of years abortion
laws and the Turkish Airforce didn't even respect the "crazy" people in
the mental hospital in Athalassa.
And now I will be in trouble because I wouldn't know what to say and because
I am a person who can not lie knowingly, I will have to "shut up".
Ioannis C. Diakos
Deniz Akkus
}Alas! Even my name has a Turkish translation. Diakos=Diyakos (deacon).
}I hope the Turks and particularly Ms Deniz Akkus, who has a tendency to make
}historical events from Turkish coffee-shop stories (kouventes tou kapheniou)
}(last one was instisting that there wasn't any Greek 2000 years ago),
}were not going to claim me as a Turk!!! Well, who knows may be she will claim
}that the Turkish people made their appearence before the Christians, so she
}can perfecly argue that my name is Turkish!!!
Ioannis thanks for acknowledging me as a woman. I feel we are getting
someplace! :-)..
Glad to be at your service as the personification of the ..... Turk. :-)..
(you would know how to fill in the blanks :-).. )
regards
Deniz Akkus dak...@caf.mit.edu
Erdogan Dogdu
> What about the word dounia? According to my Turkish-English
>dictionary, the word in Turkish means "world," and it's found in Greek
>in the old rebetika songs, where it's often used in mournful contexts
>and almost seems to = "this world of sorrow." I don't know if the word
>is still current in Greece (my Greek isn't very good.) The word isn't
>in the biggest Greek-English dictionary I have, the Mega Ellino-Agglikon
>Lexikon by W. Creighton.
>
> "Dounia" is a very interesting word. I once read a novel set in
>India, in which English-speaking Indians were portrayed using the word
>"dunya" to mean "world" in the sense of "people with a common profession
>or interest" -- for instance, "the film dunya" = "the movie world." If
>this is the same word, it's travelled a long way west (is it Sanskrit?)
Yes, we use the word in the same meaning in Turkish, too, "people
with a common profession or interest".
I guess the word "dunya" or "donuia" is originally Arabic.
Arabs use the word as "hayat-ul dunya" means "life in this world".
Actually its real meaning is not exactly "world" in the meaning "earth",I think.
It may mean "the time zone we have been living in" which is another
meaning of the word "dunya" in Turkish. Maybe someone else
whose mother tongue is Arabic can help us. As seen, cultures are all mixed
and have many common words in their languages.
Erdogan Dogdu
Behnam Sadeghi
The words dervish and dunya are both Farsi words. The
meaning of 'dervish' in Farsi, too, is exactly what you
found in the Turkish dictionary.
Behnam Sadeghi
Stavros Macrakis
The list of common words in Greek and Turkish is very interesting. One
way to make it more complete would be to go through a good etymological
dictionary of one language or the other (or both). Of course, this
wouldn't catch words which are common because they come from yet a third
language (e.g. `gol' from the English `goal' (in soccer) or `biftek(i)'
from French `biftek' from English `beefsteak').
Jon Corelis asks about several words which are found well beyond Greece
and Turkey, for instance "dunya" and "dervish". Most of these words are
common to much of the Muslim culture area, and come from Arabic
(`dunya') or Persian (I think `dervish', but I'm not sure). It is not
surprising to find these words in other places in the Muslim sphere
(everywhere from Nigeria to Indonesia).
In the culinary field, you find for instance Gk. kima Tk. kiyma Hindi
keema (minced meat); Serbo-croatian burek, Gk bureki, Tk bu"rek (a
cheese or meat pastry); Gk meze, Tk mezze, Arabic mazza (appetizer)....
Jon mentions an 1812 Greek-Turkish dictionary, I'm sure it's fascinating
for historians, but remember that both languages (especially the written
forms, but also the spoken) have changed enormously since.
As for the word for coffee and coffeehouse, in Greek we have `kafe' and
`kafenio', in Turkish `kahve' and `kavane', for that matter in
Serbo-Croatian `kava' and `kavene'. The word for coffee comes from the
Arabic `qahwah' (which original comes perhaps from some Ethiopian word)
and the ending `-ane' is the Persian `hane' i.e. house or place, as in
Tk. `hastahane' (hospital = hasta (sick) + hane) or chayhane (teahouse =
chay (tea) + hane).
Before I studied Turkish etc., I had always thought that `kafenio' in
Greek came from `kafe' + `io' (as in `koureio' "barbershop"), with some
sort of prosthetic N.... But it turns out that some Greeks do say
`kafenes'.
-s
Stavros Macrakis
Nikos Sahinidis claims to have proven that the Macedonians were Greek
in every way: blood, language, politics. Unlike him, I do not believe
that `blood' and `race' have any relevance to Greekness. I cite the
...the name `Hellenes' suggests no longer a race but an
intelligence, and the title `Hellenes' is applied rather to those
who share our culture than to those who share a common blood.
Panegyricos, 50
(380 BC)
Now let's see what philology tells us about the language of the
ancient Macedonians:
One would have thought that Macedonia, victorious in such an
extraordinary way through Alexander's conquests, would have tried
(as victors generally do) to impose its language on this extensive
Empire: but paradoxical as it may seem, we only know a few words of
Macedonian, and not a single full sentence; we cannot even say that
Macedonian was related to Greek. The reason for this is simple:
from the beginning of the fifth century [BC], Alexander I let
Xerxes' Persian army pass through his territories, but revealed
their order of battle to the Greeks before the battle of Platees;
Archelaos of Macedonia, at the end of the same century, welcomed
artists such as the painter Zeuxis, and it was at his court that
Euripides died. In the time of Philip (father of Alexander), at
least the entire Macedonian aristocracy speaks Greek at Pella, and
all these nobles carry Greek names, like their sovereign:
Aristotle, a Greek from an Ionian colony governed by the Athenian
empire, was chosen as the tutor of his son Alexander who, according
to tradition, always carried the Iliad with him on his campaigns.
Histoire de la Langue Grecque
Jean Humbert (Prof. a la Sorbonne)
Que Sais-Je No. 1483, p. 118, Paris: PUF, 1972
(my translation)
Thus we see that although Greek was increasingly important as the
aristocratic and literary language of Macedonia, the Macedonian
language itself was another story.
As for the quotation that Niko cites from Herodotus, it seems to me to
prove the opposite of what he would like it to prove. Herodotus says:
many people say that the Macedonians are not Greek, but they consider
themselves to be Greek. This is perfectly consistent with the hypothesis
that the Macedonians were a non-Greek speaking people which adopted Greek
as its cultural and literary reference.
This is not an uncommon phenomenon: consider Kabyle vs. Arabic in
Algeria; Breton vs. French; Vlach vs. Greek; Kurdish vs. Turkish. Of
course, in modern times, there is sometimes active resistance to this
process.... Sometimes, it is chosen, sometimes imposed....
As for the etymology of the word `Makedon', who knows? Maybe it IS from
the Greek root MAK (e.g. MHKOS, MAKRHS, ...) (but you still need to
explain the -EDWN part) but etymologies of ethnic and place names are
notoriously slippery. Even if it IS Greek, who says that it was the
Macedonian's word for themselves?
By the way, the other language called Macedonian, namely the Slavic
language spoken in the Yugoslav republic of Makedonja and in small
pockets in Northern Greece, is usually considered by linguists as a
dialect of Bulgarian. As a literary language, it dates to World War
II (Tito and the Jajce meetings). The ancient Macedonian and the
Slavic Macedonian languages have, of course, nothing to do with one
another.
-s
John Vlontzos
>Nikos Sahinidis claims to have proven that the Macedonians were Greek
>in every way: blood, language, politics. Unlike him, I do not believe
>that `blood' and `race' have any relevance to Greekness. I cite the
>
> ...the name `Hellenes' suggests no longer a race but an
> intelligence, and the title `Hellenes' is applied rather to those
> who share our culture than to those who share a common blood.
> Panegyricos, 50
> (380 BC)
>
Although I agree that blood and race have nothing to do with
Greekness, I still have problems with the posters thesis that
there is sufficient evidence to doubt the greekness of Macedonians.
>Thus we see that although Greek was increasingly important as the
>aristocratic and literary language of Macedonia, the Macedonian
>language itself was another story.
>
Where is the proof that a Macedonian language DID exist
since not a single full sentence survives? COuld the fragments
discovered (of which I have no knowledge) be attributed to
local dialect or to expressions borrowed from neighboring peoples?
>As for the quotation that Niko cites from Herodotus, it seems to me to
>prove the opposite of what he would like it to prove. Herodotus says:
>many people say that the Macedonians are not Greek, but they consider
>themselves to be Greek. This is perfectly consistent with the hypothesis
>that the Macedonians were a non-Greek speaking people which adopted Greek
>as its cultural and literary reference.
Accepting the quote from 380BC, regardless of their ethnic origin
since they accepted the Greek language/culture, they were greek.
So where is the problem?
>As for the etymology of the word `Makedon', who knows? Maybe it IS from
>the Greek root MAK (e.g. MHKOS, MAKRHS, ...) (but you still need to
>explain the -EDWN part) but etymologies of ethnic and place names are
>notoriously slippery. Even if it IS Greek, who says that it was the
>Macedonian's word for themselves?
>
The people Achilles led in the Trojan War were called Murmhdones
and as far as I know they lived in Thessaly. No one doubts
their "Greekness" because of their strange name. You can also note
the similar ending of the words (the disparity of "e" and "h" is easily
explained by local dialect differences --similar to Achaian/Ionian
dialect differences-- ) to explain the -edwn part.
I have real trouble understanding the logic of this posting
since it assumes the existence of a language different from greek
when there is no evidence (at least not enough) to support a thesis
that Macedonians were not Greek. In the face of so much evidence
from architecture, burial sites and history I find it very strange
to base an assumption of Macedonian non-"greekness" on a shaky
hypothesis that there existed a different language/culture.
Giannhs Vlontzos
Siemens
Panagiotis Metaxas
Mr. Macrakis,
thanks for the posted translation of Jean Humbert's book, but
I have some trouble to understand its consistency. Is it a whole
paragraph or parts of one?
For example it reads:
One would have thought that Macedonia, victorious in such an
extraordinary way through Alexander's conquests, would have tried
(as victors generally do) to impose its language on this extensive
Empire: but paradoxical as it may seem, we only know a few words of
Macedonian, and not a single full sentence; we cannot even say that
Macedonian was related to Greek.
And immediately after:
The reason for this is simple:
from the beginning of the fifth century [BC], Alexander I let
Xerxes' Persian army pass through his territories, but revealed
their order of battle to the Greeks before the battle of Platees;
Archelaos of Macedonia, at the end of the same century, welcomed
artists such as the painter Zeuxis, and it was at his court that
Euripides died. In the time of Philip (father of Alexander), at
least the entire Macedonian aristocracy speaks Greek at Pella, and
all these nobles carry Greek names, like their sovereign:
Aristotle, a Greek from an Ionian colony governed by the Athenian
empire, was chosen as the tutor of his son Alexander who, according
to tradition, always carried the Iliad with him on his campaigns.
I can't see the "reason" he claims.
The best explanation I can think, is: Ancient Macedonian may not be
a Greek language, but it may be.
Anyway, I have not seen any ancient historian "hinting" that
Ancient Macedonian was a different language.
By the way, Alexander did not try to even impose his own Gods
to the peoples he conquered, not only the language. Is it strange to
assume that language was considered another way of separatism
of the noble people with the rest?
Filika, Takis Metaxas
Nickolaos Sahinidis
SM> (Sorry for the late response, but I was rather busy...)
It's ok! I will repost my previous message so that other
people can follow this discussion, too.
Your following statement is false:
SM> As for the quotation that Niko cites from Herodotus, it seems to me to
SM> prove the opposite of what he would like it to prove. Herodotus says:
SM> many people say that the Macedonians are not Greek, but they consider
SM> themselves to be Greek. This is perfectly consistent with the hypothesis
SM> that the Macedonians were a non-Greek speaking people which adopted Greek
SM> as its cultural and literary reference.
Here is what I cited in my previous message:
.. a. Herodotus (book I, ch.56):
.. 'Macedonians: a name for Dorians in their
.. early settlements near mount Pindos'
.. b. Herodotus (book V, ch.22):
.. 'The Macedonians are Greeks, for two reasons.
.. First, they call themselves Greeks. Second,
.. I (*Herodotus*) will give a proof. When Alexander
.. (*the grandfather of Philip the 2nd*) chose to
.. contest at Olympia, some of the rest of the
.. Greeks made the claim that he was not Greek.
.. But, he gave proofs for his Dorian descent and
.. the Hellenodicai judged that he was indeed a
.. Greek. He participated in the games and
.. "... KAI AGWNIZOMENOS STADION SYNEKSEPIPTE TW PRWTW"'
I fail to understand the consistency of this citation with
your claim that the classic Macedonians were not Greek or
that they were non-Greek speaking. It is pretty obvious
to me that Herodotus PROVES to his readers that the classic
Macedonians were Greeks.
I am tired of answering your questions in a systematic manner,
and receiving in return a set of claims and hypotheses without
any proofs. Please do not continue this discussion for the
sake of discussing only. Can you try to PROVE that the
Macedonians were not Greeks or not-Greek speaking ?
FACTS please !!
Nikos Sahinidis
Carnegie Mellon
kpstamat
>
>
>aristocratic and literary language of Macedonia, the Macedonian
>language itself was another story.
>
>As for the quotation that Niko cites from Herodotus, it seems to me to
>prove the opposite of what he would like it to prove. Herodotus says:
>many people say that the Macedonians are not Greek, but they consider
>themselves to be Greek. This is perfectly consistent with the hypothesis
>that the Macedonians were a non-Greek speaking people which adopted Greek
>as its cultural and literary reference.
>
engineer but I came across some informations recently and I want to
ask your opinion. I bought a book from back home that is a translation
of "Prosocratic Philosophers" by G.S. Kirk-J.E. Raven-M. Schofield
an edition of the culture institute of the National Bank of Greece.
In the first chapter of this book the authors analyze the opinion
of ancient Greeks for the creation of the world (Theogonia).
The main reference in this subject comes from the writings of
Isiodos and Irodotos plus the information that exist in a papuros
that was found in 1962, in Derveni a place close to Thessalonikh.
The tomp where the papyros was found is estimated that was from
500 B.C. The papyros writen in the Greek dialect of dorian the
same the Lakedaimonians used, consists of verses for god
Dionusos and the orfic rituals (orfika musthria) with references
for the creation of the world according to Greeks.
Now my question is how the informations from this papyros
can be related with your claim that the Mecedonians were non-Greek
speaking people? How the Mecedonians wrote in Greek and placed
in their tomps papypros with beliefs of the Greeks in the South?
Please give us some facts not hypothesis.
Konstantinos Stamatakis
Hubey
> One would have thought that Macedonia, victorious in such an
> extraordinary way through Alexander's conquests, would have tried
> (as victors generally do) to impose its language on this extensive
> Empire: but paradoxical as it may seem, we only know a few words of
> Macedonian, and not a single full sentence; we cannot even say that
> Macedonian was related to Greek.
> Filika, Takis Metaxas
I don't really want to get stuck in the middle of who was/is Greek but
it is not paradoxical that the conquerors always do not seem to
be able to impose their language on the conquered.
Jengiz Khan's Turco-Mongols and the other Turco-Mongols before him
like the Juan-Juan were not able to impose their language on The
Chinese. Instead, they became Sinicized. Similarly Jenghiz-Khan's
armies/descendants in Iran became Iranized. The Turkic rulers/emirs
in the Arab lands became Arabicized. The Greeks who conquered Egypt
could not Hellenize it. The Egyptians kept their Coptic language.
The Greek conquerors also could not Hellenize the Semites since they
kept their language.
The Cuman (Turkic) and Circassian rulers of Egypt during the Medieval
Era (i.e. the Mamluks) became Egyptianized (i.e. Arabicized)
Regards
mark
Nickolaos Sahinidis
> I don't really want to get stuck in the middle of who was/is Greek but
> it is not paradoxical that the conquerors always do not seem to
> be able to impose their language on the conquered.
> Jengiz Khan's Turco-Mongols and the other Turco-Mongols before him
> like the Juan-Juan were not able to impose their language on The
> Chinese. Instead, they became Sinicized. Similarly Jenghiz-Khan's
> armies/descendants in Iran became Iranized. The Turkic rulers/emirs
> in the Arab lands became Arabicized. The Greeks who conquered Egypt
> could not Hellenize it. The Egyptians kept their Coptic language.
> The Greek conquerors also could not Hellenize the Semites since they
> kept their language.
> The Cuman (Turkic) and Circassian rulers of Egypt during the Medieval
> Era (i.e. the Mamluks) became Egyptianized (i.e. Arabicized)
There are examples where the conquerors were indeed able
to impose their language on other nations. The Romans were
able to impose their alphabet and a good part of their
language (Latin) to the following people: French, Spanish,
Portoguese, Rumanians, several tribes in the Balcans (Pomacs,
Vlachs etc.), British and probably some others too. On the
other hand, however, they were not able to impose their
alphabet or language to the Greeks.
There is, in my mind, a simple explanation to this "paradox"
(as well as to the other cases that you mentioned). Nations
that did not have an alphabet and a written culture, found
it practical and beneficial to accept one, while their
conquerors found it easy to impose one. Accepting the
conquerors language was a step closer to civilization for
these nations. On the other hand, other nations, the Greeks
for example, would have lost too many things, had they
accepted the Latin alphabet and language. So, they refused
to do so.
A similar argument can be used to explain why, in some cases,
it was the conquerors who accepted the language and culture
of the occupied nations.
Regards,
Nikos Sahinidis, Carnegie Mellon
Stavros Macrakis
a non-Greek language spoken in ancient Macedonia (among other things).
Nikos Sahinidis "proves" that there was no such language. For
detailed discussion, see the Appendices below, where I also reply to
Takis Metaxas, Giannis Vlontzos, and others.
Not being an expert in this field, I must depend on the consensus of
the specialists. I quoted Jean Humbert (a historian of the Greek
language); but other specialists agree. Does Niko know something they
don't know? I am willing to be convinced that the scholarly consensus
has changed. Can he quote a serious modern scholar who believes that
Macedonian was Greek?
Niko himself admits that cultural elements are transmitted from one
people to another: he gives many examples. (He has perhaps forgotten,
on the other hand, that the Greek alphabet comes from the Phoenician
(West Semitic)? and that the Greek Linear B comes from the
undeciphered but apparently non-Greek Linear A? This is surely
embarrassing for his chauvinism. And according to Herodotus (Niko's
favorite reference), many Greek gods are Egyptian.)
I see no reason that this couldn't be the case for ancient Macedonian.
-s
PS I will ignore Niko's sneering tone and pervasive chauvinism.
==== Appendix 1: Niko's claims ====
Niko's arguments are basically that Macedonian culture in Herodotus's
time was heavily Greek (their names, their place-names, their gods,
their art) and they called themselves Greeks.
I agree completely that the Macedonians were heavily Hellenized.
Indeed, I started my posting with a quote from Isokrates which says
that Greekness does not come from blood, but from culture. My quote
from Jean Humbert goes on to describe in detail how Hellenized the
Macedonians were: they loved Greek art, literature, philosophers. But
this does not prove that the original Macedonian language was Greek.
Niko's basic arguments are that the Macedonians were of Greek culture,
and that Herodotus says that they're Greeks:
a. He says that the Macedonians were Greek because their names were
Greek, their placenames were Greek, and their gods were Greek.
If I met someone from Greenville, Liberia named David, who
worships the Christian God from an English-language Bible, and
speaks English, should I conclude that he's English (or is he
Jewish because David is a Hebrew name and the Christian God is
originally the Jewish God?).... David probably speaks a couple of
local languages, but never reads or writes in them.
b. He says that Herodotus says that they are Greeks.
Niko, please read the quote you cited again. Herodotus says "some
of the rest of the Greeks made the claim that he was not Greek".
Now why would they do that? There must have been something about
the Macedonians which was not Greek. Surely they didn't question
the Greekness of the Athenians or the Spartans or the Lesbians....
There must have been some doubt in someone's mind.
Since Niko takes Herodotus as an absolute reference, let's not forget
that Herodotus tells us that many Greek gods came from Egypt.... Does
this prove that the Greeks are Egyptians?
==== Appendix 2: Takis's questions ====
Taki, I too was confused at first by Humbert's text. But I didn't
want to modify it in the translation! It is indeed a continuous text,
which goes: "we cannot even say that Macedonian was related to Greek.
The reason for this is simple...". He goes on to give examples of the
huge importance of Greek culture for the Macedonians. My inter-
pretation is: "we cannot even say that Macedonian was related to
Greek. The reason for this is that the Macedonians admired and
emulated the Greeks to the point that their written culture was all
Greek: for instance, ..."
You mention that no ancient historian hints at the difference of
ancient Macedonian. But Niko's quote does precisely that! Why else
would Greeks doubt that the Macedonians were Greek?
==== Appendix 3: Giannis Vlontzos' points ====
Again, I agree that the Macedonians were heavily Hellenized. They
even considered themselves to be Greek as time went on. This is a
classic phenomenon of assimilation. In modern times, Arvanites,
Vlachs, and Greek Jews consider themselves Greek, too, even though
they have an additional cultural tradition. According to some of the
postings in s.c.t, this is apparently not the case of some (perhaps
only a handful, I have no idea) Thracian Moslems, who may consider
themselves to be Greek citizens, but not Greeks.
As for archaeological evidence, sure their architecture was heavily
Hellenized. And inscriptions cannot show us what people spoke, only
what they wrote. You will find very few Vlach inscriptions in
Metsovo! On the other hand, you will find many Ottoman Turkish
inscriptions in Iraklio (Crete) even though the population was (even
at the peak of Ottoman rule) Greek-speaking in the majority.
ozcanu...@gmail.com
1- μπόι (boy) = boy = height
2— σόι (soy) = soy = ancesters