whats a jolog
Renowl
private schools. It is a pejorative term used to describe the vast majority of
low-income public school fashion victims who hang around SM Mall’s skating
rinks, among other places, without actually putting skates on. The exact
etymology of the word is still unknown though the word Jol is usually
attributed to a teenybopper actress who herself is popular for her unique
fashion sense. Jologs, thus, has been used to refer to the fans of the young
actress, so much so that it has been equated with those studying in the campus
the actress allegedly attends.
A LegManila article even went academic, defining jologs as something that can
be used either as a noun or an adjective, being a complex word with various
nuances. The word, it says, is often used to refer to people in the lower
class, but not necessarily limited to them. It refers to someone without
breeding, equated with being crass, tactless, potty-mouthed, uneducated and
low-life. It also pertains to someone who has poor taste in fashion, music,
movies, etc; or to cheap poseurs and those who make cheap imitation of the
current trends.
So yes, seen this way, jologs may refer to the downtrodden, the former bakya,
the lumpen, the hoi polloi, all these and more. It collectively describes the
unkempt-looking juveniles frequenting the malls wearing bell-bottom pants,
bandanas on their heads, chains hanging from their belts, and trademark
alpombra slippers, hailing from Manila’s slum areas.
Before, there were only its blatant equivalents: baduy, dugyot, skwaking,
skwating, iskwakwa and squatter. Not since coño has there been a label so
infused with class, not since then has a street slang reeked of vindictive
elitism. Commonly, street jargon or kanto words, originate from the mouths of
the economically disadvantaged. The convent schools and the Jesuits apparently
did a fine job in imparting the word’s originators with such linguistic
cunning.
We could have settled for baduy, a word which is more about style and class and
therefore less insulting. Another is bakya, which conjures rural connotations,
and generally means being poor and disadvantaged in the way a peasant or a
farmer is. But jologs is a different thing altogether. It is clearly of urban
origin and it does not refer to poor per se. It does not describe someone as
having a meager net worth. As a synonym for squatter, having nothing as a
socio-economic fact is thrown straight to our face. Jologs are squatters with
nothing to call their own. It’s like saying that since they have no property,
they have no meaning.
Its etymology digs deep into the very debate of urban squatting and reveals how
the youth think of such issues these days. No wonder very few give a damn about
demolitions anymore. Squatters, anyway, have no right to land, to set up their
filthy shabu-infested shanties alongside posh clean subdivisions. Besides, golf
courses are more pleasing to the eye.
Of course, people who use the word jologs would freely say that the term does
not have such far-reaching conno-tations. It only means that someone doesn’t
have any manners, hums the tunes of April Boy and Aegis, listens to 101.9 WRR
(for life!), knows all the soap opera airing in primetime, wears low-waisted
baggy pants, and goes around shouting “punk is not dead” (pronounced pank
es nat ded). No harm done, yeah right.
But looking at it closely, it seems objectionable and politically incorrect to
use the term when referring to the taste and preferences of the masses. And if
you get to the bottom of it, you’ll realize that being jologs is actually
being attuned to the beat of the popular culture of the time. So one can
actually be a jolog for his or her knowledge of trends pertaining to a
particular period of time, not necessarily the present, as well as with the
icons representing a certain generation.
What does it mean to be a jologs? It is to laugh and cry with Esperanza whose
life story very much sounds like our own. It is to settle with Hi-ro cookies
because Oreo costs too much. It is to be fulfilled by mimicking every inch of
our favorite MTV artists’ looks because it boosts our self-esteem. It is to
give in to the itch to decorate every spare millimeter on our jeepneys and
houses with pictures of our idols. It is to be swallowed up in the throes of
unrequited love, especially those expressed in the music of April Boy and Aegis
(Okay, okay, over na).
Why should we be proud of being jologs? Because it means we are the most
resilient and innovative people in this country. We can be contented with fake
armanis and straight from the widescreen pirated versions of the latest movies
mainly because that’s all we can afford.
To be jologs is to be native cheap, to be contented with self-created
substitutes for needs and things that our economic conditions would otherwise
not allow us to enjoy. For as Pierre Bourdieu argues, “it is not only in
music or sport that ordinary people are reduced to the role of the fan, the
militant, the supporter locked in a passionate, even chauvinistic, but passive
and spurious participation which is merely an illusory compensation for
disposession by experts.” A short-skirted SM salesclerk may smile and stand
for 10 hours but what she’ll get at the end of the day won’t buy her the
expensive perfume she’s selling so she has to settle for Johnson’s Baby
Cologne. A garment worker can grow calluses all over her hands sewing Levi’s
jeans but she still has to settle with Lives, its bangketa version.
Dispossession, anyway, is a tacit social relation whereby labor and the product
of labor are presented to the worker as “alienated” labor. They’re so
near yet so far.
Looking at it closely, our culture is one overwhelming “jologs.” The course
of colonization made us borrow from our colonizers everything from their belief
system to their very ethno-linguistic flaws.
I admit I once had this penchant for blurting out coño as often I cursed. I
had no qualms about it then even if I knew it did a great deal of injustice to
the well-off. But the label jologs connotes the base social existence of three
quarters of our people. It is a slap on a hungry child’s face.
Let’s not forget that the components of the putative EDSA 3 were the slipped
urban poor, the sqwaking, the jologs, trucked in as they may have been, paid
even, along with political groups, and allegedly, bottles of gin and shabu. It
was rage and rage against existing class inequality that fueled such a wake-up
call. I wouldn’t want something like that repeating.
The thought alone scares me.
Fox
Philippines. In Spanish it means "cunt". The basic meaning to it is
an insult, or used as an insult. It could be a meaningless word used
in an expression or exclamation. It is also equivalent to "damnit" in
English.
ren...@aol.com (Renowl) wrote in message news:<20040321025506...@mb-m07.aol.com>...
tansong tumbaga
> I find it funny that the word coño means very different in the
> Philippines. In Spanish it means "cunt". The basic meaning to it is
> an insult, or used as an insult. It could be a meaningless word used
> in an expression or exclamation. It is also equivalent to "damnit" in
> English.
>
The word coño was first used by Roces to describe his own gang sort-of,
because they are always after some coño. Among other things, they are
always in cock-fights, horse racing, jai-alai and doing business.
The meaning changed somewhat, but Roces knows what it actually meant, he
speaks Spanish and English fluently.
Just JT
>
> I find it funny that the word coño means very different in the
> Philippines. In Spanish it means "cunt". The basic meaning to it is
> an insult, or used as an insult. It could be a meaningless word used
> in an expression or exclamation. It is also equivalent to "damnit" in
> English.
The word "coño" is indeed a derogatory term for the female privates.
Originally, the "coños" referred to the privileged people of Spanish
extract. Later on, anyone who was privileged and looked some semblance of
Euro blood were the "coños."
Hope this helps,
--
DalubAJologWithSomeEuroExtract
tansong tumbaga
for their illegitimate children, who is not "pure" blooded Spanish(one
quarter only) actually was one of them.
His boss? Andres Soriano the first.
His pay off? when he died truckloads of beer was delivered to my
grandmother's house and she sold them all, during WW2. Of course an
edict that is being followed by even those who took over San Miguel Beer
is that anyone of his grandchildren is to be given assurance of a job,
and only the desperate ones took that...
Only two made money off of it, but they are talented.
Dirty Sick Pig
Fox wrote:
> I find it funny that the word coño means very different in the
> Philippines. In Spanish it means "cunt". The basic meaning to it is
> an insult, or used as an insult. It could be a meaningless word used
> in an expression or exclamation. It is also equivalent to "damnit" in
> English.
In Texas, fruta bomba means papaya; in Cuba it means cunt (chiches in
Texas).
ServePapayaJuiceToFidel Pig
tansong tumbaga
Means pussy-whipped in Colombia.
Sylvia Knörr
"Just JT" <Johnn...@Hotmale.Com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:105v0rf...@news.supernews.com...
> Sabi ni "Fox" <ma...@hotmail.com>:
Considering the natural diversity of Pinoy people, I always find it amazing
that there is so much consciousness for social classes and colors. I used to
think this was a heritage of the Spanish rule, but it seems to root much
deeper.
Undefined Caste Piggy
Just JT
Sabi ni "Sylvia Knörr" <sylvia.kno...@t-online.de>:
>
> Considering the natural diversity of Pinoy people, I always find it
amazing
> that there is so much consciousness for social classes and colors. I used
to
> think this was a heritage of the Spanish rule, but it seems to root much
> deeper.
Social classes have been around even before the Spaniards arrived in PI
shores. Dr. Owen, if he were reading this, might be able to debunk the
authenticity of this historical note. But back in my school days, we were
thought that there three classes of citizens amongst the natives of PI:
- Maharlika (noble peoples)
- Timagua (Commoners)
- Alipin (domestic slaves) - there were two types of alipin: aliping
namamahay can own land and aliping sagigilid can own nothing.
When the Spaniards arrived, of course they liaised with the nobles and they
became the annointed encomenderos (land owners).
The maharlikas, timaguas and alipins are still with us albeit with different
names.
--
DalubAlipingSumisisid
tansong tumbaga
>>The word coño was first used by Roces to describe his own gang sort-of,
>>because they are always after some coño. Among other things, they are
>>The meaning changed somewhat, but Roces knows what it actually meant, he
>>speaks Spanish and English fluently.
>>
>
>
> including) is "Cono su nana!", which in Tagalog is "Puta ang ina mo!", which in
> English is "Your mother is a whore!". I'm not a wasteful person so I send all
> three to kurakot.
>
Some of Roces' friends speak Ilongo(Hiligaynon) and I was surpised at
the amount of Spanish words in the language.
Coño is Spanish for cunt, and a walking cunt is a whore in any language.
tansong tumbaga
The Spaniards created a class system based on skin color and money, dark
skin means the person is "Indio", chinky eyes mean outsider, and white
means upper class, then there's the division among the whites, whether
they are from Spain or born in Philippines.
But of course over-all if there is money in the family, it doesn't
matter much what they do or what they are called, they get accepted
grudgingly.
tansong tumbaga
There is no evidence that such actually exist. Timagua as opposed to
alipins, yes, but maharlika and royalties never actually existed. All of
these is based on historical fraud.
The so-called nobles were nothing more than clan leaders and family heads.
The Muslims had some form of royalty but never was the word "Maharlike"
exist, as you know each and every member of that royalty can be replaced
by any upstart even by any of the alipins.
The alipins,
Aliping mamahay or sagigilid - I cannot find any evidence that such
people exist. Altho' alipins do exist, usually from raided neighboring
islands or settlements and they are allowed to own property. This
practice of capturing people from another island was a practice being
done by South East Asian peoples all the way into the 20th century,
including making slaves out of them.
The code of kalantiaw "defined" the laws concerning all of these that
you posted about, but this has been proven to be a fraudulent piece of
historical data.
Renowl
about ideas to rename filipinos or the philippines maharlika
tansong tumbaga
> marcos liked the word maharlika. i think there were stories once circulating
> about ideas to rename filipinos or the philippines maharlika
His plan is to crown himself King and we vote parliamentary with a prime
minister. The works are already in place, except for a prime minister
and his kingship.
Just JT
Sabi ni "tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito>:
>
> There is no evidence that such actually exist. Timagua as opposed to
> alipins, yes, but maharlika and royalties never actually existed. All of
> these is based on historical fraud.
> The so-called nobles were nothing more than clan leaders and family heads.
> The Muslims had some form of royalty but never was the word "Maharlike"
> exist, as you know each and every member of that royalty can be replaced
> by any upstart even by any of the alipins.
>
> The alipins,
> Aliping mamahay or sagigilid - I cannot find any evidence that such
> people exist. Altho' alipins do exist, usually from raided neighboring
> islands or settlements and they are allowed to own property. This
> practice of capturing people from another island was a practice being
> done by South East Asian peoples all the way into the 20th century,
> including making slaves out of them.
I paraphrase the social classes section of Teodoro Agoncillo's 'History of
the Filipino People', my high school textbook (paragraphing mine for easier
reading):
"Philippine society was divided into three classes: the nobles, the freemen
and the dependents.
"The nobles, consisting of the chiefs and their families, wielded tremendous
influence in the barangay and enjoyed rights that were not usually enjoyed
by the other members of the society. In the Tagalog region, they usually
carried the the title of Gat or Lakán, as in Lakán Dulâ or Gat Maitán.
"Next to the nobles were the freemen, called mahádlikâ by the Tagalogs. They
were composed of free men and likewise of dependents who had earned their
freedom.
"Occupying the lowest stratum were the dependents, known as alipin among the
Tagalogs. A dependent acquired his low status in society by inheritance, by
captivity in war, by failing to pay his debts, by purchase, or by committing
a crime for which he was duly sentenced. It must be noted , however, that
the lines drawn between the classes were not hard; any member of the social
classes could go up or down the social ladder depending upon the attendant
circumstances.
"Among the Tagalogs, the dependents were either aliping namamahay or aliping
sagigilíd. The namamahay had his own family and house and served his master
during planting and harvest seasons, rowed for him, helped in the
construction of his house, and served his visitors. The sagigilíd, on the
other hand, had no property of his own, lived with the master, and could not
even marry without the latter's consent.
"Among the Visayans, dependents were of three kinds: the tumataban, the
tumarampuk, and the ayuey. The first worked for his master when summoned to
do so, the second worked one day for his master; and the third worked three
days for his lord.
"There were gradations among the dependents. The full dependent was the son
or daughter of dependent parents. The half-dependent was the son or daughter
of parents, one of whom was a full dependent and the other a freeman. The
quarter-dependent was the son or daughter of parents, one of whom was a half
dependent and the other a freeman."
A footnote on the term "dependent":
"It has been customary for the Spanish writers and for Filipino writers
influenced by them to classify society into nobles, freemen, and slaves.
Reading carefully the accounts of Antonio de Morga and Juan de Plasencia,
one gets the impression that the so-called slaves were not actually slaves
in the European sense, but dependents. Even today, in some places, such
dependents exist, yet it had not been proper to call them slaves. John Leddy
Phelan, in his book The Hispanization of the Philippines (Madison, 1959), p
20, correctly points out that "To call the pre-Hispanic system of labour
organization slavery, as the Spaniards invariably did, is misleading. The
whole arrangement had much more in common with debt peonage and
share-cropping than it did with the European of chattel slavery."
Are the above accounts historical fraud? I have not seen any formal dispute
of the above accounts. We'd appreciate Dr. Norman Owen's input on this.
>
> The code of kalantiaw "defined" the laws concerning all of these that
> you posted about, but this has been proven to be a fraudulent piece of
> historical data.
------------
From the same book, footnote regarding the Code of Kalantiyaw:
"In a recent study, Professor W. Henry Scott disputed the authenticity of
the Kalantiyaw Code. Cf. A Critical Study of the Prehistoric Materials for
the Study of the Philippines History (Manila, University of Sto. Tomas
Press, 1968, revised 1984)."
--
DalubAlipingMaglilinis
Renowl
accurate 100 percent.
tansong tumbaga
> ------------
> I paraphrase the social classes section of Teodoro Agoncillo's 'History of
> the Filipino People', my high school textbook (paragraphing mine for easier
> reading):
Got the same book, and that is why I would like this to be discussed.
The problem with Filipino historians is that they try to find the
European equivalent to Filipinos class divisions, you cannot compare,
let me explain:
Filipino society is only divided into two classes...
Free men/women and alipin (slaves, more like indentured slaves I might add).
> "The nobles, consisting of the chiefs and their families,
Let me explain how one gets to called Gat, a family gets to be rich and
thereby able to procure better arms, the head of that family who made
good decision becomes Gat, it is not a hereditary position, this is a
tribal "family", a closer examination would reveal that this is more
like a clan. Anyone can be a Gat.
Groups of Gats decides who is strongest and able to gather armies for
thier protection and they choose the wisest and pursuasive, this man who
gets this position is called Lakan. Lakay in Ilokano, today Lakay refers
to the oldest and supposedly the wisest among the family.
A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
they are looking at it with their experience and background.
Any Gat, Datu or whatnot can issue protest and exclude themselves from
any agreements another made, something that Americans and Spaniards are
having difficulties understanding.
>
> "Next to the nobles were the freemen, called mahádlikâ by the Tagalogs. They
> were composed of free men and likewise of dependents who had earned their
> freedom.
These dependents can own properties and can even be richer than their
masters, in fact some have bought their freedom.
>
> "Occupying the lowest stratum were the dependents, known as alipin among the
> Tagalogs. A dependent acquired his low status in society by inheritance, by
> captivity in war, by failing to pay his debts, by purchase, or by committing
> a crime for which he was duly sentenced. It must be noted , however, that
> the lines drawn between the classes were not hard; any member of the social
> classes could go up or down the social ladder depending upon the attendant
> circumstances.
>
One of the issues I tried to raise when someone mentioned that
Pre-Hispanic Filipinos own slaves, it is not the same at all. Traditions
dictates that you can inherit your parent's indebtedness.
I have issues with Agoncillo, much as I admire his research, he fails to
understand the tribal concept of leadership, it is nowhere near the
European concept of "Nobility", it is closer to American Indian
concepts, or tribal groups in the Americas.
You cannot clasify these tribal heads and chieftains as Nobles. See your
own footnote, I have this book as well and kept it as my reference. I
love it but with reservations.
To understand easily how Filipino society was before the Spaniards, all
you have to do is to study how tribal groups in Indonesia is led. The
non-Islamic tribes that is.
Muslims introduced a different form of feudalism, where there is real
hereditary positions, altho' the last Lakan of Manila was Muslim, the
Lakan left the tradition of Tagalogs and Kapampangans intact, he is
after all a foreigner. If he did try to change the tradition, the whole
area would be Muslim. Proof lies in the fact that he has a Muslim name
but did not use it among the people in Manila.
Furthermore, if you look at the Indian (real Indians) traditions, you
would find there are similarities in title names like "Gat", "Datu" and
of course Rajah.
Dirty Sick Pig
Just JT wrote:
ViktorO, being of The Highest Class in Filipino classless society should
contribute to this thread.
Untouchable Pig
Mo Silidonio
I recall the late Senator Eddie Ilarde championing the renaming of the
Philippines to Maharlika or Maharnilad.
Mo Silidonio
> shores. Dr. Owen, if he were reading this, might be able to debunk the
> authenticity of this historical note. But back in my school days, we were
> thought that there three classes of citizens amongst the natives of PI:
>
> - Maharlika (noble peoples)
>
> - Timagua (Commoners)
>
> - Alipin (domestic slaves) - there were two types of alipin: aliping
> namamahay can own land and aliping sagigilid can own nothing.
What about the Hampas-Lupa, Aliping-Kanin, and Palamunin.
Just JT
Sabi ni "tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito>:
>
> Free men/women and alipin (slaves, more like indentured slaves I might
add).
> > "The nobles, consisting of the chiefs and their families,
> Let me explain how one gets to called Gat, a family gets to be rich and
> thereby able to procure better arms, the head of that family who made
> good decision becomes Gat, it is not a hereditary position, this is a
> tribal "family", a closer examination would reveal that this is more
> like a clan. Anyone can be a Gat.
>
> Groups of Gats decides who is strongest and able to gather armies for
> thier protection and they choose the wisest and pursuasive, this man who
> gets this position is called Lakan. Lakay in Ilokano, today Lakay refers
> to the oldest and supposedly the wisest among the family.
>
> A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
> they are looking at it with their experience and background.
>
> Any Gat, Datu or whatnot can issue protest and exclude themselves from
> any agreements another made, something that Americans and Spaniards are
> having difficulties understanding.
But you can't possibly ignore the class distinction between Gat's and
Lakan's from the regular vanilla free dudes. There is a very visible
distinction that noone can miss. Even today, the biggies in society are easy
to distinguish from other peepz: they dress differently, they act
differently and they eat food not available to others. Contrast this in a
typical Aussie society where you can't really tell who's rich or who's poor.
As Agoncillo said, the lines drawn between classes are not hard. But the
classes do exist.
tansong tumbaga
Former radio announcer....
If Tagalogs really did use the word, I still don't know.
tansong tumbaga
European nobles has clear distinction to your average human, all the
rest not of the noblity can be used, abused and thrown away. You cannot
marry below your class altho' it happens.
The so called "nobles" in tribal societies can only be identified by the
tools they use, jeweled axe handles and scythes, implements of farming
and a bit more expensive clothing and burial rite implements. Meaning
they have more money, and that is all.
They still have to farm, or manage their farm(s). They are in every
sense of the word still just another member of the tribe.
Consider also that their children does not inherit their title, they
have to earn it, just like the parents were able to. Very big difference.
Anyway, it doen't mean that Europe did not have this form of feudalism,
they did at one time, but their environment is harsh and the constant
wars, serf/noble system was born in order to afford bigger armies and
bigger towns, tribes no longer exist but nations... it evolved that way.
Europe used to vote for their king, all this as a nation is done where
only a centralized form of autocracy afford to wage huge wars.
Philippines or any part of South East Asia did not have to contend with
in most places, well, not exactly, in mainland south east asia they had
to so they developed kings, like Thailand, Vietnam...etcetera..
Still today Malaysia have datus who gets rotated as kings, they kept the
old form of feudalism introduced by the Muslims and Arabs. But no more
Sultanates.
Philippines never got that sophisticated.
tansong tumbaga
There is an association of PALamunin here in Southern California, they
are a group of Filipinos who don't work, with fake businesses but fed by
their wives who do work...
Just JT
>
> rest not of the noblity can be used, abused and thrown away. You cannot
> marry below your class altho' it happens.
> The so called "nobles" in tribal societies can only be identified by the
> tools they use, jeweled axe handles and scythes, implements of farming
> and a bit more expensive clothing and burial rite implements. Meaning
> they have more money, and that is all.
> They still have to farm, or manage their farm(s). They are in every
> sense of the word still just another member of the tribe.
See, this is the problem with translations. You can't compare Euro nobles
from Flip nobles the same as you can't compare Euro slaves from Flip
"slaves." "Noble" was the best term available in English to describe these
people.
--
DalubLostInTranslation
Mo Silidonio
Radio announcer, narrator of "Kahapon Lamang", host of "Student Canteen".
He was a Senator during Marcos time.
Mo Silidonio
They are otherwise known as "Chemists" as in "Ke Misis Umaasa".
tansong tumbaga
>
> Radio announcer, narrator of "Kahapon Lamang", host of "Student Canteen".
> He was a Senator during Marcos time.
>
>
be balimbing!
tansong tumbaga
It is not the only word, you are highly skilled at this and should know
this word or words, Agoncillo suffers from the same crap as a lot of
Filipino historian, trying hard to "seem" better, when there is no need to.
tansong tumbaga
I got invited once, when I got laid-off.
Renowl
eddie ilarde s napakasakit kuya eddie on the 80s and student canteen.
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:K498c.41951$ah1....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> Just JT wrote:
> > -----------
> > Social classes have been around even before the Spaniards arrived in PI
> > shores. Dr. Owen, if he were reading this, might be able to debunk the
> > authenticity of this historical note. But back in my school days, we
were
> > thought that there three classes of citizens amongst the natives of PI:
> >
> > - Maharlika (noble peoples)
> >
> > - Timagua (Commoners)
> >
> > - Alipin (domestic slaves) - there were two types of alipin: aliping
> > namamahay can own land and aliping sagigilid can own nothing.
> >
> > When the Spaniards arrived, of course they liaised with the nobles and
they
> > became the annointed encomenderos (land owners).
> >
> > The maharlikas, timaguas and alipins are still with us albeit with
different
> > names.
> > --
> > DalubAlipingSumisisid
What means "sumisisid"? Can´t find the root word. :-(
> There is no evidence that such actually exist. Timagua as opposed to
> alipins, yes, but maharlika and royalties never actually existed. All of
> these is based on historical fraud.
> The so-called nobles were nothing more than clan leaders and family heads.
The Filipino societies must have been pretty different from the Spanish
society then. The Spaniards, not aware of those different patterns, EXPECTED
to find nobles, so the clan leaders and family heads were those who came
closest to that concept.
> The code of kalantiaw "defined" the laws concerning all of these that
> you posted about, but this has been proven to be a fraudulent piece of
> historical data.
What is the "Code of Kalantiyaw"?
Codex Manesse Piggy
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Just JT wrote:
>
> > ------------
> > I paraphrase the social classes section of Teodoro Agoncillo's 'History
of
> > the Filipino People', my high school textbook (paragraphing mine for
easier
> > reading):
> Got the same book, and that is why I would like this to be discussed.
> The problem with Filipino historians is that they try to find the
> European equivalent to Filipinos class divisions, you cannot compare,
Could it be that Mr. Agoncillo´s book is a little bit out of date? Anyway,
since books on ethnologic data have been written by Europeans (or people of
Euro descent) in most cases, every society was measured with a European
standard.
> let me explain:
>
> Filipino society is only divided into two classes...
> Free men/women and alipin (slaves, more like indentured slaves I might
add).
> > "The nobles, consisting of the chiefs and their families,
> Let me explain how one gets to called Gat, a family gets to be rich and
> thereby able to procure better arms, the head of that family who made
> good decision becomes Gat, it is not a hereditary position, this is a
> tribal "family", a closer examination would reveal that this is more
> like a clan. Anyone can be a Gat.
>
> Groups of Gats decides who is strongest and able to gather armies for
> thier protection and they choose the wisest and pursuasive, this man who
> gets this position is called Lakan. Lakay in Ilokano, today Lakay refers
> to the oldest and supposedly the wisest among the family.
What you describe is characteristic for a tribal society. Choosing the
wisest person as the head of the group is better than inherited nobility.
Someone who inherits leadership does not necessarily make a good leader.
> A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
> they are looking at it with their experience and background.
Exactly! That´s also the reason that Europeans didn´t realize that some of
the societies they "discovered" were matriarchats.
> Any Gat, Datu or whatnot can issue protest and exclude themselves from
> any agreements another made, something that Americans and Spaniards are
> having difficulties understanding.
What do you mean? Is it like breaking a contract?
> > "Next to the nobles were the freemen, called mahádlikâ by the Tagalogs.
They
> > were composed of free men and likewise of dependents who had earned
their
> > freedom.
> These dependents can own properties and can even be richer than their
> masters, in fact some have bought their freedom.
> > "Occupying the lowest stratum were the dependents, known as alipin among
the
> > Tagalogs. A dependent acquired his low status in society by inheritance,
by
> > captivity in war, by failing to pay his debts, by purchase, or by
committing
> > a crime for which he was duly sentenced. It must be noted , however,
that
> > the lines drawn between the classes were not hard; any member of the
social
> > classes could go up or down the social ladder depending upon the
attendant
> > circumstances.
> One of the issues I tried to raise when someone mentioned that
> Pre-Hispanic Filipinos own slaves, it is not the same at all. Traditions
> dictates that you can inherit your parent's indebtedness.
Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their parents´ debts?
> > From the same book, footnote regarding the Code of Kalantiyaw:
> >
> > "In a recent study, Professor W. Henry Scott disputed the authenticity
of
> > the Kalantiyaw Code. Cf. A Critical Study of the Prehistoric Materials
for
> > the Study of the Philippines History (Manila, University of Sto. Tomas
> > Press, 1968, revised 1984)."
> > --
> > DalubAlipingMaglilinis
> I have issues with Agoncillo, much as I admire his research, he fails to
> understand the tribal concept of leadership, it is nowhere near the
> European concept of "Nobility", it is closer to American Indian
> concepts, or tribal groups in the Americas.
> You cannot clasify these tribal heads and chieftains as Nobles. See your
> own footnote, I have this book as well and kept it as my reference. I
> love it but with reservations.
When did Agoncillo write this book? Before the 70ies? Todays historians and
anthropologists are more careful about Eurocentricity.
But no matter how egalitarian Filipino tribes may have been before the
Spanish era, society must have changed tremendously, and it seems to me that
today there is something like a "Filipino nobility" - defined by wealth and
possession. I think this *is* a Spanish heritage.
European Lumad Piggy
tansong tumbaga
> Could it be that Mr. Agoncillo´s book is a little bit out of date? Anyway,
> since books on ethnologic data have been written by Europeans (or people of
> Euro descent) in most cases, every society was measured with a European
> standard.
>
going to translate the positions in the society, intellectually, this
would be a challenge.
one is how are you going to answer someone who asks the question:
"What do you call the serfs in your country?"
What if you don't have serfs? Or nobles, although you have some kind of
king and community leaders who are just part of the actual community?
What is interesting is that in 1974 I was actually asked that question,
and I had to answer in terms that I understood it, the man just shook
his head and also could not understand how a country could have a
society where there are no nobles and no classes, well, there is that
social division of course but not in the same way as Europeans has.
To top it all of, there is this class division left over from the
colonial days and modern terms of classes based on money.
Traditionally, the division is based upon skill, money and intellectual
skill. What is interesting is this:
Is there anyone here knows the real for in any Filipino language for
FREEDOM? I did some thinking, which is rare I admit, the word Kalayaan
and malaya or laya for that matter is a made up word by the Katipunan,
and it was taken from a word that has a different meaning.
A challenge for you: Find it, a language professor in UP has challenged
my friends about finding it.
>
> What you describe is characteristic for a tribal society. Choosing the
> wisest person as the head of the group is better than inherited nobility.
> Someone who inherits leadership does not necessarily make a good leader.
>
Because Filipinos before the coming of the Spaniards are tribal society,
and most still think in this manner, altho' the tribal society is gone.
>
>>A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
>>they are looking at it with their experience and background.
>
>
> Exactly! That´s also the reason that Europeans didn´t realize that some of
> the societies they "discovered" were matriarchats.
>
There are some who studied the tribes in Indonesia kind of hinted that
it seems to be matriarchial, very anthropological studies were made of
Philippine societies, now there are but it is kind of late when the
society is changing inti this more modern ways.
>
>>Any Gat, Datu or whatnot can issue protest and exclude themselves from
>>any agreements another made, something that Americans and Spaniards are
>>having difficulties understanding.
>
>
> What do you mean? Is it like breaking a contract?
>
Spaniards, Dutch, British and Americans have made treaties with tribes
or Sultans and is always surprised that some would not follow the
treaties. One prime example is the treaty between the Tausugs and
Americans, they are smart enough to include other tribes in outlying
areas but without the other tribes agreeing to it.
There is always the complaint that Filipinos are not true to their word,
but his is not the case, the problem is that tribes are composed of
clans and some clans just decided to on their own. This lesson is not
understood by the Americans, the fact that there is no centralized form
of government among the tribes, they should've realized this dealing
with the American Indians, but they didn't.
>
> Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their parents´ debts?
>
yes, that is unfortunate but it is like that, some of our traditions did
come from India via some other Austronesian groups.
>
>>>From the same book, footnote regarding the Code of Kalantiyaw:
>>>
>>>"In a recent study, Professor W. Henry Scott disputed the authenticity
>
> of
>
>>>the Kalantiyaw Code. Cf. A Critical Study of the Prehistoric Materials
>
> for
>
>>>the Study of the Philippines History (Manila, University of Sto. Tomas
>>>Press, 1968, revised 1984)."
>>>--
>>>DalubAlipingMaglilinis
>
>
>
>>I have issues with Agoncillo, much as I admire his research, he fails to
>>understand the tribal concept of leadership, it is nowhere near the
>>European concept of "Nobility", it is closer to American Indian
>>concepts, or tribal groups in the Americas.
>>You cannot clasify these tribal heads and chieftains as Nobles. See your
>>own footnote, I have this book as well and kept it as my reference. I
>>love it but with reservations.
>
>
>
> When did Agoncillo write this book? Before the 70ies? Todays historians and
> anthropologists are more careful about Eurocentricity.
>
First edition was 1960, there are better books but not as comprehensive.
Someday there will be...but it would be difficult to convince the
government to accept it as a textbook. Agoncillo is well respected, and
I understnad why, he worked hard to create this book, and he researched
a lot of it. Unlike most Filipino historians after him who just compiles
other people's work including his and make it into a book.
There are professors and other historians nowadays changing these, but
it is not an easy thing to do, without discrediting anybody.
> But no matter how egalitarian Filipino tribes may have been before the
> Spanish era, society must have changed tremendously, and it seems to me that
> today there is something like a "Filipino nobility" - defined by wealth and
> possession. I think this *is* a Spanish heritage.
>
> European Lumad Piggy
>
>
It is of Spanish heritage.
tansong tumbaga
> "tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:K498c.41951$ah1....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
>
>>Just JT wrote:
>>
>>>-----------
>>>Social classes have been around even before the Spaniards arrived in PI
>>>shores. Dr. Owen, if he were reading this, might be able to debunk the
>>>authenticity of this historical note. But back in my school days, we
>
> were
>
>>>thought that there three classes of citizens amongst the natives of PI:
>>>
>>>- Maharlika (noble peoples)
>>>
>>>- Timagua (Commoners)
>>>
>>>- Alipin (domestic slaves) - there were two types of alipin: aliping
>>>namamahay can own land and aliping sagigilid can own nothing.
>>>
>>>When the Spaniards arrived, of course they liaised with the nobles and
>
> they
>
>>>became the annointed encomenderos (land owners).
>>>
>>>The maharlikas, timaguas and alipins are still with us albeit with
>
> different
>
>>>names.
>>>--
>>>DalubAlipingSumisisid
>
>
>
> What means "sumisisid"? Can´t find the root word. :-(
>
Sisid is the root word.
>
>>There is no evidence that such actually exist. Timagua as opposed to
>>alipins, yes, but maharlika and royalties never actually existed. All of
>>these is based on historical fraud.
>>The so-called nobles were nothing more than clan leaders and family heads.
>
>
> The Filipino societies must have been pretty different from the Spanish
> society then. The Spaniards, not aware of those different patterns, EXPECTED
> to find nobles, so the clan leaders and family heads were those who came
> closest to that concept.
>
>
>
>>The code of kalantiaw "defined" the laws concerning all of these that
>>you posted about, but this has been proven to be a fraudulent piece of
>>historical data.
>
>
>
> What is the "Code of Kalantiyaw"?
>
> Codex Manesse Piggy
>
>
Code of Kalantiaw is a hoax where a respected historian was toying with
and his son published it as an authentic document, everyone jumped on it
and lauded it as an important find as important as the code of
Hammurabi. Later on the son of this historian admitted that he just took
a piece of doodle of his father, something his father was playing with
if the old Philippine society is still in existence, his imagination is
rich with what that laws could be. An imaginary Datu named Kalantiaw.
I can't find anything about "Maharlika", not in any Austronesian languages.
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> > Could it be that Mr. Agoncillo´s book is a little bit out of date?
Anyway,
> > since books on ethnologic data have been written by Europeans (or people
of
> > Euro descent) in most cases, every society was measured with a European
> > standard.
> It is actually more like the conclusion of this discussion, how are you
> going to translate the positions in the society, intellectually, this
> would be a challenge.
> one is how are you going to answer someone who asks the question:
> "What do you call the serfs in your country?"
> What if you don't have serfs? Or nobles, although you have some kind of
> king and community leaders who are just part of the actual community?
This is always the problem when very different societies meet. The words,
laws and values of one society just don´t fit for the other society. (The
Sapir-Whorf-Hypothesis comes into picture, hehe)
You can watch this in many ways. For example: When the Romans built the
Latin alphabet (derived from the Greek alphabet) it was perfect for Latin
language, there was one letter for every sound. But when Romans taught other
peoples to write, the letter-sound relation did not fit anymore. Now in
German or English language we have sounds without a letter and letters with
no or multiple sounds (like k or c). Or in Tagalog, the letter F (in the
first place) was useless, but you have no letter for the NG-sound.
The same goes for the "institutions" of society, like kings or slaves,
warriors or priests etc - not EVERY society has them, and IF they have them,
the role they play in public life often is not the same.
> What is interesting is that in 1974 I was actually asked that question,
> and I had to answer in terms that I understood it, the man just shook
> his head and also could not understand how a country could have a
> society where there are no nobles and no classes, well, there is that
> social division of course but not in the same way as Europeans has.
Someone who never lived within a differently structured society can´t figure
what it´s like.
> To top it all of, there is this class division left over from the
> colonial days and modern terms of classes based on money.
Yes, that is what Westerners observe, because this pattern they can
recognize rather than the tribal patterns.
> Traditionally, the division is based upon skill, money and intellectual
> skill. What is interesting is this:
>
> Is there anyone here knows the real for in any Filipino language for
> FREEDOM? I did some thinking, which is rare I admit, the word Kalayaan
> and malaya or laya for that matter is a made up word by the Katipunan,
> and it was taken from a word that has a different meaning.
>
> A challenge for you: Find it, a language professor in UP has challenged
> my friends about finding it.
Uh, that´s definitely an EXPERT question and not for me. But taking a look
at my dictionary, there are some words that seem to be related, like
"lumayas - to run away" or "layò -far, distant". Maybe the meaning of "layà"
shifted from something like "detatched" to "free".
Some Tagalog especialista please enlighten me! :-)
> > What you describe is characteristic for a tribal society. Choosing the
> > wisest person as the head of the group is better than inherited
nobility.
> > Someone who inherits leadership does not necessarily make a good leader.
> Because Filipinos before the coming of the Spaniards are tribal society,
> and most still think in this manner, altho' the tribal society is gone.
Although, looking on presidential elections, it is not clearly to be seen
that Filipinos choose the most skilled person! :-))
> >>A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
> >>they are looking at it with their experience and background.
> > Exactly! That´s also the reason that Europeans didn´t realize that some
of
> > the societies they "discovered" were matriarchats.
> There are some who studied the tribes in Indonesia kind of hinted that
> it seems to be matriarchial, very anthropological studies were made of
> Philippine societies, now there are but it is kind of late when the
> society is changing inti this more modern ways.
Yes, it´s late, it is more a reconstruction. Matriarchats can´t survive in a
modern complex society, they only work for tribes and clans. Some of the
Lumads may still have it.
> >>Any Gat, Datu or whatnot can issue protest and exclude themselves from
> >>any agreements another made, something that Americans and Spaniards are
> >>having difficulties understanding.
> > What do you mean? Is it like breaking a contract?
> Spaniards, Dutch, British and Americans have made treaties with tribes
> or Sultans and is always surprised that some would not follow the
> treaties. One prime example is the treaty between the Tausugs and
> Americans, they are smart enough to include other tribes in outlying
> areas but without the other tribes agreeing to it.
> There is always the complaint that Filipinos are not true to their word,
> but his is not the case, the problem is that tribes are composed of
> clans and some clans just decided to on their own. This lesson is not
> understood by the Americans, the fact that there is no centralized form
> of government among the tribes, they should've realized this dealing
> with the American Indians, but they didn't.
Ah, classic misunderstanding between incombatible society patterns.
> > Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their parents´
debts?
> yes, that is unfortunate but it is like that, some of our traditions did
> come from India via some other Austronesian groups.
Is this still practiced in the Philippines?
> >>I have issues with Agoncillo, much as I admire his research, he fails to
> >>understand the tribal concept of leadership, it is nowhere near the
> >>European concept of "Nobility", it is closer to American Indian
> >>concepts, or tribal groups in the Americas.
> >>You cannot clasify these tribal heads and chieftains as Nobles. See your
> >>own footnote, I have this book as well and kept it as my reference. I
> >>love it but with reservations.
> > When did Agoncillo write this book? Before the 70ies? Todays historians
and
> > anthropologists are more careful about Eurocentricity.
> First edition was 1960, there are better books but not as comprehensive.
> Someday there will be...but it would be difficult to convince the
> government to accept it as a textbook. Agoncillo is well respected, and
> I understnad why, he worked hard to create this book, and he researched
> a lot of it. Unlike most Filipino historians after him who just compiles
> other people's work including his and make it into a book.
> There are professors and other historians nowadays changing these, but
> it is not an easy thing to do, without discrediting anybody.
Considering the complicated patchwork of Filipino history, it can´t be easy
to write a profound AND comprehensive book which is NOT eurocentric.
Mission Impossible Piggy
tansong tumbaga
>>It is actually more like the conclusion of this discussion, how are you
>>going to translate the positions in the society, intellectually, this
>>would be a challenge.
>>one is how are you going to answer someone who asks the question:
>>"What do you call the serfs in your country?"
>>What if you don't have serfs? Or nobles, although you have some kind of
>>king and community leaders who are just part of the actual community?
>
>
> This is always the problem when very different societies meet. The words,
> laws and values of one society just don´t fit for the other society. (The
> Sapir-Whorf-Hypothesis comes into picture, hehe)
> You can watch this in many ways. For example: When the Romans built the
> Latin alphabet (derived from the Greek alphabet) it was perfect for Latin
> language, there was one letter for every sound. But when Romans taught other
> peoples to write, the letter-sound relation did not fit anymore. Now in
> German or English language we have sounds without a letter and letters with
> no or multiple sounds (like k or c). Or in Tagalog, the letter F (in the
> first place) was useless, but you have no letter for the NG-sound.
> The same goes for the "institutions" of society, like kings or slaves,
> warriors or priests etc - not EVERY society has them, and IF they have them,
> the role they play in public life often is not the same.
>
arrived the structure of the society is tribal, and war like, like
Philippines. At the time, even the French (Franks) consider themselves
Germanic.
It would be interesting to know how society was like before Romans came
in and conquered Northern Europe.
>
>>What is interesting is that in 1974 I was actually asked that question,
>>and I had to answer in terms that I understood it, the man just shook
>>his head and also could not understand how a country could have a
>>society where there are no nobles and no classes, well, there is that
>>social division of course but not in the same way as Europeans has.
>
>
> Someone who never lived within a differently structured society can´t figure
> what it´s like.
>
>
>>To top it all of, there is this class division left over from the
>>colonial days and modern terms of classes based on money.
>
>
> Yes, that is what Westerners observe, because this pattern they can
> recognize rather than the tribal patterns.
>
>
>>Traditionally, the division is based upon skill, money and intellectual
>>skill. What is interesting is this:
>>
>>Is there anyone here knows the real for in any Filipino language for
>>FREEDOM? I did some thinking, which is rare I admit, the word Kalayaan
>>and malaya or laya for that matter is a made up word by the Katipunan,
>>and it was taken from a word that has a different meaning.
>>
>>A challenge for you: Find it, a language professor in UP has challenged
>>my friends about finding it.
>
>
> Uh, that´s definitely an EXPERT question and not for me. But taking a look
> at my dictionary, there are some words that seem to be related, like
> "lumayas - to run away" or "layò -far, distant". Maybe the meaning of "layà"
> shifted from something like "detatched" to "free".
> Some Tagalog especialista please enlighten me! :-)
>
That sounds like the same thing we did, started coming up with the same
exact words, layas, layo, ... imagine a people who doesn't have a
concept of salvery must not have a concept of freedom as well. Or it
could be the reverse, an enslaved people would not have that concept as
well.
>
>>>What you describe is characteristic for a tribal society. Choosing the
>>>wisest person as the head of the group is better than inherited
>
> nobility.
>
>>>Someone who inherits leadership does not necessarily make a good leader.
>
>
>>Because Filipinos before the coming of the Spaniards are tribal society,
>>and most still think in this manner, altho' the tribal society is gone.
>
>
> Although, looking on presidential elections, it is not clearly to be seen
> that Filipinos choose the most skilled person! :-))
>
You will notice, like I did (should you decide to go there) that
Filipinos in general are more concerned about local elections than
national, in fact most violence happens on that level.
Unfortunately, the first casualty of such local election violence was
the most admired female candidate.
>
>>>>A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
>>>>they are looking at it with their experience and background.
>
>
>>>Exactly! That´s also the reason that Europeans didn´t realize that some
>
> of
>
>>>the societies they "discovered" were matriarchats.
>
>
>>There are some who studied the tribes in Indonesia kind of hinted that
>>it seems to be matriarchial, very anthropological studies were made of
>>Philippine societies, now there are but it is kind of late when the
>>society is changing inti this more modern ways.
>
>
> Yes, it´s late, it is more a reconstruction. Matriarchats can´t survive in a
> modern complex society, they only work for tribes and clans. Some of the
> Lumads may still have it.
>
They do, this is what is amazing, the lumads are the only ones who
Filipinos may have been at one time... typing too fast, also messes up
my English...
Some vestiges of that society survives in the modern Filipino, like
everyman knows who is the BOSS.
>
>>Spaniards, Dutch, British and Americans have made treaties with tribes
>>or Sultans and is always surprised that some would not follow the
>>treaties. One prime example is the treaty between the Tausugs and
>>Americans, they are smart enough to include other tribes in outlying
>>areas but without the other tribes agreeing to it.
>>There is always the complaint that Filipinos are not true to their word,
>>but his is not the case, the problem is that tribes are composed of
>>clans and some clans just decided to on their own. This lesson is not
>>understood by the Americans, the fact that there is no centralized form
>>of government among the tribes, they should've realized this dealing
>>with the American Indians, but they didn't.
>
>
> Ah, classic misunderstanding between incombatible society patterns.
>
Oh yes..
>
>>>Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their parents´
>
> debts?
>
>
>>yes, that is unfortunate but it is like that, some of our traditions did
>>come from India via some other Austronesian groups.
>
>
> Is this still practiced in the Philippines?
>
If the person moves, there isn't that chance to pay up anymore. And that
is easier to do. But some aspects of this still exist, in terms of
"utang na loob" it is still a heavy burden for some.
>
>
>>First edition was 1960, there are better books but not as comprehensive.
>>Someday there will be...but it would be difficult to convince the
>>government to accept it as a textbook. Agoncillo is well respected, and
>>I understnad why, he worked hard to create this book, and he researched
>>a lot of it. Unlike most Filipino historians after him who just compiles
>>other people's work including his and make it into a book.
>>There are professors and other historians nowadays changing these, but
>>it is not an easy thing to do, without discrediting anybody.
>
>
> Considering the complicated patchwork of Filipino history, it can´t be easy
> to write a profound AND comprehensive book which is NOT eurocentric.
>
> Mission Impossible Piggy
>
>
It is not impossible, but it is a big job. Teodoro Agoncillo did a
magnificent job, and he deserves a lot for his accomplishments.
It is complicated, to find out especially that some influences that
Filipino would think as Spanish isn't at all, some I am finding out to
be Portuguese (because of the friars), or it might be Basque...
A patchwork indeed.
Dirty Sick Pig
Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> What means "sumisisid"? Can´t find the root word. :-(
Literally, it is the act of diving underwater. I myself dive for
pearls, but not underwater.
> What is the "Code of Kalantiyaw"?
It is a moral code, and one of its enduring tenets is "two eyes for one
eye, two teeth for a tooth." Also, "When slapped on a cheek, turn your
bare buttocks to thy slapper, one cheek at a time."
I like it.
> Codex Manesse Piggy
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> > This is always the problem when very different societies meet. The
words,
> > laws and values of one society just don´t fit for the other society.
(The
> > Sapir-Whorf-Hypothesis comes into picture, hehe)
> > You can watch this in many ways. For example: When the Romans built the
> > Latin alphabet (derived from the Greek alphabet) it was perfect for
Latin
> > language, there was one letter for every sound. But when Romans taught
other
> > peoples to write, the letter-sound relation did not fit anymore. Now in
> > German or English language we have sounds without a letter and letters
with
> > no or multiple sounds (like k or c). Or in Tagalog, the letter F (in the
> > first place) was useless, but you have no letter for the NG-sound.
> > The same goes for the "institutions" of society, like kings or slaves,
> > warriors or priests etc - not EVERY society has them, and IF they have
them,
> > the role they play in public life often is not the same.
> I'll bet the Germans gave them the most difficulty. When the ROmans
> arrived the structure of the society is tribal, and war like, like
> Philippines. At the time, even the French (Franks) consider themselves
> Germanic.
Oh, I think it wasn´t a problem for the Romans. It was a problem for the
Germans, Franks etc! Usually the conqueror doesn´t bother too much about the
conquered people´s affairs. Did the Spaniards care about the Pinoy psyche
and social patterns? Nah, all they needed to know is "who is the person of
influence? We need to get him /her under control!"
> It would be interesting to know how society was like before Romans came
> in and conquered Northern Europe.
Well, it must have been tribal life, quite similar to the pre-colonial
Filipino peoples, but certainly tougher. (Cold climate people are tougher
than tropical people) Religion was animistic. There are some Roman
descriptions (Tacitus and Julius Caesar), they considered the Germans
barbaric savages. From the Roman point of view, I guess they were right!
:-))
> >>Traditionally, the division is based upon skill, money and intellectual
> >>skill. What is interesting is this:
> >>
> >>Is there anyone here knows the real for in any Filipino language for
> >>FREEDOM? I did some thinking, which is rare I admit, the word Kalayaan
> >>and malaya or laya for that matter is a made up word by the Katipunan,
> >>and it was taken from a word that has a different meaning.
> >>
> >>A challenge for you: Find it, a language professor in UP has challenged
> >>my friends about finding it.
> > Uh, that´s definitely an EXPERT question and not for me. But taking a
look
> > at my dictionary, there are some words that seem to be related, like
> > "lumayas - to run away" or "layò -far, distant". Maybe the meaning of
"layà"
> > shifted from something like "detatched" to "free".
> > Some Tagalog especialista please enlighten me! :-)
> That sounds like the same thing we did, started coming up with the same
> exact words, layas, layo, ... imagine a people who doesn't have a
> concept of salvery must not have a concept of freedom as well. Or it
> could be the reverse, an enslaved people would not have that concept as
> well.
Yes, it´s hard to talk about something when you have no concept of it in the
first place. But you said that it was not uncommon for Filipinos to take
captives in tribal wars. Doesn´t that mean there WAS a concept of captivity
and hence, freedom?
> >>Because Filipinos before the coming of the Spaniards are tribal society,
> >>and most still think in this manner, altho' the tribal society is gone.
> > Although, looking on presidential elections, it is not clearly to be
seen
> > that Filipinos choose the most skilled person! :-))
> You will notice, like I did (should you decide to go there) that
> Filipinos in general are more concerned about local elections than
> national, in fact most violence happens on that level.
I see. The local level is more suitable to a Filipino´s nature which depends
on personal interaction, like in an extended family.
> Unfortunately, the first casualty of such local election violence was
> the most admired female candidate.
Who do you mean?
> >>There are some who studied the tribes in Indonesia kind of hinted that
> >>it seems to be matriarchial, very anthropological studies were made of
> >>Philippine societies, now there are but it is kind of late when the
> >>society is changing inti this more modern ways.
> > Yes, it´s late, it is more a reconstruction. Matriarchats can´t survive
in a
> > modern complex society, they only work for tribes and clans. Some of the
> > Lumads may still have it.
> They do, this is what is amazing, the lumads are the only ones who
> Filipinos may have been at one time... typing too fast, also messes up
> my English...
> Some vestiges of that society survives in the modern Filipino, like
> everyman knows who is the BOSS.
Maybe that is one reason why modern Filipinos are so full of contradictions.
Caught between tribal heritage (which doesn´t work in a western style
democracy) and modern urban life (which doesn´t go well will the old family
ties).
> >>>Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their parents´
> > debts?
> >>yes, that is unfortunate but it is like that, some of our traditions did
> >>come from India via some other Austronesian groups.
> > Is this still practiced in the Philippines?
> If the person moves, there isn't that chance to pay up anymore. And that
> is easier to do. But some aspects of this still exist, in terms of
> "utang na loob" it is still a heavy burden for some.
Would it mean that if a father owes another man a favour and dies, that the
child owes this man a favour?
> >>First edition was 1960, there are better books but not as comprehensive.
> >>Someday there will be...but it would be difficult to convince the
> >>government to accept it as a textbook. Agoncillo is well respected, and
> >>I understnad why, he worked hard to create this book, and he researched
> >>a lot of it. Unlike most Filipino historians after him who just compiles
> >>other people's work including his and make it into a book.
> >>There are professors and other historians nowadays changing these, but
> >>it is not an easy thing to do, without discrediting anybody.
> > Considering the complicated patchwork of Filipino history, it can´t be
easy
> > to write a profound AND comprehensive book which is NOT eurocentric.
> It is not impossible, but it is a big job. Teodoro Agoncillo did a
> magnificent job, and he deserves a lot for his accomplishments.
>
> It is complicated, to find out especially that some influences that
> Filipino would think as Spanish isn't at all, some I am finding out to
> be Portuguese (because of the friars), or it might be Basque...
>
> A patchwork indeed.
There are so many different tribes and nations involved, and they all
interacted. What makes it worse is that most written data are from
Europeans, not Filipinos. And the Philippines have not only a hard time to
discover their past, but a hard time to be prepared for the future also.
There is an analogy of history and geology: Placed at the interference zone
of tectonic plates, the Philippines are torn by tremendous forces. Like they
are placed between past and future...
Constant Change Piggy
Sylvia Knörr
"Dirty Sick Pig" <DrtyS...@Hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:AQ5ac.126643$u_5....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
>
> > What means "sumisisid"? Can´t find the root word. :-(
> Literally, it is the act of diving underwater. I myself dive for
> pearls, but not underwater.
Oh, I remember. You do it in a pool of liquid chocolate, right?
> > What is the "Code of Kalantiyaw"?
> It is a moral code, and one of its enduring tenets is "two eyes for one
> eye, two teeth for a tooth." Also, "When slapped on a cheek, turn your
> bare buttocks to thy slapper, one cheek at a time."
>
> I like it.
Sure you like it, especially the buttocks part, no? :-))
BTW, this makes me wonder what attitude Filipinos have towards vengeance. Is
there such a thing as vendetta among Filipinos? (I don´t think so).
My guess is that Filipinos belong more to the "Turn the other cheek" type
than the "Eye for an eye" type. Please tell me if I´m wrong!
Revenge Is Blutwurst Piggy
tansong tumbaga
>
>>I'll bet the Germans gave them the most difficulty. When the ROmans
>>arrived the structure of the society is tribal, and war like, like
>>Philippines. At the time, even the French (Franks) consider themselves
>>Germanic.
>
>
> Oh, I think it wasn´t a problem for the Romans. It was a problem for the
> Germans, Franks etc! Usually the conqueror doesn´t bother too much about the
> conquered people´s affairs. Did the Spaniards care about the Pinoy psyche
> and social patterns? Nah, all they needed to know is "who is the person of
> influence? We need to get him /her under control!"
>
Germany? Or is it like in the Philippines as far as pre-Hispanic records?
>
>>It would be interesting to know how society was like before Romans came
>>in and conquered Northern Europe.
>
>
> Well, it must have been tribal life, quite similar to the pre-colonial
> Filipino peoples, but certainly tougher. (Cold climate people are tougher
> than tropical people) Religion was animistic. There are some Roman
> descriptions (Tacitus and Julius Caesar), they considered the Germans
> barbaric savages. From the Roman point of view, I guess they were right!
> :-))
>
family, the way it was when a Gat to a name is conferred. Like in my
wife's hometown for example, the mayor had always been one of her
cousin, left, right and center.
>
>>Unfortunately, the first casualty of such local election violence was
>>the most admired female candidate.
>
>
> Who do you mean?
>
vice-mayor was gunned down. She is the most popular because she really
works for the people in her town. The military doesn't like her because
she has the backing of masses and the left. Her records shows that she
only comprimeses and works for the majority, ensuring their rights
aren't trampled especially the farmers.
http://www.inq7.net/opi/2004/feb/17/opi_editorial-1.htm
The whole family that benefitted from that favor owes it, it is like
getting a new member of the family. Owing favor goes a long way for
payment. A lot longer than the actual original favor, don't know why.
It isn't easy, when Americans arrived they made their own mark. Add to
that as well.
tansong tumbaga
Revenge cuts deep among some families. Not everywhere though.
Just JT
>
> this word or words, Agoncillo suffers from the same crap as a lot of
> Filipino historian, trying hard to "seem" better, when there is no need
to.
I think you're being too harsh on Professor Agoncillo. He published this
book in fifties when political correctness was not in vogue. Words such as
"Mohammedanism" and "mulatto" were accepted words back then.
Let us not judge the people of the past with the values of the present.
--
DalubAJanitorNotAJudge
tansong tumbaga
been able to do the most comprehensive research that he did. In fact if
one has to write (or rewrite) Philippine history would have to study
him, there is no way around it.
Besides, it is not those words that bothers me. It is the way he looked
at Philippine history, from the point of view of a foreigner.
Unfortunately, this is how Filipinos were taught (It was thought once
even during the 60s and 70s that we should do this to be objective,
however, that loses the point of view of understanding what Filipino
was, and explain it a little better), I should not blame him for that.
Especially since I know that he was the first Filipino historian to
actually do research on pre-Hispanic Philippines and recorded it.
Before him, Philippine history has been written by non-Filipino.
I devoured this book when I was in school, including Zaide<whose preface
floored me, saying that "We should look why history favors an industrial
nation"...etc... very colonial views, at the time colonial mentality as
word coinage hasn't reach the Philippine public's psyche, you can feel
it on this preface>...
I always loved history, right from the start. I devoured every history
book in our house(American history mostly since my dad was American).
When I went to high school, my brother and I have discussed plenty of
subjects with our teachers about history, my grades never slipped below
99% in this class. And Zaide had always been my favorite target to
complain about, he is unabashedly pro-American in what he wrote, instead
of being objective.
Agoncillo at least is a lot more objective, and Zaide quotes him. Zaide
didn't like the way Agoncillo presented history because he is not
pro-this or that. He just have the tendency to give Filipinos the same
"look" as European or American, Filipinos as a people was never like
them. Filipinos are closer to the earth in the sense that everywhere he
goes, he murmurs "excuse me" to the rocks, trees and spirits.
Animists in everyway, even the Muslim Filipinos are like that, believe
me, I grew up with Muslim friends and relatives.
Zaide in turn, like the essay he wrote as to why the US won against
Spain and took over the Philippines, I forgot what the title was,
because of Industry, the most industrial nation always win... odd, I
arrived in the US and found that only a small percentage of the US is
actually industrial, it is mostly agricultural just like Spain and
Philippines! His reasoning is stupid.
Norman G. Owen
My name having been invoked (by you) in another thread, I return to this
one, which I had missed, since it was long and appeared (originally) to
be all about the term "jolog." I've also been weighed down with
teaching - it seems unfair that in return for my substantial salary
(soon to cease) they actually expect me to _work_ for it, but there we
are ...
Comments are interspersed and follow:
Sylvia Knörr wrote:
>
> "tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:cIN9c.30157$HM4....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
> > Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> > > Could it be that Mr. Agoncillo´s book is a little bit out of date?
> Anyway,
> > > since books on ethnologic data have been written by Europeans (or people
> of
> > > Euro descent) in most cases, every society was measured with a European
> > > standard.
That's certainly true, as other contributors have pointed out. The
Spanish typically asked "Who's the king here?" and then designated the
local leader - whatever his type of authority and however small his
domain - as "rey" (or "reyezuelo" or even, IIRC, "reyecillo").
Europeans also found "priests" among the Muslims of Southeast Asia,
though there is no such category in Islam. And where there was female
leadership (e.g., among the Iroquois of North America) the European
explorers usually just missed it.
Here I would be a bit cautious. Europeans (and Japanese and Indians,
for that matter), had a much more _systematic_ class structure than the
Filipinos did. This is something that is built up, by law and custom,
over time; it is (alas) one of the attributes of "civilization," with
lots of rules governing Who's Who And Gets To Do What.
But to say that the Philippines had no "class system" is, in my view, to
go too far in the opposite direction. The Philippines has _always_ had
"classes," as far back as the historical record goes, even if they
didn't operate exactly like European ones. The vocabulary alone gives
it away - you don't develop so many different words for people of
different ranks or categories if these don't mean _something_. (The
earliest dictionaries compiled in the Philippines by Spaniards show
literally dozens of words in local languages indicating distinctions of
rank, &c.) The problem for historians is always figuring out just what
they meant in practice.
> Someone who never lived within a differently structured society can´t figure
> what it´s like.
>
> > To top it all of, there is this class division left over from the
> > colonial days and modern terms of classes based on money.
>
> Yes, that is what Westerners observe, because this pattern they can
> recognize rather than the tribal patterns.
We (all) observe it now. A question that has intrigued me for decades -
to which I _might_ turn my attention in retirement - is the extent to
which present-day "class" in the Philippines, based upon wealth and
power (as noted) is directly derived from colonial classes (on which I
have written some: see my article on "The Principalia" in THE BIKOL
BLEND) and even, before that, to pre-colonial classes. Are they in
fact, in the words of a chapter title from John Larkin, "From Datus
Descended"? The evidence is sparse ...
> > Traditionally, the division is based upon skill, money and intellectual
> > skill.
Is it? I'd be interested in evidence for this. By the time most
societies have "money" (as opposed to other forms of wealth) they've
usually got organized rules of political succession as well.
What is interesting is this:
> > Is there anyone here knows the real for in any Filipino language for
> > FREEDOM? I did some thinking, which is rare I admit, the word Kalayaan
> > and malaya or laya for that matter is a made up word by the Katipunan,
> > and it was taken from a word that has a different meaning.
Look at Reynaldo Ileto, PASYON AND REVOLUTION, for a detailed analysis
of "kalayaan" and its various meanings. Tremendously important (and
controversial) book - probably the most significant written about
Philippine history in the last 40 years or more.
> > A challenge for you: Find it, a language professor in UP has challenged
> > my friends about finding it.
>
> Uh, that´s definitely an EXPERT question and not for me. But taking a look
> at my dictionary, there are some words that seem to be related, like
> "lumayas - to run away" or "layò -far, distant". Maybe the meaning of "layà"
> shifted from something like "detatched" to "free".
> Some Tagalog especialista please enlighten me! :-)
>
> > > What you describe is characteristic for a tribal society. Choosing the
> > > wisest person as the head of the group is better than inherited
> nobility.
> > > Someone who inherits leadership does not necessarily make a good leader.
Elsewhere in Southeast Asia scholars tend to use words like "charisma"
or "spiritual power" or "prowess" (O.W. Wolters). But these qualities
are generally sought only _among_ the ruling class, not among ordinary
peasants, who rarely get the chance to display them.
> > Because Filipinos before the coming of the Spaniards are tribal society,
> > and most still think in this manner, altho' the tribal society is gone.
>
> Although, looking on presidential elections, it is not clearly to be seen
> that Filipinos choose the most skilled person! :-))
"Skill" is, I suspect, the wrong word. "Powerful" or "charismatic" may
be closer to the mark. SEAsians generally assumed that political power
was linked to the possession of _spiritual_ power (not necessarily
virtue, but the ability to tap into the deeper essence of things), which
is why Ferdinand Marcos let it be known that he had a tremendously
strong "anting-anting" given to him by no less than Gregorio Aglipay.
It supposedly could deflect bullets ... but not lupus.
> > >>A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
> > >>they are looking at it with their experience and background.
>
> > > Exactly! That´s also the reason that Europeans didn´t realize that some
> of
> > > the societies they "discovered" were matriarchats.
Dubious. They were not patriarchies, but there is no evidence there was
EVER a matriarchy in SEAsia (or anywhere else), if we define that term
as the mirror-image of a patriarchy, i.e., women rule, women create and
interpret and enforce the law, men are depicted and treated as inferior,
women dominate intellectual/cultural production, etc. What SEAsia had
was lots of relatively gender-balanced societies, some of which were
MATRILINEAL in inheritance and descent-reckoning.
> > There are some who studied the tribes in Indonesia kind of hinted that
> > it seems to be matriarchial, very anthropological studies were made of
> > Philippine societies, now there are but it is kind of late when the
> > society is changing inti this more modern ways.
>
> Yes, it´s late, it is more a reconstruction. Matriarchats can´t survive in a
> modern complex society, they only work for tribes and clans. Some of the
> Lumads may still have it.
>
> > >>Any Gat, Datu or whatnot can issue protest and exclude themselves from
> > >>any agreements another made, something that Americans and Spaniards are
> > >>having difficulties understanding.
? This I don't follow.
> > > What do you mean? Is it like breaking a contract?
>
> > Spaniards, Dutch, British and Americans have made treaties with tribes
> > or Sultans and is always surprised that some would not follow the
> > treaties. One prime example is the treaty between the Tausugs and
> > Americans, they are smart enough to include other tribes in outlying
> > areas but without the other tribes agreeing to it.
> > There is always the complaint that Filipinos are not true to their word,
> > but his is not the case, the problem is that tribes are composed of
> > clans and some clans just decided to on their own. This lesson is not
> > understood by the Americans, the fact that there is no centralized form
> > of government among the tribes, they should've realized this dealing
> > with the American Indians, but they didn't.
The drift of this is correct, but the details might be clarified. The
US dealt with the Sultan of Sulu, who claimed to speak for his whole
"country," whereas in fact he was only the leader of a loose ad hoc
federation in many respects. There actually IS a European (Latin) term
for this: primus inter pares. So when he signed a treaty, "his" datus
thought they could opt out. The Americans convinced them - the hard way
- otherwise. This wasn't entirely a surprise, by the way. All over
Asia (and even more in Africa, I believe), Westerners dealt with the
natives this way: "You say you're one people and this is your leader?
Fine, when he signs, you all must obey. Those are the (new) rules. If
you don't like them, tough; we'll enforce them anyway. We're not having
every little penny-ante chief running around making up his own rules."
> Ah, classic misunderstanding between incombatible society patterns.
>
> > > Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their parents´
> debts?
All over Asia, including the Philippines, originally. (And I think in
Europe, if you go back far enough.) The idea that death ends debt is a
comparatively recent one in many places.
> > yes, that is unfortunate but it is like that, some of our traditions did
> > come from India via some other Austronesian groups.
>
> Is this still practiced in the Philippines?
>
> > >>I have issues with Agoncillo, much as I admire his research, he fails to
> > >>understand the tribal concept of leadership, it is nowhere near the
> > >>European concept of "Nobility", it is closer to American Indian
> > >>concepts, or tribal groups in the Americas.
> > >>You cannot clasify these tribal heads and chieftains as Nobles. See your
> > >>own footnote, I have this book as well and kept it as my reference. I
> > >>love it but with reservations.
>
> > > When did Agoncillo write this book? Before the 70ies? Todays historians
> and
> > > anthropologists are more careful about Eurocentricity.
>
> > First edition was 1960, there are better books but not as comprehensive.
> > Someday there will be...but it would be difficult to convince the
> > government to accept it as a textbook. Agoncillo is well respected, and
> > I understnad why, he worked hard to create this book, and he researched
> > a lot of it. Unlike most Filipino historians after him who just compiles
> > other people's work including his and make it into a book.
> > There are professors and other historians nowadays changing these, but
> > it is not an easy thing to do, without discrediting anybody.
>
> Considering the complicated patchwork of Filipino history, it can´t be easy
> to write a profound AND comprehensive book which is NOT eurocentric.
The problem is not just "eurocentrism" but in finding a vocabulary that
is intelligible (not social-science gibberish) but also universal, so
that we can compare across societies. Otherwise we find ourselves
unable to look at human society meaningfully; we just say "the English
have a king, and the French have a roi, and the Peruvians have an Inca,
and the Russians have a czar, and the Acehnese have a sultan, and the
Japanese have a Tenno {?} and on and on ..." We need vocabulary that
allow us to conceive of categories like "monarchy" and "nobility" and
"slavery" in DIFFERENT societies, while at the same time not denying
their difference entirely.
> Mission Impossible Piggy
Looping back to questions asked and assertions made elsewhere in this
thread:
1) There was definitely "slavery" in the pre-Hispanic Philippines, by my
reckoning. If you can be sold, if you can be put to death when your
master dies, you're a slave, in my book!
The problem is that the Philippines had an enormous RANGE of
"dependents", some of them clearly what would be called "(chattel)
slaves" in the West, others more like serfs, others more indentured
laborers or even poor adopted cousins. This whole issue has been
addressed by - who else? - W.H. Scott, not only in BARANGAY, but in an
article on this specific issue, "Oripun and Alipin in the Sixteenth
Century Philippines," in Anthony Reid, ed., SLAVERY, BONDAGE &
DEPENDENCY IN SOUTHEAST ASIA (1983).
Not only did the Spaniards "translate" all of these as slaves, but some
later Westerners (including Dean C. Worcester, in the early 20th
century) were keen on proving that Filipinos were _still_ "slave" owners
and traders, so the understandable reaction of Filipinos like Agoncillo
was to go the opposite direction and deny it entirely. It's a
nationalistic argument (IMHO), not a scholarly one: You say we're
barbaric slaveowners, I say we aren't and never were!
My view is that it is entirely correct to refer to _some_ Filipinos (in
pre-Hispanic times) as "slaves," but not to assume that ALL
alipin/oripun were, since many were not (as we understand the term
"slave" generally).
2) Was the Philippines a "class" society?
Yes, but not as rigid and formalized as European society was. I
_suspect_ that those on top were trying to formalize it as they went;
this is pretty much the universal pattern. ("We're in charge, and we
deserve to be in charge, and we feel that our children ought to be in
charge, so let's establish laws and customs that ensure they will be!")
The Spaniards entered this stratified, but still fluid, society, and
imposed on it more formal European distinctions: You guys are "nobles,"
the rest of you are not.
I agree with those who suggest that the European term "nobility" (or
"aristocracy") carries a bit more baggage than the Filipino case
probably warrants. I tend to use "elite(s)" myself, but that's a
problematic term, too. (I tried writing a paper on this once about 20
years ago and got shot down by a colleague over my conceptualization.
The title of my paper was an actual quote from a 16th-century Filipino
challenging Spanish attempts to undermine "slavery": "Without slaves
there are no datus!")
3) The Code of Kalantiaw was not an innocent mistake, but a deliberate
forgery from the early 20th century by one Jose E. Marco, who faked a
couple of early documents (one supposedly pre-Spanish, another early
Spanish) that fooled far too many people - including the American
director of the Philippine National Library - for far too long. Scott
exposed the forgery over 30 years ago, but it took quite a while for
many Filipinos who had been raised on this (it was in school textbooks
by then) and had based their own scholarly conclusions on it to accept
the fact it was a complete fraud.
ANYTHING related to Kalantiaw and his supposed "code" is completely
bogus. I distinguish this from other scholarly questions over which
there are differences of interpretation or exaggerations, but which may
reflect some kernel of truth. Unfortunately, in the latest edition of
Agoncillo's History I own (8th ed., 1990), he still quotes the entire
"Code", although he refers to it as "disputed" and footnotes Scott's
book. One can hardly blame the average reader for accepting this as at
least possibly true - especially when it is quoted at such length -
rather than a complete fraud. Agoncillo, acknowledged as the dean of
modern Philippine historiography, was apparently a very cantankerous
individual, and was not about to let anyone, much less an American, tell
him what was what! So much the worse for Philippine scholarship.
I think this addresses most of the major issues raised. If not, let me
know; I'm still around for a few more months.
Norman Owen
tansong tumbaga
> Sylvia, Schatze:
>
> My name having been invoked (by you) in another thread, I return to this
> one, which I had missed, since it was long and appeared (originally) to
> be all about the term "jolog." I've also been weighed down with
> teaching - it seems unfair that in return for my substantial salary
> (soon to cease) they actually expect me to _work_ for it, but there we
> are ...
>
> Comments are interspersed and follow:
>
>
>
> Here I would be a bit cautious. Europeans (and Japanese and Indians,
> for that matter), had a much more _systematic_ class structure than the
> Filipinos did. This is something that is built up, by law and custom,
> over time; it is (alas) one of the attributes of "civilization," with
> lots of rules governing Who's Who And Gets To Do What.
>
> But to say that the Philippines had no "class system" is, in my view, to
> go too far in the opposite direction. The Philippines has _always_ had
> "classes," as far back as the historical record goes, even if they
> didn't operate exactly like European ones. The vocabulary alone gives
> it away - you don't develop so many different words for people of
> different ranks or categories if these don't mean _something_. (The
> earliest dictionaries compiled in the Philippines by Spaniards show
> literally dozens of words in local languages indicating distinctions of
> rank, &c.) The problem for historians is always figuring out just what
> they meant in practice.
>
>
meant, how does one arrive at that position?
>
> We (all) observe it now. A question that has intrigued me for decades -
> to which I _might_ turn my attention in retirement - is the extent to
> which present-day "class" in the Philippines, based upon wealth and
> power (as noted) is directly derived from colonial classes (on which I
> have written some: see my article on "The Principalia" in THE BIKOL
> BLEND) and even, before that, to pre-colonial classes. Are they in
> fact, in the words of a chapter title from John Larkin, "From Datus
> Descended"? The evidence is sparse ...
>
>
>>>Traditionally, the division is based upon skill, money and intellectual
>>>skill.
>
>
> Is it? I'd be interested in evidence for this. By the time most
> societies have "money" (as opposed to other forms of wealth) they've
> usually got organized rules of political succession as well.
>
would want to read something like how much of the old class system is in
the new class system, what is the attitude of today's society towards it.
>
> What is interesting is this:
>
>
>
>
>>>Is there anyone here knows the real for in any Filipino language for
>>>FREEDOM? I did some thinking, which is rare I admit, the word Kalayaan
>>>and malaya or laya for that matter is a made up word by the Katipunan,
>>>and it was taken from a word that has a different meaning.
>
>
> Look at Reynaldo Ileto, PASYON AND REVOLUTION, for a detailed analysis
> of "kalayaan" and its various meanings. Tremendously important (and
> controversial) book - probably the most significant written about
> Philippine history in the last 40 years or more.
>
>
>
> Elsewhere in Southeast Asia scholars tend to use words like "charisma"
> or "spiritual power" or "prowess" (O.W. Wolters). But these qualities
> are generally sought only _among_ the ruling class, not among ordinary
> peasants, who rarely get the chance to display them.
>
It is still the same, see that? Today's society hasn't changed much,
even after so many years.
One that comes to mind is that so many charismatic leaders had come and
gone in the Philippines, some are kooks, nuts but with heavy load of
charisma and led some people to death.
>
>
>>>Because Filipinos before the coming of the Spaniards are tribal society,
>>>and most still think in this manner, altho' the tribal society is gone.
>>
>>Although, looking on presidential elections, it is not clearly to be seen
>>that Filipinos choose the most skilled person! :-))
>
>
> "Skill" is, I suspect, the wrong word. "Powerful" or "charismatic" may
> be closer to the mark. SEAsians generally assumed that political power
> was linked to the possession of _spiritual_ power (not necessarily
> virtue, but the ability to tap into the deeper essence of things), which
> is why Ferdinand Marcos let it be known that he had a tremendously
> strong "anting-anting" given to him by no less than Gregorio Aglipay.
> It supposedly could deflect bullets ... but not lupus.
>
Ok, that makes sense..
Bwahahaha!!.... the words are funny, but it makes sense.
Aha! Our smart resident, JT, said that, He is right then... what a smart
dude..
Done my cut and paste from your post, for my later resource...
Dirty Sick Pig
Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> BTW, this makes me wonder what attitude Filipinos have towards vengeance. Is
> there such a thing as vendetta among Filipinos? (I don´t think so).
> My guess is that Filipinos belong more to the "Turn the other cheek" type
> than the "Eye for an eye" type. Please tell me if I´m wrong!
>
> Revenge Is Blutwurst Piggy
I think a Pinoy will wait for an opportune moment to seek revenge, even
if it takes years. Then the sonofabitch strikes! I don't know if this
revenge and attendant retaliation is passed from generation to
generation, more important, what makes parties even and the dispute is
burried.
He may also wait in the sidelines and count misfortunes, bad luck,
accidents, deaths and sickness in the family of his opponent as his
revenge, specially if he places a curse (sumpa) on his opponent.
I'm not too good with the trait or ceremonies of "sumpa" so somebody
else less cursed than I am should pick up at this point. "Isinusumpa
kita" is "I place a curse (or hex) on you."
Don Pig
tansong tumbaga
I saw a revenge extracted, one guy was buying this guy drinks all day
then jumped on him stabbing him many times till the guy died, then the
killer just walked away satisfied.
LeeBat
>> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
>>
>>> BTW, this makes me wonder what attitude Filipinos have towards
>>> vengeance. Is
>>> there such a thing as vendetta among Filipinos? (I don´t think so).
>>> My guess is that Filipinos belong more to the "Turn the other cheek" type
>>> than the "Eye for an eye" type. Please tell me if I´m wrong!
>I saw a revenge extracted, one guy was buying this guy drinks all day
>then jumped on him stabbing him many times till the guy died, then the
>killer just walked away satisfied.
I know vendetta exists in Siquijor. My last trip home, we went to the
Sunday cockfights. That evening, I was sitting outside drinking tuba
with my cousins.
Suddenly, a cop raced up looking for my cousin who was also a cop.
My cousin said, "Gotta go!", and he and the other guy raced off in
their motorbikes. Next morning we got the story.
Two brothers won a goodly amount at the cockfights and were walking
home. A major local badass, who was hiding along the route, jumped out
brandishing a bolo and demanded all their money. The brothers resisted
and in the ensuing tussle, the badass received a major wound in his
gut.
Now the brothers were in a quandry. What to do? They knew if the guy
survived, he'd definitely come back and kill them both (such was his
reputation). They decided they had only one course of action. We gotta
kill him. They slit his throat but then asked, "But what if this tough
bastard survives even this?" So they proceeded to saw halfway thru his
throat.
Realizing the impact of what they had done, the brothers then said,
"But what about his family? They will now come after us."
They did the only sensible thing under the circumstances ..... they
took off to hide in the mountains.
Sure enough, the guy's family got wind of what happened and went out
searching for the brothers. My cousin was called because he was on
very good terms with both families and was needed as a mediator. He
was successful and the (former) badass guy's family agreed to not seek
revenge if the brothers surrendered and were brought to "justice".
I remember asking, "You mean you practice vendetta here?" Everyone
nodded their heads and said, "Yes, SonnyBoy, we do."
Don't know if the "truce" held up nor the final disposition of the
matter. Whole thing slipped my mind till now so I never asked the
family.
LeeBat
was suddenly bery polite to eberywan .......
LeeBat
>I think a Pinoy will wait for an opportune moment to seek revenge, even
>if it takes years. Then the sonofabitch strikes!
I responded to this in another place.
LeeBat
Sylvia Knörr
"Norman G. Owen" <ngo...@hkucc.hku.hk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:406A8D...@hkucc.hku.hk...
> Sylvia, Schatze:
Until now, only gay janitors were entitled to call me "Schatz", but since
you are such a nice professor, I will not protest. :-))
> My name having been invoked (by you) in another thread, I return to this
> one, which I had missed, since it was long and appeared (originally) to
> be all about the term "jolog." I've also been weighed down with
> teaching - it seems unfair that in return for my substantial salary
> (soon to cease) they actually expect me to _work_ for it, but there we
> are ...
Good thing you give us your input here for free. :-)
> Comments are interspersed and follow:
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> > "tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:cIN9c.30157$HM4....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
> > > Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> > > > Could it be that Mr. Agoncillo´s book is a little bit out of date?
> > Anyway,
> > > > since books on ethnologic data have been written by Europeans (or
people
> > of
> > > > Euro descent) in most cases, every society was measured with a
European
> > > > standard.
> That's certainly true, as other contributors have pointed out. The
> Spanish typically asked "Who's the king here?" and then designated the
> local leader - whatever his type of authority and however small his
> domain - as "rey" (or "reyezuelo" or even, IIRC, "reyecillo").
> Europeans also found "priests" among the Muslims of Southeast Asia,
> though there is no such category in Islam. And where there was female
> leadership (e.g., among the Iroquois of North America) the European
> explorers usually just missed it.
Most people can only see what they expect to see, but some were able to
"think outside of the box" and realised the differences. Often these were
the very people who advocated fair treatment of the indigenous population.
> > > What is interesting is that in 1974 I was actually asked that
question,
> > > and I had to answer in terms that I understood it, the man just shook
> > > his head and also could not understand how a country could have a
> > > society where there are no nobles and no classes, well, there is that
> > > social division of course but not in the same way as Europeans has.
> Here I would be a bit cautious. Europeans (and Japanese and Indians,
> for that matter), had a much more _systematic_ class structure than the
> Filipinos did. This is something that is built up, by law and custom,
> over time; it is (alas) one of the attributes of "civilization," with
> lots of rules governing Who's Who And Gets To Do What.
A class system is inevitable once a population starts to live in towns, with
too many people to know each other personally. Then you need a bureaucracy
and a certain stratification. I think most Filipinos were still living in
smaller communities when the Spaniards arrived.
> But to say that the Philippines had no "class system" is, in my view, to
> go too far in the opposite direction. The Philippines has _always_ had
> "classes," as far back as the historical record goes, even if they
> didn't operate exactly like European ones. The vocabulary alone gives
> it away - you don't develop so many different words for people of
> different ranks or categories if these don't mean _something_. (The
> earliest dictionaries compiled in the Philippines by Spaniards show
> literally dozens of words in local languages indicating distinctions of
> rank, &c.) The problem for historians is always figuring out just what
> they meant in practice.
> > > To top it all of, there is this class division left over from the
> > > colonial days and modern terms of classes based on money.
> > Yes, that is what Westerners observe, because this pattern they can
> > recognize rather than the tribal patterns.
> We (all) observe it now. A question that has intrigued me for decades -
> to which I _might_ turn my attention in retirement - is the extent to
> which present-day "class" in the Philippines, based upon wealth and
> power (as noted) is directly derived from colonial classes (on which I
> have written some: see my article on "The Principalia" in THE BIKOL
> BLEND) and even, before that, to pre-colonial classes. Are they in
> fact, in the words of a chapter title from John Larkin, "From Datus
> Descended"? The evidence is sparse ...
My observation was that Filipinos display wealth and status in a way that
would be frowned upon in Germany. I observed a similar behaviour in Spain,
so my conclusion was, that it must be a Spanish trait. Some Filipinos agree
on that, some disagree. I´m not very aquainted with Asian people generally,
but I know that in Buddhism (which IS an Asian concept) people can go for
money and wealth, whereas in Christian belief being rich is rather an
obstacle on the way to eternal bliss. Very different traits seem to be at
work here.
> > > > What you describe is characteristic for a tribal society. Choosing
the
> > > > wisest person as the head of the group is better than inherited
> > nobility.
> > > > Someone who inherits leadership does not necessarily make a good
leader.
> Elsewhere in Southeast Asia scholars tend to use words like "charisma"
> or "spiritual power" or "prowess" (O.W. Wolters). But these qualities
> are generally sought only _among_ the ruling class, not among ordinary
> peasants, who rarely get the chance to display them.
That´s not only in SE Asia. Everywhere leaders need charisma. If they don´t
have it, people will not accept them.
> > > Because Filipinos before the coming of the Spaniards are tribal
society,
> > > and most still think in this manner, altho' the tribal society is
gone.
> > Although, looking on presidential elections, it is not clearly to be
seen
> > that Filipinos choose the most skilled person! :-))
> "Skill" is, I suspect, the wrong word. "Powerful" or "charismatic" may
> be closer to the mark. SEAsians generally assumed that political power
> was linked to the possession of _spiritual_ power (not necessarily
> virtue, but the ability to tap into the deeper essence of things), which
> is why Ferdinand Marcos let it be known that he had a tremendously
> strong "anting-anting" given to him by no less than Gregorio Aglipay.
> It supposedly could deflect bullets ... but not lupus.
I guess among the uneducated masses, superstition still plays a major role
in life.
> > > >>A European from the middle ages would miscontrue this easily because
> > > >>they are looking at it with their experience and background.
> > > > Exactly! That´s also the reason that Europeans didn´t realize that
some
> > of
> > > > the societies they "discovered" were matriarchats.
> Dubious. They were not patriarchies, but there is no evidence there was
> EVER a matriarchy in SEAsia (or anywhere else), if we define that term
> as the mirror-image of a patriarchy, i.e., women rule, women create and
> interpret and enforce the law, men are depicted and treated as inferior,
> women dominate intellectual/cultural production, etc. What SEAsia had
> was lots of relatively gender-balanced societies, some of which were
> MATRILINEAL in inheritance and descent-reckoning.
Matriarchy is NOT a mirror-image of Patriarchy. There is no such a thing,
and probably never existed. Matriarchy is based upon matrilineal inheritance
and descent lines and considering the MOTHER as the central authority.
Hence, only tribal societies can be matriarchies (but must not be). There
are ethnic groups in China (have to search for the name) where possession is
passed from mother to the eldest daughter, and the spouse moves to the
wife´s house when a couple gets married. This is a matriarchy, even if they
have male representants for their OUTER affairs.
With higher standards of weapons, you can enforce your own concept of
society, but there might remain some relics of former patterns, which appear
as disobedience or lack of discipline.
> > > > Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their
parents´
> > debts?
> All over Asia, including the Philippines, originally. (And I think in
> Europe, if you go back far enough.) The idea that death ends debt is a
> comparatively recent one in many places.
Okay, even in Europe death doesn´t necessarily end every debt, but what´s
strange to me is that a child could get into slavery over his/her parents´
debts.
First of all we must realize that societies are on different levels of
development, due to their mere size, so the authorities have different
functions. Too often we compare apples with oranges.
This was a very differentiated essay, and very interesting to read. However,
when I lead your attention to this thread it was for JT´s quotation of
Agoncillo, in news:1064d03...@news.supernews.com...
Sorry that I didn´t say exactly what I meant in the first place, I couldn´t
expect you reading my mind. But it was interesting anyway. :-))
Promising To Be More Exact Next Time Piggy
Just JT
>
> Sylvia, Schatze:
----------
Uh oh, I have competition now. But I am just a janitor and I can't win
against a professor. So I'll just be cool and not exhibit the Flip trait of
possessiveness and jealousy.
> The problem is that the Philippines had an enormous RANGE of
> "dependents", some of them clearly what would be called "(chattel)
> slaves" in the West, others more like serfs, others more indentured
> laborers or even poor adopted cousins.
----------
And these "dependents" still exist to this day:
- The poorer, usually rural, relatives who become household help of better
educated and better off urban relatives;
- Poor relatives who are supported by better off expat relatives;
- The traditional "muchacho/a" (katulong/alilà/chimáy/maid) who are pretty
much next to slaves in their treatment by their "masters" (amo).
- The good for nothing spouse who is a constant burden on the other.
So today's Flip society have the "Coños" and "jologs" and the people in
between. What's interesting is that when we leave the shores Ináng Bayan, we
don't classify ourselves into social classes no more.
--
DalubJanitorClass
Renowl
still exist
Just JT
Sabi ni "Renowl" <ren...@aol.com>:
>
> you forget the fobs, the old timers, the bornin the usa, the rich, etc..
it
> still exist
Those terms seem to be more prevalent amongst Flips in North 'Merikuh. Those
terms don't exist in my back of the woods. We're just glad to meet any Flips
who come our way....
--
DalubEspeciallyTheHotBabesVariety
Renowl
Renowl
over other flips bvy trying to show that they are " better " or more
dominant. they can be in the philippines and anywhere. they can be in your
work place. some could be in certain ng. where i work these are the type that
find out that unknown people had pee d on their car.
Clueless Joe Kano
>
>
> I think a Pinoy will wait for an opportune moment to seek revenge, even
> if it takes years. Then the sonofabitch strikes! I don't know if this
> revenge and attendant retaliation is passed from generation to
> generation, more important, what makes parties even and the dispute is
> burried.
>
> He may also wait in the sidelines and count misfortunes, bad luck,
> accidents, deaths and sickness in the family of his opponent as his
> revenge, specially if he places a curse (sumpa) on his opponent.
>
> I'm not too good with the trait or ceremonies of "sumpa" so somebody
> else less cursed than I am should pick up at this point. "Isinusumpa
> kita" is "I place a curse (or hex) on you."
>
> Don Pig
Hmmm...I thought "Mahalkita" was the way to put a curse on someone.
It certainly cursed me all the way to the altar.
Don Juan Pig
LeeBat
>Those terms seem to be more prevalent amongst Flips in North 'Merikuh.
This is a relatively new phenomenon in the US.
>Those terms don't exist in my back of the woods. We're just glad to meet
>any Flips who come our way....
Always used to be that way here in the States.
I think you'll only find these divisions (if that's what you choose to
call them) in areas where large groups of Pinoys have settled.
Its still that way in the rural area I live now, likely since there's
so few of us living here. (Well, unless you include all them little
FOBs toiling away down in the bowels of the Fil-Am Center of the
Hamptons.)
LeeBat
Dollah is his Profit
Dirty Sick Pig
Renowl wrote:
Shit under car door handles work better.
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> >
> >>I'll bet the Germans gave them the most difficulty. When the ROmans
> >>arrived the structure of the society is tribal, and war like, like
> >>Philippines. At the time, even the French (Franks) consider themselves
> >>Germanic.
> > Oh, I think it wasn´t a problem for the Romans. It was a problem for the
> > Germans, Franks etc! Usually the conqueror doesn´t bother too much about
the
> > conquered people´s affairs. Did the Spaniards care about the Pinoy
psyche
> > and social patterns? Nah, all they needed to know is "who is the person
of
> > influence? We need to get him /her under control!"
> That is true, but is there any recorded events in pre-Roman history in
> Germany? Or is it like in the Philippines as far as pre-Hispanic records?
Yes, it is more like in the Philippines, there was merely an oral tradition
before the Romans arrived. Though Germans (more exactly: Scandinavians) had
an alphabet, the "Runes", they didn´t tell stories this way, just recorded
names on stones and pieces of wood or bone. So, like Pinoy history was
written by Spaniards, German history was written by Romans. We both see our
history through the conquerors´ eyes, somehow.
> >>It would be interesting to know how society was like before Romans came
> >>in and conquered Northern Europe.
> > Well, it must have been tribal life, quite similar to the pre-colonial
> > Filipino peoples, but certainly tougher. (Cold climate people are
tougher
> > than tropical people) Religion was animistic. There are some Roman
> > descriptions (Tacitus and Julius Caesar), they considered the Germans
> > barbaric savages. From the Roman point of view, I guess they were right!
> > :-))
> Considering how the Romans were, they are even more barbaric.
I don´t think so. Although they were cruel with their enemies, they have
been very advanced in other ways. They had medicine skills, sciences, fine
arts, great architecture, and, the best of all - books! :-)) Also they knew
how to govern a complex empire. Our western laws and judical system is still
based upon Roman law!
However, after the heyday of the Roman empire Europe sunk back into the
dark night of Middle age for centuries.
> >>You will notice, like I did (should you decide to go there) that
> >>Filipinos in general are more concerned about local elections than
> >>national, in fact most violence happens on that level.
> > I see. The local level is more suitable to a Filipino´s nature which
depends
> > on personal interaction, like in an extended family.
> You got it! In most cases the ones who win are related to the biggest
> family, the way it was when a Gat to a name is conferred. Like in my
> wife's hometown for example, the mayor had always been one of her
> cousin, left, right and center.
I wonder for how long this will stay that way...
> >>Unfortunately, the first casualty of such local election violence was
> >>the most admired female candidate.
> > Who do you mean?
> Before we left to come back home, a mayoral candidate, a very good
> vice-mayor was gunned down. She is the most popular because she really
> works for the people in her town. The military doesn't like her because
> she has the backing of masses and the left. Her records shows that she
> only comprimeses and works for the majority, ensuring their rights
> aren't trampled especially the farmers.
>
> http://www.inq7.net/opi/2004/feb/17/opi_editorial-1.htm
Sad story.
> >>>>>Like in India, where children have to work to pay back their parents´
> >>>debts?
> >>>>yes, that is unfortunate but it is like that, some of our traditions
did
> >>>>come from India via some other Austronesian groups.
> >>>Is this still practiced in the Philippines?
> >>If the person moves, there isn't that chance to pay up anymore. And that
> >>is easier to do. But some aspects of this still exist, in terms of
> >>"utang na loob" it is still a heavy burden for some.
I guess "utang na loob" are ties which reach areas that can´t be reached by
family ties.
> > Would it mean that if a father owes another man a favour and dies, that
the
> > child owes this man a favour?
> The whole family that benefitted from that favor owes it, it is like
> getting a new member of the family. Owing favor goes a long way for
> payment. A lot longer than the actual original favor, don't know why.
Filipinos must have a good memory. :-)
> > There are so many different tribes and nations involved, and they all
> > interacted. What makes it worse is that most written data are from
> > Europeans, not Filipinos. And the Philippines have not only a hard time
to
> > discover their past, but a hard time to be prepared for the future also.
> > There is an analogy of history and geology: Placed at the interference
zone
> > of tectonic plates, the Philippines are torn by tremendous forces. Like
they
> > are placed between past and future...
> It isn't easy, when Americans arrived they made their own mark. Add to
> that as well.
A playing field for generations of historians! :-)
Discovering Piggy
tansong tumbaga
> Yes, it is more like in the Philippines, there was merely an oral tradition
> before the Romans arrived. Though Germans (more exactly: Scandinavians) had
> an alphabet, the "Runes", they didn´t tell stories this way, just recorded
> names on stones and pieces of wood or bone. So, like Pinoy history was
> written by Spaniards, German history was written by Romans. We both see our
> history through the conquerors´ eyes, somehow.
>
>
>
>>Considering how the Romans were, they are even more barbaric.
>
>
> I don´t think so. Although they were cruel with their enemies, they have
> been very advanced in other ways. They had medicine skills, sciences, fine
> arts, great architecture, and, the best of all - books! :-)) Also they knew
> how to govern a complex empire. Our western laws and judical system is still
> based upon Roman law!
> However, after the heyday of the Roman empire Europe sunk back into the
> dark night of Middle age for centuries.
>
Roman accompishments and records created the Dark Ages. They destroyed
so much that even how to make cement was fogotten, not until a series of
failures to recreate it were they able to do it.
>
>>You got it! In most cases the ones who win are related to the biggest
>>family, the way it was when a Gat to a name is conferred. Like in my
>>wife's hometown for example, the mayor had always been one of her
>>cousin, left, right and center.
>
>
> I wonder for how long this will stay that way...
>
>
>>
>>http://www.inq7.net/opi/2004/feb/17/opi_editorial-1.htm
>
>
> Sad story.
>
Great lady.
>
>>>>If the person moves, there isn't that chance to pay up anymore. And that
>>>>is easier to do. But some aspects of this still exist, in terms of
>>>>"utang na loob" it is still a heavy burden for some.
>
>
> I guess "utang na loob" are ties which reach areas that can´t be reached by
> family ties.
>
>
> Filipinos must have a good memory. :-)
>
>
>
> A playing field for generations of historians! :-)
>
> Discovering Piggy
>
>
They would have to re-create the Filipino side of the history.
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Dirty Sick Pig wrote:
> > I think a Pinoy will wait for an opportune moment to seek revenge, even
> > if it takes years. Then the sonofabitch strikes! I don't know if this
> > revenge and attendant retaliation is passed from generation to
> > generation, more important, what makes parties even and the dispute is
> > burried.
I guess it makes a difference whether the anger was triggered by a personal
insult or by the killing of a family member (as in that incident Lolo LeeBat
talked about).
What I originally meant was whether Filipino families have something like a
"duty to avenge" the killing (by accident or intentionally) of a family
member, in order to regain a certain "family honor". Me seems, it is more a
question of temperament than a honor codex.
> > He may also wait in the sidelines and count misfortunes, bad luck,
> > accidents, deaths and sickness in the family of his opponent as his
> > revenge, specially if he places a curse (sumpa) on his opponent.
> >
> > I'm not too good with the trait or ceremonies of "sumpa" so somebody
> > else less cursed than I am should pick up at this point. "Isinusumpa
> > kita" is "I place a curse (or hex) on you."
Filipino voodoo??
> I saw a revenge extracted, one guy was buying this guy drinks all day
> then jumped on him stabbing him many times till the guy died, then the
> killer just walked away satisfied.
This was the end of a story. Do you know how it had started?
Unresentful Piggy
tansong tumbaga
>
>
> I guess it makes a difference whether the anger was triggered by a personal
> insult or by the killing of a family member (as in that incident Lolo LeeBat
> talked about).
> What I originally meant was whether Filipino families have something like a
> "duty to avenge" the killing (by accident or intentionally) of a family
> member, in order to regain a certain "family honor". Me seems, it is more a
> question of temperament than a honor codex.
>
be just an insult, or a debt unpaid...a debt that is honor bound, kinda
rare but I have seen it extracted with violence. With that violence, it
was extracted, interesting.
>
>>>He may also wait in the sidelines and count misfortunes, bad luck,
>>>accidents, deaths and sickness in the family of his opponent as his
>>>revenge, specially if he places a curse (sumpa) on his opponent.
>>>
>>>I'm not too good with the trait or ceremonies of "sumpa" so somebody
>>>else less cursed than I am should pick up at this point. "Isinusumpa
>>>kita" is "I place a curse (or hex) on you."
>
"sumpa" to head, something about a relative, and mine.
>
> Filipino voodoo??
>
Filipino voodoo can be terrible. I always say, my God is strong and
cannot suffer from it, it has not happen to me. But I don't know that
for sure.
>
>>I saw a revenge extracted, one guy was buying this guy drinks all day
>>then jumped on him stabbing him many times till the guy died, then the
>>killer just walked away satisfied.
>
>
>
> This was the end of a story. Do you know how it had started?
>
> Unresentful Piggy
>
>
The guy who died killed a member of my friend's family, his brother in
fact, my friend bide his time until his quarry actually thought he is a
friend of his target.
Then he offered all kinds of drinks honoring the target, the target is a
goner wihtout realizing until the end, he mentioned his brother's name
saying "Remember XXXX " while stabbing him, the knife has a meaning, it
means a traitor's payback actually. Almost like the Sicilian code.
We were all shocked, alhtough we know why he was ordering drinks, we
didn't realize it is that heavy.
I would do the same if my brother's hurt, or any of my daughters! This
is the code of the ancient ones I guess, I cannot help it. I have knives
for this purpose, made in the town of Balisong, Batangas, from German
ball bearings... the best alloy for knives.
Dirty Sick Pig
tansong tumbaga wrote:
> I would do the same if my brother's hurt, or any of my daughters! This
> is the code of the ancient ones I guess, I cannot help it. I have knives
> for this purpose, made in the town of Balisong, Batangas, from German
> ball bearings... the best alloy for knives.
You got any blade over three inches?
Anyway, I heard that for long blades, the best raw material is
automotive leaf springs.
29 Pig
tansong tumbaga
>
>
> tansong tumbaga wrote:
>
>> I would do the same if my brother's hurt, or any of my daughters! This
>> is the code of the ancient ones I guess, I cannot help it. I have
>> knives for this purpose, made in the town of Balisong, Batangas, from
>> German ball bearings... the best alloy for knives.
>
>
> You got any blade over three inches?
>
> Anyway, I heard that for long blades, the best raw material is
> automotive leaf springs.
>
> 29 Pig
>
But those rust, but I got them too as bolos.
Just JT
>
> is the code of the ancient ones I guess, I cannot help it. I have knives
> for this purpose,
Nah, I prefer Lolololo Leebat's METHOD OF REVENGE.
--
DalubAndIWillAlsoTakePix
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Norman G. Owen wrote:
> > But to say that the Philippines had no "class system" is, in my view, to
> > go too far in the opposite direction. The Philippines has _always_ had
> > "classes," as far back as the historical record goes, even if they
> > didn't operate exactly like European ones. The vocabulary alone gives
> > it away - you don't develop so many different words for people of
> > different ranks or categories if these don't mean _something_. (The
> > earliest dictionaries compiled in the Philippines by Spaniards show
> > literally dozens of words in local languages indicating distinctions of
> > rank, &c.) The problem for historians is always figuring out just what
> > they meant in practice.
> It would be interesting to find what those terms are and what they
> meant, how does one arrive at that position?
To agree on a definition of a certain term is the crucial point, in social
sciences more than in natural sciences. Terms like "race", "class" or
"slave" (just to name a few) have quite different meanings, depending on WHO
uses them. As for the Philippine terms of social categories, some may be
lost, some may have survived in songs, tales or names of locations.
> > Elsewhere in Southeast Asia scholars tend to use words like "charisma"
> > or "spiritual power" or "prowess" (O.W. Wolters). But these qualities
> > are generally sought only _among_ the ruling class, not among ordinary
> > peasants, who rarely get the chance to display them.
> It is still the same, see that? Today's society hasn't changed much,
> even after so many years.
> One that comes to mind is that so many charismatic leaders had come and
> gone in the Philippines, some are kooks, nuts but with heavy load of
> charisma and led some people to death.
Isn´t it like that everywhere? Charismatic leaders sometimes misuse the
confidence of the people. Modern democracies introduced systems of mutual
control to prevent a leader turning into a dictator. I guess the Philippines
did the same after the Marcos regime.
Vigilant Piggy
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> >>Considering how the Romans were, they are even more barbaric.
> > I don´t think so. Although they were cruel with their enemies, they have
> > been very advanced in other ways. They had medicine skills, sciences,
fine
> > arts, great architecture, and, the best of all - books! :-)) Also they
knew
> > how to govern a complex empire. Our western laws and judical system is
still
> > based upon Roman law!
> > However, after the heyday of the Roman empire Europe sunk back into the
> > dark night of Middle age for centuries.
> Some would argue that the Christians who destroyed a great number of
> Roman accompishments and records created the Dark Ages. They destroyed
> so much that even how to make cement was fogotten, not until a series of
> failures to recreate it were they able to do it.
Right, with their fervor to destroy all the pagan records Christian zealots
caused Europe to step backwards for quite a long time. This was the price we
had to pay for a progress in charity. History often goes two steps forward
and one step backward, but I´m optimistic that in the end progress will
prevail. This makes me sure that in two or three generations the problems of
the Third world countries like the Philippines could be solved. But first
the PEOPLE must want the change, not only their leaders or conquerors. Every
effort is lost if not supported by the common people. Education may help.
Soft Change Piggy
Dirty Sick Pig
Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> Isn´t it like that everywhere? Charismatic leaders sometimes misuse the
> confidence of the people
If I have charisma, I'd have a traveling religious ministry, curing the
incurable, performing miracles, accepting contributions from the
faithful. I'd be so divinely rich I will buy a TV station and preach in
front of cameras. Then I'd be so divinely a billionnaire.
> Modern democracies introduced systems of mutual
> control to prevent a leader turning into a dictator. I guess the Philippines
> did the same after the Marcos regime.
>
> Vigilant Piggy
Postage Paid Envelope Pig
REPENT! FOR THE END OF DAYS ARE NIGH!
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> > What I originally meant was whether Filipino families have something
like a
> > "duty to avenge" the killing (by accident or intentionally) of a family
> > member, in order to regain a certain "family honor". Me seems, it is
more a
> > question of temperament than a honor codex.
> All murder of a family member is a reason for revenge, it could actually
> be just an insult, or a debt unpaid...a debt that is honor bound, kinda
> rare but I have seen it extracted with violence. With that violence, it
> was extracted, interesting.
Are the targets of revenge both men and women or predominantly men?
> >>>He may also wait in the sidelines and count misfortunes, bad luck,
> >>>accidents, deaths and sickness in the family of his opponent as his
> >>>revenge, specially if he places a curse (sumpa) on his opponent.
> >>>
> >>>I'm not too good with the trait or ceremonies of "sumpa" so somebody
> >>>else less cursed than I am should pick up at this point. "Isinusumpa
> >>>kita" is "I place a curse (or hex) on you."
> My grandmother likes to do this, interestingle enough, Karma brought the
> "sumpa" to head, something about a relative, and mine.
How does a "sumpa" work? Can everybody put it?
> Filipino voodoo can be terrible. I always say, my God is strong and
> cannot suffer from it, it has not happen to me. But I don't know that
> for sure.
So how does Filipino voodoo work? Are there something like "voodoo priests"?
> >>I saw a revenge extracted, one guy was buying this guy drinks all day
> >>then jumped on him stabbing him many times till the guy died, then the
> >>killer just walked away satisfied.
> > This was the end of a story. Do you know how it had started?
> The guy who died killed a member of my friend's family, his brother in
> fact, my friend bide his time until his quarry actually thought he is a
> friend of his target.
> Then he offered all kinds of drinks honoring the target, the target is a
> goner wihtout realizing until the end, he mentioned his brother's name
> saying "Remember XXXX " while stabbing him, the knife has a meaning, it
> means a traitor's payback actually. Almost like the Sicilian code.
Shooting the guy wouldn´t go?
> We were all shocked, alhtough we know why he was ordering drinks, we
> didn't realize it is that heavy.
In this case, the killer was killed. What, if the killer is not available?
Could any other member of the killer´s family become a target then?
> I would do the same if my brother's hurt, or any of my daughters! This
> is the code of the ancient ones I guess, I cannot help it. I have knives
> for this purpose, made in the town of Balisong, Batangas, from German
> ball bearings... the best alloy for knives.
I start to understand what´s the Malay heritage of Filipinos - Malays are
famous for reckless and bloody deeds, if challenged.
Amok Piggy
LeeBat
>Nah, I prefer Lolololo Leebat's METHOD OF REVENGE.
>
>--
>DalubAndIWillAlsoTakePix
No pix, dammit!
Had a few drinks with my "buddy" tonite. Mentioned I'm going to Stony
Brook, a picturesque little town, tomorrow to meet so-and-so.
"You're driving 50 miles just to meet him? Why do a thing like that?"
"Well, Irv, we have to take care of a little business and then he's
gonna buy me lunch at this fancy restaurant."
"He's <gasp> buying lunch? Lee, I was gonna stay home and write checks
tomorrow but that's pretty boring. Mind if I tag along? I've always
liked Stony Brook, plus you and I'll get the chance to spend the day
hangin' out together."
"Sure, pal, whatever you say ......"
LeeBat
its great to hab sutts a good pren ......
tansong tumbaga
> Right, with their fervor to destroy all the pagan records Christian zealots
> caused Europe to step backwards for quite a long time. This was the price we
> had to pay for a progress in charity. History often goes two steps forward
> and one step backward, but I´m optimistic that in the end progress will
> prevail. This makes me sure that in two or three generations the problems of
> the Third world countries like the Philippines could be solved. But first
> the PEOPLE must want the change, not only their leaders or conquerors. Every
> effort is lost if not supported by the common people. Education may help.
>
> Soft Change Piggy
>
Philippines is far too young at this point.
tansong tumbaga
>>Norman G. Owen wrote:
>
>
>>>But to say that the Philippines had no "class system" is, in my view, to
>>>go too far in the opposite direction. The Philippines has _always_ had
>>>"classes," as far back as the historical record goes, even if they
>>>didn't operate exactly like European ones. The vocabulary alone gives
>>>it away - you don't develop so many different words for people of
>>>different ranks or categories if these don't mean _something_. (The
>>>earliest dictionaries compiled in the Philippines by Spaniards show
>>>literally dozens of words in local languages indicating distinctions of
>>>rank, &c.) The problem for historians is always figuring out just what
>>>they meant in practice.
>
>
>>It would be interesting to find what those terms are and what they
>>meant, how does one arrive at that position?
>
>
> To agree on a definition of a certain term is the crucial point, in social
> sciences more than in natural sciences. Terms like "race", "class" or
> "slave" (just to name a few) have quite different meanings, depending on WHO
> uses them. As for the Philippine terms of social categories, some may be
> lost, some may have survived in songs, tales or names of locations.
>
>
>>>Elsewhere in Southeast Asia scholars tend to use words like "charisma"
>>>or "spiritual power" or "prowess" (O.W. Wolters). But these qualities
>>>are generally sought only _among_ the ruling class, not among ordinary
>>>peasants, who rarely get the chance to display them.
>
>
>>It is still the same, see that? Today's society hasn't changed much,
>>even after so many years.
>>One that comes to mind is that so many charismatic leaders had come and
>>gone in the Philippines, some are kooks, nuts but with heavy load of
>>charisma and led some people to death.
>
>
>
> Isn´t it like that everywhere? Charismatic leaders sometimes misuse the
> confidence of the people. Modern democracies introduced systems of mutual
> control to prevent a leader turning into a dictator. I guess the Philippines
> did the same after the Marcos regime.
>
> Vigilant Piggy
>
>
led upsrisings and some even today have led people into communities they
develope. Some have died thinking that they are invincible with all
those amulets and "magic" prayers.
I showed my amulets to my Thai bro-in-law and he was saying that Thais
also have some kind of amulets and prayers that goes with it, he
mentioned mine's design is old and respectable, makes me wonder, how
similar can our cultures be?
Thailand belongs to the same family of Austronesian, but they have far
more influences form China and India, and their language and sea fearing
culture is not similar at all, being Thailand's water travels are along
the peaceful, calm water of Indo-China.
tansong tumbaga
And I thought that was you in 700 Club, I guess not.
tansong tumbaga
Tried that before, it is pleasurable, but the revenge part is not satisfied.
tansong tumbaga
>>All murder of a family member is a reason for revenge, it could actually
>>be just an insult, or a debt unpaid...a debt that is honor bound, kinda
>>rare but I have seen it extracted with violence. With that violence, it
>>was extracted, interesting.
>
>
> Are the targets of revenge both men and women or predominantly men?
>
>
>>>>>He may also wait in the sidelines and count misfortunes, bad luck,
>>>>>accidents, deaths and sickness in the family of his opponent as his
>>>>>revenge, specially if he places a curse (sumpa) on his opponent.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm not too good with the trait or ceremonies of "sumpa" so somebody
>>>>>else less cursed than I am should pick up at this point. "Isinusumpa
>>>>>kita" is "I place a curse (or hex) on you."
>
>
>>My grandmother likes to do this, interestingle enough, Karma brought the
>>"sumpa" to head, something about a relative, and mine.
>
>
> How does a "sumpa" work? Can everybody put it?
>
>
>>Filipino voodoo can be terrible. I always say, my God is strong and
>>cannot suffer from it, it has not happen to me. But I don't know that
>>for sure.
>
>
> So how does Filipino voodoo work? Are there something like "voodoo priests"?
>
through generations of women.
>
>>>>I saw a revenge extracted, one guy was buying this guy drinks all day
>>>>then jumped on him stabbing him many times till the guy died, then the
>>>>killer just walked away satisfied.
>
>
>>>This was the end of a story. Do you know how it had started?
>
>
>>The guy who died killed a member of my friend's family, his brother in
>>fact, my friend bide his time until his quarry actually thought he is a
>>friend of his target.
>>Then he offered all kinds of drinks honoring the target, the target is a
>>goner wihtout realizing until the end, he mentioned his brother's name
>>saying "Remember XXXX " while stabbing him, the knife has a meaning, it
>>means a traitor's payback actually. Almost like the Sicilian code.
>
>
> Shooting the guy wouldn´t go?
>
treachery.
>
>>We were all shocked, alhtough we know why he was ordering drinks, we
>>didn't realize it is that heavy.
>
>
> In this case, the killer was killed. What, if the killer is not available?
> Could any other member of the killer´s family become a target then?
>
generation, as far as I know.
>
>>I would do the same if my brother's hurt, or any of my daughters! This
>>is the code of the ancient ones I guess, I cannot help it. I have knives
>>for this purpose, made in the town of Balisong, Batangas, from German
>>ball bearings... the best alloy for knives.
>
>
>
> I start to understand what´s the Malay heritage of Filipinos - Malays are
> famous for reckless and bloody deeds, if challenged.
>
> Amok Piggy
>
>
would hear of an amok in the market place. Slowly as I grow older, it
happens in Mindanao only. And I grew up in Manila, part of it in Quezon
City, Cubao to be exact.
Sylvia Knörr
"tansong tumbaga" <ta...@hindiginto.ito> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
> >>Filipino voodoo can be terrible. I always say, my God is strong and
> >>cannot suffer from it, it has not happen to me. But I don't know that
> >>for sure.
> > So how does Filipino voodoo work? Are there something like "voodoo
priests"?
> I don't know if you can call them priests, supposedly the art is passed
> through generations of women.
Only females?
> >>The guy who died killed a member of my friend's family, his brother in
> >>fact, my friend bide his time until his quarry actually thought he is a
> >>friend of his target.
> >>Then he offered all kinds of drinks honoring the target, the target is a
> >>goner wihtout realizing until the end, he mentioned his brother's name
> >>saying "Remember XXXX " while stabbing him, the knife has a meaning, it
> >>means a traitor's payback actually. Almost like the Sicilian code.
> > Shooting the guy wouldn´t go?
> A knife has meaning, I forgot what it is, but I think it has to do with
> treachery.
Hm, sounds a bit like a sacrificial ritual.
> > In this case, the killer was killed. What, if the killer is not
available?
> > Could any other member of the killer´s family become a target then?
> I don't think so, targets for revenge that does pass to the next
> generation, as far as I know.
So it´s not an endless line of mutual killings between families.
> >>I would do the same if my brother's hurt, or any of my daughters! This
> >>is the code of the ancient ones I guess, I cannot help it. I have knives
> >>for this purpose, made in the town of Balisong, Batangas, from German
> >>ball bearings... the best alloy for knives.
> > I start to understand what´s the Malay heritage of Filipinos - Malays
are
> > famous for reckless and bloody deeds, if challenged.
> >
> > Amok Piggy
> Amok has different reasons. Every now and then when I was a child, I
> would hear of an amok in the market place. Slowly as I grow older, it
> happens in Mindanao only. And I grew up in Manila, part of it in Quezon
> City, Cubao to be exact.
It just came to my mind because "amok" is the only word in German language
that comes from the Malay language, as far as I know. Made me think it must
be something characteristic as a Malay trait. Even as a child, I always
associated Malays with fierce looks and with knives.
Scared Little Piggy
Viktor Orenji
"Sylvia Knörr" <sylvia.kno...@t-online.de> wrote
>
>
> Right, with their fervor to destroy all the pagan records Christian zealots
> caused Europe to step backwards for quite a long time. This was the price we
> had to pay for a progress in charity. History often goes two steps forward
> and one step backward, but I´m optimistic that in the end progress will
> prevail. This makes me sure that in two or three generations the problems of
> the Third world countries like the Philippines could be solved. But first
> the PEOPLE must want the change, not only their leaders or conquerors. Every
> effort is lost if not supported by the common people. Education may help.
>
I'm glad there are optimists like you in the group on the subject of the future
of Thirdworlders. With all the technology transfer to places like India, China,
even the Philippines, and elsewhere, there is much hope in the materialistic end
of things. I agree that the people must want change; this means changing value
systems or belief systems too sometimes. Yes, through education this is
possible... Two or three generations: your estimate is probably realistic.
World population growth rates are decreasing such that by 2020-2030, it is
possible to hit the plateau (ZPG - Zero Population Growth), henceforth
alleviating strain on resources. I think this is good news for everyone. But
anyway, if we start colonizing Mars and other planets, then maybe people can
have 7 children per family or something. Lots of real estate. Heh heh...
--Viktor
tansong tumbaga
>
>>I don't know if you can call them priests, supposedly the art is passed
>>through generations of women.
>
>
> Only females?
>
But women would teach their daughters, so my wife would say. But I don't
even believe in any such things.
>
>
> Hm, sounds a bit like a sacrificial ritual.
>
>
>
> So it´s not an endless line of mutual killings between families.
>
>
>>>famous for reckless and bloody deeds, if challenged.
>>>
>>>Amok Piggy
>
>
>>Amok has different reasons. Every now and then when I was a child, I
>>would hear of an amok in the market place. Slowly as I grow older, it
>>happens in Mindanao only. And I grew up in Manila, part of it in Quezon
>>City, Cubao to be exact.
>
>
>
> It just came to my mind because "amok" is the only word in German language
> that comes from the Malay language, as far as I know. Made me think it must
> be something characteristic as a Malay trait. Even as a child, I always
> associated Malays with fierce looks and with knives.
>
> Scared Little Piggy
>
>
>
It is a Malay word, a Filipinos have the same word. I don't know what
the etymology is. It means the same throughout South East Asia.
Dirty Sick Pig
tansong tumbaga wrote:
> Sylvia Knörr wrote:
>> It just came to my mind because "amok" is the only word in German
>> language
>> that comes from the Malay language, as far as I know. Made me think it
>> must
>> be something characteristic as a Malay trait. Even as a child, I always
>> associated Malays with fierce looks and with knives.
>>
>> Scared Little Piggy
> It is a Malay word, a Filipinos have the same word. I don't know what
> the etymology is. It means the same throughout South East Asia.
I thought Pinoys prefer the Spicnish word "juramentado."
Amuck Pig
Sylvia Knörr
"Viktor Orenji" <vm...@nospamhotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Tfqcc.32252$Pk3.20419@pd7tw1no...
> I'm glad there are optimists like you in the group on the subject of the
future
> of Thirdworlders. With all the technology transfer to places like India,
China,
> even the Philippines, and elsewhere, there is much hope in the
materialistic end
> of things. I agree that the people must want change; this means changing
value
> systems or belief systems too sometimes. Yes, through education this is
> possible... Two or three generations: your estimate is probably
realistic.
> World population growth rates are decreasing such that by 2020-2030, it is
> possible to hit the plateau (ZPG - Zero Population Growth), henceforth
> alleviating strain on resources. I think this is good news for everyone.
This will not be the end of all problems. Zero population growth will set in
at a very high level of world population. But I think if people are exposed
to increasing media input on an international basis, they will become more
aware of their OWN lives, hence they will adopt an attitude of conscious
decisions instead of a "bahala na attitude".
But
> anyway, if we start colonizing Mars and other planets, then maybe people
can
> have 7 children per family or something. Lots of real estate. Heh heh...
Lots of people will suffer from IMAMF syndrome.
I´m American Marsian Filipino Piggy
tansong tumbaga
Viktor Orenji
> This will not be the end of all problems. Zero population growth will set in
> at a very high level of world population. But I think if people are exposed
> to increasing media input on an international basis, they will become more
> aware of their OWN lives, hence they will adopt an attitude of conscious
> decisions instead of a "bahala na attitude".
In a suburban Buddhist temple (with genuine Chinese architecture, I
might add), I chanced upon some literature, _Life of a Lay Buddhist:
Meditation = Awareness_ by Venerable Dr. Medagama Vajiragnana. Here's
an interesting quote:
"There are two factors which mould and modify social relations from time
to time as circumstances demand; one is material or physical factor and
the other is mental or psychological. Here the Buddha, while accepting
the importance of the material factors, puts emphasis on the
psychological influences when he teaches that _man is his own master_."
"At the time of the Buddha, people of India used to follow with blind
faith numerous superstitious practices. These meaningless activities
were accompanied by devout expectations. Without themselves taking
responsibilities, the faithful waited for a god or providence to send
them some material or spiritual advantages. The Buddha revealed both
the compassionate and practical nature of his teachings here. He
directed people's attention away from such vain activities to the
development of rational and ethical ways of conduct." (pages 9-10)
>
> I´m American Marsian Filipino Piggy
>
>
--Viktor
Martian Easter Orange-Chocolate Wabbit
Sylvia Knörr
Sounds very good indeed, but many still didn´t hear the message. How else
could it be that there´s so much superstition and fatalism?
> --Viktor
>
> Martian Easter Orange-Chocolate Wabbit
Makes me wanna try... :-))
Pavlov´s Piggy