Is change good??
sayan bhattacharyya
Sambit Basu <sam...@gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>
> Tobe akta-i santona, "biplob" jodi konodin ashe ta apnader
> haat dhore ashbena.
Biplob karo hat dhore ase na. Biplob ekta prakritik ghotonar moto,
jemon bhumikompo ba kalboishakhi. Se sworaT ebong swoyombhu.
jodi se ase, tobe aste dao take |
khaler srote srote chalao baan, shrabon baan,
tomar o goli hobe kannamoy aha kannamoy,
ki kore dhakbe je chokh ba kaan, onek gaan,
ki aar hobe bhebe ei ki hoy bujhi ei ki hoy !
ratri hobe shesh, neon jabe nibhe, asbe din,
omogh teer sei chhNiRbe shmoshaner ondhokar,
tomar kannay phutbe kannar onek phul,
ki hobe buk chepe, sipai ghire rekhe bondho dwaar?
aasbe aasbei biraT akasher se ashwin,
shrabon par hoye jodi se ase tate melao gaan,
tomake maaRiye se asbe, laalpoth sobuj maTH chheRe dao takey !
( Bishnu Dey)
-Sayan.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4c6gts$7...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu>, sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
SB> : >>>>> In article <4c4buf$2...@image.cs.nyu.edu>, sau...@cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
SB> :
SB> : SB> by indian society i am of course not counting people who can
SB> : SB> blow up rs 2000+ for a lunch for five...
SB> :
SB> : Tahole amra ki untouchables (i.e. mlechho) Saugata-babu? :-) [Vedic
SB> : jug-e shudro-der citizen bol-e count kora hoto na!!]
SB> aha mleccho hote jabe keno ? indian society niye alochona korte gelo tomra
SB> sankhyai eto kam je tomader significance naganya. tai tomader dhorina.
Nijekeo dhorona Saugata? Shadhu, shadhu! :-) Openly nijeke nogonno
bol-e ghoshona korchho! Bukher pata achhe! Congrats!
SB> : Do you count those people as Indians, who study abroad in NYU and
SB> : (possibly) aspire a for Green Card? :-) And of course they once in a
SB> na bhai ami green card aspire korina. proman shorup bharate ganda khanek
SB> jaigai amar job application ekhon dhulo khacche. tomar e bishoye aspiration
SB> ta ektu shona jak ....
Only time will tell! :-) __Probably___, Sayan and you will go for a
Green Card (like me, that is). Only you don't have the guts to
acknowledge it because your pseudo conscience (tickled by Marx and
Mao) scares you off.
Amar aspiration khub simple. I'll complete my PhD, get a job in the
US, get the Green card, get married, have a couple of kids (twins are
fine), buy a house, buy a Mazda Miata some day, attend our kids'
weddings, and finally die.
SB> : while visit such restaurants that cost $15 per meal (or-e baba
SB> : Rs. 500! Koto gorib khete peto, tai na, ki bolo?).
SB> tumi eto khepcho keno. ami ki ek baro bolechi je $15 meal kheyo na. khali
SB> indian society'r samparke katha bolte giye tomar class'ke bad diyechilam.
SB> hoito amar class ar tomar class eki. tate ki eshe gelo ?
You are making a big mistake. It takes all kinds to build a society.
Tata-Birla-ke bad diye you can't think about India, however, rich
Tatas and Birlas may be. Shudhu Mao-r gorib krishok aar Lenin-er
proletariat-ke niye desh chol-e na. However, whether the
landlords/industrialists abuse the system is a different question
altogether. Plus wealth is not equal to filth. Fundamentally, this
is where I differ with you and Sayan.
SB> : Problem-ta ki jano Saugata, bhondami-ta thik amar poshai na. As
SB> : Ananish pointed out correctly, USA-te bosh-e onek bor-o bor-o kotha
SB> : bola jai (symbolic) Marlboro-r packet hat-e, kajer bela basically
SB> : bushimal.
SB> kaj ke ki korbe seta to pare dekha jabe, kintu amar mone hoi je jara jara
SB> ekhane besh semi-permanently ghar dhor bedheche ba badhbar plan korche
SB> tara ektu ei byapare sensitive. jemon dharo tumi, ananish, sambit..
Let me put it this way. We cannot tolerate quacks.
SB> kintu tomar
SB> posting-gulo pore mone hoi tumi satiyi eshobe khub chote jao.
Choti ni. Just irritated with people like you and Sayan, who point
fingers at others with a holier-than-thou attitude, where they should
be doing a self-assesment and reality check in the first place.
-SHubu
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shubu Mukherjee Univeristy of Wisconsin-Madison, Computer Sciences
sh...@cs.wisc.edu http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~shubu
Sudeshna Das
control boleo to jinish achhe, na ki? Ajkaal to dekhi Nachubabu'keo
chharchho na ... hai, e-i tomar shangei ki ek kale dhitang dhitang bole
madole biplob'r tal tolar chesta peyechhilam?
Du:kho peye,
Apratim.
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: Shubu Mukherjee <sh...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
: >
: >
: >Ghare-baire porechho/dekhechho nishoi. Frankly, tomar ebong Sayan-er
: >shong-e ami Sandeep-er ekta marattok shadrishho dekhi. Shodeshi-r
: >gaan geye jara bideshi biri-te tan dei, tader kotha bolchhi aar ki.
: I think I have stated in s.c.b. more than once in the past that (1) I do
: not claim any kind of moral high ground whatsoever, and (2) my criticisms
: are as much self-criticisms as they are criticisms of others. I am at least
: as much guilty of the sins of the elite as Shubhendu is. But that should
: not stop us from recognizing these sins/shortcomings and doing something
: about it. The solution is not to start getting defensive about one's
: shortcomings, as Shubhendu has done in this post.
: Incidentally, presumably Shubhendu knows little about my (or Saugata's)
: personal life. We have never met in real life. How does he presume to
: jump to conclusions about how we conduct our lives, what our life goals
: are, and whether we smoke "bideshi biRi" or not?
: In another posting Shubhendu asks Raghu Seshadri not to "jump to conclusions"
: about him. It seems that he has forgotten this injunction in this post
: himself, and is hoist by his own petard.
: Once again, I am claiming NO moral high ground for myself. Let this be
: clear once and for all.
: -Sayan.
Sudeshna Das
: Tobe akta-i santona, "biplob" jodi konodin ashe ta apnader
: haat dhore ashbena.
Amar feeling-ta, e byapare, Sambit'r theke alada. India'te "biplob"
ele, asha rakhi (ebang bhagan'r kachhe prarthona kori) ta jeno Sayan-
Saugata-Parthababu-Soumitra-Probalda eder (mane symbolically eder)
haat dhorei ashe. Tumi ki shottikar biplobi chao na ki he Sambit!?
: Sambit
Apratim.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4c95rd$n...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>> Tobe akta-i santona, "biplob" jodi konodin ashe ta apnader
>> haat dhore ashbena.
SB> Biplob karo hat dhore ase na. Biplob ekta prakritik ghotonar moto,
SB> jemon bhumikompo ba kalboishakhi. Se sworaT ebong swoyombhu.
Chivas tene monke bojhay,
oli-goli, bNyaka-y shoja-y,
"emni kore-i mon chhute jay,
graam-er paane!"
Ei na bhebe biplobi mon,
obosheshe shanto jokhon,
nijer ego-r jotno-sadhon,
korte cheye-
Sambit
:-)
-Shubu
Indranil DasGupta
Ha, ha, ha, ha,
ha, ha, ha, ha
baloker dol ..
Sambit ashitei
hoilo ombol?
Indranil.
Sambit Basu (sam...@gandalf.rutgers.edu) wrote:
: Saugata Basu likhlen, Internet-e:
: > by indian
: > society i am of course not counting people who can blow up rs 2000+ for
: > a lunch for five...
:
: > saugata.
: Amar akta biplobi chhoDa-r kotha mone poDe galo:
: Biplobi mon shorboneshe,
: hothat tumi uthle hNeshe
: Chokh pakiye bolbe eshe -
: hNashbe na ko!
:
: biplobi mon boddo udaar
: onyo jothor, onyo khudhaar
: kotha bhebe-i gaal-er dudhaar,
: bhashchhe dakho!
: biplobi mon onek dekhe,
: onek poDe, onek theke,
: Macy-r mall-e giye shekhe -
: desher je ki bhishon jwala!
: desher bhaat ba shobji-ruti,
: hinche, palong, motorshNuti,
: eshob phele guti guti,
: markine-te murgi-paala!
:
: murgi-paalon biplobi-kaaj,
: biplobi-bhek, biplobi-shaaj,
: biplobi taai sharif-mejaaj,
: Chivas taane.
:
: Chivas tene monke bojhay,
: oli-goli, bNyaka-y shoja-y,
: "emni kore-i mon chhute jay,
: graam-er paane!"
:
:
: Ei na bhebe biplobi mon,
: obosheshe shanto jokhon,
: nijer ego-r jotno-sadhon,
: korte cheye-
: Burner-ete mangsho chapay,
: Gel-er jor-e teri phNapay,
: Laserjet-e bio chhapay,
: Oloppeye!!!!!!!
: "Biplobi" hote cheye,
: Sambit
Indranil DasGupta
: sh...@cs.wisc.edu (Shubu Mukherjee) writes:
: :
: kaj ke ki korbe seta to pare dekha jabe, kintu amar mone hoi je jara jara
: ekhane besh semi-permanently ghar dhor bedheche ba badhbar plan korche
: tara ektu ei byapare sensitive. jemon dharo tumi, ananish, sambit..
: apratim ar indranil'ke dhorlamna karan ora chyablamo kore. kintu tomar
: posting-gulo pore mone hoi tumi satiyi eshobe khub chote jao.
Dekhun Saugata-babu, apni amake Indranil-babu bolben.
Er ager ekti thread-e amar onekgulo prosno eriye jabar poreo apni
hashimukhe net-e bichoron korchhen dekhe khushi hoyechhi she kotha bolai
bahulyo. Modhyobitto bangalira apnar moto du-kan kata hole aj bangladesh
shujola shufola hoye jeto e bishoye amar kono shondeho nei.
Apni baro hon, raja hon, etai amader prarthona. Amake bhul bujhben na.
Indranil.
PS: Apnar `crinjon-kriya' kamon cholchhe? Shokaal-bikel `cringe' kore
cholechhen to? Chaliye jan. Mukhosrir arektu unnoti holei Sambit-er
cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
saugata basu
:
:
: SB> : >>>>> In article <4c4buf$2...@image.cs.nyu.edu>, sau...@cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
:
:
: SB> : (possibly) aspire a for Green Card? :-) And of course they once in a
:
: SB> na bhai ami green card aspire korina. proman shorup bharate ganda khanek
: SB> jaigai amar job application ekhon dhulo khacche. tomar e bishoye aspiration
: SB> ta ektu shona jak ....
:
:
: Only time will tell! :-) __Probably___, Sayan and you will go for a
: Green Card (like me, that is). Only you don't have the guts to
: acknowledge it because your pseudo conscience (tickled by Marx and
: Mao) scares you off.
:
: Amar aspiration khub simple. I'll complete my PhD, get a job in the
: US, get the Green card, get married, have a couple of kids (twins are
: fine), buy a house, buy a Mazda Miata some day, attend our kids'
: weddings, and finally die.
shubu,
you are still missing my point. i never criticised people who have aspirations
like yours. i was just not counting such people when making statements
about indian society because of their miniscule numbers.
my own aspirations which were clearly stated -- and about which you have
made completely unsubtantiated innuendoes -- has nothing to do with this
at all. in fact it has very little to doo with any political idealogy.
i want to go back as i think i will be more comfortable there than here.
but again this has nothing to do with this thread.
saugata.
saugata basu
: saugata basu (sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu) wrote:
: : sh...@cs.wisc.edu (Shubu Mukherjee) writes:
: : :
:
: : kaj ke ki korbe seta to pare dekha jabe, kintu amar mone hoi je jara jara
: : ekhane besh semi-permanently ghar dhor bedheche ba badhbar plan korche
: : tara ektu ei byapare sensitive. jemon dharo tumi, ananish, sambit..
: : apratim ar indranil'ke dhorlamna karan ora chyablamo kore. kintu tomar
: : posting-gulo pore mone hoi tumi satiyi eshobe khub chote jao.
:
: Dekhun Saugata-babu, apni amake Indranil-babu bolben.
indranil,
nam dhore dakata amar bad abhyas. eta paltate parlumna.
: Er ager ekti thread-e amar onekgulo prosno eriye jabar poreo apni
: hashimukhe net-e bichoron korchhen dekhe khushi hoyechhi she kotha bolai
: bahulyo. Modhyobitto bangalira apnar moto du-kan kata hole aj bangladesh
: shujola shufola hoye jeto e bishoye amar kono shondeho nei.
asale tumi ki asha koro je ami tomar sab posting monojog diye pore tar
sab proshner jabab debo ? e rakam asha rekhona. amio rakhina.
: Apni baro hon, raja hon, etai amader prarthona. Amake bhul bujhben na.
ta to bujlam. kintu ei "amader" ta thik ke ke ta jadiyo bujlam na.
kintu tumio je shubu'r moton chote jao ta to jantam na. amar tumi
sambodhoneo jadi apatti thake -- age thekei janie dilum je otao abhyas
dosh.
: Indranil.
:
: PS: Apnar `crinjon-kriya' kamon cholchhe? Shokaal-bikel `cringe' kore
: cholechhen to? Chaliye jan. Mukhosrir arektu unnoti holei Sambit-er
: cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
: phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
ei shab chele manushi'r ar ki jabab debo ? er cheye shubu'r posting
dher mature.
saugata.
saugata basu
:
: SB> dgu...@buphy.bu.edu (Indranil DasGupta) writes:
:
: IDG> : cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
: IDG> : phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
:
: SB> ei shab chele manushi'r ar ki jabab debo ?
:
: Ki aar bolbo Saugata? You know why Indranil is in my kill file.
:
: -Shubu
yet another scb thread culminates in name-calling and kill filing.
however, having contributed to the acrimony a great deal this time
my sincere apologies to all scb readers. in fact, i am usually in
my foulest moods during year endings, and 1995 was no exception.
happy and prosperous 1996 to all -- including green card holders,
aspirants and the non-aspirants. peace everyone ?
saugata.
Shubu Mukherjee
SB> dgu...@buphy.bu.edu (Indranil DasGupta) writes:
IDG> : cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
IDG> : phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
SB> ei shab chele manushi'r ar ki jabab debo ?
Ki aar bolbo Saugata? You know why Indranil is in my kill file.
-Shubu
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4c9m4q$g...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu>, sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
SB> you are still missing my point. i never criticised people who have aspirations
SB> like yours. i was just not counting such people when making statements
SB> about indian society because of their miniscule numbers.
And you are missing my point again Saugata. Tatas and Birlas come in
miniscule numbers, but have enormous impact on the Indian society.
Probal Sengupta
|
|
| Problem-ta ki jano Saugata, bhondami-ta thik amar poshai na. As
|
| Ghare-baire porechho/dekhechho nishoi. Frankly, tomar ebong Sayan-er
| shong-e ami Sandeep-er ekta marattok shadrishho dekhi. Shodeshi-r
| gaan geye jara bideshi biri-te tan dei, tader kotha bolchhi aar ki.
|
| kachhakachhi bola jete par-e. Ki he Probal-da, thik boli ni? :-)
|
Ei khelo jaa! E je dekhi Shubu aamaar proshongshaa (??) korchhe!! Koi?
Aami to Shubu'r kono apokaar korechhi bole mone porchhe naa :-) Tabe
Shubu. Tumi tomaar upaarjito taakaa-te Kolkata giye ek sitting-e Rs 2000
uriye phurti korechho, besh korechho. Sheta SCB-te dhaak pitiye prochhar
naa korle ki cholchhilo na? Anyoder kothaa jaaninaa. Aami jodi orokom
gota koyek phurti kori, maash maaine-ti ure jaabe, bou baachchaa, buri
maa naa kheye (ba Zarang-er goppo shune) morbe. Tomaar lekha pore tai
bhishon inferiority complex anubhob korchhi. Bishesh kore, shamner maash
theke aabaar oi abosthaate-i phire jete habe to. Aar Nikhilesh-er shange
aamaar tulona cholena. Aami jomidaar noi. Jehetu Bangal by origin, by
default, purbapurusheraa nischoi jomidaar chhilen. Kintu taar talaanituku-o
pore nei.
| -Shubu
|
| PS: Zarang-er appetizer-gulo marattok. Chheke dekho ekbar!! In
| particular, try the Peshowari Kabab.
| --
|
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Shubu Mukherjee Univeristy of Wisconsin-Madison, Computer Sciences
| sh...@cs.wisc.edu http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~shubu
|
Next time Kolkata gele tomaar phurti koraar group-e aamaake-o include
koro bhaai. Parer poyeshaay Bilaati phurti amaar khub pachhondo. Badole
aami naa hoy tomaake EC-Market-er Boudir dokaan-er ruti aar chicken curry
treat korbo. Ki, raaji?
Probal
Sudeshna Das
: Biplob karo hat dhore ase na. Biplob ekta prakritik ghotonar moto,
: jemon bhumikompo ba kalboishakhi. Se sworaT ebong swoyombhu.
Biplob jodi swawambhu, tabe social change ana niye faltu matha ghamiye
ki labh?
: -Sayan.
Apratim.
Sudeshna Das
: Anyoder kothaa jaaninaa. Aami jodi orokom
: gota koyek phurti kori, maash maaine-ti ure jaabe, bou baachchaa, buri
: maa naa kheye (ba Zarang-er goppo shune) morbe. Tomaar lekha pore tai
: bhishon inferiority complex anubhob korchhi. Bishesh kore, shamner maash
: theke aabaar oi abosthaate-i phire jete habe to.
USA-te chole ashun Probalda. Kimba Canada ba Australia'te. Pete
khide mukhe laaj rakhben na. Ote shudhu mono:kashto baRe. Canada'te
GC paowa apnar qualification'e bejai shoja. Shat-aat mashe peye jaben.
Tappore to batshorik Kolkata jaowa ar Zaranj'e khaowa achhei. USA'ta
arektu shomoishapekkho, tabe ja shuni Canada-teo bandobasto besh bhalo.
Prochur biplobi okhane chole eshechhen. Nagbabukei jigesh korun na?
Ar biplob'r janyo SCB achhe. Emnitei boudi na anumati dile (jemon
apni age bolechhilen) apnar radical idea apni implement korte parben
na Kolkata-i, tai SCB'r virtual world will be just the ideal place
for you. Ki balen, kharap idea? Tappore Shubu 2200 kharcha korle apni
4400 kore dekhiye deben - kothai thakbe inferiority complex?
Bisheshata, 2200 kharcha niye inferiority complex chhaRa apnar ar
jakhan kono shamoshya nei, Saugata-Sayan'r moto. First world'e
pakapaki bhabe ekbar pouchhe gele hoito habe, kintu she parer byapar
pare dekha jabe (ar tar jonyeo SCB achhe), age to bhaloi bhaloi chole
ashun.
: Probal
Apratim.
Sudeshna Das
: PS: Apnar `crinjon-kriya' kamon cholchhe? Shokaal-bikel `cringe' kore
: cholechhen to? Chaliye jan. Mukhosrir arektu unnoti holei Sambit-er
: cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
: phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
Notun bachhare Saugata'r kapal to khule gelo dekhchhi! Ta, full length
feature hochchhe na informercial?
Apratim.
Indranil DasGupta
: dgu...@buphy.bu.edu (Indranil DasGupta) writes:
: :
: indranil,
: nam dhore dakata amar bad abhyas. eta paltate parlumna.
Saugata-babu, apni nijer bodobhyasher kotha tullen bolei shubhanudhyayi
hoye janachchhi, apnar bodobhyasher firisti-ti nehat
lomba. Modhyoboyoshko poropurusher shathe tar ichchher birudhdhe
ghonishto hote chaoa chharao dhorun apnar double standard-er kotha akhon
scb-te kimbodontiprotim hoye gachhe. Nijei jokhon nijer byadhiti dhore
phelechhen, tokhon ar ki, kopale lal kali diye tinbar likhun `ami
bod'. Tarpor matha muriye, ghol dhele, ulto gadhar pithe chepe chole
ashun Boston-e. Amra camera niye ready.
: : Er ager ekti thread-e amar onekgulo prosno eriye jabar poreo apni
: : hashimukhe net-e bichoron korchhen dekhe khushi hoyechhi she kotha bolai
: : bahulyo. Modhyobitto bangalira apnar moto du-kan kata hole aj bangladesh
: : shujola shufola hoye jeto e bishoye amar kono shondeho nei.
: asale tumi ki asha koro je ami tomar sab posting monojog diye pore tar
: sab proshner jabab debo ? e rakam asha rekhona. amio rakhina.
Dekhun Saugata-babu, apni adou kichhu monojog diye poren na ekothata
scb-r jonota atodine jane na amon durasha rakhben na. O niye to amar
kono khobh nei. Khushi-i hoyechhi!
Kintu `tumi' shombodhan kore bhoy paoachchen kano mairi? Apnar bodobhyasher
byapaarta chepe rakha jay na? Ato ghonishtota ami chai na please. Apnar
byektigoto jibon niye amar kichhu bolar nei. Kintu apnader paray onno
purush-o to achhe!
Tachhara newsgroup-e aktaa ruchibodh-er bepaar-o to thake.
Hoyto apni bNashgachh dekhlei premashokto
hon ... kintu e dhoroner bodobhyash ki buk phuliye net-e bolar moto
jinish?
: : Apni baro hon, raja hon, etai amader prarthona. Amake bhul bujhben na.
: ta to bujlam. kintu ei "amader" ta thik ke ke ta jadiyo bujlam na.
Apnar purono kichhu bandhobjon. Onekei apnake niye bhabe!
: kintu tumio je shubu'r moton chote jao ta to jantam na. amar tumi
: sambodhoneo jadi apatti thake -- age thekei janie dilum je otao abhyas
: dosh.
Ar ki bolbo?! Shombhoboto apni nijer bodobhyash-guli jotne pushe
rekhechhen. Gorbo korei janachchhen tader kotha. Shekhetre amake doya
kore chhere deben e asha ar rakha jay na.
Apnar-i mongol hok. Gorbo-i jokhon bodh korchhen tokhon prarthona kori
dine dine apnar bodobhyash baruk. Record kore phelun moshai. Chutiya
hobar birudhdhe kono ain nei janen to?
Desh-er dukhkho-daridro niye kotha bolar shomoy aktaa saxophone-er upor
boshar cheshta korechhen ki? Bodobhyash holeo shilpo srishtir shomuho
shombhabona theke jachche apnar khetre.
Onyo netter-ra Saugata-babu-ke aro kichhu bodobhyash-er poramorsho deben
ei abedon roilo.
: : PS: Apnar `crinjon-kriya' kamon cholchhe? Shokaal-bikel `cringe' kore
: : cholechhen to? Chaliye jan. Mukhosrir arektu unnoti holei Sambit-er
: : cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
: : phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
: ei shab chele manushi'r ar ki jabab debo ? er cheye shubu'r posting
: dher mature.
Moner moto role-ta peye giye anonde bakyi shorchhe na je Saugata-babur!
Nin jhot kore sign kore phelun! Amon shujog kojone pay?
Indranil.
Indranil DasGupta
: yet another scb thread culminates in name-calling and kill filing.
: however, having contributed to the acrimony a great deal this time
: my sincere apologies to all scb readers. in fact, i am usually in
: my foulest moods during year endings, and 1995 was no exception.
I am glad that you realised who started the name calling. Your apology
is accepted.
Indranil.
Indranil DasGupta
: sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
Sayan-babur ettu jibh horkechhe ar omni tumi aoaj dichchho? Galbhora
atogulo kotha shunte pelaam amra shejonyo ektu credit debe na?
Indranil.
Jagdish Bisa
Kaberi asks:
> What is "biplobi"?
Subversive.
-Jagdish (my two cents) Bisa
> --
> ________________ _/-\________
> /|\ | / /| /| |
> \| | \ \| \| |
> *
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4cc06r$h...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>> Biplob jodi swawambhu, tabe social change ana niye faltu matha ghamiye
>> ki labh?
SB> driven by hunger. To me, such a state of affairs is intolerable. A
SB> society which allows things like this to go on is intolerable. A society
SB> where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
SB> brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
SB> intolerable. I,personally, cannot be happy living in a world where such
SB> things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
Tahole Sayan-babu apni keno USA-te boshe shukaddo khachhen? Eto gorib
lokera khete pachhe na aar apni USA-te boshe PhD korchhen, eta ektu
luxurious hoye jachhe na? :-) Dekho tomar self-criticism-er jukti-ta
oshombhob bhalo, kintu example-gulo dekhchhi onno-der opor diye
chalachho? Eta keno bhai?
Bujhle Sayan, darun ekta reasoning khara korechho. Basically,
"shobi-i maya!" :-) Tai na? Tahol-e biplob-fiplob maro guli.
-Shubu
PS: Kana-ghusho shunchhi je apni Gandhi-r self-sacrifice-e bishhash
kornen. To ekbar deshe-r unnonti korar jonno desh-e fir-e jan na
PhD guli mere. Parben? :-)
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4cbenp$9...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, Sharmila Mukherjee <sm> writes:
SM> Aare aare, aapnara to saree aar salwar-kameez niye aamaon
SM> discussion shuru kore diyechen jano eguli pora aapnader onekdiner
SM> obbhesh, :) :).
Du-din bad-e biye. Eshob na janle je bou petabe! Tar upor dekhate
hob-e to e juger chhelera darun sensitive bou-er problem-troblem
niye!! :-)
-Shubu
sayan bhattacharyya
>sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
>
> ki labh?
Perhaps I shouldn't answer your question, because, as Saugata rightly
said, "Apratim shudhu chhyablami kore" :-)
Anyway, here's a serous answer : a mass movement in history is always a
spontaneous phenomenon __in the large__ . But, the individuals participating
in the movement have their own individual reasons for doing so. These reasons
add up and interact in various ways to form the large-scale movement.
Chaos theory, complexity theory kichhu kichhu poRechho nischoy-i? In a
chaotic system, the large-scale phenomenon taking place often doesn't
have an easily identifiable __origin__ . But the micro-events constituting
the large phenomenon are all easily explainable. This is the beauty of
non-linear dynamic systems.
As to why individual people do (or do not do) the things they end up
doing, who can tell __why__ ? Everyone has their own reason for doing
so. I can only speak about my own reasons. Perhaps you will say that
I am being overly sentimental, but I can't help it : this is just the
way I feel. Yesterday when talking with you on the phone you mentioned
how you have seen people die of starvation in the colony of beggars
that lived across the street from your house in Calcutta, and how you
saw mothers snatching away food from the mouths of their children,
driven by hunger. To me, such a state of affairs is intolerable. A
society which allows things like this to go on is intolerable. A society
where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
intolerable. I,personally, cannot be happy living in a world where such
things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
I hope I have answered your questions, and I am fairly certain that
I would be ridiculed and called hypocritical and heaven knows what else
for saying this. But I have tried to speak sincerely about what I feel
and why I feel the way I feel.
-Sayan.
Sambit Basu
[...]
>Once again, I am claiming NO moral high ground for myself. Let this be
>clear once and for all.
Once again, I am asking you, WHY NOT?
>-Sayan.
Regards,
Sambit
sayan bhattacharyya
Sambit Basu <sam...@gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>>Once again, I am claiming NO moral high ground for myself. Let this be
>>clear once and for all.
>
> Once again, I am asking you, WHY NOT?
Because I do not practise what I preach. As Shubu rightly pointed out
in this thread. All I have done so far is talk. I haven't actually
done anything about the things that I talk about. It may even be true
that I am a hypocrite and all this talk is just a way of assuaging
my conscience by pretending that I am doing something useful whereas
I am not. So the question of claiming any moral high ground does not
arise. The criticism that I direct to others also applies to myself.
That's why.
-Sayan.
Sambit Basu
>>>Once again, I am claiming NO moral high ground for myself. Let this be
>>>clear once and for all.
>>
>> Once again, I am asking you, WHY NOT?
>Because I do not practise what I preach. As Shubu rightly pointed out
>in this thread. All I have done so far is talk. I haven't actually
>done anything about the things that I talk about.
I appreciate your honest admission. However the question
remains that then why do you talk? What is the motivation?
It's not your basic need like food or shelter. Then it
must be, some way or the other, ego-satisfying to you. How?
I am puzzled.
>It may even be true
>that I am a hypocrite and all this talk is just a way of assuaging
>my conscience by pretending that I am doing something useful whereas
>I am not.
EVEN if this is true, since you have seen thru' it, it
cannot be ego-satisfying to you unless you are a masochist.
>So the question of claiming any moral high ground does not
>arise. The criticism that I direct to others also applies to myself.
>That's why.
Thanks. But your well-intended reply puzzling me even more.
Care to help?
>-Sayan.
Regards,
Sambit
ps. Please reply on SCB. A sudden eMail to pull a
curtain on the "discussion" is very frustrating.
Raghu Seshadri
: >> Personally, I feel sari's are very restrictive for one's movements,
: >> but then again that's probably what our male ancestors in our
: >> patriarchal society wanted anyway.
: RS> You obviously haven't been to the countryside, where
: [bla bla deleted]
: RS> at all.
: Note the word "personally" above. Let me put it this way. Sarees are
: more restrictive than trousers/shirts and salwar-kameez. You can
: argue endlessly whether certain styles of wearing sarees is less
: restrictive or not, or whether women manage saree well or not, but the
: fact remains that they can't beat the salwar-kameez.
Isn't this mere assertion without anything to back it
up with ?
: PS: Don't jump to conlcusions about my experience with the
: countryside.
So you have seen women doing all kinds of
physical activities perfectly well with
a sari, and it made no impact on your
preconceived notions ? If your own eyes
didn't convince you, my words cannot do
better.
RS
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4casgf$h...@cony.gsf.de>, in...@cony.gsf.de (Probal Sengupta) writes:
PS> Shubu. Tumi tomaar upaarjito taakaa-te Kolkata giye ek sitting-e Rs 2000
PS> uriye phurti korechho, besh korechho. Sheta SCB-te dhaak pitiye prochhar
PS> naa korle ki cholchhilo na?
First, dhak petanor jonne ekebareyi post korini. I posted the reviews
so that people know about the existence of three new excellent
restaurants in Calcutta. Adding the price is a very normal thing to
do when you recommend a restaurant (i.e. if you have read reviews of
other restaurants.) You could easily check out Bedwin that is in the
lower price range and serves the best Biryani that I have ever had.
Second, I didn't realize that Zarang is an expensive restaurant for
people living abroad. $65 for five people (with drinks) is not a lot,
if you are in the US. Any medium-priced restaurant will charge you
$13 per head (with tax and tips) for dinner. I eat out regularly and
an average dinner costs anywhere between $6 - $15 without drinks. And
mind it, I am a poor graduate student (but of course without any
obligation).
Third, rupees have almost no value in Calcutta today. That partially
reflects how expensive things have become in Calcutta. We convert it
in dollars, so its not a big deal for us. But it may not be so for
people (include my parents), who earn in rupees.
PS> Anyoder kothaa jaaninaa. Aami jodi orokom
PS> gota koyek phurti kori, maash maaine-ti ure jaabe,
Tahole bolte chaichhen apni bair-e khan na? Sayan, tomar ekjon bhalo
bondhu jutlo. :-)
PS> Next time Kolkata gele tomaar phurti koraar group-e aamaake-o include
PS> koro bhaai. Parer poyeshaay Bilaati phurti amaar khub pachhondo.
Bilaati to noi. Ekebare khati moglai khana!! :-) Even all the drinks
are domestic products. No imports!!
PS> Badole aami naa hoy tomaake EC-Market-er Boudir dokaan-er ruti aar
PS> chicken curry treat korbo. Ki, raaji?
Deal. :-) Gota kotok peyaj aar lonka pawa jab-e to? Ohe Anindya,
IITK-er gate-r bair-er shei liver curry aar fulkopir porota mon-e
por-e? :-)
Sharmila Mukherjee
>Note the word "personally" above. Let me put it this way. Sarees are
>more restrictive than trousers/shirts and salwar-kameez. You can
>argue endlessly whether certain styles of wearing sarees is less
>restrictive or not, or whether women manage saree well or not, but the
>fact remains that they can't beat the salwar-kameez.
>
Aare aare, aapnara to saree aar salwar-kameez niye aamaon discussion shuru kore diyechen jano eguli pora aapnader onekdiner obbhesh, :) :). Do you
think I might put in a word here as a regular-wearer of the above? You are right Shububabu, salwar-kameez is definitely less restrictive than a
saree; especially if you are riding a bike. On the same note, trousers/jeans are even better whch is why most Indian women prefer the latter. And
unlike in India, no eyebrows are raised and no cat-calls follow you when you are walking down a busy street here in the US, :)
Sudeshna Das
: Sudeshna Das (sude...@bu.edu) wrote:
: : sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: : : Biplob karo hat dhore ase na. Biplob ekta prakritik ghotonar moto,
: : : jemon bhumikompo ba kalboishakhi. Se sworaT ebong swoyombhu.
: : Biplob jodi swawambhu, tabe social change ana niye faltu matha ghamiye
: : ki labh?
: Sayan-babur ettu jibh horkechhe ar omni tumi aoaj dichchho? Galbhora
: atogulo kotha shunte pelaam amra shejonyo ektu credit debe na?
Awoaj dile aro galbhara ekgada katha shunte pabo (shab tuke rakhi,
deshe giye bolte habe na America-te ki shikhlam?) - she janyei to.
Credit to dichchhi-i ...
: Indranil.
Apratim.
sayan bhattacharyya
Sambit Basu <sam...@gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>
> I appreciate your honest admission. However the question
> remains that then why do you talk? What is the motivation?
I find that talking about things important to me helps me to focus my
ideas better, rather than just thinking about them. Also on s.c.b. there
are quite a few intelligent people (Apratim, Indranil, and you yourself,
among others) who constantly critique what I write. These people are also
very unforgiving of cant and ill-thought-out statements, which forces me
to think through my ideas to a much greater length than I otherwise would
have, and to identify my own inconsistencies.
This I find useful. Perhaps all this will somehow help me to chart a course
for the future. Perhaps it will not. Who knows?
Satisfied?
-Sayan.
sayan bhattacharyya
Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Bhari bhalo laglo eshob jene, kintu bangla amar proshno-tar uttor
> pelam na. Abar boli. Biplob jodi swamyambhu hoi, tobuo
> ki amake society change kara niye bhabna chinta korte habe?
Are you using "korte hobe" in a normative sense? In the sense of
"kora uchit" ? That is dangerous ground which I would rather not
tread (remember "moral imperative" :-) ?)
The __Bhagavadgita__ is by and large putrid and racist crap, but it
does have some nice metaphors (as well as some excellent poetry). One
metaphor from the first chapter of the said book is rather applicable
here. Even if Arjuna does not fight, the Kurukshetra war will still
happen, and those destined to die will still die. But Arjuna should
fight, because that is his __swodhormo__ (an untranslatable word).
The situation here is similar. Irrespective of whether we as individuals
support or oppose it, change will surely come (not by divine ordinance,
but because it is historically ordained). BUT, we as individuals should
also get off the fence and practise our __swodhormo__, which in this
case means following the dictates of our reason, or perhaps our heart,
because the heart also has its reasons which Reason does not know of.
I am taking a leave of absence from the net for some time. This is
going to be my last posting for a while.
Regards,
-Sayan.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ichchhe kore, onyo ekTa akash dekhi,
ichchhe kore, sobar du-hat bhore uTHook,
sobar rannaghore bhater gondho chhuTook,
ichchhe kore ...
(Sumon Chattopadhyay)
Apratim Sarkar
>In article <4cbrki$i...@news.bu.edu>, Sudeshna Das <sude...@bu.edu> wrote:
>>sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
>>
>> Biplob jodi swawambhu, tabe social change ana niye faltu matha ghamiye
>> ki labh?
>
>said, "Apratim shudhu chhyablami kore" :-)
Inconsistency dekhalam, omni sheta chhyablamo hoye gelo? Ekei ki
bale debate, Sayan? :-)
>Anyway, here's a serous answer : a mass movement in history is always a
>spontaneous phenomenon __in the large__ . But, the individuals participating
>in the movement have their own individual reasons for doing so. These reasons
>add up and interact in various ways to form the large-scale movement.
>
>Chaos theory, complexity theory kichhu kichhu poRechho nischoy-i? In a
>chaotic system, the large-scale phenomenon taking place often doesn't
>have an easily identifiable __origin__ . But the micro-events constituting
>the large phenomenon are all easily explainable. This is the beauty of
>non-linear dynamic systems.
Bhari bhalo laglo eshob jene, kintu bangla amar proshno-tar uttor
pelam na. Abar boli. Biplob jodi swamyambhu hoi, tobuo
ki amake society change kara niye bhabna chinta korte habe? Naki
rattire ami nake tel diye ghumote pari Jaranj (ki Boston'e Top-of-the-
Hub'e) kheye eshe, e-i bhebe nishchinto theke je biplob nijer
rasta nijei dekhe nite parbe?
Jodi na pari, jodi amonti korle biplob'r chance kome jai, tabe ar
biplob swayambhu holo ki kore? Dekho bhai, biplob jodi swayambhu hoi
tabe ami tar pechhone faltu shomoi nashto korte chai na - o pet
kharap'r moto jabe habe tabe habe amar haat nei - ar jodi na
hoi tabe tumi ager post'e dhopiyechho. Thik thak balo kholsha kore.
>As to why individual people do (or do not do) the things they end up
>doing, who can tell __why__ ? Everyone has their own reason for doing
>so. I can only speak about my own reasons. Perhaps you will say that
>I am being overly sentimental, but I can't help it : this is just the
>way I feel. Yesterday when talking with you on the phone you mentioned
>how you have seen people die of starvation in the colony of beggars
>that lived across the street from your house in Calcutta, and how you
>saw mothers snatching away food from the mouths of their children,
>driven by hunger. To me, such a state of affairs is intolerable.
Eto obdhi thik chhilo.
>A
>society which allows things like this to go on is intolerable.
"Society" ar "allow", e katha ki anarchist'r mukhe manai, Sayan?
>A society
>where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
>brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
>intolerable. I,personally, cannot be happy living in a world where such
>things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
>
>I hope I have answered your questions, and I am fairly certain that
>I would be ridiculed and called hypocritical and heaven knows what else
>for saying this. But I have tried to speak sincerely about what I feel
>and why I feel the way I feel.
Tumi to bhaloi bolechho, for once onner ki kara uchit ta na bole
tumi nije ki bhabo ta niye katha bolechho - excellent start for
a new year. Shudhu o-i "society allow" korbe ki na korbe line-ta-te
eshe as usual ektu domain'r baire katha bolechho. Ta thik achhe,
o tuku maap kore deowa jai. Parer post'e shudhre niye. Mone rekho
anarchist'r khatai society'r adhikar (ba sarkar'r adhikar) oti
shamanya. O line'e gele dekhte dekhte statism'e pNouchhe jabe.
>-Sayan.
Apratim.
--
Bhai kare tai aaj shoriye dite Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
Kauke| Oke chaine du:kho dite| are my own and shouldn't be construed in
- Amiyo Chakrabarty. any way to represent that of my employer.
Indranil DasGupta
: Indranil Saugata'ke bolechhe:
: : PS: Apnar `crinjon-kriya' kamon cholchhe? Shokaal-bikel `cringe' kore
: : cholechhen to? Chaliye jan. Mukhosrir arektu unnoti holei Sambit-er
: : cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
: : phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
: Notun bachhare Saugata'r kapal to khule gelo dekhchhi! Ta, full length
: feature hochchhe na informercial?
: Apratim.
Full length cinema. Dui ujbuk-er kahini. Akjon desh-e phire shorkari
chakri nichchhe. Onyojon edeshe-i theke jabe. Akjon biplob niye matha
ghamabar bhan kore, onyojon meye potanor baire apatoto kichhu bhabte pare
na.
Ei niye ghotonar ghonoghota. Dwondo ar crisis. Ki ar bolbo... the script is
almost writing itself! :-)
Chhota raag based gaan raakhchhi. E bishoye tomader shathe poramorsho
korte hobe.
Indranil.
Indranil DasGupta
: driven by hunger. To me, such a state of affairs is intolerable. A
: society which allows things like this to go on is intolerable. A society
: where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
: brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
: intolerable. I,personally, cannot be happy living in a world where such
: things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
You are confusing your emotions with logic (once again) Sayan-babu. You
remind me of educated believers, those who hold graduate degrees in
science and yet believe in superstitions because they have been
conditioned to think like that.
It is another matter that a significant part of those who spend 2000+
at Zaranj probably make the money in unlawful manner. But the
consumption of the food or the expense incurred for it have no bearing
on the lives of the poor people who die of hunger.
What if the food at Zaranj cost only Rs.20? What if the food was not
gourmet food, but something plain and still cost Rs.2000? What makes you
see ghosts when there are none? Is it the quality of the food or is it
the expense incurred by the customer?
Consider this very simple economic activity. A man goes to a
prostitute. Sleeps with her and pays her Rs.2000. Compare this to the man
going to a physiotherapist, getting a back message and paying the
therapist Rs.50. One is considered a luxury. The other is therapy. You
may be psychologically indisposed towards one or another, but both are
similar economic activities. Money for service keeps the money moving.
You should probably get acquainted with the waiters of Zaranj before you
make mindless observations.
Indranil.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4ccoi2$3...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
SB> Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>> Bhari bhalo laglo eshob jene, kintu bangla amar proshno-tar uttor
>> pelam na. Abar boli. Biplob jodi swamyambhu hoi, tobuo
>> ki amake society change kara niye bhabna chinta korte habe?
SB> but because it is historically ordained). BUT, we as individuals should
SB> also get off the fence and practise our __swodhormo__, which in this
SB> case means following the dictates of our reason, or perhaps our heart,
SB> because the heart also has its reasons which Reason does not know of.
Aaare aaare Sayan, ami to jantam tomar shodhormo holo SCB-te biplob
kora. To sheta to bhaloi korchho!! :-)
Sudeshna Das
: sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: : Because I do not practise what I preach.
: Bravo Sayanbabu, bravo. Perhaps we should give you a standing ovation, eh?
: You made it sound so simple! Even stylish!!
Mairi ami-o thik eita bolte jachchhilam! Emon ekjon bondhu achhe
bhabtei garbobodh hoi. Sayan, eta kintu tomar .sig'e lagiye deowa
uchit!
: Indranil.
Apratim.
N. Tiwari
: In article <4cbrki$i...@news.bu.edu>, Sudeshna Das <sude...@bu.edu> wrote:
: >sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: As to why individual people do (or do not do) the things they end up
: doing, who can tell __why__ ? Everyone has their own reason for doing
: so. I can only speak about my own reasons. Perhaps you will say that
: I am being overly sentimental, but I can't help it : this is just the
: way I feel. Yesterday when talking with you on the phone you mentioned
: how you have seen people die of starvation in the colony of beggars
: that lived across the street from your house in Calcutta, and how you
: saw mothers snatching away food from the mouths of their children,
: driven by hunger. To me, such a state of affairs is intolerable. A
: society which allows things like this to go on is intolerable. A society
: where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
: brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
: intolerable. I,personally, cannot be happy living in a world where such
: things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
: I hope I have answered your questions, and I am fairly certain that
: I would be ridiculed and called hypocritical and heaven knows what else
: for saying this. But I have tried to speak sincerely about what I feel
: and why I feel the way I feel.
: -Sayan.
I agree 100%. And in fact, if such inequities are not taken care of,
there is a very good chance that people start taking law (!!) in their
own hands. And in that case, the privileged (for right/wrong reasons)
can complain, but there complaints will largely go unheard.
I know of one person personally, who was very rich, and was brutally
murdered in S. Delhi by a bunch of poor people living aroud his house.
The event is a recent one.
So, it is
in the interest of both (for moral as well as material reasons) that
inequities as glaring as we see in our India, need to be evened out.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
=====================================================
750 Tall Oaks Drive 118 Patton Hall
Apt. # 3600 I Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA 24060. Blacksburg, VA 24061.
(540)-951-3979 (540)-231-4611
=====================================================
Indranil DasGupta
: Because I do not practise what I preach.
Bravo Sayanbabu, bravo. Perhaps we should give you a standing ovation, eh?
You made it sound so simple! Even stylish!!
Indranil.
Raghu Seshadri
: The __Bhagavadgita__ is by and large putrid and racist crap, but it
For a book to be putrid and racist crap by and
large, either of the two must be true -
. the essence of the message must be putrid and racist crap
. a numerical majority of the passages must be putrid
and racist crap
Which of these is true in your estimation ?
Let me be charitable and say that perhaps
you are working with a lousy translation :-)
RS
ps - how come close-minded marxists know more about the
Gita than scholars like Dr Radhakrishnan or savants
like Henry David Thoreau or saints like my
grandmother ?
Apratim Sarkar
>I find that talking about things important to me helps me to focus my
>ideas better, rather than just thinking about them. Also on s.c.b. there
>are quite a few intelligent people (Apratim, Indranil, and you yourself,
>among others) who constantly critique what I write. These people are also
>very unforgiving of cant and ill-thought-out statements, which forces me
>to think through my ideas to a much greater length than I otherwise would
>have, and to identify my own inconsistencies.
>
>This I find useful. Perhaps all this will somehow help me to chart a course
>for the future. Perhaps it will not. Who knows?
Amader shabari modhyobayesh dekhte dekhte eshe jachchhe Sayan.
Future'r ar beshi baki nei. Ja kara'r kore felo ekhoni; amake phone'e
jemon bolechhile kuRi bachhar USA'te training period'e theke tar pore
India'te fire social change - o line'e thakle tomar course chart kara
jodi ba holo, implement kara ar holo na. Tabe hNyn, kuRi bachhor dhore
inconsistency identify korte thakle (kintu inconsistency dur karbar
kono chesta na korle) besh bharonto chehara'r ekta list pabe. Kintu
kuRi bachhar dhore ki ar amra thakbo e deshe? Guiness'e tomar naam
berole maximum desh'e ekta party dite parbo, o-i porjonto.
>Satisfied?
Chaitali Basu
> >sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
> >
> Yesterday when talking with you on the phone you mentioned
> how you have seen people die of starvation in the colony of beggars
> that lived across the street from your house in Calcutta, and how you
> saw mothers snatching away food from the mouths of their children,
> driven by hunger. To me, such a state of affairs is intolerable. A
> society which allows things like this to go on is intolerable. A society
> where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
> brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
> intolerable. I,personally, cannot be happy living in a world where such
> things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
I think many people will share this sentiment with you. But what I fail
to understand is "who will change this society?" In the 5-6 years of my
college and university life I found the people who talked of this change
have themselves got completely changed. But not even .1% of the changes
that they talked about have taken place. I am asking you a sincere
question of how do you really think you can change this society...meaning
some steps that you can execute yourself without saying that "we have to
get together and as more people get convinced the society will change
through mass movement" and things like that.
Regards.
Chaitali
Sambit Basu
>I find that talking about things important to me helps me to focus my
>ideas better, rather than just thinking about them. Also on s.c.b. there
>are quite a few intelligent people (Apratim, Indranil, and you yourself,
>among others) who constantly critique what I write. These people are also
>very unforgiving of cant and ill-thought-out statements, which forces me
>to think through my ideas to a much greater length than I otherwise would
>have, and to identify my own inconsistencies.
Tahole amra-o biplob-e sahajyo korchhi bolun? Ashol somoy-e
bhule jaaben na jano!
>This I find useful. Perhaps all this will somehow help me to chart a course
>for the future. Perhaps it will not. Who knows?
>Satisfied?
Thik noy. Tobe apnake aar e niye ei muhurye ghNatachchhi na.
Sayanbabu, apnar to koto bishoy-e poDashuno. Maajhe maajhe
ektu onyo kotha-o bishodbhabe bolun na!
Khela na kore shudhu kaaj korle je loke chhya chhya korbe, sheta
ki bhalo hobe? (kritogNyota swikaar: Satyajit Ray; Gugababa).
>-Sayan.
Regards,
Sambit
N. Tiwari
: : The __Bhagavadgita__ is by and large putrid and racist crap, but it
: For a book to be putrid and racist crap by and
: large, either of the two must be true -
Where does the race element come in Gita.
I am wondering. Will Sayan babu care to
inform.
BTW, race element does come in the collected
works of Marx and Engels. And they do qualify
for the label 'racist'.
sayan bhattacharyya
Indranil DasGupta <dgu...@buphy.bu.edu> wrote:
>sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
>
>: society which allows things like this to go on is intolerable. A society
>: where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
>: brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
>: intolerable. I,personally, cannot be happy living in a world where such
>: things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
>
There is no confusion. Whoever said anything about logic? Apratim asked me
why I think that society needs change. The above is the reason why I think
society needs change. I was simply answering his question.
I will be away for some time, so I can't participate in s.c.b. for a while
in the future. Regards to all and see you all later.
-Sayan.
sayan bhattacharyya
Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
> Future'r ar beshi baki nei. Ja kara'r kore felo ekhoni; amake phone'e
> jemon bolechhile kuRi bachhar USA'te training period'e theke tar pore
> India'te fire social change - o line'e thakle tomar course chart kara
> jodi ba holo, implement kara ar holo na.
When did I say anything about twenty years? Or are you suggesting that I'll
need twenty more years to finish my PhD??! Heaven help me! :-)
-Sayan.
Sambit Basu
sude...@bu.edu (Sudeshna Das) writes:
>Indranil Saugata'ke bolechhe:
>: PS: Apnar `crinjon-kriya' kamon cholchhe? Shokaal-bikel `cringe' kore
>: cholechhen to? Chaliye jan. Mukhosrir arektu unnoti holei Sambit-er
>: cinemay naambhumikay namano hobe apnake. (Cinemar naam thik kore
>: phelechhi Sambit. `Chutiya dekhe chinun').
> Notun bachhare Saugata'r kapal to khule gelo dekhchhi! Ta, full length
> feature hochchhe na informercial?
> Apratim.
Full length maane? ShaDe baish reel-er boi. IDG je chhota
raag-bhittik gaan-er kotha bolechhe, sheta thik noy. Bhebe
dekhlum duto raagasroyee, akta kirtan (michhil-e gaowa hobe),
akta Bappi LahiRi-marka (biplobi-r prem dekhate) aar baaki
duto akdom swodeshi-brand jeebon-mukhi.
Duto laach thakchhe. Akta rap-nrityo aar akta khyamta (eta
Soumitrababu-ke khushi korte, "root" chenate).
Akta chase-scene aachhe. Sheta surprise.
Tinte jhaD-pit. With bhishum-bhishum ghNushir aaowaj. Graam
aachhe, biplobini-r chhelebela. Capitalist villain ye korar
cheshta korbe, biplobi eshe bNachabe.
pahaD aachhe (budget permit korle Alps-e shooting). borof-e
goDa-goDi kheye biplobi-biplobini pilu-te prem-er gaan gaibe.
Aar shob sheshe happy ending aachhe. Bishwo-shuddhu lok-er
aar kono sreni-parthokyo nei. Biplob shob parthokyo ghuchiye
diyechhe. Keu-i aar khete pay na.
Udiyomaan chitro-porichalok hote cheye,
Sambit
ps. Amra akhono suggestion nichchhi. Suggestion grihito hole
credit title-e naam jaabe. Sutorang taDataDi suggestion
pathan. SCB-tei. Amake akta cc kore dite bhulben na, karon
amar server bhoyanok khamkheyalipona korchhe.
Sudeshna Das
: Full length cinema. Dui ujbuk-er kahini. Akjon desh-e phire shorkari
: chakri nichchhe.
Kintu ta bole Europe ar North America'te chakri'r apply korte
chharchhe na.
: Onyojon edeshe-i theke jabe.
Sheta bodhhai bhaloi korbe.
: Akjon biplob niye matha
: ghamabar bhan kore,
Ar bank'e prochur taka jamai.
: onyojon meye potanor baire apatoto kichhu bhabte pare
: na.
Purono problem.
Apratim.
sayan bhattacharyya
Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
>sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
>
>: The __Bhagavadgita__ is by and large putrid and racist crap, but it
>
>For a book to be putrid and racist crap by and
>large, either of the two must be true -
>
> . the essence of the message must be putrid and racist crap
> . a numerical majority of the passages must be putrid
> and racist crap
>
>Which of these is true in your estimation ?
No sooner had I eluded the frying-pan (or should I say grill) of interlocutors
like Apratim, Sambit et al on this thread than I find myself in the fire lit
by Mr. Seshadri! :-)
Ok, here's a serious answer. It is putrid because its central philosophy
is that everything is _divinely_ predestined, which to me is a very
anti-humanist message. It also contains a lot of spiritual hokey such as
the indestructibility of the soul, etc, etc. As metaphors they are fine,
and as I said before, I find the poetry (especially in the first chapter
and the vishwaroop-dorshon chapter, very beautiful). But on a literalist
level of interpretation, the message is unacceptable.
It is racist because in one of the later chapters it explicitly says that
the root of all evil in society is "miscegenation between races"
(_varnasankar_). I cannot imagine a more racist and repugnant statement.
But to Vyasa's credit, it must be said that most scholars regard the
later chapters as very late interpolations from the Gupta or post-Gupta
era.
>Let me be charitable and say that perhaps
>you are working with a lousy translation :-)
>
I read it in a bilingual edition (Sanskrit/Bengali) which also had annotations
in Bengali. The translation was done by a Bengali scholar called Jagadish Bose
(not the scientist J.C. Bose -- just someone homonymous). This translation is
quite popular in Bengal.
>ps - how come close-minded marxists know more about the
> Gita than scholars like Dr Radhakrishnan or savants
> like Henry David Thoreau or saints like my
> grandmother ?
I am neither a marxist, nor a scholar or a savant; nor am I your grandmother.
As a result I must humbly confess to my inability to answer your question. :-)
Incidentally, it is interesting that you should mention your grandmother.
Curiously, the reason I read the __Gita__ was because of my late grandmother.
She went blind in old age and when I was a teenager, it was my task to read
the __Gita__ aloud to her every evening, a task which was very pleasurable
to me. Your post suddenly brought back fond and affectionate memories of that
time. Hope you'll excuse this digression into personal reminiscence.
-Sayan.
Sudeshna Das
: Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
: >
: > Bhari bhalo laglo eshob jene, kintu bangla amar proshno-tar uttor
: > pelam na. Abar boli. Biplob jodi swamyambhu hoi, tobuo
: > ki amake society change kara niye bhabna chinta korte habe?
: Are you using "korte hobe" in a normative sense? In the sense of
: "kora uchit" ? That is dangerous ground which I would rather not
: tread (remember "moral imperative" :-) ?)
Very good. Shikhchho tahole kichhu kichhu. :-)
Abashyo ami normative sense'e katha-ta use korini. Amar point
chhilo, dhara jak biplob sammondhe ami undecided. Ekhon tumi amake
biplob bikri korte ele. Amar prothom proshno habe (jehetu ami bejai
kNuRe), amake na pele nitanto-i ki cholbe na? Ami na hoi ektu
SCB poRi? Ekhon jodi tumi balo cholbe, karan biplob swayambhu,
tabe ami SCB'i poRbo, biplob niye bhalo mondo kichhui bhabte boshbo
na. Even biplob sammondhe a priori pro/anti-feeling thakleo na, karan
swayambhu jakhan, takhan amar hat'r baire, ami tatokkhon ektu ghumiye
nei.
: The __Bhagavadgita__ is by and large putrid and racist crap, but it
: does have some nice metaphors (as well as some excellent poetry). One
: metaphor from the first chapter of the said book is rather applicable
: here. Even if Arjuna does not fight, the Kurukshetra war will still
: happen, and those destined to die will still die. But Arjuna should
: fight, because that is his __swodhormo__ (an untranslatable word).
: The situation here is similar. Irrespective of whether we as individuals
: support or oppose it, change will surely come (not by divine ordinance,
: but because it is historically ordained).
Tabe ki biplob swayambhu? Ekta simple yes/no answer chaichhi kaddin
dhore ar kato ghorabe Sayan?
: BUT, we as individuals should
: also get off the fence and practise our __swodhormo__, which in this
: case means following the dictates of our reason, or perhaps our heart,
: because the heart also has its reasons which Reason does not know of.
Amar reason bole swayambhu byapar-shyapar niye faltu shomoi nashto
kara uchit noi. Kintu biplob swayambhu kina sheta to age jante habe.
: I am taking a leave of absence from the net for some time. This is
: going to be my last posting for a while.
Come on, Sambit tomake emon kichhu chepe dhoreni je tumi ekebare
shab marble pocket'e pure "Khelbo na!" bole thNot fuliye chole jabe!
: Regards,
: -Sayan.
Apratim.
sayan bhattacharyya
Indranil DasGupta <dgu...@buphy.bu.edu> wrote:
>sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
>
>: where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
>: brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
>: intolerable.
>
>at Zaranj probably make the money in unlawful manner. But the
>consumption of the food or the expense incurred for it have no bearing
>on the lives of the poor people who die of hunger.
>
I understand your point very well. Please re-read what I said.
(1) I was NOT condemning the __people__ who are eating at Zaranj.
(2) I was NOT condemning the management of Zaranj.
(3) I was NOT even condemning the __act___ of eating at Zaranj at Rs. 2000+.
What I WAS and IS condemning was the __social structure__ in which
economic inequities of such monstrous dimensions exist. A society in
which a child starves to death while some people can afford the money
to spend Rs. 2000 on drinks and appetizers __cannot__ be a society that
I will like to live in. No amount of rationalizations on your part,
Chicago school or Boston school or whatever, can change this incontrovertible
fact for me.
Some years ago I read a poem by the German poet Erich Fried, which summed up
what I feel very well :
Child
-----
Because his spine is twisted
because he is past shouting
because he stinks
because he is too weak
to go on living
the system
that is to blame
shall also not go on living
Because his spine is twisted
your explanations are twisted
Because he is past shouting
you cannot shout him down
Because he stinks
your explanations stink
-Sayan.
Raghu Seshadri
: >For a book to be putrid and racist crap by and
: >large, either of the two must be true -
: >
: > . the essence of the message must be putrid and racist crap
: > . a numerical majority of the passages must be putrid
: > and racist crap
: >
: >Which of these is true in your estimation ?
: Ok, here's a serious answer. It is putrid because its central philosophy
: is that everything is _divinely_ predestined, which to me is a very
: anti-humanist message.
This can get interminable quickly, so I will
quit after suggesting that your understanding
falls far short of the actual meaning. For
one thing, if everything is divinely ordained,
why should Arjuna be appealed to, to give up
his diffidence and reluctance and start
performing his duty ? Does it make any sense ?
The essence of Gita is Karma Yoga, the yoga
of action. It is the opposite of the fatalism
that you believe it to be. You couldn't
be more wrong if you tried !
: It also contains a lot of spiritual hokey such as
: the indestructibility of the soul, etc, etc. As metaphors they are fine,
: and as I said before, I find the poetry (especially in the first chapter
: and the vishwaroop-dorshon chapter, very beautiful). But on a literalist
: level of interpretation, the message is unacceptable.
You can have your reasons for not accepting
the indestructibility of the soul, I have
nothing to say about that, but why would you
call it putrid ? Why not just say "unbelievable",
"hokey" and leave it at that ? Why do you need to use this
unacceptably ugly word ?
Do you call all theories that you disagree with "putrid" ?
What about Dalton's theory of the atom,
Parmanides's theory of the river, Aristotle's
theories on masses, Mohammed's theory of
a how mountains balance out valleys, Buddha's theory
on dependent co-origination, Nanak's idea
of a Holy Name ? Are they all putrid too ?
: It is racist because in one of the later chapters it explicitly says that
: the root of all evil in society is "miscegenation between races"
: (_varnasankar_). I cannot imagine a more racist and repugnant statement.
: But to Vyasa's credit, it must be said that most scholars regard the
: later chapters as very late interpolations from the Gupta or post-Gupta
: era.
Besides, you said "by and large" and in support
cite one shloka. Is that your definition of
by and large ? How come the numerous other
shlokas which stress that everyone, regardless
of origin, is entitled to liberation, don't
contribute to your understanding of "by and
large" ?
By fixating on one shloka while ignoring dozens
which preach the opposite message, you
sound suspiciously like an unobjective
person with an ax to grind, someone merely
trying to smear unjustifiably, with no
regard to the truth. I am sure you'd want
to reconsider this.
: >Let me be charitable and say that perhaps
: >you are working with a lousy translation :-)
: >
: I read it in a bilingual edition (Sanskrit/Bengali) which also had annotations
: in Bengali. The translation was done by a Bengali scholar called Jagadish Bose
: (not the scientist J.C. Bose -- just someone homonymous). This translation is
: quite popular in Bengal.
Alas, then, we cannot blame a bad translation for
our defective understanding, can we ? Of the 700
shlokas, please count how many refer to varna sankara
and tell me if that constitutes "by and large".
Count how many, otoh, talk about how liberation
is open to all.
: >ps - how come close-minded marxists know more about the
: > Gita than scholars like Dr Radhakrishnan or savants
: > like Henry David Thoreau or saints like my
: > grandmother ?
: I am neither a marxist, nor a scholar or a savant; nor am I your grandmother.
: As a result I must humbly confess to my inability to answer your question. :-)
:-)
: Incidentally, it is interesting that you should mention your grandmother.
: Curiously, the reason I read the __Gita__ was because of my late grandmother.
: She went blind in old age and when I was a teenager, it was my task to read
: the __Gita__ aloud to her every evening, a task which was very pleasurable
: to me. Your post suddenly brought back fond and affectionate memories of that
: time. Hope you'll excuse this digression into personal reminiscence.
I hope you read it again, then, for yourself
this time; I have problems with the varna sankara
passage myself, as well as a few others.
But those are not the essence of the philosophy
at all; the spirit of the hindu method is
to take what appeals to you and helps you
towards enlightenment and leave the rest
behind. It is possible to prune it physically,
but why bother ? The spirit of intolerance
that will engulf the One True Wayists
is far worse than living with some unacceptable
passages. I also wouldn't call something
I merely don't agree with "putrid". I am
sure I find a lot of what you say unreasonable,
unacceptable or plain wrong, but calling
it "putrid" would show an intolerance of
temper, an insolence, an ugliness and
a needless profanity that will not contribute
to a useful dialog.
Regards,
RS
sayan bhattacharyya
Sambit Basu <sam...@gandalf.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> Full length maane? ShaDe baish reel-er boi. IDG je chhota
> raag-bhittik gaan-er kotha bolechhe, sheta thik noy. Bhebe
> dekhlum duto raagasroyee, akta kirtan (michhil-e gaowa hobe),
> akta Bappi LahiRi-marka (biplobi-r prem dekhate) aar baaki
> duto akdom swodeshi-brand jeebon-mukhi.
Se ki, Sambit je chhoRa-Ta likhechhilo oi-Te thakbe na? "Biplobi mon
sorboneshe..." etc.? OTa to dibyi dorbari kanaRa-te sur diye gaoa jete
pare!
-Sayan.
Apratim Sarkar
>
> Duto laach thakchhe. Akta rap-nrityo aar akta khyamta (eta
> Soumitrababu-ke khushi korte, "root" chenate).
Ota tinte karo. Ekta SNaotali-o hok.
> Udiyomaan chitro-porichalok hote cheye,
> Sambit
Puro jamati script mone hochchhe! Aro details mathai ele janabo.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4cgrhk$s...@sanews1.morgan.com>, sut...@is.morgan.com (Sutapa Chattopadhyay) writes:
Targeted at Sayan:
SC> Not only that, your presence in the US to get a PhD seems to be
SC> at odds with your stated goal. I don't mean to "grill" you. Just
SC> seems strange and odd after all that you have said here. Perhaps
SC> you like the intellectual challenge and all that. But you
SC> don't seem to like anything about the "West" and anything
SC> about this country, it's economic foundations or anything else.
SC> Are you happy where you are? Does living in a commune in Michigan
SC> hide you from the realities? Or is that the next best thing?
SC> What will getting a PhD buy you since you are not interested
SC> in working for any corporation (and their stockholders). (This
SC> is in reference to the article where you wrote that all corporations
SC> and stockholders are greedy and bad).
I think Chaitali's question is more pertinent here.
Bottomline is: most of us are not Gandhis. We (Indians and NRIs
alike) pursue our own pleasures and chase our own personal dreams
(e.g. Sayan's PhD). At the same time we do want to do something for
India (whether out of love or guilt is irrelevant). I think this
__massive__ resource should be exploited. Sayan, if you want change,
this is one place you can look for. Every small contribution (not
necessarily monetary) adds up.
Indranil DasGupta
: In article <4cenaq$s...@news.bu.edu>,
: Indranil DasGupta <dgu...@buphy.bu.edu> wrote:
: >sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: >
: I understand your point very well. Please re-read what I said.
: (1) I was NOT condemning the __people__ who are eating at Zaranj.
: (2) I was NOT condemning the management of Zaranj.
: (3) I was NOT even condemning the __act___ of eating at Zaranj at Rs. 2000+.
: What I WAS and IS condemning was the __social structure__ in which
: economic inequities of such monstrous dimensions exist. A society in
: which a child starves to death while some people can afford the money
: to spend Rs. 2000 on drinks and appetizers __cannot__ be a society that
: I will like to live in. No amount of rationalizations on your part,
: Chicago school or Boston school or whatever, can change this incontrovertible
: fact for me.
Inequities are often unfair. Ideally, everyone should be able to spend
some money in Zaranj. And the only way we can come close to this goal in
our country is by widespread use of birth control and by encouraging
private enterprise.
Don't let that hungry child be born.
Indranil.
Apratim Sarkar
>
>>>>>> In article <4ccoi2$3...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>
>
>>> Bhari bhalo laglo eshob jene, kintu bangla amar proshno-tar uttor
>>> pelam na. Abar boli. Biplob jodi swamyambhu hoi, tobuo
>>> ki amake society change kara niye bhabna chinta korte habe?
>
>SB> also get off the fence and practise our __swodhormo__, which in this
>SB> case means following the dictates of our reason, or perhaps our heart,
>SB> because the heart also has its reasons which Reason does not know of.
>
>Aaare aaare Sayan, ami to jantam tomar shodhormo holo SCB-te biplob
>kora. To sheta to bhaloi korchho!! :-)
Ta jodi hoi, tabe ekta katha kintu mantei habe. "Swadharme nidhano
sheryo, parodharmo bhayabaho" - e principle'e Sayan'r bishwas
agadh.
Mairi, seven-pronged attack'r shamne puro Eka Kumbha rakkha kare
nakal BNudigaR!
>-Shubu
Sutapa Chattopadhyay
|> > In article <4cbrki$i...@news.bu.edu>, Sudeshna Das <sude...@bu.edu> wrote:
|> > >sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
|> > >
|> > how you have seen people die of starvation in the colony of beggars
|> > that lived across the street from your house in Calcutta, and how you
|> > saw mothers snatching away food from the mouths of their children,
|> > where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
|> > brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
|> > things happen. That is why I would be happy to see society change.
|>
|> to understand is "who will change this society?" In the 5-6 years of my
|> college and university life I found the people who talked of this change
|> have themselves got completely changed. But not even .1% of the changes
|> that they talked about have taken place. I am asking you a sincere
|> question of how do you really think you can change this society...meaning
|> some steps that you can execute yourself without saying that "we have to
|> get together and as more people get convinced the society will change
|> through mass movement" and things like that.
|>
|> Regards.
|>
|> Chaitali
Not only that, your presence in the US to get a PhD seems to be
at odds with your stated goal. I don't mean to "grill" you. Just
seems strange and odd after all that you have said here. Perhaps
you like the intellectual challenge and all that. But you
don't seem to like anything about the "West" and anything
about this country, it's economic foundations or anything else.
Are you happy where you are? Does living in a commune in Michigan
hide you from the realities? Or is that the next best thing?
What will getting a PhD buy you since you are not interested
in working for any corporation (and their stockholders). (This
is in reference to the article where you wrote that all corporations
and stockholders are greedy and bad).
--
Sutapa Chattopadhyay.
saugata basu
1. sayan posts a comment that some nettors (the iiww or would be iiww)
do not like.
2. the latter group then starts attacking sayan's lifestyle attacking him
and me too of hypocrisy.
3. and then starts the name calling.
this sequence displays a singular lack of maturity of all the participants.
the newsgroup ideally should have a double-blind nature, where ideas and
opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
nettors are not relevant at all. whether sayan or myself or the others
are hypocrites or not should not have anything to do with the responses
to their/my posts. bringing in personal lives can have either of two motives --
1. satisfying ones ego or some weird complexes that some scb nettors apparently
carry along; this i understand and sympathize with, but even then i would
advise counselling rather than posting venom on scb as a kind of release.
2. the responder has nothing at all to say, and is simply vengeful.
whatever it is, i think it is a good idea to refrain from posting in either
case. otherwise, posters like indranil who on rare occasions *do* posts
readable stuff, end up posting rather pathetic drivel like what he has
been posting recently. only one piece of advice for him -- if you want me
to read it keep it short. anything longer than two lines from you these days
gets junked immediately.
saugata.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960103142231.2232B-100000@spcm4>, Chaitali Basu <chaitali@spcm4> writes:
CB> I am asking you a sincere
CB> question of how do you really think you can change this society...meaning
CB> some steps that you can execute yourself without saying that "we have to
CB> get together and as more people get convinced the society will change
CB> through mass movement" and things like that.
Absolutely agreed. As an engineer I tend to think of everything as an
optimization problem. You are an NRI and you want to help. What can
you do? One thing you surely have is a lot more money compared to
Indians in India (on average, that is). Invest it in Indian
companies. Sponsor projects such as the Udang project that tries to
make villages computer literate. Sponsor projects in your own
neighborhood in India (like cleaning it up, removing open drains,
etc.). You will find a lot of honest people are willing to take care
of this if you provide them with the money. These are the baby steps
we need to improve the socio-economic conditions of India today.
And forget all the revolution and "que sara sara" crap. Society
doesn't change overnight. If you try to go and help the jute mill
workers (like some internauts on SCB have dreamt of doing), you will
simply be booted out. Romaticizing about revolution on SCB is fine,
but doesn't work in practice.
Of course, in the mean time, don't forget to enjoy your life (forget
the Gandhian self-sacrifice philosophy), because you have only one
life to live.
Apratim Sarkar
>Indranil DasGupta <dgu...@buphy.bu.edu> wrote:
>
>>: A society
>>: where people wine and dine on Rs. 2000+ at Zaranj while their own
>>: brothers and sisters are dying like flies on the street outside, is
>>: intolerable.
>>
>>It is another matter that a significant part of those who spend 2000+
>>at Zaranj probably make the money in unlawful manner. But the
>>consumption of the food or the expense incurred for it have no bearing
>>on the lives of the poor people who die of hunger.
>>
>
>I understand your point very well. Please re-read what I said.
>
>(1) I was NOT condemning the __people__ who are eating at Zaranj.
>(2) I was NOT condemning the management of Zaranj.
>(3) I was NOT even condemning the __act___ of eating at Zaranj at Rs. 2000+.
>
>What I WAS and IS condemning was the __social structure__ in which
>economic inequities of such monstrous dimensions exist. A society in
>which a child starves to death while some people can afford the money
>to spend Rs. 2000 on drinks and appetizers __cannot__ be a society that
>I will like to live in. No amount of rationalizations on your part,
>Chicago school or Boston school or whatever, can change this incontrovertible
>fact for me.
Keno condemn korchho na? Eder, mane e-i idle rich-der-i ki shab
dosh noi? Era ki samaj'r baire? Bisheshata, eder acharan-i ki
e-i nakkarjanak samajbyabashtha'r janyo dayee noi? Naki barolok bole
eder shat khun maap - shab dosh brihattaro shamajbyabashtha'r jar
59+% kina soshita nipiRito banchiter dal!!
Chhih!
>-Sayan.
saugata basu
: I agree with you.
: The problems in India stem from insular poverty, which can only be removed
: by external aid and fast economic growth. Going back with advanced
: degrees in arcane subjects is not going to solve any problems. Rather, we
i don't agree at all. india does have a massive need for technical expertise,
and people with advanced knowledge in most subjects are needed. whether they
are properly utilized in the current set-up is a different question altogether.
it is a misconception that india already has a huge surplus of well-trained
technical manpower. in actuality, most of this workforce have not been exposed
to modern technology and the current state-of-the-art in their respective
subjects. trained people from abroad will indeed have a lot to contribute.
however, whether are willing to is a different question.
saugata.
R. Ganguli
>Bottomline is: most of us are not Gandhis. We (Indians and NRIs
>alike) pursue our own pleasures and chase our own personal dreams
>(e.g. Sayan's PhD). At the same time we do want to do something for
>India (whether out of love or guilt is irrelevant). I think this
>__massive__ resource should be exploited. Sayan, if you want change,
>this is one place you can look for. Every small contribution (not
>necessarily monetary) adds up.
>
>-Shubu
I agree with you.
The problems in India stem from insular poverty, which can only be removed
by external aid and fast economic growth. Going back with advanced
degrees in arcane subjects is not going to solve any problems. Rather, we
should try to help financially, either through charity or through direct
investment in stock markets. If you follow the later approach, you could
make some money also. The only point of going back is if you can use the
capital from here to start a business or be a venture capitalist.
The `brain drain' thing is a big hoax. Indians back home have more brains than they
need or use. Now that Narsimha Rao has removed the socialist controls,
an influx of money into the country will bring rapid payoff.
As you say, each of us can only do so much, but together the power can be
much greater. We must tap into this organization power, if change is to
be accomplished.
In case anyone is interested, there is an organization called CRY
- standing for Child Relief and You. They have a home page at
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~kripa/cry.html
Check this out. They have articles about CRY from India Today and Business India.
They sell Indian greeting cards which are very good and
cheap. I got some this year and was very satisfied.
Also, they have an arrangement with AT&T by which the company
will contribute 5% of your phone bill towards CRY. If AT&T
is your long distance company, take advantage of this offer and
spread the message. This is at no cost to you.
Ranjan
Apratim Sarkar
Apra.
Indranil DasGupta
[..]
: whatever it is, i think it is a good idea to refrain from posting in either
: case. otherwise, posters like indranil who on rare occasions *do* posts
: readable stuff, end up posting rather pathetic drivel like what he has
: been posting recently. only one piece of advice for him -- if you want me
: to read it keep it short. anything longer than two lines from you these days
: gets junked immediately.
Thanks, Saugata, for not trying to get too cclose. Movie offer still
open. Were you sitting on the sax when you wrote this?Regards,Indranil.
saugata basu
: Saugata:
:
: The above two paragraphs seem contradictory in spirit. Will you now
: claim like Sayan that you don't practise what you preach? :-)
:
: Frankly, Saugata, if you care for constructive criticism, you are as
: much involved in the above as you claim others are.
shubu,
i fully accept responsibility about the above. if you read my posting
carefully you will see that i didn't exclude myself. however, the
reason that instigated me was the fact that it is becoming a common
practice in this newsgroup to respond to sayan's posting
by accusing him of not living upto what he preaches.
this to me is completely ridiculous. sayan is not asking for votes to
become our representatives. he is merely expressing his opinions and
convictions. the responses should have nothing to do with his personal
life.
in any case, in future i promise not to fall into this temptation again.
: Here are couple of your flame baits (which many may interpret not only
: as judgmental but also as very bad forms of personal attack):
:
: ---------------------------------------------------------------------
: "by indian society i am of course not counting people who can blow up
: rs 2000+ for a lunch for five..."
: ---------------------------------------------------------------------
: "kintu amar mone hoi je jara jara ekhane besh semi-permanently ghar
: dhor bedheche ba badhbar plan korche tara ektu ei byapare
: sensitive. jemon dharo tumi, ananish, sambit.. apratim ar indranil'ke
: dhorlamna karan ora chyablamo kore."
: ---------------------------------------------------------------------
actually, in retrospect these two look pretty good to me. i will probably
save them.
good to know that you had a ball over them. i didn't mean to
offend -- only to poke. and the squealing, high pitched, adolescent
response it elicited from some quarters was quite satisfactory.
saugata.
Indranil DasGupta
[..]
: : Ok, here's a serious answer. It is putrid because its central philosophy
: : anti-humanist message.
Not divinely. But physically everything is predestined. More or less.
Indranil.
PS: If you are thinking of objecting, that thought was predestined.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4chr1c$b...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu>, sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
SB> technical manpower. in actuality, most of this workforce have not been exposed
SB> to modern technology and the current state-of-the-art in their respective
SB> subjects. trained people from abroad will indeed have a lot to contribute.
In my opinion, India doesn't need the latest state-of-the-art
technology, simply because she doesn't have the infrastructure to
utilize it.
What India needs is to utilize her in-house capabilities to the full
extent. Example: one asset India has more than any other country is
cheap labor. Instead of mechanizing industries with modern machinery
and throwing people out of jobs, we need more efficient ways of
utilizing this work force. Unfortunately, modern technocrats and
bureaucrats trained in the US (or even in India, e.g. from IITs or
IIMs) don't have the know-how to do this. In the long run we probably
need to move towards more automation, but that change has to slowly
adapt itself to the Indian environement.
A second example would be in the realm of Supercomputers. India
doesn't need the latest and greatest supercomputers (example: those
made by Cray Research Inc. costs around 30 million dollars). India's
own supercomputer -- PARAM -- is quite sufficient for her own needs in
weather prediction, etc.
Yes, India can utilize foreign technocrats and bureaucrats__only__ if
these people know how to do innovations in the Indian environment
under __Indian__ constraints. This may not allow them to directly
apply whatever knowledge/training they acquired from foreign schools.
Mohammed Yunus (sp?) provides one such great example in economics.
Sharmila Mukherjee
>this thread like many others in scb has followed a particular path...............
>3. and then starts the name calling.
>
>this sequence displays a singular lack of maturity of all the participants.
>the newsgroup ideally should have a double-blind nature, where ideas and
>opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
>nettors are not relevant at all.
I fully agree with you, Saugata. Time and again I have noticed that the
nettors deviate from the actual topic so that they could indulge in
mud-slinging. It is unfortunate that grown-up, adult people should resort to
such methods under the pretence of discussing something worthwhile. I feel that
if you do not agree to the life-style/habits of another person, you should let
him/her know that(if at all) via e-mail and not bore other nettors who do not
have the least interest in the matter.
saugata basu
: Thanks, Saugata, for not trying to get too cclose. Movie offer still
: open. Were you sitting on the sax when you wrote this?Regards,Indranil.
is this an exaggerated sense of self-importance or what ?
i have no intention of getting close to you in any way. though you claim to
know some of my former acquaintances, i don't know who you are and am not
the least bit curious.
please, for your own benefit, stop wasting your time trying to insult
me. believe me -- i really don't care.
this is my last response directed towards you.
saugata.
sambit_basu
> the latter group then starts attacking sayan's lifestyle attacking him
> and me too of hypocrisy.
Dekhun Saugatababu dhil chhNuDle patkel-ti khete hoy. Sheti kheye akhon
taaroswor-e "ami shohid, ami shohid" bole jotoi chNyachan taate apnar
biplobi bhaabmurti-r khub poriborton hobe bole mone hoy na.
Dudin aage aapni-i ei thread "name-calling" shuru korechhilen bole swikar
korechhilen. Apni nomoshyo.
Disgusted,
Sambit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My employer is no way responsible for what I say and vice versa.
Sudeshna Das
Prothome,
: the newsgroup ideally should have a double-blind nature, where ideas and
: opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
: nettors are not relevant at all.
What if the ideas and opinions themselves are criticizing personal
lifestyles (and that too without justification - chepe dhorlei pantul
holud - in fact the proponents themselves have openly stated that they
do not follow their own advice) of other nettors? Loke ghashe mukh
diye chalena bole rag? Tui ekai seyanach**a, Saugat, ar baki shabai
bokach**a?
: whether sayan or myself or the others
: are hypocrites or not should not have anything to do with the responses
: to their/my posts.
Tappore (modhye ekta sentence'r-o fNaak nei),
: bringing in personal lives can have either of two motives --
: 1. satisfying ones ego or some weird complexes that some scb nettors apparently
: carry along; this i understand and sympathize with, but even then i would
: advise counselling rather than posting venom on scb as a kind of release.
Bare beta, ba! Nijeke contradict jodi korbi, at least mukh-ta ghuriye
tarpare kar. Dekh, tor personal life'e kono galta na thakle eto
conscious hoye thakte hoto na - e-i bujhi keu chepe dhorlo. Rakhis
keno personal life'e galta, bal? Eta purono bondhu hishebe bollam.
: 2. the responder has nothing at all to say, and is simply vengeful.
: whatever it is, i think it is a good idea to refrain from posting in either
: case.
I completely agree with the above. That is why I have repeatedly asked
Sayan, Saugata and others to stop posting meaningless rhetoric (which
are so off the mark that the proponents themselves won't follow that
in real life) in SCB.
: saugata.
Apratim.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4ch313$4...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu>, sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
SB> this sequence displays a singular lack of maturity of all the participants.
SB> the newsgroup ideally should have a double-blind nature, where ideas and
SB> opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
SB> nettors are not relevant at all. whether sayan or myself or the others
SB> are hypocrites or not should not have anything to do with the responses
SB> to their/my posts.
...
SB> whatever it is, i think it is a good idea to refrain from posting in either
SB> case. otherwise, posters like indranil who on rare occasions *do* posts
SB> readable stuff, end up posting rather pathetic drivel like what he has
SB> been posting recently. only one piece of advice for him -- if you want me
SB> to read it keep it short. anything longer than two lines from you these days
SB> gets junked immediately.
Saugata:
The above two paragraphs seem contradictory in spirit. Will you now
claim like Sayan that you don't practise what you preach? :-)
Frankly, Saugata, if you care for constructive criticism, you are as
much involved in the above as you claim others are.
Here are couple of your flame baits (which many may interpret not only
as judgmental but also as very bad forms of personal attack):
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"by indian society i am of course not counting people who can blow up
rs 2000+ for a lunch for five..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"kintu amar mone hoi je jara jara ekhane besh semi-permanently ghar
dhor bedheche ba badhbar plan korche tara ektu ei byapare
sensitive. jemon dharo tumi, ananish, sambit.. apratim ar indranil'ke
dhorlamna karan ora chyablamo kore."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Agun jal-le to ektu chheka lagbei bhaya!! :-)
-Shubu
PS: Personally, I had a ball over your statements!
Sudeshna Das
saugata basu (sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu) wrote:
: this thread like many others in scb has followed a particular path.
: 1. sayan posts a comment
... attacking the lifestyles of certain nettors w/o any basis other
than rhetoric, failing to substantiate claims when pressed ...
: that some nettors (the iiww or would be iiww)
: do not like.
: 2. the latter group then starts attacking sayan's lifestyle attacking him
: and me too of hypocrisy.
Sayan'r byapare boli: Later group, na Sayan nije? Sayan'r nijer quote
"I do not practise what I preach" ... ja kina ami siggir-i .sig'e
lagachchhi. Tobu shala Sayan'r buk'r dom achhe shwikar korechhe,
tor theke or hajar gune beshi integrity achhe Sauagta. Ki tor ki
mone hoi tui hypocrite nosh? Tor sheta shwikar karar khamota nei, tui
sheta lukiye rakhte chash SCB'r lokjon'der kachh theke, sheta alada
byapar. Kintu jodi tor mone hoi tui hypocrite nosh, bole fel. Tarpar
attack'r proshno uthbe. Keu toke hypocrite bolle take data diye
dekhate habe keno bolchhe (bhabish na, data'r abhab nei). Naki tor
mone hoi ke hypocrite ke noi sheta socio-economic debate'e important
noi? Next bolbi ke mithyabadi ke noi tar shange ke ki bolchhe tar-o
kono shamparko nei.
Bal, konta?
: 3. and then starts the name calling.
Name calling ke start korechhe sheta e-i thread'e ektu pichhone gelei
dekha jabe. Jai hok, bNash keno tui jhaRe karar age ektu bhebe dekhle
partish jakhan ulto bNash handle kara'r dom'ta nei. Sayan antoto tor
moto e-i niye nake kNade na. Mayer aNchol dhara'r bayesh'ta periye
eshechhe.
Ja, fot!
: saugata.
Apratim.
--
"Ja be ja, jake apna kam kar. Kaun kaha tha tereko ake is thread'ke
sath kushthi kar?"
- Old SCI Saying.
Sudeshna Das
: I fully agree with you, Saugata. Time and again I have noticed that the
: nettors deviate from the actual topic so that they could indulge in
: mud-slinging. It is unfortunate that grown-up, adult people should resort to
: such methods under the pretence of discussing something worthwhile. I feel that
: if you do not agree to the life-style/habits of another person, you should let
: him/her know that(if at all) via e-mail and not bore other nettors who do not
: have the least interest in the matter.
Sharmiladebi,
Er uttore apnake email'e koti proshno korbo bhablam, ta apni to
apnar email address news post kara'r shomoi janan na ...
Apratim.
William Herzog
: dgu...@buphy.bu.edu (Indranil DasGupta) writes:
: : Thanks, Saugata, for not trying to get too cclose. Movie offer still
: : open. Were you sitting on the sax when you wrote this?Regards,Indranil.
: is this an exaggerated sense of self-importance or what ?
: i have no intention of getting close to you in any way. though you claim to
: know some of my former acquaintances, i don't know who you are and am not
: the least bit curious.
Why do you insist on calling me by my first name _against_ my wishes?
Why do you insist on calling me _tumi_ against my wishes? Do you do the
same to everyone you do not know and are not the least bit curious
about?
As Lalmohan Ganguly says. Highly suspicious.
: please, for your own benefit, stop wasting your time trying to insult
: me. believe me -- i really don't care.
Well you started off by insulting Apra and myself. I don't care about
Apra because he may be a close friend of yours. However, you don't know
ME. Since you admit this yourself, would you care to explain why should
you expect to get away with it?
I always suspect the worst when someone tries to be too familiar.
In your case, you were either trying to be too familiar or too
offensive. You can decide and let me know what was the case. But I abhor both.
: this is my last response directed towards you.
Amar ki ato shoubhagyo hobe?
Indranil.
William Herzog
: sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) wrote:
: >this thread like many others in scb has followed a particular path...............
: >3. and then starts the name calling.
: >this sequence displays a singular lack of maturity of all the participants.
: >the newsgroup ideally should have a double-blind nature, where ideas and
: >opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
: >nettors are not relevant at all.
: I fully agree with you, Saugata. Time and again I have noticed that the
: nettors deviate from the actual topic so that they could indulge in
: mud-slinging. It is unfortunate that grown-up, adult people should resort to
: such methods under the pretence of discussing something worthwhile. I feel that
: if you do not agree to the life-style/habits of another person, you should let
: him/her know that(if at all) via e-mail and not bore other nettors who do not
: have the least interest in the matter.
Very laudable views. Ironically they are now coming from the same
people who used to `cringe' publicly at the lifestyle of others not so
long ago.
Take the case of saugata basu. In an earlier thread he explicitly
commented upon the lifestyle of one nettor. Then Sutapa Chattopadhyay
asked sayan bhattacharyya a question regarding his profssional
ambitions. There was no indication of sayan-babu taking any offense. But
Saugata babu immediately started jumping up and down saying personal
lives should not be brought into the debates. Whereupon yours sincerely
pointed out his double standards. And saugata-babu mumbled something ...
And suagata-babu mumbled something ...
Indranil.
saugata basu
...
: dekhate habe keno bolchhe (bhabish na, data'r abhab nei). Naki tor
: noi?
yes, thats exactly what i think. if you are not mature enough to appreciate
this, then there is actually no point in debating anything with you.
: Next bolbi ke mithyabadi ke noi tar shange ke ki bolchhe tar-o
: kono shamparko nei.
same as above.
:
: Bal, konta?
:
: : 3. and then starts the name calling.
:
: Name calling ke start korechhe sheta e-i thread'e ektu pichhone gelei
: dekha jabe. Jai hok, bNash keno tui jhaRe karar age ektu bhebe dekhle
: partish jakhan ulto bNash handle kara'r dom'ta nei. Sayan antoto tor
: moto e-i niye nake kNade na. Mayer aNchol dhara'r bayesh'ta periye
: eshechhe.
apratim,
what some people posts on scb about me doesn't bother me in the least.
if you think that it does then i would say that it is again a case of
exaggerated self-importance. sit down, take a deep breath, and ponder
on why i should care about anything that *you* have to say about me.
my post was solely intended towards improving the quality of the debates
on socio-economic-political affairs which quite rapidly degenerates into
name-calling in this newsgroup.
: Ja, fot!
please, decency !
saugata.
saugata basu
: : opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
: : nettors are not relevant at all.
:
: lifestyles (and that too without justification - chepe dhorlei pantul
: holud - in fact the proponents themselves have openly stated that they
: do not follow their own advice) of other nettors? Loke ghashe mukh
then the response should try to defend those life-styles. there is nothing
personal about attacking a life-style and there should not be anything
personal in defending it too.
... obscenities deleted.
: Bare beta, ba! Nijeke contradict jodi korbi, at least mukh-ta ghuriye
: tarpare kar. Dekh, tor personal life'e kono galta na thakle eto
: conscious hoye thakte hoto na - e-i bujhi keu chepe dhorlo. Rakhis
: keno personal life'e galta, bal? Eta purono bondhu hishebe bollam.
actually, you hardly know my life-style and in any case what has that to
do with a debate. apratim, i think you should learn what a debate is all
about. i am not sure you do.
: I completely agree with the above. That is why I have repeatedly asked
: Sayan, Saugata and others to stop posting meaningless rhetoric (which
: are so off the mark that the proponents themselves won't follow that
: in real life) in SCB.
why should that be ? just because certain viewpoints make you uncomfortable
means that these should not be expressed ? and the response would always
be that the proponents don't live upto their ideals ?
i should really congratulate you on this gem.
saugata.
Sudeshna Das
: Very laudable views. Ironically they are now coming from the same
: people who used to `cringe' publicly at the lifestyle of others not so
: long ago.
: Take the case of saugata basu. In an earlier thread he explicitly
: commented upon the lifestyle of one nettor. Then Sutapa Chattopadhyay
: asked sayan bhattacharyya a question regarding his profssional
: ambitions. There was no indication of sayan-babu taking any offense. But
Sayan always takes it like a sportsman when the gun is pointed at
him. Unlike Sauagata, who while debating with Shubhendu couldn't
resist the temptation of making snide comments about Sambit, IDG and
yours truly who till that point were in no way involved in this
thread and started to cry foul the moment his comments were returned
with high-dividend interest. Fortunately for him, people like
Sharmiladebi have very short memories.
: Saugata babu immediately started jumping up and down saying personal
: lives should not be brought into the debates. Whereupon yours sincerely
: pointed out his double standards. And saugata-babu mumbled something ...
: And suagata-babu mumbled something ...
Why is it that the expatriate Bengali community has so many "fakes",
as we used to call them back home in Cal? Sayan, Saugata ebang
Indranil shakolei to deshe fire jachchhe - majhe majhe amar mone hoi
Sayan'ke jodi pulish'e dhare biplob korte giye - jamin ke dNarabe?
Saugata, na Indranil? Jehetu ami eder dujonkei bhalo kore chini,
uttor'ta amar kachhe ekdam porishkar. Tomar ki mone hoi Sayan?
: Indranil.
Apratim.
Indranil DasGupta
: : What if the ideas and opinions themselves are criticizing personal
: : lifestyles (and that too without justification - chepe dhorlei pantul
: : holud - in fact the proponents themselves have openly stated that they
: : do not follow their own advice) of other nettors? Loke ghashe mukh
: then the response should try to defend those life-styles. there is nothing
: personal about attacking a life-style and there should not be anything
: personal in defending it too.
Bbbuut saugata-babau don't you remember _explicitly_
referring to Apratim's _personal_ life style in the earlier thread?
Otar por ki apni prachittir tachittir kore shudhdho hoye gachhen naki?
Tahole amader-o kayda-ta bole din na! Amrao abar Hindu hoi.
Indranil.
PS: Ei shutoi je apni-i age `name calling' shuru koren she bishoy kichhu
bolar achhe ki? Na ki otar poreo nobojonmo hoye gachhe apnar?
Sudeshna Das
: sude...@bu.edu (Sudeshna Das) writes:
: : saugata basu (sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu) wrote:
: :
: :
: : : the newsgroup ideally should have a double-blind nature, where ideas and
: : : opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
: : : nettors are not relevant at all.
: :
: : lifestyles (and that too without justification - chepe dhorlei pantul
: : holud - in fact the proponents themselves have openly stated that they
: : do not follow their own advice) of other nettors? Loke ghashe mukh
: then the response should try to defend those life-styles.
Did you miss the "that too w/o justification" part? I note
that you haven't addressed it.
: there is nothing
: personal about attacking a life-style and there should not be anything
: personal in defending it too.
Well then there is nothing personal about people pointing out
that your life-style reeks of double standards. If you wonder
how that is relevant to socio-economic debates - let me explain:
1. Hypocritical actions (including statements) affect societal
progress extremely negatively, starting from politicians down to
the electorate.
2. You surely are a part of the society.
: ... obscenities deleted.
Did you have a nice cringing experience before deleting them? BTW,
what obscenities?
: : Bare beta, ba! Nijeke contradict jodi korbi, at least mukh-ta ghuriye
: : tarpare kar. Dekh, tor personal life'e kono galta na thakle eto
: : conscious hoye thakte hoto na - e-i bujhi keu chepe dhorlo. Rakhis
: : keno personal life'e galta, bal? Eta purono bondhu hishebe bollam.
: actually, you hardly know my life-style and in any case what has that to
How do you know that? Did I give any wrong information about your
life-style so far? You however quite confidently declared that
getting a white-collar job has changed my world views. Care to
explain:
1. What were my world views before getting the job, and how are they
different now?
2. How do you reconcile
a) first bringing up _my_ life-style in a debate
b) and then start complaining when I bring up yours?
3. If life-styles are indeed irrelevant in a debate, why did you
bring up mine?
4. How come I didn't see you complaining when others like Sayan
brought up life-styles in debates, like, pointing out that Sumit
Basu's critique of Agantuk is essentially biased as he has a
mechanical engineering degree?
Are you try to make a world record in double standards or what?
: do with a debate. apratim, i think you should learn what a debate is all
: about. i am not sure you do.
So what is a debate all about? Tell me, and please remember that I
am going to apply that definition to your style of debating as well.
I hope that you are not going to say that whether you follow it
or not is irrelevant, but others should. But I won't be surprised
if you do indeed say so?
: : I completely agree with the above. That is why I have repeatedly asked
: : Sayan, Saugata and others to stop posting meaningless rhetoric (which
: : are so off the mark that the proponents themselves won't follow that
: : in real life) in SCB.
: why should that be ? just because certain viewpoints make you uncomfortable
: means that these should not be expressed ?
Of course not, if thay are sincerely expressed and are backed up
by arguments. Since the proponents mention clearly that they are
not going to follow their own advice, the sincerity is not there.
And yes, I would rather not see insincere statements (aka lies) in
SCB. Would you?
: and the response would always
: be that the proponents don't live upto their ideals ?
That response comes up _only when_ the life-style issue comes up,
Saugata. When Sayan presents other arguments, he gets other responses.
You, however, rarely venture out of the life-style argument. Hence
you get a different response than Sayan does.
: i should really congratulate you on this gem.
Please also remember to congratulate yourself on your coming world
record in double standards. Sayan is no match for you.
: saugata.
Apratim.
Sudeshna Das
: : dekhate habe keno bolchhe (bhabish na, data'r abhab nei). Naki tor
: : mone hoi ke hypocrite ke noi sheta socio-economic debate'e important
: : noi?
: yes, thats exactly what i think. if you are not mature enough to appreciate
: this, then there is actually no point in debating anything with you.
Personally I feel that the major reason for India's screwed up state
is hypocricy on part of _everyone_ from politicians down to the
electorate.
Case in point: the primary education system in WB. The CPM Govt. made
English virtually extinct from the lower standards - in public
schools the students practically do not have a chance to learn English
before they are in the 6th standard. After that, too, the job of
teaching English is at best shoddily done. _But_,
1. English is still the major language for official communication
2. and private schools still teach English for day one in school.
So, only those who cannot afford the private schools are going to
go to public ones and remain English-defficient. I.e. the big
talks about "Shikkhai matribhashai matridugdha" are really
helping to build another elite class, though theoritically they
are supposed to eliminate the elite class. *Prime example of
hypocricy*. And I know not of one well-to-do CPM policy maker
who is not taking good care of his/her ward's English education.
Examples to the contrary are most welcome.
Down to the electorate: Some nettors in SCB are planning to start
a school for poor kids in Calcutta. Very noble objective. _But_
1. they plan to build the school which doesn't teach the "useless"
stuff that the private schools (the once that these folks graduated
from) teach
2. and they are not going to teach their students to come to the
USA - this being one of their _major_ objectives (or at least
so it seemed to me when they contacted me). But these folks are all
Bilet(or U.S)-ferot, they enjoy all the benefits that such a visit
entitles one to.
Now, I didn't hear them saying that they are going to send their
_own_ kids to the same school, that they are going to actively
discourage their _own_ kids from coming to the USA. *Another prime
example of hypocricy.*
Back home, I have been actively associated with running schools in
Calcutta slums and (to a lesser extent) among IIT mess-worker
habitats. I know what these folks want - *they want to benefit from
their eduation _exactly in the same way as their teachers have done_
and in _no other way_*. These hypocritical idealists have no
knowledge of what the poor wants. Well, the poor, after all, are
cheap guineapigs so what not use them in experiments after all.
After all, big big talks do not cost much.
*Do you hear me, Sayan?*
Anyway, it's no wonder to me that the so called Janadarodis would
like to keep the hypocricy part out of debates. After all, standards
are cheap these days - so why not employ one for the Janadarodis and
one for the Janogan?
: : Next bolbi ke mithyabadi ke noi tar shange ke ki bolchhe tar-o
: : kono shamparko nei.
: same as above.
Same as above, too.
: : Bal, konta?
: :
: : : 3. and then starts the name calling.
: :
: : Name calling ke start korechhe sheta e-i thread'e ektu pichhone gelei
: : dekha jabe. Jai hok, bNash keno tui jhaRe karar age ektu bhebe dekhle
: : partish jakhan ulto bNash handle kara'r dom'ta nei. Sayan antoto tor
: : moto e-i niye nake kNade na. Mayer aNchol dhara'r bayesh'ta periye
: : eshechhe.
: apratim,
: what some people posts on scb about me doesn't bother me in the least.
: if you think that it does then i would say that it is again a case of
: exaggerated self-importance. sit down, take a deep breath, and ponder
: on why i should care about anything that *you* have to say about me.
Why should I care about what bothers _you_!? However, since
your response above indicates that it indeed has, I must say
that I am pleasantly surprised.
: my post was solely intended towards improving the quality of the debates
: on socio-economic-political affairs which quite rapidly degenerates into
: name-calling in this newsgroup.
Fortunately for you you have so short a memory that you have
forgetten who started the name calling. Anyway, since you are so
keen about the quality of debates in SCB, why not stop calling
names and start forwarding some constructive suggestions?
: : Ja, fot!
: please, decency !
Have you visited a Calcutta slum lately? Ever? Look Saugata, I can
talk elite, but sometimes I have a tendency to switch over to the
language of the Janogan. If you or other Janadarodis do not like that,
fine, I will be especially careful to not hurt the fine sensibilities
of the Janadarodi and make sure to talk elite when addressing them.
But let me tell you something - I have a very rich vocabulary (which
I suspect only Soumitra Bose among regular SCB nettors will understand
and appreciate) which I picked up from the Manoharpukur bosti in
Cal. When I was a kid my mom who was running an adult-education center
there in the evenings would take me along with her to her school
and I would sit with the students. I didn't pick much history and
geography there as South Point was much better at teaching such
stuff and I was way advanced from the rest of the class, though my
mom did sometimes use my SPS class notes. (Several of her old
students are graduates now and have moved over to the lower-middle
class.) Anyway, what I did pick up was the language of the slum
dwellers in Calcutta. Also, a first hand experience with poverty.
More so, when at home I used to private tutor some of my mom's
students, twenty years my senior and one grade lower in school. I do
tend to switch sometimes to that language. And I still
retain some old friends from MonoharPukur bosti, some have died from
drug-addiction, alcoholism or TB. Some are still blacking tickets in
Priya cinema (as I earlier mentioned to Sambit, some of them still
remember me). Some, however, are settled now, married with children.
They still talk in the same language. And I do too, when I meet them
during my visits to Cal.
This I stated not to explain where I come from, but to explain where
_you_ come from, Saugata. To you, Saugata.
: saugata.
Apratim.
Sharmila Mukherjee
> Sayan always takes it like a sportsman when the gun is pointed at
> him. Unlike Sauagata........................... high-dividend interest. Fortunately for him, people like Sharmiladebi have very short memories.
>
Apratimbabu, memory aamar motei short noi. Tobe je bhul koreche take ki bhul
shodhraano-r shujog deowa uchit noi? Naki she bhul koreche bole tar thik
kotha tao mene neowa cholbe na?
P.S. Jodiyo personal attack korlen, aapni emnitei khub rege aachen dekhe
aami mind korlaam na, :).
sayan bhattacharyya
>
> *Do you hear me, Sayan?*
>
Yes, I hear you, but I don't have any intention of adding anything more
to this "debate". I am bowing out of it.
-Sayan.
sayan bhattacharyya
> 4. How come I didn't see you complaining when others like Sayan
> brought up life-styles in debates, like, pointing out that Sumit
> Basu's critique of Agantuk is essentially biased as he has a
> mechanical engineering degree?
Yes, this was wrong of me. However, the above statement is a little
inaccurate. Sumit Basu raised the issue that Ray was adopting a
neo-Luddite posture in the film. Now the original Luddites (followers
of Ned Ludd) were displaced artisans who went about breaking large
industrial machines in England in the early days of the industrial
revolution. So it seemed to me that Sumita Basu had a personal stake
in the matter (after all, if Luddites had their way then mechanical
engineers would be out of a job!). This is why I made a statement like
"note that Sumit Basu is a mechanical engineer himself".
However, (1) this was not a "lifestyle" issue, and (2) I did not base
my counter-arguments solely on the fact that he was a mechanical engineer.
My counter-arguments were, I hope, more substantial. The "mechanical
engineer" observation was just an additional comment in addition to
more substantial arguments.
Finally, please note that Sumit Basu himself did not raise any objections
to my comment calling him a "mechanical engineer", and I don't think he
was offended.
-Sayan.
Sutapa Chattopadhyay
Amar newsreader ta shotti i baje. Ki holo ekhane bujhtei parlaam
na. Anyway, another day, another fight I guess.
--
Sutapa Chattopadhyay.
I was, being human, born alone; In masks outrageous and austere
I am, being human, hard beset; The years go by in single file;
I live by squeezing from a stone But none has merited my fear,
The little nourishment I get. And none has quite escaped my
smile.
--Elinor Wylie
Jagdish Bisa
Saugata Basu insults Indranil and tries to get away with it:
> i have no intention of getting close to you in any way. though you claim to
> know some of my former acquaintances, i don't know who you are and am not
> the least bit curious.
Please don't deny it Mr. Saugata Basu. You _did_ try to be _avuncular_ by
giving unsolicited advice to Indranil. Jagdish (my two lines!) Bisa
saugata basu
: : : saugata basu (sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu) wrote:
: : :
: : : Prothome,
: : :
: : : : the newsgroup ideally should have a double-blind nature, where ideas and
: : : : opinions are expressed and discussed -- and the personal lives of the
: : : : nettors are not relevant at all.
: : :
: : : What if the ideas and opinions themselves are criticizing personal
: : : lifestyles (and that too without justification - chepe dhorlei pantul
: : : holud - in fact the proponents themselves have openly stated that they
: : : do not follow their own advice) of other nettors? Loke ghashe mukh
:
: : then the response should try to defend those life-styles.
:
: Did you miss the "that too w/o justification" part? I note
: that you haven't addressed it.
apratim,
first let me point out that i have not criticized the life-style of you
or anyone else. i have pointed out that socio-economic views of expatriates
from third-world countries living in the first world is often influenced
by their situation in life -- in the same way that one does not expect to
find an ardent socialist in the ranks of wall street executives. i had also
pointed out that the reason behind this might be that, otherwise, the
moral contradiction between ones occupation and beliefs would be impossibly
large. this of course does not amount to a criticism of any life-style.
i used you and some other people as examples of individuals who in my
opinion illustrated the phenomena. note that i didn't claim that your
occupation is the sole determinant of your political views -- but rather
that it would probably be quite impossible for you to hold an opposite
view point.
: : there is nothing
: : personal about attacking a life-style and there should not be anything
: : personal in defending it too.
: Well then there is nothing personal about people pointing out
: that your life-style reeks of double standards. If you wonder
: how that is relevant to socio-economic debates - let me explain:
:
: 1. Hypocritical actions (including statements) affect societal
: progress extremely negatively, starting from politicians down to
: the electorate.
yes of course, but we are not running for political offices here -- and as
i have stated before scb debates are not going to change anything in india.
i, unlike sayan, have never claimed that i will devote my life to bring
societal change of any sort -- so this whole business of whether i am a
hypocrite or not does not matter. btw, i have begun to perversely enjoy
all this slander been thrown at me -- the thought of someone out there
wasting time to post pages of material directed at me which in most
cases i don't read tickles me.
: 2. You surely are a part of the society.
yes but we are not discussing how society is going to be affected by me,
are we ?
: : ... obscenities deleted.
:
: Did you have a nice cringing experience before deleting them? BTW,
: what obscenities?
perhaps you should go back and read your own posts. no i didn't cringe, but
was quite amused at this behavior of yours.
:
: : : Bare beta, ba! Nijeke contradict jodi korbi, at least mukh-ta ghuriye
: : : tarpare kar. Dekh, tor personal life'e kono galta na thakle eto
: : : conscious hoye thakte hoto na - e-i bujhi keu chepe dhorlo. Rakhis
: : : keno personal life'e galta, bal? Eta purono bondhu hishebe bollam.
:
: : actually, you hardly know my life-style and in any case what has that to
:
: How do you know that? Did I give any wrong information about your
: life-style so far? You however quite confidently declared that
you really haven't given any information at all about my life-style -- not
that it matters. and unless you somehow spy on me regularly i don't see
how you can know anything about how i live.
: getting a white-collar job has changed my world views. Care to
: explain:
:
: 1. What were my world views before getting the job, and how are they
: different now?
i don't remember saying that you have *changed* -- i hardly knew your views
before. if i said that you have changed then that was wrong of me and i
apologize.
: 2. How do you reconcile
: a) first bringing up _my_ life-style in a debate
: b) and then start complaining when I bring up yours?
i have never criticized your life-style. i have said that your occupation
makes it very difficult to hold certain views and that people should
realize this when debating with people like you. this does not amount to
any criticism in my books. moreover, i said this after witnessing a number
of your bruising battles with sayan when you invariably brought up and
ridiculed his life-style. i thought that i should dissuade sayan from
any more debates with you.
: 3. If life-styles are indeed irrelevant in a debate, why did you
: bring up mine?
i brought up yours only after i felt that you are often going out of
bounds of meaningful debate by bringing up this issue. moreover, i often
detected a didactic tone in sayan's posting -- and i wanted to point out
its very difficult to convince you folks of his views because of your
situation in life. thats how your personal occupation came into my postings.
however, i should remind you that you considered sayan's life-style fair
game long before that.
: 4. How come I didn't see you complaining when others like Sayan
: brought up life-styles in debates, like, pointing out that Sumit
: Basu's critique of Agantuk is essentially biased as he has a
: mechanical engineering degree?
i haven't followed this thread and shouldn't comment. however, it looks
quite ok to consider an author's backgound while considering his work. this
of course is quite different from saying for instance that Sumit Basu
cheated in his engineering finals...
: Are you try to make a world record in double standards or what?
:
: : do with a debate. apratim, i think you should learn what a debate is all
: : about. i am not sure you do.
:
: So what is a debate all about? Tell me, and please remember that I
: am going to apply that definition to your style of debating as well.
: I hope that you are not going to say that whether you follow it
: or not is irrelevant, but others should. But I won't be surprised
: if you do indeed say so?
this posting is becoming too long. perhaps some other time.
:
: : : I completely agree with the above. That is why I have repeatedly asked
: : : Sayan, Saugata and others to stop posting meaningless rhetoric (which
: : : are so off the mark that the proponents themselves won't follow that
: : : in real life) in SCB.
:
: : why should that be ? just because certain viewpoints make you uncomfortable
: : means that these should not be expressed ?
:
: Of course not, if thay are sincerely expressed and are backed up
: by arguments. Since the proponents mention clearly that they are
: not going to follow their own advice, the sincerity is not there.
: And yes, I would rather not see insincere statements (aka lies) in
: SCB. Would you?
insincere statements are not lies. there is quite a difference between
setting high ideals and admitting that one is not able to live upto them and
lying. btw, i have never given advice of any sort to scb nettors -- so i don't
have to live upto anything.
: : and the response would always
: : be that the proponents don't live upto their ideals ?
:
: That response comes up _only when_ the life-style issue comes up,
: Saugata. When Sayan presents other arguments, he gets other responses.
: You, however, rarely venture out of the life-style argument. Hence
: you get a different response than Sayan does.
this is something i have never understood. i have never asked or preached
anyone to give up their life-styles. i have also never glorified any
particular life-style. what i have said is that political and other viewpoints
are affected by ones situation in life. tatei ato rag ?
saugata.
:
: : saugata.
:
: Apratim.
:
:
:
Apratim Sarkar
>In article <4cujbr$s...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, Sharmila Mukherjee <sm> writes:
>|> Apratimbabu, memory aamar motei short noi.
Tabe amari bujhi bhul mone hoyechhilo. Khyama chaichhi.
>|> Tobe je bhul koreche take ki bhul
>|> shodhraano-r shujog deowa uchit noi?
Jan, apni bolchhen jakhan Saugata'ke khyama kore dilum, or parer
niranobbui-ta aporadh-o e-i agam map hoye gelo. Tarpare kintu amake
dushben na ...
>|>Naki she bhul koreche bole tar thik
>|> kotha tao mene neowa cholbe na?
Bolle to.
>|> P.S. Jodiyo personal attack korlen, aapni emnitei khub rege aachen dekhe
>|> aami mind korlaam na, :).
E-i to spirit. Amar naam kore tabe ajke ekta kahlua kheye neben.
Personal attack'r khesharat.
>Amar newsreader ta shotti i baje. Ki holo ekhane bujhtei parlaam
>na. Anyway, another day, another fight I guess.
Cholchhe cholbe Sutapadi - o niye bhabben na.
>--
>Sutapa Chattopadhyay.
Apratim.
--
Bhai kare tai aaj shoriye dite Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
Kauke| Oke chaine du:kho dite| are my own and shouldn't be construed in
- Amiyo Chakrabarty. any way to represent that of my employer.
Apratim Sarkar
>apratim,
>
>first let me point out that i have not criticized the life-style of you
>or anyone else. i have pointed out that socio-economic views of expatriates
>from third-world countries living in the first world is often influenced
>by their situation in life -- in the same way that one does not expect to
>find an ardent socialist in the ranks of wall street executives. i had also
>pointed out that the reason behind this might be that, otherwise, the
>moral contradiction between ones occupation and beliefs would be impossibly
>large. this of course does not amount to a criticism of any life-style.
>i used you and some other people as examples of individuals who in my
>opinion illustrated the phenomena. note that i didn't claim that your
>occupation is the sole determinant of your political views -- but rather
>that it would probably be quite impossible for you to hold an opposite
>view point.
Your statement, Saugata, was something like "Apratim multi-national'e
white collar chakri peye e shab katha bolte shikhechhe."
>: 1. Hypocritical actions (including statements) affect societal
>: progress extremely negatively, starting from politicians down to
>: the electorate.
>
>yes of course, but we are not running for political offices here -- and as
>i have stated before scb debates are not going to change anything in india.
Does that mean that being hypocritical in any theoritical debate
is OK? If you think that, Sauagata, your and my definitions of
debate indeed are different.
>i, unlike sayan, have never claimed that i will devote my life to bring
>societal change of any sort -- so this whole business of whether i am a
>hypocrite or not does not matter.
Well, depends on your definition of integrity in debate.
>: 2. You surely are a part of the society.
>
>yes but we are not discussing how society is going to be affected by me,
>are we ?
Why not? If not by you, but by people like you, using you as an
example?
>you really haven't given any information at all about my life-style -- not
>that it matters. and unless you somehow spy on me regularly i don't see
>how you can know anything about how i live.
Then why do you think that I attacked your life-style, if I provided
no information about that? Make up your mind.
>i don't remember saying that you have *changed* -- i hardly knew your views
>before. if i said that you have changed then that was wrong of me and i
>apologize.
Apology accepted.
>i have never criticized your life-style. i have said that your occupation
>makes it very difficult to hold certain views and that people should
>realize this when debating with people like you. this does not amount to
>any criticism in my books. moreover, i said this after witnessing a number
>of your bruising battles with sayan when you invariably brought up and
>ridiculed his life-style. i thought that i should dissuade sayan from
>any more debates with you.
>
>i brought up yours only after i felt that you are often going out of
>bounds of meaningful debate by bringing up this issue. moreover, i often
>detected a didactic tone in sayan's posting -- and i wanted to point out
>its very difficult to convince you folks of his views because of your
>situation in life. thats how your personal occupation came into my postings.
>however, i should remind you that you considered sayan's life-style fair
>game long before that.
Yes, and I don't cringe when Sayan brings up mine.
>i haven't followed this thread and shouldn't comment. however, it looks
>quite ok to consider an author's backgound while considering his work. this
But not a debator's background before considering his/her POV?
>of course is quite different from saying for instance that Sumit Basu
>cheated in his engineering finals...
Yes, of course. That is libel.
>: So what is a debate all about? Tell me, and please remember that I
>: am going to apply that definition to your style of debating as well.
>: I hope that you are not going to say that whether you follow it
>: or not is irrelevant, but others should. But I won't be surprised
>: if you do indeed say so?
>
>this posting is becoming too long. perhaps some other time.
I hope that will be before you engage in a new debate.
>insincere statements are not lies. there is quite a difference between
>setting high ideals and admitting that one is not able to live upto them and
Of course not. But the admittance, unfortunately, was quite late in
coming, which confused some of us.
>lying. btw, i have never given advice of any sort to scb nettors -- so i don't
>have to live upto anything.
Don't you have to live up to your criticisms as well? A simple yes/no
answer will do.
>this is something i have never understood. i have never asked or preached
>anyone to give up their life-styles. i have also never glorified any
>particular life-style. what i have said is that political and other viewpoints
>are affected by ones situation in life. tatei ato rag ?
Bitter criticisms of life-styles don't count?
>saugata.
sayan bhattacharyya
Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
>>i, unlike sayan, have never claimed that i will devote my life to bring
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>societal change of any sort
I never said that I will "devote my life" to bring about social change.
Perhaps I will try to do some things in a little way. But I know my limitations
very well, and I am not the kind of person who has what it takes to "devote
one's life" entirely for this. I never claimed this.
-Sayan.
Shubu Mukherjee
>>>>> In article <4d4adq$f...@news.eecs.umich.edu>, bhat...@krusty.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
SB> Sambit's entire response to Soumitra's question
SB> consisted in effect of the assertion that, because SOumitra was a marxist
SB> (in Shubu's opinion), his question did not deserve to be answered.
Heyyyy Sayan, when did I call Soumitra is a Marxist?
Dekho net-e lokjon-ke nongra galagaal dewa-ta amar shobab noi!! :-)
-Shubu
sayan bhattacharyya
Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>>However, (1) this was not a "lifestyle" issue,
>
> You have got me confused here, Sayan. If percieved "personal stakes"
> based on a correspondent's occupation are not "lifestyle issues",
> what are?
Perhaps you and I mean different things by the word "lifestyle". In that case,
I am sorry.
By the word "lifestyle", I mean the material conditions in which
an individual lives his or her life. For example, Rockefeller and a Calcutta
ragpicker have different lifestyles. However, different occupations does not
necessarily mean different lifestyles. For example, a mechanical engineer and
a software developer may lead very different intellectual lives. Perhaps one
solves differential equations while the other is a lisp hacker. But they
may live a life of similar material comfort levels, and so according to my
definition they will have the same "lifestyle".
> So, Sayan, is it OK to dwell on personal ideological slants
> of the correspondent based on his/her personal stakes (as percieved
> from his/her occupation), but not based on his/her previous posts?
My comment was an additional, paranthetical, comment in addition to other
arguments. Sambit's entire response to Soumitra's question
consisted in effect of the assertion that, because SOumitra was a marxist
(in Shubu's opinion), his question did not deserve to be answered. Did I
say that Sumit Basu's question was not deserving of an answer because he
was a mechanical engineer?
Also, does Soumitra's signature file say "Soumitra Basu, Marxist" in the
way that Sumit's says "Sumit Basu, Mechanical Engineer" ? In other words,
Soumitra did not claim to be a marxist in this posting. Characterizing him
as one as Sambit did is a __non sequitur__ here. Sumit, however, flaunted
his mechanical engineerhood in his signature file in the same posting that
I was replying to.
-Sayan.
>
> I hope that you are not going to repeat your now-famous "I do not
> practice what I preach" statement now.
>
>>and (2) I did not base
>>my counter-arguments solely on the fact that he was a mechanical engineer.
>
> That I agree.
>
>>My counter-arguments were, I hope, more substantial. The "mechanical
>>engineer" observation was just an additional comment in addition to
>>more substantial arguments.
>
> Here I differ. :-)
>
>>Finally, please note that Sumit Basu himself did not raise any objections
>>to my comment calling him a "mechanical engineer", and I don't think he
>>was offended.
>
> Sumit of course is a mechanical engineer as is clear from his .sig.
> But my objection to your statement didn't stem from that, Sayan. That
> should be clear from my statement above which you quoted.
>
> Anyway, I was addressing Saugata, and wondering why he came to your
> defence (when you also didn't raise any objections to us calling you
> a hypocrite, rather quite candidly admitted that you are one, in that
> you do not practice what you preach but go on preaching nevertheless,
> so the question of you being offended doesn't rise at all) but not
> to Sumit's.
>
>>-Sayan.
Apratim Sarkar
>In article <4d1ohf$u...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>,
>Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>
>>sau...@slinky.cs.nyu.edu (saugata basu) writes:
>
>>>i, unlike sayan, have never claimed that i will devote my life to bring
>>>societal change of any sort
>
>Perhaps I will try to do some things in a little way. But I know my limitations
>very well, and I am not the kind of person who has what it takes to "devote
>one's life" entirely for this. I never claimed this.
It should be clear from the attributions line, Sayan was
responding to Saugata's statement, not mine. Anyway, Sayan'ke amar
kichhu bala'r achhe.
Bhai Sayan, some things in a little way, tao perhaps!? To paraphrase
a old speech by you, "One day history is going to come and ask us,
where were you when revolution was being made in the streets of
Calcutta? Where were you when the striking Kanoria Jute mill workers
were fighting for their rights? ... Then you won't be able to answer,
and history will then not forgive you."
[From memory, corrections most welcome.]
Ekhono shomoi achhe, Sayan. And, as Ben Franklin said, "Well done is
better than well said." Kichhu karo? At least biyeta jodi ...
>-Sayan.
Apratim.
--
No doubt the world is entirely an Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are
imaginary world, but it is only once are my own and shouldn't be construed in
removed from the true world. any way to represent that of my employer.
- Issac Bashevis Singer.
Apratim Sarkar
>Apratim Sarkar <asa...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>> You have got me confused here, Sayan. If percieved "personal stakes"
>> based on a correspondent's occupation are not "lifestyle issues",
>> what are?
>
>Perhaps you and I mean different things by the word "lifestyle". In that case,
>I am sorry.
>
>By the word "lifestyle", I mean the material conditions in which
>an individual lives his or her life. For example, Rockefeller and a Calcutta
>ragpicker have different lifestyles. However, different occupations does not
>necessarily mean different lifestyles. For example, a mechanical engineer and
>a software developer may lead very different intellectual lives. Perhaps one
>solves differential equations while the other is a lisp hacker. But they
>may live a life of similar material comfort levels, and so according to my
>definition they will have the same "lifestyle".
Well, I tend to include intellectual conditions as well, when talking
about lifestyles. Note, that when mentioning intellectual life I am
not restricting myself to the intellectual life at work, as you seemed
to have done. Anyway, coming back to the original question, whether or
not you attacked Sumit based on lifestyle issues, please confirm
whether I understand your position correctly:
Sumit, by training a mechanical engineer, is essentially biased against
any negative critique of mass-scale technological implementations in
the contemporary society, as that endangers his intellectual lifestyle
at work. This is not a lifestyle criticism, as that doesn't involve
criticism of Sumit's materical living conditions (which according to
your [narrow, IMO] definition of lifestyle is what lifestyle is all
about).
Well,
1. This surely is ad hominem, if Sambit's reference to Soumitra's
perceived ideological slant is, as pointed out by you.
2. Whenever you criticize the idle rich for spending amount xyz in
restaurant abc, you are raising lifestyle issues.
3. Accusations of hypocrisy based on perceived inconsistencies between
what one preaches and what one practises are criticisms of
intellectual lifestyle, not material. I.e., the inconsistencies are
criticized, not the material lifestyle in itself, which wouldn't have
given rise to any inconsistencies if the person preached along similar
lines as well. Hence, by your definition of lifestyles, nobody
criticized you or Saugata based on lifestyle issues.
4. May I store your definition of lifestyle for use in future whenever
you accuse anyone of raising lifestyle issues?
>> So, Sayan, is it OK to dwell on personal ideological slants
>> of the correspondent based on his/her personal stakes (as percieved
>> from his/her occupation), but not based on his/her previous posts?
>
>My comment was an additional, paranthetical, comment in addition to other
>arguments. Sambit's entire response to Soumitra's question
>consisted in effect of the assertion that, because SOumitra was a marxist
>(in Shubu's opinion), his question did not deserve to be answered. Did I
>say that Sumit Basu's question was not deserving of an answer because he
>was a mechanical engineer?
I am not trying to defend Sambit here, Sayan. I am tying to point
out _your_ inconsistencies. Did I ever say that you said <xyz>, as
in your last sentence? My question was, and is, if dwelling on
personal ideological stance is unacceptable, it is unacceptable even
when accompanied by other arguments, so why did you of all people,
a proud preacher of debating principles, indulge in such weakness?
Or is it that dwelling on personal ideological stance is OK if
one is careful to mix it with other arguments? You have got me
doubly confused here, Sayan.
>Also, does Soumitra's signature file say "Soumitra Basu, Marxist" in the
>way that Sumit's says "Sumit Basu, Mechanical Engineer" ? In other words,
>Soumitra did not claim to be a marxist in this posting. Characterizing him
>as one as Sambit did is a __non sequitur__ here.
Sambit went by previous posts, you by the .sig. Nowhere in Sumit's
post, i.e. in his arguments, did he make any reference to his
professional training. You however made a sweeping generalization
that all mechanical engineers (after all, if we are talking of
intellectual lifestyles at work only, what difference is there between
Sumit Basu and mechanical engineer ABC) are essentially biased when
it comes to art appreciations. That was not a non sequitur IYO, while
Sambit's characterzation of Soumitra as Marxist based on Soumitra's
previous posts, was. Capital, Sayan!
>Sumit, however, flaunted
>his mechanical engineerhood in his signature file in the same posting that
>I was replying to.
Just as you "flaunt" `AI lab, UMich, Ann Arbor', sometimes? What has
happened to you, Sayan? Why can't you stop making meaningless personal
attacks?