The rejuvenating face of Islam in Bengal
Soumitra Bose
The face of Islam which humanized India and Hinduism
Recently BJP has started another of their routine obnoxious
campaign in the net . Being argumentless on the face of the
stiff opposition mostly from the Bengalees they have now
resorted to slinging mud against Quran , especially on the
different Ayats which talk about JIHAD.
BJP , whenever they want to pull a long one, mentions
Vevekananda and wants us to believe that Vivekananda was the
precursor of the BJP version of Hindutva. No doubt that they
misquote him , put words on his mouth (one tried by Mr Bandaran
and Nacho) , now these days they are trying to come out with a
whole new version of Vevekanda's "works" as dictated by BJP.
They are pretty good at these , they did it with Taslima's
LAJJA. They published millions of pirated copies of the books by
very meticulously removing those portions where she enlisted all
the atrocities of the BJP and the Bandar Senas around December 6
1992.They even changed the text so many times.
The reason I cited this is because Vivekananda went around
lecturing in US and in Europe , and in some of those lectures he
extolled the positive relevance of Islam in India and in Europe.
Not a sigle luminaries of the 19th and 20th Century ever found
so much objection in the Jihad Ayats. Why had that been so , and
why did it take so long to have the "right revelation " about
Quran? We would peruse that in a short while .
Falsehood and lie is the blood of any oppression and any
oppressive minority rule in the earth. Truth and fact cannot be
compatible with a minority rule simply because by definition a
minority rule is an anathema to human civilisation. It had to
exist on falsehood. The Brahminical rule of India from the
Guptas as it was legislatized in the MAnusmriti and the
Arthyasastra is one such case . Besides institutionalising all
evil minority rule of upper-castes and especially of the
Shresthis (Banias of today ) and the Kshatriyas (Parasitic
pramilitary and the administrators/politicians of today) it
extensively charted out how to implement the torments on the
working people including the ways and means of keeping the
"guards" under their carnal instinctinal hegemony through whores
and corruption ,well that was a "religious text" to HINDUS.
The falsehood here lies not in the text as much as it lies in
interpreting any classical text. The literalist way of
interpretation has been very peculiarly been started after the
colonial filth came into India. Before the colonialism of the
West milleniums after milleniums people took the classical
scripts in the right spirit , as our tradition was an aural/oral
one .So the inflexions of the reader was as important as those
of the writer and the interlocutor. Manusmriti was taken in its
right spirit, Veds were,Gita was, Uponishads were (including the
apparannt fascism of Isooponishad),even the Brahmans and the
Samhitas were. So also Quran was taken in the right spirit , in
the right context and every reader was supposed to go through a
routine initiation of researching the hidden meaning , which
means the metaphorical meaning and the style was the essence of
the religious studies .
The West came in with their "per se" attitude , the attitude of
"objectivity" ,of "factual and contentual" meaning through
literal studies . All the hate-campaign that started (hithertoo
unknown in pre-british India and especially Bengal) came pouring
in with these western colonialistic ideas. Now we have Hindu
literalists, Muslim literalists ,Christian literalists etc all
of them are rabid hate-campaigner fundamentalists ,all of them
are blood-brothers and are keeping good working relations with
each other in keeping the religious strife-pot ever hot and
boiling . The Muslim literalists have now two strong camps
coming from two countries , Iran and Saudi-Arabia (the latter
being more dangerous and harmfull).None of these two countries
have been able to produce any renowned and respected Islamic
scholar in the last 30 or so years and still these are the
actors deciding how Quran should or should not be read.Throghout
the Islamic JAhan and throughout the history of Islam so many
schools of thoughts emerged, they debated, they colluded, they
confered and they created never was those debates stopped or
censored in favour of one dominating one .Even the so-fancied
ultra-conservative Gazzali mentioned at least four sources of
Islamic theoretical knowledge(most of them he did not approve
of) including Sufism,Falsifism,Mutazilists and Kharijites . Now
we see these upstarts who shove aside all these discourses in
favour of some Kings version of Quran and their literal
interpration. These again are the people(the Moududites in the
sub-continent) are the arbid supporters of our VHP. [The very
first person going ecstatic over BAjpayee's taking over power
was the Grand Amin of Pakistan's JAmaat , who said that he knew
Vajpayee from the old days in Europe and he thinks at last India
is in "right hands"]. On the Hindu side these are the people who
clamour of removing all metaphoric reading of the classical
scriptures .In this way whatever one institution (which has to
be politically and militarily established ) says would be THE
WAY. So the peoples' syncretic creative cultures which thrived
in different parts of the world could be discounted. This is the
conspiracy of the North-Indian-upper-caste-hindu-minority to re-
construct the whole culture,history,civlisation of the whole of
India.British tried it (vide Gauri Viswanathan and Sarah
Suleiri) and now those throughout their history never lifted
their little fingers against them and killed the patriotic
Indians by taking over puppet power(like Shyamaprosad) are
actually trying to reconstruct it again .
Let's take one example , how Islam has actually developed the
essence of Hinduism and Indianness in India and especially in
BEngal.
I guess before starting this it now becomes almost superfluous
to re-iterate the Sufi-Aulia concept of Quranic Jihad, that it
is nothing other than to engage in a constant INTERNAL STRIFE
within oneself to ward off all the aspects of doubt and
selfishness in terms of non-sacrifice and possession. Thus came
the ascetic-like simple life-style of the Sufis and the Sufi
thought . The sense of selfless love and devotion and sacrifice
to the cause of humanity that had been taught by the Gaudia-
Bhakti movement and later carried on by the KAbir,NAnak,Satnami
and the other Bhakti movement has been possible mainly because
of this trend of Jihad of the Sufi-Islam which always teaches us
to fight against the Munafeki and doubters . A proper wholistic
reading of Quran shows us how Allah had been directing all the
monins not to disturb the peace anymore once a balance and peace
has been established.[A non-believer in Islam -for that matter
in any organized religion- can understand this simple fact].
Reading a text non-wholistically without context and setting
content against context is a typical colonial practice. The
present pall-bearers are these hate-campaigners.
I wish to discuss mostly with reference to the bengal scene .But
The Indian scenario is very similar and we can prove that.
Bengal, its language,literature,culture and the civilisation of
the nationality is started by a group of Rebel buddhist monks
who broke out of the institutional structure .
These monks started their journey by collecting the day to day
sagas of the people of North-Bengal.Right from the inception
this literature was therefore folk and pro-people.The
Brahminical strictures could never get a foothold in Bengal. On
one side the North-Indians ostracized anyone crossing the
Rajmahal Hill-tract and on the other only after Ballal Sen's
import of Kanauji Brahmins and Kanauji Kshatriyas were implanted
from top on Bengal , all of these were subsequently demoted by
the North-Indian Hindus. The ruthless caste distinction and
apartheid of the North-Indian and MAnusmriti-oriented Hindu
structure (which was supported even by the Ramanuj school of
Vaisnavs- albeit in a much moderated way) was too-much for the
independent anarchist Bengalis to put up with. Buddhism with its
great "golden mean-way" could not take head on the day to day
insult of humanity in an effective way. Buddhism could never
totally reject the caste distinctions in the converted
community, its over-assertion and rather obsession in
philosophical matters could not effectively the ortho-praxis of
the Brahminism.Thus whenever Islam came to Bengal the
buddhist(most of them were peasants) switched over to Islam
Islam gave them the necessary force of equality as a human
being and a promise that they need not wait for the next
uncertain life to persue their ambition . Well, any ambitious
person as he/she starts late has by definition to be aggressive.
Islam came to Bengal much early than Giyasuddin or Il-tutmis.
When these warriors invaded Bengal they faced a non-bengali
ruler not very aware of the culture of the native land.Being a
total stranger (only second generation) he was not accusteomed
beyond the Gaur city .His flight to Vikrampur was not because he
was popular there but because the peculiarity in geographical
(almost an Island in Buriganga and Padma) and the concentration
of the upper-caste Hindus(whose ancestors were basically brought
by the father of Lakshan Sen .Much later on the trend even in
Vikrampur was changing as the queen married ISha Khan (one of
the first secular warlords of Bengal).Anyway the Muslim rulers
almost got a very willing people to convert and rule over. The
Shresthis too were too tired of having been looked down upon as
a third-in-the-rung class when they had the total economic
leverage in their hand. En masse these Shresthis converted
themselves to Islam. Those who did not did get a wonderful pat
from the new rulers as they wanted to rule in comparative
freedom from the Delhi-based Mughal rulers. These people did not
change their religion but upgraded themselves within Hinduism
taking on the NAwabi titles as surnames. Thus most of the
Kayasthas in Bengal now bear Nawabi titles as their family-
surnames, well, they are all "Hindus".The advent of Islam has
not only helped the peasants and sub-alterns snatch more social-
recognition from the upperechelon in caste hierarchy and the
rulers, but the middle-class professionals too wrigled out more
power and social-recognition in the Hindu society. Numerically
the people who got converted or proselytized were much less than
those who upgraded themselves within the Hindu community. The
external reason of "Islamic invasion" has thus moderated and
democratized the Hindu community from within. The scholarly
arena within Hinduism got a thunder-bolt in facing their
defenseless position against human hierarchy. The sages among
the Hindus were frantically looking were a royal way out of this
quagmire.The threat of Islamic deluge made them change the
attitude and ideology into more pro-people and more
philanthropic stances. The VEdantic schools even after
undergoing so many sub-divisions (as per the source and
historical track they followed) had to dump the orthodoxic
structure and went for a SAHAJIYA way (both for the Shaktas or
the BhaktiVedantas).Gaudiya Vaishnavs rejected caste-
distinctions , for the first time it was declared that a true-
follower of Govinda is an Achut by caste as anyone who is Achut
in this world is God's child(The origin of the Gandhian concept
of HArijan came from the same explanation). The Advaita-
Vedantins never really bothered about any castes anyway as their
principal source had been the Tibetan Tantric culture(The cult
of Green Tara or Shyama Tara transformed to be our goddess
Shyama). The deluge of Islam, its strong content of universal
brotherhood was entirely adopted by the Bhakti Movement and wow!
what great internalization do we see in BAul-Aaul-Sufi-Sahajiya
culture ! Syncretism reached its height in Bengal.Nowhere in the
world in the history of religioun can we find a near scalable
syncretism in depth and extent and profoundity.The stance of
Ramkrishna,Vivekananda at a much later age was so commending
ISlam simply because they got the necessary strength in it to
change their own community. That is why not for once we hear
from Vivekananda or the sage Ramkrishna any doubt aboout Islam,a
similar stance was very understandably taken by Rabindronath,and
no wonder KAzi Nazrul became the pioneer in popularizing the
KAli-Kirtans and Shyama-Sangeets and Krishna-kirtans.To a
Bengali it was resolved that the heart is made up of all the
positive attitudes of all the religions.JAta MOT TOTO PATH was
thus not an invention , it was a discovery here of the existing
law of bengalee psyche.
Islam n Bengal not only revolutionized Hinduism and Bengal from
the religious point of view , but it brought in to our culture a
huge amount of cultural and aesthetic wealth from the Middle-
East,Persia,Turkestan and especially North-India. The whole of
North_Indian Hidustani classical musical tradition is a great
offering to BEngal by the syncretic culture in North-India , the
principal part of which was the product of the so-called Muslim
rule in India.This pattern of culture was shunned by the
orthodox and fanatic muslims and have mingled with the best of
the Hindu tradition of viewing Sangeet as a divine form of
worship,has actually created one of the best sources of
aesthetic beauty of contemporary world. Both the religions and
the cultures are so deeply engrained into it that any belittling
of any one of them would simply crush the tradition. Today we
are very proud to find that BEngal is coming up as the most
important place of classical research and application. Rashid is
a prodigy of SRA of Calcutta , other institutions are fast
coming up in Calcutta.The participation of bengalees and bengal
residents are growing up by leaps and bounds, we are now
housing(for a greater part of the year) many famous artistes of
the sub-continent ranging from Rais Khan,Ghulam
Ali,Asfaqullah,SelimAldin(Bangladesh),and others to the
innumerous performing groups of the sub-continent(Sri lanka
included).The worship technology is more or less very
predominantly centered around the folk and classical musical
tradition, all of which are direct gifts of Islam in Bengal. The
Sari,Jari,Bhatiali,Kirtans,Bhowaia are some of the
examples.Except for Jhumur,Itu and other forms which were
exclusively the product of the Western part of West Bengal we
have all the forms being generated in the Nawabi period
particaipated by the muslims.
The Bengali literature started its institutional journey from
the Nawabi period when for the first time ,against the
strictures of the Upadhaya Brahmins , all the Hindu religious
epics were translated by the muslims or by being patronized by
the Nawabs of Gaur.Later the tradition was carried on by the
Christian missinories and the Christian converts . The rise of
Muslims in our literary sector had always amazed Bengalees . The
present established figure of Abu Said Ayub(principally a Urdu
speaking(-as born-) literature ) being the authority on
Rabindronath and Dr. Hoshenur Rahman(official authority of
Ramrkrishna Mission on Vivekananda and Ramkrishna) speaks
volumes for such a trend.The present bengali literary movement
boasts about Abul Bashar,Mustafa Shiraj,Aftar Ahmed and of
course those stalwarts from Bangladesh viz. Shamsur
Rahman,Anisuzzaman,Akhtaruzzaman Ilias et al .People from every
walks of life and of every religion consider them as their most
favourite authors (judging by the number of books sold).
There is hardly any walk of life in present day bengal which was
not contributed by Islam through its followers.Well, fanatics in
Bangladesh , their counterparts of Sahabuddins are always going
to kick up some hue and cry , but they are never in any
description of limelight in West Bengal.The present election
results in BD has conclusively proved how the Bangladeshi people
feel about them.With the present govt in BD things are
definitely going to improve.
The question is if Quran teaches to kill all the non-muslims how
come for so many millenium general bengalees have lived together
side by side and are still not having much problem at least in
the same proportion as West or North India.The answer is simple,
the people are smart enough to extract out the essence of Quran
and not the stupid literal meaning .They do not find the overall
teaching of Quran conflicting with their day to day life of
tolerance and co-existence. People still go together to many
combined worship spot in many parts of the land of Bangla, they
still repect KAnai and Doyal Allah in the same musical
expressions throughout and are not bothered about what some
loosers upper-caste-brahminical nincompoops have to say.They are
much more mature than these jumping jacks to have any impact in
the land of PAdma-GAnga-Meghna-BRohmoputra.The tradition of"Mora
eki brinte duti phool hindu-mussalman" still is reverberated in
"Padma amar MA,Ganga amar ma " and in the villages "AMi shei
dukaner thikana khunji jetha Hari,Allah God eki thalar theke
khai".Let VHP wag their tales as much as they can , watch out it
might fall off in overwork!!!
Mahmud Husain
Thank you Soumitra for your post.I guess it is important for our
non-Bengali friends to have a perspective of the history and culture of
Bengal.The assimilative trends of Bengali culture,the anti-imperialist
stance of its populace as well as the incessant struggle for self
determination that charecterized its political life,at least from the
period of Sasanka(circa 700 A.D.) needs to be taken into account before
anybody passes judgement on the events in the Bengali speaking areas of
the Indian subcontinent.Recently there was a post challenging the hindu
muslim amity in Bengal as a myth,presumably by someone who didnt' do
thier homework on the unique nature of Bengali culture.It is the only
region of the Indian subcontinent which consistently resisted invaders,be
they be Aryan,Mughal or British.It is also the only ethno-linguistic
group in the Indian subcontinent to succeed in establishing a national
homeland,however truncated,in the form of independent Bangladesh.The
national and cultural aspirations of the Bengalis are yet to be fulfilled
in its entirety,but this is an ongoing historical process the culmination
of which is yet to unfold.
Bengal is unique too in respect to its distinction as harboring all the
three major religions of the subcontinent,namely Hinduism,Buddhism and
Islam,all of which was the dominant religion in different historical
epochs.These religious traditions and thier cultural legacies blended
into the Bengali melting pot of nationalities and created the syncretic
culture of the present day Bengalis.It is noteworthy too that the more
tolerant schools of the respective traditions flourished in Bengal e.g.
Vajrayana,Vaishanavism and Sufism propagated by the likes of the Churashi
Siddhas,Chaitanyadev and the Bara Aulias.Aggresive assimalitive trends
have been the characteristic feature of the social life of Bengal
throughout its history.
Thanks again Soumitra for initiating this discussion and in drawing
attention to some very important aspects of our complex heritage.
Hopefully it will illuminate those who are apt to make sweeping
generalizations about a culture which defies them.
N. Tiwari
Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: The face of Islam which humanized India and Hinduism
Soumitra:
I will give a detailed response to this post in a couple
of days. But could you explain one major fact. How is
it that the percentage of Hindus in B'desh has fallen
from 40% to a measly 10%. Does your syncretism explain
it. Also, could you tell me as to why Chakmas are running
away from B'desh.
If you cannot explain that, then all your theory is a false
hood. Or else, please enlighten.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
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nisankarao chandrasekhar
Mahmud Husain (mhu...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Thank you Soumitra for your post.I guess it is important for our
: non-Bengali friends to have a perspective of the history and culture of
: Bengal.The assimilative trends of Bengali culture,the anti-imperialist
: stance of its populace as well as the incessant struggle for self
: determination that charecterized its political life,at least from the
: period of Sasanka(circa 700 A.D.) needs to be taken into account before
: anybody passes judgement on the events in the Bengali speaking areas of
: the Indian subcontinent.Recently there was a post challenging the hindu
: muslim amity in Bengal as a myth,presumably by someone who didnt' do
: thier homework on the unique nature of Bengali culture.It is the only
: region of the Indian subcontinent which consistently resisted invaders,be
: they be Aryan,Mughal or British.It is also the only ethno-linguistic
Could you please explain who partitioned Bengal. It was a British
Viceroy. How could an area that resisted invaders be partitioned
by an Invader?
: group in the Indian subcontinent to succeed in establishing a national
: homeland,however truncated,in the form of independent Bangladesh.The
Hello there! Bangladesh was created by India; the majority of the
people who fought against the Pakis were North Indians. Yet after
so much Indian blood was spilt, we once again seen the Bangladeshi
sucking up to the Pakis. What a waste of the numerous Indians who
sacrificed themselves for such a bunch of turncoats and quislings.
The Govt. of India if it has any spine should ask soldiers posted on
India-Bangladesh border to shoot on sight any intruders.
: national and cultural aspirations of the Bengalis are yet to be fulfilled
: in its entirety,but this is an ongoing historical process the culmination
: of which is yet to unfold.
: Bengal is unique too in respect to its distinction as harboring all the
: three major religions of the subcontinent,namely Hinduism,Buddhism and
: Islam,all of which was the dominant religion in different historical
: epochs.These religious traditions and thier cultural legacies blended
: into the Bengali melting pot of nationalities and created the syncretic
: culture of the present day Bengalis.It is noteworthy too that the more
: tolerant schools of the respective traditions flourished in Bengal e.g.
: Vajrayana,Vaishanavism and Sufism propagated by the likes of the Churashi
: Siddhas,Chaitanyadev and the Bara Aulias.Aggresive assimalitive trends
: have been the characteristic feature of the social life of Bengal
: throughout its history.
: Thanks again Soumitra for initiating this discussion and in drawing
: attention to some very important aspects of our complex heritage.
: Hopefully it will illuminate those who are apt to make sweeping
: generalizations about a culture which defies them.
Firstly you should stop indulging in wishful thinking and fantasizing
prior to making any sweeping and idiotic statements. Your article
reflects your asininity. What on earth do you mean by such a weird
statement as "aggressive assimilative trends"? Who are the Banglas
going to assimilate with if they have never been invaded or
conquered?
Rajiv Varma
April 1995
Ethnic cleansing in Bangladesh
(by Ramen Bando)
Violation of Human Rights in Bangladesh in the ethnic cleansing operation
by the fundamentalist Muslims aided and abetted by successive governments
warrant immediate International intervention.The continuing atrocities
perpetrated towards the religious minority communities cannot be described
in words.Some ofthe cases which came to our notice of late are added here
to the un-ending list.
List of some incidents re: l993 - 1994 -1995
1. On 4th April 1993, about 25 Muslims led by the Imam of the local mosque
raided, looted and assaulted 10 Hindu guests of Paresh Chandra Sil of
viUage - Bishaura of Police Station Habibgunj while he was performing the
religious ceremony for his departed father.
2. On 13th April 1993, in the village of Khona, Police Station - Shamnagar
of district Satkhira, a gang of armed Muslims led by Rashed Ali Gazi of
neighbouring village of Durmujkhali, attacked Lord Shiva Temple, molested
the Hindu girls while they were worshipping, desecrated the temple and
damaged the idol. This had happened before the very presence of the
police.
3. On 29th May 1993, two of the black stone idols of Hindu deities worth
ten lacs takas were taken away after breaking-in of the Kali Temple of
Narail Town.
4. On 6th December 1993, the corrugated tin plates allotted for the repair
of Hindu Temples, destroyed during communal disturbance in Police Station
- Tajmuddin, Police Station Borhanuddin and Police Station - Lalmohan in
Bhola district, were instead distributed to the mosques. The Hindu temples
received no assistance whatsoever for the damage suffered.
5. On 7th December 1993, between 1 and 3 pm, a gang of Muslim youths
raided the settlement of Hindu Bawali tribe in the Sharankhola Police
Station, District - Bagerhat and gang-raped young girls and forcibly
married women of the community. One Bawali youth, while resisting the
miscreants, was shot at and seriously injured. No one had been arrested.
6. On 19th December 1993, at about 2 pm, a gang of Muslim youths led by
one Mitu, tried to kidnap the 16 year old daughter of Manindra Nath Sarkar
( a Hindu ) of villages - Chaultuli, Police Station - Molarhat, District -
Bagerhat. Their attempt was foiled by united resistance of the local
Hindus. The next day ( 20.12.93 ), they attacked again, severely assaulted
Manindra Nath Sarkar and his wife and gang-raped their 16 year old
daughter. A local Hindu youth, Panchanan Mridha was seriously injured
while resisting and hospitalised. The assailants have been torturing other
Hindu famiIies in the villages and the local authority is not taking any
action. The Hindus, under continuous threat and apprehension, are planning
to leave for India en-masse for security.
7. On 2nd February 1994, one 16 year old Christian girl, Lucia Mandal,
daughter of Kalipada Mandal was abducted from the Jhikargacho Hospital by
Emanuel Haque, 26 years, son of Habibur Rahman of village Baharampur,
Police Station - Bagherpara of District Jessore. She was confined to the
house of Emannuel Haque for 12 days and was repeatedly raped by him before
her release on 14th February 1994.
8. On 8th February 1994, about 22 Muslim youths armed with lethal weapons
had raided the house of Tarapada Sarkar, a Hindu of Bishnupur Village,
Police Station & District Narail, looted valuables worth about .60,000
takas-, severely assaulted the old men, women and children, shouted at
them calling them 'Kafirs', threatening them to leave Bangladesh if they
valued their lives.
9. On 16th February 1994, the local Muslims raided the premises of
Batiaghata College of Police Station - Batiaghata, District - Khulna;
Dildarpur High School, Police Station Khalaura, District - Sylhet, where
Hindu students were preparing for Saraswati Puja (worshipping the Goddess
of Learning). They resorted to brick-batting and arson, thus compelling
the Hindus to abandon their religious festival.
10. For months, the Hindu villages in the Police Station - Jakigunj,
District - Sylhet, are being raided repeatedly by the Muslims and the
Hindus are being warned to leave forthwith their homes in Bangladesh with
the slogan - " Kafirs have no place in Bangladesh! ".
11. During the time of last Dusserah Festival ( Durga Puja ), Muslirn
fundamentalists attacked and bombed the Hindu places of worship in Mirpur,
Dhaka, Norsingdhi, Borisal etc. and destroyed the deities of Goddess
Durga.
12. 1 October 1994: In the village of Dhopakhali, P S.Amtoli,Dist-Barguna,
the present chairman of Pangasia Union Board, Mohammad Nuru Hazi and his
accomplices raided the house of Mr Satish Hawlader at dead hours of night,
ransacked his house and had beaten all the members of his family
.threatening them ' Non-muslims have no place in Bangladesh and you must
leave for Hindustan'. Mrs Hawlader was gang-raped and their cow was
slaughtered and cut to pieces before their eyes in the lawn. This drama
continued for about two hours without any hindrance whatsoever . (m).
13. 2 October 1994: In the village of Pacha Koralia Charpara, P S Taltola,
Dist-Barguna, the local chairman of B.N.Party, Amjad Ali forcibly abducted
the 34 year old Mrs Sita Hawlader widow of Rati Kanta Hawlader, forcibly
converted her to Islam and went through a muslim marriage.The whole
property of Hawlader family has also been usurped by Ali. (m)
14. 17 October 1994: In P S Baniachak of Dist. Habigunj, the Hindu
headteacher of local Gazipur prirnary school, Mr Jamini Roy was kidnapped
by the Jamaeet-e-Islam leader Karim Mullah. Safiq Mia, Ansar Ali, Biru
Mia, Enayet Shaikh and others.The corpse of Mr Roy was found in Magura
thana(p.s) area after two days.The Hindus have been suffering inhuman
atrocities in the two villages of Gazipur and Anwarpur. Meanwhile, the
Jamaat-e-Islami leader, Safiq Mia has also usurped the farm-land of Mr
Sakhicharan Das of Gazipur village
15. 12 September 1994: In the village-Batbari, P.s and District-Gopalgunj,
about 400 -strong armed Muslim youths had made a sudden raid on the
innocent Hindu households, sexually assaulted the Hindu women,looted tbeir
properties and injured more than a hundred of villagers.(mm)
16. In the village-Surasur,P.s,Muksudpur,District-Gopalgunj, Auwal
Mia,Chandu Mia,Rejaul Mia, Gamutar Mia tried to dispossess Susen Barai son
of Kanailal Barai,a Hindu, of his two and half an acre of farm land and
his residential home through a fake land deed .Susen Barai .had filed a
petition against this fake transfer deed on 23 October 1993.This
legitimate action by a 'kafirs'.outraged the miscreants and they made an
armed raid on their homestead. Susen was mercilessly beaten, stabbed in
the chest and died. in hospital. Swapan Barai,the brother has filed a case
no.315/94 Memo no.26466 in the Muksudpur police station.. There is no
record of arrest and now,the Barai family is being intimidated by the
police instead to withdraw the case.The efforts to involve the higher
authority for redress also had been of no avail.(mm)
17. 20 December 1994: In the village of Bada Talian,P S Kaligunj of
Dist-Jhinaidaha, a 30 strong muslim youths,equipped with firearms, raided
the house of Mr Sarajit Biswas at 1 am, kidnapped him and extorted a
ransom of 30,000 takas. The kidnappers threatened the family to leave
Bangladesh within 24 hours,otherwise suffer complete annihilation. Mr
Biswas was thus forced to leave his home and hearth for an indefinite
destination, leaving behind about 5-acres of farmland, single-storeyed
residential home,three hundred thousand rupees worth of business for
good..The armed Muslim youths have created panic thus persecuting the
Hindus in 50 square miles area of Kaligunj, Magura, Jhinaidaha and
Salikha.These fundamentalists are alleged to have full support from the
Agriculture Minister,Majedul Huq. (m)
18. 18 January 1995: In the P.s -Monirampur,District Jessore, the Muslim
members ofthe socalled 'Sarbahara Party', aided by the government force,
raided and demanded ransom of 25000 taka, from Mahitosh Das of
village-Jalakar Rohita; 50 000 taka from Patit Paban Ghosh of Village
-Patigram; 10 000 taka from Bimal Pal of village-Erenda .They were
threatened to be exterminated on failure to pay the ransom..The local
police authority was informed but are taking no action whatsoever. (mm)
19. 30 January: A group of Muslim youths raided the place of Hindu worship
called ' Madanmohan Akhra' at village Gobindapur of P.S. Bakergunj,
District Barisal during night and destroyed all the deities..The Hindu
community had no remedy to stop this onslaught. As a protest ,they had
just boycotted the auspicious 'Maghi Saptami Mela' this year.(mm)
20. In the village of Kharinchi,P.s- Mamrampur,District- Jessore, the
local Muslim youths,equipped with firearms, have demanded a ransom of 50
000 taka from Mr Narayan Chandra Sarkar, a Hindu villager. Failure to pay
means loss of his ancestral home and-hearth in Bangladesh or the other
alternative 'death'.(mm)
21. In the village of Bejberia,P.S-Lohagara, Dist.Narail, Miss Parabashi
Pal, a Hindu Intermediate Arts student (age 22 ) ,daughter of Late Mrityun
Pal was abducted by a leader of B.N.Party of the Bangladeshi government in
power, Shahid Mullah ,son of Chand Mullah of village-Jalalasee, p.s,
Lohagara; forcibly converted her to Islam and made her to marry him
against her will..Shahid by intimidating her mother compelled transfer of
five bighas of her land in his favour and had forfeited whole amount ofthe
loan received against mortgage ofthe other five bighas of her land. The
other members of the family are also being inhmidated to be converted to
Islam. (mm)
(m) Mayer Dak 2 Febuary 1995
(mm) Mayer Dak 2 March 1995
Nikhil Banga Nagarik Sangha (U K)
34 Crossway
London N16 8HZ
--
regards,
Rajiv
Rajiv Varma
Minorities in Bangladesh
Year Total Population Minorities
-------------------------------------------
1941 41,997,287 29.3%
1951 44,165,750 23.1%
1961 55,222,663 19.6%
1974 76,389,000 14.3%
1981 89,921,000 13.3%
What happened Soumitra Da? Does Islamic "syncretism" really mean ethnic
cleansing of minorities in your dictionary?
Knock, Knock!
--
regards,
Rajiv
Rajiv Varma
Table 2: MINORITY HIRING IN BANGLADESH
Administration (Officers) 5%
Administration (lower rank) 3-5%
Administration (secretaries) 0%
Customs and Excise 0%
Income-tax officials 1.5%
Military Officers 1.5%
Military soldiers 0%
Border Security 0%
Police Officers 6%
Police rank and file 2.5%
Major Bank Managers 0%
Embassy & Consulate staff 0%
Foreign Assignments 0%
Home Ministry 0%
Judiciary 0%
Industry managers 0%
Industrial laborers 3-4%
Recent bank loans < 1%
Source: Cultural Survival Quarterly, Winter 1992
Soumitra dada ..... where are you?
--
regards,
Rajiv
Rajiv Varma
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
House of Representatives
Washington DC 20515
November 13, 1992
Prime Minsiter Khaleda Zia
C/O Embassy of Bangladesh
201 Wisconsin Avenue, Suite 300
Washington, D.C. 20007
Dear Madam Prime Minister:
We members of the United States House of Representatives, are
writing to express our strong concern over reports of a massacre in the
Chittagong Hill Tracts of your country.
According to reliable reports, on April 10 1992, the town of
Logong in the Chittagong Hill Tracts was surrounded by Bengali settlers
accompanied by paramilitary forces. The inhabitants of the town were then
systematically murdered. Military officials in Khagrachari admit to over
130 dead; estimates from Amnesty International and human rights
organizations in Bangladesh range up to 600 or more. Eyewitnesses report
that the entire village was burned to the ground.
We are shocked and upset by these reports, which suggest the
killing of innocent victims on a tremendous scale. The continuing efforts
to subdue the people of the Chittagong Hill Tracts has been marked by
repeated accusations that the government security forces have violated
thebasic human rights of the inhabitants of that area. Reports of torture,
rape, and execution have been common for several years.
Although we understand that your government is engaged in an
ongoing conflict with the armed opposition group Shanti Bahini, rebellion
can never be an excuse for murdering civilians, much less full scale
massacre. We call on your government 0take an immediate, full and
impartial investigation into these reports, and to punish those
responsible.
We are also concerned that these events are even a larger pattern
in your country of mistreatment of religious minorities. The
estableishment of Islam as a state religion continues to cause concern
among Hindu, Christian, and Buddhist minorities; reports of attacks on
religious minorities are common. Furthermore, several million Bangla-
deshi Buddhists remain refugees in India.
The time has come for the government of Bangladesh to take action
in rectifying this situation, in line with its position as a
constitutional democracy and a responsible member of the world community.
Great changes have taken place in your country over the last two years,
changes that are applauded by democracies thorughout the world. Action on
these issues will show your commitment to upholding international human-
and civil-rights standards. We look forward to a response from your
government to our concerns.
(The following U.S. Congressmen signed this letter)
Thomas M. Foglietta Gary L. Ackerman
Henry A Waxman Elliot L. Engel
Dana Rohrabacher Bernard Sanders
Christopher H. Smith Nancy Pelosi
Edolphus Towns Mike Espy
Richard H. Stallings Frank Pallone, Jr.
Peter A. DeFazio Austin J. Murphy
Constance A. Morella Ronald K. Machtley
Michael R. McNulty
--
regards,
Rajiv
Rajiv Varma
India Abroad
(ethnic Indian paper, US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
January, 1989
BANGLADESH REFUGEE PROBLEM
Agartala (Reuters) - Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi said on Jan 18
that New Delhi was gravely worried by an influx of refugees from
neighboring Bangladesh.
He told reporters that the flow of Hindu refugees had grown since
the Bangladesh Parliament passed a constitutional amendment last June
making Islam the country's state religion and said that many were victims
of religious intolerance.
HOPING FOR A STOPPAGE
Gandhi, who was campaigning in north-east India for last week's
elections in Nagaland and Mizoram, said New Delhi was discussing the
problem with Bangladesh.
"But we have to be sure the influx stops," he said. "It threatens
fresh trouble in the sensitive northeast Indian states."
The government told parliament recently that more than 25,000
Hindu refugees had crossed from predominantly Muslim Bangladesh in a
three-month period up to last November.
Tripura is already home to some 45,000 Buddhist Chakma refugees
from the Chittagong Hill Tracts of Bangladesh who have been living in
camps for up to three years.
"Our smaller worry is because we have to feed and shelter the
refugees whose numbers seem to be swelling" said Gandhi. "But our bigger
worry is because of the reason they keep coming. That is religious
intolerance."
Many refugees say they fled Bangladesh to escape persecution, but
they are not welcome in India's northeastern states where locals say they
fear an economic takeover by the migrants.
UNNATURAL DISASTERS
Pogroms have killed thousands of Bangladeshi
minorities; millions more are refugees in India.
by G.R.Chowdhury
In the West, Bangladesh is synonym for poverty, a basket case
nation with a soaring population, a pitiful economy, and a plague of
natural disasters. Less well known is that the country's minorities have
long waged one of the world's most difficult and serious strugglrs for
survival. Successive military- and bovernment-sponsored pogroms have
killed thousands of minority Bangladeshis outright, while the fortunate
ones have become refugees in India.
In perhaps the most dramatic instance, the Pakistan army killed
three million people in nine months during the course of Bangladesh's 1971
war of independence. Ten million refugees took shelter in India. Most
victims were members of the Hindu minority.
Today attacks on minorities and their cultures take many forms.
Minorities are the victims of government-sponsored pogroms and riots as
well as a ban on the hiring of minorities. Moreover, they suffer police,
military, and judicial inaction in the face of individual and
Muslim-sponsored terror, discrimination, and repression.
A particularly glaring case is the Enemy Property Act, initially
passed in 1949, then renamed in 1965 and 1972. Under this law the
government can confiscate minority properties and businesses with no
compensation or notice simply by declaring a person to be an enemy of the
state. Between 1975 and 1989, the Bangladesh government confiscated 1.5
million acres of land from the nation's minorities, in addition to hoines,
fishing ponds, shops and businesses. A November 1991 report indicates that
60 percent of minority property may have already been confiscated.
ROOTS OF VIOLENCE
Though born as a country only 20 years ago, Bangladesh is an
ancient land with a long history. Together with the present-day Indian
state of West Bengal, ancient Indian scrptures refer to it as Banga Desh
(land). Banga, which the English called Bengal, covers the world's largest
delta, that of the rivers Ganga and Brahmaputra.
For millenia, the Bengal area of the Indian subcontinent has had a
mixture of religious, lingusitic, and ethnic groups. In Bangladesh,
today's minorities are Hindus, Buddhists, and Christians, as well as
plains and hill tribal peoples and speakers of various tribal and Urdu
languages. The fate of all these groups have come to be linked to that of
Hindu Bengalis, who constitute more than 95 percent of the minorities.
The Muslim presence dates at least from the fourteenth century,
when non-native Muslim kings-Pathans and Mughals-became rulers of Bengal.
However, Bengalis had started embracing Islam even before then, and Muslim
rule expedited the process. In the seventeenth century, Muslim power
declined throughout India as British power rose, but relations among
Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists remained relatively peaceful.
Two hundred years of British rule dramatically changed the
relations between Bengal's Hindus and Muslims. An early British acttion
that may mark the first distancing of Hindus from Muslims was the
Parliament Settlement Act. This 1792 law vested Bengal's tax collection in
the hands of the overwhelmingly Hindu gentry at a time when most peasants
were Muslim. (Muslim rulers also depended heavily on this Hindu gentry for
governing Bengal.)
More completely, religion based=politics in Bangladesh-known in
the region as "communalism"-originated in Britain's partitioning of Bengal
in 1905 on the basis of religion. Western Bengal, with a Hindu majority,
formed one province, and Muslim East Bengal another. The British claimed
that the area was too large to adminster as one unit, but mostly Hindu
nationalists accused the British of a divide-and-rule policy that injected
religion into Indian politics. The English exacerbated the tensions by
granting several benefits to Muslim elites at the cost of the Hindu
middle-class. After much agitation, in particular from the nationalists,
Britain reunited Bengal in 1912, but communal politics remained a
permanent feature there, as in all India.
Still, a precarious balance existed in Bengal until the late
1940s. In 1946, on the eve of Indian independence and the partition of
India into India and Pakistan, a ghastly pogrom supported by the ruling
Muslim league administration in Bengal, occurred against poor, rural
Hindus in the eastern Noakhali district. Estimates of the number of Hindus
murdered varies, from a government figure of 1,000 to unofficial figures
of tens of thousands. Thsi killing created the term "Noakhalir danga"
(Noakhali Riot), and it set the stage for the future of minorities in
Bangladesh.
Mahatma Gandhi intervened to stop the Noakhali carnage, but after
Pakistan came into being tjere was no Mahatma to stop the killing of
Hindus and other minorities. Anti-Hindu pogroms in East Pakistan took
place in 2847, 1949, 1951, 1952, 1954, 1956, 1964, and 1971. Pakistan's
military-bureaucratic rulers routinely used anti-Hindu riots and
anti-India slogans to slow the growth of Bengali nationalism.
In 1964, at th of the Bengali nationalist movement, Pakistan
unleashed a reign of terror. Estimates of number of Hindus murdered varies
from 10,000 to several times that. Newspapers in India reported this event
extensively, but those in Pakistan only noted that even Muslims were
killed by trying to save Hindu neighbors. The New York TImes failed to
cover the tragedy, although the Washinton Post and the London TImes that
over 1,000 were killed in the first days of the killing, including a U.S.
priest.
Then came the 1971 independence war during which Pakistan targeted
Hindus and other minorities, affecting the homes and businesses of almost
all Hindu families. Over 70 percent of those killed and those who became
refugees were Hindu and other minorities. Bengali police and the
Pakistani army frequently stopped men, stripped them naked to check
whether they were circumsized or not, and asked them to recite from the
Koran. Non-Muslim women were practically barred from anything that would
idnetify them as such, since their identification as anything but Muslim
could mean instant death. Many books cover this subject, almost all in
Bengali; Bhayabaha Aviggata (Terrifying Experience) covering 50 instances
in which the Pakistan army and its collaborators murdered Hindus and
Muslims, in one case soldiers shot to death 338 Hindus at Syedpur in Norh
Bengal after loading them in railway box cars.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--
regards,
Rajiv
Rajiv Varma
SOUTH ASIA FORUM, quarterly Vol 4, No 4 : Fall, 1991
LEGAL LYNCHING AND EXODUS OF MINORITIES
FROM BANGLADESH
Dr. Nim C. Bhowmick
The story of the minorities in Bangladesh is the story of tears, sorrows
and untold sufferings. The tragedy began as soon as the Sub- continent was
partitioned on the basis of the "two nation theory". and East Bengal
became part of the virtually theocratic state called Pakistan. No sooner
was Pakistan born, the prosecution of the minorities began. No matter how
influential and well connected a person was, his or her loyalty was
questioned. So about ten lakh (one million) of the minority communities
migrated to India within one year of partition. Another lot of over 10
lakh (1 mil.) people migrated following the large scale communal
disturbances in the 1950s.
The exodus however dropped down following the 1954 elections and
the United Party victory, where 72 members from the minority communities
were elected to the legislative assembly.
But the old pattern of exodus and persecution started with full
force when Ayub Khan promulgated martial law in the country and abrogated
the constitution. Six top minority leaders were declared disqualified for
office under an ordinance called the Elective Body Disqualification Act of
1959. As a result, the confidence of the minority communties was further
shattered. Then came another communal riot in 1964, engineered by the
ruling authority. This even intensified migration of the minorities to
neighboring India.
Certain legislative acts or ordinances of the Paksitani government
forced the minorities to leave the country without being able to dispose
of the moveable and immoveable properties. Such enactment in the East
Bengal Evacuee Property (Restoration Possession) Act of 1951, the East
Bengal Evacuees (Administration of Immovable Property) Act of 1951, the
East Bengal Prevention of Transfer of Property and Removable of Documents
and Records Act of 1952, the East Pakistan Disturbed Persons
(Rehabilitation) Ordinanace of 1954 (the act provided that properties
belonging to the members of the minority communities could not be sold
without government permission), the Defense of Pakistan Ordinance (of
September 6, 1965) and rules under it, which were the source of East
Pakistan Enemy Property (Lands and Buildings) administration and Disposal
orders of 1966, etc, are all examples of the state sponsored tyranny
against the minority communities in today's Bangladesh over the last forty
odd years.
The minority communities fully participated in the War of
Liberation and expected that in the newly liberated country they will
enjoy the status of full citizens and equal rights with the members of the
majority community. The spirit of the liberation war was rightly reflected
in the 1972 constitution, where apart from other progressive provisions,
it was codified that secularism would be one of the four basic state
principles. But in practice, the prosecution of the minorities continued
even after the independence. FOr example, the Ramna Temple of Goddess
Kali, which was destroyed by the Pakistani government was not
reconstructed.
Indications of the continued state policy of discrimination
against the minorities in Bangladesh are its continued enforcement of the
East Pakistan Enemy Property Act mentioned before. As if that were not
enough, the Vested and Nonresident Property Act was promulgated in 1974.
According to a pact between India and bangladesh, no member of the
minority community could be entitled to the citizenship of India. But the
hard reality is that no member of the minority communities is secure in
Bangladesh. and the exodus goes on unabated, even though in India they
face uncertain future. The exodus became widespread after 1975. It should
be noted here that the promise of secularism in the 1972 was thrown out
and it was given Islamic bias, thus shattering the very promise of the War
of Liberation. Things have continued to get worse. The Vested and
Nonresident Ordinance was re-promulgated in 1976, and another Circular was
issued on May 23, 1979. Under these provisions, a Tahasildar (tax
collector), a Circle Officer, Sub-divisional Officer, Additional Deputy
Commissioner or a Commissioner, that is members of local adminstration,
can declare the property of any member of the minority communities who is
suspected of being an "enemy", the "enemy (vested) property", essentially
taking away
đerty from the owner. Any relief from this action can be given
only my Ministers, who are very inaccessible to the ordinary people,
especially to the minorities. To encourage continuous dispossession of
the minorities, the circualr has made provisions to reward those who
inform on the so called "enemy". As a result of these policies since the
formation of the political entity called East Pakistan, 60 percent of the
population belonging to the minorities have been taken away forcibly. In
Table 1 are presented the population statistics for the country for forty
years. (Note: Article continues after table)
Table 1: Minorities in bangladesh
Year Muslims Minorities
% %
1941 70.3 29.7
1951 76.9 23.1
1961 80.4 19.6
1974 85.4 14.6
1981 86.6 13.4
It can be seen that between 1974 and 1981, ie, after the War of
Liberation, which held so much promise for the country and especially for
the minorities, the population declined by 1.2%. This is also reflected in
the decline of the minority populationin some of the districts, as shown
in Table 2. (Note: Article continues after table)
Table 2: Minorities in Bangladesh: Some Major Population Centers.
District 1974 1981
Faridpur 960,000 911,000
Pabna 267,000 254,000
Rajshahi 561,000 504,000
Chittagong Hills 412,000 391,000
According to the World Almanac, the percentage of religious and
national minorities in Bangladesh is 18.5. Though the government's
intention is to under represent the minorities, it cannot hide the extent
of their exodus from the country. From the government's own data, it is
found that in 7 years between 1974 and 1981, about 12 lakh (1.2 mils)
religious and national minorities had left the country. According to this
estimate, some forty lakh (4 million) people belonging to the minority
communities have been forced out of the country in the last twenty years.
Communal disturbances in 1986, in November of 1989, October of 1990, and
February of 1991, have continued to add add to the helplessness of the
members of the minority communitiesin the country.
It was anticipated that the 1991 census would find the population
of the minorities in the country to be about 1.2 crore (12 million); but
the actual count showed it to be much less. The reason is the climate of
intimidation, insecurity, and helplessness and the concomitant forced
exodus of the minorities from Bangladesh.
[Dr. Nim C. Bhowmik teaches at Dhaka University in Bangladesh.]
--
regards,
Rajiv
Mariam Ispahani
nisankarao chandrasekhar wrote: [previous post deleted sorry]
[stuff deleted]
> Hello there! Bangladesh was created by India; the majority of the
> people who fought against the Pakis were North Indians. Yet after
> so much Indian blood was spilt, we once again seen the Bangladeshi
> sucking up to the Pakis. What a waste of the numerous Indians who
> sacrificed themselves for such a bunch of turncoats and quislings.
> The Govt. of India if it has any spine should ask soldiers posted on
Hello - I get this same line of questioning from my Indian friends when
ever the topic comes up... "India helped BD and now BD supports Pakistan,
why?" Firstly, I would like to say that India did not help BD primarily
for the sake of helping it's neightbor. They helped BD based on a lot of
self interests. Secondly, as for Bangladeshis preferring Pakistanis to
Indians, that is not entirely true. I think it is the religion - Islam
that binds them, but there is still animosity and resentment towards the
Pakistanis for what happened in '71. Let's discuss all this....
Mariam...(*_*)
http://www.skypoint.com/~mariam
Soumitra Bose
>Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: The face of Islam which humanized India and Hinduism
>
>Soumitra:
>
>I will give a detailed response to this post in a couple
>of days. But could you explain one major fact. How is
>it that the percentage of Hindus in B'desh has fallen
>from 40% to a measly 10%. Does your syncretism explain
>it. Also, could you tell me as to why Chakmas are running
>away from B'desh.
>
>If you cannot explain that, then all your theory is a false
>hood. Or else, please enlighten.
>
>--
I always thought that You are at least a little bit intelligent in
reading through the text, I am sorry I was wrong. In my article I
clearly mentioned that the 20 years of militarism and Saudisation has
messed up the Bangladesh situation, I always maintain that the people
and sub-altern of Bangladesh had been fighting and are still fighting
against any such Saudiisation of their country. The women of BD has
risen more than any part of the sub-continent. The point is that of an
ideology and view-point .PEople like us always look at the burgeoning
power of people through their movements and protests in action and
people like you always see the darker side of the people, simply
because of the minority attitude and parasitic attitude of your party.
In BD the Jamaat got only 2 seats the BNP is routed and even BNP wioth
JAtiyo PArty could not form the govt , now that is how Bangladeshis
have replied in the first round to the communalists, many more rounds
are still left , after many years the people has started their journey
to the achievement of the spirit of liberation , Let's wait and see ,
things may not change overnight. Even in SCB there are more BDeshis
protesting against the torture on the minorities than the number in
SCI.HAd Bengalis of Wbengal would not have been in India , these Indian
news-groups would not have seen countable protests other than fanatics
of Khalistan hue. This itself proves that BEngalees in general are the
same anywhere in the world , they do not approve of any fanatic
fundamentalist politics.Bangladesh is many more times closer to Wbengal
now and the struggle against minority oppression is tremendously strong
out there.
BABU RAMABADRAN
HI netters:
I am writing this article in respone to the article posted by soumitra
bose. Any netter how is reading our debate will be familiar wiht the
background. The issue was the hindu-muslim riots in calcutta. The
discussion continued and people started accepting that the relations
between the hindus and muslims are not cordial in bengals (as it is in
any other part of the world). The article written by SOUMITR BOSE
reflects his desperation to deny the truth. He started with the lie
that the relations between the hindus and the muslims have always been
cordial in the bengals. But when he was shown the evidences like the
news reports indicating that the riots in Calcutta were mastered by
Muslim communal leaders and that the hindus voters were intimidtad in
the recently held elections in the bangla desh.
when faced wiht the bitter truth, soumitra basu changed his argument
and said that the realtions between hindu and muslims were cordial but
are spoiled by the presence of non-bengali hindus in bengal. He was
particularly criticla of north indian.
However he was not able to provide any solid arguments that then why
the hindus ( 12% of bangladesh populations) were intimidated in the
general elections. He was speech less. Rather he wrote a big article
with lot of white lies. He was particularly critical of BJP/VHP, as if
BJP was there when bengal was first divided in 1905 and in 1947. He
should explain what role was played by BJP and VHP in the partition of
bengal. Do not be surprised if he argues that the Bal Thackery was the
main cause of partition of bengal.
I have summarized his article in before going further. I have not
tried to reply line by line, however have appended the original post of
Soumitara at the end of my article/reply.
His article is based upon the communist theory that fundamental
motive behind all the struggles is to overcome class difference. His
article is based upon the following.
1. The islam was brought to bengal by the SUFI saints therefore was
peaceful . No sword was used to convert bengalis to imslam.
2. The JEHAD was tool for internal and external development of society.
He ignores the violent face of JEHAD of which many referances have been
posted on net.
3. The islam was adopted becaue the Buddhism ( which was adopted
earlier by bengalis) failed to remove the cast differences. Then if the
islam is a class less society, then why differences still exist.
4. Islam was adopted by ambitious people of bengal who saw there dreams
in casteless islam. ( he forgot that the islam sanctifies slavery and
polygamy etc). What is the class of slave??????
Based above the above arguments he concludes that the Partition of
bengal was to remove the caste differences, to facilitate upward
mobility of people , get rid if untouchability etc.
Here I will provide the real face of sufi saints for the readers.
Rest all are self evident from that description.
SUFI CULTS
===========
Saints, traders and soilders were the agent of the Islamic expansion
in South Asia. These three categories are sometime difficult to
distinguish. Sufi centres were at the same time centere of religion,
trade and political power. In the costan areas, the Arab traders from
the Persian Gulf were first to introduce islam , while Turkish armies
brought Islam in the North. Whether the expansion was via trade or
conquest, the Sufi saints were however the first to explore the
frontier. Sufi Saints do not refer to something as vague as "ISLAMIC
MYSTICS" , but to brotherhood(tariqat) of people by vow of allegiance
to a saint(pir), who claims to belong to a spiritual lineage going back
to the founder of the brotherhood and ultimately to the Prophet
Mohammad himslef. Most brotherhood were founded outside SOUTH ASIA in
places like Baghdad.
The expansion of the Sufi brotherhood was crusial aspect of the
islamization of the South Asia, since the Sufism was largely
coextensive with the islam until ninteenth century. This expansion
always had MILLITARY ASPECT. The south Asian landscape is studded with
the shrines of the warriors SUFIS who were revered as the religious
soldiers ( ghazi) and martyrs ( shahid). Sufi saints were the leaders
of the Millitary bands, made up of there spiritual disciples. There
were constantly engaged in millitary combat with non-muslims,but they
also fought among themselves in the frontier areas of the Islamic
millitary and political expansion. Richard Eaton observes that the
warrior sufis disappeared from the stage when the muslm state was
firmly established. We have evidences from the eighteenth century North
India that the millitary bands of fakirs continued to exist, collecting
tribute by force, until they were wiped out by the Britisher in the
begining of the ninteent century. There is a little reasons to support
the Eatons argument that the " warrior sufis appeared only briefly in
the subcontinents islamic frontier, being the product of unique
historical circumstances. The disappearence of the Sufi Warriors may be
credited partly to the assimilative character of the Hindu
Civillizatioin, which has usually succeeded in modifying if not fully
absorbing many foreign elements that have been introduced in the
subcontinent and partly to establishment of mid 14th century
Indo-Muslim stable states.
Muslim state formation and SUFI expansion can be seen as
dialectically connected. Often it was SUFIS who penetrated in the
"tribal areas" and established the centers of healing and spiritual
powers, long befor the muslim states were established. Sufi fakirs were
wild men who controlled the power of wilderness, of the forest. These
sufis converted large group of people of form of ISLAM. Especially in
Punjab and East Bengal, the sufi centres were eminently successful.
When the armies were able to incorportate these areas into a realm
under the muslim King, the new rulers inevitably sought assocaition
wiht the preestablihsed sufi centres to obtain legitmacy and the
crucial support.
[[[. extracted from "RELIGIOUS NATIONALISM-hindus and muslim in India"
by
Peter Van der Veer,
Published by UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORINA PRESS, Berkeley-94720
isbn 0-520-08220-6
Author is Professor of Comparative Religioin at the University of
Amsterdam...]]
My personnel comments:
1. Sufis were agents of islamic imperialism. They tried to convert as
many people as possible by there might and resorced. When they gained
some strong hold, they would usually handover there area of influence
to barbaric islamc rulers.
2. Sufis fought among themselves also , this shows that they SUFIS were
were interested in establishing there strong hold. If only peace and
spirituality were there objective, that could have been achieved
without any bloodesheed.
3. The methodology adopted by SUFIS is pretty close to the christian
missionary who show there human/spiritual face to the people and at the
same time train NUNS to use martial arts.
Regards,
Babu Ramabadran
p.s. while you go thorough the original post of Soumitra, please
observe how beautifully he has tried to masquerade the truth about the
SUFI SAINTS.
Please beware of the perpauater of FALSEHOOD.
=======origanal post of Soumitra Mitra==========
In <4r93kj$a...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
BABU RAMABADRAN
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4rcrf9$15...@stallion.jsums.edu> rva...@stallion.jsums.edu (Rajiv
I think this should have been posted under right thread.
babu
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4rcrrh$10...@stallion.jsums.edu> rva...@stallion.jsums.edu (Rajiv
BABU RAMABADRAN
Should have been under right thread
Rajiv Varma
A J K E R K A G O J
(a national daily)
------------------------------------------
Dhaka, Bangladesh Wednesday, September 11, 1991
"INCIDENT OF KOTALIPARA ECLIPSES MEDIEVAL BARBARISM"
said Sheikh Hasina.
There was a 12-hour long rampage by Muslim mobs of three minority
Hindu villages in Kotalipara. As was reported on several newspapers, on
August 23, an armed gang of 500 Muslim looters under the leadership of Mr
Rob Khan, the ex-chairman of Mostafapur, Mr. Attaur Rahman Bayati. Mr.
Mostafa Howladar, Mr. Salam Kazi among others from the villages of
Mostafapur, Ganipur, Kamalapur, Bajitpur, Khagchara, Uttar Nayarbari
arrived in Kotalipara, and rampaged Mushuiya, Pirerbari, and Dakshin
Nayarhat-three villages inhabited predominantly by the minority Hindus. In
Madaripur, the president of the Awami League and the leader of the
opposition in the parliament, Sheikh Hasina said, "The incident of a
twelve-hour- long looting rampage that occurred in the three predominantly
Hindu villages under Kotalipara, 'eclipses the barbarism of the midd .
In a mass meeting at Kotalipara, Sheikh Hasina said "In 1971,
under the leadership of Bongobondhu all people, regardless of race and
religion, took part in the war of Independence...Nobody can frighten you
out of this land."
She said, "Up unitl now the Government has done nothing to redress
the misery of the victims."
In order to comfort the victims as well as boost the morale of the
minority communities, the Awami League leader said, "Kotalipara is my
constituency, I am a child of this region, I have always been beside
you...I shall always be."
The ministry of Home Affairs did nothing to stop this horrible,
heart rending incident. After visiting the affected area- Musuriya,
Pirerbari, and Dakshin Nayarhat-, at a public meeting organized by Mr.
Thakurdas Biswas yesterday, Sheikh Hasina said that she believed the
incident occurred due to the inefficiency of the government.
Sheikh Hasina demanded that the rioters and looters be punished.
(Translated from Bengali)
Translator's Note: In this dossier the words "miscreants", a group of
people", "unruly mob" all refer to the same thing; the Muslims who carried
out the pogrom. In every single case the sufferers were the minority
Hindus and the perpetrators of violence were communal Muslims, who were
not necessarily card carrying fundamentalist Muslims; often they were
neighbors with no political affiliation whatsoever.
--
regards,
Rajiv
Rajiv Varma
PRELIMINARY REPORT OF LOSSES CAUSED BY THE COMMUNAL ATTACKS ON THE
MINORITY HINDU COMMUNITY OF BANGLADESH SINCE DECEMBER 6, 1992
BARISAL CHITTAGONG DHAKA RAJSHAHI KHULNA
(region) DIVISION DIVISION DIVISION DIVISION
1. No.of Women 2,000 100 200 50 50
raped
2. No. of persons 5
killed
3. No.of persons 200 200 200 50 50
injured
4. No. of houses 13,000 9,000 3,000 500 500
destroyed
5. No of Hindu 1,500 700 600 300 400
holy places razed
and/or destroyed
6. No of commercial 500 1,000 500 300 200
establishments
looted & destroyed
7. Value of Property 50 cr. 50 cr. 10 cr. 6 cr. 6 cr.
destroyed (Crores tks)
( Tk 1 Crore = $ 300,000.00)
According to this account, 5 people were killed (later reports
recorded 12 killed), 700 injured (a later statement recorded 2,000), 2,400
women raped, 3,500 temples damaged and/or destroyed (later reports
recorded 3,600), 26,000 (according to latest reports 28,000) houses
destroyed, and commercial establishment worth TK. 122 crores (1
crore=$300,000)(later reports put the figure to 200 crores) destroyed, by
burning and looting.
----------------------------
Bangladesh Hindu Buddhist Christian Unity Council, a non-political
organization, formed in 1988 when Islam was adopeted as the state religion
by doctoring the constitution, works for the protection and advancement of
minority rights in Bangladesh.
(Translated from Bengali)
Please Note: All figures are approximate and rounded up to the lowest
10s/100s, and is compiled from a very extensive and detailed document
printed in Bengali.
--
regards,
Rajiv
Durgesh Hajela
If only at the time of Partition, all muslims had been made to leave
India, we wouldn't have these problems. And it would have been easy to
get them to leave - the population of Indian Muslims was only about 30
million, many would not have minded leaving with a little nudge, and most
important, Pakistan was willing and eager to accept them. If we had asked
ALL Hindus (there are still 1 million Hindu Sindhis left in Sindh, mostly
in Thar Parkar district, and at least 10 million Bengali Hindus in
Bangladesh) to come to India, and had a 0% muslim population, how peaceful
and happy the last 40 years, and the present would have been.
Then Hindu culture could be protected and young generations of Hindus
could at least be openly taught their religion, in school, just as
happens in Muslim couintries, with pride, and at least the true barbaric
muslim rule of India could be exposed in our history books! Bhubaneshwar,
in Orissa, was famous as the place with ten thousand temples. Today,
fewer than a hundred are left, all due to Muslim destruction. But when I
took an official Orissa Tourism tour of Bhubaneshwar, the tour guide
merely said "Due to time and tide, the number of temples has been
reduced". Time and tide!!!!! Say what?!? Are we so afraid of "hurting
muslim sentiment" that we can't even mention WHY the temples were
destroyed, and who destroyed them? It's the same with the official school
board history books, which dramatically down play the muslim barbarianism.
Amitabh Hajela
Durgesh Hajela
I can understand Muslims blindly trying to defend the indefensible actions
of their ancestors (or even current day Bangladeshi Muslims), but to have
Hindus like Bose defend them, and belittle Hinduism at the same time, is
hard to believe. I have met at least two other Bengali Hindus who have
also defended Islam, and put down Hinduism, Like Soumitra, they too claim
that our Hindu culture owes SO MUCH to Islam. Bull crap! Get a life.
For worshippers of the most powerful manifestation of God known to mankind
(Kali Ma) you guys sure are a bunch of cowardly wusses!
Amitabh Hajela
Durgesh Hajela
What's the god damn right thread? He got the point across, didn't he?
Geeeeeeeez!!!!!!
Amitabh Hajela
Mariam Ispahani
Amitabh - What utter RUBBISH!!! It is ideas and thinking like this result
in ETHNIC and RELIGIOUS tension in South Asia!!! Why are you crying out...
"Oh, why didn't we get rid of the Muslims, oh, why didn't we take all the
Hindus back?" You should be saying... let's do what we can with what we
have right now and try to respect each other and live in harmony!
Mariam...(*_*)
http://www.skypoint.com/~mariam
N. Tiwari
Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >: The face of Islam which humanized India and Hinduism
: >
: >Soumitra:
: >
: >I will give a detailed response to this post in a couple
: >of days. But could you explain one major fact. How is
: >it that the percentage of Hindus in B'desh has fallen
: >from 40% to a measly 10%. Does your syncretism explain
: >it. Also, could you tell me as to why Chakmas are running
: >away from B'desh.
: >
: >If you cannot explain that, then all your theory is a false
: >hood. Or else, please enlighten.
: >
: >--
: I always thought that You are at least a little bit intelligent in
: reading through the text, I am sorry I was wrong. In my article I
: clearly mentioned that the 20 years of militarism and Saudisation has
: messed up the Bangladesh situation, I always maintain that the people
: and sub-altern of Bangladesh had been fighting and are still fighting
: against any such Saudiisation of their country. The women of BD has
: risen more than any part of the sub-continent. The point is that of an
: ideology and view-point .
1. It is indeed graceful of you to entertain the notion that
I might have had a bit of intelligence. It is indeed graceful
to recieve such a remark, from an enlightened, Bengali, universalist,
esp. if the honor is being bestowed upon a lowly Bhaiyya.
2. Yet, despite all this universalism, and sheer intellect, I do
still understand your answer to the fact that 40% Hindu population
in B'desh has gradually fallen to 10%. Despite the fact that it
is in the blood of Bengali manush to resist fundamentalism, and
go in for a full blown syncretic culture. I would rather have
my 40% Hindus, than this sort of culture, which reduces Hindus
by such significant amounts.
Soumitra da, mujhe samajhaiyey.
Rajiv Varma
In article <4re0j8$l...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Durgesh Hajela <d.ha...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
Mr. Hajela, this is defeatist attitude you are taking.
Why in the world you want to let go of the parts of India which have been
cradle of Hindu civilization since the time immemorial. If you advocate
ideas like "transfer of population" you have accepted the Two Nation
Theory (by land) and played right into the hands of the aggressors.
The only solution to the festering Hindu-Muslim problem can be
reunification, .... nothing else.
>
>If only at the time of Partition, all muslims had been made to leave
>India, we wouldn't have these problems. And it would have been easy to
>
And as if the problem is with the human beings (who happen to be muslims).
Please get this straight, the problem is with Islam, not the muslims. They
are our long-lost brothers. We have common ancestors. Why separate the
brothers.
Other than that, transfer of population would have been a logistical
nightmare.
>
>get them to leave - the population of Indian Muslims was only about 30
>million, many would not have minded leaving with a little nudge, and most
>
In your scenerio .... What if the residual muslim population in the
residual India would have increased in whatever no. of years. Thus as per
your solution we would have again given them some land away, and affected
yet another "transfer of population ???"
Just look at the fecundity rates of out "long-lost brothers" and a ghastly
scenario would confront you.
>
>important, Pakistan was willing and eager to accept them. If we had asked
>ALL Hindus (there are still 1 million Hindu Sindhis left in Sindh, mostly
>in Thar Parkar district, and at least 10 million Bengali Hindus in
>
That is happening by default anyway. What is the point?
>
>Bangladesh) to come to India, and had a 0% muslim population, how peaceful
>and happy the last 40 years, and the present would have been.
>
A nightmare much more hellish, IMHO.
>
>Then Hindu culture could be protected and young generations of Hindus
>could at least be openly taught their religion, in school, just as
>
U gotta be kiddin'
>
>happens in Muslim couintries, with pride, and at least the true barbaric
>muslim rule of India could be exposed in our history books! Bhubaneshwar,
>
And pray tell ... why shouldn't that be done now, when we have 15% musl.
pop. Why shouldn't the truth be told in history books, regardless of the
make-up of the population. The Emblem of the Union is "Satyameva Jayate".
Right?
Why should the 85% of the population be s**t scared of the rest of 15%.
And in the first place why should the 15% population object to Satyameva
Jayate?
>
>in Orissa, was famous as the place with ten thousand temples. Today,
>fewer than a hundred are left, all due to Muslim destruction. But when I
>took an official Orissa Tourism tour of Bhubaneshwar, the tour guide
>merely said "Due to time and tide, the number of temples has been
>reduced". Time and tide!!!!! Say what?!? Are we so afraid of "hurting
>muslim sentiment" that we can't even mention WHY the temples were
>destroyed, and who destroyed them? It's the same with the official school
>board history books, which dramatically down play the muslim barbarianism.
>
Ha! Ha! ..... just take a look at RJB case and you will see the sheepish
mentality of the Hindus.
>
>Amitabh Hajela
>
--
regards,
Rajiv
Rajiv Varma
In article <31DA8D...@skypoint.com>,
Mariam Ispahani <mar...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>
>Amitabh - What utter RUBBISH!!! It is ideas and thinking like this result
>in ETHNIC and RELIGIOUS tension in South Asia!!! Why are you crying out...
>"Oh, why didn't we get rid of the Muslims, oh, why didn't we take all the
>Hindus back?" You should be saying... let's do what we can with what we
>have right now and try to respect each other and live in harmony!
>
Very noble thoughts Marium. You should be lauded for these thoughts. But
Marium, .... Gandhiji, the greatest man to walk the face of this earth
after Buddha, tried this experiment. .... He failed miserably.
What makes you think you or anyone else will succeed now?
Do you profess to be better than Gandhiji? Marium?
>
>Mariam...(*_*)
>http://www.skypoint.com/~mariam
>
--
regards,
Rajiv
Durgesh Hajela
Mariam:
First of all, let me compliment you on an excellent homepage.
Now, getting to the matter at hand, I am really sorry that nice people
like you, and in fact many of the Muslim nettors on both SCI and SCP feel
hurt by my opinions. If all Muslims, or even most, had your attitude, I'd
shut up. I always feel bad when I post something considered
"anti-muslim", precisely because I know there are a lot of decent ones out
there, who do believe in living in peace with others, tolerance, etc.
BUT, unfortunately, they are not representative of the real face of
Muslims today; to me, the real face of Muslims is represented by the
lunatic Arabs, Afghanistanis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sudanese, and last
but not least, Indian Muslims. Note that I said "lunatic", so I'm not
including EVERYONE in the above categories. But it is the majority.
The fact is that (regardless of what Quran may say) most muslims have zero
tolerance for others. When they become the majority in any country, they
turn it into hell on earth for the minorities (Bangladesh, Egypt,
Pakistan, Sudan, etc). What's more, mullahs (most of whom are the most
violent, hate-filled, aggressive, power-hungry, unspiritual people on
Earth) completely rule over the minds and hearts of the South Asian muslim
population. The typical muslim in India, Pakistan, etc. is poor,
uneducated, easily led into orgies of violence, and a religious fanatic
with no real idea of spirituality or peace. What's more, their own
knowledge of Islam is often times so weak, they NEVER think or interpret
for themselves, so they'll implicitly and explicitly trust the mullah, who
usually is more of a buffoon than they are. Sad to say, people like you
and other decent, tolerant muslims represent a minority, a tiny,
uninfluential, timid (when it comes to dealing with your own fanatics)
minority.
Also, as a Hindu, reading or hearing about the devastation my culture
faced at Muslim hands makes me even more determined that Muslims, by and
large, are barbarians. Knowing that their attitude hasn't changed doesn't
help either. I know that if the typical Desi muslim could, he'd love to
destroy temples, pillage, rape, and loot, just like the bloody invaders.
They know that in India, at least, they can't, so they cry out about
secularism, democracy, human rights, and all kinds of other concepts
which would be out the window if they were in power.
Lastly, some of the most insane, trigger and bomb happy muslims happen to
be educated professionals, living and working in the US. Really shocking!
Amitabh Hajela
Rishi Bhattacharjee
Mariam:
Well said. Enough garbage written already. Let us do the best we can with
what we have. What happened 40 years back is done. Let us not bicker about
it any more. That is a job for the politicians to fulfill. They get us into
all this and have fun while innocent people are hurt.
Rishi
Rishi Bhattacharjee
Isn't this discussion a little out of the point Rajiv? All she said is to
curtail ethnic tension because it only makes our region weaker. Hindus and
muslims will always be there. U cannot deny it, no point either. But, let us
(so called educated intelectuals) not get so excited about these issues that
we lose our ability for rational justification. Gandhiji is gandhiji ---
Marium is herself. Why bring these issues up? Her logic is good and maybe we
can look a little deeper into it; maybe some good will come out. All she
tried to say (my understanding) is in International media and public image,
our sub-continent is becoming a big mess of pseudopolitical and communal
tension. This is not good and should be looked into.
Rishi-maharaj
tanvir s chowdhury
In article <4rcs2h$m...@stallion.jsums.edu>,
Mr. Rajiv Verma,
You seem to have misunderstood Soumitra's posting. The contribution of
Islamic teachings enriched Hinduism. The overall teaching of Quran is of
tolerance and humanism, just as the Hindu Philosophy teaches us. It is
the ones who take literal meanings to scriptures who give religion a bad
name.
And one more thing, don't belive everything you read. You should travel
to W Bengal and Bangladesh before makeing up your mind about Bangladeshis.
Peace.
Nachiketa Tiwari
Soumitra babu and his bhadra cohorts have been having sleepless
nights to prove that Islam's entry in general has been beneficial
to India, and Bengal in particular. So, Soumitra babu has written
a long drone, with the aim of enlightening all of us. My present
article is a response to his. It goes on to show that Islam,
atleast in the Indian context, was iconoclastic, and a symbol
to terror, killing and plunder to the average Indian in general.
This pattern of terror was also reflected in the behavior of the
nawabs of Bengal, and all the preceeding rulers. So, read on.
Whatever I am writing, is taken from Jadunath Sarkar's book:
"History of Bengal". Needless to say, Sarkar substantiates
whatever he has claimed, by ample references. All the
refs. are from Sarkar, except the first one.
The Muslim conquest of Bengal begins in 13th century in a formal
sense. However, it began actually before that, almost at the
same time when Gaznavi was repeatedly plundering India. A Puran,
written by the Buddhists of Bengal in that period, give some
insight into the nature of these attacks. They, sadly enough
, like Soumtira Babu, were actually foolishly welcoming these
attack. They go on to write in the Purana something like:
Brahma became Mohd. Vishnu became Allah. Shiva became Gazni.
All the devatas, became the invaders. This army of Gods
entered and started destroying Hindu temples. Broke away
the toran dwaras. ... The Gods themselves are breaking
their own places of worship. There is a lot of confusion.
These Buddhists, foolishly enough little realized that the
very folks they were celeberating will bring nemesis to
themselves. One such example was of Md. Bakhtiyar, who
after having looted the plains of N. India, ventured to caputre
the fortress of Bihar (a place in those times, situated in
modern Bihar). The plunderers after capturing the place,
put sword to all its inhabitants, most of whom were shaven
headed monks (Buddhists). This was in 1199 AD. The plunderers
continued there hate campaign, which is also echoed by several
Buddhist monks. This was the most important reason for
the vanishing of an already decadent Buddhism prevalent in
India. Islam was now at the door of Bengal, and Bengali
kings were sleeping.
Bakhtiyar then moved eastwards, captured Nadia and Gaur. Sarkar
writes: "He followed the usual practice of pulling down idol
temples, and building mosques on their ruins, .. and evincing
his zeal for religion by converting the infidels."
Bakhtiyar was followed by the Khiljis. The Khiljis, raised their
level of intolerance for native traditions and customs even
further. Religious frenzy was had to 'be stirred anew by tazkirs
exhorting people to "undertake a jihad and exert themselves for
the preservation of dignity of Islam, and the Sultan's throne"',
The control on Bengal, by this time, by the Muslims was complete
barring a few irritants. Following the Khiljis, came the Mamluks.
Most noticeable being Iltutmish. All these struggles had an important
religious element to themselves. For instance, we see explicit
sentiments like "joining the holy war" (by historian Minhaj-i-Shiraj)
and also exhortations by Sultan Alauddin Khan to wage a war "for
exterminating the infidels of Jajnagar". The struggles for the
rule of Banga (Bengal) were often followed by mass killings of
Hindus as an aftermath to the victorious Muslims. The victory
of the Islamic hordes, could not convert the masses to Islam
beyond a point. In this process, the efforts of missionaries
(sufis, pirs etc) were noteworthy too. Sarkar gives an interesting
account as to how the entire nexus worked. He writes:
"These warrior saints of Medieval Bengal were the Knights-Templars
of Islam with a cleaner record of morality, and also of loyalty
to the temporal power than those of the Corss in Medieval Europe.
..It must be .. admitted that these saints surrounded by a horde
of less scrupulous followers used to enter the teritory of
Hindu rajahs, as "squatters" on some pretext.. Theny they
would bring down the army of Muslim state upon these infidel
kings to punish them for the rights of Musalmans." Sarkars
suspicions about the sufi saints is not unique. In Rajasthan
too, sufis, pirs, auliyas have had a record as serving as
subversive agents of Islamic invaders. As to how the proces
of proselytization was widened in scope, Sarkar writes:
"By destroying the temples and monasteries, the Muslim warriors
of earlier times had only appropriated their gold and silver;
but the sword could not silence history, nor carry off their
immortal spiritual treasure wherein lay Hindu idolatory and
Hindu nationalism. The 'saints' completed the process of
conquest, moral and spiritual, by establishing dargahs, and
khanqahs, deliberately on the sites of these ruined places of
Hindu and Buddhist worship. This served a double purpose
of preventing the revival of these places of heathen sanctity,
and later on, of installing themselves as guardian deities
with tales of pious fraud invented by popular imagination".
This subversive process still continues. There are scores
of places, where some great Islamic person is supposed to
have died, and more than often, this place is very close
or actually over some Hindu site.
It is interesting to see that this is what, Soumitra and his
friends celeberate as 'syncretism'. Anyway, the Tughlaks
and Khilji's gave way to Shah's in Bengal, the first being
Ilyas Shah. This Bengal Sultan is credited with the invasion
of Nepal, where he was victorious, and consequently, destroyed
the holy Swayambhunath Stupa and the sacred standard of
SakyaMuni. Both these were Buddhist sites. Later, he also
ventured to move down south in Orissa, with a view to loot
the booty available in the rich temples of Bhuvaneshwar,
Cuttack, Puri and Konark. Ilyas was succeeded by Sikandar,
who has this distinction of raising wonderful mosques in Adina.
One of the surviving structures is a mosque, which has been
compared to the Great One is Damascus. It is supported by
400 pillars, and is ornated by several beautiful patterns.
The noteworthy thing about this mosque is that the structure
has numerous statues of Hindu and Buddhist Gods and Goddeses
which could be there only if
and a whole lot of building material was used by breaking
Hindu and Buddhist shrines. Sarkar quotes Percy Brown:
"It is not improbable that the finest monuments in Lakhnawati
were demolished in order to produce this one Muhammadan
mosque."
Similar trends continued till 1493 with the rise
of Hussain Shahi dynasty. Please remember, that so far
roughly 300 yrs have elapsed, and there the behavior of plunderers
with regards to the Hindu population has been pretty
much the same. That of intolerance, bigotry, and hatred.
However, with the rise of Hussain Shah, there was a
deviation from the previous path. This Shah has been
widely regarded as tolerant of Hindu faiths, and has
been compared with Akbar. However, the record of Hussain
Shah is also not perfect. The biographies of Chaitanya
refer to his invasion of Orisaa, where he is accused
of breaking several temples. Nevertheless, Hussain's
behavior was markedly different from his predecessors.
Whenever, Soumitra speaks of Islam's tolerant role in
the affairs of Hindus, he alludes to Hussain and his
succesors Nusrat and Firuz. Their entire rule was
for a period of 40 yrs. It is this period, which is
still not perfect, and which has been the focus of Indian
left to demonstrate the generosity and greatness of
Islamic rulers of Bengal. The preceeding 300 yrs of
history are conveniently forgotten in the process.
The Shahs were
later followed by Afghans (Suri etc.) and then Mughals,
and their temper towards Hindus was pretty much in
tune with the rulers in Delhi. Needless to say, it
was far from satisfactory. Further, it is not that
under the rule of Akbar, everything was OK. For
instance, you would have one guy in a Mansab, who
would not agree with Akbar with his religious policy,
and would go out to carry on his own bigoted agenda.
The ruler at Delhi would not care, since religious
policy was not something central to his rule.
Examples of such deviancy can be seen in some
places of Rajasthan, where a guy had to convert a
temple to mosque, since he could not find another
place to pray. One such mosque exists in front of
the Amber fort. Things like this, in all likelihood
were also not unknown in Bengal, even in the best
of the times of Hussain and his successors.
ANother example of intolerance of Muslims in Bengal
is seen during Shah Jahan's times. Here, during the
fight at Hubli, the Europeans, and the Mughals faught
a bitter battle. Killing soldiers is one thing. But
this was was an exercise in sheer fanaticism and mass
murders. Abdul Hamid Lahori, quotes the official despatch
of the Mughals: "From the beginning to the end of the
campaign, a total of 10000 of enemy, men and women, old
and young, were slain, blown up by gunpowder, drowned in
water, or burnt in fire, the imperial army lost nearly
one thousand dead." This is not a testimony to prove
the innocence of the Europeans. Rather, it shows quite
explicitly the nature of the mentality of the Mughal
rule in Bengal. Another way of expressing one's contempt
for the native rulers was reflected in Islamic attitudes
towards women. As a followup to the pact between the Mughal
agent Mir Jumla and Ahoms (Assamese), the Ahoms were supposed
to send the daughter of Ahom leader to the imperial harem.
Examples as these, have always been celeberated as show
pieces of Hindu-Muslim amity. But the common Indian has
always known the meaning of sending one's daughter in the
"other" camp. Aurangzeb's rule over Bengal was thru his
minions: Shaista Khan, and Mushid Quli Khan. Though both
of them were basically bigots, the former lived a life of
pomp, gaiety and splendour. The latter, Quli Khan, very
much like his master, was a man supposedly of simple tastes,
ruthless authority, and zeal which equalled his master,
Aurangzeb, the Alamgir. Salimullah, his biographer writes:
"Since Shaista Khan, there had not appeared in any part
of Hindustan an amir, who could be compared for zeal in
his propagation of the faith."
Following Murshid Quli Khan, we see the rise of Shujauddin
and later Alivardi Khan. The latter did a lot for the deve
lopment of Persian culture in Bengal. There is a long list
of names of people who were well versed in Persian culture
and education, and who were supported by Alivardi. However, we
do not see much support being extended to native cultures
and lifestyle. If after atleast 400 yrs of rule in India,
these rulers were still emotionally attached to the culture
of Persia and Arabia, for reasons none other than Islam,
one can only conclude that the Muslim royalty in Bengal
had still not integerated with the local cultures and
traditions. With a view to counter this argument, quite
a number of times, it is said that these rulers did employ
a large number of Hindus in their administration. But,
the proponents of this line of argument conveniently forget
that without doing this, the small number of foreigners could
not not have ruled India for that long. Also, despite the
hiring of Hindus in administration, the general opinion
amongs the masses was still that they were ruled by the
foreigners. This yearning is echoed in the writing of
Colonel Scott, the chief engineer of Company. He writes:
"the (Hindu) rajahs and the inhabitants were disaffected
to the Moor (Muslim) govt. and secretly wished for a change
and oppurtunity of throwing off their yoke."
The rule of Alivardy was followed by a period of confusion
due to the raids of Marathas, and Afghans. This was followed
by the rise of the celeberated Siraj-ud-Daulah. This nawab,
often protrayed as a hero and fighter for Indian
independence, was class one bigot and pervert. The chief of
French factory at Qasibbazar writes about the nawab:
"The character of Siraj was reputed to be one of the worst
ever known. In fact he had distinguished himself not only
by all sorts of debaucheries, but by a revolting cruelty.
The Hindu women are accustomed to bathe on the bank of
Ganges. Siraj, who was informed by his spies which of them
were beautiful, sent his satellites in little boat to carry
them off. He was often seen, in the season when the river
overflows, causing the ferry boats to be upset or sunk,
in order to have the cruel pleasure of seeing the confusion
of a hundred people at a time, men, women, and children,
of whome many, not being able to swim, were sure to perish."
-----------------------
WIth the fall of Siraj, the rule of Muslims in Bengal came
to an end. With his fall, we have spanned a total of 450 or
so odd years of Muslim rule. Of all these years, we have
only 40 or so years, where Muslim rule patronized the Hindu
culture and traditions. All the remaining years, are years
of misery, torture, rape, killings, etc. as far as Hindus
were concerned. There is no doubt, that Hindus were also
collaboraters in these years, and they held responsible
positions in administration. But to argue, that this is
a proof to show the openness of the Muslim administration,
is a much more than a long shot.
One last note. Despite of all this, we still see that social
mores in Bengal and other places, are mixtures of Hindu and
Muslim customs. Quite often, this has been shown as proof
positive for the adaptive nature of Islam, within the Indian
context. There are strong reasons to suspect such a thesis.
One being that such mixtures have occured, since people despite
all the religious injunctions, are still people. They have
had not enough time to become pure, and truly Islamic. Where
ever a sufficient amount of time has elapsed, local mores
and customs have given in to Islamic rules and dictums. This
process of refinement, (from an Islamic perspective) has been
stressed upon by maulivis and ulemas. We have seen that after
600 yrs of living side by side, the native Bengali Muslim was
eventually separated from his Hindu brother, by this process of
reform. And the process of further purification, and separatism
still continues in Bengal, in India and in places like Malaysia,
Indonesia, and even Brunei. It is this process, which is driven
by Islamic ideology, and Koranic injunctions, which does not
permit synthesis to occur in a permanent sense.
Nachiketa
BABU RAMABADRAN
Dear Soumitra:
SUB: Donot divide hindus into bengali and non-bengali
=========================================================
By this time all the netters who were reading our posts must have
seen the ugly face of islamic SUFI SAINTS. The article was posted in
clear and very precise manner.
I want you to understand that your knowledge of the history is bad.
Well , if you do not history properly, that is not something to worry
about, however I will criticize your arrogance to not to accept the
truth. By denying truth you are doing great harm to the india.
I am not here to change your views about the islam. I wanted to
emphasize that all the hindus are brother and sister. It was the islam,
who partitioned India. But you tried to create a rift between the
bengali hindus and non-bengali hindus by arguing that the bengali
muslims and hindus live peacefully and if any problem is between the
begnali hindus and muslims, it is due to presence of non-bengali hindus
in bengal.
The intolerance with other religions is inherent in the ISLAM
and the aim of islam is to conver all the non-muslims to islam. Be they
despotic rulers or wolves in hide of SUFI SAINTS, all came to india to
make india DAR-UL-ISLAM. By this time you have read enough materials on
Qurans and also about the SUFI SAINTS.
Agian I will curse the people who wrote indian history and tactfully
covered the barbarian face of SUFI-SAINTS. My post makes it very clear
that the SUFI-SAINTS were as harmful as the MUSLIM Soldiers to
hinduism.
I know that you will have lot of difficulty in digesting the truth ,
which had been kept hidden to you for long, but some wise man has said
" better late than never".
Also, I will appeal all the pseudo-seculars to be open and
impartial in there analysis of ISLAMC HAVOC on india/hindoos.
Pseudo-secualrs, I am not appealing you for your support to me. All I
wnat is that , pleae be fair to your thinking, as you all are educated
to be neutral, ojective, ratioinal and above your ego, when dealing
with truth.
Yes, I have noticed that most of the pseudo-seculars have been
trained to argue but our schools did not teach them to overcome there
ego. Except for few netters, I have found that the most of
pseudo-seculars are not honest. There arrogance ( of there secularist
wisdom ) has overwhelmed there honesty. I will appeal them to be
honest.
Again I would reiterate that being ignorant is not shame , but not
being honest is the biggest sin( morally, ethically, religiously etc).
HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY . Isnt It ?????????????????????//
with best wishes.
babu ramabadran
====my previous post====for those who missed the original=====
====forward to your friends to remove ignorance about the SUFIS
SAINTS==
In <4rct80$j...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> bab...@ix.netcom.com(BABU
RAMABADRAN) writes:
>
>
> Please beware of the perpetrator of FALSEHOOD.
N. Tiwari
Rishi Bhattacharjee (ris...@postoffice.ptd.net) wrote:
: Isn't this discussion a little out of the point Rajiv? All she said is to
: Rishi-maharaj
Rishi ji:
Thanks for that nice response. All your observations are
accurate. All observations of Marium and Rajiv are right
too. Rajiv is right when he says that all the past efforts
of a peaceful co-existence have failed. You are right in
saying that existence of Muslims cannot be denied. Marium
is right in saying that the entire situation is in a mess
in the entire subcontinent. However, Rajiv's approach was
to identify the causes behind this. His idea is that the
present mess is partly and significantly a consequence of
pandering to Islamic fundamentalism, in the name of secularism.
That is all the purpose of his posts. I am sure that you
will not deny it.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
=====================================================
750 Tall Oaks Drive 118 Patton Hall
V.Tripathi
N. Tiwari wrote:
The hindus might indeed have been treated badly in Bangladesh
as a minority. That doesn't mean we should take a cue from such actions
and start behaving similarly towards our minorities.
Vikram
> 2. Yet, despite all this universalism, and sheer intellect, I do
> still understand your answer to the fact that 40% Hindu population
> in B'desh has gradually fallen to 10%. Despite the fact that it
> is in the blood of Bengali manush to resist fundamentalism, and
> go in for a full blown syncretic culture. I would rather have
> my 40% Hindus, than this sort of culture, which reduces Hindus
> by such significant amounts.
>
> Soumitra da, mujhe samajhaiyey.
>
Supratik Das
On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Mariam Ispahani wrote:
> Durgesh Hajela wrote:
> > If only at the time of Partition, all muslims had been made to leave
> > India, we wouldn't have these problems. And it would have been easy to
[stuff deleted]
> > Amitabh Hajela
> Amitabh - What utter RUBBISH!!! It is ideas and thinking like this result
> in ETHNIC and RELIGIOUS tension in South Asia!!! Why are you crying out...
> "Oh, why didn't we get rid of the Muslims, oh, why didn't we take all the
> Hindus back?" You should be saying... let's do what we can with what we
> have right now and try to respect each other and live in harmony!
Well Mariam ideas and thinking like these are reprehensible, not only
impractical but then again when Muslims cleared away almost the entire
Hindu population of Pakistan and the majority of Hindus from Bangladesh
there weren't many Muslims like you to stop it. Perhaps most of them
thought it to be a good idea, otherwise they wouldn't have supported the
creation of an exclusive Islamic state, i.e. Pakistan. As they say
'charity begins at home'.
> Mariam...(*_*)
Supratik
AXHasan
nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari) wrote:
>Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: The face of Islam which humanized India and Hinduism
>
>Soumitra:
>
>I will give a detailed response to this post in a couple
>of days. But could you explain one major fact. How is
>it that the percentage of Hindus in B'desh has fallen
>from 40% to a measly 10%. Does your syncretism explain
>it. Also, could you tell me as to why Chakmas are running
>away from B'desh.
>
>If you cannot explain that, then all your theory is a false
>hood. Or else, please enlighten.
>
>--
>
Mr. Tiwari:
Can you please cite the sources where you got your 40%
number, and what years you are talking about? If we are
talking last 25 years, I can tell you that 40% is nowhere
near the reality. If we are talking about 100 years, even
then the 40% number is little more than actual figure if you
consider East Bengal.
I think you tried to make a point, which is an important
one. But citing incorrect numbers would only make it weaker,
and would tend to make people more indifferent to it,.
-axhasan
'posting not related to official business'
Soumitra Bose
|Let me give you another weapon in your hand against me . Quote Prof
Benoy Sirkar in your favour , he was much more Hindu-fanatic than
anyone , he also allegedly had facts -nevr proven though-. This is tha
man who extolled Hitler as to be the future saviour of our country. The
more you would quote from Jadunath Sircar,Benoy Sircar , the better
would it be for us to see you through, very many bengalis have read
his"works" and we know how much respect he holds now in Bengal....,Well
why not Dayanand Saraswati or Swami Shradhananda's version of Bengal
history , well you can quote them too, the architect of first communal
riot in Calcutta , they might not have been bengali speaking but worked
in Bengal too? Go ahead !!!
Durgesh Hajela
Yeah, but did it happen like that (the way Nachiketa wrote) or not?
Address the issue. Is he right or wrong? If so, how?
Amitabh Hajela
Mahmud Husain
nch...@unlgrad1.unl.edu (nisankarao chandrasekhar) wrote:
>
>Could you please explain who partitioned Bengal. It was a British
>Viceroy. How could an area that resisted invaders be partitioned
>by an Invader?
I do not see how a history of resistance would prevent the partition of a
conquered nation;it was partitioned precisely because the region had a
history of defiance.Organized opposition to British rule in Bengal was
consistent from its inception and revolutionary movement in Bengal
exacted a heavy price,both in terms of British personnel and resources.
The Bengali revolutionaries were the prototypical freedom fighters whose
sacrifices were instrumental in rousing the nationalist passions of the
populace.
>Hello there! Bangladesh was created by India; the majority of the
>people who fought against the Pakis were North Indians. Yet after
>so much Indian blood was spilt, we once again seen the Bangladeshi
>sucking up to the Pakis. What a waste of the numerous Indians who
>sacrificed themselves for such a bunch of turncoats and quislings.
>The Govt. of India if it has any spine should ask soldiers posted on
>India-Bangladesh border to shoot on sight any intruders.
I am not sure if you are aware of the nine month long liberation war that
Bangladeshis fought with the Pakistan army.The Indo-Pak war didnt begin
until December 1971 and lasted only a few weeks.Though the final assault
of the Indian forces in December 1971 resulted in the surrender of the
Pakistan army,it had been considerably weakened by the bloody nine month
civil war.The statement that India created Bangladesh is precisely the
type which smacks of imperial arrogance and creates the sort of
resentment you allude to.As for Bangladeshis' attitude to Pakistanis(you
may try to avoid using derogatory epithets when referring to other
nationalities,this only diminishes the validity of your statement),I
am not sure what you base your assumptions on.If you have any specific
instances in mind which is bothering you,I would be happy to respond.As
for what the government of India should or should not do,is an issue that
should properly be adressed to its representatives.
>Firstly you should stop indulging in wishful thinking and fantasizing
>prior to making any sweeping and idiotic statements. Your article
>reflects your asininity. What on earth do you mean by such a weird
>statement as "aggressive assimilative trends"? Who are the Banglas
>going to assimilate with if they have never been invaded or
>conquered?
Perhaps you didnt get the essence of my post which was that the
sociopolitical history of Bengal is a fusion of dispartate trends and
influences;it is an example of blending of traditions that is hard to
find in other parts of the Indian subcontinent.I never said that Bengal
has not been invaded or conquered.When invaded its people put up a stiff
resistance,when conquered there was a continuous struggle for self
determination.As Bengalis we feel proud of our heritage and there dosent
seem to be any reason for you to get upset about it!
Mahmud Husain
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4reg9l$e...@ns2.ptd.net> ris...@postoffice.ptd.net (Rishi
Bhattacharjee) writes:
>
>Mariam:
>
>Well said. Enough garbage written already. Let us do the best we can
with
about
>it any more. That is a job for the politicians to fulfill. They get
us into
>all this and have fun while innocent people are hurt.
>
>Rishi
>
Forget about the past Rishi: what about the present??? Please do
something to reestablish hindus in kashmir. What do you have to comment
on the recent elections in bangladesh, where the hindus were
intimidated??? What was reason for the riots in calcutta.
Remember , the past is digged to only to prove that the methods that
the secularists are suggested has been tried many times and has been
ineffective in dealing violence against hindus.
It is not a fluke that the Hindutvaa ideology is spreading faster
inspite some of the pseudo-secularsits like you.
babu ramabadran
M Rukn Uddin
>Durgesh Hajela wrote:
>>
>
>
>Amitabh - What utter RUBBISH!!! It is ideas and thinking like this result
>in ETHNIC and RELIGIOUS tension in South Asia!!! Why are you crying out...
>"Oh, why didn't we get rid of the Muslims, oh, why didn't we take all the
>Hindus back?" You should be saying... let's do what we can with what we
>have right now and try to respect each other and live in harmony!
>
>http://www.skypoint.com/~mariam
Yes indeed the wise one speaks again. Of the 37 postings on this thread
only Mahmud Hassan was Muslim. And I take it you are Muslim.
More water must flow down Ma Ganga before past wounds are healed and
forgotten or become insignificant.
But like Ganga let your wisdom continue to flow.
--
M Rukn Uddin
Mahmud Husain
rva...@stallion.jsums.edu (Rajiv Varma) wrote:
>
>
>
>
> A J K E R K A G O J
> (a national daily)
>
> ------------------------------------------
>Dhaka, Bangladesh Wednesday, September 11, 1991
>
> "INCIDENT OF KOTALIPARA ECLIPSES MEDIEVAL BARBARISM"
> said Sheikh Hasina.
>
> There was a 12-hour long rampage by Muslim mobs of three minority
>Hindu villages in Kotalipara. As was reported on several newspapers, on
>August 23, an armed gang of 500 Muslim looters under the leadership of
>
>Translator's Note: In this dossier the words "miscreants", a group of
>people", "unruly mob" all refer to the same thing; the Muslims who carried
>out the pogrom. In every single case the sufferers were the minority
>Hindus and the perpetrators of violence were communal Muslims, who were
>not necessarily card carrying fundamentalist Muslims; often they were
>neighbors with no political affiliation whatsoever.
>
>
>
>
If only leading politicians (Shiekh Hasina:leader of the opposition
in 1991,current Prime Minister of Bangladesh) would come out equally
forcefully against minority oppression everywhere in South Asia, our
societies would have much better possibilities in combating prejudical
attitudes and attaining harmonious relations between communities.Apart
from Bangladesh,this dosent seem to be the case elsewhere in the
subcontinent.
hassan monu alam
Durgesh Hajela (d.ha...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: I can understand Muslims blindly trying to defend the indefensible actions
And we muslims who respect our Hindu friends would like to stand up and
be counted as wusses also. :)
: Amitabh Hajela
--
Hassan Alam
Mahmud Husain
>Administration (lower rank) 3-5%
>Administration (secretaries) 0%
>Customs and Excise 0%
>Income-tax officials 1.5%
>Military Officers 1.5%
>Military soldiers 0%
>Border Security 0%
>Police Officers 6%
>Police rank and file 2.5%
>Major Bank Managers 0%
>Embassy & Consulate staff 0%
>Foreign Assignments 0%
>Home Ministry 0%
>Judiciary 0%
>Industry managers 0%
>Industrial laborers 3-4%
>Recent bank loans < 1%
>
>Source: Cultural Survival Quarterly, Winter 1992
>
>
>
>Soumitra dada ..... where are you?
>
>
>--
>regards,
>Rajiv
The veracity of these numbers are questionable.I know of at least two
minority members of the High Court in Bangladesh,Justices Debesh Chandra
Bhattacharya and B.B.Roychoudhry and at least one senior bank official
who is a deputy governer of Bangladesh Bank (the central bank).In this
regard there are a few other factors which has to be taken into account-
a. The caste Hindus who were evident in large numbers in pre-partition
days and held the important positions of authority mostly migrated to
India after 1947.Nowadays upper caste Hindus constitute a small
percentage of the total Hindu population of Banngladesh,the majority
being from groups historically disadvantaged and were never represented
in any significant numbers in various organs of the government.After
liberation,these groups are increasingly becoming assertive and exacting
a fairer share of representation.
Mahmud Husain
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4reji7$17...@chnews.ch.intel.com> AXHasan
<altaf_...@ccm.hf.intel.com> writes:
>
>
>Mr. Tiwari:
>
>Can you please cite the sources where you got your 40%
>number, and what years you are talking about? If we are
>talking last 25 years, I can tell you that 40% is nowhere
>near the reality. If we are talking about 100 years, even
>then the 40% number is little more than actual figure if you
>consider East Bengal.
>
>I think you tried to make a point, which is an important
>one. But citing incorrect numbers would only make it weaker,
>and would tend to make people more indifferent to it,.
>
>-axhasan
>
>'posting not related to official business'
HASSAN MIAN SALAM:
Did you know that the HINDUS were 12% of the pakistani populations in
1947. Today there are less than 1% hindus in pakistan. What happened to
them. ???????. What happened to hindus, hindu temples, sikh gurudwaras
etc.
The way the hindus in pakistan have been reduced from 12% to less
than 1% in last 50 years, in the very same way the hindus in bangladesh
have been reduced from 40% to 12% in last 40-50 years. The hindus in
bangalades have been reduced by 4 times, but in pakistan they have been
reduced to 12 times. ????
What explanation do you have for above fact. After all killings
non-muslims is not a big deal for a devout muslim.
babu ramabadran
>
>
N. Tiwari
Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: |Let me give you another weapon in your hand against me . Quote Prof
It is not that easy. You are trapped in "us" v/s "them"
theory. Whatever I have posted from Sarkar's book, is
not his opinion. Rather, he gives refers to specific
texts/letters/articles etc. which were written in the
times, about which he comments upon. Opinion is one
thing. Facts are altogether different. But then obsession
with facts is one thing that communist/leftist folks
have never preferred. They have deliberately tried
to manufacture views. And that is what you have been
doing.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
=====================================================
750 Tall Oaks Drive 118 Patton Hall
N. Tiwari
V.Tripathi (vt...@hermes.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: N. Tiwari wrote:
: The hindus might indeed have been treated badly in Bangladesh
: as a minority. That doesn't mean we should take a cue from such actions
: and start behaving similarly towards our minorities.
: Vikram
I have never advocated that. But, that denial does not
imply that I have to go out to appease every person in
my land, since (s)he belongs to a particular community.
Further, if history is a lesson, then the role of violence
in Islamic theologies must be emphasized. With sufficient
exposure, I am sure that the Muslims themselves will
acknowledge what is already out there, and this in turn
could trigger reform from inside. I consider this exercise
as important, since there are crores of Muslims in India,
and their state of affairs is critical to the growth of
India.
Kabeer Punjabi
tanvir s chowdhury wrote:
> The overall teaching of Quran is of
> tolerance and humanism, just as the Hindu Philosophy teaches us. It is
> the ones who take literal meanings to scriptures who give religion a bad
> name.
Gentleman,
I am inclined to agree with you. This issue was discussed earlier on
another thread, too. The major obstacle is the firm grip of Mullahs on
the followers. It is Mullah who interprets what is written in Holy Qu'ran
because majority of Muslims in Indian subcontinent cannot read and
understand "classic" Arabic.
That explains why Ayatollah Khomeini led Iran to topple Shah. (Please not
I am not justifying Shah, all I am saying is about the grip of Mullahs on
Islamic society.)
Another problem is that Holy Qu'ran was written (well, to be honest,
memorized initially and written subsequently) fourteen centuries back.
Some of the Surahs were valid those days based on social - economic
situations in Arabia at that time. They may or may not be valid today, in
every place of the globe.
The concept of Arabic prayers need to be looked in thsi perspective,
There were two major languages in that region that time, Arabic and
Hebrew. Jews who were economically better off, would consider Arabic as
inferior language (compared to Hebrew). By emphasizing on Arabic prayers,
Prophet restored the dignity of Arabs. Today, the situation is different.
Islam is no longer a religion followed only by Arabs.
Followers of Islam are now understanding the need to be able to translate
Holy Qu'ran meaningfully rather than "literally" but their number is
still small and their voice cannot be easily heard. As the time passes, I
am certain, this will happen and Islam will not remain stagnant anymore.
Kabeer
Mahmud Husain
Addendum:
Due to problems in my newsreader,the last part of my post was ommited.It
was as follows:
b. The Pakistan regime practiced widespread discriminatory practices
during thier rule of Bangladesh.Most of the mid and senior level
employees now serving were hired during that period.After the liberation
of Bangladesh,many aspects of this systematic discrimination have been
done away with.Minority representation in all organs of the republic will
increase significantly in the next decades.
Having said that it is also true that vestiges of past discriminatory
practices are in evidence even now.This is especially true in hiring
people for sensitive security positions. As Soumitra pointed out,the
nature of the military fascistic regimes that ruled the country has also
to be taken into account in this regard.
Mahmud Husain
Dinesh Agrawal
Mr Soumitra Bose in his futile attempt tried to show that Islam had
humanized Hinduism and India by providing distorted and perverted
interpretaions of historical events, by misquoting various people,
and by pure concoctions. Many netters very articulately have already
exposed the faults and lies in Mr Bose's commentary. He had also
mentioned Vivekananda and how BJP and Hindutva supporters have
been misrepresenting his views vis-a-vis Islam. Hereunder, I am
confining myself only on this aspect of Mr. Bose's post. Let us
see how Swami Vivekananda had felt about Islam and what it did
to the world in general and to india in particular. I leave it
to the netters to make their own judgement to decide whether
Soumitra is spreading a deliberate lie or BJP is distorting
Swamiji's message.
Dinesh Agrawal...
*****************************************
Swami Vivekananda on Islam
Swami Vivekananda was like Rama. He never spared his words. His exhortations
to cast away fear and speak the unvarnished truth earned him titles like the
'cyclonic Hindu' the "warrior monk". His thinking on Islam makes very
perceptive reading.
Swami ji said "people who deny the efficiency of any investigation into
religion seem to me somewhat to be contradicting themselves. For instance the
Christian claims that his religion is the only true one, because it was
revealed to so and so. The Mohammedan makes the same claims for his religion;
his is the only true one because it was revealed to so and so. But the
Christian says to the Mohammedan, "Certain parts of your ethics do not seem to
be right. For instance, your books say, Mohammedan friend, that an infidel may
be converted to the religion of the Mohammed by force and if he will not accept
the Mohammedan religion he may be killed; and any Mohemmedan who kills such an
infidel will get a sure entry into heaven, whatever may have been his sins or
misdeeds". The Mohammedan will retort by saying, "It is right for me to do so
because my book enjoins it. It will be wrong on my part not to do so". The
Christian says: "But my book does not say so". The Mohammedan replies " I do
not know. I am not bound by the authority of your book; my book says, I kill
all the infidels'. How do you know which is right and which is wrong? Surely
what is written in my book is right and what your book says, 'Do not kill, is
wrong..'The books fighting among themselves cannot be the judges. Decidedly
then we have to admit that there is something higher than we have to admit that
there is something more universal than these books, something higher that all
the ethical codes that are in the world, something which can judge between the
strength of inspirations of different nations. Whether we declare it boldly
clearly or not - it is evident that here we appeal to reason (The Complete
Work of Swami Vivekananda, Vol I 368-69).
After giving a brief history of Mohammed's early life that: He grew up a
trader. At the age of 25 he became an overseer of the rich widow Khadija. In
595 AD he married Khadija. By the time he reached 40 he started spending some
time in a year in a lonly cave on Mount Hira. It was here that he experienced
a vision of the Angel Gabriel who addressed him as the Messenger of Allah or
God and not the prophet. Mohammed's mother Amminah often claimed that she was
visited by spirits and at times claimed to have visions and religious experien-
ces. This background prompted Swamiji to say: " Mohammed claimed that the Angel
Gabriel came to him in a cave one day and took him on the heavenly horse, Harak
and he visited the heavens. But with all that Mohammed spoke some wonderful
truths. If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with
superstitions. How will you explain this? That man was inspired, no doubt, but
that inspiration was as it were stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and
did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the great evil that has
been done through his fanaticism! Think of the millions massacred through his
teachings, mothers bereft of their children, children made orphans whole
countries destroyed, millions upon millions of people killed". (I. 184)
"Mohammedanism came as a message for the masses. The first massage was
equality, this great message was perfectly simple. Believe in one God, the
creator of heaven and earth. Their temples are like protestant churches, no
music, no paintings, no pictures. A pulpit in the corner. On that lies the
Koran. The people all stand in line. No priest, no parson, no bishop" (I.481).
Swamiji further said: "The Mohammedan who thinks that every ritual, every
form, image or ceremony used by a non-Mohammedan is sinful does not think so
when he comes to his own shrine, the Kaaba. Every religious Mohammedan where-
ever he prays, must imagine that he is standing before the Kaaba. When he
makes a pilgrimage there, he must kiss the black stone in the wall of the
shrine. All the kisses that have been imprinted on that stone, by millions
and millions of pilgrims will stand up as witnesses for the benefit of the
faithful on the last day of judgement. Then there is the well of Zam Zam.
Mohammedans believe that who ever draws a little water out of that well will
have sins pardoned, and he will, after the day of resurrection, have a fresh
body, and live for ever (II:39). The Mohammedans use the graves of their
sainst and martyres almost in the place of images (III:61).
Of the Muslim Paradise, Swamiji said: "They say that the heaven is a
place where there are gardens, beneath which rivers run. In the desert of
Arabia, water is very desirable, so the Mohammedan always conceive of his
heaven as containing much water. (II:316)
Following is an often quoted Swamiji's view on the synthesis of Hinduism
and Islam, the people do not go in the depth of this Utopian hope: "My
experience is that if any religion approached equality in an appreciable manner
it is Islam and Islam alone. Therefore, I am firmly persuaded that without the
help of practical Islam, theories of Vedantism, however fine and wonderful they
may be, are entirely valueless to the vast mass of mankind. We want to lead
mankind to the place where there is neither the Vedas, nor the Bible, nor the
Koran yet this has to be done by harmonising the Vedas, the Bible and the
Koran... For our own motherland a junction of the two great systems, Hinduism
and Islam-Vedanta brain and Islam body- is the only hope." Here Swamiji is
very clear that concept of equality of Islam has to be extended to the univer-
sal equality as propounded in the Vedantic thought, and the division of the
mankind into the land of believers and non-believers or Muslims, Zimmis and
Kafirs as enjoined and sanctioned in the Koran has to be done with by synthe-
sizing the basic Islamic truths with the Vedantic truth of divinity in all,
then only the fusion of Islamic body and Vedantic brain would work.
Swami Vivekananda while appreciated the best part of Islam, and exhorted
to the non-Muslims to adopt that, he was also ruthless in condemning the
barbaric, divisive and inhumane aspects and actions of Islam and its followers,
he did not mince words when he stated: "The Mohammedan religion allows Mohamme-
dans to kill all who are not of their religion. It is clearly stated in Koran,
"Kill the infidels if they do not become Mohammedans". They must be put to fire
and sword. (II.335). Think of the little sects, born within a few hundred years
out of fallible human brains, making this arrogant claim of knowledge of the
whole of God's infinite truth! Think of the arrogance of it! If it shows any-
thing, it is this how vain human beings are. And it is no wonder that such
claims have always failed, and , by the mercy of the Lord, are always destined
to fail. In this line the Mohammedans were the best off; every step forward was
made with the sward - the Koran in the one hand and the sward in the other:
"Take the Koran, or you must die; there is no alternative!". You know from
history how phenomenal was their success; for six hundred years nothing could
resist them, and then there came a time when they had to cry halt. So will it
be with other religions if they follow the same methods." (II:369-70)
"Wave after wave of barbarian conquest has rolled over this devoted land
of ours. "Allah Ho Akbar!" has rent the skies for hundreds of years, and no
Hindu knew what moment would be his last. This is the most suffering and the
most subjugated of all the historic lands in the world. Yet we will stand
practically the same race, ready to face difficulties again and again if
necessary; and not only so, of late there have been signs that we are not only
strong, but ready to go out for the sign of life in expansion." (III.369-70)
"What is called the Mohammedan invasion, conquest or colonisation of India
means only this that under the leadership of Mohammedan Turks, who were renega-
des from Buddhism, those sections of the Hindu race who continued in the faith
of their ancestors were repeatedly conquered by the other section of that very
race, who also were renegades from Buddhism of the Vedic religion and served
under the Turks, having been forcibly converted to Mohammedanism by thier
superior strength. (VII:395)
The Koran further says: The unbelievers among the people of the Book of
Ahl-i-Kitab (i.e. Jews and Christians) and the pagans shall burn for ever in
the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures (S98:6).
Swamiji said of this: "Christian people hate no religion in the world so
much as Mohammedenism. They think it is the worst form of religion that ever
existed. As soon as a man becomes a Mohammedan, the whole of Islam receives
him as a brother with open arms, without making any distinction, which no
other religion does. If one of your American Indians becomes a Mohammedan, the
Sultan of Turkey would have no objection to dine with him. If he has brains.
no position is barred to him... Islam makes its followers all equal, so that,
you see, is the peculiar excellence of Mohammedanism. In many places in the
Koran you find very sensual ideas of life. Never mind. What Mohammedanism
comes to preach to the world is this practical brotherhood of all belonging to
their faith, that is the essential part of the Mohammedan religion; and all the
other idea about heaven and of life etc. are not Mohammedanism. They are
accretions (II:371-72).
According to Islam, Allah is unknowable. He is so transendent, so exalted,
that no man can ever personally know Allah. To the Muslim the idea that Allah
is a person or a spirit is blasphemous because this would demean the exalted
one. Allah is not limited by anything. He is not even limited by his own
nature. Swamiji used to react to this belief by saying: "For the Mohammedans,it
is impossible to have this idea of God as a child; they will shrink from it
with a kind of horror. But the Christian and the Hindu can realise it easily
because they have the Baby Jesus and the Baby Krishna. (III:96)
Swamiji also reacted on the 'universal brotherhood' in Islam by saying:
Mohammedans talk of universal brotherhood, but what comes out of that in
reality? Why anybody who is not a Mohammedan will not be admitted into the
brotherhood; he will more likely have his throat cut. (II:380)
More from Swamiji on this aspect: "Now, some Mohammedans are the crudest
in this respect, and the most sectarian. Their watchword is "There is one
God, and Mohammed is His Prophet". Everything beyond that not only is bad, but
must be destroyed forthwith; at a moment's notice. every man or woman, who
does not exactly believe in that, must be killed; everything that does not
belong to this worship must be immediately broken; every book that teaches
anything else must be burnt. From the Pacific to the Atlantic, for five
hundred years, blood ran all over the world. That is Mohammedanism! Neverthe-
less, among these Mohammedans, wherever there was a philosophic man, he was
sure to protest against these cruelties. (IV:126)
Tracing a brief history of the Tartar and Turk races which were converted
from Buddhism to Islam, and then they went to conquer the Hindus, Persians,
and Arabs, Swami Vivekananda then speaks how these Tartars (now Mohammedans)
had conquered other kingdoms:"The Tartars seized and occupied the throne of
the Arabian Caliph, took possession of Jerusalem, the great Christian place
of pilgrimage, and other places, would not allow pilgrims to visit the holy
sepulchre, and killed many Christians. The heads of the Christian Chruches grew
mad with rage and roused their barbarian disciples throughout Europe who in
turn inflamed the kings and their subjects alike. Hordes of European barbarians
rushed towards Asia Minor to deliver Jerusalem from the hands of the infidels.
A good portion of them cut one another's throats, others died or disease, while
the rest were killed by the Mohammedans. However, the blood was up of the wild
barbarians, and no sooner had the Mohammedans killed them than they arrived in
fresh numbers - with that dogged obstinacy of a wild savage. They thought noth-
ing even of plundering their own men, and making meals of Mohammedans when they
found nothing better. It is well known that the English king Richard has a
liking for Mohammedans flesh. (V:529-30)
Islam accepts that Mohammed and Jesus were both prophets sent by Allah.
Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy spirit in the
womb of virgin Mary. But muslims deny and ridicule the doctrine of the virgin
birth of Jesus. For christine Jesus the christ was divine as well as human.
But allah the unique creator of the world, the Father, has no daughter and
sons. Angel Gabriel addressed Mohammed as the only "Messenger of Allah". This
is beautifully expressed by Swami ji, "Mohammed is not worshipped in the same
sense as Christ. Mohammed believes in Christ but denies he is God" (II:478).
Regarding the fact that in Muslim countries the non-Muslim religious
communities had difficulty in performing their religious duties and the
theocratic governments do not allow to build temples or churches, no wonder
Swamiji said: "It is here that Indians build temples for Mohammedans and
Christians. Nowhere else. If you go to other countries and ask Mohammedans or
people of other religions to build a temple for you, see how they will help.
They will instead try to break your temple and you too if they can (III:114).
Ramajanambhoomi Movement: For the last 500 years the struggle to regain
the birthplace of Lord Rama in Ayodhya has been going on and off, and recently
it had reached to its final phase. The Muslims and pseudsecularists have
demanded proof of Rama's birth forgetting that they are most vulnerable if a
counter question was put forth regarding similar beliefs in other religions.
Yet Hindus paraded plenty of proofs to demonstrate the fact that there was a
Rama temple at the site of disputed structure, which was destroyed at the
orders of an invader, and a mosque-like structure was built at its place using
the temple-material. But no avail, Hindus continued to endure, presevere, and
wait to prevail the wise counsels, and ultimately when all failed, the limits
were transgressed, enough was enough, a volcano type situation was created, and
as a result Dec.6th of 1992 happened! Let us see what Swamiji says related to
such situations:
"...You have withstood the shocks of centuries simply because you took great
care of it, you sacrificed everything else for it. Your forefathers underwent
everything boldly, even death itself, but preserved their religion. Temple
after temple was broken down by the foreigner conquerers, but no sooner had the
wave passed than the spire of the temple rose up again. Some of these old
temples of southern India and those like Somnath of Gujarat will teach you
volumes of wisdom, will give you a keener insight into the history of the race
than any amount of books. Mark how these temples bear the marks of a hundred
attacks and a hundred regenerations, continually destroyed and continually
springing up out of the ruins, rejuvenated and strong as ever! That is the
national mind, that is the national life-current. Follow it and it leads
to glory. Give it up and you die; death will be the only result, annihilation
the only effect, the moment you step beyond that life-current. (III:289)
Swamiji was very much pained by the cast system, untouchability and the
unspeakable social tyranny. Swamiji was concerned at the deplorable lack of
unity and corrupted social customs. Islam too has castes like the Shia, Sunni,
Ahmaddiya, Dawoodi Bohra, Sulemain, Bohra, Ismailli Khoja, Memon, Moplah, the
Sufi, the Chisti, and so on. Swamiji advised the Hindus: "How could Mohammedan-
ism have lived, had there been nothing good in its teaching? There is much
good. Mohammed was the prophet of equality, of the brotherhood of all Muslims.
(IV:133). "..Why amongst the poor of India so many are Mohammedans? It is non-
sense to say they were all converted by sword. It was to gain their liberty fro
m the zamindars and from the priest, and as a consequence you find in Bengal
there are more Mohammedans than Hindus amongst the cultivator because there
were so many zamindars there. (VIII:330)
The heroic resistance of Hindus against Islamic imperialism the growth of
many sects, the supreme sacrifices of Guru Tegh Bahadur and the Bhakti Saints
checked the Muslim proselytizing activity. Swamiji said: "Again it is in an
undoubted fact that if there had not been the advent of Kabir, Nanak and Chait-
anya in the Mohammedan period, and the establishment of the Brahmo Samaj and
the Arya Samaj in our own day, then, by this time, the Mohammedans and the
Christians would have far outnumbered the Hindus of the present day in India.
(IV:463)
Swamiji was right when he said: "This Vedantic spirit of religious
liberality has very much affected Mohammedanism. Mohammedanism in India is
quite a different thing from that in any other country. It is only when
Mohammedans come from other countries and preach to their coreligionists in
India about living with men who are not of their faith that a Mohammedan mob
is aroused and fights. (V:310-11)
Swamiji treated all children of this land, irrespective of their religion
as Hindus which is a cultural concept, he reminded: "The word Hindu, therefore,
covers not only Hindus proper, but Mohammedans, Christians, Jains and other
people who live in India." (III:118).
Finally Swami Vivekananda summarizes the Hindu way of thinking, the
Sanatan Dharma, and a mission for the mankind in the following words:
SUCH A RELIGION WHICH WILL HAVE NO PLACE FOR PERSECUTION OR INTOLERANCE IN ITS
POLITY, WHICH WILL RECOGNISE 'DIVINITY' IN EVERY MAN AND WOMAN AND WHOSE
WHOLE SCOPE, WHOSE WHOLE FORCE WILL BE CENTERED IN AIDING HUMANITY, TO REALISE
ITS OWN TRUTH - DIVINE NATURE; IS ONLY FOUND IN OUR ANCIENT WAY, NOW KNOWN AS
HINDU WAY OF THINKING. OFFER SUCH A RELIGION AND ALL NATIONS WILL FOLLOW YOU.
Dinesh Agrawal
S Bhattacharyya
Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Mariam Ispahani wrote:
>> Durgesh Hajela wrote:
>> > If only at the time of Partition, all muslims had been made to leave
>> > India, we wouldn't have these problems. And it would have been easy to
>[stuff deleted]
>> > Amitabh Hajela
>> Amitabh - What utter RUBBISH!!! It is ideas and thinking like this result
>> in ETHNIC and RELIGIOUS tension in South Asia!!! Why are you crying out...
>> "Oh, why didn't we get rid of the Muslims, oh, why didn't we take all the
>> Hindus back?" You should be saying... let's do what we can with what we
>> have right now and try to respect each other and live in harmony!
>Well Mariam ideas and thinking like these are reprehensible, not only
>impractical but then again when Muslims cleared away almost the entire
>Hindu population of Pakistan and the majority of Hindus from Bangladesh
>there weren't many Muslims like you to stop it. Perhaps most of them
>thought it to be a good idea, otherwise they wouldn't have supported the
>creation of an exclusive Islamic state, i.e. Pakistan. As they say
>'charity begins at home'.
Lets assume for a minute that Mariam is an Indian. In that
case why do you gentlemen hold her responsible for events in Pakistan
and Bangladesh ? Charity does begin at home, and if she is an Indian
then her home is in India, not Bangladesh or Pakistan.
I have often noticed Hindu zealots attempt to hold Indian
Muslims reponsible for events that have happened in other Islamic
countries, and personally speaking, I find this quite distasteful.
Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Indian Muslims, who chose to
stay in India at the time of the Partition, now feel so isolated from
the mainstream that they go out and cheer for Pakistan during
India-Pakistan cricket matches ?
Regards,
Santanu
>> Mariam...(*_*)
>Supratik
Musleh Farid
Hey idiot Rajiv Varma! A true idiot like you doesn't know how to show
respect to someone else's country. You are definitely an Indian and I
have no intention of insulting India because there are lots of decent and
respectable people in India who despise idiots like you. To those
Indians, throw these lowlifes out of your country. They pollute India as
much as they pollute the world.
Musleh
Pavel
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
:> In <4reji7$17...@chnews.ch.intel.com> AXHasan
:> <altaf_...@ccm.hf.intel.com> writes:
:> >
:> >
:> >Mr. Tiwari:
:> >
:> >Can you please cite the sources where you got your 40%
:> >number, and what years you are talking about? If we are
:> >talking last 25 years, I can tell you that 40% is nowhere
:> >near the reality. If we are talking about 100 years, even
:> >then the 40% number is little more than actual figure if you
:> >consider East Bengal.
:> >
:> >I think you tried to make a point, which is an important
:> >one. But citing incorrect numbers would only make it weaker,
:> >and would tend to make people more indifferent to it,.
:> >
:> >-axhasan
:> >
:> >'posting not related to official business'
:>
:> HASSAN MIAN SALAM:
:>
:> Did you know that the HINDUS were 12% of the pakistani populations
in
:> 1947. Today there are less than 1% hindus in pakistan. What happened
to
:> them. ???????. What happened to hindus, hindu temples, sikh
gurudwaras
:> etc.
I did not find where you answered Mr. Hasan's doubt about existance 40%
hindus at any time in Bangladesh. You just reclaimed it that there was
40% hindus 50 years ago. But i donot think this is real figure. But the
percentage of hindus are reducing. I donot think they were killed as you
claimed. They are leaving. The way you are explaining it will not help
to solve the problem in Bangladesh. It will just ignite communal
problems in india.
-Pavel
:> The way the hindus in pakistan have been reduced from 12% to less
:> >
:> >
Rajiv Varma
In article <4rh92d$l...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
>
>
>>On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Mariam Ispahani wrote:
>
>>> Durgesh Hajela wrote:
>
>>> > If only at the time of Partition, all muslims had been made to leave
>>> > India, we wouldn't have these problems. And it would have been easy to
>>[stuff deleted]
>
>>> > Amitabh Hajela
>
>>> Amitabh - What utter RUBBISH!!! It is ideas and thinking like this result
>>> in ETHNIC and RELIGIOUS tension in South Asia!!! Why are you crying out...
>>> "Oh, why didn't we get rid of the Muslims, oh, why didn't we take all the
>>> Hindus back?" You should be saying... let's do what we can with what we
>>> have right now and try to respect each other and live in harmony!
>
>
>>Well Mariam ideas and thinking like these are reprehensible, not only
>>impractical but then again when Muslims cleared away almost the entire
>>Hindu population of Pakistan and the majority of Hindus from Bangladesh
>>there weren't many Muslims like you to stop it. Perhaps most of them
>>thought it to be a good idea, otherwise they wouldn't have supported the
>>creation of an exclusive Islamic state, i.e. Pakistan. As they say
>>'charity begins at home'.
>
> Lets assume for a minute that Mariam is an Indian. In that
>
Is Marium's nationality the issue here? Sir, did you even read what is
posted on this thread. Let's say what Marium says is said by a Hindu (they
are more likely to say what she said), or even someone XYZ, the argument
still stands. The center of this is that the fault lies in the basic
theological percepts of Islam. Muslims just happen to be victims of it. Be
they muslims of Pakistan, B'Desh, India or Timbuktu for that matter.
>
>case why do you gentlemen hold her responsible for events in Pakistan
>and Bangladesh ? Charity does begin at home, and if she is an Indian
>then her home is in India, not Bangladesh or Pakistan.
>
P'stan and B'desh is the booty which Islamic aggresors got by robbing it
from India, ..... it ought to be returned to its rightful owner. Once and
for all.
I don't see where Marium's home (or yours or mine for that matter) fits
into this argument.
>
> I have often noticed Hindu zealots attempt to hold Indian
>Muslims reponsible for events that have happened in other Islamic
>countries, and personally speaking, I find this quite distasteful.
>Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Indian Muslims, who chose to
>stay in India at the time of the Partition, now feel so isolated from
>
They chose to stay in India, not because for any love for the country --
93% of these voted for Pakistan anyway.
They chose to stay in India, so that one day thru a combination of Jihad
angainst the Hindus plus their extraordinary fecundity, they can snatch
more pieces of Mother India and change it into Darul-Islam. They are the
Fifth Column for the Ummah. Does Kashmir ring a bell? Malabar,
Murshidabad-Maldah are on their way ....
What do you have to say now?
>
>the mainstream that they go out and cheer for Pakistan during
>India-Pakistan cricket matches ?
>
Yes Yes Yes ......
If you had your way, you would make every Hindu prostrate before every
Muslim, and sing "Rooth gaye Saniyaa, Manaau kaise ....."
Huh!
>
> Regards,
> Santanu
>
--
regards,
Rajiv
Kabeer Punjabi
S Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Lets assume for a minute that Mariam is an Indian. In that
> and Bangladesh ? Charity does begin at home, and if she is an Indian
> then her home is in India, not Bangladesh or Pakistan.
> Muslims reponsible for events that have happened in other Islamic
> countries, and personally speaking, I find this quite distasteful.
> Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Indian Muslims, who chose to
> stay in India at the time of the Partition, now feel so isolated from
> India-Pakistan cricket matches ?
>
> Santanu
Gentleman.
Mariam's last name is Persian. So she could be either in India or
Pakistan but cetainly not in Bangladesh.
I have nothing against the Muslims who voted 95% to create Pakistan, and
still remained in India.
Can you tell me why would these honest Indians celebrate every victory
announced on Paksitan Radio during Indo-Pakistan war?
Why these loyal Indians were more interested in Khilafat than
independence of India?
Why these loyal Indians left the lights on during Indo-Pakistan war when
rest of the country was observing blackout?
Please answer these questions before advising other communities to
folloow your advice.
Thanks.
Kabeer
BABU RAMABADRAN
>percentage of hindus are reducing. I donot think they were killed as
you
>claimed. They are leaving. The way you are explaining it will not help
>to solve the problem in Bangladesh. It will just ignite communal
>problems in india.
>
>-Pavel
Yes why are they leaving ?? because their lives is at danger.
babu
Khaled or Omar
"All religions are EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST ".!!!
Religions were meant to unite PEOPLE, but people got too obsessed with their religious
identity - and chose to divide. Religions ARE equal !!!
Pride and prejudice, ego and selfishness, greed and hatred - THESE are the ENEMIES;
not people of other religions.
Khaled.
Highgate E C
In article <4rhub1$e...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, bab...@ix.netcom.com
writes>>:> babu ramabadran
>>:> >
>>:> >
>
Baburam sounds like a low caste Hindu name to me. listen Sonny you are
better off converting to Islam otherwise in your next life you could be
born as a third rate statistician.
--
Highgate E C
Highgate E C
In article <4rhs6m$2...@stallion.jsums.edu>, Rajiv Varma
<rva...@stallion.jsums.edu> writes
>
>>the mainstream that they go out and cheer for Pakistan during
>>India-Pakistan cricket matches ?
>>
>
Yea give me Gangooooooooooly any day.
--
Highgate E C
Highgate E C
In article <31DC88...@ix.netcom.com>, Kabeer Punjabi
<Kab...@ix.netcom.com> writes
>S Bhattacharyya wrote:
>>
>> Lets assume for a minute that Mariam is an Indian.
Ispahan, Ispahani, Persia no. Her family did not come in with Nadir
Shah's hordes. No, but a lot later. Was she born in Pakistan I would say
no. So I would hazard a guess and say that she was born in Dhaka.
So Mariam sock it to 'em.
>Mariam's last name is Persian.
>Why these loyal Indians left the lights on during Indo-Pakistan war when
>rest of the country was observing blackout?
Kabeer, it was your patriotic duty to do the same.
>
>Please answer these questions before advising other communities to
>folloow your advice.
>Kabeer
"Advice is seldom welcome. Those who need it most like it least."
Highgate
--
Highgate E C
Kabeer Punjabi
Khaled Miyan,
Your discription is perfect. Now your first statement, "All religions are
EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST !!!", does not it fall under "Pride and
prejudice, ego", that are the enemies of mankind?
Just curious!
Kabeer
Kabeer Punjabi
Highgate E C wrote:
>
> "Advice is seldom welcome. Those who need it most like it least."
> Highgate
> --
> Highgate E C
Gentleman,
Do you know that there was an ad sometime back that said "For 15 dollars
buy a gadget that will make you invisible but you can see others."
Someone mailed a check. Few weeks later, he received a package.
Anxiously, he opened it to find it contained "Burkha".
So Gentleman, are you still using it?
Kabeer
S Bhattacharyya
Kabeer Punjabi <Kab...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Gentleman.
>Mariam's last name is Persian. So she could be either in India or
>Pakistan but cetainly not in Bangladesh.
>I have nothing against the Muslims who voted 95% to create Pakistan, and
>still remained in India.
>Can you tell me why would these honest Indians celebrate every victory
>announced on Paksitan Radio during Indo-Pakistan war?
They did ? You have some evidence of this I presume ? Care to
present them in this forum ?
>Why these loyal Indians were more interested in Khilafat than
>independence of India?
>Why these loyal Indians left the lights on during Indo-Pakistan war when
>rest of the country was observing blackout?
Ah! This is a tough one. Perhaps they wanted to play diwali
with their ancestral homes ?
Regards,
Santanu
>Please answer these questions before advising other communities to
>folloow your advice.
>Thanks.
>Kabeer
S Bhattacharyya
rva...@stallion.jsums.edu (Rajiv Varma) writes:
>In article <4rh92d$l...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>S Bhattacharyya <san...@glibm5.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> I have often noticed Hindu zealots attempt to hold Indian
>>Muslims reponsible for events that have happened in other Islamic
>>countries, and personally speaking, I find this quite distasteful.
>>Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Indian Muslims, who chose to
>>stay in India at the time of the Partition, now feel so isolated from
>>
>They chose to stay in India, not because for any love for the country --
>93% of these voted for Pakistan anyway.
>They chose to stay in India, so that one day thru a combination of Jihad
>angainst the Hindus plus their extraordinary fecundity, they can snatch
>more pieces of Mother India and change it into Darul-Islam. They are the
>Fifth Column for the Ummah. Does Kashmir ring a bell? Malabar,
>Murshidabad-Maldah are on their way ....
>What do you have to say now?
All I can say is that I am quite dumbfounded by the level of
paranoia on this forum.
>>
>>the mainstream that they go out and cheer for Pakistan during
>>India-Pakistan cricket matches ?
>>
>Yes Yes Yes ......
>If you had your way, you would make every Hindu prostrate before every
>Muslim, and sing "Rooth gaye Saniyaa, Manaau kaise ....."
>Huh!
So I presume it would surprise you to hear that I would vote
BJP, given the option, simply to support their anti-reservation
stance, and their desire to implement a Uniform Civil Code ?
Kabeer Punjabi
S Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Kabeer Punjabi <Kab...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> [ Text Deleted]
>
> >Can you tell me why would these honest Indians celebrate every victory
> >announced on Paksitan Radio during Indo-Pakistan war?
>
> They did ? You have some evidence of this I presume ? Care to
> present them in this forum ?
Gentleman,
I have seen it myself in Bhendi Bazar, Bombay oduring 1965 war. They not
only listened to Pak Radio but celebrated every small victory with
firecrackers.
> >Why these loyal Indians left the lights on during Indo-Pakistan war when
> >rest of the country was observing blackout?
>
> Ah! This is a tough one. Perhaps they wanted to play diwali
> with their ancestral homes ?
Or as an act of treason towards India?
>
> Regards,
> Santanu
>
Kabeer
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <31DCC4...@ix.netcom.com> Khaled or Omar <kg...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>"All religions are EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST ".!!!
>Religions were meant to unite PEOPLE, but people got too obsessed with
their religious
>identity - and chose to divide. Religions ARE equal !!!
>Pride and prejudice, ego and selfishness, greed and hatred - THESE are
the ENEMIES;
>not people of other religions.
>Khaled.
Khalid Miyan:
I feel like laughing at your comment that all the religion are equl.
The following essay will make it clear.
ALL RELIGIOINS ARE NOT EQUAL
==============================
Hindus have been taught since ages that all the religions
are same and they teach same thing. We are taught to be tolerant
to others religions and faith. Sarva Dharm Sambahv is the keyword
that we have ingrained in our minds. In spite of all this high
teachings, we see that muslims are unsatisfied with hindus. The
riots are common events of modern india. The populations of Muslims
in increasing very fast. This essays tries to look into the myths
about the Islam as a tolerant religion.
The five fundamental faiths of islam are the KALIMA, NAMAZ,
ROZA, ZAKAT(charity to poor muslims) and HAJJ. There has never
been, nor ever will be HINDU-MUSLIM tension due to any of the
five fundamental faith mentioned above. The situation is however
different with SHARIAT.
SHARIAT ( meaning the LAW) is law as seen from deriving
from KORAN, from SUNNA, and from human opinion and tradition.
SUNNA is tradition portion of muslim law claimed to be based on
the acts of Muhammad, but not attributed directly to it.
ULEMA, ( Muslim Madarasa educated religious leaders) are the
people who really control the Muslim masses through their power to
issues fatwas, preach in mosques five times a day and to run
entire religious education systems of the Muslims through
thousands of Madarasas and lakhs of Maktabs. The ULEMA insist that
ISLAM IS NOT ONLY A FAITH BUT SHARIAT TOO. This means that islam is
not only a fiath but also an law. Thus for a muslim there can be
no other law than the islam. The faith can coexist
with unislamic concepts like "sarv dharam sambhav " . The faith can
also exist with concept of secularism, human brotherhood and as
understood by Hindus or the people in west. But SHARIAT IS A
CONSTITUTION IN ITSELF. The SHARIAT IS DIVINE SO, FOR A MUSLIM, IT
TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER ALL MAN MADE CONSTITUTION. A muslim goes
against allah if he does not agrees to follow shariat.
SHARIAT includes practically every aspect of human life
including STATE AND POLITICS. SHARIAT also includes the relations
of muslims with non muslims. It is very particular about the
idolaters ( hindus and other non muslims) and unislamic rulers.
UNISLAMIC rulers are those who do not use SHARIAT for their
guidance.
Quran divides humanity into two parties: The muslims ie "the
party of the God" and the non muslim, "the party of Satan". Thus
there are two parties in the world, " The party of the god" and
" the party of the Satan". The party of the God is what stands
under the banner of the god and bears his insignia and the party of
the Satan (which includes every community , group, people race
individual) who do not stand under the banner of God. All Muslims
are party of god. After dividing humanity into two eternally
warring camps, Islam divides world cultures also.
There are two kinds of the cultures.First the Islamic culture
based on the fundamentals of Islam, and the JAHILI ( of ignorance)
culture which in non islamic.
JAHILI system includes all the polytheist systems that exist
in India, Japan, Philippines, and Africa. It also includes
Christian and Jewish cultures.
A muslim who is seeking a sanction for any action or belief
in any other political party or school of thought ceases to be a
Muslim and could be regarded as polytheist seeking solution alien
to all embracing doctrine of KORAN.
KOORAN commands muslims to despise idol worshipper and unclean
(like hindus) and not allow them to draw near the Kabah. It also
commands muslims to not allow the idol worshipper to inhibits Gods
mosque. KOORAN forbids muslims to take KAFIRS for there friends
and to be there helpers. It commands muslims to fight the KAFIR so
that the ISLAM gets the better of KUFR(infidelty/disbelief) for
good, wherever possible.
This kind of teachings and belief must have made Ambedkar warn
hindus:" HINDUS MUST TAKE NOTE OF THE FACT THAT MUSLIMS LOOK UPON
HINDUS AS KAFIRS WHO DESERVE TO BE EXTERMINATED " Islam claims
every other sect as misguided or even KAFIR. There attitude towards
the idol worshipper and pagan HINDUS is uniformly in accordance to
the principles of SHARIAT. The fundamentalist Muslims of India do
not look Hindus as there fellow countrymen but as KAFIRS. So it
becomes there divine duty to exterminate KAFIRS( HINDUS and other
non muslims).
Prophet is said to have said that all land belongs to Allah
and his prophet. All non muslim rulers are usurpers. That is why
JIHAD IS ALWAYS NECESSARY TO RESTORE LAND TO ALLAH FROM KAFIRS.
All countries ruled by muslims are called DAR UL ISLAM ( house
of Islam) and all the countries not ruled by muslims is called DAR
UL HARB( house of enemies). Thus Islam divides completely divides
all humanity into two warring camps "The party of god" and "The
party of Satan" and it divides all cultures into Islamic culture
and JAHILI cultures( the culture of ignorance). Islam divides all
governments into DAR UL ISLAM and DAR UL HARB. The JIHAD will end
only when entire humanity is brought under the rule of God. The
JIHAD will end when entire JAHILI culture has been destructed.
India is a DAR UL HARB since Muslim rule ended here and it will
remain so until the Muslim Rule is restored.
To declares Gods sovereignty means extraction of GODS usurped
sovereignty and its restoration to him. JIHAD IS RELIGIOUS DUTY OF
EVERY MUSLIM. EVERY MUSLIM MUST MAKE EFFORT TO CONVERT DAR UL HARB
INTO DAR UL ISLAM.
JIHAD is permanent state of war between ISLAM and KUFR which
will end only when the whole world has been brought under the
MUSLIM world. ISLAM dominates over all the religion. Nothing sort
of it can justify a believing Muslim. As a matter of temporary
truces not exceeding ten years are permissible but not peace.
A study of KOORAN and history of early believes reveals that
when GOD restrained muslims for JIHAD, it was a matter of strategy
not principle.
The seizure of political power is first step towards the
establishment of SHARIAT rule and for dominance of ISLAM over all
other religion.
A MUSLIM who wants to fulfill all the requirements of Islam
must live under SHARIAT rule. Thus any muslim living under another
law is actually not a Muslim. Thus all the Muslims living in India
will not be a true muslim if a common law is made for both Hindus
and Muslims.
Muslims in Kashmir are thus fighting to establish the law of
GOD in KASHMIR. They have strong justification for there fight.
This justification is divine. It will be therefore very hard to
explain the humanity to terrorist in the Kashmir.
IT IS NO USE OF REMINDING THE MUSLIMS OF INDIA AGAIN AND AGAIN
THAT THERE ANCESTORS WERE HINDUS. THEY CAN ONLY LOOK UPON THEM WITH
REGRET AS THE PEOPLE WHO DIED IN IGNORANCE. THE MUSLIMS WILL BE
MORE PITY TO THERE ANCESTOR THAN TO BE PROUD OF. The relative of a
muslim is not his father, his mother, brother, wife etc unless
there primary relation is creator( ie they are muslims.) Only
after that it proceeds to the blood relations.
A FUNDAMENTALIST muslim is one who not only believes but
practices and propagates these ideals of SHARIAT in his day to day
lives and helps achieving the final objectives of establishing law
of ALLAH every where.
BEING A FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIM IS A MATTER OF PRIDE RATHER THAN
OF REGRET FOR A DEVOUT MUSLIM.
The danger does not come from islam as a faith but from
SHARIATS political teachings and aspirations. The ultimate
objective of the SHARIAT being to fulfill its religious obligation
and destiny is destruction of all NON-ISLAMIC beliefs cultures
philosophies, ideals and governments and to replace them with
islamic governments, SHARIAT LAWS and dominance of ISLAM over all
other religions.
Neither the KOORAN or Mohammed advocated humanism or even
coexistence between muslims and non muslims. ISLAM with all its
apparatus, was conceived and devised as the religion to end all
the religion.
If anything is tired to resolve peacefully between muslim and
non muslim, it is seen in light of perpetual war going between the
ALLAH and the SATAN. Naturally if Hindus were demanding the Raam
Janambhoomi, it was the work of SATAN and every muslim had a divine
duty to resist for it.
The purpose of this article was to analyze the reasons of
TERRORISM and WAR propagated by Muslims all over the world. All the
readers should read it and try to analyze with there own experience
and understanding.
Regards,
Babu Ramabadran
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <BCJjAEAr...@areyou.demon.co.uk> Highgate E C
O mister Highgate:
I am proud of what ever caste I belong to. Also let me tell you
onething. A low caste hindu is much more civillized and enlightened
than your Mohammad and Gabrial.
I would rather prefer to be dalit to muslim, in my next birth.
regrards
babu ramabadran
Kabeer Punjabi
Gentleman,
This Highgate has shown how much he cares for low caste Hindus. Shame on
such people.
Kabeer
Khaled or Omar
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
> In <31DCC4...@ix.netcom.com> Khaled or Omar <kg...@ix.netcom.com>
> writes:
> >
> >"All religions are EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST ".!!!
> >Religions were meant to unite PEOPLE, but people got too obsessed with
> their religious
> >identity - and chose to divide. Religions ARE equal !!!
> >Pride and prejudice, ego and selfishness, greed and hatred - THESE are
> the ENEMIES;
> >not people of other religions.
> >Khaled.
>
> Khalid Miyan:
> I feel like laughing at your comment that all the religion are equl.
> The following essay will make it clear.
>
> ALL RELIGIOINS ARE NOT EQUAL
> ==============================
Baburam Babu:
Essays about "FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS" ! and "FANATIC HINDUS" only proves my point.
The teaching of ALL religions is universal - LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR.
But, how we intrepret it and how we manipulate it, is how we are judged (ultimately
by God).
Khaled
Khaled or Omar
Kabeer Punjabi wrote:
>
> Khaled or Omar wrote:
> >
> > "All religions are EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST ".!!!
> > Religions were meant to unite PEOPLE, but people got too obsessed with their religious
> > identity - and chose to divide. Religions ARE equal !!!
> > Pride and prejudice, ego and selfishness, greed and hatred - THESE are the ENEMIES;
> > not people of other religions.
> > Khaled.
>
>
> Your discription is perfect. Now your first statement, "All religions are
> EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST !!!", does not it fall under "Pride and
> prejudice, ego", that are the enemies of mankind?
>
> Just curious!
>
> Kabeer
a sarcasm against fanatics. Jeez !!! have to EXPLAIN every joke.
Khaled
V.Tripathi
BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
> O mister Highgate:
>
> I am proud of what ever caste I belong to. Also let me tell you
> onething. A low caste hindu is much more civillized and enlightened
> than your Mohammad and Gabrial.
> I would rather prefer to be dalit to muslim, in my next birth.
>
> regrards
>
> babu ramabadran__________________________________________________
Why Rambandarman, is being a dalit so bad that you will choose to
be one in your next birth only if you had one other choice, i.e., to be a
Muslim (which means of course, these two are at the bottom of your
choice, which betrays your Hindu fundamentalism as well)? How come you
profess not being casteist and yet betray it in every other sentence you
write ?
Vikram
P.S. This does not mean I support Highgate in any way and indeed I find
his remarks quite provocative and hateful.
Highgate E C
In article <4rkpc3$o...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, bab...@ix.netcom.com
writes
>In <BCJjAEAr...@areyou.demon.co.uk> Highgate E C
><high...@areyou.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>In article <4rhub1$e...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, bab...@ix.netcom.com
>>writes
>>>In <31DC3D...@cs.purdue.edu> Pavel <n...@cs.purdue.edu> writes:
>>>>
>>>>BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>:> babu ramabadran
>>>>:> >
>>>>:> >
>>>
>>Baburam sounds like a low caste Hindu name to me. listen Sonny you are
>>better off converting to Islam otherwise in your next life you could
>be
>>born as a third rate statistician.
>>--
>>Highgate E C
>
>
> I am proud of what ever caste I belong to. Also let me tell you
>onething. A low caste hindu is much more civillized and enlightened
>than your Mohammad and Gabrial.
> I would rather prefer to be dalit to muslim, in my next birth.
>
>regrards
>
>babu ramabadran
>
you.
Highgate E C
In article <31DE8A...@ix.netcom.com>, Kabeer Punjabi
<Kab...@ix.netcom.com> writes
>BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>>
>> In <BCJjAEAr...@areyou.demon.co.uk> Highgate E C
>> <high...@areyou.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> >
>> >In article <4rhub1$e...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, bab...@ix.netcom.com
>> >writes
>> >>In <31DC3D...@cs.purdue.edu> Pavel <n...@cs.purdue.edu> writes:
>> >>>
>> >>>BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>:> babu ramabadran
>> >>>:> >
>> >>>:> >
>> >>
>> >Baburam sounds like a low caste Hindu name to me. listen Sonny you are
>> >better off converting to Islam otherwise in your next life you could
>> be
>> >born as a third rate statistician.
>> >--
>> >Highgate E C
>>
>> O mister Highgate:
>>
>> I am proud of what ever caste I belong to. Also let me tell you
>> onething. A low caste hindu is much more civillized and enlightened
>> than your Mohammad and Gabrial.
>> I would rather prefer to be dalit to muslim, in my next birth.
>>
>> regrards
>>
>> babu ramabadran
>
>
>This Highgate has shown how much he cares for low caste Hindus. Shame on
>such people.
>
>Kabeer
rebirth into an ever more lower form of life. If he continues to
misquote statistics then it is likely that he is going to pay for it.
After all it is his belief that he cannot escape from the laws of Karma.
And since the punishment should fit the crime it would be adequate
punishment for him to be born as a third rate statistician.
As for yourself you are sentenced to touch a harijan and then forbidden
to take a ganga bath. Not even one little one.
Now then this information reaches all the Bannerjees', Chatterjees' and
Bhattacharjees' that you have touched a harijan. Get a load of that.
What do you think? They are going to pin a medal on you.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <31DE92...@ix.netcom.com> Khaled or Omar <kg...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>>
>> In <31DCC4...@ix.netcom.com> Khaled or Omar
<kg...@ix.netcom.com>
>> writes:
>> >
>> >"All religions are EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST ".!!!
>> >Religions were meant to unite PEOPLE, but people got too obsessed
with
>> their religious
>> >identity - and chose to divide. Religions ARE equal !!!
>> >Pride and prejudice, ego and selfishness, greed and hatred - THESE
are
>> the ENEMIES;
>> >not people of other religions.
>> >Khaled.
>>
>> Khalid Miyan:
>> I feel like laughing at your comment that all the religion are equl.
>> The following essay will make it clear.
>>
>> ALL RELIGIOINS ARE NOT EQUAL
>> ==============================
>
>Baburam Babu:
>Essays about "FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS" ! and "FANATIC HINDUS" only
proves my point.
>The teaching of ALL religions is universal - LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR.
>But, how we intrepret it and how we manipulate it, is how we are
judged (ultimately
>by God).
>Khaled
Khaled Miyan :
I appreciate your concern over deteriorating relations between the
muslims and hindus. I personally I like that the relations between the
hindus and muslim improve. Hindus have tried there best in this
direction. One third of india was given to muslims to make pakistan but
ungrate bastard muslims were not satisfied with that. They attacked on
kashmir and grabbed half of the kashmir also. Then they started
messing up wiht the constitution of india also. Hindus requested
muslims to return the holy shrines of Ayodhaya , Kahi , Mathura etc,
but the muslims are refusing to it also. Lately one communal and
criminal muslim leader Taslimuddin form Bihar promised to give
reservations to muslims. Not only that a few days back, muslims leaders
presented 17 point demand to the govt. What do all these incidents
point to. Did I say anything different in my essay.
1. If the islam considers all religions same, what hell broke if the
Ram Temple is restored which was demolished by Babar.
2. What hell will break on muslim of the Uniform civil code will be
implemented
3. What the hell will break if the article 370 is scraped and the
kashmir will fully integerated into india.
4. What the hell will break if the bangladeshi are deported to there
country.
5. The muslim are only 12% of the populations of india, but more than
60% crimes are committed by these treacherous and ungrateful muslims.
Please answer my questions. And also suggest if you have any thing to
remove the probem of islam form india. The things that naturally comes
to my minda is that. I suggest the following measures to be taken.
1. Ban quran in india.
2. All the muslims hired in Govt , beaurocracy, police, army etc must
take an oath to the effect that they will regard India grater than
DAR-UL-ISLAM etc and that they will not work against india even for
the sake of QURAN. If it is not possible , then I think that Pakistan
is the right place for the indian muslims.
3. All the MADARASAS (seats of learning of Islamic Terrorism) must
declare there assets and the source of income including the donations
form the Islamic middle-east.
4. All the Mosques/Madarasa must be accessible to police at all the
times. The Sub Inspecter should have authority to conduct raids in
case of any doubtful activitu wihtout permission from highre officials.
5. The head clergy should issue a guarantee that the Mosques will not
be used for storage of any kind of arms. In case of any arm seized form
the mosques, the cleargy will be personaly responsible for it and will
be punishable.
6. No more muslims should be funded by indian tax payers money for Haj
etc.
I hope that these measures will help to check the islamic terrorism to
some extent in india.
I have again appended my essay so that the readers may themselve decide
that what is right. Are all religions really equal????
ALL RELIGIONS ARE NOT EQUAL:
REGARDS
babu ramabadran
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <31DF09...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> "V.Tripathi"
<vt...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> writes:
>BABU RAMABADRAN wrote:
>
>> O mister Highgate:
>>
>> I am proud of what ever caste I belong to. Also let me tell you
>> onething. A low caste hindu is much more civillized and enlightened
>> than your Mohammad and Gabrial.
>> I would rather prefer to be dalit to muslim, in my next birth.
>>
>> regrards
>>
>
> Why Rambandarman, is being a dalit so bad that you will choose
to
>be one in your next birth only if you had one other choice, i.e., to
be a
>Muslim (which means of course, these two are at the bottom of your
>choice, which betrays your Hindu fundamentalism as well)? How come you
>profess not being casteist and yet betray it in every other sentence
you
>write ?
>
>Vikram
>
>P.S. This does not mean I support Highgate in any way and indeed I
find
>his remarks quite provocative and hateful.
Tripathi ji:
Actually what ever be the cast , a HINDU IS HINDU. PERIOD!!!!.
now about being muslims. I will make the following comments. The
mussalman is the worst creation of the GOD. Therefore, I would rather
like to go to hell than to be a muslim. If i must take some live next
time will not mind becoming snake, dog, cat, fish, bacteria, virus,
protozoa, hydra, flagella or anything you name. I will not be tempted
to become a human as a MUSSALMAN.
Anywaym do not worry tripathi ji, I have not committed so many sins
that I have to become muslim in next life.
Regards,
babu ramabadran
Shams
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Khaled Miyan :
deleted.
: I have again appended my essay so that the readers may themselve decide
: that what is right. Are all religions really equal????
: ALL RELIGIONS ARE NOT EQUAL:
: ==============================
deleted.
Dear Babu,
Your essay regarding the Islmaic Shariat and muslims in India was both
interesting and intriguing.
However, your suggestions for muslim representation in India seem to take
off on a tangent. Namely, you come off in the essay as being a balanced
and intelligent person, however, your first suggestion of banning Quran
a religous book which does not teach anything like what the illiterate and
scum of the earth mullahs preach, is both hypocritical and self serving.
You donot seem to be the same person who wrote the essay, wanting equall
treatment, and freedom of speech.
A good suggestion, I think would be to elevate the level of education for
all, especially women. They are the real hand behind raising men for ages.
Educate women, and ofcourse, men, properly to understand the world as well
as other religions and cultures openly, without mullah intervention,
and most of the big problems will go away.
I am no scholar, and you apparently seem to have a lot to post on religions
and Islam, etc. Thus I shall take my leave, without any animosity what so
ever, and hope to see a better world for hindus and muslims, sooner then
later.
Best Regards,
Shams Haason.
hassan monu alam
Khaled or Omar (kg...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: "All religions are EQUAL, but MINE is the BEST ".!!!
: identity - and chose to divide. Religions ARE equal !!!
: Pride and prejudice, ego and selfishness, greed and hatred - THESE are the ENEMIES;
: not people of other religions.
You got that right!
: Khaled.
--
Hassan Alam
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4rn1a6$n...@news.ios.com> sh...@tribeca.ios.com (Shams) writes:
>
>BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Khaled Miyan :
>:
>: I appreciate your concern over deteriorating relations between the
>: muslims and hindus. I personally I like that the relations between
the
>: hindus and muslim improve. Hindus have tried there best in this
>: direction. One third of india was given to muslims to make pakistan
but
attacked on
>: kashmir and grabbed half of the kashmir also. Then they started
>: messing up wiht the constitution of india also. Hindus requested
etc,
>: but the muslims are refusing to it also. Lately one communal and
>: criminal muslim leader Taslimuddin form Bihar promised to give
>: reservations to muslims. Not only that a few days back, muslims
leaders
>: presented 17 point demand to the govt. What do all these incidents
>
>: 1. If the islam considers all religions same, what hell broke if the
>: Ram Temple is restored which was demolished by Babar.
>
>: 2. What hell will break on muslim of the Uniform civil code will be
>: implemented
>
>: 3. What the hell will break if the article 370 is scraped and the
>: kashmir will fully integerated into india.
>
>: 4. What the hell will break if the bangladeshi are deported to there
>: country.
>
>: 5. The muslim are only 12% of the populations of india, but more
than
>: 60% crimes are committed by these treacherous and ungrateful
muslims.
>
>: Please answer my questions. And also suggest if you have any thing
to
>: remove the probem of islam form india. The things that naturally
comes
>: to my minda is that. I suggest the following measures to be taken.
>
>: 1. Ban quran in india.
>: 2. All the muslims hired in Govt , beaurocracy, police, army etc
must
>
Sham Bhai:
Let me expalain my suggestions one by one. Please let me know if
anything is undemocratic there. Yes it may hurt your muslim pride, but
those suggestions are still better as they will help muslims to wash
the stigma of being unpatriotic and keeping loyalty to a hostile
neighbouring coountry. I suggested following actions to be taken by
Govt of India.
1. Ban quran in india.
If a book called THE SATANIC VERSES, written in English, which does not
have anything objectionable in it, should be banned then , why not
QURAN, which instructs muslims to kill non-muslims ( ie hindus in India
) be banned also. I want to know why this ban should be onjectionable
to muslims. Moreover in india we need more civilized people rather than
ungrateful muslims.
2. All the muslims hired in Govt , beaurocracy, police, army etc must
take an oath to the effect that they will regard India grater than
DAR-UL-ISLAM etc and that they will not work against india even for
the sake of QURAN. If it is not possible , then I think that Pakistan
is the right place for the indian muslims.
What is objectionable in my above suggestion. If a muslim is really
patriotic and has not ill feeling towards india and its hindus, then it
should not have any objection to taking a oath of loyalty to hindus and
India.
3. All the MADARASAS (seats of learning of Islamic Terrorism) must
declare there assets and the source of income including the donations
form the Islamic middle-east.
Yes there is nothing wrong in this suggestions also. Govt should now
how money is coming to Madarasas etc. It will help to run smooth
administration in country.
4. All the Mosques/Madarasa must be accessible to police at all the
times. The Sub Inspecter should have authority to conduct raids in
case of any doubtful activitu wihtout permission from highre officials.
In almost all the riots that have happend in india, the religious
places have been in variably misused by the muslims. It is
responsobility of the govt to ensure that the Mosques are not used as
arsenals. Therefore the police must be given adequate powers to deal
with anti-national activity happening through the Mosques. To explain
this thing to you , I will quote the example of HAZRAT BAL CHARAR
SHERIEF MOSQUES in kashmir. The millitants were hiding there and even
army was unable to take any actions against the millitants. The MOSQUES
should not be used for terrorism.
5. The head clergy should issue a guarantee that the Mosques will not
be used for storage of any kind of arms. In case of any arm seized form
the mosques, the cleargy will be personaly responsible for it and will
be punishable.
I do not see anything objectionable in this suggestion also. The
cleargy is the mostly incharge of all the activity happening in the
mosques. By making the clergy responsible for any anti-nationals
activity happening through the Mosque can be checked. Also the clergies
should be instructed that they inform police as soon as they see any
anti-national activity in the premises of the Mosque.
6. No more muslims should be funded by indian tax payers money for Haj
etc.
Did muslims ask govt before becoming musalmaan that the govt should
finance the Haj. Also of the cow slaughere ban makes so much of noice
in the muslim of india. Why should muslims be given money for Haj?? If
the haj is important, they should work hard for it. INstead of wasting
money on sending treacherous muslims for haj, the same money can be
used for feeding,if not all the, to many poors of India for some time.
>
>: I have again appended my essay so that the readers may themselve
decide
>: that what is right. Are all religions really equal????
>
>
>: ALL RELIGIONS ARE NOT EQUAL:
>: ==============================
>
Soumitra Bose
In <4re7nt$p...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari)
writes:
>
>Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: >Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: The face of Islam which humanized India and Hinduism
>: >
>: >Soumitra:
>: >
>: >I will give a detailed response to this post in a couple
>: >of days. But could you explain one major fact. How is
>: >it that the percentage of Hindus in B'desh has fallen
>: >from 40% to a measly 10%. Does your syncretism explain
>: >it. Also, could you tell me as to why Chakmas are running
>: >away from B'desh.
>: >
>: >If you cannot explain that, then all your theory is a false
>: >hood. Or else, please enlighten.
>: >
>: >--
>
>: I always thought that You are at least a little bit intelligent in
>: reading through the text, I am sorry I was wrong. In my article I
>: clearly mentioned that the 20 years of militarism and Saudisation
has
>: messed up the Bangladesh situation, I always maintain that the
people
>: and sub-altern of Bangladesh had been fighting and are still
fighting
>: against any such Saudiisation of their country. The women of BD has
>: risen more than any part of the sub-continent. The point is that of
an
>: ideology and view-point .
>
>
>1. It is indeed graceful of you to entertain the notion that
> I might have had a bit of intelligence. It is indeed graceful
> to recieve such a remark, from an enlightened, Bengali,
universalist,
> esp. if the honor is being bestowed upon a lowly Bhaiyya.
>
>2. Yet, despite all this universalism, and sheer intellect, I do
> still understand your answer to the fact that 40% Hindu population
> in B'desh has gradually fallen to 10%. Despite the fact that it
> is in the blood of Bengali manush to resist fundamentalism, and
> go in for a full blown syncretic culture. I would rather have
> my 40% Hindus, than this sort of culture, which reduces Hindus
> by such significant amounts.
>
>Soumitra da, mujhe samajhaiyey.
>
>--
>Nachiketa Tiwari
>
>=====================================================
>750 Tall Oaks Drive 118 Patton Hall
>Apt. # 3600 I Virginia Tech
>Blacksburg, VA 24060. Blacksburg, VA 24061.
>(540)-951-3979 (540)-231-4611
>=====================================================
This is the problem of a group of North -Indians . Why do I say only A
group , because of the following
tHE UPPER-CASTE Hindu North-Indians do have within them a not so
tiny group who have not taken part in any revolutionary movement
(liberation movement or otherwise) but enjoys all the benefits which
had been offered by their other upper-caste-but-revolutionary-brethren
and the lower-caste-lower-class(I do not believe in the simpleteon
Lohiaite equation of the two categories) . the result has been
catastrophic.
They do not understand the value of sacrifice , they do not
understand the value of camaraderie in fighting an institution.
These people do not understand that if a government is run by the enemy
of the people and if they are run by fanatics(same thing would have
happened if BJP would have come to India , we have seen how Muslim
girls are officially and publicly raped and videotaped in Mumbai) then
it is not that the people rebels immidiately , it takes time m they
only do so after they have lost all ways and means to remove the
government . Almost all the democratic ways were getting over when
somehow they have managed to remove the 22 years of militarism and
fanatic governance. This process was started actually by Sheik Mujib
himself when he cowed down to Saudis.But with his killing the downfall
of the Hindus and the intellectuals started. It was as a matter of fact
the common people who took all the pains to safe-guard the Hindus to
the extent they can . The second thing I have seen many rational
bengalees here gulping the BJP propagandas , when the surface is dug
they accept that they had been following a dangerous track of
hate-mongering and feel ashamed , but they reacted , even during the
aftermath of BAbri many leftists became Hindu fanatics for a short
while , later on they all calmed down and followed theri consciousness,
tickling someone on the question is the easiest Satanic act one can do
,It is even easier to sway a muslim by saying Islam Khatre me hain ,
exactly similarly BJP says now "Bangal me Dharm ko Buri khatra paida
hui hain" , every one knows no religion is so nubile to be in danger so
easily , but that is exactly the weapon of the hate -mongers , fear is
their commodity and hate is their service . So
So if you are diligent enough (I think you do can reallly do it if you
wnat it ) you can do it , please concentrate on the movement of the
people , on the protests and resistances of the people against
institutions , against governments , against armies(which are all
mercenaries paid to kill country men in today's world) . The volume is
less but concentrate on the progressive rate and you would find how the
people reacts in the most sane way . After all the BD people have
dumped BNP,Jamaat,Islami Sahaba PArishad etc.
Soumitra Bose
In <4rgv2n$o...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari)>: |Let me give you another weapon in your hand against me . Quote Prof
>: Benoy Sirkar in your favour , he was much more Hindu-fanatic than
>: anyone , he also allegedly had facts -nevr proven though-. This is
tha
>: man who extolled Hitler as to be the future saviour of our country.
The
>: more you would quote from Jadunath Sircar,Benoy Sircar , the better
>: would it be for us to see you through, very many bengalis have read
>: his"works" and we know how much respect he holds now in
Bengal....,Well
>: why not Dayanand Saraswati or Swami Shradhananda's version of Bengal
>: history , well you can quote them too, the architect of first
communal
>: riot in Calcutta , they might not have been bengali speaking but
worked
>: in Bengal too? Go ahead !!!
>
>It is not that easy. You are trapped in "us" v/s "them"
>theory. Whatever I have posted from Sarkar's book, is
>not his opinion. Rather, he gives refers to specific
>texts/letters/articles etc. which were written in the
>times, about which he comments upon. Opinion is one
>thing. Facts are altogether different. But then obsession
>with facts is one thing that communist/leftist folks
>have never preferred. They have deliberately tried
>to manufacture views. And that is what you have been
>doing.
>--
>Nachiketa Tiwari
>
>=====================================================
>750 Tall Oaks Drive 118 Patton Hall
>Apt. # 3600 I Virginia Tech
>Blacksburg, VA 24060. Blacksburg, VA 24061.
>(540)-951-3979 (540)-231-4611
>=====================================================
Yes i am trapped , and i am proud to be trapped in this case , hate
-mongers are no human beings , the fact that the historicism of
Jadunath,Benoybabu and to an extent Ramesh babu in bengal and the new
breed of historians have come up (I know for a fact not one of them are
LF protagonists) shows how and where the general people's consciousness
is going (even when they do not like social-fascists ). ANyway to
bengalees rape is the most henioous crime not to be pardoned or
expected to be recouped . We cannot support reaction-rapists either.
PRobably one single reason why BJp has lost all his hope in Bengal
after what they did in Mumbai. We have got a complete report of that in
the grand narrative and grand reportage (a best seller) "ekti dangar
protibedon" by Debesh Roy.
Soumitra Bose
In <4rgvcj$o...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari)
writes:
>
>V.Tripathi (vt...@hermes.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
>: N. Tiwari wrote:
>: The hindus might indeed have been treated badly in
Bangladesh
>: as a minority. That doesn't mean we should take a cue from such
actions
>: and start behaving similarly towards our minorities.
>
>: Vikram
>
>I have never advocated that. But, that denial does not
>imply that I have to go out to appease every person in
>my land, since (s)he belongs to a particular community.
>Further, if history is a lesson, then the role of violence
>in Islamic theologies must be emphasized. With sufficient
>exposure, I am sure that the Muslims themselves will
>acknowledge what is already out there, and this in turn
>could trigger reform from inside. I consider this exercise
>as important, since there are crores of Muslims in India,
>and their state of affairs is critical to the growth of
>India.
How Come I find Many Bd muslims supporting us Wbengalees and are
sincerely repentant of what the government and the goons are doing to
the Hindus ,Boudhas and Cristians there in Bd , but I do not find a
single BJP opposing or denigrating the grand rape of Muslim girls in
the name of Hinduism or the burning of Sikhs in Delhi that too in the
name of Hinduism . Why do you have to bring in Hinduism in all these
about which you guys probably know not too much.
Soumitra Bose
In <96186.11...@psuvm.psu.edu> Dinesh Agrawal <DX...@psuvm.psu.edu>
writes:
>
>Mr Soumitra Bose in his futile attempt tried to show that Islam had
>humanized Hinduism and India by providing distorted and perverted
>interpretaions of historical events, by misquoting various people,
>and by pure concoctions. Many netters very articulately have already
>exposed the faults and lies in Mr Bose's commentary. He had also
>mentioned Vivekananda and how BJP and Hindutva supporters have
>been misrepresenting his views vis-a-vis Islam. Hereunder, I am
>confining myself only on this aspect of Mr. Bose's post. Let us
>see how Swami Vivekananda had felt about Islam and what it did
>to the world in general and to india in particular. I leave it
>to the netters to make their own judgement to decide whether
>Soumitra is spreading a deliberate lie or BJP is distorting
>Swamiji's message.
>
>Dinesh Agrawal...
>*****************************************
>Swami Vivekananda on Islam
>
>Swami Vivekananda was like Rama. He never spared his words. His
exhortations
>to cast away fear and speak the unvarnished truth earned him titles
like the
>'cyclonic Hindu' the "warrior monk". His thinking on Islam makes very
>perceptive reading.
>
> Swami ji said "people who deny the efficiency of any investigation
into
>religion seem to me somewhat to be contradicting themselves. For
instance the
>Christian claims that his religion is the only true one, because it
was
>revealed to so and so. The Mohammedan makes the same claims for his
religion;
>his is the only true one because it was revealed to so and so. But the
>Christian says to the Mohammedan, "Certain parts of your ethics do not
seem to
>be right. For instance, your books say, Mohammedan friend, that an
infidel may
>be converted to the religion of the Mohammed by force and if he will
not accept
>the Mohammedan religion he may be killed; and any Mohemmedan who kills
such an
>infidel will get a sure entry into heaven, whatever may have been his
sins or
>misdeeds". The Mohammedan will retort by saying, "It is right for me
to do so
>because my book enjoins it. It will be wrong on my part not to do so".
The
>Christian says: "But my book does not say so". The Mohammedan replies
" I do
>not know. I am not bound by the authority of your book; my book says,
I kill
>all the infidels'. How do you know which is right and which is wrong?
Surely
>what is written in my book is right and what your book says, 'Do not
kill, is
>wrong..'The books fighting among themselves cannot be the judges.
Decidedly
>then we have to admit that there is something higher than we have to
admit that
>there is something more universal than these books, something higher
that all
>the ethical codes that are in the world, something which can judge
between the
>strength of inspirations of different nations. Whether we declare it
boldly
>clearly or not - it is evident that here we appeal to reason (The
Complete
>Work of Swami Vivekananda, Vol I 368-69).
>
> After giving a brief history of Mohammed's early life that: He grew
up a
>trader. At the age of 25 he became an overseer of the rich widow
Khadija. In
>595 AD he married Khadija. By the time he reached 40 he started
spending some
>time in a year in a lonly cave on Mount Hira. It was here that he
experienced
>a vision of the Angel Gabriel who addressed him as the Messenger of
Allah or
>God and not the prophet. Mohammed's mother Amminah often claimed that
she was
>visited by spirits and at times claimed to have visions and religious
experien-
>ces. This background prompted Swamiji to say: " Mohammed claimed that
the Angel
>Gabriel came to him in a cave one day and took him on the heavenly
horse, Harak
>and he visited the heavens. But with all that Mohammed spoke some
wonderful
>truths. If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths
mixed with
>superstitions. How will you explain this? That man was inspired, no
doubt, but
>that inspiration was as it were stumbled upon. He was not a trained
Yogi, and
>did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the great evil
that has
>been done through his fanaticism! Think of the millions massacred
through his
>teachings, mothers bereft of their children, children made orphans
whole
>countries destroyed, millions upon millions of people killed". (I.
184)
>
> "Mohammedanism came as a message for the masses. The first massage
was
>equality, this great message was perfectly simple. Believe in one God,
the
>creator of heaven and earth. Their temples are like protestant
churches, no
>music, no paintings, no pictures. A pulpit in the corner. On that lies
the
>Koran. The people all stand in line. No priest, no parson, no bishop"
(I.481).
>
> Swamiji further said: "The Mohammedan who thinks that every
ritual, every
>form, image or ceremony used by a non-Mohammedan is sinful does not
think so
>when he comes to his own shrine, the Kaaba. Every religious Mohammedan
where-
>ever he prays, must imagine that he is standing before the Kaaba. When
he
>makes a pilgrimage there, he must kiss the black stone in the wall of
the
>shrine. All the kisses that have been imprinted on that stone, by
millions
>and millions of pilgrims will stand up as witnesses for the benefit of
the
>faithful on the last day of judgement. Then there is the well of Zam
Zam.
>Mohammedans believe that who ever draws a little water out of that
well will
>have sins pardoned, and he will, after the day of resurrection, have a
fresh
>body, and live for ever (II:39). The Mohammedans use the graves of
their
>sainst and martyres almost in the place of images (III:61).
>
> Of the Muslim Paradise, Swamiji said: "They say that the heaven is
a
>place where there are gardens, beneath which rivers run. In the desert
of
>Arabia, water is very desirable, so the Mohammedan always conceive of
his
>heaven as containing much water. (II:316)
>
> Following is an often quoted Swamiji's view on the synthesis of
Hinduism
>and Islam, the people do not go in the depth of this Utopian hope: "My
>experience is that if any religion approached equality in an
appreciable manner
>it is Islam and Islam alone. Therefore, I am firmly persuaded that
without the
>help of practical Islam, theories of Vedantism, however fine and
wonderful they
>may be, are entirely valueless to the vast mass of mankind. We want to
lead
>mankind to the place where there is neither the Vedas, nor the Bible,
nor the
>Koran yet this has to be done by harmonising the Vedas, the Bible and
the
>Koran... For our own motherland a junction of the two great systems,
Hinduism
>and Islam-Vedanta brain and Islam body- is the only hope." Here
Swamiji is
>very clear that concept of equality of Islam has to be extended to the
univer-
>sal equality as propounded in the Vedantic thought, and the division
of the
>mankind into the land of believers and non-believers or Muslims,
Zimmis and
>Kafirs as enjoined and sanctioned in the Koran has to be done with by
synthe-
>sizing the basic Islamic truths with the Vedantic truth of divinity in
all,
>then only the fusion of Islamic body and Vedantic brain would work.
>
> Swami Vivekananda while appreciated the best part of Islam, and
exhorted
>to the non-Muslims to adopt that, he was also ruthless in condemning
the
>barbaric, divisive and inhumane aspects and actions of Islam and its
followers,
>he did not mince words when he stated: "The Mohammedan religion allows
Mohamme-
>dans to kill all who are not of their religion. It is clearly stated
in Koran,
>"Kill the infidels if they do not become Mohammedans". They must be
put to fire
>and sword. (II.335). Think of the little sects, born within a few
hundred years
>out of fallible human brains, making this arrogant claim of knowledge
of the
>whole of God's infinite truth! Think of the arrogance of it! If it
shows any-
>thing, it is this how vain human beings are. And it is no wonder that
such
>claims have always failed, and , by the mercy of the Lord, are always
destined
>to fail. In this line the Mohammedans were the best off; every step
forward was
>made with the sward - the Koran in the one hand and the sward in the
other:
>"Take the Koran, or you must die; there is no alternative!". You know
from
>history how phenomenal was their success; for six hundred years
nothing could
>resist them, and then there came a time when they had to cry halt. So
will it
>be with other religions if they follow the same methods." (II:369-70)
>
> "Wave after wave of barbarian conquest has rolled over this
devoted land
>of ours. "Allah Ho Akbar!" has rent the skies for hundreds of years,
and no
>Hindu knew what moment would be his last. This is the most suffering
and the
>most subjugated of all the historic lands in the world. Yet we will
stand
>practically the same race, ready to face difficulties again and again
if
>necessary; and not only so, of late there have been signs that we are
not only
>strong, but ready to go out for the sign of life in expansion."
(III.369-70)
>
> "What is called the Mohammedan invasion, conquest or colonisation
of India
>means only this that under the leadership of Mohammedan Turks, who
were renega-
>des from Buddhism, those sections of the Hindu race who continued in
the faith
>of their ancestors were repeatedly conquered by the other section of
that very
>race, who also were renegades from Buddhism of the Vedic religion and
served
>under the Turks, having been forcibly converted to Mohammedanism by
thier
>superior strength. (VII:395)
>
> The Koran further says: The unbelievers among the people of the
Book of
>Ahl-i-Kitab (i.e. Jews and Christians) and the pagans shall burn for
ever in
>the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures (S98:6).
>
> Swamiji said of this: "Christian people hate no religion in the
world so
>much as Mohammedenism. They think it is the worst form of religion
that ever
>existed. As soon as a man becomes a Mohammedan, the whole of Islam
receives
>him as a brother with open arms, without making any distinction, which
no
>other religion does. If one of your American Indians becomes a
Mohammedan, the
>Sultan of Turkey would have no objection to dine with him. If he has
brains.
>no position is barred to him... Islam makes its followers all equal,
so that,
>you see, is the peculiar excellence of Mohammedanism. In many places
in the
>Koran you find very sensual ideas of life. Never mind. What
Mohammedanism
>comes to preach to the world is this practical brotherhood of all
belonging to
>their faith, that is the essential part of the Mohammedan religion;
and all the
>other idea about heaven and of life etc. are not Mohammedanism. They
are
>accretions (II:371-72).
>
> According to Islam, Allah is unknowable. He is so transendent, so
exalted,
>that no man can ever personally know Allah. To the Muslim the idea
that Allah
>is a person or a spirit is blasphemous because this would demean the
exalted
>one. Allah is not limited by anything. He is not even limited by his
own
>nature. Swamiji used to react to this belief by saying: "For the
Mohammedans,it
>is impossible to have this idea of God as a child; they will shrink
from it
>with a kind of horror. But the Christian and the Hindu can realise it
easily
>because they have the Baby Jesus and the Baby Krishna. (III:96)
>
> Swamiji also reacted on the 'universal brotherhood' in Islam by
saying:
>Mohammedans talk of universal brotherhood, but what comes out of that
in
>reality? Why anybody who is not a Mohammedan will not be admitted into
the
>brotherhood; he will more likely have his throat cut. (II:380)
>
> More from Swamiji on this aspect: "Now, some Mohammedans are the
crudest
>in this respect, and the most sectarian. Their watchword is "There is
one
>God, and Mohammed is His Prophet". Everything beyond that not only is
bad, but
>must be destroyed forthwith; at a moment's notice. every man or woman,
who
>does not exactly believe in that, must be killed; everything that does
not
>belong to this worship must be immediately broken; every book that
teaches
>anything else must be burnt. From the Pacific to the Atlantic, for
five
>hundred years, blood ran all over the world. That is Mohammedanism!
Neverthe-
>less, among these Mohammedans, wherever there was a philosophic man,
he was
>sure to protest against these cruelties. (IV:126)
>
> Tracing a brief history of the Tartar and Turk races which were
converted
>from Buddhism to Islam, and then they went to conquer the Hindus,
Persians,
>and Arabs, Swami Vivekananda then speaks how these Tartars (now
Mohammedans)
>had conquered other kingdoms:"The Tartars seized and occupied the
throne of
>the Arabian Caliph, took possession of Jerusalem, the great Christian
place
>of pilgrimage, and other places, would not allow pilgrims to visit the
holy
>sepulchre, and killed many Christians. The heads of the Christian
Chruches grew
>mad with rage and roused their barbarian disciples throughout Europe
who in
>turn inflamed the kings and their subjects alike. Hordes of European
barbarians
>rushed towards Asia Minor to deliver Jerusalem from the hands of the
infidels.
>A good portion of them cut one another's throats, others died or
disease, while
>the rest were killed by the Mohammedans. However, the blood was up of
the wild
>barbarians, and no sooner had the Mohammedans killed them than they
arrived in
>fresh numbers - with that dogged obstinacy of a wild savage. They
thought noth-
>ing even of plundering their own men, and making meals of Mohammedans
when they
>found nothing better. It is well known that the English king Richard
has a
>liking for Mohammedans flesh. (V:529-30)
>
> Islam accepts that Mohammed and Jesus were both prophets sent by
Allah.
>Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy spirit
in the
>womb of virgin Mary. But muslims deny and ridicule the doctrine of the
virgin
>birth of Jesus. For christine Jesus the christ was divine as well as
human.
>But allah the unique creator of the world, the Father, has no daughter
and
>sons. Angel Gabriel addressed Mohammed as the only "Messenger of
Allah". This
>is beautifully expressed by Swami ji, "Mohammed is not worshipped in
the same
>sense as Christ. Mohammed believes in Christ but denies he is God"
(II:478).
>
> Regarding the fact that in Muslim countries the non-Muslim
religious
>communities had difficulty in performing their religious duties and
the
>theocratic governments do not allow to build temples or churches, no
wonder
>Swamiji said: "It is here that Indians build temples for Mohammedans
and
>Christians. Nowhere else. If you go to other countries and ask
Mohammedans or
>people of other religions to build a temple for you, see how they will
help.
>They will instead try to break your temple and you too if they can
(III:114).
>
> Ramajanambhoomi Movement: For the last 500 years the struggle to
regain
>the birthplace of Lord Rama in Ayodhya has been going on and off, and
recently
>it had reached to its final phase. The Muslims and pseudsecularists
have
>demanded proof of Rama's birth forgetting that they are most
vulnerable if a
>counter question was put forth regarding similar beliefs in other
religions.
>Yet Hindus paraded plenty of proofs to demonstrate the fact that there
was a
>Rama temple at the site of disputed structure, which was destroyed at
the
>orders of an invader, and a mosque-like structure was built at its
place using
>the temple-material. But no avail, Hindus continued to endure,
presevere, and
>wait to prevail the wise counsels, and ultimately when all failed, the
limits
>were transgressed, enough was enough, a volcano type situation was
created, and
>as a result Dec.6th of 1992 happened! Let us see what Swamiji says
related to
>such situations:
>"...You have withstood the shocks of centuries simply because you took
great
>care of it, you sacrificed everything else for it. Your forefathers
underwent
>everything boldly, even death itself, but preserved their religion.
Temple
>after temple was broken down by the foreigner conquerers, but no
sooner had the
>wave passed than the spire of the temple rose up again. Some of these
old
>temples of southern India and those like Somnath of Gujarat will teach
you
>volumes of wisdom, will give you a keener insight into the history of
the race
>than any amount of books. Mark how these temples bear the marks of a
hundred
>attacks and a hundred regenerations, continually destroyed and
continually
>springing up out of the ruins, rejuvenated and strong as ever! That is
the
>national mind, that is the national life-current. Follow it and it
leads
>to glory. Give it up and you die; death will be the only result,
annihilation
>the only effect, the moment you step beyond that life-current.
(III:289)
>
> Swamiji was very much pained by the cast system, untouchability
and the
>unspeakable social tyranny. Swamiji was concerned at the deplorable
lack of
>unity and corrupted social customs. Islam too has castes like the
Shia, Sunni,
>Ahmaddiya, Dawoodi Bohra, Sulemain, Bohra, Ismailli Khoja, Memon,
Moplah, the
>Sufi, the Chisti, and so on. Swamiji advised the Hindus: "How could
Mohammedan-
>ism have lived, had there been nothing good in its teaching? There is
much
>good. Mohammed was the prophet of equality, of the brotherhood of all
Muslims.
>(IV:133). "..Why amongst the poor of India so many are Mohammedans? It
is non-
>sense to say they were all converted by sword. It was to gain their
liberty fro
>m the zamindars and from the priest, and as a consequence you find in
Bengal
>there are more Mohammedans than Hindus amongst the cultivator because
there
>were so many zamindars there. (VIII:330)
>
> The heroic resistance of Hindus against Islamic imperialism the
growth of
>many sects, the supreme sacrifices of Guru Tegh Bahadur and the Bhakti
Saints
>checked the Muslim proselytizing activity. Swamiji said: "Again it is
in an
>undoubted fact that if there had not been the advent of Kabir, Nanak
and Chait-
>anya in the Mohammedan period, and the establishment of the Brahmo
Samaj and
>the Arya Samaj in our own day, then, by this time, the Mohammedans and
the
>Christians would have far outnumbered the Hindus of the present day in
India.
>(IV:463)
>
> Swamiji was right when he said: "This Vedantic spirit of
religious
>liberality has very much affected Mohammedanism. Mohammedanism in
India is
>quite a different thing from that in any other country. It is only
when
>Mohammedans come from other countries and preach to their
coreligionists in
>India about living with men who are not of their faith that a
Mohammedan mob
>is aroused and fights. (V:310-11)
>
> Swamiji treated all children of this land, irrespective of their
religion
>as Hindus which is a cultural concept, he reminded: "The word Hindu,
therefore,
>covers not only Hindus proper, but Mohammedans, Christians, Jains and
other
>people who live in India." (III:118).
>
> Finally Swami Vivekananda summarizes the Hindu way of thinking, the
>Sanatan Dharma, and a mission for the mankind in the following words:
>
>SUCH A RELIGION WHICH WILL HAVE NO PLACE FOR PERSECUTION OR
INTOLERANCE IN ITS
>POLITY, WHICH WILL RECOGNISE 'DIVINITY' IN EVERY MAN AND WOMAN AND
WHOSE
>WHOLE SCOPE, WHOSE WHOLE FORCE WILL BE CENTERED IN AIDING HUMANITY, TO
REALISE
>ITS OWN TRUTH - DIVINE NATURE; IS ONLY FOUND IN OUR ANCIENT WAY, NOW
KNOWN AS
>HINDU WAY OF THINKING. OFFER SUCH A RELIGION AND ALL NATIONS WILL
FOLLOW YOU.
Holy Toledo!!! So much verbage only with the most important deliberate
substitution of Islam with some invadors who happened to have taken the
name of Islam? What a wonderful way of distortion of Swami
Vivekandanda/ Dis-information is now an art with BJP. BEngalees are at
least (including the Muslim ones) magnanimous enough not to equate the
Bargis(the Maratha looters ) with KAli or Hinduism in-spite of the fact
that they did all their looting,arson and killing shouting MA Bhabani.
That is the difference in power of syncretism and hate-mongering.
N. Tiwari
Soumitra Bose (soum...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: This is the problem of a group of North -Indians . Why do I say only A
: group , because of the following
: tHE UPPER-CASTE Hindu North-Indians do have within them a not so
: tiny group who have not taken part in any revolutionary movement
: (liberation movement or otherwise) but enjoys all the benefits which
: had been offered by their other upper-caste-but-revolutionary-brethren
: and the lower-caste-lower-class(I do not believe in the simpleteon
: Lohiaite equation of the two categories) . the result has been
: catastrophic.
Sure, go ahead with your problem solving approach.
: They do not understand the value of sacrifice , they do not
: understand the value of camaraderie in fighting an institution.
You are an ignorant person, or you are blind to some truths.
Care to remember as what was the contribution of "bhaiyaas"
(both high and low castes) in independence struggle.
: These people do not understand that if a government is run by the enemy
: of the people and if they are run by fanatics(same thing would have
: happened if BJP would have come to India , we have seen how Muslim
: girls are officially and publicly raped and videotaped in Mumbai) then
: it is not that the people rebels immidiately , it takes time m they
: only do so after they have lost all ways and means to remove the
: government .
O ignorant one, what is this nonsense you are talking about
"official" sponsoring of rapes ib Mumbai. Where is this
"official" raping going on. Surely, if it is official, then
you must have come accross some official sanctions, that
X is supposed to rape Y. Soumitra, this time you sank too
low.
On a rather parallel note, have you ever cared to note
the following:
a) Rape charges against Taslimuddin. YOur own Indrajit Gupta
is tactitly silent over the whole issue. Why? Incidently,
this rascal has raped women from all classes. High and
low, left and right, majority and minority. Tribal and
non-tribal.
b) Remaining silent over the huge number of rapes of Uttarakhand
women.
c) Open killing of several leftist leaders in Bihar by a now Muslim
MP, immediately prior to recent Lok Sabha elections.
Obviously, you will like to be silent, since your ideology
binds you to do so. That is what exactly happened, when
Bengal separated, and that is what you do, when Hindus get
kicked out day and night from B'desh.
: Almost all the democratic ways were getting over when
: somehow they have managed to remove the 22 years of militarism and
: fanatic governance. This process was started actually by Sheik Mujib
: himself when he cowed down to Saudis.But with his killing the downfall
: of the Hindus and the intellectuals started. It was as a matter of fact
: the common people who took all the pains to safe-guard the Hindus to
: the extent they can .
You speak too much. Yet, your posts are contradictory in themselves.
Sheikh is supposes to be cowed down by Saudis. That should naturally
make him closer to an Islamic purist. Yet, Hindus were relatively
better under him. Obviously, there is a contradiction here. Then,
you say, that people have protected Hindus. All this mumble jumble
and you have not yet been able to explain, the exodus of Hindus
and Buddhists from B'desh. And yet, you are of course an intellectual.
Keep on dreaming, and playing the fiddle. The day, when this
kicking out of Hindus in Calcutta itself, will occur, is not
too far, if you and your cohorts keep on having their way.
: The second thing I have seen many rational
: bengalees here gulping the BJP propagandas , when the surface is dug
: they accept that they had been following a dangerous track of
: hate-mongering and feel ashamed , but they reacted , even during the
: aftermath of BAbri many leftists became Hindu fanatics for a short
: while , later on they all calmed down and followed theri consciousness,
: tickling someone on the question is the easiest Satanic act one can do
: ,It is even easier to sway a muslim by saying Islam Khatre me hain ,
: exactly similarly BJP says now "Bangal me Dharm ko Buri khatra paida
: hui hain" , every one knows no religion is so nubile to be in danger so
: easily , but that is exactly the weapon of the hate -mongers , fear is
: their commodity and hate is their service . So
O Soumitra. Bengal mein khatra hai. It is already there.
It has been there since quite some time. If it is not
there, then it is in your dreams. An Upanishadic dream,
where you chose to ignore reality. Ignore the exodus.
Ignore the partition of Bengal. Ignore the riots of the
1900-1947 years. Ignore the riots of 1996. Ignore the
issue of illegal immigrants, sitting right below the
Writers' Bldg. All this off course does not exist, since
you can chose to look at the facts in the way you want
them to be. Keep on dreaming. Like a Nero. You still have
time to enjoy. So why not !!!
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4rovr3$j...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> soum...@ix.netcom.com(Soumitra
What ever your idology, It does not seems to work. I do not
challenge the noble standards of your idology and viewpoint, but as
they have not bring any result, it is waste. Just like the Gandhism did
not work, your ideas( based on the communism ) have prove ineffective
to provide security to banglalee hindus in two bengals. Ample evdences
have been provided to you that there is a well planned and organized
effort to eliminate hindus from bangladesh.
What revolutionary activites have you participated in???? Probabily
you are from one of families of traitor who supported division of
Bengal????? If you are so much concerned about the bengalee muslims,
why do not you return to India and do something for bengalees muslims(
who rejuvenated your life ) so that they stay in bangladesh and do not
dick around in Northern and Western India. The problem is that the
bangladeshi basterd muslims are not staying in bengal around the
SOUMITRAS house but are coming to far off places like Delhi and Mumbai
to create problems for North and western indians. Soon they will conver
south india also. I must make it know to every one that the ASSAM is
almost gone to Bngladesh. Why dont you import to USA, so that the
poverty of Bengals can be tackeled.
> They do not understand the value of sacrifice , they do not
>understand the value of camaraderie in fighting an institution.
If you understand the value of Camaraderie in fighting, what the
hell your are doing in USA ??? Some poster asked last time why did not
you go to Patrik Lulumba University or University of Moscow. You must
be knowing that your comerades did not vote for COMRADE Gennady
Zyuganov, he lost the presidential elections in Russia to Boris Yeltsin
with heavy margin.
Resutls:
Boris Yeltsin 54%
Gennady Zyuganov.40%
Against both 5%.
Man keep your comarderi wiht you. YOu know what did Gennady
Zyuganov said after defeat, that he is still force in Russian politics.
He is blind like you who did not see that 60% Russians have rejected
Gennady Zyuganov and communism. Boris Yeltsin , the pro reform
candidate won with huge margin of 14%. So I will advise you to forget
your communist teachings.
And also inspite of all your allegations about BJP, which is just
an opinion of your prejudiced mind ( becuase you have not produced any
evidence so far TO prove ANY OF YOUR allegatoins. ) I hope you will
come up wiht one soon. Let me sum up your allegations.
1. North Indians are responsible for the islamic terror in tow Bengals.
2. There is no Islamic terrorism in two bengals and the muslims do not
maltreat hindus. Please support your argument with documented
evidences.
If you are unable to do anything , keep out of this issue. Learn to
accept that you are ignorant of anything. Remember, Ignorance is not
bad but the dishonesty is.
have fun. .......
>the extent they can . The second thing I have seen many rational
>bengalees here gulping the BJP propagandas , when the surface is dug
>they accept that they had been following a dangerous track of
>hate-mongering and feel ashamed , but they reacted , even during the
>aftermath of BAbri many leftists became Hindu fanatics for a short
>while , later on they all calmed down and followed theri
consciousness,
After a looooooong time i see that you have accepted something true.
Yes, most of the bengalis understand the concept of hindutva. In fact,
I personally feel the we can call VIVKENANDA as father of HINDU
RESURGENCE. Was not VIVEKANANDA an unspoilt ( by communism)
bangalee?? I can understand the pain of your heart that the the
Communists are at decline in Bengal as they are in any other part of
the world. Well it is good for bengal and country but not good for
leftist intellectual and politicians who make living by bashing
HINDUTVAA. It will be really frustrating for you to know that that
Left parties have been unable to recruits fresh cadres to their
idology. I fear that with in next 4-5 years who will be the leaders of
LEFT PARTIES as there membership is decling day by day.
Not only that, by participating in the present UF government, the
LEFT PARTEIS have begin to compromise on their communist idology for
example by accepting CAPTALISTIC MARKET ECONOMY ( which unfortunatley
produces two class of people, rich and poor- what do you say ).
And if theses trends point something, they day is not very far when
the LEFTIST comrade will join SAFFORON BRIGADE. How nice it will be to
see some comerades in SHAKHAS???
babu ramabadran.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4rp1f5$1...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
soum...@ix.netcom.com(Soumitra Bose) writes:
>
>Holy Toledo!!! So much verbage only with the most important deliberate
>substitution of Islam with some invadors who happened to have taken
the
>name of Islam? What a wonderful way of distortion of Swami
>Vivekandanda/ Dis-information is now an art with BJP.
I am reposting what I posted few days back to support my contention
that ISLAM WAS FORCED ON HINDUS BY SWORD. You have pointed it many
times that the ISLAM was not INVADED in bengals but was brought by
SUFI-SAINTS. Therefore please read it again to know HOW SUFI SAINTS
SPREAD ISLAM IN BENGAL and they helped the ISLAMI INVADORS by
aleanating hindus to HINDUISM . So take your words back that the ISLAM
WAS NOT INVADED IN BENGAL.
SUFI CULTS
===========
Saints, traders and soilders were the agent of the Islamic expansion
in South Asia. These three categories are sometime difficult to
distinguish. Sufi centres were at the same time centere of religion,
trade and political power. In the costan areas, the Arab traders from
the Persian Gulf were first to introduce islam , while Turkish armies
brought Islam in the North. Whether the expansion was via trade or
conquest, the Sufi saints were however the first to explore the
frontier. Sufi Saints do not refer to something as vague as "ISLAMIC
MYSTICS" , but to brotherhood(tariqat) of people by vow of allegiance
to a saint(pir), who claims to belong to a spiritual lineage going back
to the founder of the brotherhood and ultimately to the Prophet
Mohammad himslef. Most brotherhood were founded outside SOUTH ASIA in
places like Baghdad.
The expansion of the Sufi brotherhood was crusial aspect of the
islamization of the South Asia, since the Sufism was largely
coextensive with the islam until ninteenth century. This expansion
always had MILLITARY ASPECT. The south Asian landscape is studded with
the shrines of the warriors SUFIS who were revered as the religious
soldiers ( ghazi) and martyrs ( shahid). Sufi saints were the leaders
of the Millitary bands, made up of there spiritual disciples. There
were constantly engaged in millitary combat with non-muslims,but they
also fought among themselves in the frontier areas of the Islamic
millitary and political expansion. Richard Eaton observes that the
warrior sufis disappeared from the stage when the muslm state was
firmly established. We have evidences from the eighteenth century North
India that the millitary bands of fakirs continued to exist, collecting
tribute by force, until they were wiped out by the Britisher in the
begining of the ninteent century. There is a little reasons to support
the Eatons argument that the " warrior sufis appeared only briefly in
the subcontinents islamic frontier, being the product of unique
historical circumstances. The disappearence of the Sufi Warriors may be
credited partly to the assimilative character of the Hindu
Civillizatioin, which has usually succeeded in modifying if not fully
absorbing many foreign elements that have been introduced in the
subcontinent and partly to establishment of mid 14th century
Indo-Muslim stable states.
Muslim state formation and SUFI expansion can be seen as
dialectically connected. Often it was SUFIS who penetrated in the
"tribal areas" and established the centers of healing and spiritual
powers, long befor the muslim states were established. Sufi fakirs were
wild men who controlled the power of wilderness, of the forest. These
sufis converted large group of people of form of ISLAM. Especially in
Punjab and East Bengal, the sufi centres were eminently successful.
When the armies were able to incorportate these areas into a realm
under the muslim King, the new rulers inevitably sought assocaition
wiht the preestablihsed sufi centres to obtain legitmacy and the
crucial support.
[[[. extracted from "RELIGIOUS NATIONALISM-hindus and muslims in India"
by
Peter Van der Veer,
Published by UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORINA PRESS, Berkeley-94720
isbn 0-520-08220-6
Author is Professor of Comparative Religioin at the University of
Amsterdam...]]
So SOUMITRA DO NOT HARP every now and then that advent of ISLAM was
peaceful in India;
BEngalees are at
>least (including the Muslim ones) magnanimous enough not to equate the
>Bargis(the Maratha looters ) with KAli or Hinduism in-spite of the
fact
>that they did all their looting,arson and killing shouting MA Bhabani.
>That is the difference in power of syncretism and hate-mongering.
Also for your information, most of the bengali are not like you. In
fact most of the bengalis will prefere to identify themselves wiht
Vevekananda than with MN ROY. The following news item will help you
understand it.
Calcutta June 14: Various social, religious, professional and
voluntary organizations of WEST BENGAL accorded a warm reception to
the former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee at a public meeting held
by the STATE UNIT of BJP as Esplanade in Calcutta on June 14. According
to reports recieved from calcutta it was biggest rally the metropolis
has witnessed in its history. Addressing the huge gathering he said
that the ruling Left Front is getting isolated wiht masses due to its
anti-people policies. He said that the "bankruptcy" of the Communists
was exposed when the accepted the Common Minimum Programme. The fronts
agenda resembled the Congress which the Communists abhorred, he
pointed out. He wondered, how when 25 Congressmen had been killed by
CPI(M) in post poll voilence in the state, decided to sit on the same
side of fence in Parliament. He alleged the West Bengal Government had
taken no steps against infiltration into the state and called for a
national consensus on the issue of countrys security and development.
According to "THE TELEGRAPH", an english daily from Calcutta, CPM
leaders were at loss to explain how the BJP managed to organize such a
massive rally at a short notice without much publicity.
Coupled wihtthe huge turnout, Vajpayees diatribe must have set
warning bell ringing in the red bastion. For clearly, Vajpayee did
manage to strike right chord in the Left stronghold. It is apperant
that the Congress is no longer the only threat to LEFT FRONT in West
Bengal. Atal Behari Vajpayees visit to Calcutta clearly demonstrated
that the BJP in WB has finally come of age.
( from the 'ORGANISER' New Delhi, June30, 1996)
So SOMITRA BOSE: get prepared for next time when you visit
Calcutta , do not be alarmed by SAFFORAN colour in sky of
Calcutta...........
Regards
Babu Ramabadran
Supratik Das
On 4 Jul 1996, S Bhattacharyya wrote:
> Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
> >On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Mariam Ispahani wrote:
> >> Durgesh Hajela wrote:
> Lets assume for a minute that Mariam is an Indian. In that
> case why do you gentlemen hold her responsible for events in Pakistan
> and Bangladesh ? Charity does begin at home, and if she is an Indian
> then her home is in India, not Bangladesh or Pakistan.
> I have often noticed Hindu zealots attempt to hold Indian
> Muslims reponsible for events that have happened in other Islamic
> countries, and personally speaking, I find this quite distasteful.
> Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Indian Muslims, who chose to
> stay in India at the time of the Partition, now feel so isolated from
> the mainstream that they go out and cheer for Pakistan during
> India-Pakistan cricket matches ?
I don't think there is any reason to hold Miriam's generation of Indian
Muslims responsible for the demise of Hindus and Hinduism in
Pakistan/Bangladesh. However, as the main support bases of the Muslim
League were U.P., Bihar, Bengal, Gujarat and Punjab and as significant
portion of the Muslim population of these regions, who were the most
vigorous supporters for creation of Pakistan, remained in India, I do hold
these Muslims along with the Congress and Communists as to conspiring to
displace millions of refugees like us from our ancestral lands, not to
mention the millions who were killed or raped. I think my point is well
made. The Muslim elite has been very shrewd, they have preached hatred
wherever they could manage to control the affairs of state and have
shedded crocodile tears in favor of secularism wherever they are in a
minority. Thus, whereas Miriam shudders at the suggestion of Amitabh, she
conveniently forgets the fate of the 10-20 million Hindus who have been
displaced from Bangladesh and who live utterly miserable lives in the
shantytowns of Nadia, Bongaon, etc. and who were driven away by her own
brethen. I am yet to come across a single Bangladeshi Muslim who has
shown regret at the fate of their fellow Bengalies....albeit Hindus and
suggest that their Govt. should have taken proper steps to ensure their
safe and sure return to their ancestral homelands. Instead Ms. Miriams
brethen in Bangladesh (please don't take personally) still continue
with the Enemy Property Act wherein Muslim use fear tactics, e.g.
murder or rape to snatch away land and leave entire Hindu families
homeless and destitute overnight. I think the statement 'charity begins
at home' was apt and Santanu has failed to grasp its significance. Here,
I am questioning her conscience.
> Regards,
> Santanu
Regards,
Supratik.
ind...@iastate.edu
In article <4rp0k7$m...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <4rgv2n$o...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari)
>>Nachiketa Tiwari
>>
>>=====================================================
>>750 Tall Oaks Drive 118 Patton Hall
>>Apt. # 3600 I Virginia Tech
>>Blacksburg, VA 24060. Blacksburg, VA 24061.
>>(540)-951-3979 (540)-231-4611
>>=====================================================
>
>-mongers are no human beings , the fact that the historicism of
>Jadunath,Benoybabu and to an extent Ramesh babu in bengal and the new
>breed of historians have come up (I know for a fact not one of them are
>LF protagonists) shows how and where the general people's consciousness
>is going (even when they do not like social-fascists ). ANyway to
>bengalees rape is the most henioous crime not to be pardoned or
>expected to be recouped .
To which community is rape acceptable crime? what defines a bengali?
Someone who is bengali by birth but lives elsewhere, someone who is not
bengali by birth but has been brought up in bengal, someone who is
bengali by birth AND has been broughtup in bengal?
We cannot support reaction-rapists either.
>PRobably one single reason why BJp has lost all his hope in Bengal
>after what they did in Mumbai. We have got a complete report of that in
>the grand narrative and grand reportage (a best seller) "ekti dangar
>protibedon" by Debesh Roy.
Well, recent reception that ABV got in calcutta at a very short notice
speaks otherwise.
--
ind...@iastate.edu
In article <4rp10n$c...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>exposure, I am sure that the Muslims themselves will
>>acknowledge what is already out there, and this in turn
>>could trigger reform from inside. I consider this exercise
>>as important, since there are crores of Muslims in India,
>>and their state of affairs is critical to the growth of
>>India.
>
>How Come I find Many Bd muslims supporting us Wbengalees and are
>sincerely repentant of what the government and the goons are doing to
>the Hindus ,Boudhas and Cristians there in Bd , but I do not find a
>single BJP opposing or denigrating the grand rape of Muslim girls in
>the name of Hinduism or the burning of Sikhs in Delhi that too in the
>name of Hinduism . Why do you have to bring in Hinduism in all these
>about which you guys probably know not too much.
If you read discussion on 1984 riots, you would have found BJP
supporters condemning 1984 riots. These discussions were carried out on
sci about 2 months ago. About that rape of muslim girls, please site
some references of the newspapers (not books). Also, would you acre to
condemn the rape of hindu girls in the numerous riots that breakout in
Delhi, specially old Delhi, or is it that hindu women are not worthy of
any respect or sympathy.
--
tanvir s chowdhury
WHAT FANTASY YOU PROJECT ABOUT ISLAM! The point is for all to work
together, not by divide and rule like out ex-masters have taught us. Thanks!
TS
Soumitra Bose
>a) Rape charges against Taslimuddin. YOur own Indrajit Gupta
> is tactitly silent over the whole issue. Why? Incidently,
> this rascal has raped women from all classes. High and
> low, left and right, majority and minority. Tribal and
> non-tribal.
>
Is Taslimuddin not being indicted? Oh! after every such criminal the
home minister has to run just because he is a muslim r what?
>b) Remaining silent over the huge number of rapes of Uttarakhand
> women.
>
>c) Open killing of several leftist leaders in Bihar by a now Muslim
> MP, immediately prior to recent Lok Sabha elections.
>
I am fully aware of the leadership of Uttarakhand movment from Bist
downwards and I know too which organisation they belong too, I know too
who (the government and UP PAC ) raped them and what has been the
result.If you do not know these internal informations please get them
from the local BJP, find out the political organisation they are
affialted to on individual basis , and stay amazed.
>Obviously, you will like to be silent, since your ideology
>binds you to do so. That is what exactly happened, when
>Bengal separated, and that is what you do, when Hindus get
>kicked out day and night from B'desh.
>
>: Almost all the democratic ways were getting over when
>: somehow they have managed to remove the 22 years of militarism and
>: fanatic governance. This process was started actually by Sheik Mujib
>: himself when he cowed down to Saudis.But with his killing the
downfall
>: of the Hindus and the intellectuals started. It was as a matter of
fact
>: the common people who took all the pains to safe-guard the Hindus to
>: the extent they can .
>
>You speak too much. Yet, your posts are contradictory in themselves.
>Sheikh is supposes to be cowed down by Saudis. That should naturally
>make him closer to an Islamic purist. Yet, Hindus were relatively
>better under him. Obviously, there is a contradiction here. Then,
>you say, that people have protected Hindus. All this mumble jumble
>and you have not yet been able to explain, the exodus of Hindus
>and Buddhists from B'desh. And yet, you are of course an intellectual.
>
I knew this would be your reaction, you do not (by definition being a
BJP ) understand the difference between Government and institutional
efforts and people's own efforts .Any mention of people's own effort
goes against the fanatic methodolofy everywhere in the
world(Fundamentalism Observed).
>Keep on dreaming, and playing the fiddle. The day, when this
>kicking out of Hindus in Calcutta itself, will occur, is not
>too far, if you and your cohorts keep on having their way.
>
Not a bad topic to dream though , would make a fantastic topic for
dream-thrillers, but one thing may be more imminent, the stupidities of
BJP/JAmaat might soon make the non-bengalee population of Calcutta an
easy target of eviction , that would even more horrendous .
Thanks for that , it proves that we are ok with that "Khatra" , at
least we have the guts and balls to live with it peacefully and have
the preparation whenever any problem comes we know how to tackle
that.After the BAbri the world's longest human chain from Goshaba to
darjeeling . "Banglar Mati Durjoy Ghanti , Bujhe nik Durbritto"....
>--
>Nachiketa Tiwari
>
Soumitra Bose
all too commie trashes . Debesh Roy's book is a compilation of his
reportings in Ajkal from february 1993 to June 1993 .He stood beside
all of them offering sources in a Calcutta report against a BJP led
move.
Who said no one opposes Hindu girls getting raped? But how long shall
we show a number of Hindu girls getting raped to justify or hoodwink
the organized rape by police-ShivSena goons in the Dharavi and MAndi
Bustees and would say oh! good tit for tat.
Soumitra Bose
In <4rrqph$n...@news.iastate.edu> ind...@iastate.edu () writes:
>
>In article <4rp0k7$m...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
A Bengali is one who concerns oneself with the
problems,culture,civilisaion,history and uniqueness of Bengal and is
proud of that, he/she can reside anywhere and does not really matter
what language he/she speaks but of course tries to pick up the language
and civilisation.
If 1% of the non-bengali speaking baanias support the ABV the number is
not too small .
Rajiv Varma
In article <4rovr3$j...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
Soumitra Bose <soum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[....]
>This is the problem of a group of North -Indians . Why do I say only A
>group , because of the following
> tHE UPPER-CASTE Hindu North-Indians do have within them a not so
>tiny group who have not taken part in any revolutionary movement
>(liberation movement or otherwise) but enjoys all the benefits which
>
phhhhhhh .... :-)
Soumitra Dada, looks like is again on the naxalite hallucinogen. Okay ....
- Who fought the First War of Independence?
From Siege of Lucknow Residency, to the Battle of Neemuch, Meerut,
Gwalior, Delhi, Bithoor, Allahbad, etc. etc. ???
(In fact it looks like Soumitra dada's bugbears fought the only organized
military struggle against the mlechha British nincompoops on Indian soil!)
- Where was the headquarters of the Hindusthan Republican Army?
*******************
BTW, Soumitra Dada, if few questions were asked from me, my answer would
have been India and the Indians. The simpleton and rustic in me never see
Indians fighting for the motherland as belonging to various linguistic
groups or caste groups.
U know India relishes its diversity but it is not a public corporation
whose stocks can be bought and sold by any group of people. All the
languages and culture make up the identity of Mother India, but these
individual components cannot break away from the Mother, and survive as
independent entities. Just like the human body is composed of distinct
parts which have their own identities. The human body looks beautiful that
way. But if the Arm, Leg, or the Stomach decide to "secede" from the human
body, is it possible? Human body will not survive w/o any of its parts,
and the parts have no meaning on their own.
Hope you "revolutionary" minds comrehends this idea of "covalent"
relationship between the body parts and the human body ......
--
regards,
Rajiv
Fatima Ibrahim Al-Shirawi
BABU RAMABADRAN (bab...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: 1. Ban quran in india.
Ever heard of fascism?
: 5. The head clergy should issue a guarantee that the Mosques will not
: be used for storage of any kind of arms. In case of any arm seized form
: the mosques, the cleargy will be personaly responsible for it and will
: be punishable.
Umm . . . there's no clergy in Sunni Islam.
: I hope that these measures will help to check the islamic terrorism to
: some extent in india.
The only thing which such draconian measures will check is
democracy . . . you know . . . that word which prevents the
state from misusing it's power to any appreciable extent.
Lesson for today: Look up the words 'clergy', 'fascism'
and 'democracy' in the dictionary.
Saif Al-Shirawi.
BABU RAMABADRAN
In <4rsfs4$6...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
soum...@ix.netcom.com(Soumitra Bose) writes:
>
>
>>a) Rape charges against Taslimuddin. YOur own Indrajit Gupta
>> is tactitly silent over the whole issue. Why? Incidently,
>> this rascal has raped women from all classes. High and
>> low, left and right, majority and minority. Tribal and
>> non-tribal.
>>
>
>Is Taslimuddin not being indicted? Oh! after every such criminal the
>home minister has to run just because he is a muslim r what?
Comerade Soumitra!!!
The point is that why all this hue and cry is made after the press
and media exposed the true face of criminals like TASLIMUDDIM. Why
Taslimuddin was take into minsitry or even he was given janta dal
ticket?? Couldnt Janata DAL find any better muslim candidate than
this?? Also how muslim could dare to vote lowly person like
Taslimuddin??? Is that the standard of muslim voter. And also what the
comerade Jyoti Basu, Inderjit Gupta and Harkishen Singh Srujeet doing??
Why are not they demanding to drop taslimuddin from Minstry?? Is it a
part of communist ideology to support criminals like Taslimuddin??
Also, do not you think that Taslimuddin is typical of Muslims like
Menon Brothers, Hazi Mastan, Shurawardi Khan etc.
For you information, muslims are 12% of the indian population, but
are responsible for 60 % of the henious crimes in India. They are best
drug peddeler, arm dealers, pimps etc. Muslims must develop and join
indian mainstred. They should not follow leaders like Taslimuddin,
Kalimuddin Shams etc.
>
>
>>b) Remaining silent over the huge number of rapes of Uttarakhand
>> women.
>>
>>c) Open killing of several leftist leaders in Bihar by a now Muslim
>> MP, immediately prior to recent Lok Sabha elections.
>>
>
>I am fully aware of the leadership of Uttarakhand movment from Bist
>downwards and I know too which organisation they belong too, I know
too
>who (the government and UP PAC ) raped them and what has been the
>result.If you do not know these internal informations please get them
>from the local BJP, find out the political organisation they are
>affialted to on individual basis , and stay amazed.
Comerade Soumitra: Why dont you expose the internals of the Uttrakhand
Movement??? Dont we deserve to share that information?? Please explain
how that internal information justifies the rape of women by police ???
Comerade I feel that you will rise above the occasion and please let us
know what is so secret about the Uttarakhand Movement.
Comerade Soumitra::: Please do not degress from the topic... Please
expalin exodous of large number of hindus and buddhists from benign
Bangladesh???? Plese do not cover this simple question wiht your
convoluted logic.
>
>>Keep on dreaming, and playing the fiddle. The day, when this
>>kicking out of Hindus in Calcutta itself, will occur, is not
>>too far, if you and your cohorts keep on having their way.
>>
>
>Not a bad topic to dream though , would make a fantastic topic for
>dream-thrillers, but one thing may be more imminent, the stupidities
of
>BJP/JAmaat might soon make the non-bengalee population of Calcutta an
>easy target of eviction , that would even more horrendous .
Comerade soumitra :: It looks like you are jealous of non-bengalee
hindus. To overcome this feeling of
inferriority/inadequacy/frustration in your mind and heart, I will
advice you to think positive. Think modern. If you stick to failed
theories of communism and Gandhism , you will always be like that???
Why do you think that the non-bengalees are superior than bengalees ???
I have been observing that you are very much concerned with the
presense of non-bengalees in calcutta??? Do you think how many
bengalees are living out of bengal in places all over the india. City
of Delhi had places like Bengalee Market. Go anywhere Lucknow,
Varanasi, Kanpur, Chandigarh , Bhopal, Bombay ............x,y,z, city
of india, You can find tons of bengalees living there???? They are so
happy that they do not want to return to bengal.
The idea here to emphasize is that you are giving false
thereats/arguments to apologize for muslims.??? I think if bengalee are
asked to leave all other parts of India, ( as you want the calcutta to
evacuate non-bengalees), you will need another calcutta to provide
shelter to them....
I do not want to fight for trivial regional prides, I have lived
in different part of india ( and have visited calcutta couple of times
). I expect you to be honest..... Do not be jealous of prosperous
Marwari community of Calcutta. All those Kanauria, Poddars, Jaiswals
are hard worker and therefore they have some material wealth wiht them.
They never asked anyone to stop working. If you are really jealous of
them, work hard and also your muslim friends to learn from them....
People like you like communism, so that you do not have to worry
about anything, as it will be responsibilty of the government to meet
your daily needs. But communism does not ask one to become lazy.
Instead it promise people to provide wealth, but asks them to work
also. Therefore I will advice comrades like you to be hard working so
that you do not have to envy the prosperities of the hardworking
capitalistic communities. No system works without hard work. Communism
has failed in Soviet Unioin, and also in West Bengal, becuase people
have become lazy and they began to hold government responsible their
personal failures. I hope that the intellegentsia and proleteriate will
awake soon.
>>: The second thing I have seen many rational
>>: bengalees here gulping the BJP propagandas , when the surface is
dug
>>: they accept that they had been following a dangerous track of
>>: hate-mongering and feel ashamed , but they reacted , even during
the
>>: aftermath of BAbri many leftists became Hindu fanatics for a short
>>: while , later on they all calmed down and followed theri
>consciousness,
Soumitra Comerade:::; Not only the people of bengal but people all
over the india have have accepted BJP. In fact many of them repent for
not voting for it in last elections.
Also the Vivekananda , FATHER OF HINDU RENAISSANCE ( as I call
him) was proud bengali. It is very unfortunate that the people in
bengal followed alien idology of Marx instead following Vivekananda
from there home.
regards,
babu ramabadran
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Nachiketa Tiwari (nti...@vtaix.cc.vt.edu) wrote:
: Soumitra babu and his bhadra cohorts have been having sleepless
: nights to prove that Islam's entry in general has been beneficial
: to India, and Bengal in particular. So, Soumitra babu has written
: a long drone, with the aim of enlightening all of us. My present
: article is a response to his. It goes on to show that Islam,
: atleast in the Indian context, was iconoclastic, and a symbol
: to terror, killing and plunder to the average Indian in general.
: This pattern of terror was also reflected in the behavior of the
: nawabs of Bengal, and all the preceeding rulers. So, read on.
:
: Whatever I am writing, is taken from Jadunath Sarkar's book:
----------------------------------------------------------------
: "History of Bengal". Needless to say, Sarkar substantiates
-------------------------------------------------------------
: whatever he has claimed, by ample references. All the
: refs. are from Sarkar, except the first one.
If you read Joya Chatterjee's book "Bengal Divided" you will find
that Jadunath Sarkar was a communal historian. I am not surprised that
you are quoting a communal historian to justify your point. Joya
Chatterjee has pointed out how Jadunath Sarkar eulogised the British
conquest as a deliverance from alleged Muslim despotism and as the dawn
of a new era for the Bengali Hindu.
I have deleted the rest of your post for brevity. However when you
mention the warfare and the plunder and the loot, you conveniently forget
that warfare in the middle ages were not fought according to Geneva
Convention. Loot and plunder were tools employed by various people for
their gains. At a later period, Shivaji looted Surat. Later days
Maratha Peshwas did not hesistate to send their marauding Bargi into
Hindu Orissa and Western Bengal.
One of mysteries of Islam in Bengal has been the demographic distribution
of Muslims. The Muslim population (ever since the census of 1872) has
been concentrated along Eastern and Southern Bengal (largely what is now
Bangladesh). Now the Muslim invaders came by land from the west. If (as
projected) they gave everybody a choice of "your religion or your life",
then the Muslim concentration should have been highest along Western Bengal.
You have read Rafiuddin Ahmed's book "The Bengal Muslims". Please recall
the first chapter where Ahmed had provided instances of how the religious
practices at the subaltern level mingled for both Hindus ad Muslims
(Islamic preachers repeatedly lamented the fact that Muslims are
following Kufr practices).
On the Hindu side, many Hindus studied Arabic and Persian (the court
language). Raja Rammohan Roy wrote books in Farsi. His knowledge of
Islamic scriptures was so vast that many Muslim learned men used to refer
to him as Maulana. A significant part of Rammohan Roy's attempts to
purify Hinduism received it impetus from Islam.
As a culture we the Bengalis have had syncretic tendencies as well as
divisive tendencies. I, as a Bengali would like to see the syncretic
tendencies to get stronger. We can do without the hate campaign of BJP
and their Muslim counterpart the Jamat
I find it significant that in the highly symbolic Battle of Pallasey, the
generals who stood by Siraj ud daula were Mohanlal (a Hindu) and Mir
Madan (a Muslim) and the people who betrayed Siraj were Mir Jafar (a
Muslim) and Jagat Seth (a Hindu). [Please spare me long articles on
Siraj's debauchery, drinking habits and illicit sex. Siraj here is a
symbol of indigenous power in combat with the colonising British]. To end
this I shall quote from Nazrul Islam (you know he wrote ShyamaSangeets
too-devotional hymns in praise of Goddess Kali)
"Je lathite aaj tute Masjid, bhange Mandir chura
Sei lathi kaal probhate koribe shatru durga gura"
[The stick which today breaks Masjids and demolishes Temples will
tomorrow be used to demolish the fortress of the enemy].
I shall wait for that day and meanwhile I shall expose (within my limited
capacity) the absurd and mischievous arguments propounded by Hindu and
Muslim communalists.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya