white men and black women
The Devil's Advocate
Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
as opposed to WF/BM couples? It is because of one of two things,
either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
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Kaviyd
In article <3563b8ba...@news.earthlink.net>, soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK
(The Devil's Advocate) writes:
>Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
>as opposed to WF/BM couples? It is because of one of two things,
>either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
>women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
>couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
Okay, let me give it a try:
How many black men venture into areas where they are likely to meet
white women socially -- and vice versa?
How many black women venture into areas where they are likely to meet
white men socially -- and vice versa?
If the answers to these two questions are not the same, then that alone
might explain the disparity without having to suggest any lack of attraction
between races.
Kav...@aol.com
(David Knott)
Reading mail from me in a Usenet group does not grant you the
right to send me unsolicited commercial e-mail. All senders of
unsolicited commercial e-mail will be reported to their postmasters
as Usenet abusers.
inter...@my-dejanews.com
In article <3563b8ba...@news.earthlink.net>,
soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK wrote:
>
> Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
> as opposed to WF/BM couples? It is because of one of two things,
> either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
> women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
> couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
A few theories, including the ones you indicated, include:
For too long, black women and white men haven't worked together in similar
ranks within the same company. Black men and white women often have. That is
changing, however, as more and more professional black women find themselves
in environments where they are meeting and working beside more white men.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
inter...@my-dejanews.com
In article <199805190637...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
kav...@aol.com (Kaviyd) wrote:
>
> In article <3563b8ba...@news.earthlink.net>,
soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK
>
> >as opposed to WF/BM couples? It is because of one of two things,
> >either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
> >women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
> >couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
>
>
> How many black men venture into areas where they are likely to meet
> white women socially -- and vice versa?
>
> How many black women venture into areas where they are likely to meet
> white men socially -- and vice versa?
>
> If the answers to these two questions are not the same, then that alone
> might explain the disparity without having to suggest any lack of attraction
> between races.
>
> Kav...@aol.com
> (David Knott)
I would also venture a guess that more black women are less inclined to date
men other than black men, while more black men aren't. Certainly there are
those who do, and they're finally growing in numbers, but traditionally, more
black women have chosen to remain within their "race" when seeking a partner
than not. Part of that may be an assumption that white men wouldn't be
interested, when I believe many would be. For some white men, it's likely
they're unsure that a black woman would even be interested in them, therefore
they don't approach...
Jon Houts
On Mon, 18 May 1998, The Devil's Advocate wrote:
> Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
> as opposed to WF/BM couples? It is because of one of two things,
> either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
> women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
> couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
>
The only statistics I've seen on this were from the early seventies. At
that time, there were as many WM/BF couples as there were WF/BM couples.
The theory in the study that I read was that BM/WF couples were THOUGHT
to be more common because WM/BF were more likely to be rural, BM/WF were
more likely to be urban (more noticable).
Again, this info was very old.
d...@scary.scream.org
soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK wrote:
>
> Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
> as opposed to WF/BM couples?
Actually, I think it's helpful to look at trends in over time in this
case. Prior to the 1960's, there was a fairly clear social hierarchy
of white man, white woman, black man, black woman. (No, this wasn't
*right* or the way it *should* have been.)
Decennial censuses before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 actually
showed a _higher_ rate of WM/BF couples. Keeping in mind that at that
time society was prone to envisioning the man as being "in charge" of
the marriage, it's not unsurprising that most (white) people had less
of a problem with the idea of a white man being "in charge" of a black
woman than the idea of a black man being "in charge" of a white woman.
After all, white men were in charge of everything anyway.
(This mirrors historic attitudes within culturally homogenous,
patriarchial nations such as Japan, where it was quite the faux pas
for a man from another culture to marry a local girl, but not so bad
for a local man to bring in a girl from elsewhere.)
The CRA of '64 brought about a gradual change in acceptance of all
interracial couples, but (IMO) had the greatest effect (given the
societal mores above) on BM/WF couples. While WM/BF couples continued
to increase in number (as they'd been doing all along, and as they
still do), BM/WF couples underwent a "boom" of sorts in the 1970's
and 1980's. This may have been aided by increased independence on
the part of women (primarily white women, since feminism was somewhat
perceived as a "white thing").
Continuing to look at trends in the 1980's and into the 1990's, one
will see that the growth curves are beginning to converge, though -
the number of BM/WF couples isn't growing as fast as it was in the
1970's and 1980's. Eventually, I expect the rates to be pretty near
even - but probably not for another 20 or 30 years, at least.
An analogy would be two identical streams. One is dammed for many
years, and when allowed to flow, rushes forth in a great torrent
for a time, then subsides to a flow similar to that of the other
unimpeded stream.
-Dan
BadBoy3000
>
>Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
>either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
>women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
>couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
I get hit on by black women all the time, (and I often accept) so I don't think
that black women have anything against white men. Many of my white male
friends, however, simply don't see black women as acceptable romantic material.
Based on my experiences I think that it is white men who choose not to date
black women. I think if white men were to consider black women more often, the
disparity would lessen.
The one function that TV news performs very well is that when there is no news
we give it to you with the same emphasis as if it were. --David Brinkley
theblue
Remember this is just theory-talk.
Well, there is a shortage of men! Hasn't anyone noticed that? It is true.
There seem to be many more women than men, at least for white women. And,
because of integration in the schools, the black guys were there...it was a
natural thing to happen. But I do not think inter-racial dating is socially
acceptable still in our country.
White men are much more aware of what is socially acceptable. They are
always thinking of image and job and getting ahead. They usually choose a
woman who will be an asset to them in work, not a liability. And, sadly to
say, we are so race-conscious in America that a black girlfriend or wife is
not considered an asset, no matter how beautiful or intelligent she might
be.
One thing I notice though is that white guys who marry black women tend to
stay with them; and black guys do not tend to stay with white women...at
least that is what I have seen. I don't think black guys can take the
pressure they get from their families and friends.
Long-term relationships mean a lot more than sex. I also think there was a
lot more sexual experimentation between white men and black women in past
than between black men and white women...and there is a lot of curiosity
between black men and white men...perhaps some pay-back. What do you all
think?
Sincerely,
blue
BadBoy3000 wrote in message
<199805230257...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
case...@hotmail.com
Blue,
I am SOOO glad you started your opinion with "Remember this is just theory-
talk", because it was just that.
I'm a black male and I'm in my early 30's. I dated white women almost
exclusively since college. I never really gave a flying f*ck what
people/friends/family thought about it. I think one of my best qualities is
that fact that I don't try to be like everyone else. I do what makes me happy
no matter who likes it or dislikes it. Sometimes I wonder if the reason that
I continued to date white girls was the fact that it pissed some people off.
I live in Scandinavia now (I'm American), so now I really don't have to worry
about small minded people anymore.
I really wonder why people spend so much time wondering about the reasons
why there are interracial relationships, instead of leaving it alone and
getting on with their lives. In college, I met so many white girls that were
from really small towns and if they dated a black man, they were completely
disowned by their families. Today, most of the them are married to Jethros
from their hometown that get drunk every weekend and beat them. But I guess
that's better than ending up with a respectable black man that will treat
them right huh?
- Casey
In article <CDL91.2694$hk4.3...@news2.atl.bellsouth.net>,
Phil Nation
In article <199805230257...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
BadBoy3000 (badbo...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
: >as opposed to WF/BM couples? It is because of one of two things,
: >either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
: >women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
: >couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
(snip)
: Based on my experiences I think that it is white men who choose not to
: date black women. I think if white men were to consider black women
: more often, the disparity would lessen.
I tend to agree here, though I do think it is some combination of White
men not wanting to date Black women, and vice versa. That said, I'm a
White male who has many Black female friends and acquaintances... and I
think that several would be open to dating me if I asked them out, and they
weren't already with someone (as many are)...
Phil Kasiecki
--
Philip T. Kasiecki
pkas...@ieee.org
http://lynx.dac.neu.edu/p/pkasieck/
"Life is not important except in the impact it has on others' lives."
-Jackie Robinson
dmb...@connext.net
In article <6kc2ss$4kj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
case...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Blue,
>
> I am SOOO glad you started your opinion with "Remember this is just
theory-
> talk", because it was just that.
> I'm a black male and I'm in my early 30's. I dated white women almost
> exclusively since college. I never really gave a flying f*ck what
> people/friends/family thought about it. I think one of my best qualities is
> that fact that I don't try to be like everyone else. I do what makes me
happy
> no matter who likes it or dislikes it. Sometimes I wonder if the reason that
> I continued to date white girls was the fact that it pissed some people off.
> I live in Scandinavia now (I'm American), so now I really don't have to
worry
> about small minded people anymore.
> I really wonder why people spend so much time wondering about the reasons
> why there are interracial relationships, instead of leaving it alone and
> getting on with their lives. In college, I met so many white girls that were
> from really small towns and if they dated a black man, they were completely
> disowned by their families. Today, most of the them are married to Jethros
> from their hometown that get drunk every weekend and beat them. But I guess
> that's better than ending up with a respectable black man that will treat
> them right huh?
>
> - Casey
No, it's certainly not better than ending up with a respectable black man that
will treat them/us right.
Deb
Derangela
>>Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
>: >as opposed to WF/BM couples?
Being a black woman who has dated primarily white men; in my experiences and
observances that black women dating white men is much more frowned upon in the
black community. Also, just from my family history, the white women in my
brothers life have had to "prove" themselves to be cool. By this I mean that
they act more "black" than acting "white" (whatever that means). But that is
just what I have observed and experienced.
Essence, Ebony, and Jet magazines tend to do at least one major article a year
exploring this issue (and BM/WF). If anyone is interested in these articles
they might want to head to their local library or search the internet.
Spike White
case...@hotmail.com wrote:
: In college, I met so many white girls that were
: from really small towns and if they dated a black man, they were completely
: disowned by their families.
Maybe that's just what they said, b/c they just not interested in _you_?
: Today, most of the them are married to Jethros
: from their hometown that get drunk every weekend and beat them. But I guess
: that's better than ending up with a respectable black man that will treat
: them right huh?
How do you know the black guy they would have hooked up w/ wouldn't have
beaten them?
--
Spike White | | Dilbert and Drew Carey
Tivoli Systems | spike...@tivoli.com | -- separated at birth?
Austin, TX | '87 BMW K75S (motorcycle)|
Disclaimer: The guys down the hall disagree with everything I say. Guess
who speaks for the company!
The Devil's Advocate
On Mon, 25 May 1998 15:31:40 GMT, case...@hotmail.com wrote:
>I think one of my best qualities is
>that fact that I don't try to be like everyone else.
Good philosophy...walk to the beat of your own drum.
>I do what makes me happy
>no matter who likes it or dislikes it.
That could be good or bad, remember Charles Manson?
>Sometimes I wonder if the reason that
>I continued to date white girls was the fact that it pissed some people off.
If that's the case, then that's a bad reason to get involved because
you would be using these women as a means to an end.
>I live in Scandinavia now (I'm American), so now I really don't have to worry
>about small minded people anymore.
There's no small minded people in Scandinavia?
> I really wonder why people spend so much time wondering about the reasons
>why there are interracial relationships,
Isn't that what this newsgroup was created for?
>instead of leaving it alone and
>getting on with their lives. In college, I met so many white girls that were
>from really small towns and if they dated a black man, they were completely
>disowned by their families. Today, most of the them are married to Jethros
>from their hometown that get drunk every weekend and beat them. But I guess
>that's better than ending up with a respectable black man that will treat
>them right huh?
These hicks are lacking in any form of good sense. I wouldn't want to
join their families anyway.
The Devil's Advocate
On Sun, 24 May 1998 02:30:58 GMT, "theblue" <theblu...@iname.com>
wrote:
>Remember this is just theory-talk.
>Well, there is a shortage of men! Hasn't anyone noticed that?
Hell No!!! Everytime I go to a party the sex ratio seems like it's
always more guys than girls. Supposedly there are more women than men,
but don't see it.
>But I do not think inter-racial dating is socially
>acceptable still in our country.
This can vary greatly by region. Those that date interracially in
Hawaii or San Francisco will likely have a totally different
experience than those in Biloxi, MI or Tallahassee, FL.
>
>White men are much more aware of what is socially acceptable.
Maybe because in a white male dominated society, they are the ones
that have traditionally *defined* what is socially acceptable.
>They are
>always thinking of image and job and getting ahead.
So shallow, I pity them. Image and job are so unimportant in the grand
scheme, unless your job is something rewarding in some non-economic
way such as clergy, law enforcement, working for a non-profit
organisation, etc.
>They usually choose a
>woman who will be an asset to them in work, not a liability.
Whether they choose a black woman or white woman, they are using women
as objects or means to an end if their reasons are for what you stated
above.
>And, sadly to
>say, we are so race-conscious in America that a black girlfriend or wife is
>not considered an asset, no matter how beautiful or intelligent she might
>be.
Personally, I think of a wife as ideally being a soulmate and one you
have a great deal in common with and love, the last thing on earth I
could imagine marrying for is out of status.
>One thing I notice though is that white guys who marry black women tend to
>stay with them; and black guys do not tend to stay with white women...
Although I can't verify this, I suspect it is true. It's also common
to find a black man with a "white trash" woman but rarely see a "white
trash" man with a black woman.
>at least that is what I have seen. I don't think black guys can take the
>pressure they get from their families and friends.
I don't think there's that much pressure black men face from their
families, at least from everyone I've seen. Black men from my
observance tend to have a "live and let live" attitude toward IR
dating overall.
>Long-term relationships mean a lot more than sex. I also think there was a
>lot more sexual experimentation between white men and black women in past
>than between black men and white women...and there is a lot of curiosity
>between black men and white men...perhaps some pay-back. What do you all
>think?
I know that a lot of black men end up with white women because they
think they are nicer and don't have attitude problems as they feel
many black women have.
case...@hotmail.com
In article <356c5b45...@news.earthlink.net>,
soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK wrote:
>
> >I do what makes me happy
> >no matter who likes it or dislikes it.
>
> That could be good or bad, remember Charles Manson?
I was referring to relationships and lifestyle.
> If that's the case, then that's a bad reason to get involved because
> you would be using these women as a means to an end.
But my exact wording was "Sometimes I think that the reason that I
*CONTINUED*...". I didn't start dating white women for that reason. Also, it
was just a theory anyway. I have never in my life used any of these women.
Please don't generalize.
> There's no small minded people in Scandinavia?
Racism exists everywhere to certain degrees. Racism in Denmark is more towards
refugees that the Danes feel that are coming in an getting free handouts from
the government without doing a day's work. They could be from anywhere. I
personally have never had any problems.
>
> > I really wonder why people spend so much time wondering about the reasons
> >why there are interracial relationships,
>
> Isn't that what this newsgroup was created for?
Well, yes and no. I would like to see more people talk about problems or
success stories. I hate it when I see people posting messages trying to give
their one sided views on why blacks and whites mix.
> These hicks are lacking in any form of good sense. I wouldn't want to
> join their families anyway.
I'm with you!
- Casey
d...@scary.scream.org
soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK wrote:
> It's also common to find a black man with a "white trash"
> woman but rarely see a "white trash" man with a black woman.
Hey now, "white trash" men with black wives might get offended! ;)
[No, I don't qualify for that title...]
> I know that a lot of black men end up with white women because they
> think they are nicer and don't have attitude problems as they feel
> many black women have.
You can switch "black" and "white" and "men" and "women" around in
that sentence all you want, and it will still be true. :)
-Dan
d...@scary.scream.org
A while ago, there was some discussion in here of skin
tone in black women, replete with the requisite
commentary about everyone wanting the light-skinned
ones, et cetera. At that time, I mentioned that my
wife thought she was dark-skinned, and that I didn't
particularly think she was (not that I care ;) and
said that I hoped to soon have a way for others here
to offer their thoughts on whether she is, or isn't,
dark-skinned.
Therefore, I invite those who're interested to visit
the Unofficial Maisha Fan Page, at:
http://maisha.scream.org/ (browsers supporting HTTP HOST) or
http://www.scream.org/maisha/ (browsers without HTTP HOST)
(If you're not sure whether your browser supports the
HTTP HOST command, use the latter, or try the former
and if you get an e-zine instead, use the latter. :)
I apologize for the site's present Lynx-unfriendliness;
I hope to rectify that shortly.
Spike White
d...@scary.scream.org wrote:
: A while ago, there was some discussion in here of skin
: tone in black women, replete with the requisite
: commentary about everyone wanting the light-skinned
: ones, et cetera. At that time, I mentioned that my
: wife thought she was dark-skinned, and that I didn't
: particularly think she was (not that I care ;) and
: said that I hoped to soon have a way for others here
: to offer their thoughts on whether she is, or isn't,
: dark-skinned.
medium dark.
Hard to tell for sure, though; lighting can make people look much
lighter or darker in photos than in real life.
sssmm...@my-dejanews.com
In article <199805230257...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
badbo...@aol.com (BadBoy3000) wrote:
>
> >
> >Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
> >either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
> >women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
> >couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
>
think
> that black women have anything against white men. Many of my white male
> friends, however, simply don't see black women as acceptable romantic
material.
>
> black women. I think if white men were to consider black women more often,
the
> disparity would lessen.
news
> we give it to you with the same emphasis as if it were. --David Brinkley
>
Hi bad boy, it has been a long time. Do you remember me, sssmmmsss. Yes, as
you know I love black women. Although, I am always pursuing black women, I
don't find this a prevlent trait among many white men. I believe it is still
a social taboo for white men.
I must tell you something that enforces that I idea in my mind. The few times
I have been to a house of prostitution, the white guys seemed only wanted to
fuck the black girls, while the white women just sat there with no one to
tend to them. It was a venue where white men could act the way they really
felt.
The Devil's Advocate
On Sat, 30 May 1998 20:22:01 GMT, sssmm...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>I must tell you something that enforces that I idea in my mind. The few times
>I have been to a house of prostitution, the white guys seemed only wanted to
>fuck the black girls, while the white women just sat there with no one to
>tend to them. It was a venue where white men could act the way they really
>felt.
You ought to read the autobiography of Malcolm X. In his youth days as
a pimp, he told of how white men would ask for dark skinned black
women. And how sometimes, they would just request to watch two black
people have sex and they would get their jollies that way.
DBCANNONS
Do you mean this to indicate that white men are lacking confidence about
"managing" a black woman?
Or, .....
Do you mean this to indicate that black women are lacking in their
"self-esteem" when it comes to managing white men?
>> (The Devil's Advocate) writes:
>>
>> >Does anybody have any theories as to why there are few WM/BF couples
>> >as opposed to WF/BM couples? It is because of one of two things,
>> >either black women don't want white men, or white men don't want black
>> >women, or both. But something must explain that of all black/white
>> >couples, only 1/4 of them are WM/BF. Any theories?
>>
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
I do not think that it is an issue of "management" at all; rather, black
women have typically been more independant than white women have been,
and for a white male who is used to dealing with white women, a black
woman can come off as being rather challenging. I do not know what the
case may be vice-versa, except to say that many of the black women that
I have talked to have told me that they feel sometimes that white men
are just trying to conquer them, but then again, so are a lot of black
men, so I don't see the difference.
--
Alexia I.K.
dmb...@connext.net
In article <357234...@yahoo.com>,
SFPL.org wrote:
>
> I do not think that it is an issue of "management" at all; rather, black
> women have typically been more independant than white women have been,
> and for a white male who is used to dealing with white women, a black
> woman can come off as being rather challenging.
> Alexia I.K.
>
>
And how is it that black women have been more independent than white women?
Believe me honey, white women are equally as independent... Let's not turn
this into a "us vs. them" dialogue... Contrary to popular stereotypes, we
white women are no "push overs" nor do we "need" a man to survive..and most of
us are equally as demanding; demanding to be treated right in a relationship.
So let's not go there...
Deb
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
I am not trying to put it as "us vs. them", but perhaps I chose my words
poorly. In place of "independant", I should have put "strong-willed".
I do not mean to imply that all white women are pushovers; however,
taken one for one, they do not seem to be nearly as vocal in thier
interperssonal relationships as black women do. Statistics show this to
be true; white women are more likelyto be in abusive relationships than
black women are, although there are plenty of black women in those types
of relationships. And besides, we are also talking about
perceptions,and while your reality may suggest that white women are just
as demanding as black women, I can tell you for a fact that there are
plenty of men on both sides of the color line who will say differently.
--
Alexia I.K.
joshua...@hotmail.com
In article <6kppo0$t1t$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>,
sssmm...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > I get hit on by black women all the time, (and I often accept)
Are you just that cool?
> >
> > Based on my experiences I think that it is white men who choose not to
date black women. I think if white men were to consider black women more
often, the disparity would lessen.
It just ain't gonna happen. There are to many nazis and conservative old
white men who only have their "southern white pride" to hold onto.
> Hi bad boy, it has been a long time. Do you remember me, sssmmmsss. Yes, as
> you know I love black women.
Why?
> I must tell you something that enforces that I idea in my mind. The few
times
> I have been to a house of prostitution, the white guys seemed only wanted to
> fuck the black girls, while the white women just sat there with no one to
> tend to them. It was a venue where white men could act the way they really
> felt.
That sounds kind of insulting. For someone who loves black women and accepts
their dates, you make it sound as if they are just their for you to "get your
shot off" Do you really respect black women or are you just one of those who
pose as the norm during the day and use black women at night?
Brojac.
sssmm...@my-dejanews.com
In article <35727b72...@news.earthlink.net>,
soca...@earthlink.netNOJUNK wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 May 1998 20:22:01 GMT, sssmm...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
times
> >I have been to a house of prostitution, the white guys seemed only wanted
to
> >fuck the black girls, while the white women just sat there with no one to
> >tend to them. It was a venue where white men could act the way they really
> >felt.
>
> a pimp, he told of how white men would ask for dark skinned black
> women. And how sometimes, they would just request to watch two black
> people have sex and they would get their jollies that way.
>
> Remove NO-JUNK to email
> <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
> "Your Warrant Is In Question"
> -=The Devil's Advocate=-
> http://surf.to/advocate
> <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
>
Malcolm X's autobiography is problably correct. I am sure many white men keep
their dark secret of wanting to fuck a black woman to themselves. I must
admit, I would enjoy watching a a dark black guy fucking a dark black woman.
As a Plantation owner wanabee, I certainly would have enjoyed that as
plantation entertainment
dmb...@connext.net
In article <357297...@yahoo.com>,
SFPL.org wrote:
>
> I am not trying to put it as "us vs. them", but perhaps I chose my words
> poorly. In place of "independant", I should have put "strong-willed".
> I do not mean to imply that all white women are pushovers; however,
> taken one for one, they do not seem to be nearly as vocal in thier
> interperssonal relationships as black women do.
I've known many white women, including myself, to be as vocal but perhaps we
are different in our approaches in some ways than black women.
>Statistics show this to
> be true; white women are more likelyto be in abusive relationships than
> black women are, although there are plenty of black women in those types
> of relationships.
Would you please cite your source?
> And besides, we are also talking about
> perceptions,and while your reality may suggest that white women are just
> as demanding as black women, I can tell you for a fact that there are
> plenty of men on both sides of the color line who will say differently.
> --
> Alexia I.K.
Well, I'll wait for the men to speak for themselves...
Deb
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>
> In article <357297...@yahoo.com>,
> SFPL.org wrote:
> >
> > I am not trying to put it as "us vs. them", but perhaps I chose my words
> > poorly. In place of "independant", I should have put "strong-willed".
> > I do not mean to imply that all white women are pushovers; however,
> > taken one for one, they do not seem to be nearly as vocal in thier
> > interperssonal relationships as black women do.
>
> I've known many white women, including myself, to be as vocal but perhaps we
> are different in our approaches in some ways than black women.
That's probably the best way to put it. White women may be as vocal,
but black women tend to be a little bit more direct in expressing
themselves. I speak from personal experiance, plus that of many men of
many colors that I have known over the years.
> >Statistics show this to
> > be true; white women are more likelyto be in abusive relationships than
> > black women are, although there are plenty of black women in those types
> > of relationships.
>
> Would you please cite your source?
As well as local law enforcement agencies keeping informal tabs, there
are also many humanitarian agencies such as shelters that house abused
women, and information that the FBI has compiled on this matter. I am
not a social worker, but I have college chums who are, and I have had
several of them tell me that, from thier personal experiances,
buttressed by the FBI and local law enforcement from San Francisco,
Washington DC and New York, white women are almost twice as likely to
enter into some sort or abusive relationship, not just physical.
> > And besides, we are also talking about
> > perceptions,and while your reality may suggest that white women are just
> > as demanding as black women, I can tell you for a fact that there are
> > plenty of men on both sides of the color line who will say differently.
> > --
> > Alexia I.K.
>
> Well, I'll wait for the men to speak for themselves...
>
> Deb
One has - me, and along with that, I have brought the thoughts and
feelings of several men that I know on all sides of the color line.
Remember, the original thread was concerning perceptions, and that is
what I was expressing.
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
--
Alexia I.K.
Michael Ejercito
In article <6kepbm$4kh$5...@tivoli.tivoli.com>, spike...@tivoli.com (Spike
White) wrote:
> case...@hotmail.com wrote:
> : In college, I met so many white girls that were
> : from really small towns and if they dated a black man, they were completely
> : disowned by their families.
>
> Maybe that's just what they said, b/c they just not interested in _you_?
Maybe.
> : Today, most of the them are married to Jethros
> : from their hometown that get drunk every weekend and beat them. But I guess
> : that's better than ending up with a respectable black man that will treat
> : them right huh?
>
> How do you know the black guy they would have hooked up w/ wouldn't have
> beaten them?
There is no way he could know,unless they hooked up with HIM.
Michael
Dan Lungren for Governor of California
Phil Nation
In article <6kunn8$bqr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
joshua...@hotmail.com wrote:
: In article <6kppo0$t1t$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>,
: sssmm...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
WARNING:: sssmmmsss is a troll.
: Do you really respect black women or are you just one of those who
: pose as the norm during the day and use black women at night?
I can assure you that the former is not the case.
Christopher Jack Nicholson
>I do not think that it is an issue of "management" at all; rather, black
>women have typically been more independant than white women have been,
>and for a white male who is used to dealing with white women, a black
>woman can come off as being rather challenging. I do not know what the
>case may be vice-versa, except to say that many of the black women that
>I have talked to have told me that they feel sometimes that white men
>are just trying to conquer them, but then again, so are a lot of black
>men, so I don't see the difference.
>--
>Alexia I.K.
>
I'll put this bluntly. Poppycock. For the record I am a Southern
White Male. I am reading this ng because my girlfriend is Chinese. I
think I hate racism just as much as the next knee-jerk liberal. I also
realize that I am racist. My theory (boy this is really blunt so
think before flaming me):
Our culture is driven by and serves white men. The ideal mate for a
white man is his business partner or football teammate. After that-
the white woman. The white woman is held up as the ideal in feminine
beauty. The media target white men, but everyone is affected. White
men, white & black women, black men, &c. &c. are affected. Therefore,
of course black men are being trained to desire white women- just like
everyone else is. Some black men will choose an ugly (remember I'm
being blunt) white woman over a beautiful black woman (something I've
never understood). An ugly white woman will go with an
average-looking or better black man because they could never get a
white man that is that attractive. It's just that simple. When I see
a white man and a black woman together it warms my heart because I
know that they are overcoming the drives of culture to be together.
They really like each other. (Perhaps not 100% true- the white man
could have a black fetish like my asian one). This wasn't very
well-written, but I think my point is clear. I was blunt because i
think many people feel the same way- they are just afraid to put it in
words. Oh, and personally (perhaps because of the training of my
culture), I just don't find, overall, black women attractive. I find
Asians, whites, sometimes even Arabs and Indians attractive. Black
women are at the bottom of my list (not that I don't think there are a
lot of _exquisite_ black women- we're talking overall here). I hope
no one is very offended. I know that racism motivated a lot of what I
said. I don't like that fact. But I also feel that there is a lot of
validity to it. We're also discussing looks here. Looks are a matter
of taste. I don't think my saying "I don't find black women
attractive" should be talen any worse than my saying, "I prefer French
Vanilla to chocolate." In any case these things, influence by culture
or not, can't be changed.
Thanks,
Chris
roz...@hotmail.com
OK Chris, thank you for your honesty. I am a southern black female, who
primarily dates white males. I too have encountered fetishism out there.
Does your girlfriend know that your relationship with her is based in a
fetish? I've always avoided guys that I considered to have "jungle fever."
Personally I find the concept to be quite insulting, though I realize that
there are others that don't mind. I'm not trying to flame you, but I am
curious as to your girlfriend's viewpoint on this issue. rozlips
joshua...@hotmail.com
In article <6l01fr$l48$1...@isn.dac.neu.edu>,
pkas...@coe.neu.edu (Phil Nation) wrote:
> I can assure you that the former is not the case.
>
> Phil Kasiecki
>
If that is the case sssmmmsss82 should clarify himself. If what he said did
not send out the point intended then he could have used a better example. It
is often that I here white men talk of other cultures as if the world is their
oyster to shuck. I am not saying this is everybody, but to a black woman you
have to meet standards that she would allow black men to slide on. It's a
free country and all, but things like S said invite people (who have less
tolerance for other people besides what they are used to) to come in and talk
about black women as if they were just prostitutes.
joshua...@hotmail.com
In article <35734...@yahoo.com>,
SFPL.org wrote:
> One has - me, and along with that, I have brought the thoughts and
> feelings of several men that I know on all sides of the color line.
> Remember, the original thread was concerning perceptions, and that is
> what I was expressing.
> > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
> --
> Alexia I.K.
>
Are all of these men dealing with black women on a regular enough basis? It's
almost like a full-time job you know.
joshua...@hotmail.com
In article <6kv0in$po6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
sssmmmsss82 wrote:
> Malcolm X's autobiography is problably correct. I am sure many white men
keep
> their dark secret of wanting to fuck a black woman to themselves. I must
> admit, I would enjoy watching a a dark black guy fucking a dark black woman.
> As a Plantation owner wanabee, I certainly would have enjoyed that as
> plantation entertainment
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
Sssmmmsss82, I see clearly now. Not to bash, but maybe you might want to also
take your opinion to alt.flame.niggers group too. It is a shame that you
speak like a one of those racists, but maybe that is the point you intend to
get across.
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
The men to which I am reffering to, as well as myself, have had several
experiances with both black and white women. I myself have dated about
50/50 black/white women, all of them lower middle-class types, most of
them with some sort of college or vocational training. The other people
that I know have had experiances with a different socioeconomic
grouping, but thier basic experiances were about on par with mine.
--
Alexia I.K.
Dan Birchall
> : At that time, I mentioned that my
> : wife thought she was dark-skinned, and that I didn't
> : particularly think she was (not that I care ;) and
> : said that I hoped to soon have a way for others here
> : to offer their thoughts on whether she is, or isn't,
> : dark-skinned.
>
> medium dark.
>
> Hard to tell for sure, though; lighting can make people look much
> lighter or darker in photos than in real life.
Thanks, Spike. :) And yeah, lighting does that. Of course,
dealing with photos taken over a period of several years, by
different people with different film and cameras and developed
by different labs, et cetera, doesn't help either. :)
For those who might be curious, I've added another 19 pictures.
-Dan
--
Dan 'Shag' Birchall, Moorestown, New Jersey. Spam delenda est.
Made possible by Cannondale, NEC, Red Hat and viewers like you.
http://www.scream.org/maisha/ - The Unofficial Maisha Fan Page.
hfur...@fcc.gov thinks spam is neato. Send it to him, not me.
dmb...@connext.net
In article <3573bb1b...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
No, it's not "just that simple" when you refer to black men and white women.
Has it not occurred to you that many white women find black men
attractive...and I'm speaking of attractive white women here as well. It is
not just a case of an unnattractive (relatively speaking) white women ending
up with a black man because she can't get an attractive white man, it's often
a case that she finds black men more appealing than white men no matter what
the white man's appearance is.. I've got to play devil's advocate here because
this stereotype that most of the white women who date/marry black men are
unnattractive is hogwash.. Look around you, there are plenty of attractive
white women with black men...and it's not because they can't "get" a white
man...
Deb
Christopher Jack Nicholson
On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:20:11 GMT, roz...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>OK Chris, thank you for your honesty. I am a southern black female, who
>primarily dates white males. I too have encountered fetishism out there.
>Does your girlfriend know that your relationship with her is based in a
>fetish? I've always avoided guys that I considered to have "jungle fever."
>Personally I find the concept to be quite insulting, though I realize that
>there are others that don't mind. I'm not trying to flame you, but I am
>curious as to your girlfriend's viewpoint on this issue. rozlips
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Thanks for not flaming me. I was afraid people would think I was a
member of the KKK because of the way I was talking. They don't know
what kind of hell I've been through with my racist family. Of course,
I realize that even that hell is nothing compared to the hell of
actually being African-American (in other words I'm not trying to make
myself out as a hero or martyr). Jenny (Liaw Guang Hui) knows that I
prefer asian women. Actually both of us are bi (I prefer white men).
It's really not a very strong fetish. She was a virgin when we met
and still hasn't been with a woman. She is 19 and I am 27 and have
been around a little- but I have only had long-term relationships with
two white girls. I'm still attracted to women of every race- just
most strongly to asians. She doesn't seem to mind. She knows I like
her for her as well- despite that the initial attraction for me was
that she was asian. I suppose I have "yellow fever" but it's not
really and issue in my present relationship. I understand how it
could be insulting, but I can't help what I am attracted to. I guess
I have just come out of the closet as an asiaphile and I need some
time to learn to live with it better and how to learn to have some
tact with it. Thanks for trying to understand. Can I ask you, and
other African-American women as well, whether or not you can
sympathize with what I said in my last post somewhat because you have
resentment for the black men (let's remember that there are a lot of
them, but they are by no means a majority) who seem to prefer _any_
white woman to _any_ black woman? I suppose I could ask a similar
question of asian men? How do you feel about the amount of asian
women who seem to prefer white men? I think these are very important
issues that need to be addressed.
Thanks,
Chris
mod
In article <199806010215...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, dbca...@aol.com (DBCANNONS) wrote:
>
>
>
>Do you mean this to indicate that white men are lacking confidence about
>"managing" a black woman?
> Or, .....
I think it's probably because white men have small dicks
mod
><alexiaivonov...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I do not think that it is an issue of "management" at all; rather, black
>>women have typically been more independant than white women have been,
>>and for a white male who is used to dealing with white women, a black
>>woman can come off as being rather challenging. I do not know what the
>>case may be vice-versa, except to say that many of the black women that
>>I have talked to have told me that they feel sometimes that white men
>>are just trying to conquer them, but then again, so are a lot of black
>>men, so I don't see the difference.
>>--
>>Alexia I.K.
>>
I find Tyra Banks incredibly attractive
mod
I'd suppose it sucks when the other sex of your ethnicity primarily dates
other races. Sort of reduces the gene pool.
Christopher Jack Nicholson
On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:38:20 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>In article <3573bb1b...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
> +nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
>>
>> I
>No, it's not "just that simple" when you refer to black men and white women.
>Has it not occurred to you that many white women find black men
>attractive...and I'm speaking of attractive white women here as well. It is
>not just a case of an unnattractive (relatively speaking) white women ending
>up with a black man because she can't get an attractive white man, it's often
>a case that she finds black men more appealing than white men no matter what
>the white man's appearance is.. I've got to play devil's advocate here because
>this stereotype that most of the white women who date/marry black men are
>unnattractive is hogwash.. Look around you, there are plenty of attractive
>white women with black men...and it's not because they can't "get" a white
>man...
>
>Deb
>
Ok, you're right. It's not just that simple. But it almost is. Yes,
there are plenty of white women who simply prefer black men- just the
way that I prefer asian women. It's not that I can't get a white
woman- I've had plenty. But a very large number of white women that
have relationships with black men are fat-ass white trash. Fat-ass
white trash with relatively decent-looking black men. If you don't
believe me then watch Jerry Springer. I look at the couple and say to
myself, "That guy is with her just because she's white." It's
pathetic. I know that if I were black I would date some of the
luscious black women out there before I would date these creatures.
If I wanted to date white women I wouldn't settle for the white man's
leftovers. I'd date one of those women that Deb is talking about.
Yes, you're right Deb. The women you are talking about do exist. But
there are a _great_ many more of the women that I am talking about.
Sincerely,
Chris
Derangela
>I think it's probably because white men have small dicks
Oh yeah, that John Holmes his dick was waaay tooo small for my taste. A friend
of mine was dating this black guy and when they finally got to their first
sexual encounter she said she looked at his penis and was shocked by how small
it was. And she's got a small entrance. Most men of average size hurt her
because of some surgey she had. But she broke up with him (they're still
friends though) because she couldn't feel anything (well that was one of the
reasons).
And I was sort of seeing this guy (white) and when I put my hand on his penis I
nearly lept out of the car it was so large!!! Actually I never callled him
again because I was afraid of the damned thing. Of course that was then, now I
wish I had kept his number I keep dreaming about it.
And my first boyfriend (white) had the biggest dick I've had yet.
My point (no pun intended), is that we can make all of the generalisations we
want. But I feel that there is a fine line between generalizing and prejudice.
It's probably how racist ideas got started - "Well you know how they are...."
Jon Houts
On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Christopher Jack Nicholson wrote:
> Ok, you're right. It's not just that simple. But it almost is. Yes,
> there are plenty of white women who simply prefer black men- just the
> way that I prefer asian women. It's not that I can't get a white
> woman- I've had plenty. But a very large number of white women that
> have relationships with black men are fat-ass white trash. Fat-ass
> white trash with relatively decent-looking black men.
Is it really a "very large number" of "fat-ass" white women? The
interracial couples I usually see are about the same as couples of a
single race, in terms of the relative "good looks." (ie, attractive with
attractive, average with average, not-so-attractive with not-so attractive)
> If you don't believe me then watch Jerry Springer.
Couldn't get a more representative sample than that, could we?
> I look at the couple and say to myself, "That guy is with her just
> because she's white." It's pathetic. I know that if I were black
> I would date some of the luscious black women out there before I
> would date these creatures.
Assuming any of them were remotely interested in you...
> If I wanted to date white women I wouldn't settle for the white man's
> leftovers. I'd date one of those women that Deb is talking about.
> Yes, you're right Deb. The women you are talking about do exist. But
> there are a _great_ many more of the women that I am talking about.
That *may* be your observation. It's quite different from what I see.
Maybe it's a "deep-south" thing.
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
Perhaps the reason that you may see so many "fat ass slobs) of white
women with black men is not because the women could not get a white man;
maybe it is because a good percentage of black men (not a majority, but
a good numbert nonetheless) actualy PREFER a woman with some "meat on
her bones"; not all of us like the typical "Barbie" image of a white
women that is thrust upon us by the mass media!! I know personally, I
like my women to not be skinny or that athleticly built; skinny women of
all races don't appeal to EVRYONE.
--
Alexia I.K.
dmb...@connext.net
In article <357579f...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
+nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:38:20 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>
> >In article <3573bb1b...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
> > +nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
> >>
> >> I
> >No, it's not "just that simple" when you refer to black men and white
women.
> >Has it not occurred to you that many white women find black men
> >attractive...and I'm speaking of attractive white women here as well. It is
> >not just a case of an unnattractive (relatively speaking) white women
ending
> >up with a black man because she can't get an attractive white man, it's
often
> >a case that she finds black men more appealing than white men no matter
what
> >the white man's appearance is.. I've got to play devil's advocate here
because
> >this stereotype that most of the white women who date/marry black men are
> >unnattractive is hogwash.. Look around you, there are plenty of attractive
> >man...
> >
> >Deb
> >
> Ok, you're right. It's not just that simple. But it almost is. Yes,
> there are plenty of white women who simply prefer black men- just the
> way that I prefer asian women. It's not that I can't get a white
> woman- I've had plenty. But a very large number of white women that
> have relationships with black men are fat-ass white trash. Fat-ass
> believe me then watch Jerry Springer. I look at the couple and say to
> myself, "That guy is with her just because she's white." It's
> pathetic.
Oh plueeeze! You consider Jerry Springer's guests representative of most BM/WF
couples? His show and other talk shows take the worst examples to boost
ratings. These people are not true representations of the "normal" interracial
relationships out there. I cannot believe that you are that gullable.
Furthermore, are you not with Asian women "just because they're Asian?"
> I know that if I were black I would date some of the
> luscious black women out there before I would date these creatures.
Read my previous paragraph.
> If I wanted to date white women I wouldn't settle for the white man's
> leftovers. I'd date one of those women that Deb is talking about.
> Yes, you're right Deb. The women you are talking about do exist. But
> there are a _great_ many more of the women that I am talking about.
> Sincerely,
> Chris
What on earth is a white man's left overs? Let me set you straight on
something. I am attractive white woman. I attract both white and black men.
I'm intelligent, professional, ambitious, and grew up in a middle to upper
middle class household and community. All of the white women I have personally
known who have also dated/married black men (yes, I was married for 8 years to
a black man..) are of the same caliber. By no means, is your stereotype or
generalization of white women who date black men necessarily the "norm"..
There exists a perception of ANY white woman who dates/marries black men that
she is of lower caliber...or white trash...regardless of her "economic class"
or level of attractiveness. This perception is applied to any white woman
BECAUSE she is with a black man and considered, in the white community, to
have lowered her standards by doing so.
I assume from your mindset on this issue, that you (and others like you) would
likely apply this same perception to ANY white woman simply because she is
with a black man. This is a stereotype that white women have to fight.
I have NEVER nor will I EVER consider myself having lowered my standards by
being with a black man. I respect black men, appreciate black men, hold them
in high regard. Some of the black men I've known in my life achieved far more
than most white men I've known.. It's time the rest of society elevated black
men to a level many of them deserve and stop treating them categorically like
they're felons in waiting, of "lower class," and whatever other generalization
society prefers to place on them. Same goes for black women.
I get mighty tired of many of the attitudes among far too many whites. VERY
tired. I find a lot of what you said in your posts personally distasteful.
It's the smug white male attitude that I find to be SUCH a turn-off and with
respect to white women who share the same attitude, I totally disassociate
myself..
Regarding your fetish for Asian women, I must ask whether or not you actually
RESPECT Asian women or whether or not you consider them merely a sexual toy?
I'm curious.. It doesn't seem as though you have much respect for ANY woman,
regardless of her ethnicity. Much of what you say is degrading...
Deb
The Devil's Advocate
>I'll put this bluntly. Poppycock. For the record I am a Southern
>White Male. I am reading this ng because my girlfriend is Chinese. I
>think I hate racism just as much as the next knee-jerk liberal. I also
>realize that I am racist.
I read everything you said and this young black dude doesn't think
you're a racist because of it. You're simply saying what many people
probably already think but can't say as safely as they could on
usenet.
>Our culture is driven by and serves white men. The ideal mate for a
>white man is his business partner or football teammate.
I don't know about that, not all white men are rich and walking around
in business suits. Some are bagging groceries and fixing plumbing.
>After that-
>the white woman. The white woman is held up as the ideal in feminine
>beauty.
True, because we live in a majority white society of course.
>The media target white men, but everyone is affected. White
>men, white & black women, black men, &c. &c. are affected. Therefore,
>of course black men are being trained to desire white women- just like
>everyone else is.
Wow, I sent someone an email saying almost the exact same thing, just
arranged a bit differently, I'll post what I said:
You are totally right about this. It's subconsciuos. In some ways
though, black men are not at fault as much as it is the society we
live in. I am a young black man, and from the time you are born you
have the image of white female beauty crammed down your throat.
Whenever I stand in a checkout line at the supermarket, Cindy Crawford
and her types are displayed everywhere, look at tv, movies,
billboards, anywhere you go, the white woman and particularly
blond/blue eyes and busty is shown as the quintessence of beauty.
After years and years of this indoctrination, it can start to affect
you, not even necessarily consciously but subconsciously without your
even knowing it. It's a sad reality but that's the price we pay for
living in a white dominated society where all that is white is see as
good. The only way to combat this is to raise young black children
with images of black beauty and teach them to not be ashamed of their
dark skin and wooly hair, and nip this bud from the start. If young
black kids, particularly males don't have black beauty reinforced by
their parents, then whites are going to do it for them, and you know
what the result will be.
>Some black men will choose an ugly (remember I'm
>being blunt) white woman over a beautiful black woman (something I've
>never understood).
Same here. I don't know how many times I've seen a decent looking
black man with a fat or mediocre looking white woman. And I've
thought, "now I know this guy could've gotten a black woman that is a
7 or 8 so I wonder why he's with a white woman that's a 3 or 4." But
then I feel bad because I shouldn't be looking down on people that
love each other and looks in the long run really aren't important and
it's just plain mean I guess.
>An ugly white woman will go with an
>average-looking or better black man because they could never get a
>white man that is that attractive. It's just that simple.
Hah, not this one, if I ever got with a white woman, I'd at least
choose a nice looking one.
>When I see
>a white man and a black woman together it warms my heart because I
>know that they are overcoming the drives of culture to be together.
>They really like each other.
I think the same thing. I really would like to see more genuine BF/WM
couples. And not because of some fetish or for stereotypical reasons.
>(Perhaps not 100% true- the white man
>could have a black fetish like my asian one). This wasn't very
>well-written, but I think my point is clear. I was blunt because i
>think many people feel the same way- they are just afraid to put it in
>words. Oh, and personally (perhaps because of the training of my
>culture),
It is training of culture, because in actuality, beauty doesn't even
exist, it's a social construct with rules made up by the dominant
society. If there are aliens on some distant world, then perhaps their
supermodels have antenaes and green scales and they would see them as
beautiful.
>I just don't find, overall, black women attractive. I find
>Asians, whites, sometimes even Arabs and Indians attractive.
What? You left out Hispanic women ;-) But seriously, I find al the
above attractive except for Asian women and middle-American white
women.
>Black
>women are at the bottom of my list (not that I don't think there are a
>lot of _exquisite_ black women- we're talking overall here). I hope
>no one is very offended. I know that racism motivated a lot of what I
>said.
Only you could know that. But I wouldn't consider what you said racist
per se. It's all a matter of personal choice. I don't find 95% of
Vietnamese women to be attractive, but that doesn't make me a racist.
>I don't like that fact. But I also feel that there is a lot of
>validity to it. We're also discussing looks here. Looks are a matter
>of taste. I don't think my saying "I don't find black women
>attractive" should be talen any worse than my saying, "I prefer French
>Vanilla to chocolate." In any case these things, influence by culture
>or not, can't be changed.
One reason for this is that since white and particularly blond hair
and blue eyes is considered by society to be most desirable, what is
furthest from it logically would be least attractive. And blacks are
physically as far apart from whites as possible, so that's probably
your reason right there. Well, I'm not offended and thought your post
was well thought out and articulate as well as honest. It's sure
better than the shit on alt.flame.niggers!
The Devil's Advocate
>Ok, you're right. It's not just that simple. But it almost is. Yes,
>there are plenty of white women who simply prefer black men- just the
>way that I prefer asian women. It's not that I can't get a white
>woman- I've had plenty. But a very large number of white women that
>have relationships with black men are fat-ass white trash. Fat-ass
>white trash with relatively decent-looking black men. If you don't
>believe me then watch Jerry Springer.
Even though I agree with much of what you're saying Chris, I've got to
add that Jerry Springer is the last prism to view reality through. You
have to remember that his cast isn't representative of society as a
whole. The most people that will appear on his show are almost by
definition from the lower classes because they are more attracted to a
little extra money and a free trip to Chicago in a nice hotel room
simply for spouting their mouths on tv. You won't see too many
professional upper-middle class IR couples on Springer because they
simply wouldn't be interested in appearing.
The Devil's Advocate
On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:51:56 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>I have NEVER nor will I EVER consider myself having lowered my standards by
>being with a black man. I respect black men, appreciate black men, hold them
>in high regard. Some of the black men I've known in my life achieved far more
>than most white men I've known.. It's time the rest of society elevated black
>men to a level many of them deserve and stop treating them categorically like
>they're felons in waiting, of "lower class," and whatever other generalization
>society prefers to place on them. Same goes for black women.
DmBrown, if you want to become the first white female president,
you've got my vote! :-)
The Devil's Advocate
>Thanks for not flaming me. I was afraid people would think I was a
>member of the KKK because of the way I was talking. They don't know
>what kind of hell I've been through with my racist family. Of course,
>I realize that even that hell is nothing compared to the hell of
>actually being African-American (
Just a quick followup, I wouldn't call being African-American to be
hell as you put it. Racism exist and every black will run up against
it sometime, but I am not facing hell either. I still go to work, to
school, go to concerts, festivals, and sidewalk cafes, enjoy the
company of good friends, the color of the sky, etc. It's not as bad as
you might think.
roz...@hotmail.com
In article <35749026...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
+nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:20:11 GMT, roz...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>
> >OK Chris, thank you for your honesty. I am a southern black female, who
> >primarily dates white males. I too have encountered fetishism out there.
> >Does your girlfriend know that your relationship with her is based in a
> >fetish? I've always avoided guys that I considered to have "jungle fever."
> >Personally I find the concept to be quite insulting, though I realize that
> >there are others that don't mind. I'm not trying to flame you, but I am
> >curious as to your girlfriend's viewpoint on this issue. rozlips
> >
> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>
> member of the KKK because of the way I was talking. They don't know
> what kind of hell I've been through with my racist family. Of course,
> I realize that even that hell is nothing compared to the hell of
attractive (or as attractive as you do other women), I don't resent black men
who want to be with white women. Just for the record, I didn't resent them
even before I started dating IR myself. You see, I make it a policy not to be
interested in anyone who is not interested in me. So, if I see a man with
another woman, regardless of her race, they prettty much cease to exist to for
me, at least as a viable dating candidate. This is especially true if the
woman is physically very different from myself; i.e. taller, shorter, more
petite, much heavier, or of a different race.
I think much of this "resentment" that black women are alleged to feel is
based in the belief that a black man who dates outside his race is one less
black man for them or their friends. I tend not to see it that way. In my
opinion, if a man is attracted to someone so different from myself in whatever
fashion, he wasn't a candidate anyway. I guess I'm too much of Libetarian
myself to go around resenting people for whom they choose to date.
You yourself face a double whammy of being bisexual and in an interracial
relationship. You are very fortunate that your girlfriend doesn't mind you
"yellow fever," (thanks for the phrase, BTW, I didn't know what to call it,
without being insulting). I don't think I'll ever stop avoiding white guys
who have "jungle fever," it is very insulting to me personally and I hate it
with a passion. I want to be wanted for me, not because "I always wanted
myself a black woman." I tend to tell those guys to take a $20 dollar bill
down to any red-light district and buy himself one.
Well, anyway, thanks for the honesty, and Good Luck!
Jeremy Sammons
Pardon meif I am misreading messages, but it seems that no white guys here
are currently dating a black woman, just talking about it...except me. I've
been with my girlfriend for almost a year now. We me through a personal ad.
I've never been turned on by black women in general, but rather I look at
the person and decide if I am attracted to them. There's lots of pretty
folks in all ethnic groups...(although I must confess, Somalian women, for
some reason, when they are healthy, are very, very beautiful).
Anyway, the thing that attracted me the most to my girlfriend was her
personality. She very funny and highly intelligent, but she speaks like,
for lack of a better term, a white person does. I was raised in the south
so sometimes even I slip back to using Ebonics. But she never does. She is
very well-spoken, and her whole family is as well. I just spent a weekend
with her extended family...I was the only white person in a group of about
20 people. It was a lot of fun and very educational.
She has meat on her, so to speak..she weighs just a little more than me,
probably around 175. She has wonderful thighs, a great ass, faboulous
breasts, a pretty face, and best of all she is smart and funny. I don't
have a black fetish any more than I do a Asian fetish.
Jeremy
Jon Houts
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Jeremy Sammons wrote:
> Pardon meif I am misreading messages, but it seems that no white guys here
> are currently dating a black woman, just talking about it...except me.
You base that statement on what?
Would "dating" include marriage? My wife and I go out (on "dates", as it
were), which would make me a white guy "dating" a black woman.
Christopher Jack Nicholson
On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 00:51:56 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>In article <357579f...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
> +nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:38:20 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>>
>> >In article <3573bb1b...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
>> > +nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
>> >>
>
>Oh plueeeze! You consider Jerry Springer's guests representative of most BM/WF
>couples? His show and other talk shows take the worst examples to boost
>ratings. These people are not true representations of the "normal" interracial
>relationships out there. I cannot believe that you are that gullable.
Well, I am pretty gullible, but I wouldn't say that I am that
gullible. Of course Jerry's guests are not represenative. What they
do represent are the interracial relationships that go wrong. The
ones that do go wrong seem to almost invariably involve girls who are
white trash.
>Furthermore, are you not with Asian women "just because they're Asian?"
I'll admit that I'm not truly ready to answer this question. Perhaps
it's true for me. Perhaps it's true in the same way that you prefer
to date black men.
> I am attractive white woman. I attract both white and black men.
>I'm intelligent, professional, ambitious, and grew up in a middle to upper
>middle class household and community. All of the white women I have personally
>known who have also dated/married black men (yes, I was married for 8 years to
>a black man..) are of the same caliber. By no means, is your stereotype or
>generalization of white women who date black men necessarily the "norm"..
I I I. Me and my friends. You're perception of the situation is
obviously biased. As someone observing from without I can tell you
that your relationships, granted that they are as you describe them,
are not the norm.
>There exists a perception of ANY white woman who dates/marries black men that
>she is of lower caliber...or white trash...regardless of her "economic class"
>or level of attractiveness. This perception is applied to any white woman
>BECAUSE she is with a black man and considered, in the white community, to
>have lowered her standards by doing so.
Poppycock. I know white trash when I see it. It has something to do
with the bleached teased hair. Believe me, I have seen plenty of
white women who do not fit the stereotype, and I do not clump them
with these women. But they are, by far, in the minority (at least in
Knoxville, TN). Of course what you say is true of many white people.
>
>. It's time the rest of society elevated black
>men to a level many of them deserve and stop treating them categorically like
>they're felons in waiting, of "lower class," and whatever other generalization
>society prefers to place on them. Same goes for black women.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think black men should not settle for a
woman just because she is white.
>I get mighty tired of many of the attitudes among far too many whites. VERY
>tired. I find a lot of what you said in your posts personally distasteful.
>It's the smug white male attitude that I find to be SUCH a turn-off and with
>respect to white women who share the same attitude, I totally disassociate
>myself..
>
>Regarding your fetish for Asian women, I must ask whether or not you actually
>RESPECT Asian women or whether or not you consider them merely a sexual toy?
>I'm curious.. It doesn't seem as though you have much respect for ANY woman,
>regardless of her ethnicity. Much of what you say is degrading...
Do you respect your black men? I can have a preferece for a certain
type of woman physically/sexually and still respect them. I couldn't
live with myself if I didn't.
The fact is that we are both making generalizations. You still
haven't addressed why there are so many attractive black men with
unattractive white women. Nor have you addressed the disparity in
BM/WF vs. WM/BF. To do so you would have to make more
generalizations. Another poster said that it is because black men
find fat women attractive more often than white men do. Another
stereotype or generalization that is no better than the ones I have
made if you ask me. I think these issues are important issues to
resolve, but I don't think, from what anyone, including I, has
written, that we are getting anywhere. I do have to say, however,
that you, Deb, are too close to the issue to be able to speak to any
aspect of it truly impartially.
>Deb
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Chris
Kathy
The Devil's Advocate wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 16:38:52 GMT, +nich...@korrnet.org (Christopher
> Jack Nicholson) wrote:
>
> >Ok, you're right. It's not just that simple. But it almost is. Yes,
> >there are plenty of white women who simply prefer black men- just the
> >way that I prefer asian women. It's not that I can't get a white
> >woman- I've had plenty. But a very large number of white women that
> >have relationships with black men are fat-ass white trash. Fat-ass
> >white trash with relatively decent-looking black men. If you don't
> >believe me then watch Jerry Springer.
>
> Even though I agree with much of what you're saying Chris, I've got to
> add that Jerry Springer is the last prism to view reality through. You
> have to remember that his cast isn't representative of society as a
> whole. The most people that will appear on his show are almost by
> definition from the lower classes because they are more attracted to a
> little extra money and a free trip to Chicago in a nice hotel room
> simply for spouting their mouths on tv. You won't see too many
> professional upper-middle class IR couples on Springer because they
> simply wouldn't be interested in appearing.
Totally agree! i'm in an IR relationship and wouldn't dream of it. I
wouldn't dream of it regardless of what relationship i was in.One thing I
really need to know though is, don't these people have neighbourhoods they
go back to? Don't they have family and friends who were watching? Is this
what Andy Warhol meant when he said "Everyone has their 15 minutes of
fame"?
Kathy
Kathy
Christopher Jack Nicholson wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:38:20 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>
> >In article <3573bb1b...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
> > +nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
> >>
> >> I
> >No, it's not "just that simple" when you refer to black men and white women.
> >Has it not occurred to you that many white women find black men
> >attractive...and I'm speaking of attractive white women here as well. It is
> >not just a case of an unnattractive (relatively speaking) white women ending
> >up with a black man because she can't get an attractive white man, it's often
> >a case that she finds black men more appealing than white men no matter what
> >the white man's appearance is.. I've got to play devil's advocate here because
> >this stereotype that most of the white women who date/marry black men are
> >unnattractive is hogwash.. Look around you, there are plenty of attractive
> >white women with black men...and it's not because they can't "get" a white
> >man...
> >
> >Deb
> >
> Ok, you're right. It's not just that simple. But it almost is. Yes,
> there are plenty of white women who simply prefer black men- just the
> way that I prefer asian women. It's not that I can't get a white
> woman- I've had plenty. But a very large number of white women that
> have relationships with black men are fat-ass white trash. Fat-ass
> white trash with relatively decent-looking black men. If you don't
> believe me then watch Jerry Springer. I look at the couple and say to
> myself, "That guy is with her just because she's white." It's
> pathetic. I know that if I were black I would date some of the
> luscious black women out there before I would date these creatures.
> If I wanted to date white women I wouldn't settle for the white man's
> leftovers. I'd date one of those women that Deb is talking about.
> Yes, you're right Deb. The women you are talking about do exist. But
> there are a _great_ many more of the women that I am talking about.
> Sincerely,
> Chris
By making an anaology based on the Jerry Springer show you really aren't showing
your intelligence that much, are you?
Kathy
Reggaelady
I am going to have to stick by Deb and her opinions, which are (surprise!) very
close to my own. BTW, I am a WF who has pretty much dated BM exclusively for
the past 10 years and I have a biracial son. This is my choice, and i don't
feel as if there is any sort of pathology involved...and i offer no apologies.
My responses to your post...
<What they do represent are the interracial relationships that go wrong. >
No, what they represent is the kind of interracial relationship that Jerry
Springer, et al. seeks for their show! How often do you catch a talk show that
shows IR in a positive slant? I would love to see this, but unfortunately,
this isn't good for ratings...
<The ones that do go wrong seem to almost invariably involve girls who are
white trash.>
Excuse me, but are you calling me (in particular, and whilte women in general)
white trash because i was married to a BM? you better check yourself...how
would you like it if i labeled you with something negative? i have a college
education, have always attracted all types of men, and i didn't grow up in a
trailer park...how old are you anyway? you seem young....
<It has something to do with the bleached teased hair.>
How shallow...
Perhaps you should move to California where the attitudes are a lot more
relaxed and you could see how it REALLY is to be in an IR...then again, with
your attitude, you should stay where you are....
(Deb, you GO!)
The Devil's Advocate
On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 01:55:16 GMT, Kathy <mjac...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>Totally agree! i'm in an IR relationship and wouldn't dream of it. I
>wouldn't dream of it regardless of what relationship i was in.One thing I
>really need to know though is, don't these people have neighbourhoods they
>go back to? Don't they have family and friends who were watching?
Keep in mind that some of his shows are staged and it is quite obvious
at times. For those that aren't, these people have so little class
that in their minds, it's like a boost of ego to have appeared on
national television, especially if you come from some rural nothing of
a town.
>Is this
>what Andy Warhol meant when he said "Everyone has their 15 minutes of
>fame"?
Perhaps...still waiting for mine, even though I've been on television
once but not for 15 minutes.
The Devil's Advocate
On 05 Jun 1998 02:23:40 GMT, regga...@aol.com (Reggaelady) wrote:
>
>No, what they represent is the kind of interracial relationship that Jerry
>Springer, et al. seeks for their show! How often do you catch a talk show that
>shows IR in a positive slant? I would love to see this, but unfortunately,
>this isn't good for ratings...
As they say, "The majority of planes that don't crash won't make
news."
>Perhaps you should move to California where the attitudes are a lot more
>relaxed and you could see how it REALLY is to be in an IR...
Or even to a reggae festival. Hey you live in California and call
yourself reggaelady, did you go to UCLA's festival? Narrow minded
people like you have in middle America need to attend something like
this, smoke a fat one, and stop walking around so uptight.
The Devil's Advocate
>There's lots of pretty
>folks in all ethnic groups...(although I must confess, Somalian women, for
>some reason, when they are healthy, are very, very beautiful).
NOOOO Kidding! I've long thought that Ethiopian women are amongst the
most beautiful women in the world, that is of course given that
they're not starving or anything. I guess Somalians would be of the
same stock as they. I know JUST what you're talking about!
dmb...@connext.net
In article <35773956...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,> gullible. Of course Jerry's guests are not represenative. What they
> do represent are the interracial relationships that go wrong. The
> ones that do go wrong seem to almost invariably involve girls who are
> white trash.
Well, that's the only class of people/women that would appear on the show to
begin with..whether they're in an IR or not.
> >Furthermore, are you not with Asian women "just because they're Asian?"
>
> I'll admit that I'm not truly ready to answer this question. Perhaps
> it's true for me. Perhaps it's true in the same way that you prefer
> to date black men.
And what is the same way I prefer black men? Do you know me? I think not.
Furthermore, the above line was in response to your comment about it being
"pathetic" that the black men on the Jerry Springer show were with those white
women "just because" they're white. I was making the correlation between them
and you and your fetish for Asian women. Had nothing to do with me.
> I I I. Me and my friends. You're perception of the situation is
> obviously biased.
Duh. I also happen to know far more white women involved with black men than
you do...I'd be willing to bet.
> As someone observing from without I can tell you
> that your relationships, granted that they are as you describe them,
> are not the norm.
So what IS the norm? And do you have a source to back it up?
> Poppycock. I know white trash when I see it. It has something to do
> with the bleached teased hair. Believe me, I have seen plenty of
> white women who do not fit the stereotype, and I do not clump them
> with these women. But they are, by far, in the minority (at least in
> Knoxville, TN). Of course what you say is true of many white people.
What does teased blonde hair have to do with anything? You subscribe to every
stereotype don't you?
FWIW, I'm brunette. I live in the Baltimore/Washington area. I suppose I
witness a better class of people than you do..perhaps.
> >. It's time the rest of society elevated black
> >men to a level many of them deserve and stop treating them categorically
like
> >they're felons in waiting, of "lower class," and whatever other
generalization
> >society prefers to place on them. Same goes for black women.
> I agree wholeheartedly. I think black men should not settle for a
> woman just because she is white.
Now, what does your comment have to do with what I stated above it? And, do
you not settle for Asian women just because they're Asian?
> Do you respect your black men?
First of all, they're not MY black men. Men are not a possession. Secondly, I
more than stated in my last post that I respect black men, appreciate black
men..or did you miss that statement? I don't consider any black man dating
material simply because he's black nor do I treat him like a sexual toy. I
don't prefer to be treated that way either. I don't particularly care for men
who pursue me JUST because I'm white.
> I can have a preferece for a certain
> type of woman physically/sexually and still respect them. I couldn't
> live with myself if I didn't.
I suppose I don't see respect written all over your posts, so I questioned it.
> The fact is that we are both making generalizations. You still
> haven't addressed why there are so many attractive black men with
> unattractive white women.
Where are you getting your statistics? What percentage are with unnattractive
white women? And what classifies as unnattractive? Isn't attractiveness
relative? And to what?
Furthermore, I would venture to guess that black men with what you deem
unnattractive white women are with them for the same reasons black men are
with unnattractive black/asian/hispanic women, white men are with
unnattractive white/black/asian/hispanic women, and so on. What a rediculous
question.
> Nor have you addressed the disparity in
> BM/WF vs. WM/BF.
No need to. Go to INTERracial at http://www.twsonline.com/INTERracial/ and
venture to the forums, such discussions have monopolized the threads in the
General Discussion Forum. Too lengthy and time consuming for me to elaborate
on here..
> To do so you would have to make more
> generalizations. Another poster said that it is because black men
> find fat women attractive more often than white men do.
I don't recall seeing that post. I wouldn't label every voluptuous or shapely
woman fat, either. You know, there exists another stereotype about men who are
so obsessed with a woman's weight and are adamanet about pursuing only skinny
women....that they have a complex about their own "manhood." There's also
another stereotype regarding men who pursue asian women...that they're doing
so for the same reasons... I hate stereotypes, and I would presume you might
find those two particularly offensive yourself. Having said that, I wouldn't
run around perpetuating other stereotypes which insult other people..
>Another
> stereotype or generalization that is no better than the ones I have
> made if you ask me.
I think all people should be careful when it comes to slinging around
stereotypes, period.
> I think these issues are important issues to
> resolve, but I don't think, from what anyone, including I, has
> written, that we are getting anywhere.
Perhaps we're not. They are important to resolve but are we really discussing
them or are you simply putting the ones you buy into out there for everyone to
read and accept?
> I do have to say, however,
> that you, Deb, are too close to the issue to be able to speak to any
> aspect of it truly impartially.
And you're not?
I think stereotypes need to be countered and your comment about me being too
close to the issue was in reaction to my doing just that.
Christopher Jack Nicholson
On 05 Jun 1998 02:23:40 GMT, regga...@aol.com (Reggaelady) wrote:
>I am going to have to stick by Deb and her opinions, which are (surprise!) very
>close to my own. BTW, I am a WF who has pretty much dated BM exclusively for
>the past 10 years and I have a biracial son. This is my choice, and i don't
>feel as if there is any sort of pathology involved...and i offer no apologies.
Again, another WF who is obviously biased because of her own
situation.
>My responses to your post...
>
><What they do represent are the interracial relationships that go wrong. >
>
Granted, using Jerry is a poor analogy. But that still doesn't change
that fact that:
><The ones that do go wrong seem to almost invariably involve girls who are
>white trash.>
I may not be able to prove it, but you can't refute it.
>Excuse me, but are you calling me (in particular, and whilte women in general)
no
>white trash because i was married to a BM? you better check yourself...how
>would you like it if i labeled you with something negative? i have a college
>education, have always attracted all types of men, and i didn't grow up in a
>trailer park...how old are you anyway? you seem young....
This is where your choice in presenting a representational sample is
poor. So far the only individuals vehemently opposed to my posts are
WF involved with BM. The two of you have chosen yourselves as
reprenatives of the entire WF/BM couple phenomenon. Of course it is
more likely that someone who has figured out how to use Usenet is
intelligent/educated. Being from a background that would lead you to
use this medium disqualifies you,first, as represenative of Americans,
then moreso as represenative of women, and, finally, and most likely
most of all, as represenative of white women who date black men.
Therefore the two of you, Deb and Reggaelady, by presenting yourselves
as typical of those white women who date black men, have committed a
far larger error in analogy than I have with Jerry Springer. I have
also a college education, have lived 1.5 years abroad, won several
scholarships, and am a member of Mensa. I am 27 years old.
><It has something to do with the bleached teased hair.>
Well! It does! :P
>How shallow...
>
>Perhaps you should move to California where the attitudes are a lot more
>relaxed and you could see how it REALLY is to be in an IR...then again, with
>your attitude, you should stay where you are....
I'll be in the SF area from 20 June to 28 June if you want to discuss
this over coffee.
>(Deb, you GO!)
>
>
>
Jon Houts
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Christopher Jack Nicholson wrote:
> On 05 Jun 1998 02:23:40 GMT, regga...@aol.com (Reggaelady) wrote:
>
> >My responses to your post...
> >
> ><What they do represent are the interracial relationships that go wrong. >
> >
>
> Granted, using Jerry is a poor analogy. But that still doesn't change
> that fact that:
>
> ><The ones that do go wrong seem to almost invariably involve girls who are
> >white trash.>
NO, NO, NO!!! Trash (black and white) goes on Springer, NO PEOPLE WITH
*ANY* CLASS GO ON SPRINGER!! MANY, MANY interracial relationships go
wrong. The people in these relationships, if they have any class, WON'T
BE ON SPRINGER!! So, it's *not* that IR relationships that go wrong
involve "white trash", it's that *anyone* who agrees to appear on
Springer is "trash".
> I may not be able to prove it, but you can't refute it.
I've disagreed with you. I may not be able to "prove" I'm right, but you
can't refute it.
> This is where your choice in presenting a representational sample is
> poor. So far the only individuals vehemently opposed to my posts are
> WF involved with BM.
Are my posts not getting to your news server?
> The two of you have chosen yourselves as reprenatives of the entire
> WF/BM couple phenomenon. Of course it is more likely that someone
> who has figured out how to use Usenet is intelligent/educated.
> Being from a background that would lead you to use this medium
> disqualifies you,first, as represenative of Americans, then moreso
> as represenative of women, and, finally, and most likely
> most of all, as represenative of white women who date black men.
They're no less representative of white women who date/marry black men
than are the ones you see on Springer, to whom you pointed as
"representative".
> Therefore the two of you, Deb and Reggaelady, by presenting yourselves
> as typical of those white women who date black men, have committed a
> far larger error in analogy than I have with Jerry Springer.
Not really.
> I have also a college education, have lived 1.5 years abroad,
> won several scholarships, and am a member of Mensa.
There are many stupid people with college educations, there are many
intelligent people without college educations. Timothy McVeigh lived
abroad for some time. I don't believe you're a Mensa member, please give
proof.
Jon
Christopher Jack Nicholson
>
>On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Christopher Jack Nicholson wrote:
>
>> On 05 Jun 1998 02:23:40 GMT, regga...@aol.com (Reggaelady) wrote:
>>
>
>Are my posts not getting to your news server?
Yes- I didn't classify you as vehement. Everyone who has followed up
to me, even when they have agreed with some ppoints in my posts, have
disagreed with others.
>> Therefore the two of you, Deb and Reggaelady, by presenting yourselves
>> as typical of those white women who date black men, have committed a
>> far larger error in analogy than I have with Jerry Springer.
>
>Not really.
Explain. However slanted my admittedly poor sample is it still
includes more couples and , by virtue of numbers alone, this would
make it more respresenative (though I admit (ok?) that it was a stupid
example).
>> I have also a college education, have lived 1.5 years abroad,
>> won several scholarships, and am a member of Mensa.
>
>There are many stupid people with college educations, there are many
>intelligent people without college educations. Timothy McVeigh lived
>abroad for some time.
Was it connected to the military? I dunno- that would be my first
guess when someone told me this.
> I don't believe you're a Mensa member, please give
>proof.
Well, you caught me. I'm not a Mensa member. I was one abour 5-6
years ago. My membership expired and I never renewed it. I am
presently in the middle of contacting them and getting back on the
tolls as a dues-paying member. So the fact that I am not a member now
has to do with my money and not my brains. My member number was:
1124478
If you want a copy of Christopher Nicholson's birth certificate I
suppose I could arrange that.
Frankly, I'm surprised. I thought people would poo-poo my saying that
I was a member- saying that it's a stupid organization anyway.
>Jon
-Chris
dmb...@connext.net
In article <3577e07f...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
+nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
> ><What they do represent are the interracial relationships that go wrong. >
> >
> Granted, using Jerry is a poor analogy. But that still doesn't change
> that fact that:
What fact? Where is your source to back such "factual data" up?
> ><The ones that do go wrong seem to almost invariably involve girls who are
> >white trash.>
> I may not be able to prove it, but you can't refute it.
Sure we can. Just because you state it doesn't mean it's written in stone.
Sources. Sources. Sources.
> This is where your choice in presenting a representational sample is
> poor. So far the only individuals vehemently opposed to my posts are
> WF involved with BM.
Of course, we're the ones you're stereotyping. Why wouldn't we respond?
> The two of you have chosen yourselves as
> reprenatives of the entire WF/BM couple phenomenon.
No, we have chosen ourselves to be representative of women who DON'T fit your
stereotype.. No one said we represent all WF/BMs. We're not going to sit idly
by and not respond.
> Of course it is
> more likely that someone who has figured out how to use Usenet is
> intelligent/educated.
That's a generalization. I've come across plenty of unintelligent people on
the Internet.. Look around Usenet; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
launch a program to view and post in Usenet...or to turn a computer on.
> Being from a background that would lead you to
> use this medium disqualifies you,first, as represenative of Americans,
> then moreso as represenative of women, and, finally, and most likely
> most of all, as represenative of white women who date black men.
Disqualifies us as Americans? As women? As white women who date black men?
Huh????? Last I checked, I'm American, I'm a woman, and I date black men. Are
you for real?
> Therefore the two of you, Deb and Reggaelady, by presenting yourselves
> as typical of those white women who date black men, have committed a
> far larger error in analogy than I have with Jerry Springer.
How so?
> I have
> also a college education, have lived 1.5 years abroad, won several
> scholarships, and am a member of Mensa. I am 27 years old.
Good for you. Your point is?
Reggaelady previously wrote:
> >(Deb, you GO!)
You too Reggaelady..
w
>Well, I am pretty gullible, but I wouldn't say that I am that
>do represent are the interracial relationships that go wrong. The
>ones that do go wrong seem to almost invariably involve girls who are
>white trash.
gullible huh? well have i got a deal for you. see, there's this bridge in
brooklyn that i'm dying to get rid off quick. . .
snip
The Devil's Advocate
On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 00:19:50 GMT, +nich...@korrnet.org (Christopher
Jack Nicholson) wrote:
>Poppycock. I know white trash when I see it. It has something to do
>with the bleached teased hair.
I thought those types were swinging on the arms of leather pants
wearing over-the-hill glam rockers in Hollywood? Or even in front of
the Hell's Angel's favorite bars? ;-)
> Believe me, I have seen plenty of
>white women who do not fit the stereotype, and I do not clump them
>with these women. But they are, by far, in the minority (at least in
>Knoxville, TN).
I lived in Nashville for a few years and Atlanta. the South tends to
have the worse examples of IR couples from my observation. Because
there is so much bigotry there things like this among the upper
classes tend to be repressed and looked down upon. Reggaelady said she
was from San Francisco I think, and I'm from L.A., which are probably
the two most socially liberal cities in the country if not the world,
(after Amsterdam of course). And on top of that, seeing gay men
walking everywhere around the streets of S.F. holding hands and
kissing will obviously take attention away from interracial couples.
So our experience here will be different from what you see in the
South. The reason I'm bringing this up is because I don't see any
point in continuing this argument over who's ideal of IR couples is
truly representative of the population. The fact is, it varies. Out
here in yuppy land, you will see many professional white women with
professional black men that met in their offices or whatever. That may
not be the case where you live. So there really isn't any point in
belaboring this further, you two simply live in different social
environments and aren't going to see the same things.
Christopher Jack Nicholson
On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:55:07 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>In article <3577e07f...@newsserver.utcc.utk.edu>,
> +nich...@korrnet.org wrote:
>
>
>Sure we can. Just because you state it doesn't mean it's written in stone.
Ipse dixis and quid pro quo.
>Sources. Sources. Sources.
>
Go for it. I doubt you can. The things we are discussing are not
things that can be proven using facts. "White trash" is a category
that cannot be quantified by such things as income &c. It is a purely
judgmental label that people give other people.
>
>Of course, we're the ones you're stereotyping. Why wouldn't we respond?
It's not your responding with which I take issue. It is your
implication that, since, according to you, you do not fit my
"stereotype" that that somehow indicates that there is absolutely no
validity to my observations about the issue. And read the entire
thread. I never said that this was 100% true of all WF/BM.
>
>> The two of you have chosen yourselves as
>> reprenatives of the entire WF/BM couple phenomenon.
>
>No, we have chosen ourselves to be representative of women who DON'T fit your
>stereotype.. No one said we represent all WF/BMs. We're not going to sit idly
>by and not respond.
Fine.
>
>> Of course it is
>> more likely that someone who has figured out how to use Usenet is
>> intelligent/educated.
>
>That's a generalization. I've come across plenty of unintelligent people on
>the Internet.. Look around Usenet; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
>launch a program to view and post in Usenet...or to turn a computer on.
More true every day. When I first started reading Usenet back in 1992
it was somewhat different. But despite the popularity of the Internet
and the Web these days, the people who regularly utilize these media,
especially the Usenet, are still hardly typical of Americans. Of
course you can find a dumbass with a Ph.D. But, the people you find
online are _more likely_ to be educated/intelligent.
>
>Disqualifies us as Americans? As women? As white women who date black men?
>Huh????? Last I checked, I'm American, I'm a woman, and I date black men. Are
>you for real?
You misunderstand. A represenative is the epitome of him who he
represents. Besides, reread my post. I said,"disqualifies you,first,
as represenative of Americans..." Stress on _represenative_.
>> Therefore the two of you, Deb and Reggaelady, by presenting yourselves
>> as typical of those white women who date black men, have committed a
>> far larger error in analogy than I have with Jerry Springer.
Because, however slanted the selection process of the show is, the
mere fact that there are far many more WF who date BM that have
appeared on the show than have posted to this thread (i.e. the two of
you) that makes those that have appeared on the show a far more valid
statistical sample. (Notice I said "more valid" not simply "valid.")
>How so?
>
>
>> I have
>> also a college education, have lived 1.5 years abroad, won several
>> scholarships, and am a member of Mensa. I am 27 years old.
>
>Good for you. Your point is?
My point is that Reggaelady and Kathy made oblique ad hominem attacks
as to my intelligence and maturity, and I was just supplying this info
for their benefit. Did you read the entire thread?
>
>Reggaelady previously wrote:
>> >(Deb, you GO!)
>
>You too Reggaelady..
>
>Deb
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Ugh my server won't let me have more included text. Oh someone asked
why we were talking about this issue anyway. It was because someone
noticed and asked about the WM/BF - BM/WF disparity. I have thought
about the issue before and came up with the hypothesis that I have
been presenting in this thread. I figured that many others have
probably come up with the same hypothesis, but didn't want to speak it
out loud. Despite being a knee-jerk liberal (I think it should be
illegal to spank children, for example) I can't stand the hypocrisy of
some of what people call PC. If the original followups to the post
hadn't been such bullshit ("black women have typically been more
independant than white women have been"(which, I just noticed, you,
Deb, took issue with)) then I would probably have kept this hypothesis
to myself. I suppose that, since I presented the hypothesis, the
burden of proof is on me. Since I don't have any sources, and I can't
really imagine how I would be able to procure any (how do you quantify
attractiveness?), it would be very easy for anyone who disagrees with
me to lay _their_ hands on sources and shoot my argument out of the
water.
Hope that pushes this post through,
Chris
Roger Brown
+nich...@korrnet.org (Christopher Jack Nicholson) wrote:
>I suppose that, since I presented the hypothesis, the
>burden of proof is on me. Since I don't have any sources, and I can't
>really imagine how I would be able to procure any (how do you quantify
>attractiveness?), it would be very easy for anyone who disagrees with
>me to lay _their_ hands on sources and shoot my argument out of the
>water.
Not really. There may be no sources that either support OR shoot down
your arguments. The only group that compiles any kind of stats that I
know of on interracial marriages is the US Government, and aside from
the breakdown by racial groups on www.census.gov, there is not, as far
as I know, a breakdown by income among the interracial marriages.
All evidence is therefore anecdotal. The Jerry Springer show looks for
extremes, and seems to concentrate on a very low-income and
low-educational subgroup. This could hardly represent the country's IR
relationships as a whole, because of the highly slanted nature of the
selection process.
As the Devil's Advocate states, and I agree with his assesment, is
that the demographics of interracial relationships are different in
different geographic and economic areas.
- Roger
dmb...@connext.net
In article <357AF240...@ix.netcom.com>,
ms...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Oh, the things that make people trip. I am a strong, assertive(not to be read
as
> aggressive) black female who operates an organization for interracial/inter
> cultural couples and singles.
>
> We are hosting a national event that will connect people to new friends, maybe
> even new love. This has been coordinated and planned for almost a year,
sponsored
> by corporations, and is going to happen in August. (I'm hibernating all
> September).
>
> I have met people both personally and professionally that cannot believe a
"sista"
> would host such an event, let alone own a business of this nature. WHEW! -
don't
> make me move my neck! Dating interracially takes nothing away from my
blackness,
> and my biggest question is does the business offend you, or would you feel
more
> comfortable if I was white? Save the drama - I am here....a black woman who
> believes anyone should be entitled to find love wherever they may.
>
> And to the schmuck who keeps sending me hate mail, my "brotha", if me or my
> philosophy bother you, feel free to ignore me.
>
> '......I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you..............'
>
> MS CUPID'S INTERRACIAL CONNECTIONS
For what it's worth, you have my support!
Deb
INTERracial
ms...@ix.netcom.com
Deb, thank ya, gurl. Love sees no color and friendship should be the
same. Tell me, do white women feel that black women as a whole are
bitter when they see BM/WF couples?
I was invited to a Pacers game by a friend who is black. As a mother of
a biracial child and an advocate for children, I guess when I see
biracial children, or more particular, interracial parents, I smile or
make some show of support. We were leaving the game, and this
attractive interracial couple with their attractive children had to wait
at the light with me and my date. The mother and I struck up a
conversation, and I complimented her on how well mannered her children
were, and you know women - we were getting ready to run our
mouths(smile).
Well, the husband looked around, took one look at me and - no kidding -
grabbed his wife's arm and made her cross the street. No "hello",
"good-bye", "kiss my a--"...nothing. This is what you call "instant
pisstation". The woman did not offend me, neither did the relationship,
but the man was offensive. My date was more philosophical about it. He
said maybe some black woman had confronted them previously and he was
just protecting his family. Maybe. I was still offended, though.
So, I would like to know - and not for riot-starting purposes, do white
women feel that black women as a whole are bitter about interracial
dating? And in fairness, I will answer that question from the flip side
- no, I don't feel white women are bitter(and this is only personal
experience). The only white woman who had a problem with interracial
dating was my ex mother-in-law, but WHEW!....that's another story!
Have a great week, ya'll.
Stephanie
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
My answer to this question is from the conversations that I have had
with several black women on this subject, as well as the observations
that I have made while dating black women.
I have found that the only black women who seemed to be disapproving of
IR relationships are those who have a slightly racist phillosophy
themselves. A few will admit that they think that white people are
"evil"; usualy, most will say that they do not think that black men
should date white women because they feel that "that takes away all of
our eligible black men." (Like myself, as a black man, automatically
become the property of black women upon birth!) A few have told me that
they diosaprove of the relationship because of how they felt that
society would react when a biracial (actualy, in the case of most
"black" people like myself, multiracial would be a more accurate term)
child is introduced into the world. While I can appreciate the apparent
sentiment, I can but think that, being a black person in America, that
we would be used to such a stigma anyway, and we would teach our
children how to cope with it, no matter how dark or light thier skin is.
I know that this is far from a being accurate statistical sampling, but
I would say that around 75% of the black women that I have talked to
disapproved of IR relationships, with the other 25% either not caring or
actualy approving because they themselves were involved in IR
relationships.
I apologize in advance for any offense that I may have caused.
--
Alexia I.K.
Christopher Jack Nicholson
And mines as well! I've already checked out your Asian selection.
Chris
Reggaelady
Weeeelllll, as a WF who has been involved with BM for at least 10 years now
(formerly married to a BM and I have a biracial child by him), I probably tend
to agree with alexis. Most of the interactions i have had with black women have
either been negative or nothing, not very many positive reactions. My ex is
involved now with a BF and has been since we split up and this woman HATES me
for some reason that I am not privy too (i tried being friends with her too).
She is extremely jealous of my son (she held a knife to my son when having an
argument with the ex, something i can NEVER forgive) and myself and has never
had any reason to be, as I definitely don't want him back for many reasons.
However, I don't/won't pin this label on all BF; it's just that this one is
nuts!
Anyway, back to the subject at hand....I don't know if it's the blonde hair i
have (when it was brown, didn't get as much reaction, lol) or what. Maybe the
BM who dissed you was having a bad day, who knows?
When I see any type of interracial couple, I usually smile or acknowledge them
in some way. I don't have a problem with anyone in an IR, and actually, when I
see a BF/WM, it makes me happy that BF are allowing themselves some happiness
and not dwelling on the fact that there are *so few* BM for *them* (and I am
seeing a lot more couples like yourself, in California).
So, hopefully the climate is changing a bit. I'm just waiting to see some
POSITIVE interracial movies come out of Hollywood...
(PS-reggae shows are a great place for interracial couples-check it out!)
The Devil's Advocate
On 09 Jun 1998 02:34:36 GMT, regga...@aol.com (Reggaelady) wrote:
>
>Anyway, back to the subject at hand....I don't know if it's the blonde hair i
>have (when it was brown, didn't get as much reaction, lol) or what.
As weird as it sounds, I can imagine that having blonde hair would
make things worse. Since whites with blonde hair in a sense look even
more white than brunettes. Yes, black women overall don't care to see
a black man with a white woman, and they HATE to see a black man, and
a particularly nice looking one with a blond/blue-eyed white woman. If
Denzel Washington were to marry a woman of this type, there would
probably be a 2nd civil war, ;-)
Maybe the
>BM who dissed you was having a bad day, who knows?
>
>When I see any type of interracial couple, I usually smile or acknowledge them
>in some way.
I do just the opposite, I ignore them and try my best not to even look
at them. I don't want to make them think I might be staring. I'm sure
what makes IR couples most happy is when people don't notice them
anymore than they would a same race couple.
>I don't have a problem with anyone in an IR, and actually, when I
>see a BF/WM, it makes me happy that BF are allowing themselves some happiness
Same here, I'm glad to hear that more black women are becoming
open-minded.
>So, hopefully the climate is changing a bit. I'm just waiting to see some
>POSITIVE interracial movies come out of Hollywood...
I never saw that one with Wesley Snipes, was that positive? And then
there is that soap that comes on I've caught a glimpse or two of, that
shows that man with dreadlocks with the white lady. There was also
that fox show called "True Colors" a few years back, I think that was
positive.
>
>(PS-reggae shows are a great place for interracial couples-check it out!)
Very true, I see lot's there. What's interesting is that even though
Rastafari has some doctrines that could be seen as racist against
whites, I have met no Rastas that seem to harbor any prejudice. And
even though America claims to not be racist, there are many racist
Americans. Just one of those weird inversions.
Derangela
>We were leaving the game, and this
>attractive interracial couple with their attractive children had to wait
>at the light with me and my date. The mother and I struck up a
>conversation, and I complimented her on how well mannered her children
>were, and you know women - we were getting ready to run our
>mouths(smile).
>
>Well, the husband looked around, took one look at me and - no kidding -
>grabbed his wife's arm and made her cross the street.
From reading your post, I cannot figure out the makeup of the interracial
couple that you speak of. Was the male white or black?
I personally would be slightly offended if someone pointed out how 'well
behaved' my children were if it seemed to me that they were saying it in a tone
such as - 'compared to the black kids I see'. I am not implying that you stated
it this way. It's just that sometimes you have people saying things about you
or your family, thinking they are being complimentary when they aren't. And
then you get the one person who is being complimentary and by then you're just
fed up.
I personally get frustrated when I meet someone for the first time (usually
through a friend) and then I hear back from them that the person really liked
talking to me because I was so smart and well spoken. Now I know that it is
just a compliment, but sometimes (usually) I just get mad and say "Oh what,
they didn't expect me to be? Were they suprised becuse I'm black?"
Now I know it's probably because I'm paranoid, or something, but I do this. So
maybe it's the same general thing. Of course there could be a whole
relationship dynamic between the couple that we will never know.....
obie1
In article <199806090748...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, dera...@aol.com (Derangela) wrote:
snip
>From reading your post, I cannot figure out the makeup of the interracial
>couple that you speak of. Was the male white or black?
methinks he wuz black but of course that's just my opinion; i could be
erroneous.
>I personally would be slightly offended if someone pointed out how 'well
>behaved' my children were if it seemed to me that they were saying it in a tone
>such as - 'compared to the black kids I see'. I am not implying that you stated
>it this way. It's just that sometimes you have people saying things about you
>or your family, thinking they are being complimentary when they aren't. And
>then you get the one person who is being complimentary and by then you're just
>fed up.
>I personally get frustrated when I meet someone for the first time (usually
>through a friend) and then I hear back from them that the person really liked
>talking to me because I was so smart and well spoken. Now I know that it is
>just a compliment, but sometimes (usually) I just get mad and say "Oh what,
>they didn't expect me to be? Were they suprised becuse I'm black?"
yes, and it doesn't pay to be chronically-easily frustrated in this
extra-sensitive manner. a compliment is a compliment is a compliment,
backhanded, damning with faint praise or whatever. take it like the money and
haul ass.
>Now I know it's probably because I'm paranoid, or something, but I do this. So
>maybe it's the same general thing. Of course there could be a whole
>relationship dynamic between the couple that we will never know.....
you got it. try to think it through thoroughly first, all ye ollie stone and
x-filez conspiratorz, i mean fanz. <bulb above head lits> i know, they are
porn stars and feared being harassed by some starstruck deranged fan bent on
lavishing backhanded compliments on them, their relationship, their children,
and some supposed dynamic that only those who've been abducted and
anally-probed by extra-terresterials and then endowed with esp could possibly
perceive.
let them poor folks be. all the discussions in all the newsgroups on all the
servers on all the computers of the world ain't gonna change a damn thing
unless those who know better do better. go out and get a little coffee in your
cream or vice versa. after all, action is said to speak louder than words.
Jon Houts
On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Christopher Jack Nicholson wrote:
> <hou...@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:
>
> >Are my posts not getting to your news server?
>
> Yes- I didn't classify you as vehement.
I didn't particularly think any of the respondents were vehement.
Defensive, maybe, but who could blame them. I'd be defensive too if I
were a white woman dating/married to a black man, and read you post here
stating that unattractive WFs were over-represented in IR relationships.
That would feel like a slap in the face.
I didn't particularly think any of the respondents were vehement.
Defensive, maybe, but who could blame them. I'd be defensive too if I
were a white woman dating/married to a black man, and read you post here
stating that unattractive WFs were over-represented in IR relationships.
That would feel like a slap in the face.
> >> Therefore the two of you, Deb and Reggaelady, by presenting yourselves
> >> as typical of those white women who date black men, have committed a
> >> far larger error in analogy than I have with Jerry Springer.
> >
> >Not really.
>
> Explain. However slanted my admittedly poor sample is it still
> includes more couples and , by virtue of numbers alone, this would
> make it more respresenative...
I don't usually point out spelling errors (bad 'netiquette), but since
you claim to be mensa material...it's representative. I noticed you
misspelled it a few times recently.
How do you know that your "sample" contains more couples? Didn't Deb and
Reggaelady mention themselves and friends? I only recently stopped
watching Springer, and I personally know more B/W IR couples than I've
seen on his show. Your contention that WF who date BM are less
attractive doesn't wash with my personal observations.
Someone pointed out on this thread that it could be regional differences,
maybe that's the case.
> >> I have also a college education, have lived 1.5 years abroad,
> >> won several scholarships, and am a member of Mensa.
> >
> >There are many stupid people with college educations, there are many
> >intelligent people without college educations. Timothy McVeigh lived
> >abroad for some time.
>
> Was it connected to the military? I dunno- that would be my first
> guess when someone told me this.
>
Yes. As a matter of fact, I was originally going to put "many people
lived overseas in the armed forces..." but thought McVeigh was a better
attention-grabber. It just goes to show ya', having lived abroad means
nothing (in and of itself).
> > I don't believe you're a Mensa member, please give proof.
>
> Well, you caught me. I'm not a Mensa member. I was one abour 5-6
> years ago. My membership expired and I never renewed it. I am
> presently in the middle of contacting them and getting back on the
> tolls as a dues-paying member. So the fact that I am not a member now
> has to do with my money and not my brains. My member number was:
> 1124478.
Not proof.
> If you want a copy of Christopher Nicholson's birth certificate I
> suppose I could arrange that.
I didn't question your age, that was someone else.
> Frankly, I'm surprised. I thought people would poo-poo my saying that
> I was a member- saying that it's a stupid organization anyway.
For what it's worth, being a member of mensa doesn't make you an expert
at anything. They test intelligence, not knowledge. As a "member", you
should know not to use your membership status to gain credibility as an
"expert" (or as one who has *any* knowledge on the subject at hand).
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
In my experiance, being a Mensa member means that one may have the
potential for having a greater than average grasp of the knowledge at
hand, but if the knowledge that one has on hand is wrong, or if one does
not have the means with which to properly utilize that knowledge (there
is no test for wisdom), then basicaly, membership in Mensa really is of
no import to this conversation; neither is the fact that a person is a
college graduate, because all college does is give you raw knowledge and
the tools for basic application; advanced application of that knowledge
(which also includes the ability to discern whether or not said
knowledge is actualy accurate) comes with time and wisdom, something
that I feel that the mensa member, in this case, is lacking in.
Credibility does not come with being a member in an orginization that is
mainly self serving; it comes with other people realizing that you
actualy know what you are talking about. Tossing about so-called
credentials does not give you that; it merely affirms the opposite.
--
Alexia I.K.
obie1
damn rocket scientists and brain surgeons
dmb...@connext.net
In article <357C1465...@ix.netcom.com>,
ms...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Deb, thank ya, gurl.
You're welcome. I meant it.
> Love sees no color and friendship should be the
> same.
I agree. I have to ask you something (and any other black woman who would
like to respond). There seems to be some difficulty between many white and
black women accepting each other in friendship. I've never quite figured out
why I see this so frequently...a distinct separation between us women and too
often intentional. Is it cultural differences that make many white and black
women avoid each other, which translates into some inability (or so they
think) to relate to each other as women? I have female friends who are black.
These same friends, however, are either married to or date white men. I've
witnessed many black and white women avoid each other in friendship
(especially women from monoracial unions). It's always bothered me. I often
find it refreshing when I can easily establish a dialogue with a black woman
and we're able to be friendly to each other, sharing in whatever discussion
we happen upon at the moment. I smile to myself, which may sound rediculous,
but it's because I've never held anything against black women and have only
sought friendship or common decency, not competition or adversity. I
understand, however, that there are black women who are very ethnocentric and
prefer not to interact with white women (or whites in general) on a personal
level. I suppose it's their choice. I'm sure many whites have been the same
way, I just happen to not be one of them so I don't understand or easily
accept the mentality on either "side," so to speak.
> Tell me, do white women feel that black women as a whole are
> bitter when they see BM/WF couples?
I'm not sure if we feel, as a whole, black woman are intolerant (or bitter
toward) of BM/WF couples. I can only speak for myself, but I find myself VERY
cautious around black women when I'm with a BM..sort of gauging their
reactions so I'll know where they stand. I've had too many negative
experiences with black women while dating/married, so this has made me
cautious and suspicious of their attitude toward my relationships. I would
have to say that I have personally felt that a majority, based on their
attitudes and reactions, are opposed to BM/WF unions. I've known some who
have dated white men who also feel this way. Go figure.
I've also experienced some of the objections (through attitude, behavior,
comments, etc.) while alone with my soon-to-be-13-year-old daughter who is
biracial. It's been obvious enough to even her that she has questioned me
about why a particular woman was so rude or why a particular woman was
staring at her.
The fact that so many black women openly object to such relationships is also
evident when I discuss IRs with other white women. We've all had very similar
experiences with black women.
Another observation I've made is of those black women who date/marry
"exclusively" black men. The ones who are adament about it. These same women
will make a point of telling anyone and everyone who will listen that "they
are devoted to their brothas" and that they "exclusively" date black men.
Some of these women are in relationships...have a "black man"..and STILL take
the time to vocally object to BM/WF relationships. Huh? First of all, if I
were into white men "exclusively," I wouldn't make a point of telling the
world... Secondly, if these women have a man, why are they still up in the
faces of other women and men about their relationships? I've heard long
explanations for this, which I have no time nor bandwidth to elaborate on,
but I find it bothersome that some black women find it necessary to voice
their exclusive devotion to black men to interracial couples of any
combination. These women are not only saying it to white women and black men,
but to other black women...to perpetuate this mindset that it's somehow not
ok, and more prideful, to remain "true" to the black "race." I say, good for
them. That's their choice. They don't, however, have the right to dictate to
others nor am I, or many people, truly interested in the fact that they are
exclusive in their choices for themselves. It's like, what is the point? What
are they hoping to accomplish besides what I've speculated about here? Do
they want applause or to be patted on the back for not betraying their
"race?" One can only guess... I say, I don't care what their choices are.
Geesh..
I live in the DC/Baltimore area and listen mostly to "black" radio stations.
Often I hear discussions among the DJs, both men and women, albeit mostly the
women, about "so and so" with a white woman and there's often a snyde comment
which makes it obvious they object. Sometimes it's a famous person they're
discussing or it's men/women in general. Some of the male DJs make the same
comments and usually it's derogatory toward white women. Then again, I also
hear much discussion about "light skin" and/or/vs. "dark skin." I often feel
frustrated with this obsession with skin color..
> Well, the husband looked around, took one look at me and - no kidding -
> grabbed his wife's arm and made her cross the street. No "hello",
> "good-bye", "kiss my a--"...nothing. This is what you call "instant
> pisstation". The woman did not offend me, neither did the relationship,
> but the man was offensive. My date was more philosophical about it. He
> said maybe some black woman had confronted them previously and he was
> just protecting his family. Maybe. I was still offended, though.
It's hard to speculate about why he reacted the way he did. Did he realize the
two of you were talking before he whisked his wife away?
> So, I would like to know - and not for riot-starting purposes, do white
> women feel that black women as a whole are bitter about interracial
> dating? And in fairness, I will answer that question from the flip side
> - no, I don't feel white women are bitter(and this is only personal
> experience). The only white woman who had a problem with interracial
> dating was my ex mother-in-law, but WHEW!....that's another story!
As a white woman, I'm far from bitter when I see a black woman and a white
man together. Like some of the others have said here, I find it refreshing to
see BF/WM unions. I smile. I think "it's about time.." I would imagine that
some of the flack WF/BM get for their relationships, BF/WM get their fair
share as well. It's all so rediculous.
> Have a great week, ya'll.
>
> Stephanie
You too!
Deb
The Devil's Advocate
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:19:32 GMT, dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>
>I agree. I have to ask you something (and any other black woman who would
>like to respond). There seems to be some difficulty between many white and
>black women accepting each other in friendship. I've never quite figured out
>why I see this so frequently...a distinct separation between us women and too
>often intentional. Is it cultural differences that make many white and black
>women avoid each other, which translates into some inability (or so they
>think) to relate to each other as women?
It very well could be because of cultural differences, but I would say
it's probably nothing more than common clannishness that seems
ubiquitous. I don't know how mulit-ethnic the area you live is, but if
it were as diverse as L.A., you would see that other types of women
are just as clannish if not more so. Asians I rarely see socialising
outside of their group on campus. And even more interesting, even the
different Asian ethnicities themselves don't socialise outside of
their group. I.e, Phillipinos with Phillipinos, Vietnamese hanging
with Vietnamese, Koreans hanging with Koreans, etc. This is also just
as true for Arabs and E. Indians. I'd say that whites, blacks and
Hispanics are the most likely to socialise outside of their group, and
that's probably because we've been in this country longer.
>I have female friends who are black.
>These same friends, however, are either married to or date white men.
"Birds of a feather....."
>I've
>witnessed many black and white women avoid each other in friendship
>(especially women from monoracial unions). It's always bothered me. I often
>find it refreshing when I can easily establish a dialogue with a black woman
>and we're able to be friendly to each other, sharing in whatever discussion
>we happen upon at the moment. I smile to myself, which may sound rediculous,
>but it's because I've never held anything against black women and have only
>sought friendship or common decency, not competition or adversity. I
>understand, however, that there are black women who are very ethnocentric and
>prefer not to interact with white women (or whites in general) on a personal
>level. I suppose it's their choice.
I really don't care for this mentality. That is what causes me to be
against black nationalism and all forms of nationalism. I don't like
the micro, regionalised way of thinking and would rather see people
being broadminded. There's nothing I admire more than a cosmopolite.
Someone who can speak more than one language, is familiar with
different customs around the world, who has travelled, who
participates in other culture's festivals and knows the ways of the
world. Such people are rare and always a joy to meet. This is the
exact opposite of the ethnocentric enclaves that I find too often.
>> Tell me, do white women feel that black women as a whole are
>> bitter when they see BM/WF couples?
>
>I'm not sure if we feel, as a whole, black woman are intolerant (or bitter
>toward) of BM/WF couples.
They probably are as well toward BF/WM couples too. But since there
are so much fewer of these, you don't find it as much.
>I've also experienced some of the objections (through attitude, behavior,
>comments, etc.) while alone with my soon-to-be-13-year-old daughter who is
>biracial. It's been obvious enough to even her that she has questioned me
>about why a particular woman was so rude or why a particular woman was
>staring at her.
Tell her that it's because some people are long overdue for an enema
;-)
>
>The fact that so many black women openly object to such relationships is also
>evident when I discuss IRs with other white women. We've all had very similar
>experiences with black women.
I've never noticed anywhere near the same level of anger that BW have
when they see a black man with a Hispanic, Phillipina or other
non-white woman. If the black man or woman is from Africa and involved
with a white, they don't look at it the same either. And I would guess
black woman would probably react less if they saw a black man with a
white woman that was from Europe.
>Another observation I've made is of those black women who date/marry
>"exclusively" black men. The ones who are adament about it. These same women
>will make a point of telling anyone and everyone who will listen that "they
>are devoted to their brothas" and that they "exclusively" date black men.
>Some of these women are in relationships...have a "black man"..and STILL take
>the time to vocally object to BM/WF relationships.
These are amongst some of the most obnoxious and irritating woman of
all. I'd hope they would like these black men for personality factors
and not ~because~ of their race, such would be almost tribal in it's
sophistication.
>As a white woman, I'm far from bitter when I see a black woman and a white
>man together. Like some of the others have said here, I find it refreshing to
>see BF/WM unions. I smile. I think "it's about time.." I would imagine that
>some of the flack WF/BM get for their relationships, BF/WM get their fair
>share as well.
My feelings exactly! And I'm a BM.
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
The Devil's Advocate wrote:
<HEAVILY Snipped>
> It very well could be because of cultural differences, but I would say
> it's probably nothing more than common clannishness that seems
> ubiquitous. I don't know how mulit-ethnic the area you live is, but if
> it were as diverse as L.A., you would see that other types of women
> are just as clannish if not more so. Asians I rarely see socialising
> outside of their group on campus. And even more interesting, even the
> different Asian ethnicities themselves don't socialise outside of
> their group. I.e, Phillipinos with Phillipinos, Vietnamese hanging
> with Vietnamese, Koreans hanging with Koreans, etc. This is also just
> as true for Arabs and E. Indians. I'd say that whites, blacks and
> Hispanics are the most likely to socialise outside of their group, and
> that's probably because we've been in this country longer.
Islanders, there is a definite "pecking order" that they will adhere
to. They will date/marry others of thier own ethnicity first, then
other Asians/Pacific Islanders, then whites (in this group, I am also
counting Jews, since Ashkenazi Jews are not really Semitic, but
European). With Asians/Pacific Islanders (and Jews for that matter),
blacks are ALWAYS at the bottom of the totem pole.
> "Birds of a feather....."
>
> against black nationalism and all forms of nationalism. I don't like
> the micro, regionalised way of thinking and would rather see people
> being broadminded.
you are very secure in your history and your identitiy. Years of
Eurocentric education have left many nonwhites in the USA alienated from
thier own pasts; as a black male myself (well, as "black" as a
Russian/Native American/African person can be), I can fully understand
why other nonwhites would want to espouse a sort of nationalism, since
the pendulum must swing both ways in order to rest in the middle. Black
Nationalism is not a totaly organic thought; it is a reaction to years
of constant discrimination in the USA, and a desire to correct, not
revise, our own histories.
>There's nothing I admire more than a cosmopolite.
> Someone who can speak more than one language, is familiar with
> different customs around the world, who has travelled, who
> participates in other culture's festivals and knows the ways of the
> world. Such people are rare and always a joy to meet.
been taught the truth about yourself, and you have been taught to be
proud of yourself as a person. Most nonwhites in this country have not
had this luxery. Untill we see an end to racism in this country,
nonwhite nationalism will persist.
> exact opposite of the ethnocentric enclaves that I find too often.
the larger society - in our case, the Eurocentric American society -
has, for the longest time, refused to recognize most nonwhites as thier
equals. They have actively opressed the various nonwhites, and, as of
this date, show little sign of being willing to stop the racist
oppression (in the form of, not only social policies, but the numbers of
fringe, right-wing orginizations that have been allowed to flourish
openly in our society under the protection of the First Amendment). So
I ask you this: having experianced such treatment at the hands of
whites, who should we seek to live with, to work with and to congregate
with?
In a perfect world, your open admiration of the cosmopolite would be
understandable. But given the present reality, it seems to be more
reactionistic than enlightened. Since you are secure of yourself, you
cannot see why everyone cannot be secure of themselves to the point of
actively seeking out and participating in others culures as well. I
have news for you: for the last twenty+ generations, most African and
Native Americans have not been practising "thier own" culures, but
rather, that of the dominating Eurocentic society. The fact that a
black person or a Native American would espouse Nationalism and seek to
return to thier "roots" should surprise no one; one might indeed ask why
more blacks and Native Americans aren't doing it.
> They probably are as well toward BF/WM couples too. But since there
> are so much fewer of these, you don't find it as much.
Actualy, in my personal experiances, I have found a double standard to
exist in that aspect. While many black women don't like to see "thier"
black men with a white woman, I have found that, with many black women
that I have known, having a white man is something of a status symbol;
they seem to think that, with a white man at thier sides, that they will
"make it" in life.
>
> I've never noticed anywhere near the same level of anger that BW have
> when they see a black man with a Hispanic, Phillipina or other
> non-white woman. If the black man or woman is from Africa and involved
> with a white, they don't look at it the same either. And I would guess
> black woman would probably react less if they saw a black man with a
> white woman that was from Europe.
I think that the reaction on this last point would be about the same.
If the black man was from Europe, as well as the white woman, then your
statement would be true. And black people tend to view Hispanics,
Native Americans and your "darker" Asians (except for Indians) as
"brother races," hence, the lack of animosity when confronted with a
pairing with one of these races.
--
Alexia I.K.
Ce...@my-dejanews.com
> same. Tell me, do white women feel that black women as a whole are
> bitter when they see BM/WF couples?
>
> a biracial child and an advocate for children, I guess when I see
> biracial children, or more particular, interracial parents, I smile or
> attractive interracial couple with their attractive children had to wait
> at the light with me and my date. The mother and I struck up a
> conversation, and I complimented her on how well mannered her children
> were, and you know women - we were getting ready to run our
> mouths(smile).
>
> grabbed his wife's arm and made her cross the street. No "hello",
> "good-bye", "kiss my a--"...nothing. This is what you call "instant
> pisstation". The woman did not offend me, neither did the relationship,
> but the man was offensive. My date was more philosophical about it. He
> said maybe some black woman had confronted them previously and he was
> just protecting his family. Maybe. I was still offended, though.
>
> women feel that black women as a whole are bitter about interracial
> dating? And in fairness, I will answer that question from the flip side
> - no, I don't feel white women are bitter(and this is only personal
> experience). The only white woman who had a problem with interracial
> dating was my ex mother-in-law, but WHEW!....that's another story!
>
>
> Stephanie
>
>
I live with a black man in the UK, London, and in my experience black men are
much more relaxed about a black guy going out with a white woman. However,
black women, for some unknown reason, very often act hostile towards me (but
I must say not all of them!!). But, would you believe that 40% of black men
in the UK date a non-black woman? And 20% of white women data a non-white
man. Generally however, in the UK, and especially in London where I live, it
is acceptable and quite common for two people of different races to be dating
each other. Personally, I couldn't give a sod who anyone dates, as long as
they are happy! Good luck to you all, and have a great week!
roz...@hotmail.com
Alright, I'm going to put my two cents worth in, and probably manage to
offend someone, if not everyone. I am a black woman who primarily dates
white men, however, I had no problem with WF/BM IR couples even before I
myself became involved in an IR relationship. Why? I guess because I am an
ardent Libertarian and live by the motto "live and let live." Nothing makes
me angrier than this idea that black women are irrationally running around
hating white women for taking "their" men. I believe if there were more
equality in the value placed on white and black women in this society, this
irrationality would disappear. A man is a man is a man, and I believe that
many black women would date white men if society did not foster this belief
that black women are somehow beneath contempt. There is no point in black
women saying that they'll just date white guys instead--the numbers simply
aren't there.
I have had many friendships with white women and believe, that even if you
remove the issue of black men from the equation our life experiences are
simply so different that it really takes a conscious effort on my behalf to
maintain these friendships.
In general, white women have always been protected, sheltered and treasured
in this society. Black women, on the other hand, have seldom had this
benefit. Obviously it is not white women's fault that they are put upon a
pedestal, but, and this is the same argument I use with those who say that
their ancestors weren't slaveholders and therefore racism is not their fault,
to that argument I usually respond that anyone in this society who is born
with white skin benefits from this country's racist legacy. White women, by
virtue of being white have a substantial leg-up in this society. Despite the
fact that we have similar issues in common, a white woman is always going to
be better off than a black woman, even if education and income are equal.
When I hear a white woman bitch or moan about something, I instinctively
smirk, and ask myself "What is is she complaining about? All she has to be
is white, and the world assumes that she is worthy. Simply because I am
black, the world assumes I'm unworthy and I have to go out and do battle to
prove myself daily."
I do not believe you will see black women and white women befriending each
other in substantial numbers until the playing field is more level. After
all, we don't see white men and black men hanging together that often either.
Its a matter of inequality. As long as this is true, there will be a
separation. Please believe me when I say that I'm not trying to offend or
hurt anyone's feelings, but I think this is a very important issue, and am
trying to be as real as possible. If anyone is offended, please accept my
apologies in advance.
Christopher Jack Nicholson
>On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Christopher Jack Nicholson wrote:
>
>> <hou...@freenet.msp.mn.us> wrote:
>>
>
>I don't usually point out spelling errors (bad 'netiquette), but since
>you claim to be mensa material...it's representative. I noticed you
>misspelled it a few times recently.
Thanks, something was nagging me every time that I typed it.
>How do you know that your "sample" contains more couples?
I'm sure you'll agree that Springer has had more than two couples-
including Deb and Reggaelady's friends is stretching it. Besides,
since what we are talking about (which some people don't seem to
understand), is basically LOOKS (however shallow that may seem), then
Deb and Reggaelady are hardly represenTATIVE in this regard themselves
as we have only seen them in print.
> Didn't Deb and
>Reggaelady mention themselves and friends? I only recently stopped
>watching Springer, and I personally know more B/W IR couples than I've
>seen on his show. Your contention that WF who date BM are less
>attractive doesn't wash with my personal observations.
>Someone pointed out on this thread that it could be regional differences,
>maybe that's the case.
I'm thinking that is probably is. IR college couples here in this
college town tend not to fit this mold either.
>> >> I have also a college education, have lived 1.5 years abroad,
>> >> won several scholarships, and am a member of Mensa.
>> >
>Yes. As a matter of fact, I was originally going to put "many people
>lived overseas in the armed forces..." but thought McVeigh was a better
>attention-grabber. It just goes to show ya', having lived abroad means
>nothing (in and of itself).
Well, I wasn't in the military. I matriculated at the Universite de
Fribourg, Switzerland, for a year, and worked for six months in
London. I think you'll agree that serving in the military abroad is a
whole different story. My redneck bother spent some time in Korea and
I'll bet you he doesn't even know how to say 'hello' to "dinks".
>> > I don't believe you're a Mensa member, please give proof.
>>
>> Well, you caught me. I'm not a Mensa member. I was one abour 5-6
>> years ago. My membership expired and I never renewed it. I am
>> presently in the middle of contacting them and getting back on the
>> tolls as a dues-paying member. So the fact that I am not a member now
>> has to do with my money and not my brains. My member number was:
>> 1124478.
>
>Not proof.
What would be proof then? I'll tell you what, I will scan my old card
send it to you. Though that would be very easy to fake. I don't see
why you can't call up Mensa and ask them if there ever was a member
Christopher J. Nicholson with member number 1124478.
>> If you want a copy of Christopher Nicholson's birth certificate I
>> suppose I could arrange that.
That was to prove that I was not impersonating Mensa member
Christopher J Nicholson.
>I didn't question your age, that was someone else.
>> Frankly, I'm surprised. I thought people would poo-poo my saying that
>> I was a member- saying that it's a stupid organization anyway.
>
>For what it's worth, being a member of mensa doesn't make you an expert
>at anything. They test intelligence, not knowledge. As a "member", you
>should know not to use your membership status to gain credibility as an
>"expert" (or as one who has *any* knowledge on the subject at hand).
By making an anaology based on the Jerry Springer show you really
aren't showing
your intelligence that much, are you?
Kathy
i have a college
education, have always attracted all types of men, and i didn't grow
up in a
trailer park...how old are you anyway? you seem young....
[Reggaelady]
^^^Those were the comments I was responding to when I wrote what I
wrote . Reggaelady was merely pointing out that she wasn't white
trash, but with that age comment tacked on it still sounded like a
challenge.
Chris
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
I think President Clinton said it best when he stated (I am paraphrasing
here) that "white people today may not be practising thier ancestors
racism, but they have to realize that they (the white people today) are
benefactors of it."
In some cases, even thought the negative reactions to IR is the same,
the underlying reasons are not. When a white person reacts negatively
to a IR couple, he or she is doing so out of a belief that thier racial
gene pool will become "dilluted" in some manner (like every African
Amerrican is "pure" black - hah!), whereas a black person who frowns
upon sucha union is thinking about the further loss of identity; I am
not saying that either one of the two reactions are right, but we have
to realize the difference. Sure, they may both be an inherently racist
reaction, but one (the black) is in reaction to the other (the white),
and not independant of it.
What does this mean? Once we realize why we as individuals may be
opposed to something, then we can proceed to work towards rectifying the
situation through self-enligntenment, but I can almost guaruntee you
that black resistance to IR couples, or black racsim in general, will
not end untill white racism does.
--
Alexia I.K.
Timothy Lee
> Of course it is more likely that someone who has figured out how to use Usenet is
> intelligent/educated.
This was much truer back in the good old days before AOL and Microsoft decided to go
after the high-growth "dolt" segment of the market, when you needed to learn Unix to
get onto Usenet, and most Usenet dwellers had university or research accounts.
Nowadays, though, I think what you say is wishful thinking. *sigh* I wish it were
the case too.
--
Timothy Lee
University of Pennsylvania BSE '91 / MBA '98
Alumnus of the United States Navy "Respect all; fear none."
http://equity.wharton.upenn.edu/~timoth31/
timo...@wharton.upenn.edu
Timothy Lee
> Someone pointed out on this thread that it could be regional differences,
> maybe that's the case.
Roger that. As an Asian-American who grew up in the rural South, I am not
prepared to speak well of the social attitudes I encountered among most
Southern women, black or white. When I lived there (about 10 to 20 years ago)
there was still this strange tabu against interracial dating. Given the low
numbers of Asian-Americans there, I was reading novels a lot of Saturday
nights. (Oddly, when I was in the Navy, several of the white Southerners I
knew had Korean or Japanese wives, so perhaps the closed-mindedness was limited
to the women, or the tendency to join the military is linked somehow to greater
open-mindedness)
My fortunes with interracial dating have been markedly better in the Northeast
(my girlfriend now is a Connecticut Yankee) and the SF Bay area. My guess is
it has something to do with the greater level of sophistication among people
generally in these areas (yeah, yeah, go ahead and flame me, Southerners) and
the presence of a "critical mass" of Asian-Americans, enough to make meeting
one an everyday, ho-hum experience.
My $0.02.
The Devil's Advocate
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:04:59 GMT, roz...@hotmail.com wrote:
>I have had many friendships with white women and believe, that even if you
>remove the issue of black men from the equation our life experiences are
>simply so different that it really takes a conscious effort on my behalf to
>maintain these friendships.
I am a black man and for me, I can say there is a fair share of whites
and blacks that it would take a conscious effort to befriend. Since
there is so much cultural varience even within an ethnicity, e.g.,
poor vs. weatlhy, rural vs. urban, conservative vs. liberal, etc.,
there are always going to be members of one's own group they cannot
relate to. Personally, it taked effort for me to socialise with the
average black ~and~ the average white.
>In general, white women have always been protected, sheltered and treasured
>in this society. Black women, on the other hand, have seldom had this
>benefit. Obviously it is not white women's fault that they are put upon a
>pedestal, but, and this is the same argument I use with those who say that
>their ancestors weren't slaveholders and therefore racism is not their fault,
>to that argument I usually respond that anyone in this society who is born
>with white skin benefits from this country's racist legacy. White women, by
>virtue of being white have a substantial leg-up in this society.
Perhaps only in that sense, but I think you are oversimplifying a
tremendously complex issue. Being white per se is an advantage, but
being white per se won't necessarily get you anywhere either I'm sure.
Just as being black per se won't necessarily mean you are doomed to
shine shoes.
> Despite the
>fact that we have similar issues in common, a white woman is always going to
>be better off than a black woman, even if education and income are equal.
>When I hear a white woman bitch or moan about something, I instinctively
>smirk, and ask myself "What is is she complaining about? All she has to be
>is white, and the world assumes that she is worthy. Simply because I am
>black, the world assumes I'm unworthy and I have to go out and do battle to
>prove myself daily."
I talk show host I like said once about minoritie's perception of
whites that they assume that being born white means you've got it
made, not realising that there are millions of whites out there
struggling to make ends meet, millions and possibly even the majority
only a few paychecks from bankruptcy. Is there a privilage in being
white? Of course, but is race the only thing that can be a personal
asset? NO. There's an advantage in being intelligent, in being
cordially and well-mannered, in being wise, in knowing how the world
works, in your ability to socialise and network, in being attractive,
or even in being tall(did you know that most CEOs are at least 6ft.
tall?). What I'm saying is that being black doesn't doom you to being
valued less and being white doesn't automatically mean you are in the
promised land. I'd rather be black, intelligent, attractive, cordially
and social than be white, dumb, unattractive, rude and socially inept.
Which person do you think will be advantaged?
>
>I do not believe you will see black women and white women befriending each
>other in substantial numbers until the playing field is more level. After
>all, we don't see white men and black men hanging together that often either.
> Its a matter of inequality. As long as this is true, there will be a
>separation.
In the real world, you may very well be right. But if we can only
relate to those that are in exactly the same socio-cultural-economic
background as us, then I think we are in trouble. We need to all think
of ourselves as human first so that we can relate across to others.
The Devil's Advocate
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:28:49 GMT, Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
<nospam...@bellsouth.netnospam> wrote:
>One thing that I have noticed is that, with a lot of Asians and Pacific
>Islanders, there is a definite "pecking order" that they will adhere
>to. They will date/marry others of thier own ethnicity first, then
>other Asians/Pacific Islanders, then whites (in this group, I am also
>counting Jews, since Ashkenazi Jews are not really Semitic, but
>European). With Asians/Pacific Islanders (and Jews for that matter),
>blacks are ALWAYS at the bottom of the totem pole.
That heirarchy seems pretty ubiquitous with all non-blacks. What do
you think the heirachy is for black preference? I assume that most
blacks perfer other blacks, then what? I might assume maybe Hispanics,
then whites, then Asians. That's pretty much my heirachy even though I
prefer Hispanic women almost equally to black women and at times even
more.
>> "Birds of a feather....."
>>
>> I really don't care for this mentality. That is what causes me to be
>> against black nationalism and all forms of nationalism. I don't like
>> the micro, regionalised way of thinking and would rather see people
>> being broadminded.
>It is very easy to say that you admire a "broadminded" perspective when
>you are very secure in your history and your identitiy. Years of
>Eurocentric education have left many nonwhites in the USA alienated from
>thier own pasts; as a black male myself (well, as "black" as a
>Russian/Native American/African person can be), I can fully understand
>why other nonwhites would want to espouse a sort of nationalism, since
>the pendulum must swing both ways in order to rest in the middle.
You make some good well thought out points in your rebuttal. I didn't
think much of it, but yes, at one time I was a black nationalist and
had radical views, now I've come to become quite irritated with those
types, in part because I know where they are coming from, am familiar
with all their arguments(possibly even understanding their arguments
better than they even do), but knowing how wrong they are.
>Black
>Nationalism is not a totaly organic thought; it is a reaction to years
>of constant discrimination in the USA, and a desire to correct, not
>revise, our own histories.
True. But nationalism in and of itself is always a bad idea. Btw,
because I say I am not a black nationalist doesn't mean I don't have
concern for any plight of black people. It means I consider myself
human first, Western second and perhaps black third. I don't see the
world through race-tinted goggles. When I am pondering controversial
issues such as affirmative action, I don't ask myself, "Is it good for
race?" rather I ask, "Is it good?"
>>There's nothing I admire more than a cosmopolite.
>> Someone who can speak more than one language, is familiar with
>> different customs around the world, who has travelled, who
>> participates in other culture's festivals and knows the ways of the
>> world. Such people are rare and always a joy to meet.
>Like I said before, it is easy to be a cosmopolitan person when you have
>been taught the truth about yourself, and you have been taught to be
>proud of yourself as a person.
You may very well be right here.
>Most nonwhites in this country have not
>had this luxery. Untill we see an end to racism in this country,
>nonwhite nationalism will persist.
I urge all blacks to be concerned about their history, where they fit
in this society and their future. As well as other groups asking the
same question. But when nationlism starts to arise, it tends to amount
to people withdrawling into an enclave where unless something is
relevant to blackness, than it is not really important. Just like some
of my black nationalist friends were surprised to find out back in the
day that I liked rock music, or in some way thought that it
compromised my "black authenticity." There's nothing more refreshing
than meeting people who love all kinds of music, art, architecture,
language, etc., and aren't highly critical of those who participate in
something outside of the enclave.
>>This is the
>> exact opposite of the ethnocentric enclaves that I find too often.
>Refer to my points above. The reason that there are enclaves is because
>the larger society - in our case, the Eurocentric American society -
Although I used to call America Eurocentric, this is a term I have
come to drop upon my realisation upon speaking to people how different
white Americans are from Europeans. And that people living in Buenos
Aires or Algiers are probably more Europeanised than most white
Americans. Much of the cultural greats of Europe aren't alive here in
the same way such as monumental and beautifully aging architecture,
well designed cities, and the same level of high culture. Most whites
here feel that America is inherantly superior to Europe.
>has, for the longest time, refused to recognize most nonwhites as thier
>equals. They have actively opressed the various nonwhites, and, as of
>this date, show little sign of being willing to stop the racist
>oppression
This is going too far for me. Although I know that racism exist, I
don't believe that blacks or any other ethnic groups here are
"oppressed." And trust me, I used to strongly feel the exact opposite,
but have come to realise that the majority of problems blacks are
facing come from within. Anybody that has lived in the ghetto at one
time such as I most know that there are some serious intraracial
issues that most be dealt with in the black community. For example,
80% of black children in Harlem don't have fathers raising them, and
this isn't something that can be blamed on the white man. Or the high
crime rates of the inner city and poor educational performance.
>(in the form of, not only social policies, but the numbers of
>fringe, right-wing orginizations that have been allowed to flourish
>openly in our society under the protection of the First Amendment
Well you can't stop people's right to form a right wing fringe group.
>). So
>I ask you this: having experianced such treatment at the hands of
>whites, who should we seek to live with, to work with and to congregate
>with?
I say with anybody that is nice, cordially and pleasant be they white,
black of brown. There are as many blacks willing to screw over a black
person as there are whites willing to do so.
>In a perfect world, your open admiration of the cosmopolite would be
>understandable. But given the present reality, it seems to be more
>reactionistic than enlightened.
The word "reactionistic" deserves some qualification. This superlative
has right-wing connotations and I can tell you that cosmopolitanism is
anything but right-wing in nature. Nationalism is the the nature of
the right and cosmopolitanism is the opponent of nationlism. Check out
the section on my webpage dealing with this issue, the url is in the
sig.
> Since you are secure of yourself, you
>cannot see why everyone cannot be secure of themselves to the point of
>actively seeking out and participating in others culures as well. I
>have news for you: for the last twenty+ generations, most African and
>Native Americans have not been practising "thier own" culures, but
>rather, that of the dominating Eurocentic society.
If you mean African in the cultural sense, then they live in Africa.
Most blacks living in America are as American as baseball and have no
more in common with a rural Ghanian than a white American or a Swede.
And most blacks in America wouldn't want to become African either.
African-American culture is a subset of American culture. To me the
heirachy goes like this:
Western-->N.European-->American-->African-American.
>The fact that a
>black person or a Native American would espouse Nationalism and seek to
>return to thier "roots" should surprise no one; one might indeed ask why
>more blacks
Black nationalist don't seem to be returning to their "roots" or else
they would be at the Nigerian embassy trying to get back to Africa and
hopefully melt back into a tribal society. Black nationlist to me are
well-intentioned people that work for the interest of black people,
but simply go too far and often even cross the threshold into hatred,
such as Farrakhan.
>and Native Americans aren't doing it.
Native Americans are in a unique situation all their own. Many that
call themselves Native Americans are essential Americans by choice
that want to hold on to a part of their native heritage. Most NAs I've
met wear American clothes, eat American food and don't have much
interest going back to a tribal lifestyle in the Utah desert. I
respect their plight and have a great deal of interest in them.
>> They probably are as well toward BF/WM couples too. But since there
>> are so much fewer of these, you don't find it as much.
>Actualy, in my personal experiances, I have found a double standard to
>exist in that aspect. While many black women don't like to see "thier"
>black men with a white woman, I have found that, with many black women
>that I have known, having a white man is something of a status symbol;
>they seem to think that, with a white man at thier sides, that they will
>"make it" in life.
This is something I've yet to have seen. Most black women I've come
across would have an attitude like, "Ugghhh....how can that sista kiss
a white man?"
>>
>> I've never noticed anywhere near the same level of anger that BW have
>> when they see a black man with a Hispanic, Phillipina or other
>> non-white woman. If the black man or woman is from Africa and involved
>> with a white, they don't look at it the same either. And I would guess
>> black woman would probably react less if they saw a black man with a
>> white woman that was from Europe.
>
>I think that the reaction on this last point would be about the same.
>If the black man was from Europe, as well as the white woman, then your
>statement would be true. And black people tend to view Hispanics,
>Native Americans and your "darker" Asians (except for Indians) as
>"brother races," hence, the lack of animosity when confronted with a
>pairing with one of these races.
Perhaps.
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
The Devil's Advocate wrote:
>
>
> >I have had many friendships with white women and believe, that even if you
> >remove the issue of black men from the equation our life experiences are
> >simply so different that it really takes a conscious effort on my behalf to
> >maintain these friendships.
>
> I am a black man and for me, I can say there is a fair share of whites
> and blacks that it would take a conscious effort to befriend. Since
> there is so much cultural varience even within an ethnicity, e.g.,
> poor vs. weatlhy, rural vs. urban, conservative vs. liberal, etc.,
> there are always going to be members of one's own group they cannot
> relate to. Personally, it taked effort for me to socialise with the
> average black ~and~ the average white.
basic issue here: that two black people, regardless of personal
experiances, are a little bit more likely to find that they have
something in common in which to base a friendship than a white person
and a black person. Simply being of two different races in this country
is enough to cause there to be difference.
> >In general, white women have always been protected, sheltered and treasured
> >in this society. Black women, on the other hand, have seldom had this
> >benefit. Obviously it is not white women's fault that they are put upon a
> >pedestal, but, and this is the same argument I use with those who say that
> >their ancestors weren't slaveholders and therefore racism is not their fault,
> >to that argument I usually respond that anyone in this society who is born
> >with white skin benefits from this country's racist legacy. White women, by
> >virtue of being white have a substantial leg-up in this society.
>
> Perhaps only in that sense, but I think you are oversimplifying a
> tremendously complex issue. Being white per se is an advantage, but
> being white per se won't necessarily get you anywhere either I'm sure.
> Just as being black per se won't necessarily mean you are doomed to
> shine shoes.
condition still exists) being white was the only advantage that a person
needed in order to be considered worthy of recieving the most basic of
rights, and being black, or other than white, was all the justification
that a racist needed to deny someone those basic rights. If there was
not an inherant advantage to being white and male, or an inherant
diadvantage to being other than white or male, then current
antidiscrimination legislation and Affirmative Action would not be
required. I would not call this oversimplifying, I would call it
cutting past the equivocations and getting to the heart of the matter.
> > Despite the
> >fact that we have similar issues in common, a white woman is always going to
> >be better off than a black woman, even if education and income are equal.
> >When I hear a white woman bitch or moan about something, I instinctively
> >smirk, and ask myself "What is is she complaining about? All she has to be
> >is white, and the world assumes that she is worthy. Simply because I am
> >black, the world assumes I'm unworthy and I have to go out and do battle to
> >prove myself daily."
>
> I talk show host I like said once about minoritie's perception of
> whites that they assume that being born white means you've got it
> made, not realising that there are millions of whites out there
> struggling to make ends meet, millions and possibly even the majority
> only a few paychecks from bankruptcy.
reality, there are millions of struggling white people out there with
less education than some blacks, but en percepionale, I will bet you
that these whites will be seen as being more worthy of aid than the
blacks who are in thier same shoes. When a white person is in that
situation, it is always due to "downsizing", "missed opportunities" and
the like. The way that the media portrays blacks who are in that
situation is "I never had a job", "generations on welfare", "teenage
pregnancies" and the like. Another example? Seven school shootings in
the past year and a half,all at white schools. National outrage, pity,
media asking why. Black children have been attacked and dying everyday
in black inner city schools for years - and just barely a nod from the
media. Is this a value of perception or a measure of reality? i would
say the former.
> Is there a privilage in being
> white? Of course, but is race the only thing that can be a personal
> asset? NO. There's an advantage in being intelligent, in being
> cordially and well-mannered, in being wise, in knowing how the world
> works, in your ability to socialise and network, in being attractive,
> or even in being tall(did you know that most CEOs are at least 6ft.
> tall?). What I'm saying is that being black doesn't doom you to being
> valued less and being white doesn't automatically mean you are in the
> promised land.
> I'd rather be black, intelligent, attractive, cordially
> and social than be white, dumb, unattractive, rude and socially inept.
> Which person do you think will be advantaged?
better have all of his/hers Ps and Qs, or else he or she will find that
socialy inept white vaulting past them!
> >
> >I do not believe you will see black women and white women befriending each
> >other in substantial numbers until the playing field is more level. After
> >all, we don't see white men and black men hanging together that often either.
> > Its a matter of inequality. As long as this is true, there will be a
> >separation.
>
> In the real world, you may very well be right. But if we can only
> relate to those that are in exactly the same socio-cultural-economic
> background as us, then I think we are in trouble. We need to all think
--
Alexia I.K.
roz...@hotmail.com
Devil's Advocate: I don't think you read my post very closely, or you would
realize that I am the last person on earth to subscribe to the "Oh woe is me,
I'm a poor downtrodden black person." I realize that there are many poor
uneducated white people. And yes, there are many black women I would have a
hard time relating to. But if you read my post you should quickly realize
that I was speaking in generalities regarding the perceptions of society--not
my own beliefs. I certainly don't feel that the average white woman, simply
by virtue of being white is a better "catch" so to speak, than the average
black woman. But I guarantee that in the eyes of "most" of American society
she would be.
I've also heard the argument from white women that if they don't meet the
physical ideal, that is a size 8, then they are dismissed also. I would be
forced to argue that at least the option of losing weight is there for them if
they wish to be considered the "beauty ideal" of society. The average black
woman, short of Jacksonian plastic surgery, cannot hope to attain this. And
even then, she would at best be considered "second best."
If one did a nationwide stratified poll of American men, with various ethnic
groups by their representation in the general population, and asked them to
compare two compatibly matched women, (size, looks, education,
sophistication, etc...) one black, one white as to their desirability, the
white woman would win hands down. Even worse, this would also be true, even
if the black woman was significantly more attractive (same variables) than
the white woman. Perhaps this wouldn't be such a big deal if this were only
true in the majority population, i.e. white men, but when its also true
amongst minority men, its very frustrating.
It's very hard on the psyche to be considered second best, no matter what you
do. I also realize that there is more to life than one's attractiveness to
men, but in the real world, where most women are seeking a loving mate, the
odds are significantly stacked against the woman of color. She could have a
doctorate, the beauty of Naomi Campbell, cure AIDS and single-handedly pilot
the Space Shuttle, and the most uneducated, unattractive white woman would
still have more value in society.
No, Devil's Advocate, this is not something I go around thinking about every
day, and I'm much too busy with my own love life (primarily with white men)
to be having a pity party, but I think it is the best explanation for the
division between black and white females.
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
Well, we could go on forever!!!
The Devil's Advocate wrote:
>
> <nospam...@bellsouth.netnospam> wrote:
>
> >One thing that I have noticed is that, with a lot of Asians and Pacific
> >Islanders, there is a definite "pecking order" that they will adhere
> >to. They will date/marry others of thier own ethnicity first, then
> >other Asians/Pacific Islanders, then whites (in this group, I am also
> >counting Jews, since Ashkenazi Jews are not really Semitic, but
> >European). With Asians/Pacific Islanders (and Jews for that matter),
> >blacks are ALWAYS at the bottom of the totem pole.
>
> That heirarchy seems pretty ubiquitous with all non-blacks. What do
> you think the heirachy is for black preference? I assume that most
> blacks perfer other blacks, then what? I might assume maybe Hispanics,
> then whites, then Asians. That's pretty much my heirachy even though I
> prefer Hispanic women almost equally to black women and at times even
> more.
black/white/Hispanic/Asian. But that is in terms of physical
apperaence, and I try not to base my judgment on that alone. (Notice I
said try.) I have married my white wife, not because of her race, but
because she is a caring, kind person, and I feel that I have a lot to
offer her in return. I wish everyone could think in those terms.
> >> "Birds of a feather....."
> >>
> >> I really don't care for this mentality. That is what causes me to be
> >> against black nationalism and all forms of nationalism. I don't like
> >> the micro, regionalised way of thinking and would rather see people
> >> being broadminded.
> >It is very easy to say that you admire a "broadminded" perspective when
> >you are very secure in your history and your identitiy. Years of
> >Eurocentric education have left many nonwhites in the USA alienated from
> >thier own pasts; as a black male myself (well, as "black" as a
> >Russian/Native American/African person can be), I can fully understand
> >why other nonwhites would want to espouse a sort of nationalism, since
> >the pendulum must swing both ways in order to rest in the middle.
>
> You make some good well thought out points in your rebuttal. I didn't
> think much of it, but yes, at one time I was a black nationalist and
> had radical views, now I've come to become quite irritated with those
> types, in part because I know where they are coming from, am familiar
> with all their arguments(possibly even understanding their arguments
> better than they even do), but knowing how wrong they are.
do, I feel that I am American before I am black. However, I can
understand why Nationalists feel the way that they do, and will not
fault them for thier beliefs for as long as the expression of those
beliefs do not prove to be harmfull to society.
> >Black
> >Nationalism is not a totaly organic thought; it is a reaction to years
> >of constant discrimination in the USA, and a desire to correct, not
> >revise, our own histories.
>
> True. But nationalism in and of itself is always a bad idea. Btw,
> because I say I am not a black nationalist doesn't mean I don't have
> concern for any plight of black people. It means I consider myself
> human first, Western second and perhaps black third. I don't see the
> world through race-tinted goggles. When I am pondering controversial
> issues such as affirmative action, I don't ask myself, "Is it good for
> race?" rather I ask, "Is it good?"
far as controversial issues go, I tend to substitue the word "good" with
the word "right" or "just." To me, "good" is too open to perception
(unless you have read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainace" and
"Layla")
> >>There's nothing I admire more than a cosmopolite.
> >> Someone who can speak more than one language, is familiar with
> >> different customs around the world, who has travelled, who
> >> participates in other culture's festivals and knows the ways of the
> >> world. Such people are rare and always a joy to meet.
> >Like I said before, it is easy to be a cosmopolitan person when you have
> >been taught the truth about yourself, and you have been taught to be
> >proud of yourself as a person.
>
> You may very well be right here.
>
> >Most nonwhites in this country have not
> >had this luxery. Untill we see an end to racism in this country,
> >nonwhite nationalism will persist.
>
> I urge all blacks to be concerned about their history, where they fit
> in this society and their future. As well as other groups asking the
> same question. But when nationlism starts to arise, it tends to amount
> to people withdrawling into an enclave where unless something is
> relevant to blackness, than it is not really important. Just like some
> of my black nationalist friends were surprised to find out back in the
> day that I liked rock music, or in some way thought that it
> compromised my "black authenticity." There's nothing more refreshing
> than meeting people who love all kinds of music, art, architecture,
> language, etc., and aren't highly critical of those who participate in
> something outside of the enclave.
Rock music? Didn't blacks invent that?
> >>This is the
> >> exact opposite of the ethnocentric enclaves that I find too often.
> >Refer to my points above. The reason that there are enclaves is because
> >the larger society - in our case, the Eurocentric American society -
>
> Although I used to call America Eurocentric, this is a term I have
> come to drop upon my realisation upon speaking to people how different
> white Americans are from Europeans. And that people living in Buenos
> Aires or Algiers are probably more Europeanised than most white
> Americans. Much of the cultural greats of Europe aren't alive here in
> the same way such as monumental and beautifully aging architecture,
> well designed cities, and the same level of high culture. Most whites
> here feel that America is inherantly superior to Europe.
most whites will be glad to tell you which European country thier
forefathers came from (my wifes family is very proud of thier Irish
roots). Also, when American History is discussed, a history that is
supposed to encompas all American peoples, guess what continent recieves
the most attention? You got it - Europe. You never hear anything about
Mali or the Senegal, or that much about China or Japan, or even the
accomplishments of the Sioux or Iriquois for that matter. Most
Americans still seem to feel that the history of this continent began
with the infamous arrival of that lost guy in 1492. That is what I mean
by Eurocentric.
> >has, for the longest time, refused to recognize most nonwhites as thier
> >equals. They have actively opressed the various nonwhites, and, as of
> >this date, show little sign of being willing to stop the racist
> >oppression
>
> This is going too far for me. Although I know that racism exist, I
> don't believe that blacks or any other ethnic groups here are
> "oppressed." And trust me, I used to strongly feel the exact opposite,
> but have come to realise that the majority of problems blacks are
> facing come from within. Anybody that has lived in the ghetto at one
> time such as I most know that there are some serious intraracial
> issues that most be dealt with in the black community. For example,
> 80% of black children in Harlem don't have fathers raising them, and
> this isn't something that can be blamed on the white man. Or the high
> crime rates of the inner city and poor educational performance.
policies of Anglo-Americans in actively denying thier darker brethren
the equal opportunities to resources such as higher education and jobs.
And while overt racism may be receeding, the subtler, more
institutionalized, type remains.
> >(in the form of, not only social policies, but the numbers of
> >fringe, right-wing orginizations that have been allowed to flourish
> >openly in our society under the protection of the First Amendment
>
> Well you can't stop people's right to form a right wing fringe group.
bit more in aggresively pursuing these people. We speak out against
violence on the television and pornography more than we speak out
against the KKK and WAR, and all of these are, in some shape or form,
expressions of free speech. Yet we seem to think that exposing our
children to naked bodies and violent images is more dangerous than
exposing them to racist ideology; I would say that they danger is the
same.
> >). So
> >I ask you this: having experianced such treatment at the hands of
> >whites, who should we seek to live with, to work with and to congregate
> >with?
>
> I say with anybody that is nice, cordially and pleasant be they white,
> black of brown. There are as many blacks willing to screw over a black
> person as there are whites willing to do so.
>
> >In a perfect world, your open admiration of the cosmopolite would be
> >understandable. But given the present reality, it seems to be more
> >reactionistic than enlightened.
>
> The word "reactionistic" deserves some qualification. This superlative
> has right-wing connotations and I can tell you that cosmopolitanism is
> anything but right-wing in nature. Nationalism is the the nature of
> the right and cosmopolitanism is the opponent of nationlism. Check out
> the section on my webpage dealing with this issue, the url is in the
> sig.
open admiration of that lifestyle may be. Since cosmopolitanism can
only be practiced by people who are secure of thier own identities, then
castigating one group of people for not being like that when you know
that, for reasons not nesescarily of thier doing, they are not yet fully
aware of themselves as humans, is reactionist IMHO. Besides, we cannot
lump all cosmpolites in the same "pleasure to be around" category any
more than we can brand all Nationalists with the "racist" tag; to do so
would be overgeneralization. I have met my fair share of cosmoplitian
people who were boorish, elitist and just plain total snobs. As a
group, I neither admire them nor thier lifestyle; I just take each one
as they come along.
> > Since you are secure of yourself, you
> >cannot see why everyone cannot be secure of themselves to the point of
> >actively seeking out and participating in others culures as well. I
> >have news for you: for the last twenty+ generations, most African and
> >Native Americans have not been practising "thier own" culures, but
> >rather, that of the dominating Eurocentic society.
>
> If you mean African in the cultural sense, then they live in Africa.
> Most blacks living in America are as American as baseball and have no
> more in common with a rural Ghanian than a white American or a Swede.
> And most blacks in America wouldn't want to become African either.
> African-American culture is a subset of American culture. To me the
> heirachy goes like this:
>
> Western-->N.European-->American-->African-American.
them generations ago. Blacks and Native Americans were forbidden to
speak thier native tounges or practise thier own religion in front to
the Anglo for many years. Of course I have no more in common with a
Ghanian than does a Swede, but at least I know why, and having found out
why, I have pretty much made my choice to adopt American culture and
values. Many other Africa-Americans have not had the luxery of
knowledge; when they do recieve it, we cannot fault them for making a
choice that we would not have made ourselves.
> >The fact that a
> >black person or a Native American would espouse Nationalism and seek to
> >return to thier "roots" should surprise no one; one might indeed ask why
> >more blacks
>
> Black nationalist don't seem to be returning to their "roots" or else
> they would be at the Nigerian embassy trying to get back to Africa and
> hopefully melt back into a tribal society. Black nationlist to me are
> well-intentioned people that work for the interest of black people,
> but simply go too far and often even cross the threshold into hatred,
> such as Farrakhan.
nationalists may act that way, but the rank and file do not; I know that
there is a "brain drain" of highly educated African Americans who are
leaving America for Africa, yet, if you trust only the media, you will
never really hear about this, nor the rank and file nationlist, just the
most flamboyant ones.
> >and Native Americans aren't doing it.
>
> Native Americans are in a unique situation all their own. Many that
> call themselves Native Americans are essential Americans by choice
> that want to hold on to a part of their native heritage. Most NAs I've
> met wear American clothes, eat American food and don't have much
> interest going back to a tribal lifestyle in the Utah desert. I
> respect their plight and have a great deal of interest in them.
>
> >> They probably are as well toward BF/WM couples too. But since there
> >> are so much fewer of these, you don't find it as much.
> >Actualy, in my personal experiances, I have found a double standard to
> >exist in that aspect. While many black women don't like to see "thier"
> >black men with a white woman, I have found that, with many black women
> >that I have known, having a white man is something of a status symbol;
> >they seem to think that, with a white man at thier sides, that they will
> >"make it" in life.
>
> This is something I've yet to have seen. Most black women I've come
> across would have an attitude like, "Ugghhh....how can that sista kiss
> a white man?"
of the people that I have met.
> >>
> >> I've never noticed anywhere near the same level of anger that BW have
> >> when they see a black man with a Hispanic, Phillipina or other
> >> non-white woman. If the black man or woman is from Africa and involved
> >> with a white, they don't look at it the same either. And I would guess
> >> black woman would probably react less if they saw a black man with a
> >> white woman that was from Europe.
> >
> >I think that the reaction on this last point would be about the same.
> >If the black man was from Europe, as well as the white woman, then your
> >statement would be true. And black people tend to view Hispanics,
> >Native Americans and your "darker" Asians (except for Indians) as
> >"brother races," hence, the lack of animosity when confronted with a
> >pairing with one of these races.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> Remove NO-JUNK to email
> <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
> "Your Warrant Is In Question"
> -=The Devil's Advocate=-
> http://surf.to/advocate
> <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
--
Alexia I.K.
Special-K
On Mon, 1 Jun 1998 dmb...@connext.net wrote:
> And how is it that black women have been more independent than white women?
> Believe me honey, white women are equally as independent... Let's not turn
> this into a "us vs. them" dialogue... Contrary to popular stereotypes, we
> white women are no "push overs" nor do we "need" a man to survive..and most of
> us are equally as demanding; demanding to be treated right in a relationship.
> So let's not go there...
>
> Deb
When the original post-(person) of this message said black women
were independent, I'm not interpreting that as white women being
push-overs. Look at it from this perspective. Historically,
black women have always HAD to work outside of the home. If it
wasn't through slavery (and contrary to popular belief, there
were no gender differences made when it came to slave owners
demanding individual work out-put), then black women were domestic
servants all the way up until the middle of this century. I'm
speaking of the middle class, now. The white middle class,
on the other hand, geared and raised women around marriage and
having men (white men) be the breadwinner of the family. And, I
will tie this in with "independence".
In black families (and I will get you literary ref. if you
request it), black women are rarely taught or pressured to marry
(as little girls) as often as white women because gaining employment is
more important than finding a mate due to the fact of the high
incarceration rate of black males and the chances that a wide-range
of black men, due to many social factors, cannot be major breadwinners
in their households. (The reason why I pair black women and black
men together is because, statistically, people are more likely to
practice endogamy.) It is this philosophy that encourages black
parents to place more value on their daughters surviving economically
after they themselves are gone and placing a man as secondary priority in
a woman's life. If you haven't caught on, this is how boys are raised--
white, black, Asian, Latino, etc.-- that getting employment (and in
modern times, an education) comes before marriage.
This will lead to another point to explain the stereotypical
black female assertiveness: there is only a slight degree of gender
socialization in black families (in the U.S.) more so than any
other racial group. It is so slight that it is noteworthy in
social work family therapy practice manuals in dealing with
ethnic (or non-white) homes the fact that black women, on a
macro-level, cannot depend on black men to provide to the same
degree that white men can provide for white women. A lack of
a strong degree of gender socialization for behavior shows
all of us where we get our stereotypes of the tough, "ghetto",
or "unfeminine" black woman-- she is none of the above, but
rather, she was raised, literally, no different than her male
siblings and demonstrating "male" personality attributes tends
to look "funny" on women in our society.
Taking all of this in, white women are new women in the field
of independence. It has only been within the last 25 years
that white women have penetrated the workforce on a wide-scale.
(Black women have been in the workforce since the late 1500's.)
Having women work creates a certain attitude for women and their
independence that is vastly different than being a homemaker,
as MIDDLE class white women have been expected to be until the
Women's Movement and 1970's in general. In addition to this,
what was taught in my Africology/Women's Studies course,
African-American & European-American Women in the Contemp. U.S.,
up until two decades ago, higher education for white women
was a means to meet future [white] husbands and to gain
culture in order to be a better wife.
All the things I've pointed out (and had to point out) with the
socialized work ethic of women, gender socialization (white women
in the middle class have always had the "comfort" of being
women-- provided for while being at home raising children
and the feminine things that go along with it), the reasons
for achieving higher education (black women, first reason
to find a job/ white women, significant, but not necessarily
first, reason to find a mate), have to do with how females
are acculturated.
White women today are in fact, different from white women
a couple decades ago. They are more independent. I just
gave the history of this independence (the Women's Movement
being a major savior to white women). But, because black
men look at the fact that black women, on the one hand,
have rarely been allowed to express their femininity
(only in modern times can one be feminine and work), and
on the other hand, white femininity has been so greatly
encouraged, that some people do feel that white women
are less independent or weaker, historically. White
women, black women, whatever, they're all women and
individual women vary in strength and independence.
Keep in mind, though, that from a male perspective, even though
heterosexual men love feminine women, all things feminine are
weak and helpless and in spite of the fact that those heterosexual
women who embrace it will be loved and desired most, they also
won't be as revered. In our society, masculine personality traits
are revered most, look at corportate exec.'s and male sports.
This is (or could be) the thinking of many black men and
their perceptions of white women-- historically feminine
(image of being protected), but since they're men coming
from women and raised around women who didn't have this
benefit, they wonder "Is this a trait to be taken
seriously and respected?" Think about it. I hear black
men expressing similar stereotypes of the one I've hinted
above. It's my personal opinion that it is a complex
thought, resting on all the things that have happened
throughout American history.
*When I refer to things feminine as weak and helpless,
I'm placing myself in a perspective outside of my own
and trying to get a feel for the attitudes I see
demonstrated by men and what I've read.
dmb...@connext.net
In article <35803a51...@news.earthlink.net>,
soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK wrote:
>
> On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:28:49 GMT, Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
> <nospam...@bellsouth.netnospam> wrote:
> I urge all blacks to be concerned about their history, where they fit
> in this society and their future. As well as other groups asking the
> same question. But when nationlism starts to arise, it tends to amount
> to people withdrawling into an enclave where unless something is
> relevant to blackness, than it is not really important. Just like some
> of my black nationalist friends were surprised to find out back in the
> day that I liked rock music, or in some way thought that it
> compromised my "black authenticity." There's nothing more refreshing
> than meeting people who love all kinds of music, art, architecture,
> language, etc., and aren't highly critical of those who participate in
> something outside of the enclave.
I can totally identify with this paragraph... Well said.
>
> > Since you are secure of yourself, you
> >cannot see why everyone cannot be secure of themselves to the point of
> >actively seeking out and participating in others culures as well. I
> >have news for you: for the last twenty+ generations, most African and
> >Native Americans have not been practising "thier own" culures, but
> >rather, that of the dominating Eurocentic society.
True, most Native Americans have not been practicing "their own" cultures. I
am a tribal member of the Aroostook Band of MicMacs, originating in Northern
Maine and Nova Scotia. My family and I sought out every native event occuring
in that region (I have since moved away; 7 months ago). Native Americans are
very much a displaced and fragmented people.
> Native Americans are in a unique situation all their own. Many that
> call themselves Native Americans are essential Americans by choice
> that want to hold on to a part of their native heritage. Most NAs I've
> met wear American clothes, eat American food and don't have much
> interest going back to a tribal lifestyle in the Utah desert. I
> respect their plight and have a great deal of interest in them.
No, most don't have any desire to return to the Utah desert (assuming their
tribe didn't originate there to begin with..). :-) Far too many Native
Americans find it difficult to connect with others within their own tribe
except for annual or semi-annual Pow Wows and other such "commercialized"
cultural events. Most of us don't live near our tribe's reservation and in my
case, its location is in an isolated and desolate (in my opinion) area of my
home state. It's easy to lose one's culture when you aren't around people who
share its traditions/customs/beliefs on a regular basis. You hold on to what
you can, though...and, as in my case, walk around through life being
perceived as strictly "white."
> >I think that the reaction on this last point would be about the same.
> >If the black man was from Europe, as well as the white woman, then your
> >statement would be true. And black people tend to view Hispanics,
> >Native Americans and your "darker" Asians (except for Indians) as
> >"brother races," hence, the lack of animosity when confronted with a
> >pairing with one of these races.
>
> Perhaps.
Are we speaking of Native Americans who wear traditional clothing? The ones
who are obvious in their appearance? Most Native Americans I observe have
become acclimatized in this country...rendering themselves to be almost
exclusively part of the dominant cultures in America...white or black,
specifically. And most blacks and whites wouldn't recognize many Native
Americans as such and would merely perceive them as "white" or
"black"...despite any obvious features to the contrary. Their Native heritage
is simply overlooked or ignored...
Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
dmb...@connext.net wrote:
>
> In article <35803a51...@news.earthlink.net>,
> soca...@earthlink.netNO-JUNK wrote:
> >
> > <nospam...@bellsouth.netnospam> wrote:
>
> > I urge all blacks to be concerned about their history, where they fit
> > in this society and their future. As well as other groups asking the
> > same question. But when nationlism starts to arise, it tends to amount
> > to people withdrawling into an enclave where unless something is
> > relevant to blackness, than it is not really important. Just like some
> > of my black nationalist friends were surprised to find out back in the
> > day that I liked rock music, or in some way thought that it
> > compromised my "black authenticity." There's nothing more refreshing
> > than meeting people who love all kinds of music, art, architecture,
> > language, etc., and aren't highly critical of those who participate in
> > something outside of the enclave.
>
as being the extreme opposite of nationalism; insted of subordinating
all other cultures to your own, you subordinate yourself to all other
cultures. While I would like to admire a person who follows all
ultures, I cannot help but think that the cosmopolitian person really
has no culture to call thier own (except for the hazy amalgm called
"World Culture"). I would like to think that there is a happy medium.
And besides, a person who is truly cosmopolitan is by definition an
elitist; they can afford to dedicate the time and money that it takes to
study the other culures in depth, from a first-person sort of view, and
emulate them. Thiers is not, and never will be, the life of the masses.
While the masses may respect other cultures besides thier own, they will
never truly be considered to be cosmopolitan in outlook because they
don't practise them. Insted of focusing our attentions on those who are
able to lead that sort of leisurly, cosmopolitan sort of life (Think or
"Wilson" on Home Improvement), we should focus our attentions on those
who are unable to, and see what we can do to help them help themselves
become better people. IMHO, of course.
> >
> > > Since you are secure of yourself, you
> > >cannot see why everyone cannot be secure of themselves to the point of
> > >actively seeking out and participating in others culures as well. I
> > >have news for you: for the last twenty+ generations, most African and
> > >Native Americans have not been practising "thier own" culures, but
> > >rather, that of the dominating Eurocentic society.
>
> am a tribal member of the Aroostook Band of MicMacs, originating in Northern
> Maine and Nova Scotia. My family and I sought out every native event occuring
> in that region (I have since moved away; 7 months ago). Native Americans are
> very much a displaced and fragmented people.
>
> > call themselves Native Americans are essential Americans by choice
> > that want to hold on to a part of their native heritage. Most NAs I've
> > met wear American clothes, eat American food and don't have much
> > interest going back to a tribal lifestyle in the Utah desert. I
> > respect their plight and have a great deal of interest in them.
>
> tribe didn't originate there to begin with..). :-) Far too many Native
> Americans find it difficult to connect with others within their own tribe
> except for annual or semi-annual Pow Wows and other such "commercialized"
> cultural events. Most of us don't live near our tribe's reservation and in my
> case, its location is in an isolated and desolate (in my opinion) area of my
> home state. It's easy to lose one's culture when you aren't around people who
> share its traditions/customs/beliefs on a regular basis. You hold on to what
> you can, though...and, as in my case, walk around through life being
> perceived as strictly "white."
>
> > >If the black man was from Europe, as well as the white woman, then your
> > >statement would be true. And black people tend to view Hispanics,
> > >Native Americans and your "darker" Asians (except for Indians) as
> > >"brother races," hence, the lack of animosity when confronted with a
> > >pairing with one of these races.
> >
> > Perhaps.
>
> who are obvious in their appearance? Most Native Americans I observe have
> become acclimatized in this country...rendering themselves to be almost
> exclusively part of the dominant cultures in America...white or black,
> specifically. And most blacks and whites wouldn't recognize many Native
> Americans as such and would merely perceive them as "white" or
> "black"...despite any obvious features to the contrary. Their Native heritage
> is simply overlooked or ignored...
What I was referring to was the assumption that a black female who saw a
black man with a white European, vice American woman, would react
differently than she would if the same black male was with an American
white woman. It is still my contention that the reaction would be the
same if the black male was an American vice being an Europen.
--
Alexia I.K.
The Devil's Advocate
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:34:58 GMT, Alexia Ivanovich Kamchatka
<nospam...@bellsouth.netnospam> wrote:
>I would like to be able to echo your setiment, but I see cosmopolitanism
>as being the extreme opposite of nationalism; insted of subordinating
>all other cultures to your own, you subordinate yourself to all other
>cultures.
No, there is no subordination, at least not necessarily. I don't feel
as though I'm subordinated to anyone else's culture. It means that I
don't walk around with regionalised prejudices and realise that there
are many ways of looking at things and living and don't have the
attitude that "if it ain't American, it's not important," or even "if
ain't black it ain't important." Having lived in smaller towns in
middle America, part of my reaction to nationalism was fueled by the
stupid ultra-patriotic attitudes so prevalent. It's funny, this
coworker of mine was telling me what it was like living in a
super-nationalistic town in New England. He says they basically won't
even talk to you unless your ancestors were on the Mayflower. He also
said that some of these people have such a regionalised mindset that
W. Massachusetts people have prejudice against E. Massachusetts
people. It's plain sick. Having a broader and more world-oriented
mindset seems to be a solution to this sort of thing. It's amazing how
many Americans are oblivious to world politics, or could simply care
less about what's going on in Rwanda, the slaughterings in Algeria or
the riots in Indonesia.
> While I would like to admire a person who follows all
>ultures, I cannot help but think that the cosmopolitian person really
>has no culture to call thier own (except for the hazy amalgm called
>"World Culture").
Only in it's most EXTREME form. But most things are rarely in
extremes, but gradations. Just like in the extremist form of
nationalism, you believe that anything of worth stops after your
country's border. I do have a culture and it is primarily the Western
culture, and then urban American culture. It doesn't get anymore
specific than that, and to be honest, it really doesn't need to. To
me, cosmopolitanism doens't mean giving up all notion of belonging to
a nation, otherwise, I'd be for a one-world government, to me, it
means being having an understanding that your way isn't the only way,
that this is a culturally vibrant world with cultural greats to be
enjoyed that broaden your perspective, and having a genuine interest
in what goes on in the world outside your neighborhood, and not
possessing national/regionalised prejudices. Whether it be a Montanian
disliking newcomers from California(as many do), or Americans hating
Mexico, or a black person criticising another for listening to music
that supposedly isn't black. Such as one of my black friends being
confronted by other blacks because he was wearing a Led Zeppelin
shirt. They asked him, "Are you a real nigga?....then why are you
wearing a Led Zeppelin shirt?"
> I would like to think that there is a happy medium.
>And besides, a person who is truly cosmopolitan is by definition an
>elitist;
Btw, to me the word "elitist" isn't a dirty word even though that
doesn't mean my admission of being an elitist, I'm not sure whether I
believe in elitism or not, but there are some good arguments in favor
of elitism. Have you ever read, "In Defense of Elitism" by William
Herry III?
>they can afford to dedicate the time and money that it takes to
>study the other culures in depth, from a first-person sort of view,
I'm a college student and don't have a great deal of spare cash to
throw around. I don't think it talks money. It's not a material
oriented thing, it's more of a mindset of acceptance and not being so
regionalised and nation-centric.
>and
>emulate them.
I'm not trying to emulate anybody. Participation does not necessarily
mean emulation. On May 25, I was at a big reggae culture festival, the
week before that, I was at a Hawaiin lual, a few weeks ago, I went to
a Chicano arts and music show, things like this don't take wealth. But
people that are so into their own way of things even sometimes to
point of being prejudiced against all things different aren't willing
to enjoy culturally interesting things around us. Now how many small
town Iowans or New Englanders would have any interest in checking out
Chicano art?
>Thiers is not, and never will be, the life of the masses.
>While the masses may respect other cultures besides thier own, they will
>never truly be considered to be cosmopolitan in outlook because they
>don't practise them.
You don't necessarily need to be IN the other persons culture. Btw, I
don't go out of my way to take interest and participate in another
cultural activity just for the sake of doing so, I simply won't STOP
myself from doing so if I happen to find an event or other culture
interesting simply because, "it ain't black enough." And I don't claim
to like all cultures the same or think they are all equal in every
way.
>Insted of focusing our attentions on those who are
>able to lead that sort of leisurly, cosmopolitan sort of life
Being cosmopolitan isn't simply about sitting on the French Riviera
sipping a Martini while reading classic Russian literature and
preparing to go on a Safari. Like I said, it's an attitude and outlook
I think more than a behavior.
>(Think or
>"Wilson" on Home Improvement), we should focus our attentions on those
>who are unable to, and see what we can do to help them help themselves
>become better people. IMHO, of course.
Did you ever think that maybe those that aren't "better people" are
that way because of their own choosing? I think it's human nature to
be regionalised in your way of thinking. This can be exemplified by
everything from WWII to the Hutus vs. Tutsis. It isn't simply a matter
of socio-economics. Human nature is nationalistic, to think, "I am
right, others are wrong, my way of doing things is the only way, all
other ways are deviant."