Simian GAE costs

[Gareth]

Hey all.

Am I correct that running Simian is around $1/yr per client on GAE?

I want to run a couple of hundred Macs and the only cost analysis in this list seems to reference that price.

Cheers

Gareth

[Knut Ahlers]

Hey,

We are at about 0.50 - 1.50 USD per day for ~160 Macs…

Cheers,

  Knut

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[Justin McWilliams]

FYI

App Engine costs will be reduced starting April 1st: https://cloud.google.com/products/app-engine  &&  https://developers.google.com/appengine/pricing

I'd be interested to hear how this effects Simian users, if anyone cares to report in May!

[Benjamin Bolton]

We must be bungling it up somehow. Is there some secret app.yaml sauce that I should be investigating to optimize cost (over a dynamic f1 config)? 

At 120 clients, we're seeing 'Backend Instance Hours' chew away at our demo app engine budget at a fairly alarming rate... despite app engine cost reductions, we're looking at well over what Knut was seeing :/ 

The rule of thumb for $1/year/client that was hypothesized in another thread isn't (yet?) our reality. Any tips?

-Ben

[Michael Holt]

I tweaked my app.yaml, don't have the information in front of me right now regarding the configuration but i'm currently paying $0.80/machine/mo with a fleet of 65 machines currently.  My lowest monthly cost was 
I'm December, I didn't push any updates and only deployed one or two computers and the cost was $43.33 or $0.66/machine.  In October when I first rolled out simian we paid $62.87 or $0.96/machine.  Biggest factor i've noticed is the amount of bandwidth used (varies on how many updates/new computers are deployed). December was my lowest at 3.8gb and October the highest with 44.053gb.  Backend  hours are 800-900 hours per month.  Hope this helps.

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator
(661) 705-4711/ mh...@reallifechurch.org

Real Life Church Office: (661) 775-7401 
23841 Newhall Ranch Rd
Valencia, CA 91355
http://www.reallifechurch.org

This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. Company Name is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.

[Justin McWilliams]

At Google our cost per client has risen since we last shared on this list, but so have our usage patterns, and we're still <$2/client/year.  We use F4 instance class (currently billed at $0.20/instance hour, versus the default F1 at $0.05/instance hour).  Our biggest cost by far is bandwidth, with ~50TB/month outgoing.  We may be getting some economy of scale, however, due to our large fleet size.

$1/client/month seems high, but perhaps that's expected for smaller fleets; more anecdotes would help here.  There may be something else going on as well, so be sure your error logs don't explain unexpected usage.

To scale back costs, you could investigate the following:

- reduce the frequency of client executions (default is every ~hourly).

- reduce the frequency of cron jobs (for example, stats summary is regenerated every 30 mins, but you may be confortable with hourly or even daily)

- host packages on other servers (search simian-discuss@ and Munki's pkginfo docs for "PackageCompleteURL").

If someone in the community wants to lead collecting tips/configs/etc. for smaller shops, we'd happily include in our Wiki.

[Michael Holt]

Thanks for the info! I'll play with it some more soon as I have time 

[Justin McWilliams]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Benjamin Bolton <bbo...@churchcommunitybuilder.com> wrote:

We must be bungling it up somehow. Is there some secret app.yaml sauce that I should be investigating to optimize cost (over a dynamic f1 config)? 

The default app.yaml (F1 dynamic with zero reserved instances) is going to be the cheapest app.yaml config.

As I mentioned in an earlier reply today, scaling back cron.yaml frequencies may help a little.  These were crafted for medium and larger environments (1,000s to 10,000s of Macs), as that was the original target for Simian.  It may be worth offering small/medium/large cron.yaml configs for admin selection, with a default to small or medium.  I'm not certain how much scaling these back will help, but if we get a couple of confirmations that this does indeed help, we'd consider this.

These seem safe to scale back (https://github.com/google/simian/blob/master/src/simian/mac/cron.yaml):

- /cron/reports_cache/summary  (default 30 mins, can safely be executed once daily or even less; the main summary page will be stale in the interim)

- /cron/reports_cache/installcounts and /cron/reports_cache/pendingcounts (default 15 mins, install counts in Package Admin and Apple Update Admin will be stale in interim.  that said, if install reports are being published in slowly, this execution is very, very cheap).

- /cron/reports_cache/trendinginstalls/1  similar to installcounts and pendingcounts above, but this is only used on the main summary page.

- /cron/maintenance/authsession_cleanup (default 10 mins, speeds up execution of auth but expiration is still checked at auth time, so this is effectively only a cleanup task which should be safe to run ~hourly instead)

Adjust cron.yaml, redeploy your server ("make release" or "make server_config && appcfg update_cron gae_bundle/" from the working dir), wait until the next day and let me know if you see a major difference in how quickly your quota is being reached.

At 120 clients, we're seeing 'Backend Instance Hours' chew away at our demo app engine budget at a fairly alarming rate... despite app engine cost reductions, we're looking at well over what Knut was seeing :/ 

Curious, how many instances are typically running, or what number of hours are you seeing daily?

Also, please check the Logging section to ensure you don't have any recurring failures which might be eating quota, if you're seeing any rate of 500s/etc.

[Benjamin Bolton]

Thanks so much for those cron tips - we'll get a new release up and post back with findings (hopefully by early next week). 

One (embarrassing) drain was unwittingly running a previous version (three static b2s back when we were tweaking the first apple sus pulls) alongside our current. 

Appreciate the context and comparisons -

-Ben

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[Justin McWilliams]

https://github.com/google/simian/commit/0059bbe29321d64abc3811fcb7b74ded6afbdc59

I've just decreased default frequency for various crons, and added some documentation to all with min/max suggestions.  With this change, Simian should be more "out of the box" ready for smaller and free quota deployments, and larger deployments will likely want to revert/increase frequency.

I'll document this more here: https://github.com/google/simian/wiki/Cron-Configuration

[Michael Holt]

I made the changs on the 11th and on the 12th it cost $5.35 to run for the day

[Justin McWilliams]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Michael Holt <mh...@reallifechurch.org> wrote:

I made the changs on the 11th and on the 12th it cost $5.35 to run for the day

Whereas (as previously cited) all of December was $43.33 and all of October was $62.87?  Were there drastically different usage patterns for Jan 12th versus these other months?  Assuming weekends are free (for simplicity, not because they actually are) $5.35 for a business day would mean >$100 for January.

Perhaps look only at instance hours and Datastore ops, not bandwidth, when comparing pre and post the cron frequency adjustments (as they don't drastically affect egress, and that's mentioned as a major contributor and variable to monthly cost)...

[Michael Holt]

I think the issue is i’m not understanding the Daily Billing Export.  I’ve attached what i’ve got

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator
(661) 705-4711/ mh...@reallifechurch.org

Real Life Church Office: (661) 775-7401 
23841 Newhall Ranch Rd
Valencia, CA 91355
http://www.reallifechurch.org

This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. Company Name is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.

[Justin McWilliams]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Michael Holt <mh...@reallifechurch.org> wrote:

I think the issue is i’m not understanding the Daily Billing Export.  I’ve attached what i’ve got

Note the Start Time and End Time columns.  This export includes Jan 7th-11th, one line per billable type (so multiple lines per day), totaling $5.53 for those 5 days. 

Jan 7th-10th your daily average was $1.29, whereas Jan 11th was only $0.39.  If you deployed earlier on Jan 11th, that could be an explanation for the drastically decreased cost.  Backend Instances dropped from ~87-92K seconds (~$1.20-$1.30) to ~29K seconds ($0.35).  All other billable lines are either around a penny or a fraction of a penny, for all listed days, so it seems the real potential for savings here is indeed instance uptime.

It would be interesting to see if your Billable Instances remains ~1/3 of previous levels.  4 crons which previously ran every 10-30 minutes now run every 1-4 hours, so it's very possible.  Let's see what your numbers look like tomorrow or Monday...

[Michael Holt]

Thanks Justin! I'll follow up on Monday and let you know what it's looking like 

[Josh M]

Just as an FYI,  back when you could adjust the instances using the slider.  I set ours to only have 1 instance running total.   We have 31 clients that check in the normal once an hour.  We don't push many packages though.  We have it push updates to Java and Flash if they have it installed in the first place.   Our daily cost is .01 usually with the occasional .02.

Not sure if it helps,

-Josh

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-5, Michael Holt wrote:

Thanks Justin! I'll follow up on Monday and let you know what it's looking like 

On Thursday, January 14, 2016, 'Justin McWilliams' via Simian Discuss <simian-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Michael Holt <mh...@reallifechurch.org> wrote:

I think the issue is i’m not understanding the Daily Billing Export.  I’ve attached what i’ve got

Note the Start Time and End Time columns.  This export includes Jan 7th-11th, one line per billable type (so multiple lines per day), totaling $5.53 for those 5 days. 

Jan 7th-10th your daily average was $1.29, whereas Jan 11th was only $0.39.  If you deployed earlier on Jan 11th, that could be an explanation for the drastically decreased cost.  Backend Instances dropped from ~87-92K seconds (~$1.20-$1.30) to ~29K seconds ($0.35).  All other billable lines are either around a penny or a fraction of a penny, for all listed days, so it seems the real potential for savings here is indeed instance uptime.

It would be interesting to see if your Billable Instances remains ~1/3 of previous levels.  4 crons which previously ran every 10-30 minutes now run every 1-4 hours, so it's very possible.  Let's see what your numbers look like tomorrow or Monday...

 

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator

(661) 705-4711/ mholt@reallifechurch.org

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[Justin McWilliams]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Josh M <joshua.ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just as an FYI,  back when you could adjust the instances using the slider.  I set ours to only have 1 instance running total.   We have 31 clients that check in the normal once an hour.  We don't push many packages though.  We have it push updates to Java and Flash if they have it installed in the first place.   Our daily cost is .01 usually with the occasional .02.

No longer available as a slider in the Cloud console, but you can configure this in app.yaml.  See the docs on "automatic_scaling", "basic_scaling", and "manual_scaling" as well as instance class: https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/modules/#Python_Instance_scaling_and_class

Not sure if it helps,

-Josh

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-5, Michael Holt wrote:

Thanks Justin! I'll follow up on Monday and let you know what it's looking like 

On Thursday, January 14, 2016, 'Justin McWilliams' via Simian Discuss <simian-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Michael Holt <mh...@reallifechurch.org> wrote:

I think the issue is i’m not understanding the Daily Billing Export.  I’ve attached what i’ve got

Note the Start Time and End Time columns.  This export includes Jan 7th-11th, one line per billable type (so multiple lines per day), totaling $5.53 for those 5 days. 

Jan 7th-10th your daily average was $1.29, whereas Jan 11th was only $0.39.  If you deployed earlier on Jan 11th, that could be an explanation for the drastically decreased cost.  Backend Instances dropped from ~87-92K seconds (~$1.20-$1.30) to ~29K seconds ($0.35).  All other billable lines are either around a penny or a fraction of a penny, for all listed days, so it seems the real potential for savings here is indeed instance uptime.

It would be interesting to see if your Billable Instances remains ~1/3 of previous levels.  4 crons which previously ran every 10-30 minutes now run every 1-4 hours, so it's very possible.  Let's see what your numbers look like tomorrow or Monday...

 

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator

(661) 705-4711/ mh...@reallifechurch.org

--

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator

(661) 705-4711/ mh...@reallifechurch.org

Real Life Church Office: (661) 775-7401 
23841 Newhall Ranch Rd
Valencia, CA 91355
http://www.reallifechurch.org

This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. Company Name is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.

[Michael Holt]

Looks like we're staying within the free limits when it comes to Billable Instances.  I've attached the daily export for the last few days and don't see anything for Instances now.

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 8:28:45 AM UTC-8, Justin McWilliams wrote:

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Josh M <joshua.ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just as an FYI,  back when you could adjust the instances using the slider.  I set ours to only have 1 instance running total.   We have 31 clients that check in the normal once an hour.  We don't push many packages though.  We have it push updates to Java and Flash if they have it installed in the first place.   Our daily cost is .01 usually with the occasional .02.

No longer available as a slider in the Cloud console, but you can configure this in app.yaml.  See the docs on "automatic_scaling", "basic_scaling", and "manual_scaling" as well as instance class: https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/modules/#Python_Instance_scaling_and_class

Not sure if it helps,

-Josh

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-5, Michael Holt wrote:

Thanks Justin! I'll follow up on Monday and let you know what it's looking like 

On Thursday, January 14, 2016, 'Justin McWilliams' via Simian Discuss <simian-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Michael Holt <mh...@reallifechurch.org> wrote:

I think the issue is i’m not understanding the Daily Billing Export.  I’ve attached what i’ve got

Note the Start Time and End Time columns.  This export includes Jan 7th-11th, one line per billable type (so multiple lines per day), totaling $5.53 for those 5 days. 

Jan 7th-10th your daily average was $1.29, whereas Jan 11th was only $0.39.  If you deployed earlier on Jan 11th, that could be an explanation for the drastically decreased cost.  Backend Instances dropped from ~87-92K seconds (~$1.20-$1.30) to ~29K seconds ($0.35).  All other billable lines are either around a penny or a fraction of a penny, for all listed days, so it seems the real potential for savings here is indeed instance uptime.

It would be interesting to see if your Billable Instances remains ~1/3 of previous levels.  4 crons which previously ran every 10-30 minutes now run every 1-4 hours, so it's very possible.  Let's see what your numbers look like tomorrow or Monday...

 

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator

(661) 705-4711/ mholt@reallifechurch.org

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---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator

(661) 705-4711/ mh...@reallifechurch.org

Real Life Church Office: (661) 775-7401 
23841 Newhall Ranch Rd
Valencia, CA 91355
http://www.reallifechurch.org

This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. Company Name is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.

[Benjamin Bolton]

Our experience is the same - cron changes leave us with pennies per day (if that). 

In retrospect, the biggest cost hurdle was bumping up the instance count/type for the initial Apple SUS before we tweaked down our supported versions, etc. 

Thanks again!

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 12:09 PM Michael Holt <mh...@reallifechurch.org> wrote:

Looks like we're staying within the free limits when it comes to Billable Instances.  I've attached the daily export for the last few days and don't see anything for Instances now.

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 8:28:45 AM UTC-8, Justin McWilliams wrote:

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Josh M <joshua.ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just as an FYI,  back when you could adjust the instances using the slider.  I set ours to only have 1 instance running total.   We have 31 clients that check in the normal once an hour.  We don't push many packages though.  We have it push updates to Java and Flash if they have it installed in the first place.   Our daily cost is .01 usually with the occasional .02.

No longer available as a slider in the Cloud console, but you can configure this in app.yaml.  See the docs on "automatic_scaling", "basic_scaling", and "manual_scaling" as well as instance class: https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/modules/#Python_Instance_scaling_and_class

Not sure if it helps,

-Josh

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 11:35:02 AM UTC-5, Michael Holt wrote:

Thanks Justin! I'll follow up on Monday and let you know what it's looking like 

On Thursday, January 14, 2016, 'Justin McWilliams' via Simian Discuss <simian-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Michael Holt <mh...@reallifechurch.org> wrote:

I think the issue is i’m not understanding the Daily Billing Export.  I’ve attached what i’ve got

Note the Start Time and End Time columns.  This export includes Jan 7th-11th, one line per billable type (so multiple lines per day), totaling $5.53 for those 5 days. 

Jan 7th-10th your daily average was $1.29, whereas Jan 11th was only $0.39.  If you deployed earlier on Jan 11th, that could be an explanation for the drastically decreased cost.  Backend Instances dropped from ~87-92K seconds (~$1.20-$1.30) to ~29K seconds ($0.35).  All other billable lines are either around a penny or a fraction of a penny, for all listed days, so it seems the real potential for savings here is indeed instance uptime.

It would be interesting to see if your Billable Instances remains ~1/3 of previous levels.  4 crons which previously ran every 10-30 minutes now run every 1-4 hours, so it's very possible.  Let's see what your numbers look like tomorrow or Monday...

 

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator

(661) 705-4711/ mh...@reallifechurch.org

--

---------------------------

Michael Holt / IT Administrator

(661) 705-4711/ mh...@reallifechurch.org

Real Life Church Office: (661) 775-7401 
23841 Newhall Ranch Rd
Valencia, CA 91355
http://www.reallifechurch.org

This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. Company Name is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.

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[Justin McWilliams]

Good to hear!   I'll add a feature request to our backlog to smooth out Apple Software Update sync, especially for new instance setup.  We already have one to make the OS X/catalog versions configurable in the web UI, which may be sufficient.

[Michael Holt]

Cost is still significantly lower, looks like we're going to average about $1.10/machine/yr now

(661) 705-4711/ mholt@reallifechurch.org

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