Fee changes

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Gustavo Pesce

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Apr 13, 2011, 12:27:18 PM4/13/11
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Hi Sea Lions- We’ve got big news, our hockey practices at King will
cost us more starting June 1. We will raise pool fees to $8 (prepaid)
and $10 (one time) on Monday April 18. We will raise them further in
June. Please read on.

The city will start charging a per hour fee, no matter how many people
show up. It’s a special fee for “Public Benefit” groups that we should
be thankful for: $47/hour of building use. That comes up to $141 for
Monday practice and $125 for Thursday.

Considering a whole year and holidays and stuff it comes out to
approximately $1,020/month. Right now we pay approximately $400 a
month.

On top of this, the city required that the swim coach on deck becomes
a certified lifeguard. They accepted the fact that we don’t have any
coach on deck, but we still have to have one certified lifeguard in
every practice. They offered to train as many of our players as needed
for no charge. We will need many of you to take the certification
class, which takes 40 (forty) hours.

Now how we will pay for this 2.5 times increase in fees?

Ways we can raise ~$1020/month starting June 1.

Option 1. Increase rate to $11 per practice

We'd rather go with one of the two options below that implement a
monthly membership fee system, with either reduced or zero payment per
practice. Such system encourages regular attendance and ensures that
we have enough money to pay for practices. Drop in rates for
non-members would be high enough to encourage membership.

The numbers shown will bring the amount of money we need. They are
also our best estimate based on attendance in recent months.

2. Monthly fee for members ($50 * 20 members) + Drop in rate ($15)

3. Monthly fee for members ($21 * 20 members) + member practice
rate ($6) + drop in rate ($15)

Based on what we know about you guys, maybe 3 is the system that fit
this group the best, but both works just fine. The key is that we need
20 members. 19 works, but that’s it. So you have to commit or we have
to figure something else out.

We will set a credit card - paypal sign up system that will charge the
membership fee every month.

We anticipate that it will take some time to get all 20 members
committed. To buy some time and get some cushion in the bank we will
increase the practice fee starting next Monday April 18. The new rates
are $8 (prepaid) and $10 (one time).

We propose a meeting to discuss these changes on April 25 at Zante’s
after practice. We’ll shorten practice to make it work, so we’ll get
out of the water at 8:45 pm.
Please plan to come.

At the meeting we’ll discuss all the options and the accounting behind
them and will answer all questions.

Before the meeting find us at practice to ask questions or email us at
our individual accounts.

This is it. Big change, and sucks to pay so much more. It’s not a
whole lot though, at $47/hour. We’ve been paying very little compared
to pool costs.

Let’s get this setup soon and get over it so we can go back to having
fun and putting together great teams for Nationals!

Yours truly,

Roxanne, Gus, Tom
roxru...@gmail.com, gpe...@gmail.com, thec...@gmail.com

Karen McDowell

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Apr 13, 2011, 3:57:14 PM4/13/11
to gpe...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
I think your options below are good (I will discuss my favorites below), but I do have a comment about possibility of reducing our total cost by reducing our total amount of time at the pool (if they allow us to do this). Bottom line is that we only play from 8 PM - 9:30 PM. I know some people work out in advance, but in general it seems like we are paying for 3 hours of pool time and only using 1.5 hours (I know I'm an offender of lingering on the deck). We should be able to at least cut each night to 2.5 hours, and possibly even 2 if we are disciplined (or maybe 2.5 for one night and 2 for the other). Gus et. al., will they allow us to reduce our time in the pool? If yes, then we should discuss the best allocation of time (Open Doors, Start Play, End Play, Leave Building), and how long we should have each practice.

This part I should send to you individually, but I wanted to whole group to hear the top comments. (Here is my initial opionion on your 3 options:
I do not like option #2. I do not think that you will get enough members and it discourages drop-ins. Option 1 or 3 is the best (If we are able to drop the total cost down, then maybe you could drop the proposed rates slightly).

Thanks to all the committee members for working on this issue!

FYI - Chris & I will be back in the pool soon. Can't wait to see you all on the bottom

Happy Hockey,

Karen

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Gustavo Pesce <gpe...@gmail.com>
To: San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group <sf...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [sfuwh] Fee changes
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:27:18 -0700

Hi Sea Lions- We&#65533;ve got big news, our hockey practices at King will


cost us more starting June 1. We will raise pool fees to $8 (prepaid)
and $10 (one time) on Monday April 18. We will raise them further in
June. Please read on.

The city will start charging a per hour fee, no matter how many people

show up. It&#65533;s a special fee for &#65533;Public Benefit&#65533; groups that we should


be thankful for: $47/hour of building use. That comes up to $141 for
Monday practice and $125 for Thursday.

Considering a whole year and holidays and stuff it comes out to
approximately $1,020/month. Right now we pay approximately $400 a
month.

On top of this, the city required that the swim coach on deck becomes

a certified lifeguard. They accepted the fact that we don&#65533;t have any


coach on deck, but we still have to have one certified lifeguard in
every practice. They offered to train as many of our players as needed
for no charge. We will need many of you to take the certification
class, which takes 40 (forty) hours.

Now how we will pay for this 2.5 times increase in fees?

Ways we can raise ~$1020/month starting June 1.

Option 1. Increase rate to $11 per practice

We'd rather go with one of the two options below that implement a
monthly membership fee system, with either reduced or zero payment per
practice. Such system encourages regular attendance and ensures that
we have enough money to pay for practices. Drop in rates for
non-members would be high enough to encourage membership.

The numbers shown will bring the amount of money we need. They are
also our best estimate based on attendance in recent months.

2. Monthly fee for members ($50 * 20 members) + Drop in rate ($15)

3. Monthly fee for members ($21 * 20 members) + member practice
rate ($6) + drop in rate ($15)

Based on what we know about you guys, maybe 3 is the system that fit
this group the best, but both works just fine. The key is that we need

20 members. 19 works, but that&#65533;s it. So you have to commit or we have


to figure something else out.

We will set a credit card - paypal sign up system that will charge the
membership fee every month.

We anticipate that it will take some time to get all 20 members
committed. To buy some time and get some cushion in the bank we will
increase the practice fee starting next Monday April 18. The new rates
are $8 (prepaid) and $10 (one time).

We propose a meeting to discuss these changes on April 25 at Zante&#65533;s
after practice. We&#65533;ll shorten practice to make it work, so we&#65533;ll get


out of the water at 8:45 pm.
Please plan to come.

At the meeting we&#65533;ll discuss all the options and the accounting behind


them and will answer all questions.

Before the meeting find us at practice to ask questions or email us at
our individual accounts.

This is it. Big change, and sucks to pay so much more. It&#65533;s not a
whole lot though, at $47/hour. We&#65533;ve been paying very little compared
to pool costs.

Let&#65533;s get this setup soon and get over it so we can go back to having


fun and putting together great teams for Nationals!

Yours truly,

--
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Jason Zvanut

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Apr 13, 2011, 11:19:05 PM4/13/11
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I can support the idea of monthly dues, but don't want to get out of the water at 845 to discuss it. :) How about a full night of hockey, and those that plan on playing regularly stay late to discuss fees?

I drive quite a ways, and 45 min just gets me warmed up. Put me down in favor of option #2. I am committed to the team, so the club can have my money if I fail to show up.



Thx

jz

Kristof Hovaten

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Apr 14, 2011, 7:43:43 AM4/14/11
to jaz...@vzw.blackberry.net, sf...@googlegroups.com
As a new player and someone who like to make every practice in a month I would strongly support option 2 as well. For those who attend all the practices, it would only be an increase of $10 to $15 per month whereas in option 1 the same person would be paying nearly $90 a month. 

 I know we can all do the math, but my main concern is that I think a high nightly fee and as well as high drop in fee may discourage newcomers to the team and those who want to get their skills up to speed. For those who already play well, it is easy to drop in and out of practice but beginners need a lot of bottom time to work on their fundamentals. 

Just my $.02, 
Kristof

Karen McDowell

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Apr 14, 2011, 10:03:11 AM4/14/11
to jaz...@vzw.blackberry.net, sf...@googlegroups.com
I agree with Jason about only playing for 45 minutes. I would be willing to stay late. The other option would be to have people show up early and have the meeting then, or just decide to start play earlier on Monday, so we still get a full night of play then (we would obviously have to announce this in advance so that we would get a good turnout).

Also, I just want to throw out the idea of giving people the option of choosing option 2 or option 3 (it might be a little hard to track, but I think you will get more people overall to sign up for some type of membership).

Cheers,

Carolyn Erdman

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Apr 14, 2011, 1:18:09 PM4/14/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
Hi all, Please let me know what time you get to Zantes (send me a text?) and I will meet you there. I still can not play:(

But here is my .02

Drop in fee need to be reasonable for people playing their first year or out of towners.
I think that a $10 fee is the most you want to go. Leave it as is for these 2 type of people.

I would support a paypal system for a monthly access fee for people who want to keep the club going.
Plus a fee for each time you actually play. I guess that means I support #3. I would also suggest so that we don't start out in the hole.
That all regulars be willing to donate $100 to the club--one time fee. Or we start to have a membership fee each year to cover the "low nights".

I have a few other comments, but I will wait on that!

Carolyn




Ways we can raise ~$1020/month starting June 1.

Option 1. Increase rate to $11 per practice

We'd rather go with one of the two options below that implement a
monthly membership fee system, with either reduced or zero payment per
practice. Such system encourages regular attendance and ensures that
we have enough money to pay for practices. Drop in rates for
non-members would be high enough to encourage membership.

The numbers shown will bring the amount of money we need. They are
also our best estimate based on attendance in recent months.

  2. Monthly fee for members ($50 * 20 members) + Drop in rate ($15)

  3. Monthly fee for members ($21 * 20 members) + member practice
rate ($6) + drop in rate ($15)
--------------------------------------

John Goodrich

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Apr 14, 2011, 1:47:58 PM4/14/11
to Gustavo Pesce, San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group

Option #3 would be my first choice. I would consider increasing the monthly fee $4.00 per month from $21.00 to $25.00 and keep the practice rate at $5.00.

Option #1 would be my second choice.

 

King Pool is a good place to play UWH.  If we want to continue playing there attendance is going to be critical, or the players who go regularly play will have to carry the financial load for those who just drop in once in awhile.  Monthly fees will help relieve that.  Drop in rates for new comers should be reduced the first month to encourage membership after the first month, I’m sure something can be worked out based on the amount of playing time each individual desires.

  

John G.


From: sf...@googlegroups.com [mailto:sf...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gustavo Pesce


Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 9:27 AM
To: San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group

Subject: [sfuwh] Fee changes

 

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Natalia Silva

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Apr 14, 2011, 6:32:46 PM4/14/11
to John Goodrich, Gustavo Pesce, San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
Hi everyone
I was going to wait until the 25th, but since everyone is giving their opinions...
Here is mine, I definately support the montly fee, besides it's the way we do it in Colombia. It definatelly increased the attendance, people like to make their money worth!!
My vote is for option number 2, but I agree with Carolyn when she says we should have a low rate for those who are new, say $5 per practice for one month -$10 less than full rate, and then charge full rate. Which is not that bad, it will only increase $10.
For those who only go at least 4 times a month (say only Mondays) makes more sense to pay 50 dollars than 15 each monday. For those who only drp in twice a month make more sense pay each practice.

Anyway this is my humble opinion.




--
Natalia Silva
contact number 213 587 0801



Sunshine Wu

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Apr 14, 2011, 6:56:55 PM4/14/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
Hi all,

I was just comparing the various options with the YMCA arrangement, where its $20 drop-in and $65 monthly fee, with first-timers getting a free entry.  The king pool is still a good deal with any of the three options.  

One whole month of lowered costs may be difficult to track if there are a lot of new people dropping in, but maybe saying first time free would help newcomers decide if hockey is for them or not, and then act accordingly.  If they are interested in a second visit, usually a higher fee should not deter them, as long as there's still a drop-in option and they're not necessarily forced immediately into joining the membership to keep trying it out.

Another thing to think about is that currently there's still a number of people who go to both the Y and the King pool.  With the increased costs, it may no longer be financially sensible to keep both memberships going.  Since the Y now only has once a week hockey and management seems pretty impervious to negotiations, should we try to think of another way to keep an abundance of hockey options available in the city, without breaking everyone's bank account? Maybe choosing a different pool to have hockey at, or consolidating all hockey into the King pool and having more nights and better rates with them? 

Sunshine 

--- On Thu, 4/14/11, Natalia Silva <nasti...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Natalia Silva <nasti...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Fee changes

Matt Blair

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Apr 14, 2011, 9:01:10 PM4/14/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
Hi everyone!

Been reading this thread and though of a quick way to save a little money on practice.

Skip the locker room time after practice. Go home reeking of chlorine and shower at home. It's what the teams in Perth do - everyone showers at home - and it saves you a half hour of rental time. 

An easy way to get a cheaper practice. 

Matt

Renaud Waldura

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Apr 15, 2011, 1:00:19 PM4/15/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
But, but, but, what about my sexy time in the showers with all of you gorgeous hunks?
That's at least 50% of why I come to hockey!!!

Bob Burres

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Apr 15, 2011, 1:20:39 PM4/15/11
to sf...@googlegroups.com
I'm somewhat of a carpetbagger in this discussion, so feel free to hit delete, but here's my $.02.

I'm all in favor of cutting down on the dead time before and after hockey if that can save us money.  I also agree with Jason regarding a meeting, it's too far a drive for me for only 45 minutes of hockey.  Perhaps a meeting before or after a full practice?  As far as the monetary options proposed, I can work with any of them. 

For those that are not familiar with the Club Puck fees, they offer a monthly "pass" for $100.00 that covers all practices (3/week).  Or you can pay $10 per practice.  Students get a discounted price of $5 per practice.  Also, everyone's first two practices are free.  I don't think many people take advantage of the $100 monthly fee, but there are a few.  I know that the $10 fee is tough for some, but it doesn't seem to be a deterrent to those that enjoy hockey.  BTW, Puck's pool fees have continued to go up over the last few years and at $10 per player they make a little money on some days and lose on others.  Overall, it's pretty close to a break even.


Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:01:10 +0800

Subject: Re: [sfuwh] Fee changes

Jason Zvanut

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Apr 15, 2011, 1:47:46 PM4/15/11
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If my $.02 matter either, I also think Matt's suggestion is spot on. I want to play hockey, not chit-chat. And those like Renaud who need the skin time can always share a shower offsite. :)

I don't want to waste anyone's money either, but I am open to any fee arrangement necessary to encourage more hockey - especially newcomers!

Thx

jz


From: Bob Burres <bob_b...@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:20:39 -0700
Subject: RE: [sfuwh] Fee changes

spencer mclintock

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Apr 16, 2011, 2:29:20 PM4/16/11
to Gustavo Pesce, San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
Alright, time for my thoughts i guess.

I've got a varied schedule so I'm never sure how much i can make it to
practice, and I'm broke, so I'd be down with option 3. Also, I'd love
to take the lifegaurd certification course, any more info on that?

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Gustavo Pesce

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Apr 20, 2011, 2:16:08 PM4/20/11
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Hi there - We have reviewed comments and proposals received by email,
both to the group and privately (thanks!). See below our response to
them.

Meeting Monday at Zante is at 10:00 pm. We will not leave the water
any earlier than normal. But we will continue our "rapid exit" drills.
So everybody out at 9:45.

Zante (Indian Pizza)
3489 Mission Street (@Cortland, near 30th)
San Francisco, CA 94110

Remember that current practice rates are $8 (prepaid) and $10 (drop-in)

See you guys soon,

Gus

Tom, Gus and Roxanne's responses to issues and proposals from players
feedback regarding new fees at King

All dollar amounts below are based on our expectations on future
attendance and enrollment in monthly payment systems. They are subject
to change as needed. If turnout goes down we will have to raise the
fees, if it goes up we will be able to cut them. If we change them we
would keep the relative values unchanged

1-Give people the option to pay $50 monthly for unlimited practices or
$21 monthly + $6 per practice.

We can do this. It adds even more administrative work though, which is
a major issue in deciding what to do.

If we do this, we will ask people to pay quarterly (3 months at a
time, starting June 2011).

2-Reduce Monday expenses by starting water time at 8:00 PM

We are reluctant to cut hockey time to accommodate people tardiness.

If the situation continues that ~5 players show up at 7:15 and engage
in workouts and drills, then so much for the better. Let the players
committed to personal development enjoy their time and make everyone
pay for it. It’s a goal of the Club to promote activities that
increase fitness and skill level.

We might be able to cut our ending time by 15 min, based on our test
yesterday (and ongoing tests!) on rapid building evacuation.

3-Reduce Monday expenses by leaving without showering

We think that considering the rapid-evacuation test, and the fact
showering is only a fraction of the 15 minutes exit-time (on top of
clearing the deck, drying and getting into one’s clothing), we don’t
think the savings are worth the sacrifice.

4-Drop in price

We want a drop in price that encourages anybody who might play more
than a couple times a month to join on the monthly scheme. This aligns
with the club’s expenses, encourages them to attend and reduces the
monthly fees for everyone. We also need to keep the fees simple to
explain and charge.

4a-Special discounts for new players

We plan to have the first practice free and for the first month after
that $6/practice for new players only.

4b-Special discount for players from out of town

There is some concern that $15/practice is too high. In particular it
is great having Club Puck players come all the way from San Jose to
play with us and we don’t want to lose them. We want to encourage the
monthly scheme and our cost is about $12/person-practice. Let’s
discuss it next Monday.

5-Financial hardship on players that play at King and at the YMCA

Players that want to play at the Y and once a week at King also would
have to pay $106 ($41+$65) monthly for hockey, which maybe too much
for some.

A suggestion was made to open a new hockey practice in another more
affordable pool or to add nights to the King pool program. There are
no other hockey pools with affordable rates in San Francisco. We can
expand the program at King if attendance increases, due to enrollment
of Y players or otherwise. Right now Friday nights and Saturday and
Sunday afternoons are available.

6-Lifeguard certification

As we said before, we will be required to have one certified lifeguard
at every practice. If we don’t provide one, we have to pay $30 per
hour of water time to the city, so they can provide one of theirs. A
third option is to hire a lifeguard ourselves and do a private deal
with this person.

The city offered to train as many players as willing for free. The
certification takes 40 hours of class.

Until the city comes back to us with dates for the class, we will not
know anything else on this matter.

Until the class happens, we will be granted a “grace period”, during
which we will not be required to provide a lifeguard.

It is unclear how long this will take. It maybe a month or maybe a year or two.

We don’t have any plan B in case there aren’t enough players that take
the class. We also don’t have a plan to provide financial incentives
to those players. If we do, we would have to raise the pool fees to
pay for that.

7-Raise money through fundraiser events like parties.

Please volunteer to organize a fundraising events. Tournaments
sometimes raise a few $100. Our pool fees will be about $12,000/year.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Gustavo Pesce <gpe...@gmail.com> wrote:

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