New payment system starts-Please pay dues

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Gustavo Pesce

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Sep 17, 2011, 11:08:11 PM9/17/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
Hi Sea Lions – Please go to sfuwh.org/club/pay and sign up to pay our
new monthly rate.

On September 1 we started paying to the City hourly rental fees for
our time at King pool. We are a "public benefit" group now, on a
discounted rate. Nonetheless, at current attendance rates, our
fees/player have gone up.

Payment is in advance, thanks to our saving scheme we were able to pay
all fees until November 30 ($2500!).

As we explained earlier we will change the way we charge for practice
time. Good news now: we reduced the fees from what we have said in
May. If attendance continues good and people sign up to these plans as
we expect these fees should be enough. The options are:

Members:
-$45/month for unlimited practices
-$21/month for $6 per practice

Non-members:
-$13 for dropping in

Members monthly fees are payable 3 months at a time at the beggining
of each calendar quarter (Jan 1, April 1, July 1, Oct 1).

We lowered the drop in fee to make it more affordable to out of town
players and visitors. The drop in fee is not meant for San Francisco
players. There is no explicit rule against someone local using it
occasionally (e.g. someone that plays hockey 4 times a year or less,
you know who you are), but please don't use for a once/twice monthly
scheme. As much as possible, please sign up for the $45 unlimited
plan. We really want to minimize the hassle of collecting money at the
pool.

Payment is conveniently done with PayPal online, so you can use your
credit card or bank account. PayPal will pay your dues automatically
every 3 months. You can easily stop it at any time.

You can pat at this link: sfuwh.org/club/pay

Please help us jump-start the new system: Don't wait until October 1.
Click on the link now and make your payment. Thanks!!

For general questions email the list, for issues concerning your
personal situation write to us.

Cheers,

Tom, Roxanne, Gus

PS: Sign up for PCCs! Dates: 11/11 to 11/13. Fill the form here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&formkey=dGhuc3BuVHFnZWwzRTlMTFBsWGxMV0E6MQ#gid=0

PS II: We will have a glove making gathering at Tom's place or nearby
on October 1, 10:30 to 2 pm. More info to come.

Karen McDowell

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Sep 18, 2011, 12:28:43 AM9/18/11
to gpe...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
Is it $13 for everyone dropping in, or is it less for non SF player (your message is unclear). I'm just finishing my busy time (my big conference is this coming week) and was looking forward to coming back an playing some, but we will probably not pay $13 bucks a pratice, $26 for 2 people. I have a lot of vacation and work travel coming up so realistcally we are only going to make a few times a month until the new year.

I was at the meeting in May. People were very concerned then about the drop-in rate and it is still high. You dropped the rate quite a bit for the regular attendees, but I think you are going to lose a lot of drop-ins. Probably us.

Happy Hockey,

Karen

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Gustavo Pesce <gpe...@gmail.com>
To: San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group <sf...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [sfuwh] New payment system starts-Please pay dues
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:08:11 -0700

Hi Sea Lions &#65533; Please go to sfuwh.org/club/pay and sign up to pay our
new monthly rate.

Cheers,

Tom, Roxanne, Gus

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Tom Brown

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Sep 18, 2011, 1:57:10 PM9/18/11
to Karen McDowell, gpe...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
$13 for all drop-ins. For the financial health of the club we encourage everyone who intends to play more than twice a month to sign up for one of the membership options.
This is a $3/person/practice increase from the current drop-in rate but I believe the health of the club comes from people who play and/or pay regularly. We still need incentive to help people initially get in the door but our new drop-in rate is still less than similar activities such as a day pass at Mission Cliffs or 1h at House of Air.

We proposed 3 options
http://groups.google.com/grhttp://groups.google.com/group/sfuwh/msg/21de3ec50b3eaacd
and you requested that members have more choices both in email http://groups.google.com/group/sfuwh/msg/14561c6727c43cc9 and at the meeting at Zantes. Please pick the one that best fits your commitment to playing UWH in SF and sign up at sfuwh.org/club/pay.

Everyone is welcome to play with the numbers and try to find a better solution https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asclbd2LQ8WBdFYxeUtianZLVXFTMmFvLUFXX284WEE#gid=4
As I said at the meeting, if you want cheaper hockey the best thing you can do is recruit, recruit, recruit! We picked these rates based on historical attendance and will drop them if more people sign up. I want to try something and get back to more important things such as playing hockey and getting more people in the water. Please join us on the bottom and bring more people. We're having 2 good practices quite consistently but it has been a while since we had 2 games at the same time.

Karen McDowell

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Sep 18, 2011, 2:53:32 PM9/18/11
to thec...@gmail.com, gpe...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
The way you have adjusted the rates there is no advatange to option 2 (it is always either equal to, or worse than the other 2 options).  You're better off doing option 1 or 3.  The high drop-in rate was a major concern at the May meeting.  You are basically charging almost the same rate if you show up 3-4 times or of if you show up 8 times a month. 
 
I know you are trying to get people to show up all of the time, but that just doesn't fit our lifestyle right now.  We are looking to show up 2-4 times a month (We will not spend $80-90/month to do that).  We don't go to Mission Cliffs or the House of Air.  We ride our bikes for free around Alameda and in the adjacent hills, so going to hockey is a definite increase in costs for us (we also have to pay bridge toll and gas).
 
I don't expect you to adjust the hockey rates just around us (we have plenty other activities we can do), but your rate seems very discouraging to people who want to play 2-4 times a month and for new players.  I think you are going to have a hard time keeping up attendance, but for the sake of SFUWH, I hope I'm wrong.
 
I really hope this payment scheme works for SF Underwater hockey.  It definitely doesn't work for us. 
 
I would like to see SFUWH prosper whether we are a part of it or not. 
 
Best Wishes,

Karen

Elaine

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Sep 18, 2011, 3:46:42 PM9/18/11
to Karen McDowell, thec...@gmail.com, gpe...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
I'm going to have to agree with Karen too. I'll probably only play 2-4 times a month, and the rate is discouraging. It more than doubled. The cost at the Y rose quite a bit, so attendance has dropped. I have to get people who are swimming laps to join us, but it's difficult getting new outside players or drop ins with the high costs unless we have guest passes (or they're Renaud's co-workers) :). Another option?

Elaine


--

Jenning Gee

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Sep 18, 2011, 5:34:31 PM9/18/11
to Elaine Willoughby, sf...@googlegroups.com
Dear Elaine, 

Could you forward this letter to a representative who will be able to respond to our concerns?  SFUWH, write a letter, we will give it another try.


To the Administrators of the YMCA:

I am writing regarding the Underwater Hockey Program (UWH) at the Presidio Pool about my concerns.  I am a current member and chose to be a member to have access to the Underwater Hockey Program and have been playing now for close to 3 years.

Many of the players are YMCA members and some are visitors.

Here are the issues:
1a)  Our schedule for UWH was reduced from 2 nights a week to one night.  Our schedule for warm up and playing times were on Wednesdays and Fridays from 8:30 pm to 10:00 pm.  We were cut down to just the one night on Fridays. 
1b) We had normally stop play at 9:50 allowing time to put the swimming lanes back in and 5 minutes for a hot-tub soak. We were able to do everything in 1.5 hours.

2)  It was suggested that we stop 15 minutes earlier than our original schedule about 9 months ago that we begin our use of the pool for UWH at 8:15 pm to be out of the water at 9:45 pm. Stopping swimmers to give up the lanes at 8:15 pm seemed early for them and upsetting.  Our players start now at 8:30 which seemed more politically correct and less rude.

3)  We were now told something different every week by the Life Guards on duty. We were told to stop playing 2 minutes early on our schedule at 9:43 pm. Every minute counts for us.  The instruction was: "out of the water and have the lines back in for the lanes BY 9:45 pm", which means we have to now stop at 9:40 pm.


 Here are my requests for a solution:
A) If the Administrators can consider giving the Underwater Hockey Program the 1.5 hrs for the sport for the night scheduled. 

B)  If the Administrators can consider giving UWH another night for the sport, making it 2 nights per week.

C)  If the Administrators can allow the Coaches and volunteers to be trained to become Life Guards for the YMCA thus solving the problems of the time from 9:45 pm to 10 pm that the pool will have certified and trained UWH Life Guards for the game.

D)  The use of the pool from 9:45 pm to 10 pm will allow the UWH players more time to regroup to be trained on putting the swimming lanes back in, to pickup the equipment and store it, and to have a final release of sitting in the  hot-tub for 3-5 minutes allowing the volunteers to recruit the new players to the sport and discussing the benefits of playing the sport.


The UWH volunteers and Coaches have not been given credit:
1)  The players who are members of the YMCA willingly without an argument gave up the Wednesday nights for the Polo Players. Some dropped out of the YMCA and volunteers are now RECRUITING players for UWH to the YMCA.  Volunteers have even advertised the event as part of the recruiting process.

2)  The Coaches of UWH train the new members to play UWH and teach them how to use the equipment stored by the pool.

3)  SFUWH donated equipment to the YMCA for the sport and make sure that all equipment is put back neatly and safely after a game.

4)  The Coaches and the UWH players volunteer to take out the swimming lanes and to put them back in making it easier for the Life Guards to not have to perform this function.

5)  The Coach for the evening lockup and secure the building, allowing the Life Guards on Duty to leave at 9:45 pm.


For the sake of the future of the YMCA  I am asking the Administrators to consider the concerns listed.  The Underwater Hockey Players and members would be willing to meet to discuss our interests and how we can help the YMCA.  

Sincerely,
Jenning Gee

Gustavo Pesce

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Sep 18, 2011, 5:37:19 PM9/18/11
to Elaine, Karen McDowell, thec...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
Karen (and Elaine) - I am not sure I understand what you are saying.
If you play 3 times a month, and you chose the $21+6 option, your cost
is $38/month. On average you'll be paying $12.3/practice. For a
reference, the average cost per player with the current rental fees
and attendance rates is about $11.5. So you would pay what we pay.

We realize that the $13 option seems more convenient under some
schemes. That happened because we lowered it from $15. Again, the $13
drop in is not an option for regulars, so comparing it with the
members rate is a non-issue.

We are paying more than 2-fold more in rental now than in May. We pay
rental regardless of attendance, so we are translating that to the new
payment system.

Gus

Karen McDowell

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Sep 18, 2011, 8:17:25 PM9/18/11
to gpe...@gmail.com, will...@gmail.com, thec...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
I do get it.

Basically you are forcing people to pay $45 a month to play hockey no mater how frequently they play, or $21 bucks a month to just stay a member and not play at all (as you must commit in 3 month segements).

4 practices at $13 each for the drop-in rate = $52 = $13/practice*
* How do you determine who is eligible for this? If we are forced into one of the other programs, then definitely count us out. I would maybe consider showing up occassionaly for this price, but not often. I'm defintely not going to pay $21/month just to be a member when I know there are several months were I can not show up at all.

2 practices 21+6+6 = $33 = $17/practice

4 practices 21+6+6+6+6 = $45 = $11/practice

4 practices @$45 = $11/practice
7-8 practices @$45 =is approximately $6/practice (less than half of the other price). Regular players pay much less than everyone else (they should get some discount, but this a bit much).

That's great. I hope if works out. As I mentioned, it doesn't favor players that want to play 1-4 times a month. That's fine. Maybe you don't want those type of players. My guess is your not going to get part-time players with this scheme.

Speaking only for ourselves - We are only intersteded in playing part-time and we are not willing to pay your rate. If we can't use the drop-in rate, then we will just drop-in at San Mateo or some other local pool.

I hope I'm wrong. Maybe it will encourage everyone to show up 8 times a month and participation at hockey in San Francisco will grow.

This is my last repsonse on this issue. I have a busy week next week.

I hope you can get a lot of people to pay $45/month and that you have enough people show up to play a games 2 nights a week.

Best Wishes,

Karen

Gus

>>> message is unclear). &#65533; I'm just finishing my busy time (my big conference is


>>> this coming week) and was looking forward to coming back an playing some,

>>> but we will probably not pay $13 bucks a pratice, $26 for 2 people. &#65533;I have


>>> a lot of vacation and work travel coming up so realistcally we are only
>>> going to make a few times a month until the new year.
>>>

>>> I was at the meeting in May. &#65533;People were very concerned then about the
>>> drop-in rate and it is still high. &#65533;You dropped the rate quite a bit for the


>>> regular attendees, but I think you are going to lose a lot of drop-ins.

>>> &#65533;Probably us.

John Pollard

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Sep 18, 2011, 8:50:21 PM9/18/11
to Karen McDowell, gpe...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com, will...@gmail.com, thec...@gmail.com

I think I have learned one of two things from this email exchange.

1st option:  remove myself from this update format, this is inane.

2nd option: place as much as possible with San Jose group.

Best,

John Pollard

SF Garage Co
5 12 Construction

1760 Mission St
SF, CA 94103

PH 415-826-0606

Roxanne Rust

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Sep 18, 2011, 9:45:49 PM9/18/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey
This payment system sounds reasonable to me. Thanks to Gus, for doing the doing all the math to figure out what we need to pay. Thanks to Tom for making it easy to pay online. 

See everyone tomorrow for another exciting night of the league and the second week of the new children's practice. 


Roxanne

John Pollard

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Sep 18, 2011, 10:06:07 PM9/18/11
to Karen McDowell, gpe...@gmail.com, will...@gmail.com, thec...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
To be clear, I am extremely grateful to all of the people, especially Gus
who donate their time for free to handle all of the leases, negotiations
with the City of SF and coordinating all of us who enjoy playing hockey.

I cannot thank enough everyone who donates time to insure we have a place
to play at a really nice pool to boot:)

Best,

PS, the link to make payments is extremely easy and I enjoy the ease of
making payments online.

John Pollard
S.F. Garage Co.
5.12 Construction, Inc.

1760 Mission St.
San Francisco, CA 94103
O: 415-826-0606
F: 415-276-4515
E: jo...@sfgarageco.com

I do get it.

Best Wishes,

Karen

Gus

No virus found in this incoming message.
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23:34:00

Matt Blair

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Sep 18, 2011, 10:23:40 PM9/18/11
to John Pollard, Karen McDowell, gpe...@gmail.com, will...@gmail.com, thec...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
I'm a bit out of the loop - what's the current drop in rate in SF? 

Matt


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Jason Zvanut

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Sep 19, 2011, 2:24:42 AM9/19/11
to sf...@googlegroups.com
I'll agree with John here. SFUWH has come a long way, thanks to the group of folks (you know who you are) that have spent a lot of personal time getting this club organized and well attended over the years. A big thank you to all that have made such contributions, large and small. Many of these people have moved on, but SFUWH would not be what it is today without their effort.

Unfortunately, pool time is not cheap, nor easy to get. Costs have gone up, but so has: pool time, pool quality, pool size, spare equipment and gear, level of play, number of new players, number of SF tourneys, number of nat'l players, a kids program for chrissake, etc, etc, etc. This is all good for SFUWH, and it will get even better if the club continues the support.

The fee issue has had a lot of input and consideration, but the reality is that everybody's contribution must increase. The steering committee has a tough job making it fair, accessible, and sustainable for all, in my opinion. Encouraging commitment is a good policy, and certainly is not meant to exclude anyone. I would hope that most can find a few extra bucks in their budget to join the fun as much as their schedules will allow. If affordability is a serious concern, pls let the steering committee know (privately).


Thx,





jz
--
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Matt Blair

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Sep 19, 2011, 4:04:06 AM9/19/11
to sf...@googlegroups.com
Gustavo and Company, 

Is there a compromise that hasn't been discussed but might be available for those players who only come 2-4 times a month? 

Steering Committee, it seems like you don't want to collect money at the door, if you can. 

Karen and Elaine (and others I'm sure who haven't spoken up), you don't want to pay 21 + (6x2) = 33 to play twice a month.

Would it be possible to allow Karen and Elaine to pay their drop-in fee online before practice? So they go to the website, pay 13 bucks (or whatever) online, and then you don't have to collect?

That way, they aren't tied to the 21 dollar minimum, and you don't have to collect at the door? 

I don't know if this is feasible, but I just thought about it and wanted to run it by the club. 

Hope this helps the situation and doesn't make it more complicated. 

Matt

Karen McDowell

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Sep 19, 2011, 9:18:01 AM9/19/11
to frenet...@gmail.com, sf...@googlegroups.com
Hi Everyone!
 
I just wanted to clarify that I'm not tryng to be negative.  I do appreciate all of the hard work of committee.  I know the committee members volunteer many hours to make this happen.  I collected fees and payed the bills at Club Puck for 5 years (It is a thankless job).  My comments on the fee proposal was not meant to be a condemnation of those in charge, I'm just concerned about the impact of the fees on the club.  I did make sure I attended the special meeting to discuss the fees to have my input because I was concerned at the proposal.  I also responded to e-mails when the proposal first came out.  My major conern is about the club and not own my ability to play hockey at SF a couple times a month (I'm 1/2 retired anyway).
 
I really do hope I'm wrong (I wasn't being sarcastic).  I hope the committee is right and SFUWH grows and you have lots of people at practice.  And I do appreciate all of the hard work of the committee and other volunteers. 
 
Happy Hockey,

Gustavo Pesce

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Sep 19, 2011, 12:45:11 PM9/19/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
Matt, everyone - Attendance is summarized in a spreadsheet accessible
from the club website. Click the link in the bottom of the balance
page: https://sites.google.com/a/sfuwh.org/www/club/balance.

Attendance has been good lately, boosted by the league.

Also, posting this link again, it is a spreadsheet we used to
calculate revenue under different payment options:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asclbd2LQ8WBdFYxeUtianZLVXFTMmFvLUFXX284WEE#gid=4

Gus

Renaud Waldura

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Sep 19, 2011, 1:10:31 PM9/19/11
to cr...@ymcasf.org, sf...@googlegroups.com
Dear Courtney Reed:
 
We wish to inform you of some ongoing issues with the UWH program in your pool. Please find our letter below, thanks.

Carolyn Erdman

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Sep 21, 2011, 6:04:31 PM9/21/11
to San Francisco Underwater Hockey google group
I also wanted to add my thanks to the group; especially Gus, Tom and Roxanne as well as our previous Steering peeps for the club and tournaments!
It's a hard job. We can't keep it going without everyone's help and goodwill. THEY all do this extra work for free; because they love the sport. Three Cheers!

SFUWH--I am certain we would like to keep the nice cheap drop-in and play when you want to laid back style. But times are a changing. 

Pools are expensive; but none of our fees are more than anything else one would do (look up Gym costs, Dancing lessons, Fencing, Riding, even the YMCA). 
and yes, we lost people when the YMCA drop-in prices went up, CP might be a bit less if you drop the extra gas money. 
But we like SFUWH and need your help in YOU becoming a member to keep it going! 

There has to be a nice middle ground in cost per practice and a guarantee that we can cover our bills. We are starting with this for the next 6 months. 
Join up, pay some dues and see how it works out! We can't depend on drop-in fees and hope that the books will be covered.  

BE A MEMBER!! and Help us get a good base. We are all friends; lets get this club in the green and keep it there!!! :) 
then let's send a great team to PCCs and Nationals and try to win some more awards!

I am certain that for some crazy reason the club 'makes' money at this that we will give it back to you all 100%. It's a win-win situation!


The hope is that a 3 month guarantee of funding via $45/mo or $21/mo+drop-in fee that we will never get to the point where the email goes out: 
Hi all we are broke and need 24 people to donate $50 each to cover the pool for the next month or practice is cancelled. 


Carolyn


 PS: Sign up for PCCs! Dates: 11/11 to 11/13. Fill the form here:
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&formkey=dGhuc3BuVHFnZWwzRTlMTFBsWGxMV0E6MQ#gid=0

 PS II: We will have a glove making gathering at Tom's place or nearby
 on October 1, 10:30 to 2 pm. More info to come.

PS III Please when you see TOM thank him for all his work for years on end with the money!

PS IV  since we are paying for every min of pool time, lets use it...note to self read my own email:)

PS V--if you owe the club $$ please pay up!!! Me I have $1 credit--how nice. 

SEE YOU ALL IN A FEW WEEKS!!!

HOCKEY TIME!

Joseph Grandov

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Sep 24, 2011, 5:42:10 PM9/24/11
to Carolyn Erdman, SF Hockey

Carolyn,
Yes I am going to PCCs. Never missed/wouldn't miss. I tried to respond to the website but it just kicked me off. I've been told you're running the show, so I'm responding to you direct. I'd rather play mixed div, I'll be driving, I can take people and coming back Monday. Ask me whatever else you need to know.  
Joey-San

 
 
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