OT: Tires: Went down hard on my commuter this morning with Gatorskins

[Bruce Garretson]

I had researched previously and had already known that they were not good on wet pavement. I got caught out as I did not realize the corner was a bit moist. Does anybody have recommendations for other tires? Specialized Armadillos? Ambulance ride and 4 hours at the emergency room. I am sure this is going to be an expensive FUBAR.

[Alexandre Passos]

Ouch!

Hope you're alright, and no bones or carbon were broken...

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Bruce Garretson <bruce.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had researched previously and had already known that they were not good on wet pavement. I got caught out as I did not realize the corner was a bit moist. Does anybody have recommendations for other tires? Specialized Armadillos? Ambulance ride and 4 hours at the emergency room. I am sure this is going to be an expensive FUBAR.

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[Peter Chang]

ouch!

but now we have a new subject to fan the flames (after the recent style war).... the michelin pro4s were being closed out almost everywhere recently, and have seemed pretty good this far into the 'rainy season'. their life is only 'ok' though.

\p

[Peter Colijn]

Sorry to hear this, and I hope you heal up quick! Not the first we've heard of people having trouble with gators in the rain... :-/

I roll the 4seasons and have been happy with them in the rain.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Bruce Garretson <bruce.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had researched previously and had already known that they were not good on wet pavement. I got caught out as I did not realize the corner was a bit moist. Does anybody have recommendations for other tires? Specialized Armadillos? Ambulance ride and 4 hours at the emergency room. I am sure this is going to be an expensive FUBAR.

--

[Bruce Garretson]

Thanks guys. It was my beat up commuter. After having done yawyab last night was not ready to ride all the way down again this morning. Biggest issue is they could not get a stitch in my upper lip but the big ole nurse said I would little be pretty.

[Cordelia Link]

Hope you feel better soon :(

Obligatory vote for the gp4000s, I've never had trouble with them in wet weather. But I'm also really slow at corners.

[Christine Windsor]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it odd that a tire named after an (mostly) aquatic reptile is not good in the rain? 

Hope you heal quickly. 

[Peter Colijn]

Hm but I imagine a gator's skin (scales?) would be slippery when wet though?

[Bruce Garretson]

Thanks. Ironically I am a Floridian. I run GP4Ss on my road bike (way too many flats on the 4000s on sf2g but being 195 lbs. might be part of it) but would like to have something more puncture resistant for my commuter.

[Marcelo Vanzin]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:53:03 PM UTC-8, Bruce Garretson wrote:

Thanks. Ironically I am a Floridian. I run GP4Ss on my road bike (way too many flats on the 4000s on sf2g but being 195 lbs. might be part of it) but would like to have something more puncture resistant for my commuter.

Interesting. I've had very very few flats with GP4Ss, and I'm about the same weight as you. And this includes riding on dirt or, even worse, the shoulders on Skyline (or the bike lane on Bayshore).

[Peter Colijn]

I flatted all the time on GP4Ss but have been relatively happy with the 4Seasons.

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[Patrick Lea]

Feel better.

Pro 4s seem to have great grip but are not the most durable. On sale the can be reasonably priced.

[Guilherme Germoglio]

I've been happy with the Panaracer Pasela tires (28mm for adventure and 25mm for SF2G). They have been lasting long enough (considering all the crap spread over skyline shoulders and the fireroads) but I'm 165 lbs.  

[Patrick Kitto]

I corner with reckless abandon and find the 4000s adequate in the rain. However, nothing that has any sort of durability will really hold in the wet.

[David Deuber]

I go for less tire pressure when it's wet (under 100).

[Max Nachury]

Good advice David. On that epic cobble TdF stage last year, Nibali ran 60 psi. 

I typically run 85-90 psi in the dry and 75 psi in the wet. That's for a 165 lb rider with 25mm Veloflex. 

Autocorrected courtesy of iOS

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[David Deuber]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/05/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-tire-grip-wet-conditions_328827

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:31:59 PM UTC-8, Bruce Garretson wrote:

[Cordelia Link]

To add some anecdata:

Before Tuesday I hadn't had a flat on my road bike since April (~3k miles). I flatted twice in one ride Tuesday, both on the rear tire which currently has a 4Seasons (installed late May).

[David Deuber]

Whoa Nibali ran 60, unreal. 

  

How many miles on those tires? 

Here's my web app to keep track, but no good if you're a racer and often swapping wheel sets.

https://fitbike.herokuapp.com/ 

[Jeffrey Skokan]

Sorry about your tumble, Bruce.  Heal quickly!

[Bruce Garretson]

Thanks Jeff

[Alan Antonuk]

Welcome to the 'I've lost skin because I rode Gatorskins in the rain" club. Its not a small club.

I echo the sentiment that GP4s's don't survive long for bay-area commuters as they seem to get sliced and diced rather quickly. When I raced Michelin's Pro Race3's and 4s were the jam. They worked really well in the rain. Wear live left a lot to be desired, I think they'd suffer from the same issue as the GP4s do.  I'll probably end up trying some 4Seasons if we end up having a wet winter.

If you ever figure out the balance between wet-performance and puncture protection, let me know, I'm interested.

-Alan

[Daniel Hobe]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Alan Antonuk <alan.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Welcome to the 'I've lost skin because I rode Gatorskins in the rain" club.
> Its not a small club.
>
> I echo the sentiment that GP4s's don't survive long for bay-area commuters
> as they seem to get sliced and diced rather quickly. When I raced Michelin's
> Pro Race3's and 4s were the jam. They worked really well in the rain. Wear
> live left a lot to be desired, I think they'd suffer from the same issue as
> the GP4s do. I'll probably end up trying some 4Seasons if we end up having
> a wet winter.

Vittoria Pave's have worked really well for me. They come in 25 and
27mm width for extra grip and ability to run lower pressure. And you
get them in the ever "pro" green stripe version.

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/vittoria-open-pave-cg-iii-clincher-tire

They certainly don't last as long as Gatorskins but you can trust them
in the rain. That's worth going through an extra pair of tires a year
IMHO.

>
> If you ever figure out the balance between wet-performance and puncture
> protection, let me know, I'm interested.
>
> -Alan
>
>
> On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 7:51:13 AM UTC-8, Bruce Garretson wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Jeff
>>
>> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:06:50 PM UTC-8, Jeffrey Skokan wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry about your tumble, Bruce. Heal quickly!
>>>

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Daniel Hobe <ho...@gmail.com>

[Darrin Ward]

i sort of cringe when people recommend or consider gatorskins and armadillos (i see that happen far to often at to many bike shops).  they are both terrible tires to ride though are pretty puncture resistant.  i find most people buy them cause they are scared of having to change a flat which is just kind of silly.  just be okay with changing a flat.

everything else seems to be personal preference.  the pro 4s were pretty rad and so are the 4 seasons.  i had a very particular issue with the 4 seasons that made me jump to the pro 4s for a while.  but i will probably jump back or jump to the vittoria's.  pro 4s just became hard to get.  liked them otherwise.

[Justin!]

Heal up soon! Sorry to hear of the crash.

I don't ride enough in the rain to have really tested them, but my Schwalbe Durano DDs are supposed to grip well in the wet, be quite puncture resistant, and last a long time. The downside is that rolling resistance is apparently high- check out the thread from yesterday.

[Aaron Nathan]

I like the 4000s Black Chili a lot. They seem to be pretty durable for me (~1500 miles easy). Usually you can find them on sale for 40 bucks and the traction is really good. Upping it to 25's will also make your ride a heck of a lot smoother.

-Aaron

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Justin! <roja...@gmail.com> wrote:

Heal up soon!  Sorry to hear of the crash.

I don't ride enough in the rain to have really tested them, but my Schwalbe Durano DDs are supposed to grip well in the wet, be quite puncture resistant, and last a long time.  The downside is that rolling resistance is apparently high- check out the thread from yesterday.

[Bruce Garretson]

Ordered the Pave in 27. Was running Gatorskins 28/32. I do not think I will ever trust them again. The sensation of the bike coming out from underneath you for a simple commute is something I never again want to feel in my life.

[djconnel]

Summary: wider supple tires are better. And what Darren said. The most important thing is to swap the rear tire when it gets the flat top look. Rotate the old front to the rear and put on a new front if you want to be old school.

I get very few flats in San francisco because we clean our streets, if not our separated bikeways.

[David Deuber]

With El Nino on the way, good to know about Gatorskins. Thanks all. 

[Zak Stern]

+1 to having fallen on wet pavement while riding gatorskins :(

After my fall last year, I switched to GP 4000s and have been pretty happy since.

[Matthew Hiller]

I've been fine with Gatorskins for years. Rains more days in NY than SF, though; perhaps I just have more chances to get acclimated to how they feel in the wet and don't get caught by surprise.

+1 to hating Armadillos, though. Terrible road feel.

[Scott Johnston]

Okay, fine, I'll join in the tire thread...

I've been really happy with my Vittoria Rubino Pros for the last 2.5k miles. Grip in the wet seems comparable to racy tires. (I've found gatorskins to be horrendus in the wet as well.) I've had 2 punctures, but one was due to a carpet tack and the other from a goathead, so zero mysterious tiny shard of glass type punctures. They show very little wear, whereas any racy tires I've used seem to wear out by 2k miles. This guy says he got 5k miles and I believe it. You sacrifice a couple watts compared to racy tires, but still WAY closer to race tires than gatorskins in that regard, and totally reasonable tradoff for much longer lifetime, better puncture protection, and greatly reduced price IMO.

[Jason Thorpe]

On Nov 16, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Scott Johnston <wamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Okay, fine, I'll join in the tire thread...

I've been really happy with my Vittoria Rubino Pros for the last 2.5k miles. Grip in the wet seems comparable to racy tires. (I've found

I’ve ridden those tires before and liked them (but have since switched to Veloflex).

-- thorpej

[Marcello Pedersen]

+1 to the I went down on gatorskins (twice!) club. 

Avoiding white lines is critical too. First rain + cold + white lines + 700x23 with high PSI = disaster waiting to happen. 

GP4000SII are much better, durable (3k miles), great puncture resistance (apart from sidewall), and cheap (45 shipped usually for 700x25)

[Peter Chang]

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 5:44:07 PM UTC-8, Aaron Nathan wrote:

I like the 4000s Black Chili a lot. They seem to be pretty durable for me (~1500 miles easy).

what are people using for the durability curve? i probably am on the far end of running my tires to death, but 1500mi seems like it's on the other end of the spectrum.

\p 

[Peter Colijn]

I like to get at least 2k miles, ideally 3k. 3k seems pretty doable given the drought. I've gone 4-5k a few times.

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[Max Nachury]

I replace my rear Veloflex every 1500 miles. Longer than that and I start to get flats. Front gets 3000 miles. That's very close to quoted mileage from manufacturer. 

For me that's the price to pay for cornering with confidence and enjoying the ride just that little bit more. 

Autocorrected courtesy of iOS

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[Dan Sully]

That's about what I've been seeing on Veloflex as well.

--dan

--------------------------------------------------------------
<dsully> please describe web 2.0 to me in 2 sentences or less.
<jwb> you make all the content. they keep all the revenue.

[Jason Thorpe]

> On Nov 16, 2015, at 2:48 PM, Dan Sully <dan...@electricrain.com> wrote:
>
> That's about what I've been seeing on Veloflex as well.

+1. I’ve actually yet to replace a front Veloflex due to wear. I have 5k miles on a front Veloflex as we speak.

-- thorpej

[Hyper]

Michelin is now offering the Pro 4 Endurance in 700x28 for those want a wider profile in addition to the 23 and 25mm versions.  Should also have less rolling resistance at equal pressure due to wider contact patch.  I have been very pleased with the Pro 4 endurance  for commuting even on wet payment.

[Darrin Ward]

i run the michelin pro 4 endurance 25mms.  it should be noted that 25mm is actually like 30-32mm when you get it on the wheel.  after someone mentioned to me that michelin pro 4s run wide, took out the old measuring device and was surprised by the result.

i cant imagine running the 28mms.  i already curse up a storm trying to get the 25s on my hed plus wheels.  i in fact new it the tire needed changing the other day cause i could get it on without a lever, cause one of the disadvantages of the pro 4s vs 4seasons/4000s is its much harder to see the tread is worn out.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Hyper <terry....@gmail.com> wrote:

Michelin is now offering the Pro 4 Endurance in 700x28 for those want a wider profile in addition to the 23 and 25mm versions.  Should also have less rolling resistance at equal pressure due to wider contact patch.  I have been very pleased with the Pro 4 endurance  for commuting even on wet payment.

--

[Michael Aiello]

You guys are in my head now, I ride gatorskins and never though for a second it would be dangerous to take a hard turn on wet pavement, now I'm paranoid and hitting my brakes.

[Kurt Wallace Martin]

Make sure you brake in the turn.

[Alexandre Passos]

If you're paranoid when taking a hard turn the worse thing you can do, by far, is touch your brakes, specially if you think it might be at all slippery.

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 - Alexandre

[Scott Johnston]

Fun test: try to pull a wheelie with gatorskins in the wet. (Seriously though, with any other tires I can pick up the front wheel just fine. The gatorskins just spin.)

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[Bruce Garretson]

Not to make you too paranoid but the Gatorskins are coming off of my commuter as soon as I regain full use of my thumbs.

[Michael Aiello]

I don't know if this is a case of ignorance is bliss, or good thing I read this and prevented an accident.

I was already looking for a reason to buy new tires so I can go from 23 to 25 but couldn't justify it because they weren't worn out yet. 

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:31:59 PM UTC-8, Bruce Garretson wrote:

[Bruce Garretson]

I watched a buddy go down near Point Bonita and did research at the time. Figured with 28/32 on my Commuter I was relatively safe but they are getting banished ASAP. I have a sharp decent right out of my place so really do not want to take any chances.