What's PMP Scrum?
alanatlas
and I see an entire track that is called "PMP Scrum". What is PMP
Scrum?
Is it a new kind of Scrum that has professional Project Managers? Do
we relabel the things in the PMBOK so they look like scrum but really
aren't? Do we go back to the world of projects and abandon the world
of products and releases?
Is it some kind of Scrum that supports Frederick Winslow's Scientific
Management principles over those of Edwards Deming?
I have my own suspicions of what it is supposed to be, but I wanted to
express my unease with the phrase "PMP Scrum". I already have enough
trouble with the oxymoron "Accurate Estimate". I don't need another
one.
Channeling for Yogi Berra via George Carlin..."It's either scrum or it
ain't." To me, this don't sound like no scrum nohow.
alan
Paulo Roberto V. Camara
If not, who should be responsible for coaching the PO as this is a big issue in most of Agile projects I have seen?
[]s,
Paulo
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Chet Hendrickson
My understanding is that some bigwigs at PMI approached the SA earlier
this year wanting help on how to include Scrum ideas into their world.
Some of them attended the ScrumGathering in Orlando this year. My
guess is this track is the logical extension of that effort.
chet
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Check out our upcoming CSM Plus courses @
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Ron Jeffries
wrote:
> Don't you think that PMs have a great opportunity to work close to Product
> Owners aiding them to do their job better? Selecting the right products to
> be built, prioritizing the right backlog, assuring backlog readiness for the
> team, etc?
> If not, who should be responsible for coaching the PO as this is a big issue
> in most of Agile projects I have seen?
Scrum PO. A PMP Project Manger isn't likely to know that.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Master your instrument, master the music,
and then forget all that *!xy!@ and just play. -- Charlie Parker
Paulo Roberto V. Camara
[]s,
Paulo
Michael James
On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Paulo Roberto V. Camara wrote:
> Don't you think that PMs have a great opportunity to work close to Product Owners aiding them to do their job better? Selecting the right products to be built, prioritizing the right backlog, assuring backlog readiness for the team, etc?
--mj
Dan Rawsthorne
not who we'd like, but there you are... the PM is accountable.
Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
Senior Coach, Danube Technologies
d...@danube.com, 425-269-8628
Paulo Roberto V. Camara
[]s,
Paulo
Michael James
--mj
MAtthew
alanatlas
Yes, that's exactly what I think, too. I'd love to see a track called
"Experience Reports from PMPs Adopting Scrum" or even better
"Experience Reports from Managers of All Types When Adopting Scrum".
What I don't want to see is anything called "PMP Scrum" come to life.
alan
Sameer Bendre, CSM
PM in favor of scrum working with the Scrum master (& PO). I have
worked with both kind of PMs and have found it hard to work with PMs
with pre-defined mindsets or ones afraid to try new things. Making of
PMP Scrum could well be the first step to address orthodox PMs the
value of Scrum. Opening their eyes and mind to this "new" thing is
really really very important.
Regards,
Sameer
>
> - Show quoted text -
Michael James
the PMBOK has done more harm than good to software development.
--mj
Andy Brandt
On Dec 4, 5:25 am, Michael James <mich...@danube.com> wrote:
> "PMP Scrum" sounds like cold heat. My subjective impression is that
> the PMBOK has done more harm than good to software development.
other fields than software development. I'm not sure it does harm
there as well.
--
Regards,
Andy Brandt
http://www.andybrandt.net/
Andrea Tomasini
Hi James,
> "PMP Scrum" sounds like cold heat. My subjective impression is that
> the PMBOK has done more harm than good to software development.
Scrum, Kanban, Prince2, PMBOK, RUP are all tools, any of us might have preferences - guess which one in this list - but still each of them might be applicable in specific environment and with specific assumptions, and still make you reach your goal! That is the thing that more and more we keep on forgetting ;-) Focus!
Ciao
> --mj
ANdreaT
Michael James
--mj
cory...@gmail.com
For example - I fully understand Michael's statement. But the original starter may not. I'm not asking anyone to change their behavior, only asking that those who want to provide more context to please do so.
Cory
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Tobias
The confusion over "PMP Scrum" is my fault. 1) The title is actually
a place-holder, and 2) the "AND" in the middle got lost somewhere
between my pen and the web-team's keyboard.
The actual title of this track will be "When Worlds Collide: Scrum and
Traditional Project Management (with the possibility of substituting
PMI for "Traditional Project Management" if that can be done in
agrement with the PMI). Title aside, the intent of the track is to
explore the culture clash inherent in moving from a manager-directed
culture to a self-organized culture. This is the reality many of us
face, and hearing experience reports, or taking part in explorations
of how (say) collaboration skills can help us through such
difficulties are surely welcome.
So sorry for the error that led to this concern. The PMI do want to
support Scrum, as is apparent by Greg Balestrero's appearance last
year at the Orlando Gathering, and his follow-up blog post "A
Conversation on Agile Long Overdue" -- http://bit.ly/8CrLji
As many people know I had a lot of resistance to working with the PMI,
and I still do if the aim is to adopt traditional PM behaviors into
Scrum, but educating people immersed in a PMP world that Scrum can be
a new way of solving complex problems can only do good.
Tobias
Rafael Sabbagh
I believe, as a mission of the ScrumAlliance is to "transform the world of work" (and so is ours, as CSPs, CST's, CSC's, CSPO's and CSMs), we all should do our best to change the dominant command-and-control mindset.
One of the ways of doing so is trying to teach something to the PMPs. I truly believe this can only do good, as you said. But changing something is usually harder than forming something new. So, another (non-exclusive) way of doing that is teaching Scrum and Agile to future managers and workers as early as in universities, MBA's, business incubators etc. That's what we're trying to do here in Brazil, little by little.
Regards,
Rafael Sabbagh
Laszlo Szalvay
http://www.linkedin.com/in/laszloszalvay
http://twitter.com/Ewok_BBQ
Marcos Garrido
John Clifford
track.
I used to have great faith in the PMP certification until I worked
with many people holding it. (I'm sure many people who have had
frustration with ineffective Scrum implementations say the same about
the CSM certification.) In reality, Scrum proponents will encounter
PMPs (and advocates of prescriptive PMBOK-based project management
methods) in the organization. We can either try to work with these
people, or try to work against them... and working against them will
not be successful. What really matters is that we succeed, so it's far
better to get the PMPs on our side instead of at our throats.
I would also point out that there are many things that are left
undefined by Scrum that are well-defined by the PMBOK, and we can
certainly learn from some of the principles in the PMBOK even if adapt
rather than adopt the practices.
alanatlas
"and we can certainly learn from some of the principles in the
Can you provide an example?
I disagree fundamentally this this idea and mindset, and this is
exactly the dangerous place that I am going to try to help us avoid. I
have not yet been presented with something specific from the PMBOK
that is simple, necessary, and helpful to a healthy, functional Agile
team. Perhaps you can open my eyes?
I agree that working with *anybody* who wants to become agile is
something we should do, and I would not exclude PMPs. But treating
PMPs in a special way and trying hard to incorporate PMBOK ideas into
the well-defined and opposite world of Agile has so far shown no
compelling benefit to me.
alan
alanatlas
Thanks for the clarification. What you said makes a lot of sense and I
think has great value. "PMP Scrum" doesn't.
I'm glad you explained it so we now know what that track is actually
meant to be about.
alan
On Dec 5, 9:06 am, Tobias <tobiasgma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Alan, everyone.
>
> The confusion over "PMP Scrum" is my fault. 1) The title is actually
> a place-holder, and 2) the "AND" in the middle got lost somewhere
> between my pen and the web-team's keyboard.
>
> The actual title of this track will be "When Worlds Collide: Scrum and
> Traditional Project Management (with the possibility of substituting
> PMI for "Traditional Project Management" if that can be done in
> agrement with the PMI). Title aside, the intent of the track is to
> explore the culture clash inherent in moving from a manager-directed
> culture to a self-organized culture. This is the reality many of us
> face, and hearing experience reports, or taking part in explorations
> of how (say) collaboration skills can help us through such
> difficulties are surely welcome.
>
> So sorry for the error that led to this concern. The PMI do want to
> support Scrum, as is apparent by Greg Balestrero's appearance last
> year at the Orlando Gathering, and his follow-up blog post "A
alanatlas
My only point is that there is but one kind of Scrum. It's not "PMP
Scrum". It's not "Almost Scrum". It's not "ScrumBut". It's just scrum
and either you are doing it and getting the value, or you are trying
to do it, or you aren't.
Scrum doesn't have to be renamed or redefined in order to allow people
in all parts of an organization to help scrum teams be successful.
I love the idea of outreach, and education. I am also very sure that
helping people redefine scrum in their heads to reduce the newness and
the differences between it and what went before leads to ineffective
scrum. So let's bring the people to scrum and not bring scrum to the
people. This is case where making things easier just hurts in the long
run.
alan
On Dec 3, 7:57 pm, "Sameer Bendre, CSM" <sameer.s.ben...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Andy Brandt
On Dec 7, 8:03 am, alanatlas <alana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scrum doesn't have to be renamed or redefined in order to allow people
> in all parts of an organization to help scrum teams be successful.
Software Development Process" but they would do all the things Scrum
calls for - would they be more effective than not doing Scrum/USRSDP?
Does the name itself posses any magical power to cure all project
problems?
> I love the idea of outreach, and education. I am also very sure that
> helping people redefine scrum in their heads to reduce the newness and
> the differences between it and what went before leads to ineffective
> scrum. So let's bring the people to scrum and not bring scrum to the
> people. This is case where making things easier just hurts in the long
> run.
all they can - given their circumstances - achieve yet they are more
productive with it than with whatever they used before? Should they do
"ineffective Scrum" or be stuck with whatever they used before
refusing to change unless Scrum is implemented in its full orthodox
form?
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for bringing people to Scrum, but I think
we must not turn Scrum into a fetish, something akin to a project
management religion - it's just a process, nothing more. "Individuals
and interactions over processes and tools" - remember?
--
Best regards,
Andy
http://www.andybrandt.net/
Andy Brandt
On Dec 7, 7:50 am, alanatlas <alana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "and we can certainly learn from some of the principles in the
> PMBOK ..."
>
> Can you provide an example?
Henrik B
I'm well aware of that lot of the agile community mostly thinks that
PMI and PMBOK are opposite to agile. I have lots of experince with
agile but know nothing really about PMBOK, so I cannot
determine for myself if this is true...My interpretation of the
difference has been that "PMI are proponents of command and control",
"PMI are proponents of plan driven development", perhaps PMI relies on
defined processes?
Anyway, I have heard different stories from PMPs in classes I have
taught. Some say that PMPs hand out detailed assignments and follow up
work (!= agile), some say that this is a misunderstanding and that
PMBOK is just a framework that does not prescribe that at all, indeed
it encourages a hands off approach from the project manager as work is
being performed (self organise?).
Could someone that knows PMBOK/PMI shed some light on this? What is it
exactly in PMBOK that is evil ;-)
Thanks
Henrik
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -
John Clifford
Although Scrum is a project management process wrapper (among other
things), it is intentionally minimally-defined. If you look at Ken
Schwaber's original book on Scrum, it really utilizes Scrum as a
mechanism for managing the development team; everything outside the
team itself is seen as a black box that communicates to the team via
the Product Owner. Scrum in and of itself doesn't really cover things
like program and portfolio management, scaling to multiple teams, etc.
Yes, many thought leaders have brought clarity and definition to these
areas, and some of what has been brought is an adaptation of what is
done using deterministic methods. There are some core attributes that
apply to both agile and 'traditional' deterministic approaches to
software development; the differences are in the 'how' more than the
'what.'
Re "treating PMPs in a special way" and "trying hard to incorporate
PMBOK ideas"... I don't know where you get this from my post; perhaps
this is a reflection of your prior experiences. To reiterate my
statement, acknowledging that 'traditional' project managers exist in
most organizations is merely acknowledging reality. To the point, many
people on the Agile side of the fence need to abandon the "PMPs are
bad" meme because it is counterproductive. The quickest way I know of
to a failed Scrum implementation is to denigrate people and poison the
culture. The quickest way I know of to get Scrum adopted successfully
is to spend some time with influential project managers, explain to
them what Scrum really is and how it works, and get them to embrace
the Scrum philosophy enthusiastically whether they become Scrum
Masters or Product Owners... or stay in the PMO and help the teams
against ill-advised meddling. Many project managers have risen from
the development ranks and have tremendous domain and technical
knowledge, along with valuable management and business skills. Most of
these folks aren't wedded (or welded) to the PMBOK; it is merely a
tool that they've tried to use to be effective in their role. They are
not the enemy. Let's show them how Scrum can help them solve problems
that seem impossible or intractable with their current approach, and
make them enthusiastic supporters, instead of entrenched opponents.
And finally, I hope I never get to where I can't learn something from
anyone... even if that something is what not to do.
Sameer Bendre, CSM
I am sure everyone here is putting out their experience in words. I
just came from a small event where Jeff McKenna talked about adopting
Agile.
As I mentioned, I have worked in both environments and certainly would
like to advocate use of Scrum method.
Getting the message across to the PMPs and or higher management in
some client locations is getting to be a tough job - to go Agile.
Wouldn't it make the job easier if I were a PMP and talked in "their"
language to follow Agile methodology?
or am i just hampering my own path as a CSM by trying to do that and
contradicting myself?
Doesn't the "world" out there still look out for PMPs are compared to
CSM's?
I don't mean to deviate from the topic, just trying to find a way to
convince non-agile enterprises to at least think and give a chance.
Suggestions?
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Sameer Bendre, CSM
local PDD in PMI community were not happy about "Agile". (Please note
- Heard from someone who attended, not first hand).
Discouraging? Nope - Makes my decision firm that I NEED to join the
PMP band and advocate the benefits of Agile and Scrum.
On Dec 9, 10:55 pm, "Sameer Bendre, CSM" <sameer.s.ben...@gmail.com>
greeni
2004, the last time I was looking, when there was near zero listings
with Scrum or Agile. But it's not prevalent by any means.
>>Getting the message across to the PMPs and or higher management in some client locations is getting to be a tough job - to go Agile. Wouldn't it make the job easier if I were a PMP and talked in "their" language to follow Agile methodology?...
If we can agree that PMP = tradition, then may I point out that at
Agile2009 there was a presentation on "How to sell a traditional
client on an Agile project plan" by Arin Sime. [My link to the pdf is
http://agile2009.agilealliance.org/files/session_pdfs/Agile2009.pdf]
The Short version:
Strategies for Persuasion
1. Trial by Sprint
2. Case Studies of Success
3. Client/Customer Testimonials
4. Finding a champion in Key Stakeholders
5. Using metrics of success
6. Showing how Agile combats common IT project failures
7. Examples of industry/government leaders using Agile
8. Comparison to other methodologies
9. Listen to their needs and address them
10. Sneak it in
11. Compromise
On Dec 10, 8:50 am, "Sameer Bendre, CSM" <sameer.s.ben...@gmail.com>
alanatlas
In the interest if trying to explain myself better, I want to address
some of the things you said, but really, this has gone on too long as
it is and it has strayed far from the simple point I originaly tried
to make. The SA has improved the description of that track for the
Orlando Gathering, and I'm looking forward to hearing the discussions
on this topic there.
> If a group of people will prefer to call Scrum "Unified Super-Rational
> Software Development Process" but they would do all the things Scrum
> calls for - would they be more effective than not doing Scrum/USRSDP?
> Does the name itself posses any magical power to cure all project
> problems?
regardless of what they call it. But if they want to benefit from the
accumulated knowledge of years and thousands of projects, they will
take advantage of the body of knowledge that has been developed around
scrum, which is a defined, specific thing.
> What if "ineffective Scrum" is
> all they can - given their circumstances - achieve yet they are more
> productive with it than with whatever they used before?
process. If ScrumBut works for them, fine, but ScrumBut is not Scrum.
That's why it has a different name.
> but I think
> we must not turn Scrum into a fetish,
There isn't a good coach out there (I am a coach) who isn't intimately
familiar with adjusting, compromising, and otherwise fitting scrum
into a particular environment in order to achieve certain
improvements. What I did suggest is that Scrum is a known thing
already and that there is value in keeping it that way, so we can
reason about it and so we can make explicit decisions about how we
adjust it to circumstances.
> "Individuals
> and interactions over processes and tools" - remember?
there are things and that they can be defined and then reasoned about,
nor does it suggest doing away with logical rigor. Nor is it license
to do whatever you feel like doing and call it scrum and expect it to
work. If I had a nickel for every crappy Agile implementation I've
seen from a team that said "Oh, we do something that is kind of Agile,
but we didn't want to do scrum/XP exactly" I would, well, probably be
able to mail a first class letter, but you see what I mean. :-)
Cheers,
alan
alanatlas
people who are familiar with it to defend their assertion that there's
all kinds of great stuff in there.
alan
alanatlas
Going back to my original post, the SA seemed to have invented
something called "PMP Scrum" and I wanted to disagree with the notion
that such a thing existed. Tobias came back and explained what was
meant by the phrase and it has since been modified on the SA site and
I'm quite content.
Nowhere have I said that PMPs were bad or that they should be
relegated to the boneyard or exiled from the enterprise. I merely said
that there is no such thing as a special kind of scrum called "PMP
Scrum". I stand by that statement.
I would love to learn something about the PMBOK but nobody will
actually cite anything specific from it.
alan
Andy Brandt
On Dec 10, 6:19 pm, alanatlas <alana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nope. Haven't read it. Not really interested. That's why I am asking
> people who are familiar with it to defend their assertion that there's
> all kinds of great stuff in there.
least skim through it? Just to know your enemy better if not to learn
something.
(Kudos to you for honestly admitting you haven't read it, BTW)
Regards,
Andy
Mark Levison
>>Doesn't the "world" out there still look out for PMPs are compared to CSM's?Job board listings would say that you are correct. It's better than
2004, the last time I was looking, when there was near zero listings
with Scrum or Agile. But it's not prevalent by any means.
>>Getting the message across to the PMPs and or higher management in some client locations is getting to be a tough job - to go Agile. Wouldn't it make the job easier if I were a PMP and talked in "their" language to follow Agile methodology?...
If we can agree that PMP = tradition, then may I point out that at
Agile2009 there was a presentation on "How to sell a traditional
client on an Agile project plan" by Arin Sime. [My link to the pdf is
http://agile2009.agilealliance.org/files/session_pdfs/Agile2009.pdf]
The Short version:
Strategies for Persuasion
1. Trial by Sprint
2. Case Studies of Success
3. Client/Customer Testimonials
4. Finding a champion in Key Stakeholders
5. Using metrics of success
6. Showing how Agile combats common IT project failures
7. Examples of industry/government leaders using Agile
8. Comparison to other methodologies
9. Listen to their needs and address them
Frankly this is the key one - no one wants to change or listen to our/your ideas. But they do have and problems. Ask about their pain and keep your message simple.
Cheers
Mark
|
Mark
Levison | Co-Founder and
Consultant - TheAgileConsortium | Agile Editor @ InfoQ
Recent Entries: Agile
Mailing Lists a Survey, Why
use an Agile Coach
| |
Andy Brandt
On Dec 10, 6:17 pm, alanatlas <alana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The SA has improved the description of that track for the
> Orlando Gathering, and I'm looking forward to hearing the discussions
> on this topic there.
stick to e-mail, at least till next EU Gathering. But for the sake of
brevity I also won't go into details, but just explain what I meant.
So, my point generally was that in my experience waving a
revolutionary banner that says either you do Scrum exactly as we say,
comrades, or you're foolish ScrumButts and by the way all your PMPs
are worthless and all you have been practicising before is hm...
manure is not exactly the best way to win hearts and minds. Especially
hearts and minds of people who have been in the profession for some
time and have their own views based on their own experience.
Interestingly, I don't know why, but it is only some in the Agile camp
that exhibit this kind of attitude towards the PMI and everything that
comes from it. Most PMPs I've met or talked with rather look at Agile
and Scrum as an interesting practice that is worth looking at and
learning from. Somehow I like this kind of attitude better as it is
open to dialogue, as opposed to many statements emanating from the
agile camp - some of which I've (correctly or not) felt were present
in your previous posts.
--
Best regards,
Andy
Kenneth Ugbo
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From: Andy Brandt <akbr...@gmail.com>
To: Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work. <scruma...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, December 11, 2009 10:49:37 AM
Subject: [Scrum] Re: What's PMP Scrum?
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Tobias
history. Earlier this year a group of CSTs, working with Ken Schwaber
did attempt to create a special CSM course that was going by the name
of PMP Scrum. A lot of work went into tailoring the content to suit
the PMP mindset (or something). The effort was made to encourage more
PMPs to learns Scrum. The first (and only) PMP Scrum class attracted
two people as I remember. It didn't run. Meanwhile, PMPs were
attending many other regular CSM classes.
The lesson I pulled from that experiment is that PMPs don't care to be
patronized. PMPs are people first, and people are curious by nature.
Why should someone who has studied the PMBOK be any different?
The track at the Scrum Gathering is not there to patronize, or to give
special preference to members of the PMI, to hand-hold them into
Scrum. No, it is to explore culture clashes and how learning a new way
of thinking can be difficult and often painful -- for all kinds of
people.
I agree with pretty much everything Alan has said on this thread
(except when he used the "c" word -- I personally never compromise
Scrum). And I haven't read the PMBOK either. I don't see a need
because there is nothing in the world of project management practice I
have encountered that makes me think "I want what he's got", or "I
need to learn that way of thinking". Why spending time reading
something unlikely to generate new thinking in me? Like almost
everyone I know in this community I have a backlog of very compelling
books to read by forward-thinkers like Danial Pink, Harrison Owen,
Peter Block, Seth Godin, heck, even Bertram Russell's century-old
works. There is a wealth of literature to provoke and inspire. PMBOK
is not in that league.
I'd love for the Scrum community to stop caring about whether someone
is a PMP or not. Look at the person, look at their passions, their
motivations, their openness, their willingness to explore. Look for
excited eyes. Certificates and experience are the least important
factors. We are building a new normal here, and hanging on to old
ideas just drags it down.
I hope the next Scrum Gathering, with its focus on collaboration and
reconceiving (not compromise, not appeasement) will help to move us
all forward in our thinking about the way we do our work.
Tobias
nela
It's just scrum and either you are doing it and getting the value, or
you are trying to do it, or you aren't. "
trying to push it in a very traditional large european company. And it
is not easy, even with the blessing of the immediate boss.
I have a lot of questions and clarifications needed in Scrum, but -
there is this online exam first, after the two day course.
The interesting thing is I have never heard of Scrum until Nov.this
year, when suggested by the member of the current team. I am what you
refer to as a classic traditional project manager for over 10 years
(in Europe only), only this year finished a level C ipma. So, never
mind the IPMA teachings, lets see what Scrum is, and why is it praised
so much. I must admit - I am impressed. And I am definitely convinced
my team of expert developers can do the same project in less than half
the time, given the freedom to work on that project only. My current
(traditional) project, I finish in Feb/March 2010, which is when the
next one could start - maybe (hopefully :-) using Scrum.
I was attracted to this group by the title :-)
So, does anyone have an idea for me - how to "convert" the
traditionalists, the managers which are convinced the old system is
tried and tested and works better? What is the best argument?
I have tried saying, the time reduces, the PT reduces, bla bla... did
not work. Yet.
I have the energy, I have the motivation, I have a dedicated highly
motivated team, and we have all been to the two day thing about Scrum.
One girl from the team is of an opinion that it wouldnt work, but only
one - for now.
Ideas?
thx
Nela.
nela
language to follow Agile methodology?... "
be the better system, or looks to be. However, the higher line
managers (that are not running projects at all) are harder to
convince. Me - I am convinced. Willing to try new. My only goal as a
PM is to do the job effectively, as quickly as possible, with good
quality and a satisfied team /satisfied client /satisfied top
management.
Main problem - "we cannot give you 6 people for 6 months to be 100% on
your project"
Always the people (developers, architects) are working on 3-5
projects, some on 6-8 projects, simultaneously.
:-(
Nela.
Jeroen Buisman
I think it's a misconception that members of a Scrum team should be 100% dedicated (with regards to their time spent per week) to the projects the team has itself committed to. Teammembers will be sick, on holiday, will have other meetings, etc. That's a reality.
However, teammembers should be able to focus within a set time on the tasks they have agreed to finish. If that means that 60% of their week is devoted to your project, doing it in a Scrum manner, then that's ok. It shouldn't be 20% this week, and 100% next week, and they should be given the opportunity by your company to work undisturbed on your project during the time that has been assigned to your project.
Met vriendelijke groet,
InfoReports Business Intelligence B.V.
Jeroen Buisman
Algemeen directeur
www.inforeports.nl
T: 033-2540223
F: 033-2582338
@: jbui...@inforeports.nl
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: scruma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:scruma...@googlegroups.com] Namens nela
Verzonden: woensdag 16 december 2009 22:57
Aan: Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work.
Onderwerp: [Scrum] Re: What's PMP Scrum?
Peter Hundermark, CSC, CST
On Dec 16, 11:56 pm, nela <nela.soldatovjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Main problem - "we cannot give you 6 people for 6 months to be 100% on
> your project"
> Always the people (developers, architects) are working on 3-5
> projects, some on 6-8 projects, simultaneously.
I disagree with the advice offered by Jeroen. As a ScrumMaster, you
need to challenge the madness of people alocated to multiple
simultaneous projects. It is very easy to show that this is not only
inefficient (due to the cost of frequent contaxt switching), but it is
also yields lower ROI. The underlying reason for this madness is that
no-one (up to now) is willing to challenge the demands of business to
work on all projects at once.
(Of course, it will happen occasionally that a specialised team member
such as a dba is required to work on two teams. My "rule" is that this
must be the exception and never on more than two teams at once.)
Peter
nela
thanks for that! Well, I have what it takes to "challenge the
madness", but I am still working on the strategy. Not sure how to
present it. Noone has time, everybodys calendars are full, including
mine...
Anyway, still taking this all in, and thinking of suggestions...
In the meantime, I am quietly taking the teams opinions, one by one
when I get the chance. Holiday season doesnt help, but I do not give
up.
Nela.
On Dec 17, 8:24 pm, "Peter Hundermark, CSC, CST"
Michael James
> As a ScrumMaster, you need to challenge the madness of people alocated to multiple
> simultaneous projects.
The habit of substituting the word "resources" (or "human resources") for "people" seems to be almost a religion with some. It becomes comical when referring to a single person. This shows the lengths we're willing to go to avoid recognizing we're dealing with human beings rather than abstract widgets. The PMBOK seems to actively promote this mindset, including a whole chapter on "Human Resources Management."
I just noticed this sentence in my PMBOK Guide: "Clear criteria for rewards and a planned system for their use will promote and reinforce desired behaviors." As if treating people as rats in a Skinner box will get the results we want. Corporate behaviorism has been pretty well debunked by now (Deming, Alfie Kohn, George Loewenstein, Dan Ariely....) but here we find this myth asserted as scientific fact.
Referring to an earlier thread, it's tempting to paper over these fundamental differences by saying nice things about "complimentary approaches." It seems more honest to come out and say the PMBOK is incompatible with Scrum.
--mj
nela
exactly is PMBOK??
(too lazy to google it... :-)
Nela
Ananth Vishakantiah
Regards
Ananth
________________________________________
From: scruma...@googlegroups.com [scruma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of nela [nela.sold...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 04:08 PM
To: Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work.
Subject: [Scrum] Re: What's PMP Scrum?
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
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Ananth Vishakantiah
Project Manager - PMP
Phone: +918040980000
Cell: +919686683689
eMids Technologies Pvt. Ltd.
A CMMi Level 3 and ISO 27001 Company
DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is "eMids Technologies" confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this message by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please contact delive...@emids.com immediately if you have received this message in error. Thank you.
Ron Jeffries
wrote:
> Sorry if I sound stupid, but I always ask if I do not know: ---> what
> exactly is PMBOK??
> (too lazy to google it... :-)
Too lazy to answer. People will show your questions more respect if
you put in a bit of effort.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself.
(I am large, I contain multitudes.) --Walt Whitman
Dan Rawsthorne
the Body, which clearly includes Agile practices, and sometimes refers
to the *Book*, which is what gets tested for.
Dan Rawsthorne, PhD, CST
Senior Coach, Danube Technologies
d...@danube.com, 425-269-8628
Ananth Vishakantiah wrote:
> Project Management Book of knowledge = PMBOK
>
> *Regards
> Ananth*
> ________________________________________
> From: scruma...@googlegroups.com [scruma...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of nela [nela.sold...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 04:08 PM
> To: Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work.
> Subject: [Scrum] Re: What's PMP Scrum?
>
> Sorry if I sound stupid, but I always ask if I do not know: ---> what
> exactly is PMBOK??
> (too lazy to google it... :-)
>
> Nela
>
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
> To post to this group, send email to scruma...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> scrumallianc...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/scrumalliance?hl=en.
>
>
>
> *Ananth Vishakantiah *
>
> Project Manager - PMP
>
> Phone: +918040980000
>
> Cell: +919686683689
>
> *eMids Technologies Pvt. Ltd. *
>
> A CMMi Level 3 and ISO 27001 Company
>
> www.emids.com
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is "eMids Technologies"
> confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for
> the addressee. Access to this message by anyone else is unauthorized.
> If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, or
> distribution of the message, or any action or omission taken by you in
> reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please contact
> delive...@emids.com <mailto:delive...@emids.com> immediately
> if you have received this message in error. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
Peter Hundermark, CSC, CST
even more so that you have read it. What is the world coming to ;-).
Peter
Michael James
http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Project-Management-Knowledge-ebook/dp/B002JPJ19K
I would call this book a compendium of how to do things the way we did in the last century. Knowing the content is a good way to disarm arguments based on its (essentially Tayloristic) misconceptions.
Most project managers I meet are a bit older and more experienced, often former developers, looking for a way to help. The *role* itself is incompatible with Scrum though.
--mj
nela
I agree totally, it sounds stupid to me too. I do it myself as it
happens, dont know why, but it is just a word used in yearly planning,
either PDs or Ressources... And it is - People...
I now need to shift cca 150 PDs to next year, and I have to allocate
the Pools, which Pools do the required Resources come under. ... And
they are already all over 100% booked anyway.
Maybe this is the wrong company to work the Scrum... ...
greeni
can be connected to work together. It also points out that there is
nothing in the pmbok that dictates a waterfall approach: "In fact,
agile methodologies, if followed with discipline and rigor, are
compliant with CMMI and PMBOK best practices, just as traditional
waterfall is compliant. What’s different--beyond the obvious command-
and-control dictatorship vs. self-organizing teams--is when and how
these practices are executed and the new lexicon used by agile
practitioners. "
[http://www.stickyminds.com/sitewide.asp?
ObjectId=10365&Function=DETAILBROWSE&ObjectType=COL&sqry=%2AZ%28SM
%29%2AJ%28COL%29%2AR%28createdate%29%2AK%28colarchive%29%2AF%28%7E
%29%2A&sidx=8&sopp=10&sitewide.asp?sid=1&sqry=%2AZ%28SM%29%2AJ%28COL
%29%2AR%28createdate%29%2AK%28colarchive%29%2AF%28%7E
%29%2A&sidx=8&sopp=10]
On Dec 18 2009, 2:24 pm, Michael James <mich...@danube.com> wrote:
> You'll probably be even more shocked to hear I'm a PMI member (plus a recovering software "architect"). One of my PMP buddies gave me a PDF of the Third Edition for my Kindle. I just noticed an official Fourth Edition is available on Kindle, so I'll own that in about 60 seconds.
> http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Project-Management-Knowledge-ebook/dp/B00...
Michael James
Here's some quotes from the PMBOK Guide Fourth Edition suggesting the unsuitability of "project management" to product development with Scrum:
"Projects are not ongoing efforts."
"The purpose of a project is to attain its objective and then terminate."
"• Recognition and rewards. Clear criteria for rewards and a planned system for their use will promote and reinforce desired behaviors."
"Part of the team development process involves recognizing and rewarding desirable behavior. The original plans concerning ways to reward people are developed during Human Resource Planning (Section 9.1). Award decisions are made, formally or informally, during the process of managing the project team through performance appraisals"
"For example, if the schedule is shortened, often the budget needs to be increased to add additional resources to complete the same amount of work in less time."
--mj
Fuchs, Anton
I don't know PMP very well but would veto for projects in general.
Without SCRUM we'd have miserably failed our latest project (11months
timeline). The requirements for the project where changing on a regulary
basis and it was extremely helpful to be able to handle/plan this on a
Sprint bases.
Having said this...for waterfall model projects it might not show the
same value it has for more agile project environments. Still it gives
the project members more flexibility.
Cheers,
Toni
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael James [mailto:mic...@danube.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:17 PM
> To: scruma...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Scrum] Re: What's PMP Scrum?
>
> (reposting)
> Here's some quotes from the PMBOK Guide Fourth Edition
> suggesting the unsuitability of "project management" to
> product development with Scrum:
>
> "Projects are not ongoing efforts."
>
> "The purpose of a project is to attain its objective and then
> terminate."
>
> "* Recognition and rewards. Clear criteria for rewards and a
nela
I read this thread with great interest, to see all the opinions on
traditional vs agile.
I would like to add something on my behalf, as I am what you refer to
as PMP moving to agile.
I would like to ask you all to please not put all the traditional PMs
in the same pot - as people hard to deal with, or people that
stubbornly want to command their team and are not open to new
horizons. It is not true for all. Certainly not for me, and I cannot
be the only one.
In the meantime (the whole of Feb.) before I start the new project
with scrum, I am reading everything I can lay my hands on, and my boss
supports me in ordering any books I want.
So, looking into Tobias's statement:
"...to explore the culture clash inherent in moving from a manager-
directed culture to a self-organized culture..."
"...educating people immersed in a PMP world that Scrum can be a new
way of solving complex problems..."
I still get the feeling that you might think that all the PMPs of
this world are totally against Scrum or Agile,... it is just not true.
I was immersed in a PMP world, until I realised there is another
world. Scrum. In 10 years time it may be something else. So, if it is
better, we should look at it.
Don't get me wrong, I find this discussion very healthy, I just wanted
to tell you all - there is one PM here, that is willing to change
completely, after cca 10 years of waterfall system. :-)
Truly, it is because I experienced all the variants of the traditional
system, and it is so ineffective, so something must be done, I just
did not have an alternative. Then Scrum came along (I am late in
discovering it but better late then never). I just have the problem of
convincing the higher powers that it can be done better - as they are
all used to projects taking a long time, going over budget, having 1
or 2 change requests, bla bla... So how can a project possibly be run
without it ... etc. And who am I to tell them that 1 project out of
200 of them, will be better run, then 199 projects run in a
traditional way.
I may not be online every day, reading this group, but when I do, I
read it with great interest!
Thanks guys!!
Regards,
Nela.
Michael James
The project manager role as described by the PMI in the PMBOK Guide is inconsistent with Scrum, and pretending it's not isn't helping anyone. Even the definition of "project" is troublesome for *product* development. For new product development, the project manager's role (as defined by the PMBOK Guide) is impossible. According to one study, success is inversely correlated to the number of managers. And every day, new project managers and MBAs are being taught approaches that are considered harmful by most of us in the Agile movement.
In fairness to the PMI, note the PMBOK Guide describes itself as a framework, just as Scrum does.
--mj
Terri Mullen
Most PMP's are governed by the company / client organization which initiates
the work. I am a PMP - have tried to initiate a more agile approach with my
client PMO's only to be criticized for being either non-compliant or
confrontational. I've recently gotten on the Agile bandwagon and gotten
initial SCRUM certification and have been thinking about how to help my
clients adapt to a more agile approach.
Most of my experience is not in developing software - but in integrating
systems and applications for web services - but there is much to be used
from SCRUM.
I will no doubt need to balance corporate processes with new ideas and I'm
happy to work with companies to find ways to do this. Adopting Agile or
SCRUM must be embraced by the organization as well as the PMP and I'm ready.
I don't know of a single company that isn't trying to find ways to reduce
unnecessary cost while maintaining quicker time to production.
It's a good idea not to generalize about the PM.
Regards,
Terri
-----Original Message-----
From: scruma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:scruma...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of nela
Thanks guys!!
Regards,
Nela.
--
Mark Levison
. According to one study, success is inversely correlated to the number of managers. And every day, new project managers and MBAs are being taught approaches that are considered harmful by most of us in the Agile movement.
|
|
Mark
Levison | Agile Pain Relief
Consulting | Agile Editor @
InfoQ
Recent Entries: Self
Inflicted Agile Injuries, Why
use an Agile Coach
| |
Paulo Roberto V. Camara
And do you know what are these schools you mentioned?
Thanks!
--
Mark Levison
Hi Mark! Do you have more references regarding this subject (Lean concepts applied to sw dev)?
Well - I assume that you're aware of the Poppendieck's books? The lean mailing lists - see: http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/06/agile-mailing-lists.html
And do you know what are these schools you mentioned?
Chicago is the only one I remember.
nela
to quote Michael:
"The project manager role as described by the PMI in the PMBOK Guide
is inconsistent with Scrum"
as far as I understood, the project manager does not exist at all in
Scrum!? So, my IPMA certification was in vain? It wasn't, in my
opinion. Everything is worth knowing. But choosing what to use - is up
to you.
Scrum has SM and PO and the team. And that is ok with me. My point is
to be in the successful team to develop good quality software. That is
the goal. )I am not a developer, or architect). Who is going to be
called what, is totally irrelevant. I am ready for the challenge.
(As long as the salary creeps up a bit every year :-)
cheers,
Nela.
alanatlas
curriculum that includes Agile.
alan
On Feb 1, 5:20 am, Mark Levison <m...@mlevison.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Paulo Roberto V. Camara <probe...@ciandt.com
>
> > wrote:
> > Hi Mark! Do you have more references regarding this subject (Lean concepts
> > applied to sw dev)?
>
> Well - I assume that you're aware of the Poppendieck's books? The lean
> mailing lists - see:http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/06/agile-mailing-lists.html
>
>
>
> > And do you know what are these schools you mentioned?
>
> Chicago is the only one I remember.
>
> Cheers
> Mark
>
> *Mark Levison* | Agile Pain Relief Consulting
> <http://agilepainrelief.com/>| Agile
> Editor @ InfoQ <http://www.infoq.com/about.jsp>
> Blog <http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/> |
> Twitter<http://twitter.com/mlevison>| Office: (613) 862-2538
> Recent Entries: Self Inflicted Agile
> Injuries<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/12/self-inflicted-agile-injuri...>,
> Why use an Agile
> Coach<http://www.notesfromatooluser.com/2009/11/why-use-an-agile-coach.html>
nela
(as I don't see any other girls here...)
I would like to ask the question here about project/product. Michael
said:
Even the definition of "project" is troublesome for *product*
development.
In the last couple of years I have not had product development at all,
in 3 projects all together. One of them was developing 4 products in
one project, the others were just doing bit of this and bit of that.
The one I am getting ready for now - is a product, finally.
I would like to point out there are a lot of projects which do not
develop products at all. Should they also be candidates for Scrum,
especially when the team sits in close proximity anyway?
One life example: plugging holes in security in 20+ different
applications across the company, including https setup instead of http
on all web-apps, it was all one project. I know it could have been cut
up into many. But all together I had over 70 security issues to fix.
And it is now fixed. So - it could have been done with Scrum? Maybe
not, as in this case it was over 30 different applications involved
and the development teams were all over the place. I suppose it could
have been cut up into 4 projects for 4 teams, and make them into Scrum
teams. But they were not doing only that. The same teams had to also
be available for the maintenance issues of their particular product.
Now again, I have the compliance issue, and all the products have to
comply to a particular data standard. I have over 60 different
products, some running as standalone, some on the web, and 3 different
development teams, sitting on different floors of the same building. I
have not decided yet to do this one with Scrum ... ... what do you
think?
To come back to the first question - is Scrum mainly for new product
development? Or maybe it is best to be used for clean brand new
product development?
Thanks,
Nela.
reynaldo bendijo
I don't know just let me know to my part
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Scrum Alliance - tra...
George Dinwiddie
nela wrote:
> To come back to the first question - is Scrum mainly for new product
> development? Or maybe it is best to be used for clean brand new
> product development?
Not at all. The definition of "project," according to the PMI, is that
it has a definite beginning and end. Scrum is more suited for ongoing
work. It's not that it won't work on projects, but disbanding the team
periodically has a high cost.
- George
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Levison
Cheers
Mark
|
|
|
Mark
Levison | Agile Pain Relief
Consulting | Agile Editor @
InfoQ
|
|
Recent Entries: Self
Inflicted Agile Injuries, Why
use an Agile Coach
|
Michael James
Since I love Scrum I'd probably prefer it for any kind of project. But for something that truly is short term, I wonder if it would be more efficient to use a task force. As I understand it, military task forces can be formed quickly because of uniform, standardized training, a multitude of defined roles, and defined relationships between these roles.
--mj
Alberto Caeiro
_______________________________
Alberto Augusto Caeiro Júnior, PMP
Project Management Officer
Safari Recrutamento
+55 21 3114 6543
nela
bye!
Nela.
On Feb 24, 12:42 pm, Alberto Caeiro
<albe...@safarirecrutamento.com.br> wrote:
> Hi Nela and others,
>
> In my point of view you can use Scrum in project as well (and not only in
> product development), and you can still use PMI approach. If you read if
> carefully, PMBoK is based on the concept of Rolling Wave planning, which can
> be easily adapt/customize to fit Scrum (or any other software development
> methodology like XP, FDD, TDD, etc).
>
> In Brazil we have a major player at the internet business running most (if
> not all) of it of it development projects using Scrum.
>
> For reference, there are another list called agile project management (I
> believe it's a Yahoo Group) that maybe of help in your endeavor..
>
> Cheers
> Alberto
>
> _______________________________
> Alberto Augusto Caeiro Júnior, PMP
> Project Management Officer
> Safari Recrutamento
> +55 21 3114 6543
>
> 2010/2/24 Michael James <mich...@danube.com>
> > scrumallianc...@googlegroups.com<scrumalliance%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/scrumalliance?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Scrum Alliance - transforming the world of work." group.
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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