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So much for free and fair markets.
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David Spain
Dec 13, 2014, 10:32:03 AM12/13/14
to
http://spacenews.com/airbus-upbraided-at-home-for-shopping-spacex/
How dare Airbus shop for the best deal! How would the socialista's maintain any controls over their peoples if this practice were to become commonplace?
David
How dare Airbus shop for the best deal! How would the socialista's maintain any controls over their peoples if this practice were to become commonplace?
David
Jeff Findley
Dec 13, 2014, 12:03:04 PM12/13/14
to
In article <e59d9ffc-9251-41fe...@googlegroups.com>,
david....@gmail.com says...
Don't worry, they're going to pour billions of Euros into developing
Ariane 6 that should be more competitive on price. More government
money to compete with the global commercial launch market.
But, let's not forget that the US has done much the same with the
government funding both EELVs even when they were clearly more expensive
than other options at the time (i.e. even before SpaceX, EELVs were
still quite expensive). So the US has had a quite socialist medium to
large launch vehicle market too.
Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer
david....@gmail.com says...
Ariane 6 that should be more competitive on price. More government
money to compete with the global commercial launch market.
But, let's not forget that the US has done much the same with the
government funding both EELVs even when they were clearly more expensive
than other options at the time (i.e. even before SpaceX, EELVs were
still quite expensive). So the US has had a quite socialist medium to
large launch vehicle market too.
Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer
jacob navia
Dec 13, 2014, 12:18:10 PM12/13/14
to
"red" immediately... :-)
So, this "socialista" government and his economy minister from
Rothschild's bank (a known socialist haven) just see no need to give
SpaceX some contracts...
What a shame! Where are we going?
Europeans do not want the BEST deal as the americans see it?
How do they DARE?
They are all communist these people!
Sylvia Else
Dec 13, 2014, 9:18:49 PM12/13/14
to
Sylvia.
David Spain
Dec 15, 2014, 2:36:12 PM12/15/14
to
In fact, unless the ESA wants to subcontract a significant amount of their manufacturing to USA providers, why co-sign and, more importantly, co-fund ANY space agreements with them?
Trade is a two-way street, right?
Dave
jacob navia
Dec 15, 2014, 5:37:29 PM12/15/14
to
Le 15/12/2014 20:36, David Spain a écrit :
> I've got a counter proposal. How about a big fat TARIFF on any US
company wanting to use Arianespace as a launch provider?
Why should not I also think it*outrageous* that ANY US company would
> I've got a counter proposal. How about a big fat TARIFF on any US
company wanting to use Arianespace as a launch provider?
consider ANY launch provider other than ULA, SpaceX, Orbital, etc. etc.
you name it...
The customers from the U.S. represent just 25% of ESA customers, and
retiring that part would force ESA to develop even more,lower its costs,
and search more customers elsewhere.
In their latest meeting concerning ESA, the union has decided to develop
a new rocket, cheaper to use, precisely in search of other markets for
space technologies.
Jeff Findley
Dec 16, 2014, 6:07:57 AM12/16/14
to
In article <m6nnr3$kmg$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, ja...@spamsink.net says...
And just where are they going to find the billions in Euros to fund this
development? This would not be government funding the development of
what should be a commercial vehicle, is it?
In an era where Elon Musk was able to fund development of Falcon 9
without government money, why should ESA be allowed to continue with the
farce of fair competition? In fact, the US was accused of "dumping"
Falcon 9 launches on the global market. That is outrageous. SpaceX is
free to set its own launch prices based on its own business model,
especially since the US government didn't directly fund Falcon 9's
development.
development? This would not be government funding the development of
what should be a commercial vehicle, is it?
In an era where Elon Musk was able to fund development of Falcon 9
without government money, why should ESA be allowed to continue with the
farce of fair competition? In fact, the US was accused of "dumping"
Falcon 9 launches on the global market. That is outrageous. SpaceX is
free to set its own launch prices based on its own business model,
especially since the US government didn't directly fund Falcon 9's
development.
jacob navia
Dec 16, 2014, 8:10:01 AM12/16/14
to
Le 16/12/2014 12:07, Jeff Findley a écrit :
> And just where are they going to find the billions in Euros to fund this
> development? This would not be government funding the development of
> what should be a commercial vehicle, is it?
http://www.eso.org/public/videos/eso1312a/
> And just where are they going to find the billions in Euros to fund this
> development? This would not be government funding the development of
> what should be a commercial vehicle, is it?
<quote>
In the afterglow of the Rosetta mission's success in landing on a comet,
the member states of ESA met in Luxembourg in early December to look
forward to future challenges. Among the priorities is the development
and construction of the new rocket, Ariane 6, which is seen as essential
to maintaining Europe's lead in the launcher market. Then there's the
ExoMars mission to further explore the 'Red Planet' and look for signs
of life. But it's not just about probes - ESA's manned spaceflight
programme also has momentum, with new astronauts currently in training
and due to fly in 2015 and 2016. So, as the agency marks a half century
of Europe's space sector, it's onwards and upwards for the next 50 years.
<end quote>
<quote from Mr Findley>
why should ESA be allowed to continue with the
farce of fair competition?
<end quote>
farce of fair competition?
ESA is a very good space agency. I do not see any reason to dismantle it
and pass space exploration to some improbable venture capitalists...
We have just to look to what NASA is going through to see that
privatization is not a good way.
With all respect for your position, let's agree that we disagree in this
issue.
jacob
Jeff Findley
Dec 16, 2014, 1:45:17 PM12/16/14
to
In article <m6pav5$hpo$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, ja...@spamsink.net says...
considering that both versions of their Falcon 9 have not had a serious
launch failure. For Falcon 9, the one flight that had a single engine
fail on the first stage was a partial failure only, since the primary
payload, Dragon, was successfully delivered to ISS. The other 12
flights were successful.
Contrast that with Ariane 5's flight record. Of its first 14 flights,
two were failures and another two were partial failures. Granted,
flights 15 through 77 were successful, so it works, but simply isn't
economical anymore.
> We have just to look to what NASA is going through to see that
> privatization is not a good way.
>
> With all respect for your position, let's agree that we disagree in this
> issue.
So do you feel SpaceX is "dumping" Falcon 9 on the global market?
http://spacenews.com/42252french-official-invokes-us-market-dumping-
to-make-case-for-ariane-6/
From above:
"The European launcher faces a very rough international competition,
and it's all the rougher because in the United States, for example,
institutional backing and non-European rules allow launchers to be
sold to government customers at a price that is twice as high as the
vehicles sold at export," Fioraso said at the 16th
Interparliamentary Space Conference.
"This competition, which just about constitutes dumping, is why
France, with the coordination of the European Space Agency, has
proposed a common Ariane 6 designed by agencies, industrial
contractors and satellite operator customers," she said.
Allegations of dumping and other contentious practices are a
regular feature of U.S.-European commercial negotiations.
Here in the US, the voting public generally does not support the federal
government competing with private industry. So yes, we'll have to agree
to disagree on this.
>
> Le 16/12/2014 12:07, Jeff Findley a écrit :
> > And just where are they going to find the billions in Euros to fund this
> > development? This would not be government funding the development of
> > what should be a commercial vehicle, is it?
>
> http://www.eso.org/public/videos/eso1312a/
>
> <quote>
> In the afterglow of the Rosetta mission's success in landing on a comet,
> the member states of ESA met in Luxembourg in early December to look
> forward to future challenges. Among the priorities is the development
> and construction of the new rocket, Ariane 6, which is seen as essential
> to maintaining Europe's lead in the? launcher market. Then there's the
> Le 16/12/2014 12:07, Jeff Findley a écrit :
> > And just where are they going to find the billions in Euros to fund this
> > development? This would not be government funding the development of
> > what should be a commercial vehicle, is it?
>
> http://www.eso.org/public/videos/eso1312a/
>
> <quote>
> In the afterglow of the Rosetta mission's success in landing on a comet,
> the member states of ESA met in Luxembourg in early December to look
> forward to future challenges. Among the priorities is the development
> and construction of the new rocket, Ariane 6, which is seen as essential
> ExoMars mission to further explore the 'Red Planet' and look for signs
> of life. But it's not just about probes - ESA's manned spaceflight
> programme also has momentum, with new astronauts currently in training
> and due to fly in 2015 and 2016. So, as the agency marks a half century
> of Europe's space sector, it's onwards and upwards for the next 50 years.
> <end quote>
>
> <quote from Mr Findley>
> why should ESA be allowed to continue with the
> farce of fair competition?
> <end quote>
>
> ESA is a very good space agency. I do not see any reason to dismantle it
> and pass space exploration to some improbable venture capitalists...
Describing SpaceX as "improbable venture capitalists" seems quite odd
> of life. But it's not just about probes - ESA's manned spaceflight
> programme also has momentum, with new astronauts currently in training
> and due to fly in 2015 and 2016. So, as the agency marks a half century
> of Europe's space sector, it's onwards and upwards for the next 50 years.
> <end quote>
>
> <quote from Mr Findley>
> why should ESA be allowed to continue with the
> farce of fair competition?
> <end quote>
>
> ESA is a very good space agency. I do not see any reason to dismantle it
> and pass space exploration to some improbable venture capitalists...
considering that both versions of their Falcon 9 have not had a serious
launch failure. For Falcon 9, the one flight that had a single engine
fail on the first stage was a partial failure only, since the primary
payload, Dragon, was successfully delivered to ISS. The other 12
flights were successful.
Contrast that with Ariane 5's flight record. Of its first 14 flights,
two were failures and another two were partial failures. Granted,
flights 15 through 77 were successful, so it works, but simply isn't
economical anymore.
> We have just to look to what NASA is going through to see that
> privatization is not a good way.
>
> With all respect for your position, let's agree that we disagree in this
> issue.
http://spacenews.com/42252french-official-invokes-us-market-dumping-
to-make-case-for-ariane-6/
From above:
"The European launcher faces a very rough international competition,
and it's all the rougher because in the United States, for example,
institutional backing and non-European rules allow launchers to be
sold to government customers at a price that is twice as high as the
vehicles sold at export," Fioraso said at the 16th
Interparliamentary Space Conference.
"This competition, which just about constitutes dumping, is why
France, with the coordination of the European Space Agency, has
proposed a common Ariane 6 designed by agencies, industrial
contractors and satellite operator customers," she said.
Allegations of dumping and other contentious practices are a
regular feature of U.S.-European commercial negotiations.
Here in the US, the voting public generally does not support the federal
government competing with private industry. So yes, we'll have to agree
to disagree on this.
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