Using The Asteroid Belt

[William Mook]

The asteroid belt is located between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter.
It is occupied by minor planets. Half the mass of the belt is
contained in the four largest asteroids: Ceres, Vesta, Pallas, and
Hygiea. These have mean diameters of more than 400 km. Ceres is 950 km
in diameter. The rest range down to the size of a dust particle. The
asteroid material is so thinly distributed that multiple unmanned
spacecraft have traversed it without incident. A fine dust circulates
there and forms a major component of the zodiacal light. Individual
asteroids within the main belt are categorized by their spectra, with
most falling into three basic groups: carbonaceous (C-type), silicate
(S-type), and metal-rich (M-type). The total mass is 3.2e+21 kg. A
single kg self-replicating payload landing on Vesta produces a copy
every hour - is capable of converting the entire mass of the Asteroid
belt to industrial purposes in 71.43 doubling periods. Less than 72
hours - 3 days. Travel times to asteroids is the limiting factors.
With constant gee micro-fusion rockets and self-replicating systems it
will take a few months to get a handle on the asteroid belt.

What to do with it?

Build a ring toroid with a poloidal radius of 2,000 meters and a
toroidal radius of Ceres' semi-major axis (414 billion meters). The
surface area of this ring is 8.07 trillion acres. The mass of the
four largest asteroids divided by this surface area is 49 metric tons
per square meter. This consists of a high strength steel shell with a
polymer coating carrying a layer of soil and water. The toroid is
built in sections that rotate in the the poloidal direction to produce
a 1 gee radial acceleration. The surface velocity is 140 m/sec (505
kph, 312 mph) rotating once every 90 seconds.

To fill the interior of the toroid with an Earth-like atmosphere
requires 100x the oxygen and nitrogen found on Earth. The oxygen is
available in Venus' atmosphere - in the form of CO2 which is reduced
to C and O2. The Nitrogen is found in Neptune's moon Triton. The
water is found partly in Triton as well and in Saturn's moon
Enceladus.

A ring of zone plates is assembled at the Lagrange Ring 1 inside the
toroid's orbit forming a ring of condensers. This ring is 8 km wide.
It focuses light to windows located around the ring where sections
meet. From there it is conducted to the interior of each section
where light is projected into a poloidal pattern that rotates around
the spinning section every 24 hours. The peak intensity is 1000 Watts
per square meter at local 'noon' and falls off along a cosine curve +
and - six hours from local 'noon'. Full intensity sunlight at the end
of each section operates high intensity solar power 24/7 for industry
as well as high intensity aeroponics producing 100 g of food
continuously per square meter. About 40 square meters of aeroponics
are needed to sustain each person. Another 100 square meters of solar
industry are needed to sustain each person at a very high level.

Within the 'habitation zone' 1,000 acres per person is available - one
family of four every 1.29 km along the ring. Using these homes as
models

http://janegrey.hubpages.com/hub/Castles-for-Sale-Ireland

Equipped with robotic servants made of self-replicating machine cells.

Travel along the ring is accomplished by solar powered maglev capable
of achieving 2,100 km/sec. At this speed the gee forces of travel
along the toridal direction attains 1 gee at this radius from the
Sun. It takes about 30 degrees of distance along the toroid (1/12th
total) to get up to this speed, and another 30 degrees to stop -
limiting ourselves to one gee. It takes 57 hours to get up to speed
at one gee. 57 hours to slow down at one gee. It takes 180 hours to
travel half way around the toroid. About a week to get anything from
the most distant points.

There are 81,908 regions each 31,758 km long. Each contains 98,475
people in 24,619 homesteads of 4,000 acres each. Each is served by a
sectional town center which can be reached in 1 hour's travel from the
most distant point. A person at one end can visit a person at the
other end in 1.4 hours. This is the time it takes to visit the
adjoining town - which is 2 one hour lengths (L) away. Anything less
than 57 hours - less than 3,250 lengths or 1,625 town centers - is
proportional the square root of the distance in times. For the
nearest 40 cities (in each direction) we have the following travel
schedules.

L hrs L hrs L hrs L hrs
2 1.4 22 4.7 42 6.5 62 7.9
4 2.0 24 4.9 44 6.6 64 8.0
6 2.4 26 5.1 46 6.8 66 8.1
8 2.8 28 5.3 48 6.9 68 8.2
10 3.2 30 5.5 50 7.1 70 8.4
12 3.5 32 5.7 52 7.2 72 8.5
14 3.7 34 5.8 54 7.3 74 8.6
16 4.0 36 6.0 56 7.5 76 8.7
18 4.2 38 6.2 58 7.6 78 8.8
20 4.5 40 6.3 60 7.7 80 8.9

With a 2,000 meter radius - we have a 4,000 meter diameter and a 6,282
meter circumference along the poloidal direction. Encasing the
poloidally rotating toroid section is a 7.7 meter channel that is 100
meters deep. With a 3.8 meter maglev car width, we have 1,625
channels around the periphery with 3,250 surfaces 100 meters tall.
With the ability to travel at levels we have seamless transition from
local, regional and global levels - each track with an assigned
direction and each altitude a seamless transition of speed. Every
vehicles travels at the same speed and direction. In this way
personal rapid transit with automated vehicles is efficiently
implemented from any point to any other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu2QAggLM7A

The transition from a poloidally rotating section moving at 312 mph to
a non rotating channel is an interesting one. The vehicle closes the
airlock in which it is sitting along with its own access door. This
is achieved as seamlessly as a fold away roof these days. The airlock
is evacuated and the car is released and accelerates laterally along a
helical chute that connects it from the to a toroidal channel starting
in a poloidal direction. All along the way the car banks to maintain
one gee normal acceleration through the floor. When it is moving in
the toroidal direction of choice, it then undergoes linear
acceleration at one gee while orienting itself to maintain the
acceleration vector through the floor. The vehicle quickly twists and
turns to maintain stable gravity. Sensitive individuals will feel
unbalanced due to shifts in their inner ears. A drink or cloud of
smoke or objects lying on a surface will twist in unusual ways.
Acceleration will remain unaffected. Things will stay in place. This
will last only a fraction of a second and settle down. As the vehicle
accelerates, it will climb in its channel to the altitude assigned to
their speed. Lower altitudes will have vehicles oriented along their
direction of travel so the acceleration vector is pointed in the
toroidal direction. As speeds approach the 2,100 km/sec limit
vehicles will orient along the toroidal radius away from the Sun -
with centripetal acceleration providing 1 gee force. This change of
orientation will take place over a 57 hour period and not be sensed by
the individuals within the vehicles.

When arriving at one's destination the process is reversed. The
vehicle is slowed at one gee until it reaches 312 mph minimum speed
and exits out of the bottom of the channel into a helical chute that
turns its direction from the toroidal to the poloidal direction
again. The vehicle enters an airlock and comes to a rest within it.
The airlock is filled with air. The vehicle opens as the airlock
opens to the interior. The passengers and cargo exit.

Beyond this form of transport, the interior of the toroid will be
equipped with more ancient forms of transport in use on Earth today.
This includes walking, aircraft, automobiles, ships, boats, trains,
blimps, carriages and horses.

People are free also to incorporate holdings among themselves to form
public roadways and airways as well as private towns villages and
cities. This is an important fact to keep in mind among a population
where every free hold is 4,000 acres and who own unlimited capacity to
product whatever they like from virtually limitless resources
available to them. Consider that Las Vegas started out as a 120 acre
city. The Vatican is 110 acres. With AI and self replicating
machines, some very interesting places will be built by the free
humanity inhabiting this toroid.

[William Mook]

The difference in circumference between 3.1 ppb - parts per billion.
Well within the limits for even high carbon steels. With a Young's
modulus of 30,000 psi and a difference in length between the inner and
outer portions of the toroid ring 989,478 inches we expend 2.47 giga-
joules in 90 seconds. That's 27.5 MW of power per square inch of
cross sectional area that has to be added to system to keep it
spinning. Assuming a 1 foot thick tube of steel the entire 2.5 mile
poloidal diameter toroid requires 163.2 GW of mechanical energy over
the entire toroid. One watt every 52.6 ft of toroidal length.

How is this mechanical energy added to the seamless tube? By heating
and cooling the steel shell so that its periodically heated on the
inside and cooled on the outside every 90 seconds.

Inertia keeps it going in the right direction after its set in motion
by fusion rocket action. Without energy being added the system would
slow down and it would take several years for the tube to stop.

Stainless steel expands 17.6 ppm per degree celsius. So, a difference
of 176 millionths of degree fluctuating with phase along the poloidal
direction every 90 seconds changes 3.1 parts per billion (ppb). With
a heat capacity of 0.49 Megajoules per metric ton each tonne of steel
requires 359 Joules be added over a 45 second period and then 359
Joules be removed over the next 45 seconds - and then repeated - for
each tonne of steel. This is achieved by applying heat at the point
of greatest contraction and letting the system cool radiatively over
the rest of the cycle.

Only a small portion of the solar energy collected by the zone plates
need be focused on this spot to maintain the poloidal rotation of a
seamless tube.

That way we don't have to make sections and piece them together. We
make a seamless spiral pipe ejected from a free flying mill fed by raw
materials gathered from throughout the asteroid belt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RnIHKzN3vY

Of course using self-replicating machinery, we make machine cell
components that self assemble into the requisite forms swarming
together.

[trigonometry1972@gmail.com |]

Oxygen isn't the problem and Venus too far away for it.
Water for oxygen is closer. Nitrogen might be your bigger problem.

Having said that Guth will be overjoyed you mention Venus, as
he is floating in his balloon in its atmosphere while he operates
remote control heat resistant machines on surface. However,
his wife is wanting to go out to dinner and the nearest McDonalds
is on the "north" pole of Mercury, so he is in for a fuel bill
especially
going home. "Honey it is too hot on the surface for a picnic" he says,
"but the robotic orbiting station might be OK for a brief visit
though it lacks rad shielding."

Trig

[William Mook]

Venus has 4.3x the amount of Nitrogen as Earth. Separating the CO2
into carbon and O2 Venus has 306x the amount of Oxygen as Earth. So,
terraforming Venus with a self-replicating machine system requires
removing 78% of the Nitrogen found there and removing 99.7% of all
Oxygen found there.

The excess is available for use off-Venus development. Enough for
transforming Mars, the Moon, and Mercury with Earth like
Atmospheres.

The ring we're talking about here is 64.2 Earth's in area and requires
64.2x as much oxygen and nitrogen as found in Earth's atmosphere.
There is plenty of oxygen, not enough nitrogen. That must come from
Neptune's moon Triton.

Since oceans do not exist on this Asteroid Belt station - the lakes
and ponds are relatively shallow. So, there is plenty of water on
Saturn's moon Enceladus and Neptune's moon Triton for this biosphere
with 33% coverage - producing over 100x as much land area as is found
on Earth.

Small fusion powered self-replicating rockets are built and sent to
Earth to harvest all manner of living things and they are brought back
to propagate across the interior of the asteroid belt station.

Also, billions of free flying fusion powered homes are constructed and
sent to Earth to pick up and return anyone who wished to this station.

Fusion powered flying home
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62745980/Flying-Home

The alternative?

Death.

Ecoscience and the plan to depopulate Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RPUhf4kEQs

[Brad Guth]

Why go so far when one of the most metallicity worthy asteroids of
terrific value is already orbiting Earth and according to all thing
NASA/Apollo it's extremely doable as is, not to mention that second
moon of Earth, plus there's always the extremely nearby planet Venus.

http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”

[Brad Guth]

On Oct 10, 11:28 am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"

The enormous metallicity of Venus is only 100 LD from us. Passing any
closer and it gets called a NEO.

[Sylvia Else]

On 7/10/2011 10:59 AM, William Mook wrote:
>
> Build a ring toroid with a poloidal radius of 2,000 meters and a
> toroidal radius of Ceres' semi-major axis (414 billion meters). The
> surface area of this ring is 8.07 trillion acres.

And it's unstable. It will require thrusters along its length to keep it
circular and in position.

Sylvia.

[William Mook]

On Oct 23, 8:43 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
> On 7/10/2011 10:59 AM,WilliamMookwrote:

Yes, the dynamic study done for Larry Niven's Ringworld applies here.
Thrusters are not required or recommended, since that would use up
resources very fast over short time frames. Laser stations that hover
above the solar surface at 3.5 million km, that beam energy to laser
light sails that drive starships between stars, are also used to beam
energy to laser light sails attached to the toroid described here.
This has a second benefit, providing substantial power and
illumination within the toroid.

[Brad Guth]

On Oct 6, 4:59 pm, William Mook <mokmedi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why insist upon going so far when one of the most metallicity worthy
asteroids of terrific mass and value is already orbiting Earth, and
according to all things NASA/Apollo it's extremely doable as is, not
to mention going after that 1.3e14 kg second moon of Earth, plus
there's always the extremely nearby planet Venus offering us the
mother-load of metallicity.

Knowingly ignoring the tidal forcing and subsequent global heating
consequences of essentially doing nothing constructive with our highly
unusual and physically dark moon, with its paramagnetic basalt and
multitudes of rare metallicity, as being kept nondisclosure and
otherwise as taboo/forbidden to us isn’t going to keep others such as
China, Russia or even India from proceeding.

My idea of interactively keeping our moon at Earth L1 is technically
doable, perhaps with tethered tugs that can utilize reactive thrusting
via solar powered ions, as well as utilizing their centripetal force
for actively managing the necessary L1 station-keeping. The
relatively small amount of reaction force necessary for the L1 station-
keeping can be entirely solar derived as renewable energy applied into
arrays of ion thrusters, as well as 99.9% of the mass for whatever
volumes of metallicity needed for tethered L1 and L2 LSEs (lunar space
elevators) would likely be derived from the moon itself.

The relocated moon can also be somewhat halo orbited within the Earth
L1, so as to moderate how much shading, and/or a circumference array
of mirrors at the continuous terminator can be utilized to redirect as
much solar energy as necessary, as well as directed towards specific
terrestrial locations. Therefore causing too much shade from the
maximum of 3.25% (not your continually miss-calculated 6.57%) is not
really an insurmountable problem, and only those pesky lunar tides get
reduced by a factor of 16 while otherwise the alignment adds to the
existing solar tide making the global tidal situation worth roughly
50% of what’s currently the case, but also becoming exactly timed for
high noon and midnight (no further tidal variables). However those
16:1 of tidal seismic reductions should be worth cutting our
geodynamic plate tectonic trauma by rough 4:1.

Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature (BEST) project:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/21/berkeley_earth_surface_temperature_study/
It’s well accepted by most every conceivable science that our sun is
getting ever so gradually hotter, and by some qualified accounts
there’s other cosmic variable factors which add to that (not to
mention moon IR), as well as whatever we humans manage to contribute
isn’t exactly cooling the planet off by way of global dimming or
benefiting our global biodiversity. Not doubt our artificial
contributions to global dimming haven’t been insignificant, not to
mention the added water vapor and loss of helium as contributing
factors. So, by offering the 3.25% shade should be at first
considered as a wee bit overkill, although with additional mirrors and/
or specifically directed laser/microwave energy focused upon specific
terrestrial locations of receiving stations should more than offset
whatever excessive shade is otherwise doing to us. At any rate, even
at 3.25% shade the glacial buildup would take centuries if not a
millennium in order to get us back to the era of something prior to
1000 years BP (aka prior to 1012). Try to remember that the ongoing
rate of glacial thawing has been as much or more from the bottom up,
so that’s not a consideration that’s going to drastically change
because, such thick ice is actually a very good insulator.

There’s actually a fair and growing list of positive/constructive
considerations pertaining to having our moon relocated to Earth L1,
that has nothing to do with any moderating of terrestrial
temperatures, or with tidal and tectonic and seismic reduction
issues. The few negative issues can become managed and/or we can
simply adapt ourselves to the gradually cooler and somewhat dryer
climate (with ocean levels gradually dropping and those expected polar
pack-ice or sea-ice areas and glaciers growing instead of losing
mass). However, seasonal snow melts from those mountains surrounded
by us humans and otherwise sustaining the whole zoo of complex
biodiversity of each affected area would no longer have those dried up
streams and rivers beds, and certain types of rain forest should
actually flourish instead of dieing off, as they are now faced with
their most certain demise from the wrath of this warming via nature
plus always from us humans cutting and/or intentionally burning them
down. There’s also going to be a measurable reduction in certain
destructive pests that most of us could probably do a whole lot better
without, especially better if you happen to live and/or work nearby
and otherwise downwind from any volcanic issues.

The notion of geoengineering the atmosphere in order to artificially
force-regulate our GW plus taming whatever AGW and thereby managing to
artificially force some degree of terrestrial cooling, is only going
to transfer or divert that solar energy to some other part of the
global environment, and such an effort is also going to demand a great
deal of our resources in order to deploy and sustain such a
terrestrial limited form of geoengineering as representing our best
solution that can only put-off or postpone the inevitable demise of
our planet that desperately needs access to off-world resources. So
I’m not against such applied technology efforts unless the necessary
time and cost is so extensive that we can no longer afford to be
housed, clothed and reasonably fed, because this supposedly secret
method still doesn’t get us anywhere near any sort of private or
commercial utilization of our moon, nor correcting or compensating for
several other important considerations.

In other words, our physically dark and paramagnetic basalt moon is
simply too damn big, too freaking massive and otherwise orbiting too
nearby for our own good. So, relocating it to our L1 would be a win-
win-win for the vast majority of us and most other biodiversity. Of
course this relocation process could easily take a century to pull
off.

I have no doubt we haven’t been in charge of our best talents and
resources by way of electing the best we can muster for leading and
governing us, because for the past decade I’ve only seen an
accelerated level of dysfunctional national policy turn inward and
even turn hard on some of its own kind, making investigative research
even more unlikely to interfere with and much less able to revise the
mainstream status-quo which clearly doesn’t want us outsiders messing
around with our moon or the planet Venus.

[Sylvia Else]

It's not so obvious that that's sufficient. Can you show that the
structure can be maintained in position and shape using only outward
(away from the sun) forces? Might it not be necessary to be able to
impart in inward forces?

Outward forces would be sufficient in the case of a rigid structure,
but your toroid would be nothing like rigid.

Sylvia.

[William Mook]

We will make use of the asteroid belt at the same time we develop the
inner planets of the solar system. This will happen before we make
use of the outer planets, the Sun itself. This will happen before we
make use of nearby Stars and the Black Hole at the Center of our
Galaxy (Sag A*)

[Brad Guth]

Good one. Now do something for us that truly matters and happens
within our generation.

[William Mook]

On Oct 23, 4:44 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/10/2011 12:48 AM,WilliamMookwrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 23, 8:43 am, Sylvia Else<syl...@not.here.invalid>  wrote:
> >> On 7/10/2011 10:59 AM,WilliamMookwrote:
>
> >>> Build a ring toroid with a poloidal radius of 2,000 meters and a
> >>> toroidal radius of Ceres' semi-major axis (414 billion meters).  The
> >>> surface area of this ring is 8.07 trillion acres.
>
> >> And it's unstable. It will require thrusters along its length to keep it
> >> circular and in position.
>
> >> Sylvia.
>
> > Yes, the dynamic study done for Larry Niven's Ringworld applies here.
> > Thrusters are not required or recommended, since that would use up
> > resources very fast over short time frames.  Laser stations that hover
> > above the solar surface at 3.5 million km, that beam energy to laser
> > light sails that drive starships between stars, are also used to beam
> > energy to laser light sails attached to the toroid described here.
>
> It's not so obvious that that's sufficient.

Why not? Have you carried out the calculations?

> Can you show that the
> structure can be maintained in position and shape using only outward
> (away from the sun) forces?

Yes.

> Might it not be necessary to be able to
> impart in inward forces?

That depends on the details. When you look at the dynamics of the
ring you can see there are several stable modes. One can for example,
increase or decrease the orbital speed of the ring as well as the
length of the ring - pulling it toward the Sun, and pushing it away
generally depending.

Also, what makes you think inward forces cannot be applied with
outward directed light? Obviously you've never tacked into the wind
with a sail boat! lol. Try it some time.

> Outward forces would be sufficient in the case of a rigid structure,
> but your toroid would be nothing like rigid.

Well, an accurate description would be is that its rigid up to a point
and that the forces of gravity and inertia vastly outweigh those
forces. A clear understanding of the reality of the situation gives a
clear indication of how the control system works for a stable system.

> Sylvia.

[Sylvia Else]

When tacking, there are two forces applied to a boat - that from the
wind and that from the water. In space, there is no equivalent to the
latter.

Getting an inward force component by reflecting light would imply that
the light has an increased outward component of its momentum. Light
heading outwards, essentially from the direction of the sun, already has
its maximum possible outward momentum component.

Sylvia.

[Doug Freyburger]

Sylvia Else wrote:
> William Mook wrote:
>
>> Build a ring toroid with a poloidal radius of 2,000 meters and a
>> toroidal radius of Ceres' semi-major axis (414 billion meters). The
>> surface area of this ring is 8.07 trillion acres.

One of the good things about having Mook in my kill file is I only get
the parts that are quoted.

> And it's unstable. It will require thrusters along its length to keep it
> circular and in position.

As to position as long as it is not supposed to be near Ceres it does
not need to be stable there. It only needs enough manuevering to avoid
collisions with asteriods. A good radar and tracking computer would be
needed to track as many rocks as possible but the radar is needed for
spacecraft traffic control anyways.

Going off circle is a problem for any ring. One this small could be
bound with cables like a bridge. It would be fun to design a trestle
web to do that. There needs to be a spaceport at the center hub anyways.

[William Mook]

On Oct 23, 7:52 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/10/2011 12:09 PM,WilliamMookwrote:

Yes there is. There's inertia and gravity in addition to light
pressure.

>
> Getting an inward force component by reflecting light would imply that
> the light has an increased outward component of its momentum. Light
> heading outwards, essentially from the direction of the sun, already has
> its maximum possible outward momentum component.

Light can change direction by passing through a lens. This creates an
analogue to lift on a wing or a sail. So, light passing above the
ring deflected downward at a slight angle and light passing below the
ring deflected upward at a slight angle - can be arranged to produce
inward pressure.


>
> Sylvia.

[William Mook]

On Oct 24, 9:38 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> >WilliamMookwrote:

>
> >> Build a ring toroid with a poloidal radius of 2,000 meters and a
> >> toroidal radius of Ceres' semi-major axis (414 billion meters).  The
> >> surface area of this ring is 8.07 trillion acres.
>

> One of the good things about havingMookin my kill file is I only get

> the parts that are quoted.
>
> > And it's unstable. It will require thrusters along its length to keep it
> > circular and in position.
>
> As to position as long as it is not supposed to be near Ceres it does
> not need to be stable there.  It only needs enough manuevering to avoid
> collisions with asteriods.  A good radar and tracking computer would be
> needed to track as many rocks as possible but the radar is needed for
> spacecraft traffic control anyways.
>
> Going off circle is a problem for any ring.  One this small could be
> bound with cables like a bridge.  It would be fun to design a trestle
> web to do that.  There needs to be a spaceport at the center hub anyways.

You're right about cables, to the tensile strength limits. As far as
the other comments go, Ceres and the other asteroids are no more.
They wer used to make the sun circling ring.

[William Mook]

On Oct 23, 6:56 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just sent another letter to James Kvaal about what Obama can do.

I urged Kvaal and other to watch the same video that 100 million other
Americans have watched;

Money Masters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2zr4y-Ip2I

Modern Money Mechanics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm3DixfL9o0

Live by Fraud Die by Fraud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5jdMDiEeco

and get a clue as to what's going on.

What to do?

(1) End the ability of banks to create currency from nothing (full
reserve banking).
(2) Separate out the toxic debt from the needed debt. Reinstate Glass
Steagal.
(3) Let the toxic debt fail. Nationalize needed assets of losers.
(4) Support the needed debt in commercial and home finance.
(5) Create sovereign currency as needed to meet government obligations
(6) Tax the most productive sections of our economy to keep inflation
in check.
(7) Reign in least productive sections of government to keep spending
in check.

Whom to tax?

In an agrarian economy land is taxed.
In an industrial economy production is taxed
In a retail economy sales and income are taxed.

What does a knowledge based economy tax?

According to Nobel economist James Tobin you tax currency
transactions.

How much a difference would this make?

Well, the USA last year created $14.12 trillion in goods and services.

That same year the USA traded $3.3 quadrillion in stock and commodity
transactions.

A 1% Tobin tax - on Wall Street Sales - would raise $33 TRILLION per
year! This would allow the elimination of all other taxes, pay off
the national debt in one stroke, and provide a $16 trillion Federal
Reserve fund.

To get the economy restarted call the Fed and tell Ben Bernake to make
tranches of $1 trillion available to qualified borrowers using US
sovereign currency available at 0% interest with 100 year terms of
repayment- to replace interest bearing debt with zero interest debt.
This doesn't increase the money supply since it displaces debt. It
does increase the money kept in the US economy by eliminating interest
payments to the Central Bank. Replacing the $150 trillion of interest
bearing debt held by the the nation's States, Cities, Counties -
costing $7.1 trillion per year - with debt that reduces payments to
$1.5 trillion per year. Additional $50 trillion is made available
under similar terms to qualified businesses and industry.

Within three years we would achieve full employment.

Institute a periodic 0.8% Tobin tax - any quarter the Federal Reserve
fund falls below the annual GDP. Each quarter raises $6.6 trillion.
Eliminate all other taxes.

Whom to cut?

(1) Cut military spending by 7/10ths.
(2) Reduce IRS and merge with SEC
(3) End intrusive and non productive agencies
(a) Homeland Security
(b) EPA
(c) Energy
(d) Education
(e) HUD
(f) Commerce
(g) Interior

[Brad Guth]

I'm not entirely sold on the complexity of taxing that has special
interest exceptions and conditional attributes that usually favor the
wealthy or those just sneaky or corrupt enough to fudge and get away
with it, especially when flat taxing and simple tax discount cards for
those qualified as living or operating below the lower middle class
(earning less than minimum wage) can more than do the trick.

Cutting State and Federal overhead is an absolute given. I've
suggested a 10% across the board cut per year for each of ten years,
because that should do that trick. If they start running too low on
funds to function, they can either beg the public to make some kind of
conditional allowances, or they get to suck it up like the rest of us.

Hopefully you'll receive some kind of positive feedback on that
proposal of yours.

[William Mook]

On Oct 24, 10:10 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 24, 7:36 pm,WilliamMook<mokmedi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 23, 6:56 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 23, 6:11 pm,WilliamMook<mokmedi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > We will make use of the asteroid belt at the same time we develop the
> > > > inner planets of the solar system.  This will happen before we make
> > > > use of the outer planets, the Sun itself.  This will happen before we
> > > > make use of nearby Stars and the Black Hole at the Center of our
> > > > Galaxy (Sag A*)
>
> > > Good one.  Now do something for us that truly matters and happens
> > > within our generation.
>
> > >  http://translate.google.com/#
> > >  Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”
>
> > I just sent another letter to James Kvaal about what Obama can do.
>
> > I urged Kvaal and other to watch the same video that 100 million other
> > Americans have watched;
>
> > Money Mastershttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2zr4y-Ip2I
>

> > Modern Money Mechanicshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm3DixfL9o0
>
> > Live by Fraud Die by Fraudhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5jdMDiEeco

I agree. That's why 1% on the 1% makes sense. A 1% sales tax on
stock commodity and other financial transactions on Wall Street is
better than any other solution. Since 1% on the 1% generates $33
trillion in revenues, it lets the 99% off the hook entirely. No taxes
for anyone else or anything else. It does away with record keeping -
unless you're buying and selling stock. Where records are generated
anyway. If you have a high frequency trading algorithm, you'll add 1%
to the 4% you're already playing - something that's easily supported
according to the traders I've spoken with.

>
> Cutting State and Federal overhead is an absolute given.

Getting all government from under the shadow of the phoney derivative
debt that was foisted off to the unsuspecting public, and accounts for
97% of the payments of our government to the banks (who get the tax
money before the government does) - is the first step. Setting up our
financial system to the banks can't get their hands so deeply in our
pockets ever again, is the second step. Taxing Wall Street a 1% Sales
Tax on stock and commodity transactions, to fund on going government
operations is the third step. Finally, reigning in government
spending is the fourth step.

The second step entails Issuing interest free 100 year sovereign
currency to replace the $150 trillion debt our State, Local and County
governments now carry allows our nation to retain over $5 trillion
that is now spent on interest - payable to foreign bank owners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_annual_financial_report

http://cafr1.com/STATES/US-TreasuryReports/BankDerivativesJUNE2010.pdf

> I've
> suggested a 10% across the board cut per year for each of ten years,

Spending isn't the problem. Not taxing the most productive sector of
our economy is the problem. A 1% sales tax on the 1% who own 99% of
the wealth and create 97% of the deposits - and are 97% of the problem
when they make a bad bet - is the answer. Successful collection of
$33 trillion allows us to restore our credit rating, and set the stage
for the other needed changes outlined above.

> because that should do that trick.  

It won't do the trick. There is a lack of capital because the wise
guys on Wall Street spent 97 cents out of every dollar on derivatives
and left none for the rest of the economy. That's not really a
problem, if they're taxed appropriately - which the 1% for the 1%
allows.

> If they start running too low on
> funds to function, they can either beg the public to make some kind of

Listen, I read and listen to all your stuff, Brad, you clearly didn't
watch the Money Masters or Modern Money Mechanics. Both videos
explain in detail that sovereign nations don't need to beg anyone for
money, nor do they need to borrow money. Sovereign nations can print
their own debt free currency and do away with borrowing altogether.
The problem comes with our fractional reserve banking system. This
lets the banks to arbitrarily print money or not print money at their
pleasure. This allows banks to create panics and booms, and
manipulate economic affairs to benefit them at everyone else's
expense. With the repeal of Glass Steagal in 1999 the banks created
derivatives which soaked up all the capital and allowed them to earn
money on the enusing failures that caused - pulling more money out of
the economy. At present there is $233 trillion on the books, of this
$150 trillion is debt owed by our government and 97% of the $233
trillion are derivatives only 3% of that is our actual productive
economy. Separate these things out, claw back around $33 trillion
with a 1% Tobin tax, triage the rest, getting our governments off the
hook for phony bank derivative debt, restoring Glass Steagall to make
sure it doesn't happen again. Making a 0.8% Tobin tax permanent based
on surplus held in a nationalized Federal Reserve, and reigning in
government spending by bringing our troops home and reducing the size
of government and getting rid of intrusive and expensive and non
productive agencies across the board.

> conditional allowances, or they get to suck it up like the rest of us.

A 1% Wall Street Sales tax against stock transactions doesn't have any
conditions or allowances.

> Hopefully you'll receive some kind of positive feedback on that
> proposal of yours.

Hopefully you'll actually read it and understand nothing you've said
here relates to what I've proposed.

[Sylvia Else]

On 25/10/2011 12:54 PM, William Mook wrote:

> Light can change direction by passing through a lens. This creates an
> analogue to lift on a wing or a sail. So, light passing above the
> ring deflected downward at a slight angle and light passing below the
> ring deflected upward at a slight angle - can be arranged to produce
> inward pressure.

In both cases, the outwards momentum of the light is reduced, which
implies an inwards force on the light, and therefore an outwards force
on the toroid.

Sylvia.

[Brad Guth]

Since you're the one and only tax revenue wizard on Earth that knows
how to give all politicians those buckets of blank checks covered by
all of that new loot your method is going to bring in, there's really
no point in anyone else doing a damn thing about cutting the expansion
or cost of government or that of moderating their special interest
investments that are usually not intended to ever breakeven or much
less do any better.

With your 33 trillion coming in each year, everyone gets to spend as
much as they like. Are you sure about this?

It seems rather problematic having 90% of us working for government or
some other related agencies and their contractors getting everything
public funded. How exactly is the remaining 10% going to pay for all
of this 33 trillion per year that your Tobin tax system is planning on
pulling in?

If there's but 50 million of us working full-time and at most another
50 million working part time (usually at minimum wage), is kind of a
problem when there should be half again if not twice that many working
or at least doing something of equal or better than being self
sufficient.

I do like that idea of taxing those trillions of market investment
transactions per year (mostly via thousands of robotrading that run
such trades by the millisecond in order to milk us dry), because most
of those are corrupt and/or borderline treason as is (as kind of what
got us into 9/11).

What is going to stop this horrific volume in robotrading from moving
offshore and subsequently pay damn little if anything?

Otherwise I can go along with your 1% investment trade tax, or even if
it were a $1/robotrade would go a long ways towards resolving our
currently dysfunctional cash flow. Some of those robotrade operations
have been are running at several thousand per minute, whereas picking
up that as a fully taxable transaction that'll cost $1 per buy/sell
trade seems perfectly fair enough.

[Brad Guth]

How about Mokaerospace capturing this one, before it does us harm than
good?

Gravity is the overall big-picture problem for us, because as is more
people seem to die because of encountering or having to deal with
gravity related issues than anything else (Pandora has the right
amount of gravity, as in hardly any). Though locally there's not so
much gravity to fear as there could be actual shards of paramagnetic
basalt from our moon, plus whatever parts from the arriving asteroid
that’ll be attracted by the combined gravity of Earth and our moon.
Unfortunately, Earth will eventually get 2/3 of it (again due to
gravity, just like all them dinosaurs had to pay the ultimate price
due to gravity and that item or several which impacted Earth).

This asteroid (2005 YU55) is arriving too damn fast to get captured,
but it’s certainly capable of demonstrating a method of capture should
it have a glancing lithobraking encounter with our moon.

Perhaps our crack FEMA and NOAA are simply getting themselves prepared
for a seriously nasty big one (somewhat like our DoD and Pentagon were
off playing war games based upon a large commercial aircraft smacking
into tall buildings on the exact same day as such was actually
happening). Does anyone here believe in Karma?

This one is serious Warhol doom and gloom, and especially doom worthy
if this bad-boy trajectory should drift by any micro-fraction of a
degree and whack into our moon.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/comet/20110502/comet20110502.gif
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/10/27/141768886/nasa-makes-final-preparations-for-huge-asteroid-flyby
http://www.universetoday.com/85360/take-a-look-huge-asteroid-to-fly-by-earth-in-november/
Perhaps this November 9th asteroid (2005 YU55) as a 400 meter
diameter worth of unknown mass (being that it’s so spherical could
suggest a rather solid item of mostly nickel iron), passing through at
38 km/sec with its NEO distance of 324,600 km could conceivably manage
to hit our moon at 13 km/sec. Too bad the regular JPL asteroid NEO
simulator can’t muster up any specifics on how close it’ll get to our
physically dark and naked moon. It looks as though it’ll miss the
moon by roughly a little more than 0.5 LD as depicted in this
following link.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/comet/20110502/comet20110502.gif
No doubt we’ll see a little fine tuning with their graphic simulation
as it gets closer. A moon impact would not give us much time if some
of the secondary shards are coming our way at 10+ km/sec, and of
course there’s even a slight chance of a glancing blow whereas this
item mostly survives its lithobraking encounter and subsequently
becomes slowed down but otherwise more attracted to the Earth+moon
gravity well.

As far as anyone knows, this one has never gotten so close, so it’ll
be interesting to see how much revising of its NEO simulation takes
place, which should also tell us its mass.

http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”

[William Mook]

You're right Sylvia. But its the DIRECTION that I'm talking about
here.

Hmm... are you good at drawing pictures Sylvia?

Draw one! haha..

The light coming from the Sun goes out in ALL directions! Not just
aimed *at* the Toroid.

ALL directions.

To make this clear, lets make the angles larger than the would
normally be.

Draw a circle on the left - label it 'sun'

Draw a circle on the right - label it 'toroid'

Draw an arc above and below the toroid at the same distance as the
toroid center.

Draw a line straight out from the center of the sun to the center of
the toroid.

This is what you're talking about.

Draw a line 45 degrees above the first line out to the arc.

Now Draw a line 45 degrees below the first line out to the arc.

Now, where the second intersects the arc draw a line angled at 45
degrees to the line so that if the line were a ray of sunlight it is
reflected down.

Now, where the third line intersect the arc draw a line angled at 45
degrees to the line so that if the line were a ray of sunlight it is
reflected up.

Now, if you tie these two mirrors together with a cable you can hang
the toroid on it. The two mirrors pull out, and the tension between
the two can pull in.

Got it?

[William Mook]

Money is merely a means of exchange. It doesn't represent anything.
At best it accurately reflects value.

The point is, we can tax Wall Street and give Main Street a break. I
would have the government reduce its spending and put the extra in a
true Federal Reserve - and end the bogus privately owned bank we call
the Federal Reserve.

Brad's question relates to our capacity.

Sociologists tell us that in tribal societies the elderly and infants
don't work at all. Men work about 15 hours per week - a few hours
every other day hunting. Women work about 10 hours per week - an hour
or so per day every day.

Today we work in the industrial world 42 hours per week. Those over
65 don't work. Those under 15 don't work. Of this total 4 hours is
used to support the individual worker and his family - including
public works. The balance is sent to the owners of the Central Bank
of his nation and removed from his use.

[Sylvia Else]

Not for the first time, I suspect that you're addressing objections on
the fly, and in the process overlooking further objections.

Although the cable between the mirrors is under tension, and could be
used to pull the toroid inwards, you now have a pair of mirrors that are
experiencing an unbalanced outward force.

You could put the mirrors closer to the sun, and use the unbalanced
force to give them the same orbital period as the toroid (which you'd
want to anyway), but the mirrors have to be massive to give any useful
tension in the cable.

But there's another problem. The whole point of this was to allow inward
forces on the toroid for stability purposes. Now we have a toroid plus
mirrors plus cables (of some elasticity), all of which need to be put
into stable state.

Sylvia.

[William Mook]

I think about what you ask and reply reasonably. How is that a
problem for you? haha - You're the one making stuff up out of whole
cloth and now somehow its my fault! lol. Typical.

Look, you said it was impossible for an outward bound light beam to
provide inward pressure to the toroidal ring. That's nonsense.
Obviously you cannot do vector addition and see how two conical
sections one above and one below the plane of the ring both inside the
radius of the ring can reflect light in such a way as to hold a cable
in tension and that cable used to provide inward force to the ring.
This is not a preferred method especially for a rotating toroid. But
clearly inward forces can be applied.

> Although the cable between the mirrors is under tension, and could be
> used to pull the toroid inwards, you now have a pair of mirrors that are
> experiencing an unbalanced outward force.

No you don't not if they're independently controlled so that they're
pulling equally in opposite directions.

As I asked previously and you ignored, ever been sailing?

You quite correctly pointed out that its the boats interaction with
the water and wind that allows it to tack against the wind. I quite
accurately pointed out that the ring isn't stationary. Its in orbit
around the Sun. So, speeding up or slowing down sections even
slightly is more than sufficient to maintain accurate radial control.
You chose to ignore this and continue with pointless quibble.

Which I suppose is your nature.

Merely changing the angle at which light enters the toroid from the
concentrator lens is sufficient to provide accurate control of the
toroid will within the limits of the materials used.

Factory satellites operating both inside the toroid's orbit and
outside the toroid's orbit also act as shepherd moons.

Recall the studies done on the shepherd moons and the rings of
Saturn. Those shepherd moons provide vanishingly small thrusts as
they pass inside and outside the ring. Yet these tiny pulls applied
periodically are sufficient to provide adequate control.

Same here with the light condensers that focus light non-radially in
ways that push the ring forward slightly or retard it slightly.

>
> You could put the mirrors closer to the sun, and use the unbalanced
> force to give them the same orbital period as the toroid (which you'd
> want to anyway), but the mirrors have to be massive to give any useful
> tension in the cable.

This is not the preferred method. of control. The maglev vehicles
that provide transport along with pumping water and air through the
toroid provide more than sufficient control forces to maintain a
stable orbit. Light forces operating at an angle to the toroid
provide secondary control mechanism.

To understand how controlling orbital speed provides inward force
consider another possibility. Two toroids orbiting in opposite
directions connected by a series of magnetic bearings. Transfering
momentum from one ring to the other provides significant capability to
apply inward force. Braking one ring against the other - which are
presumed to be of equal mass - stops both rings and causes the whole
thing to crash into the Sun. Obviously increasing or decreasing
momentum within the tensile strength of the toroid skin provides
significant control.

Now since the toroid proposed here is made of asteroids moving in a
particular direction around the Sun, the toroid proposed here is
assumed to move in that same direction. Forces are applied by
changing the momentum of a section by all the means mentioned.
Listing all things that have that effect sustainably in the toroid
provide an order of control for a closed loop feedback.

Saturn's rings have been stable for millions of years. There is no
reason a toroid of the type I've described here cannot be around for
at least that long.

>
> But there's another problem. The whole point of this was to allow inward
> forces on the toroid for stability purposes. Now we have a toroid plus
> mirrors plus cables (of some elasticity), all of which need to be put
> into stable state.

No, that was merely a thought experiement to address your nonsensical
notion that outbound light rays cannot produce inward pressure. They
obviously can. I said at the outset that you should really think of
sailing. You almost had it when you inanely objected that the sail
boat interact to both water and air forces to tack against the wind.
I said, and you ignored, and have now all but buried, my reply to that
- namely, like the shepherd moons of Saturn's rings, light arriving at
an angle to the toroiid speed the ring up or slow it down
sufficiently Similarly factory satellites built around rich fragments
of raw material are placed in well defined orbits to maintain the
toroid in its orbit. Finally,material circulating in the transport
lanes is timed when convenient to apply necessary torque to the
ring.

> Sylvia.

There's a friend of mine Keith Lofstrom who has developed a magnetic
launch system using circulating iron masses. I have explored this
technology as a means to transmit and store significant quantities of
solar energy. This flyring concept may also be applied to the toroid
here. Not only for control of its orbit, but also as an energy
storage and retrieval medium - to support transport and make nearly
perfect use of the arriving solar energy.

[Sylvia Else]

On 29/10/2011 4:07 PM, William Mook wrote:
>
> Look, you said it was impossible for an outward bound light beam to
> provide inward pressure to the toroidal ring. That's nonsense.
> Obviously you cannot do vector addition and see how two conical
> sections one above and one below the plane of the ring both inside the
> radius of the ring can reflect light in such a way as to hold a cable
> in tension and that cable used to provide inward force to the ring.
> This is not a preferred method especially for a rotating toroid. But
> clearly inward forces can be applied.
>
>> Although the cable between the mirrors is under tension, and could be
>> used to pull the toroid inwards, you now have a pair of mirrors that are
>> experiencing an unbalanced outward force.
>
> No you don't not if they're independently controlled so that they're
> pulling equally in opposite directions.

If they're pulling equally in opposite directions then there's no net
force perpendicular to the cable, which was the whole point of having them.

>
> As I asked previously and you ignored, ever been sailing?

I'll ignore it again. It's not relevant.

>
> You quite correctly pointed out that its the boats interaction with
> the water and wind that allows it to tack against the wind. I quite
> accurately pointed out that the ring isn't stationary. Its in orbit
> around the Sun. So, speeding up or slowing down sections even
> slightly is more than sufficient to maintain accurate radial control.

You can't speed up and slow down sections if they're attached to each
other.

> You chose to ignore this and continue with pointless quibble.
>
> Which I suppose is your nature.
>
> Merely changing the angle at which light enters the toroid from the
> concentrator lens is sufficient to provide accurate control of the
> toroid will within the limits of the materials used.
>
> Factory satellites operating both inside the toroid's orbit and
> outside the toroid's orbit also act as shepherd moons.
>
> Recall the studies done on the shepherd moons and the rings of
> Saturn. Those shepherd moons provide vanishingly small thrusts as
> they pass inside and outside the ring. Yet these tiny pulls applied
> periodically are sufficient to provide adequate control.

They're good at keeping things away from the divisions, which are quite
narrow, but clearly don't keep things in a fixed place in the rings
themselves, which are not.

>
> Same here with the light condensers that focus light non-radially in
> ways that push the ring forward slightly or retard it slightly.
>
>
>>
>> You could put the mirrors closer to the sun, and use the unbalanced
>> force to give them the same orbital period as the toroid (which you'd
>> want to anyway), but the mirrors have to be massive to give any useful
>> tension in the cable.
>
> This is not the preferred method. of control. The maglev vehicles
> that provide transport along with pumping water and air through the
> toroid provide more than sufficient control forces to maintain a
> stable orbit. Light forces operating at an angle to the toroid
> provide secondary control mechanism.

>
> To understand how controlling orbital speed provides inward force
> consider another possibility. Two toroids orbiting in opposite
> directions connected by a series of magnetic bearings. Transfering
> momentum from one ring to the other provides significant capability to
> apply inward force. Braking one ring against the other - which are
> presumed to be of equal mass - stops both rings and causes the whole
> thing to crash into the Sun. Obviously increasing or decreasing
> momentum within the tensile strength of the toroid skin provides
> significant control.

If the toroids are continuous, then you cannot change the speed of just
parts of it, or at least, not without stretching and compressing them.
But you need to apply different forces to different parts to maintain
stability.

>
> Now since the toroid proposed here is made of asteroids moving in a
> particular direction around the Sun, the toroid proposed here is
> assumed to move in that same direction. Forces are applied by
> changing the momentum of a section by all the means mentioned.
> Listing all things that have that effect sustainably in the toroid
> provide an order of control for a closed loop feedback.
>
> Saturn's rings have been stable for millions of years. There is no
> reason a toroid of the type I've described here cannot be around for
> at least that long.

Saturn's rings are not solid objects. They consist of countless small
objects all independently orbiting Saturn. Bits resulting from collsions
which enter the divisions are cleared from them by the mechanism you
mentioned earlier. The rings are stable only in the sense that the
aggregate of small objects continue to exist.

This has nothing to do with the stability of a toroid.

>
>>
>> But there's another problem. The whole point of this was to allow inward
>> forces on the toroid for stability purposes. Now we have a toroid plus
>> mirrors plus cables (of some elasticity), all of which need to be put
>> into stable state.
>
> No, that was merely a thought experiement to address your nonsensical
> notion that outbound light rays cannot produce inward pressure.

You still haven't offered a credible mechanism.

You can no doubt add some more mirrors, cables and perhaps a few
springs, but no matter what you do, as long as you have only the light
pressure from the sun, you remain stuck with a net outward force on the
combination of mirrors, cables, springs and the section of the toroid
that you're seeking to apply an inward force on.

Rockets?

They
> obviously can. I said at the outset that you should really think of
> sailing. You almost had it when you inanely objected that the sail
> boat interact to both water and air forces to tack against the wind.
> I said, and you ignored, and have now all but buried, my reply to that
> - namely, like the shepherd moons of Saturn's rings, light arriving at
> an angle to the toroiid speed the ring up or slow it down
> sufficiently Similarly factory satellites built around rich fragments
> of raw material are placed in well defined orbits to maintain the
> toroid in its orbit. Finally,material circulating in the transport
> lanes is timed when convenient to apply necessary torque to the
> ring.

That's hand-waving. You've offered nothing to support a claim that the
toroid can be made stable. I've offered nothing to support the contrary
claim, but I think the onus is on you, since it was your proposal.

Sylvia

[William Mook]

On Oct 29, 8:26 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
> On 29/10/2011 4:07 PM,WilliamMookwrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Look, you said it was impossible for an outward bound light beam to
> > provide inward pressure to the toroidal ring.  That's nonsense.
> > Obviously you cannot do vector addition and see how two conical
> > sections one above and one below the plane of the ring both inside the
> > radius of the ring can reflect light in such a way as to hold a cable
> > in tension and that cable used to provide inward force to the ring.
> > This is not a preferred method especially for a rotating toroid.  But
> > clearly inward forces can be applied.
>
> >> Although the cable between the mirrors is under tension, and could be
> >> used to pull the toroid inwards, you now have a pair of mirrors that are
> >> experiencing an unbalanced outward force.
>
> > No you don't not if they're independently controlled so that they're
> > pulling equally in opposite directions.
>
> If they're pulling equally in opposite directions then there's no net
> force perpendicular to the cable, which was the whole point of having them.

Like I said, you seem to be unable to deal with non-co-linear
vectors. My ability to paint an accurate word picture isn't up to
your ability to confuse it. Read a book on the subject and get back
with me.

>
>
> > As I asked previously and you ignored, ever been sailing?
>
> I'll ignore it again. It's not relevant.
>

Idiot response.

Its perfectly relevant.

Let me explain this as if to an idiot.

Take a satellite moving in an orbit. Attach a light sail to it. Set
the sail at 45 degrees so that it reflects light tangent to its motion
- so that it slows down. It will move to a lower orbit using light
that is moving radially outward from the source attracting it.

Now take a large number of satellites at different positions in the
same orbit and coordinate their movement in the same way.

Now link the satellites together.

>
> > You quite correctly pointed out that its the boats interaction with
> > the water and wind that allows it to tack against the wind.  I quite
> > accurately pointed out that the ring isn't stationary.  Its in orbit
> > around the Sun.  So, speeding up or slowing down sections even
> > slightly is more than sufficient to maintain accurate radial control.
>
> You can't speed up and slow down sections if they're attached to each
> other.

Nonsense. You've obviously never worked on a rail road and seen how
welded steel track can bend around the landscape, and even bend to
switch from one track to another.

We're talking in this application not about rail but about plates of
steel wrapped into a tube 4 km in poloidal diameter and the tube bent
into a toroid 827,600,000 km in toroidal diameter with the possibility
of linkages between solid sections.

Now, even if there were no airtight linkages between sections (which I
described in my original post) a solid steel tube of this size could
flex within the proportional limit of the sheet steel it was made of
and provide the opportunity of substantial deviation without
linkages. A 0.05% strain producing 12,500 psi would allow a 200,000
km variation in altitude for example or a variation of + or - 1.2
million km along its length. More than sufficient to operate as I've
described with either light, inertial, or gravity forces.

> > You chose to ignore this and continue with pointless quibble.
>
> > Which I suppose is your nature.
>
> > Merely changing the angle at which light enters the toroid from the
> > concentrator lens is sufficient to provide accurate control of the
> > toroid will within the limits of the materials used.
>
> > Factory satellites operating both inside the toroid's orbit and
> > outside the toroid's orbit also act as shepherd moons.
>
> > Recall the studies done on the shepherd moons and the rings of
> > Saturn.  Those shepherd moons provide vanishingly small thrusts as
> > they pass inside and outside the ring.  Yet these tiny pulls applied
> > periodically are sufficient to provide adequate control.
>
> They're good at keeping things away from the divisions, which are quite
> narrow, but clearly don't keep things in a fixed place in the rings
> themselves, which are not.

How far do you imagine the rings move over time?


Sylvia, might I suggest that you actually read up on a thing before
commenting about it?

Specifically look at a picture of the Uranian rings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uranian_rings_PIA01977_modest.jpg

Looks like shepherds are good at localizing rings - as well as gaps!
lol.

Richard A. Kerr, when he worked at Pasadena California at JPL, wrote a
classic article that has been cited by many many other papers. It
appeared in 21 Feb 1986 issue of SCIENCE magazine. Its a real
classic. How could someone in the aerospace field NOT know about Kerr
and his findings?

He found shepherd moons and a well ordered set of rings and described
what was going on to keep the rings stable over long periods of time.

This is the science of ring formation that leads directly to the
engineering of star, sun, planet or moon circling toroidal stations.

I suggest you read it, and the text book entries about shepherd moons
and get back to me when you can do the calculations accurately.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Same here with the light condensers that focus light non-radially in
> > ways that push the ring forward slightly or retard it slightly.
>
> >> You could put the mirrors closer to the sun, and use the unbalanced
> >> force to give them the same orbital period as the toroid (which you'd
> >> want to anyway), but the mirrors have to be massive to give any useful
> >> tension in the cable.
>
> > This is not the preferred method. of control.   The maglev vehicles
> > that provide transport along with pumping water and air through the
> > toroid provide more than sufficient control forces to maintain a
> > stable orbit.  Light forces operating at an angle to the toroid
> > provide secondary control mechanism.
>
> > To understand how controlling orbital speed provides inward force
> > consider another possibility.  Two toroids orbiting in opposite
> > directions connected by a series of magnetic bearings.  Transfering
> > momentum from one ring to the other provides significant capability to
> > apply inward force.  Braking one ring against the other - which are
> > presumed to be of equal mass - stops both rings and causes the whole
> > thing to crash into the Sun.  Obviously increasing or decreasing
> > momentum within the tensile strength of the toroid skin provides
> > significant control.
>
> If the toroids are continuous, then you cannot change the speed of just
> parts of it,

Yes you can since I've already described the ring as built in sections
with linkages between them. Even if this weren't the case the toroid
is perfectly capable of flexing.

> or at least, not without stretching and compressing them.

Now you're getting on to it.

> But you need to apply different forces to different parts to maintain
> stability.

That's right. These forces are entirely predictable and repeat in a
very precise period. Which explains why shepherd moon physics is of
interest.

>
>
> > Now since the toroid proposed here is made of asteroids moving in a
> > particular direction around the Sun, the toroid proposed here is
> > assumed to move in that same direction.  Forces are applied by
> > changing the momentum of a section by all the means mentioned.
> > Listing all things that have that effect sustainably in the toroid
> > provide an order of control for a closed loop feedback.
>
> > Saturn's rings have been stable for millions of years.  There is no
> > reason a toroid of the type I've described here cannot be around for
> > at least that long.
>
> Saturn's rings are not solid objects.

Correct.

> They consist of countless small
> objects all independently orbiting Saturn.

Correct.

> Bits resulting from collsions
> which enter the divisions are cleared from them by the mechanism you
> mentioned earlier.

Fail.

Look at the pictures of the Uranian rings. The moons are clearly
holding the ring particles in a specific orbit. They're not getting
replenished. They're not going away. They're stuck. Kept there by
an inner and outer shepherd moon that periodically applies the right
gravitational forces to keep the particles from drifting away despite
collisions despite the net instability of the ring itself.

>The rings are stable only in the sense that the
> aggregate of small objects continue to exist.

The Uranian rings are stable in the sense that the particles of which
they consist stay in the same orbit over very long periods of time,
despite the classical instability of the system.

> This has nothing to do with the stability of a toroid.

It is entirely analogous to the toroid. Replace the particles in the
ring with a ring of free flying hoops. Without shepherd moons both
the particle ring and the hoop ring disperse in very short order.
With shepherd moons they are stable over long time periods. Now weld
the hoops together to form the toroid. Dynamically you've changed
very little, especially as the gravity and inertia forces easily
overwhelm the tensile strength of the welds.

>
>
> >> But there's another problem. The whole point of this was to allow inward
> >> forces on the toroid for stability purposes. Now we have a toroid plus
> >> mirrors plus cables (of some elasticity), all of which need to be put
> >> into stable state.
>

> > No, that was merely a thought experiment to address your nonsensical

> > notion that outbound light rays cannot produce inward pressure.
>
> You still haven't offered a credible mechanism.

I've offered three.

I am not responsible for your ignorance of orbital mechanics of the
way rings are kept stable over long periods of time.

> You can no doubt add some more mirrors, cables and perhaps a few
> springs, but no matter what you do, as long as you have only the light
> pressure from the sun, you remain stuck with a net outward force on the
> combination of mirrors, cables, springs and the section of the toroid
> that you're seeking to apply an inward force on.

You continue to demonstrate your inability to do vector addition in 3-
space.

> Rockets?

Eject matter which makes them not sustainable over geologic periods.
Try again.

>    They
>
> > obviously can.  I said at the outset that you should really think of
> > sailing.  You almost had it when you inanely objected that the sail
> > boat interact to both water and air forces to tack against the wind.
> > I said, and you ignored, and have now all but buried, my reply to that
> > - namely, like the shepherd moons of Saturn's rings, light arriving at
> > an angle to the toroiid speed the ring up or slow it down
> > sufficiently  Similarly factory satellites built around rich fragments
> > of raw material are placed in well defined orbits to maintain the
> > toroid in its orbit.  Finally,material circulating in the transport
> > lanes is timed when convenient to apply necessary torque to the
> > ring.
>
> That's hand-waving.

That certainly describes your objections. It is not an accurate
description of my work here. Factory satellites and shipyards are
very dense and massive. Those who build the toroid are perfectly
capable of placing rich industrial sources outside the engineered
biosphere in such a way as to maintain the stability of the toroid
over geological time frames.

> You've offered nothing to support a claim that the
> toroid can be made stable.

Wait a minute. You have yet to demonstrate you understand the
instabilities we're talking about. I mean you said 'unstable' and I
said you must have read Larry Niven's Ringworld book. And we went
from there. I assumed you knew what you were talking about. In this
reply you demonstrate that you are clueless about what we're really
talking about, and WHERE Larry got his original notion that a ring
would be unstable.

Haha - go back to your undergraduate physics. Imagine the Earth is a
shell the same mass as the solid Earth, but with a large hollow
inside. What is the gravity inside? The answer is - zero. The mass
pulls equally in all directions.

If you didn't take physics and solve this problem in 3d calculus I
urge you to look it up. It will answer a lot of your objections - or
at least provide a solid logical basis for you to interpret my
replies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_theorem

http://www.khanacademy.org/#linear-algebra

With this in mind, now, look at a Dyson sphere. Same deal. You have
this sphere encircling the Sun, but gravitationally there is nothing
holding the Sun at its center.

Now cut the Dyson sphere down to a ring. Same deal, this is the core
of Gauss' law. The mass on one side of the sun is countered by a mass
on the opposite side.

Now replace a solid ring with a ring of small particles. Similar
situation - some statistical fluctuation dealing with finite
differences instead of differential - but basically the self
gravitation of the ring - tends to make it free to float off
independent of the central body.

Enter shepherd moons. They provide the right forces at the right
time to maintain the particles in the orbit.

> I've offered nothing to support the contrary
> claim, but I think the onus is on you, since it was your proposal.

There is no onus only ignorance and it lies entirely with you.

> Sylvia

Please trouble yourself to learn what you're talking about before
talking about it. It saves lots of embarrassment.

good luck

[Sylvia Else]

On 30/10/2011 6:53 AM, William Mook wrote:

> Wait a minute. You have yet to demonstrate you understand the
> instabilities we're talking about. I mean you said 'unstable' and I
> said you must have read Larry Niven's Ringworld book. And we went
> from there. I assumed you knew what you were talking about. In this
> reply you demonstrate that you are clueless about what we're really
> talking about, and WHERE Larry got his original notion that a ring
> would be unstable.

Larry Niven's ring was essentially rigid, due to its being made from an
improbably strong material, and rotating about its star at high speed.
Its instability related only to the fact that if its centre of gravity
moved away from the centre of the star, there would be a force pushing
it even further away.

You have no such material such as used for Ringworld, nor the means to
accelerate it so that it's rotating at high speed about the sun. You're
pretty much constrained to retain the angular momentum and total energy
of the source materials.

Your toroid will have characteristics similar to a piece of copper wire
1 mm thick, set into an orbit of radius 100,000km.

Clearly it's not going to remain circular of its own accord, and given
the way gravity behaves, it seems highly likely that it will be
unstable. The question then was whether it can be made stable using just
outward forces, or if not, whether there is a way of obtaining inward
forces that don't require reaction mass.

All the rest is just a diversion tactic on your part.

Sylvia.

[Brad Guth]

Unless you have a plan of overthrowing the US government and running
our new and improved SEC along with our republic owned Federal Reserve
(instead of allowing the private Federal Reserve to do as they
please), we're kind of stuck within the current system.

Personal productivity is problematic, although our K12 education needs
to get fixed before enough middle class smarts can do much better.

For the moment the upper most 0.1% are in charge of the lower 99.9%,
so it's nearly game-over. Actually it has been the upper most 0.0001%
that get to call the really important shots, regardless of who we
elect.

Our national utility infrastructure of power, water, sewer, waste
disposals and you name it, has clearly gotten substandard, inefficient
and essentially dysfunctional in more ways than most of us can count.

You need to publish that Mook version of revised history, plus start
leading us by example of your better expertise and technology that'll
advance humanity before it's too late. Is it still too late? (perhaps
for you and me, it is)

[William Mook]

On Oct 29, 7:20 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/10/2011 6:53 AM, William Mook wrote:
>
> > Wait a minute.  You have yet to demonstrate you understand the
> > instabilities we're talking about.  I mean you said 'unstable' and I
> > said you must have read Larry Niven's Ringworld book.  And we went
> > from there.  I assumed you knew what you were talking about.  In this
> > reply you demonstrate that you are clueless about what we're really
> > talking about, and WHERE Larry got his original notion that a ring
> > would be unstable.
>
> Larry Niven's ring was essentially rigid, due to its being made from an
> improbably strong material,

Correct.

> and rotating about its star at high speed.

The rate of rotation Larry Niven supposed in his ring word has nothing
to do with the shell theorem which is the basic reason complete
rotationally symmetric figures like Larry's Ringworld and my toroid
are unstable.

The shepherd moons are in stable orbits, and as they pass by the rings
transfer restoring forces to such rings - which operates no matter
what kind of ring they are.

> Its instability related only to the fact that if its centre of gravity
> moved away from the centre of the star, there would be a force pushing
> it even further away.

Its a consequence of the shell theorem which I cited earlier zeroing
out the influence of the central star.

>
> You have no such material such as used for Ringworld,

While required for Larry Niven's construction its not required for
mine. Steel works just fine.

> nor the means to
> accelerate it so that it's rotating at high speed about the sun.

That's right. I'm proposing something totally different. Yet because
it too is a complete figure of rotation, it suffers from the same
shortcomings due to the limitations of the shell theorem I quoted
earlier.

> You're
> pretty much constrained to retain the angular momentum and total energy
> of the source materials.

My toroid is in orbit around the sun and the interior of the toroid
feels an outward force due to poloidal rotation as I described in my
first post.

> Your toroid will have characteristics similar to a piece of copper wire
> 1 mm thick, set into an orbit of radius 100,000km.

No, you're wrong. I'm forming 4 km diameter tube forming a toroid
with 400,000,000 km radius. That's 1 to 100 million. So, 1 meter
to 100,000 km - and its a tube not a wire - and its steel not copper.

> Clearly it's not going to remain circular of its own accord,

That's right.

> and given
> the way gravity behaves, it seems highly likely that it will be
> unstable.

Now you're handwaving - if you actually understood the shell theorem
and what you were talking about you would see that such a tube can
easily be maintained in the orbit described by any one of the three
forces I've described previously.

> The question then was whether it can be made stable using just
> outward forces, or if not, whether there is a way of obtaining inward
> forces that don't require reaction mass.

Why is it that you think repeating the same errors you did before
makes them correct this time?

> All the rest is just a diversion tactic on your part.

You're the one repeating the same things you said a week ago as if
you're saying something new while totally ignoring the references I
gave you detailing chapter and verse of how the toroid is maintained
in its orbit.

The toroid I described works and it is built with the iron and carbon
found in the asteroid belt today. Once completed the toroid provides
hundreds of time the area of the entire Earth as habitation for
humanity over geologic periods. Since it is very likely to find at
least this much material around other stars, a toroid like this is
something we would likely build around nearly all other stars as we
expand across the cosmos radically increasing the living space of
human beings.

That's why its an exciting development.



> Sylvia.

[Sylvia Else]

> That's why its an exciting development.\

It will never happen, though, because the economics make no sense.
Expanding the human race beyond Earth is science fiction. It serves no
purpose that people would be willing to pay for.

Sylvia.

[William Mook]

Sylvia ignored my original post where I describe how the Asteroid belt
would be transformed in very short time periods into the toroid
described here. Namely, self-replicating machine cells are sent at 1
gee to the five largest asteroids by miniature inertial confinement
fusion rockets burning lithium-6 deuteride each pulse unit detonated
by MEMS based Voitenko compressors. Once the system arrives at each
world, machine cells reproduce using the asteroids as raw materials.
These then self-assemble into systems that result in the toroid and
all support systems described. Fusion powered free flying homes are
made for every man woman and child on Earth, which then return to
Earth to collect those willing to leave Earth, or support those who
wish to stay.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62738939/Flying-Home

This is a practical program of development that is far more reasonable
than the limits to growth nightmare which is in the process of killing
off 95% of humanity.

Yes it will.

> though, because the economics make no sense.

Nonsense. The economics make perfect sense. All that's required is
the development of an aneutronic fusion rocket along with self-
replicating machine cells.

> Expanding the human race beyond Earth is science fiction.

No it isn't. With low-cost aneutronic fusion, propellants cost
pennies a ton and a single ton of propellant lifts between 10 tons and
205 tons across the solar system.

> It serves no
> purpose that people would be willing to pay for.

Nonsense. The toroid I describe made by self-replicating machine
systems from the five major asteroids encompasses an area of 8.4
trillion acres of habitable land. This is enough land to provide over
1,000 acres for every man woman and child today. The standard of
living possible with this toroid cannot be achieved by this many
people on Earth today. The only practical alternative is to allow a
die off of 90% of humanity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgrdAUFFMrA

This die off if allowed to occur, will not leave 10% unaffected. the
90% will bring the balance down, and all humans run the risk of die
off.

This is the choice before us.

Develop our frontier, or die.

This has always been our choice.

Humans are the only species to extend their range through technical
means. This has caused humans who are adapted to survive in the same
range as low-land apes, to have spread over the entire surface of the
Earth in the last million years.

To achieve this humans used language, fire and shelter.

It will be the reason humans will spread over the entire galaxy in the
next million years.

To achieve this humans will use computers, fusion and space habitats.

The process is simple. Humans at any point in time have a specific
range. Technical development allows them to expand that range into
new areas previously out of bounds. This new area is called 'the
frontier'. In the frontier there are no competitors with which to
fight. This increases the value of cooperation over the value of
competition. So, over time cooperative instincts come to dominate
over strictly competitive instincts - and humane cultures arise
devoted to science and understanding nature.

From time to time cultures forget what it means to be human. At those
times humanity suffers a dramatic reversal as those cultures fail and
a new culture arises to take up again the Ascent of Man - as Jacob
Bronowski famously reported in his series on this subject.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-63398489326170915

Now, Bronowski was a good friend with Leo Szilard. Szilard invented
the chain reaction and the nuclear reactor as well as the cyclotron.

In a letter to Bronowski in 1932 Szilard discussing the first world
war that had passed and the possibility of a new world war said, and
his interest in atomic physics. Szilard was a favorite of Einstein's
students. He went into business with Einstein building an improved
refrigerator. He composed the letter Einstein signed and Szilard sent
to Roosevelt, resulting in the Manhattan Project. Szilard recruited
the scientists to work on this project.

http://www.3rd1000.com/nuclear/120246.gif

Now, Szilard said, in his 1932 letter to Bronowski, that for mankind
to save itself we must leave the planet and that was the reason he
studied nuclear physics. The goal of his studies was to create a
means that allowed mankind to not only leave the Earth, but to leave
the Solar System and spread generally throughout the cosmos.

It has been reported, wrongly, that the majority of scientists
involved in the Manhattan Project didn't think the atom bomb would
work. This wasn't the case at all. What the majority of scientists
approached by Szilard to work on the bomb project thought, was that
humanity wouldn't survive the creation of the bomb, and refused to
work on it. Szilard then shared with them his vision of the future of
humanity - the same one he shared with Bronowski in 1932 - and said we
would also build spaceships that would carry us to the stars - and
this would save us. They believed him, and were excited by the
vision, and joined him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29

The failure of our government to act on this implied promise has
doomed us. This caused Szilard to abandon the US for Switzerland
following the Cuban Missile crisis - and his mysterious death shortly
thereafter. Freeman Dyson also wrote an article in Science talking
about the death of this project in 1965.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/149/3680/141.extract

Now, in 1965 Voitenko showed that it was possible to modify a chemical
charge from the purpose of piercing armor to the purpose of
compressing aneutronic materials to achieve fusion.

Lithium-6 deuteride produces alpha particles moving at 33,000 km/sec
which are easily controlled.

This knowledge was promptly classified.

Yet it makes Szilard's vision a reality.

Because it makes rockets (and reactors) of extreme simplicity and
safety possible.

Now, about 5x as many deuterium atoms exist in creation as silicon
atoms, about 1 in 6,000 hydrogen atoms.

And, about 1 lithium-6 atom exists for every 1.65 million deuterium
atoms - about 1 lithium-6 atom for every 330,000 silicon atoms.

Using advanced separation techniques, rare metals can be removed
efficiently from the oceans

http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/scaling-up-uranium-from-seawater.html

including lithium.

2.5% of all lithium is lithium 6. 97.5% is lithium-7.

So, 5.75 billion tons of lithium-6 may be extracted in this way from
the oceans 230 billion tons of lithium.

Deuterium may also be extracted from sea-water. Since deuterium is so
much more abundant, it is the lithium-6 that dominates the cost.

The cost of Lithium-6 is $100 per kilogram at present energy costs -
$0.10 per kWh ($0.03/MJ).

Energy costs dominate this price. When energy costs are lower, prices
of raw materials are lower and their abundance is higher.

Each kilogram of lithium-deuteride releases 554 million MJ - which
represents a radical reduction in energy cost - to the Lewis Strauss
'too cheap to meter' level as total energy costs drop from $4 trillion
today to $100 million.

Lower energy costs reduces the cost of extracting lithium, which
further reduces fuel costs.

These lower costs reduce energy costs further - making fuel less
expensive and energy becomes abundant to any level at virtually no
cost.

Each year the world presently uses 47.3 trillion MJ of energy. This
is supplied by 855 tonnes of lithium-6 deuteride per year.
Terrestrial sources would last millions of years. Extraterrestrial
sources, even longer.

It takes a propellant fraction of 7.6% to travel from Earth to the
asteroid belt at one gee using lithium deuteride. So, each ton of
propellant lifts 12.2 tons of payload and structure. With 18%
structure - this is 10.0 tons of payload for each ton of lithium
deuteride.

Lower energy transfer at 132 km/sec - would take only a few weeks -
and allow each ton of propellant to carry 205 tons of payload.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60934836/Vesta-2

[Brad Guth]

Using asteroids to save humanity sounds super terrific, even if 99% of
us get to prematurely starve to death in the process, or we could just
much easier hollow out the moon and/or start exploiting the extremely
nearby planet Venus.

Under that unusually thick and fused paramagnetic basalt of our
physically dark moon is lots of interior room (at least 1.5e19 m3) for
everything, and then some. Supposedly that moon still has a toasty
core of iron, and there's certainly no good reason to think there's
any shortage of thorium and uranium. Venus is of course a geothermal
powerhouse as is, as well as offering a terrific cache of metallicity
as is.

What's not to like when you have such renewable energy and essentially
unlimited metallicity?

Of course or mainstream media infomercials of mostly faith-based and
NASA hype that's K12 indoctrinated into us can be frustrating and
otherwise intimidating as all get out.

Once sufficiently hollowed out, the interior of our moon would offer
zero gravity, other than the slight tidal pull of mostly Earth and
always a little reminder from the sun.

Of course this could make our moon worth a lot if not a thousand more
than my previous estimate of $1e21, and our hollowed out moon could
still be relocated to Earth L1 for the terrestrial benefit of
providing that little spot of shade..

[William Mook]

On Oct 30, 9:53 am, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Brad,

Those who enrich themselves through scarcity maintain an artificial
scarcity. To hide their robbery from others they maintain plausible
fictions about what's happening. This can involve a specious enemy,
or an implacable natural force, or an unfortunate situation or
history, or some combination mixed into a pseudo religious pap that is
easily swallowed by most.

Today the buzz words are environment, overpopulation, and the religion
is sustainability.

To see how artificial scarcity works just look at the history of Cecil
Rhodes and DeBeers. Diamonds are semi-precious. But, they are
localized in well defined regions. So, Rhodes convinced Queen
Victoria to give him sole control over a large area of land where
diamonds were found. Rhodes then restricted the production of
diamonds and a semi-precious stone became precious making Rhodes and
the royal family exceedingly rich in the process.

Now Rhodes gained control of the land, and forbade his workers from
growing food. He wanted to recoup some of his costs and expand
control by selling them food. This caused a war as non-workers died
off. This was considered a positive development. Rhodes was able to
carry out his genocidal plan by merely buying up all the food in
Rhodesia, destroying or exporting the bulk of it, and selling what was
left at inflated prices. Again, creating artificial scarcity in food,
to increase profits even while reducing the amount of food in the
market. How much will you pay for food if you're hungry? If the
demand curve has the right shape, you can always make more money by
imposing artificial scarcity than by expanding production. This is
one of the main failure modes of finance capital. News of massive
starvation in Rhodesia following Victoria's land grant was explained
in the British Press as the inability of savages to adapt to modern
life. To those who asked why they had no difficulties before the land
grant replies ranged from, you are against the Crown, to over
population, to complex stories like - British generosity led to over
breeding of savage races which now have to be weeded out - to before
the light of British honest shone on these savage peoples no one
really knew the depravity they lived with day to day - it is only
British sensibility that makes the life of the savage news, only
trouble makers would try to put the nature of the savage and the
outcome of British help down to some sort of problem caused by
Britain. haha - people actually believed this guff.

Same thing happened with Enron in the 1990s. They gained control of
production of electricity and was able to place bets against the
future production of electricity in the futures markets. Enron
quickly realized they could place huge bets against the production of
electricity, shut down power plants creating artificial scarcity, and
reap huge benefits as prices skyrocketed. How much would you pay for
electricity when you're sitting in the dark?

In response to the inevitable political turmoil - as in the case of
Rhodesia - a whole host of bogus half truths were spun out with
perfectly straight faces to hide the robbery. It was only when Enron
collapsed in corruption that the truth came out.

And the story continues - over the past several decades increasing
environmental regulations in California have given huge control of
environmental groups over the resources of the State. As a result,
major infrastructure has been undone. The shutting off of water from
major land areas as being 'unsustainable' - leading to massive
destruction of food and loss of income. Of course, those who back
such efforts also play in the food futures market and reap HUGE and
IMMEDIATE rewards by such efforts, while city, county and state
legislators reap massive kick backs bribes and profits from their
destruction of their electorate.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574384731898375624.html

Of course the media, bought and paid for by the political and finance
powers blather on repeating the semi-religious line about
sustainability and overpopulation, over consumption and past
excesses. Meanwhile, if someone should say this or that person
should be shot for killing the State - they're classified a domestic
terrorist and hauled off to be water-boarded. Not buying the party
line about the environment makes you a denier and subject to re-
education, loss of credit and of work.

So proud to be an American where at least I think I'm free.

I'm in New Zealand now - haha - waiting for sanity to return to the
land that I love.

The point is Brad, look at what Gaddafi was doing.

Description
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Manmade_River

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-cDezY3cTY

He spent more money on this than America spent on going to the moon.
As a result, Libya was the richest nation in Africa until NATO enacted
its no fly zone.


He was loved by his people... despite what your media tells you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4XvhlrL1sQ

It was the threat of the good example - to everyone in Europe and
America - that threatened the stability of the financial system of the
West - a system of exploitation and control through artificial
scarcity.

But he had a larger vision for Africa and the world...

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/graphics/maps/africa_rail_and_waterways.jpg

Feeding 21 billion people with food that cost $0.48 to $0.20 per
kilo!!! Transported by high speed rail from Africa to any point on
Earth in a day.

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/graphics/maps/landbridge_maps/Worldrail.jpg

He would have paid for this operation by taking over the corrupt
banking and finance system of the West.

Watch 8:30 to 11:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsMfWsGVL_0

and pay for the projects outlined above using the honest management,
political and business skill sets he organized in Libya over the past
30 years to expand across the world in the next 20 years bringing
peace and prosperity to everyone.

This couldn't be allowed to happen.

What makes you think Brad, that anyone else wouldn't be demonized
marginalized and killed who challenged the robbery theft and
corruption of those in charge today?

haha - you still believe that America is free and that the press is
free and that markets are free - lol.

Wake up you mind controlled twerp! lol.

Predictive Programming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlr0qf0eTHU

Never Watch the Television
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmBymKXgrV4

Alex Constantine - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JzTnFS8QLY

Alex Constantine - Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8knCZE0Fe-I

Alex Constantine - Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PdfrlfESw4

Alex Constantine - Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzuusIfXgg

WAKE UP!

[Brad Guth]

> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020473180457438473189837...

>
> Of course the media, bought and paid for by the political and finance
> powers blather on repeating the semi-religious line about
> sustainability and overpopulation, over consumption and past
> excesses. Meanwhile, if someone should say this or that person
> should be shot for killing the State - they're classified a domestic
> terrorist and hauled off to be water-boarded. Not buying the party
> line about the environment makes you a denier and subject to re-
> education, loss of credit and of work.
>
> So proud to be an American where at least I think I'm free.
>
> I'm in New Zealand now - haha - waiting for sanity to return to the
> land that I love.
>
> The point is Brad, look at what Gaddafi was doing.
>
> Description http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Manmade_River
>
> Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-cDezY3cTY
>
> He spent more money on this than America spent on going to the moon.
> As a result, Libya was the richest nation in Africa until NATO enacted
> its no fly zone.
>
> He was loved by his people... despite what your media tells you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4XvhlrL1sQ
>
> It was the threat of the good example - to everyone in Europe and
> America - that threatened the stability of the financial system of the
> West - a system of exploitation and control through artificial
> scarcity.
>
> But he had a larger vision for Africa and the world...
>

> http://www.schillerinstitute.org/graphics/maps/africa_rail_and_waterw...

>
> Feeding 21 billion people with food that cost $0.48 to $0.20 per
> kilo!!! Transported by high speed rail from Africa to any point on
> Earth in a day.
>

> http://www.schillerinstitute.org/graphics/maps/landbridge_maps/Worldr...

>
> He would have paid for this operation by taking over the corrupt
> banking and finance system of the West.
>
> Watch 8:30 to 11:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsMfWsGVL_0
>
> and pay for the projects outlined above using the honest management,
> political and business skill sets he organized in Libya over the past
> 30 years to expand across the world in the next 20 years bringing
> peace and prosperity to everyone.
>
> This couldn't be allowed to happen.
>
> What makes you think Brad, that anyone else wouldn't be demonized
> marginalized and killed who challenged the robbery theft and
> corruption of those in charge today?
>
> haha - you still believe that America is free and that the press is
> free and that markets are free - lol.
>
> Wake up you mind controlled twerp! lol.
>
> Predictive Programming http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlr0qf0eTHU
>
> Never Watch the Television http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmBymKXgrV4
>
> Alex Constantine - Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JzTnFS8QLY
>
> Alex Constantine - Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8knCZE0Fe-I
>
> Alex Constantine - Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PdfrlfESw4
>
> Alex Constantine - Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzuusIfXgg
>
> WAKE UP!

Unlike most here in Usenet/newsgroups, I have been awake, and my
interpretation of what we're being told to believe doesn't quite fit
the mold of my own deductive interpretations. Some things you seem to
have correct, while others seem oddly bipolar.

I think you have what it takes, but only if you can focus those
talents and supposed first-hand expertise that you keep telling us
about.

There’s no further doubt in my mind that we’ve been systematically
snookered and dumbfounded past the point of no return, and because of
this it’s going to get nasty again and again.

[William Mook]

> > Watch 8:30 to 11:40http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsMfWsGVL_0

>
> > and pay for the projects outlined above using the honest management,
> > political and business skill sets he organized in Libya over the past
> > 30 years to expand across the world in the next 20 years bringing
> > peace and prosperity to everyone.
>
> > This couldn't be allowed to happen.
>
> > What makes you think Brad, that anyone else wouldn't be demonized
> > marginalized and killed who challenged the robbery theft and
> > corruption of those in charge today?
>
> > haha - you still believe that America is free and that the press is
> > free and that markets are free - lol.
>
> > Wake up you mind controlled twerp!  lol.
>
> > Predictive Programminghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlr0qf0eTHU
>

> > Never Watch the Televisionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmBymKXgrV4
>
> > Alex Constantine - Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JzTnFS8QLY
>
> > Alex Constantine - Part 2http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8knCZE0Fe-I
>
> > Alex Constantine - Part 3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PdfrlfESw4
>
> > Alex Constantine - Part 4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzuusIfXgg

>
> > WAKE UP!
>
> Unlike most here in Usenet/newsgroups, I have been awake, and my
> interpretation of what we're being told to believe doesn't quite fit
> the mold of my own deductive interpretations.  Some things you seem to
> have correct, while others seem oddly bipolar.
>
> I think you have what it takes, but only if you can focus those
> talents and supposed first-hand expertise that you keep telling us
> about.
>
> There’s no further doubt in my mind that we’ve been systematically
> snookered and dumbfounded past the point of no return, and because of
> this it’s going to get nasty again and again.
>
>  http://translate.google.com/#
>  Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”

Its nastier than you think.

Candy Jones
http://www.mysteriouspeople.com/Candy_Jones.htm

Alien Abduction
http://www.constitution.org/abus/controll.htm

[Brad Guth]

I think it has been extremely nasty ever since before WW1, and I also
think how unfortunate that others like yourself can't get everything
you need in order to proceed. Do you need a Presidential executive
order, or is the only way out of this mess going to become our demise
and/or WW3 on top of it?

No doubt ETs have been laughing their butts off, at how pathetic and
dysfunctional the human race has become so insensitive to our
environment, as well as greedy, arrogant and least capable of adapting
to any other world or moon. You can't even figure out how to get the
most out of our moon or much less Venus, perhaps because they're each
too nearby and offer too many resources.

I can imagine us eventually coming in contact with a similar
dysfunctional planet that's populated by mostly idiots, and basically
doing the exact same thing as ETs are doing with us, namely toying
with us and otherwise sitting back and laughing at the ongoing
stupidity, ignorance and corruption that's running the show.

Guth Venus is just an ongoing topic that’s focused upon one small area
of a terrific radar obtained imaged portion of the extremely nearby
planet Venus, that which seems to depict a rather fair number of
extremely interesting geology attributes that also seems as though
perfectly active and complex terrain, as well as depicting a fair
number of highly unusual geometrical attributes that have otherwise
never been recorded as having been caused or created by nature of any
known geology and subsequent erosion, nor via those pesky plate
tectonics which the planet Venus has but extremely few of those issues
to contend with.

Here’s a not so little size perspective:
At 275 m, the Cowboys Stadium / Louisiana Superdome (plus part of
its surrounding real estate footprint) would fit within each cup of
that enormous clover shaped reservoir.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys_Stadium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FEMA_-_37671_-_Aerial_of_repaired_Super_Dome_in_New_Orleans,_Louisiana.jpg
We humans have also created our very own enormously artificial
reservoirs by having constructed large dams, although a somewhat
roundish natural formed reservoir like Crater Lake of 8500 meters
diameter is actually a substantial volcano pit which isn’t the least
bit artificial nor has it ever been interpreted from satellite imaging
as artificial, whereas some of those other terrestrial reservoirs as
viewed from orbit would tend to be interpreted as somewhat artificial
because, nature and the usual geology of land and erosion doesn’t
usually place something hugely geometric and/or so unusually
symmetrical in the path of a river or as blocking a canyon/gorge, as
well as for anything bridging or spanning over an enormous canyon or
gorge is likely going to get interpreted as having been artificially
created. But you really need to look for yourself and deductively
interpret before taking sides on this one.

Just for a friendly intellectual game of amusing yourself and for
others being a good investigative sport, this ongoing investigative
effort is simply intended to share and see if anyone else can manage
to deductively interpret anything the least bit unusual within the
following image that doesn’t quite look as though the natural laws of
physics and geology was entirely responsible. (try to remember that
the original image is that of a radar obtained composite of 36
confirming looks or scans per pixel, obtained at a FOV down angle of
43 degrees, so its interpretation can be nearly 3D worthy). If you’re
stumped or dumbfounded, then turn this observationology request over
to a bunch of 5th graders, as a class science project.

Besides perfectly natural reservoiring, what the hell (literally
scorching hot as hell) is that extremely large clover shaped reservoir
doing there? (I mean, it’s really big and kind of obvious, and then
what about that other somewhat smaller one that’s seemingly connected
and clearly containing something fluid, not to mention more than a few
other odd geometric considerations that look as though quite
artificial, almost as though some level of intelligence had created
them).

It’s unlikely such a complex and active planet such as Venus wouldn’t
have its fair share of surface fluids, or at least geothermal boosted/
extruded muds or dense mineral and/or acidic brines to contend with,
as well as hydrocarbons shouldn’t be impossible once we reconsider
what the Saturn moon Titan has to work with.

Even as offering a conservative reservoir interpretation, it seems
rather enormous but otherwise kind of perfectly natural, including
that other somewhat conventional reservoir above it that’s containing
something fluid and seems connected. However, as far as anyone knows,
there’s not one other terrestrial example or that obtained from any
other planet or moon as offering anything nearly as geologically
mountainous terrain and erosion complex plus looking downright
impressive, so what the hell gives?

At this point of my observationology (11+ years of deductive image
interpreting), I’m still favoring that such a large clover shaped
reservoir represents a mostly natural though extremely large
formation, and just because something like this complex reservoir is
truly big doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, and just because the
exact same image resampling process was applied equally to each and
every other available pixel which didn’t manage to convert any of
those other surrounding raw pixels into artificial looking items,
doesn’t mean that the few items it did manage to interpret as
geometrical and as otherwise potentially created as intelligently
symmetrical, are not actually there to behold, because nature isn’t
very good at creating highly symmetrical and/or complex looking
geometries, and especially whenever a logical community like
infrastructure is involved.

Lava channels, Lo Shen Valles, Venus from Magellan Cycle 1
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/html/object_page/mgn_c115s095_1.html
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/mgn_c115s095_1.gif
“Guth Venus”, at 10x resample/enlargement of the area in question:
https://picasaweb.google.com/bradguth/BradGuth#5630418595926178146
https://picasaweb.google.com/bradguth/BradGuth#5629579402364691314
Brad Guth / Blog and my Google document pages:
http://groups.google.com/group/guth-usenet?hl=en
http://bradguth.blogspot.com/
http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddsdxhv_0hrm5bdfj
http://translate.google.com/#auto|#auto|My ongoing research
pertaining to “Guth Venus” and most of the associated replies have
been those intended to defend myself and otherwise to share and inform
with as much observation-ology (deductive image interpreting) and
other science as possible. This may require translations as well as a
little syntext decription when taken out of context. Copy/paste any
Usenet/newsgroup or blog context to this Google translation box.
<http://bradguth.blogspot.com>

[William Mook]

Nothing can be allowed to happen to break the trance and challenge the
artificial scarcity. This attacks the very core of how the ruling
oligarchy get their money and power. That's why the moon hoax theory
is promoted so vigorously.

Ideas are very jealously guarded and planned to a very fine level of
detail.

If everyone said, hey, we went to the moon, what else could we do if
we really wanted to?

It opens our imagination. It lets us think that maybe the scarcities
and fears and shortages and difficulties we have been trained to take
for granted might somehow change and make a better world.

This is dangerous to the ruling oligarchs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMyukpB5OKo

[Brad Guth]

So, why are so many of these oligarchs Jewish, and otherwise why do we
have to keep putting up with them?

The upper most 0.0001% of the word is merely 7000 oligarchs. So what
would happen if we simply did away with these 7000?

Are any of these upper most 7000 actually wizards or otherwise too
smart to fail?

[William Mook]

On Nov 4, 1:20 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 1:21 pm, William Mook <mokmedi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Nothing can be allowed to happen to break the trance and challenge the
> > artificial scarcity.  This attacks the very core of how the ruling
> > oligarchy get their money and power.  That's why the moon hoax theory
> > is promoted so vigorously.
>
> > Ideas are very jealously guarded and planned to a very fine level of
> > detail.
>
> > If everyone said, hey, we went to the moon, what else could we do if
> > we really wanted to?
>
> > It opens our imagination.  It lets us think that maybe the scarcities
> > and fears and shortages and difficulties we have been trained to take
> > for granted might somehow change and make a better world.
>
> > This is dangerous to the ruling oligarchs.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMyukpB5OKo
>
> So, why are so many of these oligarchs Jewish,

They're not. 99.9% of them are Satanists.

> and otherwise why do we
> have to keep putting up with them?

Because they rule secretly and create the false impression others are
at fault.

> The upper most 0.0001% of the word is merely 7000 oligarchs.  So what
> would happen if we simply did away with these 7000?

The 70,000 immediately beneath them would fight to take their place.
Its not a personal failure, its a system combined with a personal
failure.

Ever hear of the Peter Principle?

Everyone rises to the level of their incompetence and stays there.

There are more dimensions to Laurence J Peter's hierarch-iology than
mere competence. Imagine a group of individuals supremely competent.
So much so they routinely advance to the highest levels of any
organization. When competence no longer operates as a selection
criterion, what then operates?

I contend that in a universe where all are equally and supremely
competent, it is will that becomes the selection criterion, and the
willingness to do anything to achieve that will. In this context
then, the selection criterion selects for psychopaths intently focused
on rising through a hierarchy. In fact, I believe there is an
interaction between this process and secret societies and ritual abuse
and the human psyche such that all those in supreme positions MUST be
psychopaths, and very likely view themselves as superior to the common
herd, and in fact likely views themselves as owners of the herd, and
seeks to promote this view among their family loved ones and friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

> Are any of these upper most 7000 actually wizards or otherwise too
> smart to fail?

I imagine you are thinking the top 7,000 are those with $300 million
or more. The ones you know about are not it.

Dollars, all money in the modern age, are fiat. Those who own the
printing presses, both electronic and physical, can have all the money
they want. This gives power over the vast multitude enslaved by
money. It does not give power at the top levels. It is only one of
many selection criterion.

Power is hereditary and passed down by families. In 1400 this was
limited to a fixed number of families. Those in power are as unknown
to the multitudes. Do sheep know who owns title to the wool after
they are sheared? Do cattle know who owns the milk after they are
milked? Do pigs know who owns the bacon after they are sent to the
slaughterhouse? At most they know who the hired hands are, the tenant
farmers, the sheep dogs. The barns they inhabit, the fields they roam
they think are natural, they are not.

JP Morgan was thought to be the richest man in the world. He strode
like a Colosus across America, Asia and Europe. Morgan Bank is still
a powerful influence in world affairs. Yet, when JP Morgan died it
was revealed that he owned only 12% of the assets of the firm. The
balance was owned by a handful of un-named parties overseas.

>
>  http://translate.google.com/#
>  Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”

The answer is simple, defect from the hierarchy by developing a
distributed emergent system that meets everyone's needs. It starts
with a collection of core skill sets;

1) a downloadable app to fairly account for resources consumed and
produced and balance that against human time attention desire and
skill. The accounting systems and market systems purport to do this.
They do not.

http://vimeo.com/29419399

2) a distributed self-replicating machine system,

http://vimeo.com/5202148

3) a distributed self organizing shadow net,and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcEoiQYfMeE


4) free energy.

Overview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nCCHo1fdMA

Calphysics Institute
http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

organized along the presumption of abundance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

[William Mook]

"We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it
in blood as well as in words and money." Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., in
Foreign Affairs (July/August 1995)

THAT quotation and the following - and many others like them - clearly
demonstrate that the words "new world order" are deadly serious and
furthermore, have been in use for decades. They did not originate with
President George Bush in 1990. The "old world order" is one based on
independent nation-states. The "new world order" involves the
elimination of the sovereignty and independence of nation-states and
some form of world government. This means the end of the United States
of America, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights as we now
know them. Most of the new world order proposals involve the
conversion of the United Nations and its agencies to a world
government, complete with a world army, a world parliament, a world
court, global taxation, and numerous other agencies to control every
aspect of human life (education, nutrition, health care, population,
immigration, communications, transportation, commerce, agriculture,
finance, the environment, etc.). The various notions of the "new world
order" differ as to details and scale, but agree on the basic
principle and substance.

----------------------------------------------------

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles
to restore order [referring to the 1991 LA Riot]. Tomorrow they will
be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were
an outside threat from beyond [i.e., an "extraterrestrial" invasion],
whether real or *promulgated* [emphasis mine], that threatened our
very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to
deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the
unknown. When presented with this *scenario*, individual rights will
be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being
granted to them by the World Government." Dr. Henry Kissinger,
Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-
world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the
same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do.
I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope,
generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747
that was shot down by the Soviets

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time
Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended
our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost
forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan
for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity
during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and
prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational
sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely
preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past
centuries." David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission,
in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June,
1991.

"The idea was that those who direct the overall conspiracy could use
the differences in those two so-called ideologies [marxism/fascism/
socialism v. democracy/capitalism] to enable them [the Illuminati] to
divide larger and larger portions of the human race into opposing
camps so that they could be armed and then brainwashed into fighting
and destroying each other." Myron Fagan

"No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a
pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he
will take a LUCIFERIAN Initiation." David Spangler, Director of
Planetary Initiative, United Nations

"In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, shipbuilding,
and powder interest, and their subsidiary organizations, got together
12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the
most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number
of them to control generally the policy of the daily press....They
found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the
greatest papers.

"An agreement was reached; the policy of the papers was bought, to be
paid for by the month; an editor was furnished for each paper to
properly supervise and edit information regarding the questions of
preparedness, militarism, financial policies, and other things of
national and international nature considered vital to the interests of
the purchasers." U.S. Congressman Oscar Callaway, 1917

"The world can therefore seize the opportunity [Persian Gulf crisis]
to fulfill the long-held promise of a New World Order where diverse
nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal
aspirations of mankind." George Herbert Walker Bush

"In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all
states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty
wasn't such a great idea after all." Strobe Talbot, President
Clinton's Deputy Secretary of State, as quoted in Time, July 20th,
l992.

"We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by
conquest or consent." Statement by Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)
member James Warburg to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee on
February 17th, l950

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is
imagined by those who are not behind the scenes." Benjamin Disraeli,
first Prime Minister of England, in a novel he published in 1844
called Coningsby, the New Generation

"The governments of the present day have to deal not merely with other
governments, with emperors, kings and ministers, but also with the
secret societies which have everywhere their unscrupulous agents, and
can at the last moment upset all the governments' plans. " British
Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, 1876

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to
me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the
Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know
that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful,
so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak
above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." Woodrow
Wilson, The New Freedom (1913)

"What is important is to dwell upon the increasing evidence of the
existence of a secret conspiracy, throughout the world, for the
destruction of organized government and the letting loose of evil."
Christian Science Monitor editorial, June 19th, l920

"The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which
like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state and
nation. Like the octopus of real life, it operates under cover of a
self created screen....At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller
Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses
generally referred to as international bankers. The little coterie of
powerful international bankers virtually run the United States
government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control
both political parties." New York City Mayor John F. Hylan, 1922

"From the days of Sparticus, Wieskhopf, Karl Marx, Trotsky, Rosa
Luxemberg, and Emma Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily
growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the
tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every
subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last this band
of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities
of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of
their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous
empire." Winston Churchill, stated to the London Press, in l922.

"We are at present working discreetly with all our might to wrest this
mysterious force called sovereignty out of the clutches of the local
nation states of the world." Professor Arnold Toynbee, in a June l931
speech before the Institute for the Study of International Affairs in
Copenhagen.

"The government of the Western nations, whether monarchical or
republican, had passed into the invisible hands of a plutocracy,
international in power and grasp. It was, I venture to suggest, this
semi-occult power which....pushed the mass of the American people into
the cauldron of World War I." British military historian Major General
J.F.C. Fuller, l941

"For a long time I felt that FDR had developed many thoughts and ideas
that were his own to benefit this country, the United States. But, he
didn't. Most of his thoughts, his political ammunition, as it were,
were carefully manufactured for him in advanced by the Council on
Foreign Relations-One World Money group. Brilliantly, with great
gusto, like a fine piece of artillery, he exploded that prepared
"ammunition" in the middle of an unsuspecting target, the American
people, and thus paid off and returned his internationalist political
support.

"The UN is but a long-range, international banking apparatus clearly
set up for financial and economic profit by a small group of powerful
One-World revolutionaries, hungry for profit and power.

"The depression was the calculated 'shearing' of the public by the
World Money powers, triggered by the planned sudden shortage of supply
of call money in the New York money market....The One World Government
leaders and their ever close bankers have now acquired full control of
the money and credit machinery of the U.S. via the creation of the
privately owned Federal Reserve Bank." Curtis Dall, FDR's son-in-law
as quoted in his book, My Exploited Father-in-Law

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial
element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson." A letter written by FDR to Colonel House,
November 21st, l933

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from
behind the scenes." Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, 1952

"Fifty men have run America, and that's a high figure." Joseph
Kennedy, father of JFK, in the July 26th, l936 issue of The New York
Times.

"Today the path of total dictatorship in the United States can be laid
by strictly legal means, unseen and unheard by the Congress, the
President, or the people. Outwardly we have a Constitutional
government. We have operating within our government and political
system, another body representing another form of government - a
bureaucratic elite." Senator William Jenner, 1954

"The case for government by elites is irrefutable." Senator William
Fulbright, Former chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations
Committee, stated at a 1963 symposium entitled: The Elite and the
Electorate - Is Government by the People Possible?

"The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for
multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by
seizing control of the political government of the United States. The
Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to
seize control and consolidate the four centers of power political,
monetary, intellectual and ecclesiastical. What the Trilateral
Commission intends is to create a worldwide economic power superior to
the political governments of the nationstates involved. As managers
and creators of the system, they will rule the future." U.S. Senator
Barry Goldwater in his l964 book: With No Apologies.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far reaching aim,
nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in
private hands able to dominate the political system of each country
and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be
controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world
acting in concert, by secret agreements, arrived at in frequent
private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was the Bank
for International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank
owned and controlled by the worlds' central banks which were
themselves private corporations. The growth of financial capitalism
made possible a centralization of world economic control and use of
this power for the direct benefit of financiers and the indirect
injury of all other economic groups." Tragedy and Hope: A History of
The World in Our Time (Macmillan Company, 1966,) Professor Carroll
Quigley of Georgetown University, highly esteemed by his former
student, William Jefferson Blythe Clinton.

"The Council on Foreign Relations is "the establishment." Not only
does it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at
the highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it
also announces and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from
below, to justify the high level decisions for converting the U.S.
from a sovereign Constitutional Republic into a servile member state
of a one-world dictatorship." Former Congressman John Rarick 1971

"The directors of the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) make up a
sort of Presidium for that part of the Establishment that guides our
destiny as a nation." The Christian Science Monitor, September 1, l961

"The New World Order will have to be built from the bottom up rather
than from the top down...but in the end run around national
sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than
the old fashioned frontal assault." CFR member Richard Gardner,
writing in the April l974 issue of the CFR's journal, Foreign Affairs.

"The planning of UN can be traced to the 'secret steering committee'
established by Secretary [of State Cordell] Hull in January 1943. All
of the members of this secret committee, with the exception of Hull, a
Tennessee politician, were members of the Council on Foreign
Relations. They saw Hull regularly to plan, select, and guide the
labors of the [State] Department's Advisory Committee. It was, in
effect, the coordinating agency for all the State Department's postwar
planning." Professors Laurence H. Shoup and William Minter, writing in
their study of the CFR, "Imperial Brain Trust: The CFR and United
States Foreign Policy." (Monthly Review Press, 1977).

"The most powerful clique in these (CFR) groups have one objective in
common: they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty and
the national independence of the U.S. They want to end national
boundaries and racial and ethnic loyalties supposedly to increase
business and ensure world peace. What they strive for would inevitably
lead to dictatorship and loss of freedoms by the people. The CFR was
founded for "the purpose of promoting disarmament and submergence of
U.S. sovereignty and national independence into an all-powerful one-
world government." Harpers, July l958

"The old world order changed when this war-storm broke. The old
international order passed away as suddenly, as unexpectedly, and as
completely as if it had been wiped out by a gigantic flood, by a great
tempest, or by a volcanic eruption. The old world order died with the
setting of that day's sun and a new world order is being born while I
speak, with birth-pangs so terrible that it seems almost incredible
that life could come out of such fearful suffering and such
overwhelming sorrow." Nicholas Murray Butler, in an address delivered
before the Union League of Philadelphia, Nov. 27, 1915

"The peace conference has assembled. It will make the most momentous
decisions in history, and upon these decisions will rest the stability
of the new world order and the future peace of the world." M. C.
Alexander, Executive Secretary of the American Association for
International Conciliation, in a subscription letter for the
periodical International Conciliation (1919)

"If there are those who think we are to jump immediately into a new
world order, actuated by complete understanding and brotherly love,
they are doomed to disappointment. If we are ever to approach that
time, it will be after patient and persistent effort of long duration.
The present international situation of mistrust and fear can only be
corrected by a formula of equal status, continuously applied, to every
phase of international contacts, until the cobwebs of the old order
are brushed out of the minds of the people of all lands." Dr. Augustus
O. Thomas, president of the World Federation of Education Associations
(August 1927), quoted in the book International Understanding:
Agencies Educating for a New World (1931)

"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world
social democracy, there may still be very great delays and
disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world
system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and
will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its
promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of
malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people."
H. G. Wells, in his book entitled The New World Order (1939)

"The term Internationalism has been popularized in recent years to
cover an interlocking financial, political, and economic world force
for the purpose of establishing a World Government. Today
Internationalism is heralded from pulpit and platform as a 'League of
Nations' or a 'Federated Union' to which the United States must
surrender a definite part of its National Sovereignty. The World
Government plan is being advocated under such alluring names as the
'New International Order,' 'The New World Order,' 'World Union Now,'
'World Commonwealth of Nations,' 'World Community,' etc. All the terms
have the same objective; however, the line of approach may be
religious or political according to the taste or training of the
individual." Excerpt from A Memorial to be Addressed to the House of
Bishops and the House of Clerical and Lay Deputies of the Protestant
Episcopal Church in General Convention (October 1940)

"In the first public declaration on the Jewish question since the
outbreak of the war, Arthur Greenwood, member without portfolio in the
British War Cabinet, assured the Jews of the United States that when
victory was achieved an effort would be made to found a new world
order based on the ideals of 'justice and peace.'" Excerpt from
article entitled "New World Order Pledged to Jews," in The New York
Times (October 1940)

"If totalitarianism wins this conflict, the world will be ruled by
tyrants, and individuals will be slaves. If democracy wins, the
nations of the earth will be united in a commonwealth of free peoples,
and individuals, wherever found, will be the sovereign units of the
new world order." The Declaration of the Federation of the World,
produced by the Congress on World Federation, adopted by the
Legislatures of North Carolina (1941), New Jersey (1942), Pennsylvania
(1943), and possibly other states.

"New World Order Needed for Peace: State Sovereignty Must Go, Declares
Notre Dame Professor"
Title of article in The Tablet (Brooklyn) (March 1942)

"Undersecretary of State Sumner Welles tonight called for the early
creation of an international organization of anti-Axis nations to
control the world during the period between the armistice at the end
of the present war and the setting up of a new world order on a
permanent basis." Text of article in The Philadelphia Inquirer (June
194

"The statement went on to say that the spiritual teachings of religion
must become the foundation for the new world order and that national
sovereignty must be subordinate to the higher moral law of God."
American Institute of Judaism, excerpt from article in The New York
Times (December 1942)

"There are some plain common-sense considerations applicable to all
these attempts at world planning. They can be briefly stated: 1. To
talk of blueprints for the future or building a world order is, if
properly understood, suggestive, but it is also dangerous. Societies
grow far more truly than they are built. A constitution for a new
world order is never like a blueprint for a skyscraper." Norman
Thomas, in his book What Is Our Destiny? (1944)

"He [John Foster Dulles] stated directly to me that he had every
reason to believe that the Governor [Thomas E. Dewey of New York]
accepts his point of view and that he is personally convinced that
this is the policy that he would promote with great vigor if elected.
So it is fair to say that on the first round the Sphinx of Albany has
established himself as a prima facie champion of a strong and definite
new world order." Excerpt from article by Ralph W. Page in The
Philadelphia Bulletin (May 1944)

"Alchemy for a New World Order" Article by Stephen John Stedman in
Foreign Affairs (May/June 1995)

"The United Nations, he told an audience at Harvard University, 'has
not been able--nor can it be able--to shape a new world order which
events so compellingly demand.' ... The new world order that will
answer economic, military, and political problems, he said, 'urgently
requires, I believe, that the United States take the leadership among
all free peoples to make the underlying concepts and aspirations of
national sovereignty truly meaningful through the federal approach.'"
Gov. Nelson Rockefeller of New York, in an article entitled
"Rockefeller Bids Free Lands Unite: Calls at Harvard for Drive to
Build New World Order" -- The New York Times (February 1962)

"The developing coherence of Asian regional thinking is reflected in a
disposition to consider problems and loyalties in regional terms, and
to evolve regional approaches to development needs and to the
evolution of a new world order." Richard Nixon, in Foreign Affairs
(October 1967)

"He [President Nixon] spoke of the talks as a beginning, saying
nothing more about the prospects for future contacts and merely
reiterating the belief he brought to China that both nations share an
interest in peace and building 'a new world order.'" Excerpt from an
article in The New York Times (February 1972)

"If instant world government, Charter review, and a greatly
strengthened International Court do not provide the answers, what hope
for progress is there? The answer will not satisfy those who seek
simple solutions to complex problems, but it comes down essentially to
this: The hope for the foreseeable lies, not in building up a few
ambitious central institutions of universal membership and general
jurisdiction as was envisaged at the end of the last war, but rather
in the much more decentralized, disorderly and pragmatic process of
inventing or adapting institutions of limited jurisdiction and
selected membership to deal with specific problems on a case-by-case
basis ... In short, the 'house of world order' will have to be built
from the bottom up rather than from the top down. It will look like a
great 'booming, buzzing confusion,' to use William James' famous
description of reality, but an end run around national sovereignty,
eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-
fashioned frontal assault." Richard N. Gardner, in Foreign Affairs
(April 1974)

"The existing order is breaking down at a very rapid rate, and the
main uncertainty is whether mankind can exert a positive role in
shaping a new world order or is doomed to await collapse in a passive
posture. We believe a new order will be born no later than early in
the next century and that the death throes of the old and the birth
pangs of the new will be a testing time for the human species."
Richard A. Falk, in an article entitled "Toward a New World Order:
Modest Methods and Drastic Visions," in the book On the Creation of a
Just World Order (1975)

"My country's history, Mr. President, tells us that it is possible to
fashion unity while cherishing diversity, that common action is
possible despite the variety of races, interests, and beliefs we see
here in this chamber. Progress and peace and justice are attainable.
So we say to all peoples and governments: Let us fashion together a
new world order." Henry Kissinger, in address before the General
Assembly of the United Nations, October 1975)

"At the old Inter-American Office in the Commerce Building here in
Roosevelt's time, as Assistant Secretary of State for Latin American
Affairs under President Truman, as chief whip with Adlai Stevenson and
Tom Finletter at the founding of the United Nations in San Francisco,
Nelson Rockefeller was in the forefront of the struggle to establish
not only an American system of political and economic security but a
new world order." Part of article in The New York Times (November
1975)

"A New World Order" Title of article on commencement address at the
University of Pennsylvania by Hubert H. Humphrey, printed in the
Pennsylvania Gazette (June 1977)

"Further global progress is now possible only through a quest for
universal consensus in the movement towards a new world order."
Mikhail Gorbachev, in an address at the United Nations (December 1988)

"We believe we are creating the beginning of a new world order coming
out of the collapse of the U.S.-Soviet antagonisms." Brent Scowcroft
(August 1990), quoted in The Washington Post (May 1991)

"We can see beyond the present shadows of war in the Middle East to a
new world order where the strong work together to deter and stop
aggression. This was precisely Franklin Roosevelt's and Winston
Churchill's vision for peace for the post-war period." Richard
Gephardt, in The Wall Street Journal (September 1990)

"If we do not follow the dictates of our inner moral compass and stand
up for human life, then his lawlessness will threaten the peace and
democracy of the emerging new world order we now see, this long
dreamed-of vision we've all worked toward for so long." President
George Bush (January 1991)

"But it became clear as time went on that in Mr. Bush's mind the New
World Order was founded on a convergence of goals and interests
between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, so strong and permanent that
they would work as a team through the U.N. Security Council." Excerpt
from A. M. Rosenthal, in The New York Times (January 1991)

"I would support a Presidential candidate who pledged to take the
following steps: ... At the end of the war in the Persian Gulf, press
for a comprehensive Middle East settlement and for a 'new world order'
based not on Pax Americana but on peace through law with a stronger
U.N. and World Court." George McGovern, in The New York Times
(February 199

"... it's Bush's baby, even if he shares its popularization with
Gorbachev. Forget the Hitler 'new order' root; F.D.R. used the phrase
earlier." William Safire, in The New York Times (February 1991)

"How I Learned to Love the New World Order" Article by Sen. Joseph R.
Biden, Jr. in The Wall Street Journal (April 1992)

"How to Achieve The New World Order" Title of book excerpt by Henry
Kissinger, in Time magazine (March 1994)

"The Final Act of the Uruguay Round, marking the conclusion of the
most ambitious trade negotiation of our century, will give birth - in
Morocco - to the World Trade Organization, the third pillar of the New
World Order, along with the United Nations and the International
Monetary Fund." Part of full-page advertisement by the government of
Morocco in The New York Times (April 1994)

"New World Order: The Rise of the Region-State" Title of article by
Kenichi Ohmae, political reform leader in Japan, in The Wall Street
Journal (August 1994)

"The new world order that is in the making must focus on the creation
of a world of democracy, peace and prosperity for all." Nelson
Mandela, in The Philadelphia Inquirer (October 1994)

"The renewal of the nonproliferation treaty was described as important
"for the welfare of the whole world and the new world order."
President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, in The New York Times (April 1995)
One World Order supporters....

"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a
day. But a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period, and
pursued unalterably through every change of ministers
(administrations), too plainly proves a deliberate systematic plan of
reducing us to slavery." Thomas Jefferson "...This regionalization is
in keeping with the Tri-Lateral Plan which calls for a gradual
convergence of East and West, ultimately leading toward the goal of
"one world government'....National sovereignty is no longer a viable
concept..." Zbigniew Brzezinski, National Security Advisor to
President Jimmy Carter.

"It is the sacred principles enshrined in the United Nations charter
to which the American people will henceforth pledge their allegiance."
President George Bush addressing the General Assembly of the U.N.,
February 1,1992.

"...This program is the fixed, determined and approved policy of the
government of the United States." Senator Joseph S. Clark speaking on
the floor of the Senate, March 1, 1962, about PL 87-297 which calls
for the disbanding of all armed forces and the prohibition of their re-
establishment in any form whatsoever.

"Let me control a peoples currency and I care not who makes their
laws..." Meyer Nathaniel Rothchild in a speech to a gathering of world
bankers February 12, 1912.The following year, we subscribed to the
"services" of the newly incorporated Federal Reserve, headed by Mr.
Rothchild.

"By the end of this decade (2000 AD) we will live under the first One
World Government that has ever existed in the society of nations ... a
government with absolute authority to decide the basic issues of human
survival. One world government is inevitable." Pope John Paul II
quoted by Malachi Martin in the book "The Keys of This Blood"

"The New World Order is a world that has a supernational authority to
regulate world commerce and industry; an international organization
that would control the production and consumption of oil; an
international currency that would replace the dollar; a World
Development Fund that would make funds available to free and Communist
nations alike; and an international police force to enforce the edicts
of the New World Order." Former West German Chancellor, Willy Brandt,
former chairman of the Fifth-Socialist International, who chaired the
Brandt Commission in the late 1980s.

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the
right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
David Rockefeller

"But this present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful
and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for
long. Already there are powerful forces at work that threaten to
destroy all of our hopes and efforts to erect an enduring structure of
global interdependence." David Rockefeller, speaking at the Business
Council for the United Nations, September 14, 1994.

"A colossal event is upon us, the birth of a New World Order." Brent
Scowcroft, George Bush's National Security Advisor, said on the eve of
the Gulf War.

"The Persian Gulf crisis is a rare opportunity to forge new bonds with
old enemies (the Soviet Union)...Out of these troubled times a New
World Order can emerge under a United Nations that performs as
envisioned by its founders." President George Bush, September 11,
1990.

"The world can therefore seize the opportunity (the Persian Gulf
crisis) to fulfill the long held promise of a New World Order where
diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the
universal aspirations of mankind." President George Bush in his State
of the Union Address, January 29, 1991.

"NAFTA is a major stepping stone to the New World Order." Henry
Kissinger when campaigning for the passage of NAFTA.

"Further global progress is now possible only through a quest for
universal consensus in the movement towards a new world order."
Mikhail Gorbachev, in an address at the United Nations, December 1988.

"We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it
in blood as well as in words and money." Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., in
"Foreign Affairs," July/August 1995.

"...In short, the 'house of world order' will have to be built from
the bottom up rather than from the top down. It will look like a great
'booming, buzzing confusion,' to use William James' famous description
of reality, but an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it
piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-fashioned
frontal assault." Richard N. Gardner, in "Foreign Affairs," April
1974.

"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world
social democracy, there may still be very great delays and
disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world
system. Countless people - will hate the new world order - and will
die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we
have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of
malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people."
H. G. Wells, in his book entitled "The New World Order" (1939).

"Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those
who would resist us have been totally disarmed." Sara Brady, Chairman,
Handgun Control, to Sen. Howard Metzenbaum, The National Educator,
January 1994, Page 3.

"When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical
Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of
individual freedom to Americans... and so a lot of people say there's
too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you
have to move to limit it. That's what we did in the announcement I
made last weekend on the public housing projects, about how we're
going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try to make
people safer in their communities." President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94,
MTV's "Enough is Enough"

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of
ordinary Americans..." Bill Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page
2A)

"Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously
succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated
administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of
purpose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's
leadership is one of the most important and successful in human
history." David Rockefeller, statement in 1973 about Mao Tse-tung: (NY
Times 8-10-73)

"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle
for independence." Charles Austin Beard (1874-1948)

"War to the hilt between communism and capitalism is inevitable.
Today, of course, we are not strong enough to attack. Our time will
come in thirty or forty years. To win, we shall need the element of
surprise. The Western world will need to be put to sleep. So we shall
begin by launching the most spectacular peace movement on record.
There shall be electrifying overtures and unheard of concessions. The
capitalist countries, stupid and decadent, will rejoice to cooperate
to their own destruction. They will leap at another chance to be
friends. As soon as their guard is down, we shall smash them with our
clenched fist." Dmitrii Z. Manuilskii (Lenin School of Political
Warfare, Moscow, 1931)

"There is no reason for anyone in this country, anyone except a police
officer or a military person, to buy, to own, to have, to use a
handgun....And the only way to do that is to change the Constitution."
Michael Gartner, 1992 in USA Today

"The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United
States is repealed." H. J. Res. 438Introduced by Rep. Major Owens,
1992

Vice President Al Gore as he traveled to Marrakech, Morocco, in April
for the signing of the new world trade agreement. Gore appeared hours
after U.S. planes enforcing an allied 'no fly' zone over northern Iraq
accidentally shot down two U.S. helicopters, killing 15 Americans and
11 foreign officials. 'I want to extend condolences,' Gore said, 'to
the families of those who died in the service of the United
Nations.'" (Los Angeles Times, 6/12/94)

"There is nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine . . . been
here 4 1/2 billion years. We've been here, what, a 100,000 years,
maybe 200,000. And we've only been engaged in heavy industry a little
over 200 years. 200 years versus 4 1/2 billion. And we have the
conceit to think that somehow we're a threat? The planet isn't going
away. We are." George Carlin

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation
of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
Thomas Jefferson

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge
to rule." H. L. Mencken

"Nuclear power must be dealt with irrationally. . . . Nuclear plants
are carcinogens. Let's get that story out. . . . Their lies will catch
up to them. We need endless Chernobyl reminders." Ralph Nader

Cannibalism is a "radical but realistic solution to the problem of
overpopulation." Lyall Watson, The Financial Times, 15 July 1995

"'Protecting the Environment' is a ruse. The goal is the political and
economic subjugation of most men by the few, under the guise of
preserving nature." J. H. Robbins

"...the only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another
United States: We can't let other countries have the same number of
cars, the amount of industrialization, we have in the U.S. We have to
stop these Third World countries right where they are. And it is
important to the rest of the world to make sure that they don't suffer
economically by virtue of our stopping them." Michael Oppenheimer,
Environmental Defense Fund

"The necessary consequence of an egalitarian program is the decidedly
inegalitarian creation of a ruthless power elite." M. N. Rothbard

Global Sustainability requires: "the deliberate quest of poverty . . .
reduced resource consumption . . . and set levels of mortality
control." Professor Maurice King

"Allowing the EPA to condone continued use of a chemical whenever the
benefits outweighs the risks is absolutely anathema to the
environmental community." Janet Hathaway, Natural Resources Defense
Council

The Environmentalist's Dream is an Egalitarian Society based on:
rejection of economic growth, a smaller population, eating lower on
the food chain, consuming a lot less, and sharing a much lower level
of resources much more equally. Aaron Wildavsky

"A global climate treaty must be implemented even if there is no
scientific evidence to back the greenhouse effect." Richard Benedict,
State Dept. employee working on assignment from the Conservation
Foundation

"Giving society cheap, abundant energy . . . would be the equivalent o
f giving an idiot child a machine gun." Paul Ehrlich, Stanford
University

"The secret to David McTaggart's (early officer in Greanpeace) success
is the secret to Greenpeace's success: It doesn't matter what is
true . . . . it only matters what people believe is true . . . . You
are what the media define you to be. [Greenpeace] became a myth, and a
myth-generating machine." Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace

". . . a year is about one-fifth of the time we have left if we are
going to preserve any kind of quality in our world." Garrett de Bell
(1970)

"The historical experience of socialist countries has sadly
demonstrated that collectivism does not do away with alienation but
rather increases it, adding to it a lack of basic necessities and
economic inefficiency." Pope John Paul I

"The move toward cotnrolling less and less pollution at greater and
greater expense -- until you are spending everything to control
nothing -- is one of the big water quality problems we are facing in
the future." Ernest Rosenberg

"Complex technology of any sort is an assault on human dignity. It
would be little short of disastrous for us to discover the source of
clean, cheap, abundant energy, because of what we might do with it."
Amory Lovins, Rocky Mountain Institute

". . . the Planning Commission must say 'no' to development . . .
Austin, Texas, is showing us about land use . . . . " Judge Armstrong,
Kentucky County

"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being
forced to pay the cost." M. N. Rothbard

"Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs." John
Davis, editor of Earth First! Journal

"We've got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of
global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing -- in terms
of economic policy and environmental policy." Timothy Wirth, former
U.S. Senator (D-Colorado)