Metaphysics -trying to prove the incredible by means of the incomprehensible.
Pastor Frank
>Pastor Frank wrote:
>My argument was that I can't know it *that* routinely and innately because
>reality is not one of my dreams!
Are you sure? Whether I tell you now: You are dreaming, or whether I
tell you the same in your dreams, BOTH times you will likely say the same as
above, quote: "Reality is NOT one of my dreams!"
If you are THAT sure you know the difference between illusion and
reality, prove that "reality is NOT one of your dreams".
>> What do YOU value instead?
>On a personal level, I value the scientific method too much, but what else
>is there?
The purpose of religion is to make humans humane, people with a heart,
people who can love and show that in caring for each other, not to make them
better computers.
Tell us then how "the scientific method" is useful in engendering humane
qualities such as the "fruits in the spirit": "Be ye therefore perfect, as
your Father in heaven is perfect" (Jesus in Matt. 5:48). "But the fruit of
the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,
gentleness, goodness, faith, generosity, self control." (Galatians 5:22-23)
>> their divinity, their God, to the emulation of
>>which they will dedicate their lives.
>You'll have to define divinity and God, I know what the other words mean.
People elevate certain principles they wish to be permanent and absolute
to divinity and/or God status. However is false to say, that humane
qualities = God. For God can only exist when "possessing man" and showing
"humane qualities" in action. That is why God, Allah, YHWH is always shown
to be a person, (not so the Tao).
>What can this possibly mean? Is perfection ever defined? Is perfection
>not relative?
>
>> It can be, but you are free to make any moral principle your absolute.
>>Many, especially secular humanists and atheists have only one absolute,
>>that -there are no absolutes.
>How could there be??? Answer that, without necessary beings and circular
>reasoning.
How can what be??? Do you deny me my freedom to choose the absolutes
that govern my life, OR form associations of believers like myself and call
them churches? Or for that matter can I not elevate "the good" to divine
status, or call the expression of "the good" in man "God" , and call the
opposite of good / God Satan? Who are you to question the validity of
proprietary words peculiar to religion, unless you are a religionist who
proffers YOUR OWN "better" definition not just trash someone else's and walk
away like a vandal?
You ONLY freedom you have in this, is to question my perception of good
and evil, for those are generic words not originated by religion, and thus
may differ in your definition. That is why we proselytize to get people to
accept religious definitions which are remarkably uniform across all major
religions. (per: Perennial Philosophy, by Aldous Huxley)
>>"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,
>>gentleness, goodness, faith, generosity, self control."
>> - Galatians 5:22-23
>>
>Obviously! Like this is original!
>
>> You don't think much of people making those attributes their God and
>>spend a life-time in the practice and perfection of those humane
qualities,
>>do you?
>I only said that it was obvious and that it wasn't original.
Though everybody probably knows those generic attributes, they are quite
"original" when put into practice, for none that are implemented are ever
identical across the board. Please read: "making those attributes their
God", for that contains all the answers you wanted re: divinity, god(s),
supernatural entities and all other proprietary word peculiar to religions.
Thanks for taking the time as usual, also I must confess Pastor Frank, my
views on all these questions change about every decade, but since you and
I have only been exchanging posts for a few years, the above is what
you've been getting! ;-) We're only capricious animals, after all, or is
that my imagination? I don't think I would have ever imagined that, or
DNA or quasars either!
To me the crown of literature is the scripture of various religions. It
contains ALL the accumulated wisdom of mankind, some of it in dramatic
(historically and scientifically fanciful) format. Have you ever read the
Bhagavad Gita, the lovesong to God?
Watch out for the Trolls in these NGs how they can ONLY speak negatively
about everything. All the beauty and glory I see and live in, being
conscious of being carried at the bosom of God, is lost on them.
I'm interested in reaching the academically neutral, because I want them
to see what I see, not for the purpose of conversion to any particular
religion, but to celebrate religion. I am not interested getting into
slugfests with Trolls (though I do sometimes when I think I see some
capacity to think positively). But most of all I want to celebrate God with
others. Unfortunately, invariably the kill-joy Trolls crash the party to
defecate on everything and everyone, with the consequence that Religious NGs
are written off by most religionists and celebrations of God are rare
indeed. (Matt. 7:6)
Pastor Frank
Technological progress is like an axe
in the hands of a pathological criminal.
- Albert Einstein
Real progress is progress in charity,
all other advances being secondary thereto.
- Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)
Peter Zeller
> tell you the same in your dreams, BOTH times you will likely say the same
No. He wouldn't because in a dream you cannot act, you are acted upon.
P.
Pastor Frank
>Whether I tell you now: You are dreaming, or whether I
>> tell you the same in your dreams, BOTH times you will likely say the same
>
>No. He wouldn't because in a dream you cannot act, you are acted upon.
>
"Acted upon" by whom? Do you consider yourself a multiple personality,
where one personality can act upon another? If you are, you are not alone,
for it's a modern fallacy and all "self-improvement" schemes are based on
it.
Pastor Frank
"By this shall all men know, that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another."
- Jesus in John 13:35
Alan Sindler
Submitted by Wally Amos
Paul Harvey, American radio's premier commentator, read this on his
Noon News, Saturday, May 16, 1998. The response was overwhelming.
Harvey's Chicago office was inundated by phone calls, mail and faxes.
Here's the text:
An Open Letter from God:
My dear children, and believe Me, that is all of you, I consider
Myself a pretty patient guy. I mean, look at the Grand Canyon. It took
millions of years to get it right. And about evolution? Boy, nothing
is slower than designing that whole Darwinian thing to take place cell
by cell and gene by gene.
And I have been patient through your fashions, your civilizations,
wars and schemes, and the countless ways that you take Me for granted
until you get yourselves into big trouble again and again.
I want to let you know about some of the things that started ticking
Me off. First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Me up a
wall. Enough already!
Let's get one thing straight. These are your religions, not Mine. I'm
the whole enchilada. I'm beyond 'em all.
Every one of your religions claims that there's only one of Me, which,
by the way, is absolutely true, but in the very next breath each
religion claims that it's My favorite one. And each claims its bible
was written personally by Me, and that all of the other bibles are
man-made. Oh, Me. How do I ever begin to put a stop to such
complicated nonsense?
All right, listen up now. I am your Father and Mother, and I don't
play favorites among My children.
Also, I hate to break it to you, but I don't write. My longhand is
awful, and I've always been more of a doer anyway. So ALL of your
books, including those bibles, were written by men and women. They
were inspired men and women, they were remarkable people, but they
also made mistakes here and there. And I made sure of that, so that
you would never trust a written word rather than your own living
heart.
You see, one human being to Me -- even a bum on the street -- is worth
more than all of the holy books in the world. That's just the kind of
a guy I am.
My spirit is not an historical thing. It's alive right now, right now,
as fresh as your next breath. Holy books and religious rites are
sacred and powerful, but they are not more so than the least of you.
They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep
you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from
trusting your own personal connection with Me.
Which brings Me to My next point about your nonsense. You act like I
need you and your religions to stick up for Me or win souls for My
sake. Please, don't do Me any favors. I can stand quite well on My
own, thank you. I don't need you to defend Me, I don't need constant
credit. I just want you to be good to each other.
And another thing. I don't get all worked up over money or politics,
so stop dragging My name into your dramas. For example, I swear to Me
that I never threatened Oral Roberts. I never rode in any of
Rajneesh's Rolls Royces and I never told Pat Robertson to run for
president, and I have never had a conversation with Jim Bakker, Jerry
Falwell or Jimmy Swaggart.
Of course, come Judgement Day, I certainly intend to.
Now the thing is, I want you to stop thinking of religion as some sort
of a loyalty pledge to Me. The true purpose of religion is so that YOU
can become more aware of ME, not the other way around. Believe Me, I
know you already. I know what's in each of your hearts, and I love
you anyway with no strings attached. So, lighten up and enjoy Me.
That's what religion's best for.
What you seem to forget is how mysterious I am. You look at the petty
differences in your scriptures and you say, "Well, if this is the
truth, then that can't be." But instead of trying to figure out My
paradoxes and unfathomable nature -- which, by the way, you never will
-- why not open your hearts to the simple, common threads of every
religion? You know what I'm talking about. Play nice with each other.
Love and respect everyone. Be kind. Even when life is scary or
confusing, take courage and be of good cheer, for I'm always with you.
And learn how to be quiet, so that you can hear My still, small voice.
I don't like to shout. Leave the world a better place by living your
life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are My own child. Hold
back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die surely will,
and the parts that can't, won't. So don't worry, be happy. (I stole
that last line from Bobby McFerrin, but Who gave it to him in the
first place?)
Simple stuff now. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like
you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And I am very tired
of being your main excuse. Do you think whether you call Me God, or
Yahweh, or Jehovah, Allah, Wakatonka, Brahma, Father, Mother, even the
Void of Nirvana? Do you think I care which of My Special Children you
feel closest to -- Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed or any of
the others? You can call Me and My Special Ones any names you choose,
if only you will go about My business of loving one another as I love
you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?
No, I am not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your
religions, honor them, learn from them, just as you should enjoy,
honor, and learn from your parents. But do you walk around telling
everyone that your parents are better than theirs? Your religion, like
your parents, may always have the most special place in your heart. I
don't mind that at all. And I don't want you to combine all of the
great traditions into One big mess. Each religion is unique for a
reason. Each has a unique style so that people can find the best path
for themselves. But My Special Children -- the ones that your
religions revolve around -- all live in the same place in My heart,
and they get along perfectly, I assure you.
The clergy must stop creating a myth of sibling rivalry where there is
none. My blessed children of Earth, the world has grown too small for
your pervasive religious bigotrys and confusion. The whole planet is
now connected by air travel, satellite dishes, telephones, fax
machines, rock concerts, diseases and mutual needs and concerns. Get
with the program!
If you really want to help me celebrate the birthday of My Son Jesus,
then commit yourselves to figuring out how to feed your hungry and
clothe your naked, and protect your abused and shelter your poor. And
just as important, make your own everyday life a shining example of
kindness and good humor. I've given you all the resources you need, if
only you abandon your fear of eachother and begin living, and loving
and laughing together.
Now, I am not really ticked off. Not really. I just wanted to grab
your attention because I hate to see you suffer. But I gave you free
will, so what can I do now other than try to influence you through
reason, persuasion, and a little old-fashioned guilt and manipulation?
After all, you know I am the original Jewish Mother. I just want you
to be happy, and I'll sit in the dark. I really am with you always.
Always.
Trust in Me.
Your One and Only,
God
Justin
Tony Dermody
>An Open Letter From God -
> Submitted by Wally Amos
>
>Paul Harvey, American radio's premier commentator, read this on his
>Noon News, Saturday, May 16, 1998. The response was overwhelming.
>Harvey's Chicago office was inundated by phone calls, mail and faxes.
>
>Here's the text:
>
>An Open Letter from God:
>
>My dear children, ...
[snip]
This is amazing! Who is this Wally Amos (or is it Paul
Harvey?) who receives letters from God? At last, an end to
all the arguments. A real letter from God proving once and
for all His existence.
Come out here Wally Amos (or is it Paul Harvey?) and tell us
how it was done!
Tony Dermody
(Delete 'nodamnjunk.' from e-mail address to reply).
SPARK: http://www.iol.ie/~tdermody/index.html
Unfortunately, now somewhat out-of-date.
Kerusso
First of all, it is written as if it is directed to all different religions,
when clearly, by its allusions to Christian concepts, it is referring most
clearly to current Christians.
Secondly, if this god doesn't write, how could he have written this?
Thirdly, if Jesus is referred to as this god's son and also as one of his
special children (like Buddha, Krishna and Muhammed), Jesus must have been
having a bad day when He said that He was "THE way, THE truth and THE light"
in John 14:6.
I won't comment further on this, I just wanted to point out the idiotic
nature of this supposed letter from god -- nothing personal.
See ya...
John Calla
<als...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>An Open Letter From God -
> Submitted by Wally Amos
Well why don't we all just climb a hill, hold hands, and buy the world
a Coke.
Give me a break!
John
The DataRat
"Well why don't we all just climb a hill, hold hands,
and buy the world a Coke."
Amen !
The DataRat
kyle
act of love also.
John Calla wrote:
> On Sun, 30 May 1999 23:25:35 -0600, Alan Sindler
> <als...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >An Open Letter From God -
> > Submitted by Wally Amos
>
> Well why don't we all just climb a hill, hold hands, and buy the world
> a Coke.
>
Amy
Gotta get Mrs.Rat a Pepsi - Ben too, I think!
In article <37542C39...@home.com>, The DataRat <dat...@home.com> wrote:
"Well why don't we all just climb a hill, hold hands,
and buy the world a Coke."
Amen !
The DataRat
The DataRat
"I won't comment further on this, I just wanted to
point out the idiotic nature of this supposed letter
from god..."
It's the new universal religion where all people
of good will are acceptable before the god.
In Post-Modernism, the only "bad" thing is
conflict and division.
The DataRat