"ancient Aryan" word for cloud and mountain?
Adam Funk
Baring-Gould writes:
The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
--
Taken on the whole however this is a fine disc and a good example of
the current pop scene attempting to break out of its vulgarisms and
sometimes downright obscene derivative hogwash.
(Julian Stone-Mason B.A., 1972)
Peter T. Daniels
> In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
>
> Baring-Gould writes:
>
> The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
> the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
> mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>
> Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
> edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
It had to be someone who knew tall mountains, so Sanskrit seems more
likely than Avestan. He had access to translations of both literatures
since Max Mueller's Sacred Books of the Orient (50 vols.) were readily
available.
Indeed he may well have gotten it from Max Mueller -- you might look
through the many volumes of his collected writings on Oriental topics.
Trond Engen
> In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
> Baring-Gould writes:
>
> The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
> the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
> mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>
> Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
> edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics
here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but
rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks,
since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have
denoted quarried stones.
Its cognate in Old Indic is <�$man> "rock", in Avestic <asman> "rock,
sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans
he means Proto-Indo-Iranians.
I can't see any relevance for English usage. Follow-up to sci.lang only.
--
Trond Engen
Yusuf B Gursey
: Adam Funk:
:> In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
:> Baring-Gould writes:
:>
:> The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
:> the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
:> he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
:> mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
:>
:> Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
:> probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
:> edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
: It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics
: here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but
: rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks,
: since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have
: denoted quarried stones.
: Its cognate in Old Indic is <�$man> "rock", in Avestic <asman> "rock,
BTW new persian has a:sma:n "sky"
: sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans
anal...@hotmail.com
"adri" - synonym of both mountain (usual) and cloud (rare) in a
pejorative sense - "ignorance". The sentence is ambiguous since
Sanskrit has dozens of synonyms for both "cloud" and "Mountain".
Peter T. Daniels
> Adam Funk:
>
> > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
> > Baring-Gould writes:
>
> > The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
> > the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> > he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
> > mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>
> > Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> > probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
> > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
>
> It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics
> here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but
> rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks,
> since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have
> denoted quarried stones.
>
> sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans
> he means Proto-Indo-Iranians.
Maybe ... he must have been fairly young at that time, if this is the
same William S. Baring-Gould who was a Sherlock Holmes authority ca.
1950 ... so he _may_ not have used "Aryan" to mean 'IE'.
Horace LaBadie
<be7f8f93-cef7-4ff0...@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jul 18, 4:16�ｿｽpm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
> > Adam Funk:
> >
> > > In the chapter "Schamir" of Curious Myths of the Middle Ages ,
> > > Baring-Gould writes:
> >
> > > �ｿｽ �ｿｽThe ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. �ｿｽTo him
> > > �ｿｽ �ｿｽthe piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> > > �ｿｽ �ｿｽhe had but one word whereby to designate both. �ｿｽThese great
> > > �ｿｽ �ｿｽmountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
> >
> > > Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> > > probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? �ｿｽ(I came across this in the 1906
> > > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
> >
> > It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics
> > here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but
> > rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks,
> > since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have
> > denoted quarried stones.
> >
> > Its cognate in Old Indic is <�ｿｽ$man> "rock", in Avestic <asman> "rock,
> > sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans
> > he means Proto-Indo-Iranians.
>
> Maybe ... he must have been fairly young at that time, if this is the
> same William S. Baring-Gould who was a Sherlock Holmes authority ca.
> 1950 ... so he may not have used "Aryan" to mean 'IE'.
Rev. Sabine Baring-Gould (28 January 1834 - 2 January 1924), grandfather
of William Baring-Gould, the Holmesian authority.
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
> In article
> <be7f8f93-cef7-4ff0-b49d-82782966b...@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 18, 4:16 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
> > > Adam Funk:
>
> > > > In the chapter "Schamir" of Curious Myths of the Middle Ages ,
> > > > Baring-Gould writes:
>
> > > > the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> > > > mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>
> > > > Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> > > > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
>
> > > It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics
> > > here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but
> > > rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks,
> > > since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have
> > > denoted quarried stones.
>
> > > sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans
> > > he means Proto-Indo-Iranians.
>
> > Maybe ... he must have been fairly young at that time, if this is the
> > same William S. Baring-Gould who was a Sherlock Holmes authority ca.
> > 1950 ... so he may not have used "Aryan" to mean 'IE'.
>
> Rev. Sabine Baring-Gould (28 January 1834 - 2 January 1924), grandfather
> of William Baring-Gould, the Holmesian authority.
Then it's more likely that he intended IE in general.
Jerry Friedman
> On Jul 18, 3:33 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
> > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
>
> > Baring-Gould writes:
>
> > The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
> > the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> > he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
> > mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>
> > Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> > probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
> > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
>
> It had to be someone who knew tall mountains, so Sanskrit seems more
> likely than Avestan. He had access to translations of both literatures
> since Max Mueller's Sacred Books of the Orient (50 vols.) were readily
> available.
The NSOED says that starting in the mid 19th Century, "Aryan" could
mean "A member of any of the peoples who spoke the parent language of
the Indo-European (or esp. Indo-Iranian) family, or one of their
descendants. _arch._" Does the quoted passage make it clear that
Baring-Gould meant Indo-Iranian, not Indo-European?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
Compare the articles on "Aryan" in the 9th and 11th Britannicas. Since
this is the _grandfather_ of the better-known WSB-G, it's more likely
just a vague reference, not anything specific.
But Max Mueller would still be the first place to look for such a
factoid.
Franz Gnaedinger
> In sci.lang Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote in <h3taul$2j...@news.eternal-september.org>:
> : Adam Funk:
>
> :> In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,:> Baring-Gould writes:
>
> :>
> :> The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
> :> the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> :> he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
> :> mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
> :>
> :> Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> :> probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
> :> edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
>
> : It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics
> : here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but
> : rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks,
> : since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have
> : denoted quarried stones.
>
>
> BTW new persian has a:sma:n "sky"
>
> : sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans
> : he means Proto-Indo-Iranians.
Looking after the flat of a friend of mine I don't
have my books at hand but I dare propose
a Magdalenian reading: AS MAN, upward AS
right hand MAN, the gesture of the raised right
hand pointing toward a mountain ridge or peak
or to the sky - the gesture made infamous by
you know whom I mean. Avestan asman 'rock'
and Persian a:sma:n 'sky' are then derivatives.
Sanskrit adri 'mountain' (usual) and cloud (rare)
mentioned by Analyst would be a derivatig of
AD RAG, toward AD the towering one RAG,
for example the famous mountain called Rigi
in Switzerland is named for the so-called Riginen,
geological layers upraised by the moving tectonic
plates. Magdalenian RAG means the line of the
head and back of an animal in cave art, first line
drawn by Paleolithic artists, strongly evocative
of the whole animal according to Leroy-Gourhan.
Ancient Greek rachos or rakhos means back,
also mountain ridge. German has Rücken 'back'
and Bergrücken 'mountain ridge'. Old English ryc
meant back. Latin rex 'king and regina 'queen'
come from the same word, also Sanskrit raj 'king'.
And so on. Tomorrow I shall get Mallory and Adams
from home and look up the PIE words for sky and
mountain.
Jerry Friedman
> On Jul 19, 12:43 am, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 18, 2:13 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 18, 3:33 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
> > > > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
>
> > > > Baring-Gould writes:
>
> > > > The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
> > > > the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
> > > > he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
> > > > mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>
> > > > Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
> > > > probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
> > > > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
>
> > > It had to be someone who knew tall mountains, so Sanskrit seems more
> > > likely than Avestan. He had access to translations of both literatures
> > > since Max Mueller's Sacred Books of the Orient (50 vols.) were readily
> > > available.
>
> > ...
>
> > The NSOED says that starting in the mid 19th Century, "Aryan" could
> > mean "A member of any of the peoples who spoke the parent language of
> > the Indo-European (or esp. Indo-Iranian) family, or one of their
> > descendants. _arch._" Does the quoted passage make it clear that
> > Baring-Gould meant Indo-Iranian, not Indo-European?
>
> Compare the articles on "Aryan" in the 9th and 11th Britannicas.
I'll get back to you on that.
> Since
> this is the _grandfather_ of the better-known WSB-G, it's more likely
> just a vague reference, not anything specific.
Okay, thanks.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk:
>
>> In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
>> Baring-Gould writes:
>>
>> The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
>> the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
>> he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
>> mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>>
>> Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
>> probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
>> edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
>
> It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics
> here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but
> rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks,
> since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have
> denoted quarried stones.
>
> Its cognate in Old Indic is <á$man> "rock", in Avestic <asman> "rock,
> sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans
> he means Proto-Indo-Iranians.
Interesting, thanks.
--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)
Adam Funk
>> Adam Funk:
>>
>> > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_,
>> > Baring-Gould writes:
>>
>> > The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him
>> > the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that
>> > he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great
>> > mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning.
>>
>> > Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he
>> > probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906
>> > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)
...
> Maybe ... he must have been fairly young at that time, if this is the
> same William S. Baring-Gould who was a Sherlock Holmes authority ca.
> 1950 ... so he _may_ not have used "Aryan" to mean 'IE'.
Sorry, I'd forgotten about that Baring-Gould. This is the one I was
quoting:
The Reverend Sabine Baring-Gould (28 January 1834 – 2 January 1924)
was an English hagiographer, antiquarian, novelist and eclectic
scholar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Baring-Gould
--
hmmmm: sounds like the same DLL hell problem my cousin had. try
deleting all DLLs in your Windows/system32 directory and see what
happens. (Bryce Utting)
Adam Funk
Good point. (I posted the earlier clarification about the author
before I saw this. Actually, I thought Sabine was better-known whan
WS; otherwise I would've made it clear from the start which one I
meant.)
> But Max Mueller would still be the first place to look for such a
> factoid.
Needle in a 50-volume haystack?
--
I spend almost as much time figuring out what's wrong with my computer
as I do actually using it. Networked software, especially, requires
frequent updates and maintenance, all of which gets in the way of
doing routine work. (Stoll 1995)
Peter T. Daniels
> On 2009-07-19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 19, 12:43 am, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 18, 2:13 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> > It had to be someone who knew tall mountains, so Sanskrit seems more
> >> > likely than Avestan. He had access to translations of both literatures
> >> > since Max Mueller's Sacred Books of the Orient (50 vols.) were readily
> >> > available.
>
> >> ...
>
> >> The NSOED says that starting in the mid 19th Century, "Aryan" could
> >> mean "A member of any of the peoples who spoke the parent language of
> >> the Indo-European (or esp. Indo-Iranian) family, or one of their
> >> descendants. _arch._" Does the quoted passage make it clear that
> >> Baring-Gould meant Indo-Iranian, not Indo-European?
>
> > Compare the articles on "Aryan" in the 9th and 11th Britannicas. Since
> > this is the _grandfather_ of the better-known WSB-G, it's more likely
> > just a vague reference, not anything specific.
>
> Good point. (I posted the earlier clarification about the author
> before I saw this. Actually, I thought Sabine was better-known whan
> WS; otherwise I would've made it clear from the start which one I
> meant.)
>
> > But Max Mueller would still be the first place to look for such a
> > factoid.
>
> Needle in a 50-volume haystack?
He didn't write 50 volumes of collected essays. His essays were
collected in a few volumes, including some called "Chips from an
Orientalist's Workshop." They're probably on google books, and you can
probably tell from the titles which ones to check. You could even
search suitable words in google books.
I'm surprised you've never come across the Sacred Books of the East.
The only complete English translation of the Avesta occupies three
widely spaced volumes in it, and the big Indian bookstore on 74th St.
in Jackson Heights, Queens, New York, carries them and many volumes of
Buddhist and Hindu scriptures in the most recent reprint of the series
-- IIRC they're $16 each.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Shocking! Do the Hindutvas know about this?
benl...@ihug.co.nz
There are other possible connections, though I think the above is
probably what B-G had in mind. Among the words for 'cloud' mentioned
in Buck are
Welsh cwmwl, cf. Latin cumulus 'heap, pile, mass; addition, increase,
surplus, summit' (and now of course a type of cloud)
ModE cloud from ME cloud 'hill, mass of earth, cloud', OE clu:d 'rock,
hill'.
Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
There's a rendition of the Qur'an in the set, too.
Dušan Vukotić
I've been talking about it for years... not only cloud and mountain
but earth, sky and whatever may resemble to pile, clod or globe/ball
(it means hundreds and hundreds of other words).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/msg/2b148db0121c908b?hl=en&
Gnibelung:
http://vukotic.50webs.com/pdf/ringe.pdf
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Although it sounds and looks quite different English cloud, German
Wolke and Slavic oblak (cloud) are derived from the same agglutinative
form - *hnəbəl-; heap and cumulus too.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
What about nīlābha? It complies with my proposed ur-basis - *hnə-
bəl- ;-)
Of course, there is another Sanskrit word for both cloud and mountain,
it is balāhaka... similar to Serbo-Slavic oblak (cloud) and planina/
plany (mountain); probably from bala (bulkiness; Serb. obilje
'plenitude', obilan 'flush, abundant', oblik 'form, shape');
cf. Eng. heavy and heaven; Brainy and similar self-styled scientists
will tell you that there is nothing in there but chance
resemblance...:-)
DV
Adam Funk
> On Jul 19, 4:45 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-07-19, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> On Jul 18, 2:13 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> > It had to be someone who knew tall mountains, so Sanskrit seems more
>> >> > likely than Avestan. He had access to translations of both literatures
>> >> > since Max Mueller's Sacred Books of the Orient (50 vols.) were readily
>> >> > available.
...
>> > But Max Mueller would still be the first place to look for such a
>> > factoid.
>>
>> Needle in a 50-volume haystack?
>
> He didn't write 50 volumes of collected essays. His essays were
> collected in a few volumes, including some called "Chips from an
> Orientalist's Workshop." They're probably on google books, and you can
> probably tell from the titles which ones to check. You could even
> search suitable words in google books.
OK, I assumed you were still talking about Mueller's "50 vols." you
mentioned earlier. To be honest, I think I've already got a good
enough answer to my question, for my purposes (idle curiosity).
> I'm surprised you've never come across the Sacred Books of the East.
> The only complete English translation of the Avesta occupies three
> widely spaced volumes in it, and the big Indian bookstore on 74th St.
> in Jackson Heights, Queens, New York, carries them and many volumes of
> Buddhist and Hindu scriptures in the most recent reprint of the series
I've heard of the series, but it's not an area I've had occasion to
study. (And I've only been to NYC once, in the 1980s.)
--
Steve: Now, okay. I did say that monkeys could program Visual Basic.
Leo: But not that all Visual Basic programmers are monkeys.
Steve: Exactly. [Security Now 194]