ps- and pn- words in English and French
Adam Funk
The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
(at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
pronounced in French.
AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
/pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
sense.
But I'm curious about the pronounced P in French; I'm not aware of any
"natural" French words that start with /ps/ or /pn/ clusters. Were
these initial clusters introduced into French with the technical
terms, and why?
(On the other hand, there are some etymologically related words in
French, such as "poumon" --- related to the same Greek root as
"pneumatique" but altered naturally so it doesn't have the /pn/
cluster.)
--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)
R H Draney
>
>The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>(at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>pronounced in French.
I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I always pronounce the initial
P in "psittacine" and others derived from the same root....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Ray O'Hara
"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:h6uu6...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Adam Funk filted:
>>
>>The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>>(at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>>pronounced in French.
>
> I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I always pronounce the
> initial
> P in "psittacine" and others derived from the same root....r
>
Who knows if you're unusual but all sources agree its psilent. ;)
John Dean
> (Feel free to prune the follow-ups; I read all three groups.)
>
>
> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
> pronounced in French.
OED gives a pronounced 'p' for various of the 'ps' and 'pn' words.
Frinstance, for many of the 'pneu*' words the pronunciation of the 'p' is
given as a viable alternative to the 'n' pronunciation. And words like
'pnyx' and 'pnictide' are given with the 'p' sounded as the only way.
Similarly, various of the 'ps*' words can have the 'p' sounded.
As for 'ps', some of the 'psycho*' words have both pronunciations and words
like 'psyllium' only the 'p' sound.
>
> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
> sense.
In the entry for 'psalter' OED describes the 'initial ps-' as 'rare' in ME
and OE but it was evidently there, 'psalter' being a case in point, albeit
with the mute 'p' in pronunciation.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Christian Weisgerber
> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
> pronounced in French.
It is also pronounced in German, and German doesn't have any native
words starting with ps- or pn- (or pt- or mn-) either; they're all
loans from Greek.
> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
> sense.
I always thought the initial stop disappeared along with the one
in kn- and gn-.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
R H Draney
No wonder those damn parakeets were staring at me....r
António Marques
> (Feel free to prune the follow-ups; I read all three groups.)
>
>
> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
> pronounced in French.
>
> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
> sense.
I think the answer to your question is that it all depends. English
settled for not pronouncing most of those. Other languages with more
permissive phonetics may do it differently. I.e, this is not a matter of
english vs french.
> But I'm curious about the pronounced P in French; I'm not aware of any
> "natural" French words that start with /ps/ or /pn/ clusters. Were
> these initial clusters introduced into French with the technical
> terms, and why?
>
>
> (On the other hand, there are some etymologically related words in
> French, such as "poumon" --- related to the same Greek root as
> "pneumatique" but altered naturally so it doesn't have the /pn/
> cluster.)
It's not a learned word.
James Hogg
Besides which it derives from Latin "pulmo", not from Greek
"pneumon" (originally "pleumon").
--
James
Adam Funk
> "R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote: in message
>> I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I always pronounce the
>> initial
>> P in "psittacine" and others derived from the same root....r
>>
>
> Who knows if you're unusual but all sources agree its psilent. ;)
John Cooper Clarke reads "psycle sluts" with a silent P.
--
Oh, I do most of my quality thinking on the old sandbox. [Bucky Katt]
Adam Funk
> Quoth António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>, and I quote:
>
>>Adam Funk wrote:
That's what I meant by "naturally", but...
> Besides which it derives from Latin "pulmo", not from Greek
> "pneumon" (originally "pleumon").
...oops!
--
I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway;
Whatever it is, I'm against it! [Prof. Wagstaff]
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>> pronounced in French.
>>
>> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
>> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
>> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
>> sense.
>
> I think the answer to your question is that it all depends. English
> settled for not pronouncing most of those. Other languages with more
> permissive phonetics may do it differently. I.e, this is not a matter of
> english vs french.
I agree. I framed the question in those terms because it occurred to
me that way, since English and French are the languages I'm most
familiar with. I'm interested in the general idea of more or less
permissive phonetics.
Is the situation in Portuguese roughly the same as in French?
--
Do you know what they do to book thieves up at Santa Rita?
http://www.shigabooks.com/indeces/bookhunter.html
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>> pronounced in French.
>
> It is also pronounced in German, and German doesn't have any native
> words starting with ps- or pn- (or pt- or mn-) either; they're all
> loans from Greek.
That's what I thought. Are the mn- words actually pronounced /mn/ in
German? (I can't recall ever hearing them.)
>> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
>> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
>> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
>> sense.
>
> I always thought the initial stop disappeared along with the one
> in kn- and gn-.
That's a different situation from my understanding of the ps- and pn-
words. The kn- words (Knie/knee, Knabe/knave, etc.) are native
Germanic ones; the initial /k/ was pronounced but has disappeared on
the way to modern English.
--
I worry that 10 or 15 years from now, [my daughter] will come to me
and say 'Daddy, where were you when they took freedom of the press
away from the Internet?' [Mike Godwin, EFF http://www.eff.org/ ]
Christian Weisgerber
> > It is also pronounced in German, and German doesn't have any native
> > words starting with ps- or pn- (or pt- or mn-) either; they're all
> > loans from Greek.
>
> That's what I thought. Are the mn- words actually pronounced /mn/ in
> German? (I can't recall ever hearing them.)
According to the dictionary, yes. In practice, I don't know. They
are very few and rather specialized terms.
> > I always thought the initial stop disappeared along with the one
> > in kn- and gn-.
>
> That's a different situation from my understanding of the ps- and pn-
> words. The kn- words (Knie/knee, Knabe/knave, etc.) are native
> Germanic ones; the initial /k/ was pronounced but has disappeared on
> the way to modern English.
Yes, and my naï¿œve assumption was that the ps- and pn- loans were
originally loaned with an initial /p/ into English, which later
disappeared, probably at the same time as the /k/ in kn-.
This may not be true. What do we know about the historical
pronunciation of the Greek loans?
Robert Bannister
> On 2009-08-24, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>>> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>>> pronounced in French.
>> It is also pronounced in German, and German doesn't have any native
>> words starting with ps- or pn- (or pt- or mn-) either; they're all
>> loans from Greek.
>
> That's what I thought. Are the mn- words actually pronounced /mn/ in
> German? (I can't recall ever hearing them.)
>
>
>>> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
>>> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
>>> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
>>> sense.
>> I always thought the initial stop disappeared along with the one
>> in kn- and gn-.
>
> That's a different situation from my understanding of the ps- and pn-
> words. The kn- words (Knie/knee, Knabe/knave, etc.) are native
> Germanic ones; the initial /k/ was pronounced but has disappeared on
> the way to modern English.
>
>
It's strange we didn't just insert a vowel like in French "canif".
--
Rob Bannister
Adam Funk
> OED gives a pronounced 'p' for various of the 'ps' and 'pn' words.
> Frinstance, for many of the 'pneu*' words the pronunciation of the 'p' is
> given as a viable alternative to the 'n' pronunciation. And words like
> 'pnyx' and 'pnictide' are given with the 'p' sounded as the only way.
> Similarly, various of the 'ps*' words can have the 'p' sounded.
> As for 'ps', some of the 'psycho*' words have both pronunciations and words
> like 'psyllium' only the 'p' sound.
I found that for psycho- but I couldn't find it for pneuma-.
> In the entry for 'psalter' OED describes the 'initial ps-' as 'rare' in ME
> and OE but it was evidently there, 'psalter' being a case in point, albeit
> with the mute 'p' in pronunciation.
Interesting.
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> That's what I thought. Are the mn- words actually pronounced /mn/ in
>> German? (I can't recall ever hearing them.)
>
> According to the dictionary, yes. In practice, I don't know. They
> are very few and rather specialized terms.
The only one I could think of in English was "mnemonic", which is
pronounced /n@'mAnIk/ or /nI'mAnIk/. Looking in the OED on-line, I
see only related words, "mna" and "mnam" (obscure and from Greek), and
"Mn" (the symbol for manganese).
There is a note on "mnemonic" about the pronunciation:
Documentary sources from the late 19th cent. onwards report wide
variation in the pronunciation of the first syllable of this word
(with either /mn-/ or /n-/ initially ...)
> Yes, and my naïve assumption was that the ps- and pn- loans were
> originally loaned with an initial /p/ into English, which later
> disappeared, probably at the same time as the /k/ in kn-.
>
> This may not be true. What do we know about the historical
> pronunciation of the Greek loans?
Apparently I don't know so much. The OED under "psyche" says:
E.D. (1909) also gives the pronunciation (ps{schwa}i·ki)
/{sm}psa{shti}ki{lm}/ for this entry and the partial pronunciation
(ps-) /ps-/ for many related words.]
I can't find anything similar for the pneuma- or ptero- words,
although "pnictide" and "pnicogen" both start with /pnI/.
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. [Robert R. Coveyou]
John Dean
> On 2009-08-24, John Dean wrote:
>
>> OED gives a pronounced 'p' for various of the 'ps' and 'pn' words.
>> Frinstance, for many of the 'pneu*' words the pronunciation of the
>> 'p' is given as a viable alternative to the 'n' pronunciation. And
>> words like 'pnyx' and 'pnictide' are given with the 'p' sounded as
>> the only way. Similarly, various of the 'ps*' words can have the 'p'
>> sounded.
>> As for 'ps', some of the 'psycho*' words have both pronunciations
>> and words like 'psyllium' only the 'p' sound.
>
> I found that for psycho- but I couldn't find it for pneuma-.
In OED2 it is in, eg,
pneumath�mia
pneumatize
pneumatology
--
John Dean
Oxford
Ildhund
> Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> Adam Funk wrote:
>
>>> That's what I thought. Are the mn- words actually pronounced
>>> /mn/ in German? (I can't recall ever hearing them.)
>>
>> According to the dictionary, yes. In practice, I don't know.
>> They are very few and rather specialized terms.
>
> The only one I could think of in English was "mnemonic", which is
> pronounced /n@'mAnIk/ or /nI'mAnIk/. Looking in the OED on-line,
> I see only related words, "mna" and "mnam" (obscure and from
> Greek), and "Mn" (the symbol for manganese).
>
> There is a note on "mnemonic" about the pronunciation:
>
> Documentary sources from the late 19th cent. onwards report wide
> variation in the pronunciation of the first syllable of this word
> (with either /mn-/ or /n-/ initially ...)
four variants.
--
Noel
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk wrote...
>> There is a note on "mnemonic" about the pronunciation:
>>
>> Documentary sources from the late 19th cent. onwards report wide
>> variation in the pronunciation of the first syllable of this word
>> (with either /mn-/ or /n-/ initially ...)
> ... for certain values of 'wide', presumably. I can only conceive of
> four variants.
When I copied and pasted, I left out the bits about vowel variations
in the first syllable because they weren't relevant to the topic.
Sorry to confuse!
--
History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of
urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.
(Thurgood Marshall)
Ildhund
> Ildhund wrote:
>> Adam Funk wrote...
[following para once snipped, now restored]
>>> The only one I could think of in English was "mnemonic", which
>>> is pronounced /n@'mAnIk/ or /nI'mAnIk/. Looking in the OED
>>> on-line, I see only related words, "mna" and "mnam" (obscure and
>>> from Greek), and "Mn" (the symbol for manganese).
>>>
>>> There is a note on "mnemonic" about the pronunciation:
>>>
>>> Documentary sources from the late 19th cent. onwards report
>>> wide variation in the pronunciation of the first syllable of
>>> this word (with either /mn-/ or /n-/ initially ...)
>
>> ... for certain values of 'wide', presumably. I can only conceive
>> of four variants.
>
>
> When I copied and pasted, I left out the bits about vowel
> variations in the first syllable because they weren't relevant to
> the topic. Sorry to confuse!
Not at all; I just found it odd that OED could report 'wide
variation' when I couldn't imagine more than four possible
pronunciations of /mne/. What is odder is that when I look the word
up in OED online, I'm told that I'm viewing a draft revision dated
March 2009, where only two pronunciations are given, neither of them
with an audible 'm,' and no sign of a note on them. 2nd ed. 1989
gives only one, so now I'm wondering where you're looking. Perhaps
my (Gloucestershire County Libraries) subscription gives me access
to less information than yours.
<aside> I remember rushing home to Mother at the age of about seven,
bursting to tell her that we'd learnt a Greek word at school. The
word was, of course, 'mnemonic,' and the one to be committed to
memory was 'Richard Of York Gained Battles In Vain.' </aside>
--
Noel
Joachim Pense
> On 2009-08-24, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>>> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>>> pronounced in French.
>>
>> It is also pronounced in German, and German doesn't have any native
>> words starting with ps- or pn- (or pt- or mn-) either; they're all
>> loans from Greek.
>
> That's what I thought. Are the mn- words actually pronounced /mn/ in
> German? (I can't recall ever hearing them.)
>
Yes, of course.
Joachim
Adam Funk
> pneumathæmia
Aha, I found a note there ("Med. Obs. rare").
> pneumatize
> pneumatology
But not in those ("Draft revision Mar. 2008" and "... Mar.2009" in the
on-line OED).
--
When Elaine turned 11, her mother sent her to train under
Donald Knuth in his mountain hideaway. [XKCD 342]
António Marques
> On 2009-08-25, António Marques wrote:
>
>> Adam Funk wrote:
>
>>> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>>> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>>> pronounced in French.
>>>
>>> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
>>> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
>>> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
>>> sense.
>>
>> I think the answer to your question is that it all depends. English
>> settled for not pronouncing most of those. Other languages with more
>> permissive phonetics may do it differently. I.e, this is not a matter of
>> english vs french.
>
> I agree. I framed the question in those terms because it occurred to
> me that way, since English and French are the languages I'm most
> familiar with. I'm interested in the general idea of more or less
> permissive phonetics.
>
> Is the situation in Portuguese roughly the same as in French?
Not necessarily. We do some automatic conversions* (ch > c/qu, th > t,
ph > f, y > i) but don't drop anything, so mn-, pn-, ps- and their ilk
always get fully pronounced. And they don't usually get an epenthetic
barred-i, which would be natural at first glance.
(*) With the odd exception such as colchicina or queratina (where the
regular forms would be colquicina and ceratina)
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk wrote...
["wide variation" in pronunciation of "mnemonic" according to the OED]
>> When I copied and pasted, I left out the bits about vowel
>> variations in the first syllable because they weren't relevant to
>> the topic. Sorry to confuse!
Here's the whole note (with the phonetic symbols changed to ASCII
IPA to the extent that I can):
N.E.D. (1907) gives the pronunciation as (nim{ohook}-nik)
/ni:'mAnIk/. Documentary sources from the late 19th cent. onwards
report wide variation in the pronunciation of the first syllable of
this word (with either /mn-/ or /n-/ initially, and with the vowel
realized as /i:/, /I/, /@/, or /E/)]
> Not at all; I just found it odd that OED could report 'wide
> variation' when I couldn't imagine more than four possible
> pronunciations of /mne/. What is odder is that when I look the word
> up in OED online, I'm told that I'm viewing a draft revision dated
> March 2009, where only two pronunciations are given, neither of them
> with an audible 'm,' and no sign of a note on them. 2nd ed. 1989
> gives only one, so now I'm wondering where you're looking. Perhaps
> my (Gloucestershire County Libraries) subscription gives me access
> to less information than yours.
Hmm ... it seems you have to click the "Etymology" button to view that
(misfiled?) note.
Ildhund
Aha! Etymology reveals all once again; I had been conceited enough
not to bother with it. Thank you for going to the trouble to
investigate.
--
Noel
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk wrote:
Interesting, thanks.
--
Nam Sibbyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla
pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: beable beable beable; respondebat
illa: doidy doidy doidy. [plorkwort]
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk wrote...
>> ["wide variation" in pronunciation of "mnemonic" according to the
>> OED]
>> Hmm ... it seems you have to click the "Etymology" button to view
>> that (misfiled?) note.
>
> Aha! Etymology reveals all once again; I had been conceited enough
> not to bother with it. Thank you for going to the trouble to
> investigate.
It's not obvious that you would click "Etymology" to see that note
about the history of the pronunciation. I saw it because I usually
look at the on-line OED with everything except "Date Chart" on.