Pronouncing your name in another language
John
which is not native to them. After several attempts at getting Latin Americans
to pronounce my name the way I pronounce it, I gave up. Now when I am there
and speaking Spanish, and someone asks me my name, I pronounce it the way
they do. Also, for me, putting on a Spanish accent is like wearing a heavy
overcoat. It is difficult to take it off and put it back on rapidly in the
middle of a sentence. Thus I usually do not switch back to a Midwestern
drawl just to pronounce my name.
I started thinking about this the other day while listening to National
Public Radio. There are two correspondents, Maria Hinojosa and Silvia
Beaujoli, who read their reports in nearly flawless American-accented English,
but then switch to Spanish and Italian respectively when they say their names.
Perhaps both women are using these pronunciations to create distinctive,
trademark signoffs ("...this is Silvia Beaujoli reporting from Rome."). But
the technique sounds rather contrived to me, especially Ms. Hinojosa's
guttural, phlegm-rumbling "j".
John
Insanity's Mistress
> I'm wondering how people pronounce their names when speaking a language
> which is not native to them. After several attempts at getting Latin Americans
> to pronounce my name the way I pronounce it, I gave up. Now when I am there
>
classes, and discovered several years later when I was in Belgium that it was
much easier to use the French pronunciation while speaking French. The only
problem I had was convincing people that I really don't mind it!
--Jane
John
>How does Ms Beaujoli pronounce her name in Italian, given that it is a French
>name? Does she actually pronounce it "the French way" (ie "bo-zho-li") or
>genuinely in some sort of Italian way (an Italian ignorant of French would
>probably say "be-a-u-io-li")?
Someone informed me that the name of the correspondent in question is
Poggioli. I had never seen her name in print before.
John
s...@ctdvx5.priv.ornl.gov
mo...@halcyon.com (Moosenose) writes:
> Along similar lines, how many people "translate" their names into the
> language they are speaking at the time? There's a version of my name,
> Paul, in many of the languages I've come across, and I tend to use that
> name/pronunciation when speaking that language. In German it becomes
> something like [powl], and in other languages it can become Paolo, Pablo,
> Pavel, Bulos, etc. etc.
I'd have to vote against this practice in most cases. If you meet someone
named Jose in the United States you're not going to call him Joe. I have a
friend named Santiago, and nobody calls him Saint James! On the other hand I
note that Chinese immigrants sometimes give themselves English names. For
example, I work with a guy named "Veung" and he calls himself Vince. Perhaps
because he found out that Veung was too hard for most people to pronounce.
By the way, does the Pope have an "official" name? Maybe this is a question for
soc.religion.catholic (if such a group exists). But every country seems to
translate his name into the local language - John Paul, Jan Pavel, Juan Pablo,
etc. (Hmmm, what do they do in Esperanto?). Perhaps the Latin translation
(Iannus ?) is the official one? Then why do you never hear it mentioned?
John
Pierre Jelenc
<s...@ctdvx5.priv.ornl.gov> wrote:
>
>By the way, does the Pope have an "official" name? Maybe this is a question for
>soc.religion.catholic (if such a group exists). But every country seems to
>translate his name into the local language - John Paul, Jan Pavel, Juan Pablo,
>etc. (Hmmm, what do they do in Esperanto?).
Johano Pa^ulo.
Proper names used to be translated much more frequently. Think of all the
kings and queens of various countries in your history books, for instance.
Presumably, in the case of the Pope, it is simply continuing a tradition
that is fading fast.
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc Being politically correct means always having
rc...@panix.com to say you're sorry.
Charles Osgood
http://www.columbia.edu/~pcj1/
Moosenose
(Paul Giaccone) wrote:
>
> How does Ms Beaujoli pronounce her name in Italian, given that it is a French
> name? Does she actually pronounce it "the French way" (ie "bo-zho-li") or
> genuinely in some sort of Italian way (an Italian ignorant of French would
> probably say "be-a-u-io-li")?
>
Her name is actually something like Poggioli. I only know this because she
gave a talk here in Seattle, though the price of tickets was too high for
me to attend. I think some English speakers may hear the unaspirated [p]
at the beginning of her name as [b].
--
Paul M. Beck mo...@halcyon.com
Information Highway Robber mo...@pacsci.org
---------------------------------------------------------------
Why not join the Mickey Moose Club? Just drop me a note reading, "Yes, gosh darn it, I'd like to join the Mickey Moose Club. Please sent me a membership card and handsome certificate, suitable for framing."
John E Koontz
|> How does Ms Beaujoli pronounce her name in Italian, given that it is a French
|> name? Does she actually pronounce it "the French way" (ie "bo-zho-li") or
|> genuinely in some sort of Italian way (an Italian ignorant of French would
|> probably say "be-a-u-io-li")?
I seem to recall something like Pogio`li. Maybe it was Bogio`li. At
any rate, I am startled, but not surprised, if you know what I mean,
to learn that it is Beaujolis.
----
John E. Koontz (koo...@bldr.nist.gov)
Disclaimer: Views and recommendations, express or implied, are my own, and
do not reflect the opinion or policy of my employers.
Daniel von Brighoff
When I studied Korean, I adopted a Korean name to avoid the awkwardsness
of being "Puriguhobu-ssi." One of the coolest things about writing one's
name in characters is that it has a distinct pronuciation in each of
the East Asian languages that uses them. In Mandarin, I'm Liang Dawen.
In Cantonese, Leong Daai-man. Japanese, Hashi Daimon, and so on.
Like Jane/Jeanne said, it does take some doing to convince native
speakers you really prefer the "nativised" version. I'd much rather adopt
a whole new name or nickname than have my original one deformed by the
phonotactics of another language.
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Daniel von Brighoff
>I also wonder what to do about the names of cities. I know a number of
>people who, speaking English, insist on saying "Budapesht" for the capital
>of Hungary. This seems odd to me, since the same people don't say "Moskva"
>for the capital of Russia, "Praha" for the capital of the Czech Republic,
>or "Veen" for the capital of Austria. English certainly has the right
>phonemes to approximate the native pronunciations of Vienna, Paris, Rome,
>Prague, and others. The use of "Budapesht" only comes across to me as an
>affectation. I note that all of my Hungarian relatives use the English
>pronunciation of Budapest when speaking English.
I agree it's something of an affectation, but it doesn't
bother that much--especially compared to "Barthelona" for "Barcelona"
(part of the reason that bothers me more is that I have more Catalan
friends than Castillian and I think of Barcelona as primarily a
Catalan city; English-speakers who say "Barthelona" are really fixing
what ain't broke).
I think the reason why people say "Budapesht," "Barthelona,"
"Madhreed" [Madrid], and "Paree," but not "Maskva," "Vien," or "Praha"
is quite simple: "Budapesht" et al. are quite easily perceived as "native"
pronunciation of the names. "Maskva," "Vien," etc. are different enough
from the common English forms to sound like entirely different names.
I'm reminded of the last time my grandparents were in German and couldn't
find Cologne. As they told it, there were lots of exits for some
place called "Koeln," but not one for "Cologne."
(They also figured, from the number of exits for it, that
"Ausfahrt" must be the biggest city in Germany, just as I used to
think that "Einbahnstrasse" snaked all over the city where I lived.)
Daniel von Brighoff
>In article <moose-11019...@pacsci-28.pacsci.org>,
> mo...@halcyon.com (Moosenose) writes:
>
>> Along similar lines, how many people "translate" their names into the
>> language they are speaking at the time?
>
>named Jose in the United States you're not going to call him Joe.
That should depend on his personal preference. It's a constant battle
for my friend Elisa to insist on the proper Castilian pronunciation of
her name. By contrast, both my friends named "Francisco" went by
"Frank" (which I always thought was unfortunate, but it never seemed
to bother them) and my sister's fiance is never "DaVEEDH" (his
father named him "David," a comparitively rare name in Spain, because
it was one of the few spelled identically in English and Spanish).
In general, though, my hispanic friends and acquaintances have kept
the original forms of their names (Alejo, Moises, Jaime, etc.) Some,
like Angel and Mireia, really had no other choice.
On the other hand, almost all of my East Asian friends have adopted
Christian names (most of them are Koreans, so the term is accurate).
Some of them also had no other choice: I think, for example, of a
Vietnamese man named "Phuc" who got sick of never being called by
his first name. He's called "Phil" now. ^_^
Most of my South Asia friends have also kept the original forms of
their names, but there is one prominent exception: my friend Ipsita
wanted a less-unusual form to use with shallow acquaintances (like
store clerks and pick-up artists). Her name means "desired one"
(I presume in Sanskrit) so she now has the alias "Desiree."
Pascal MacProgrammer
>By the way, does the Pope have an "official" name? Maybe this is a question for
>soc.religion.catholic (if such a group exists). But every country seems to
>translate his name into the local language - John Paul, Jan Pavel, Juan Pablo,
>etc. (Hmmm, what do they do in Esperanto?). Perhaps the Latin translation
>(Iannus ?) is the official one? Then why do you never hear it mentioned?
I remember watching the announcement of the new pope, and hearing the
name he had chosen for himself given as "Ioannes Paulus Secundus". That's
probably as official as it gets.
However, understand that for the most part, popes' names are the same
as the names of people in the Bible (plus some other words, like
"Pious"), and people will use the national-language forms of those names,
as found in the translations of the Bible that they use.
--
==----= Steve MacGregor {GCS$(AT) -d+ !H s:++ g++ p2+ au
([.] [.]) Phoenix, AZ a49 w+ v+* C+++ U P? !L N+++ !W
-----oOOo--(_)--oOOo---------------- M? po+(++) Y+ t-(+) 5++ j+ R(-)
%pbm++++$ G' tv++ b+++ !D B- e++ n+ h+ f+ r+>+++ n- %eo+++ y++++<->+++}
Paul Amblard
Edmund Grimley-Evans <et...@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>though it is difficult not to pronounce
>"Budapest" as "Budapest"
The French pronounce it in a way that Hungarian would write
bu(umlaut)dapeszt
The Hungarian pronounce it in a way that French would write
boudapecht Viszlat
--
Paul AMBLARD L.G.I. I.M.A.G. BP 53 F 38041 GRENOBLE Cedex 9
Tel (33) 76827212 bat. Ensimag bur. 302 Paul.A...@imag.fr
Edmund Grimley-Evans
> people who, speaking English, insist on saying "Budapesht" for the capital
> of Hungary. This seems odd to me, since the same people don't say "Moskva"
> for the capital of Russia, "Praha" for the capital of the Czech Republic,
> or "Veen" for the capital of Austria. English certainly has the right
> phonemes to approximate the native pronunciations of Vienna, Paris, Rome,
> Prague, and others.
This is not a good comparison, because only in the case of "Budapest" is
the written form identical. No one in their right mind is going to
pronounce "Vienna" as "Wien", though it is difficult not to pronounce
"Budapest" as "Budapest" if one is used to doing it that way in another
language. A better comparison would be with pronouncing "Paris" the
French way or "Hamburg" the German way; the latter is quite common among
Brits who know German, but I've never heard the former in serious use.
> The use of "Budapesht" only comes across to me as an
> affectation. I note that all of my Hungarian relatives use the English
> pronunciation of Budapest when speaking English.
People tend to overtranslate in foreign languages, e.g. Germans talking
about "Brunswick" when they mean "Braunschweig" and making English
listeners think they're talking about Canada instead of Germany. I have
also seen tourist guides in a number of German towns using totally
archaic and unknown English translations of German names, often without
even mentioning the German name so that the tourist is utterly confused
and can't find the place on any map or train timetable. I also remember
a brochure in English about public transport in a Dutch city that failed
utterly to give the most crucial information: the Dutch names of the
various types of transport so that the tourist could follow signposts
to them. And then there was the idiot in Brussels who said something to
me about "The Big Place". I suddenly understood what he meant about two
years later. If he had said "Square" instead of "Place" I probably still
would not have understood at the time ...
Ira Smailer
: In article <J8yYBWU...@delphi.com>, John <pad...@delphi.com> wrote:
: Along similar lines, how many people "translate" their names into the
: language they are speaking at the time? There's a version of my name,
: Paul, in many of the languages I've come across, and I tend to use that
: name/pronunciation when speaking that language. In German it becomes
: something like [powl], and in other languages it can become Paolo, Pablo,
: Pavel, Bulos, etc. etc.
You gotta be kidding. It is bad enough to have to endure how other
people butcher one's name, so why would one wish to join the butchers.
Take a look at my name. Seems like no problem, huh? And yet, if you use
ordinary rules of English pronunciation, you will have got neither
my first nor my last name right. Moreover, if you call me that, I won't
hear you, because I only react to my own name. Of course, it was a
bit hard to convince my teachers in school that I *was* paying attention,
and not day-dreaming or something...
: I also wonder what to do about the names of cities. I know a number of
: people who, speaking English, insist on saying "Budapesht" for the capital
: of Hungary. This seems odd to me, since the same people don't say "Moskva"
: for the capital of Russia, "Praha" for the capital of the Czech Republic,
: or "Veen" for the capital of Austria. English certainly has the right
: phonemes to approximate the native pronunciations of Vienna, Paris, Rome,
: Prague, and others. The use of "Budapesht" only comes across to me as an
: affectation. I note that all of my Hungarian relatives use the English
: pronunciation of Budapest when speaking English.
I think one should try to use the correct (local) pronunciation whenever
possible, and especially when speaking with a person from that country.
For example, old transliterations of "Beijing" are "Peking", and even
I cringe when I hear that, even though I'm not Chinese.
Ira
Ira Smailer
: In <1995Jan11...@ctdvx5.priv.ornl.gov> s...@ctdvx5.priv.ornl.gov writes:
: >friend named Santiago, and nobody calls him Saint James! On the other hand I
: >note that Chinese immigrants sometimes give themselves English names. For
: >example, I work with a guy named "Veung" and he calls himself Vince. Perhaps
: >because he found out that Veung was too hard for most people to pronounce.
Still, when you have to do with people with unusual (unusual for an
English speaker, that is) names, common courtesy should be to try
and get the name right. I'd ask how it is pronounced correctly, and
maybe have the guy demonstrate several times if really outlandish,
and also check back via "like this?"
Of course some people circumvent this whole problem by anglicizing
their own names, or picking an English first name. I guess it is up
to them, but personally I think one's name is part of oneself, so
I would stick to the name. Especially the last name.
: A common problem with immigrant kids from Asia is that they sometimes
: don't know when they're called on in class, not because of their
: English comprehension, but because their names are butched by the
: teacher. So some of the more experienced teachers would just spell out
: the names. Clearly, having an English name offers certain advantages.
: Another option is just to go by the initials; e.g., Y.S. Sun instead
: of Sun Yat-Sen (sp).
: Lastly, really, there are just too many consonants in Chinese that do
: not occurr in English. Also consider tones. And the romanization
: system.... I suppose English names become equally butched when
: transliterated into Chinese.
Heh. Definitely. Some languages "translate" foreign words by leaving
the writing (spelling) intact and maybe just tacking on a proper
grammatical ending. Other languages do it phonetically, and Chinese
is one of them. So then, when one sees the printed word, it is
sometimes next to impossible to guess what the heck it is supposed to mean.
But if you read it out loud, and listen to the sound, one may tumble
to what it is.
: Kevin
: .
Ira
Paul J. Kriha
[...]
> I think one should try to use the correct (local) pronunciation whenever
> possible, and especially when speaking with a person from that country.
> For example, old transliterations of "Beijing" are "Peking", and even
> I cringe when I hear that, even though I'm not Chinese.
>
> Ira
I hope you don't use old transliterations like "China"
or "Chinese" when you talk to people from ....,
oops I almost gave it away. :-)
Paul JK
s...@ctdvx5.priv.ornl.gov
> (They also figured, from the number of exits for it, that
> "Ausfahrt" must be the biggest city in Germany, just as I used to
> think that "Einbahnstrasse" snaked all over the city where
I don't understand German, but I have a feeling this is like a friend of mine
who went to Puerto Rico and was amazed at the size of the city of Salida, given
the number of exits for it between the airport and his hotel.
John
Ira Smailer
: >A common problem with immigrant kids from Asia is that they sometimes
: >don't know when they're called on in class, not because of their
: >English comprehension, but because their names are butched by the
: >teacher. So some of the more experienced teachers would just spell out
: >the names. Clearly, having an English name offers certain advantages.
: >
: >Another option is just to go by the initials; e.g., Y.S. Sun instead
: >of Sun Yat-Sen (sp).
: >
: >Lastly, really, there are just too many consonants in Chinese that do
: >not occurr in English. Also consider tones. And the romanization
: >system.... I suppose English names become equally butched when
: >transliterated into Chinese.
: Butched? You used it twice, so it's not a typo. Do you mean butchered?
No no no. To butcher means to kill, mostly animals, and usually
involving a fair amount of blood spurting. To butch means, well
you could argue that it is the same thing, because the end product
is remarkably similar, however, the means are far more drastic.
Mental cruelty and reckless disregard for people's dignity is
nothing to it. Umm, I get faint just thinking of the awful horror
of it all. In short, that's what happens to you when you get too
picky about people's spelling.
Ira
.
Patrick Chew
>The French pronounce it in a way that Hungarian would write
>bu(umlaut)dapeszt
^^
<sz> is [s], isn't is? as far as I can recall the equivalent to
the French <ch> is <s> in Hungarian orthography.
*shrug*
-Patrick
--
___________________________________________________________________
"Thought is the blossom; language the bud;
action the fruit behind it" - R.W. Emerson
Lee Rudolph
>: Butched? You used it twice, so it's not a typo. Do you mean butchered?
sma...@twain.oit.umass.edu (Ira Smailer):
>No no no. To butcher means to kill, mostly animals, and usually
>involving a fair amount of blood spurting. To butch means, well
>you could argue that it is the same thing, because the end product
>is remarkably similar, however, the means are far more drastic.
>Mental cruelty and reckless disregard for people's dignity is
>nothing to it. Umm, I get faint just thinking of the awful horror
>of it all. In short, that's what happens to you when you get too
>picky about people's spelling.
I rather liked the French anti-(Gulf War) poster I saw, sporting
the slogan "Ni Saddamisation, Ni Busherie".
Egads--this almost brings the thread back to the original subject.
Lee Rudolph
Timothy Miller
When speaking French, I pronounce my name /tim/ (with the t being
dental), rather than the usual /tIm/ (with the t being alveolar), quite
automatically, without even thinking about it.
It's difficult to switch accents in mid-sentence without stumbling.
Daniel von Brighoff
>In <1995Jan15.2...@midway.uchicago.edu> de...@ellis.uchicago.edu
>(Daniel von Brighoff) writes:
>
>
>>So when one encountres an American name with the element "stein,"
>>one never knows whether the bearer uses:
>>1) the Standard German pronunciation ([shtain])
>
>>6) an Americanised variant of this (likewise).
>
>>To be sure, certain variants (2 and 4b) are more common than
>>others, but the point is that even knowing the language of origin
>>may be of little help in divining someone's personal preference.
>
>Very nice examples indeed and a very nice smoke screen. It is clear
>to me that you wont to avoid the problem. The proof is that albeit I
>also mentioned Italians, you skipped that problem because there was not
>a plausible excuse for this kind of behavior.
I don't know Italian culture well enough to be able to explain their
motivations.
>
>>
>If I call
>>my friend David Wojechowski [vojexofski] instead of [woudzh@hauski]",
>>he won't recogise that I'm talking to him.
>
>He won't recognize because he never used the original form, which his
>ancestors were forced to abandon for the reasons, which I already
>mentioned. Besides, I did not write about such cases, but about
>instances of not using the original form while well knowing it.
>
>I'm sure that if Poland controlled all of Europe (an area smaller and
>encompassing less cultural diversity than the United States), the same
>problem would arise.
>
>You mentioned ignorance? Europe is not smaller than the United States
>and does not encompass less cultural diversity (what an idea?).
Europe (excluding the USSR and Turkey): 1.9 million sq. miles
USA 3.6 million sq. miles
Source: Funk and Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary (1977 ed.)
As for cultural diversity, there are first generation immigrants
in the US from *every country in the world*. They have all brought
their native cultures with them. Can Europe match that?
>"To control" -- this is the key/buzz-word. If you "control" you can do
>whatever you wish. The reason is not the large area and cultural
>diversity, but ignorance born of arrogance.
Untrue. There are always limits to government control, moreso under a
democratic system.
>You probably belong to those who think that everybody's name in Poland
>is Kowalski or sort of, in Germany Muller, and in Italy Rossi. Why it
>did not occur to you that there are Bernadotte's in Germany, Rosatis,
>Werners, Millers, Bardinis, Maurins, De Virions, Staniszkises,
>Tanianises, Zanussis, Chopins, Semeniuks and who-knows-what-else in
>Poland, Millers in Italy, Dunins in Greece and Buonapartes and Belmondos
>in France?
Who says it did not occur to me? After all, I know that the former
president of the German SDP was Oskar La Fontaine. The current French
Minister for Culture is Jack Lang. One of Catalonia's most reknown
writers is Joan Perucho (from Peruccio). I'm well aware of the
diversity of surnames in Europe. It still doesn't approach that of
the States, however, and if you doubt my word, go to a library and
compare phone books.
>As far as I know, the pronunciations of these names are very similar to
>originals even though decades or even centuries have passed since the
>ancestors of these people left their homelands and settled elsewhere.
Try my mother's family, for instance. They originated in Southern
France or Italy under the name "Cond'e" and came to Germany in the
16th century. Now they are called "Gund. And I've heard more
slaughtered Polish names in Germany then I think you would care to
know.
>It never occured to me or to anybody else to call one of the Warsaw
>University professors (Maurin) Ma-u-reen instead of More,(n) because
>this was the way he himself pronounced his surname. The decisive
>factor (ar least I think so) is _always_ the preference of the name's
>bearer.
That's exactly what I said! Please reread my previous posts before
'correcting' me again.
>What I was talking about was the problem of people _fully aware_ of the
>original pronunciation and name bearers' preferences but nevertheless
>trying to impose their own preferences on them, many times in very ugly
>manner and against those people express will. If you do not know the
>people preferences all you have to do is to ask them.
If that was your subject, you did not make yourself sufficiently clear.
You asked why Poles seemed to do a better job of pronouncing foreign
names than other peoples, including Americans. You're theory was that
they were more arrogant and ignorant than the Poles. I explained that,
at least in the case of America, much of this ignorance is understand-
able. Most people in this country do not know whether Albert Einstein
personally pronounced his surname [ainstain] or [ainshtain]. They
naturally prefer the former, more-Americanised variant, but would
use the latter if told it was correct.
There are several different subjects under discussion in this thread.
Please be quite explicit about which one you are addressing in any
given post.
>I do not believe that there are more than one dialectal forms of Jan
>(pr. Yan) and that this is a word too difficult for and Italian, German
>or American to pronounce.
'Jan' (pron. [dzh%n] is a common feminine name in the USA. Therefore,
Americans will be reluctant to apply this name to a man if they see it
written. However, nobody I knew ever had trouble remembering or
employing the pronunciation [jan] with my friend Jan Cerny once he
told them what it was.
'Jan' [jan] is a common German masculine name. I've never heard a
German mispronounce it.
I don't know what the Italians' problem with 'Jan' is.
>For me, personnally, Nguyen Hui Tong will be always Nguyen Hui Tong
>unless he will wish otherwise.
And likewise with every poster who has contributed to this thread.
However, if a Vietnamese-American asks me to say [win] or [wen]
instead of [ngwjen], I will accede to his wishes immediately.
Daniel von Brighoff
>Not so very long ago, de...@midway.uchicago.edu said...
>
>>One factor that complicates matters in the US is the existence of
>>a large pool of "naturalised" family names that are no longer pro-
>>nounced like their antecedents. One cannot describe these pronunci-
>>ations are wrong because, regardless of their origins, they are the
>>ones preferred by the bearers of the names themselves.
>
> And then there are the names that get changed by the US Department of
>Immigration as people enter the country.
And then there are names once changed by the D of I that have been
restored to their original forms. I think, for example, of one of
the co-authors of _The Book of Lists_, a Mr. Walleczynski, if I remem-
ber correctly. His father, also a co-author, still goes by the form
'Wallace.'
> A friend of mine had some trouble at Customs when visiting Ireland.
>His last name is "O'Green", and since that looks like an Irish name, but
>there's no such name in Ireland, they delayed him while they checked out
>his background, in case he was a terrorist trying to pass himself off as
>Irish. It's actually an American name, created when his grandfather
>immigrated from Denmark. Granddad's name was "0gren".
A co-worker of mine has the hobbitish surname "Oakleaf." It's an
anglicisation of 'Eklauf' perpetrated by her great-grandfather,
who was fleeing the authorities when he arrived on these shores. The
vast majority of Eklaufs in the States have kept the original spelling
if not the original pronunciation (something like ['eklWf] or ['eklWYf],
depending on where they're from).
Daniel von Brighoff
[four paragraphs deleted]
>And then there's the "if it's foreign, it must be Spanish" rule that
>results in Sarajevo being pronounced with a [h] in the middle ...
I read an interesting article in the book _The Reality of Linguistic
Rules_ (Philadelphia : J. Benjamins, 1994) about this phenomenon. It
was called "Systematic hyperforeignisms as maximally external evidence
for linguistic rules" (R.D. Aranda, et al.) and attempted to prove that
Spanish intonation as the first default for foreign names helped
explain the common English mispronunciations of Japanese and Hebrew
names. Full of nice examples and well worth reading.
Daniel von Brighoff
>On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Daniel von Brighoff wrote:
>>
>> Europe (excluding the USSR and Turkey): 1.9 million sq. miles
>> USA 3.6 million sq. miles
>> Source: Funk and Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary (1977 ed.)
>
>Asia there were also parts in Europe. You are excluding whole countries
>like Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova and all the Baltic states, and of course
>huge areas in Russia. I didn't think people there will approve of your
>definition of Europe.
>
>> As for cultural diversity, there are first generation immigrants
>> in the US from *every country in the world*. They have all brought
>> their native cultures with them. Can Europe match that?
>
>
>> --
>> Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
>> (de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
>> /____\ gegen die Kunst!
>
>Halldor Arnason
>Dept. of Civil Eng.
>University of Washington
Daniel von Brighoff
>In <1995Jan15.2...@midway.uchicago.edu> de...@ellis.uchicago.edu
>(Daniel von Brighoff) writes:
>>Actually, 'ala' + 'mann'. The double-l is a French innovation. The
>>source for the adjective 'allemand' is MHG 'alemant'.
>
>I picked the double-l form from a "Dictionary of the Italian Language"
>which explains in this way the origin of the name Alamanno (one l).
>Besides the German spelling is alle (with double-l). I do knot know the
>origin of the difference.
That is the modern German. Old High German has 'al' [OED, entry for
'Alemannic']. I've never seen a German spelling from any period with
a double-l. The Latin name, btw, is similarly 'Alemannia.'
>There are still Romance-speaking people living in the Balkan area
>(northern Greece and Macedonia) called "Vlach" (I have seen also the
>name Aromuni)
In English, 'Arumanians.'
Marek Konski
(Daniel von Brighoff) writes:
>Europe (excluding the USSR and Turkey): 1.9 million sq. miles
>USA 3.6 million sq. miles
>Source: Funk and Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary (1977 ed.)
On what grounds did you banish Russia from Europe?
Could you imagine how small would North America be without USA and
Canada?
It is clearly visible, that this is you who multiplies subjects
indefinitely.
>
Can Europe match that?
You measure the number of cultures by the number of the nations of
origin? Very strange an idea.
The population of the first generation immigrants is very small, as
compared to the rest of the USA, they did not bring the whole spectra of
their native cultures (among others because of the numbers), they lose
contact with their cultural enviroments to the point of abandoning their
languages in the second generation (the language is the primary vehicle
of culture), and they did not bring with them the written, spoken, and
material background of their native cultures.
In America these people mix with other groups and very often do not have
any contact, or have incidental, with people who came from the same
country.
The next generations mostly do not know anything about their countries
of origins, forget the cultures. Even if they know something it is just
the knowledge not the cultivation.
Many prerequisites of culture as judicial systems, geographical
environment, economical system are left behind them.
European and American cultural diversities are absolutly of different
kind and to compare them in this way does not make any sense.
America is a melting pot. What you see here is a homogenized American
culture containing elements of many cultures which influenced its
development with some pockets preserving _remnants_ of the cultures of
the countries of origin.
This diversity is of the same kind which exists between different
regions of any given European country. For that instance, there are many
regional groups in European countries who wear daily their folk
costumes, cultivate their specific arts, play their folk music in
churches and build their houses and churches in their particular
architectural style. These things are not present here (I am not
interested in singular cases), do not deceive yourself.
But this you can say about any other area in the world because they do
live in isolation. European cultures were also influenced by many other
cultural areas, but this not always can be translated in the number of
cultures present there.
You simply mix the number of sources of influence with the number of
cultures.
>
>Who says it did not occur to me?
At least you did not show it because you used all kinds of
self-justifications to show to me that in America people are in some
special sort of trouble while trying to honor somebody's name.
I tried to show that the problem is common and grossly exaggerated and
that elsewhere are many people who at least make their best to overcome
it.
It still doesn't approach that of
>the States, however, and if you doubt my word, go to a library and
>compare phone books.
Oh, it certainly does.
As for phone books, the explanation is above. This is the diversity of
surnames not of cultures.
Take a group of Americans having ancestors from a given country to that
country and you will see that they simply are Americans, nothing else.
>That's exactly what I said! Please reread my previous posts before
>'correcting' me again.
>If that was your subject, you did not make yourself sufficiently clear.
I think that I did, because I repeated this a couple of times. The
original name is the name of a given person, unless he changes it
himself.
I also noticed that people in some countries which consider themselves
to be more "advanced" than the others patronize people from "less
advanced" parts of the world and do with their names whatever they
please.
>You asked why Poles seemed to do a better job of pronouncing foreign
>names than other peoples, including Americans.
I never asked about Poles. I just used some examples known to me because
I do not have the habit of speaking in somebody else's name or of
supporting what I say with arguments which I would not be able to
verify.
>they were more arrogant and ignorant than the Poles.
This is your clever guess, not what I said. I would _never_ make such
crude and trivial a generalization.
I criticized certain, particular, habit of butchering people's names
without mercy and I called it insensitive and arrogant, born of
ignorance of other peoples cultures and achievements. I am very sorry
that I have to say this, but the level of the latter is awesome.
>
>There are several different subjects under discussion in this thread.
>Please be quite explicit about which one you are addressing in any
>given post.
Personal names pronunciation, of course and the explanations of doing
it wrong.
Do you wont it in smaller pieces?
>'Jan' (pron. [dzh%n] is a common feminine name in the USA. Therefore,
>Americans will be reluctant to apply this name to a man if they see it
>written. However, nobody I knew ever had trouble remembering or
>employing the pronunciation [jan] with my friend Jan Cerny once he
>told them what it was.
This time this is exactly what I said and you also culd read carefully
before you answer.
>'Jan' [jan] is a common German masculine name. I've never heard a
>German mispronounce it.
I wrote German just for the sake of example not to bash somebody in
particular, if you prefer I can write "Indonesian" or "Malagasy".
As for American Jan I state once again that I do not see any bigger
problem with Jan than with Maurin.
>
>I don't know what the Italians' problem with 'Jan' is.
The habit of "translating" every name which has some Christian source,
if they feel they can afford it. This is not only their problem (see
above).
>I will accede to his wishes immediately.
You will, but not everybody else and nevertheless you presented an army
of arguments for doing the opposite.
The examples you gave from Germany are of many different categories, as
in America. Many times people changed them themselves but many times no.
Sometimes they are not Slavic (not necessarily Polish) but German names
which originated from some Slavic root.
I was concerned only with an attitude of not honoring somebody's name
without any particular reason. I consider this habit bad regardless of
the nationality of the person who displays it.
I noticed that you suspect me of targeting some nationalities.
This is absolutely incorrect! I repeat once again that I had only and
exclusively certain kind of attitudes and reasoning in mind.
>
>--
> Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
> (de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
> /____\ gegen die Kunst!
>
Marek Konski
Marek Konski
writes:
>
>
>In article <3fc8bm$q...@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, Mar...@ix.netcom.com
(Marek Konski) writes:
>(...)
>>
>>And that's a problem. When I pronounce my first name, Americans
understand
Not this is not the problem. The problem is that you quote me out of
context and I would be really glad if you stopped to do that.
>Olivia, so I have to use Oliver.
You can do whatever you wish, I do not mind and am not interested in
your personal problems.
Marek Konski
>=======================================================================
PCP - Piotr C. Proszynski
Daniel von Brighoff <de...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>I still maintain: the very *best* manners demand that one accede to the
>addressees wishes, whether it coincides with the general principle of
>not translating or not. Not everyone envelopes her name with a
>sacred aura.
Seeing you use the feminine as your general pronoun in the preceding
sentence reminded me of something I posted just a few days ago advocating
just that, among other options; my train of thought followed the track,
and I was struck by the rest of the paragraph paralleling something else
from that post of mine - *best* manners IMO requiring the use of such
gendered pronouns as the addressee wishes to identify with, whether it
coincides with the general principle of sex-determination or not.
The train of thought rumbled on: when the addressee's wishes are not
known, or irrelevant, what then? I can advocate the use of
gender-non-specific pronouns, but it's rather more difficult to come up
with pronounciation-non-specific translations :).
This I suppose supports the position of going with the accepted usage in
a given language, no matter how badly it mangles the original or smacks
of linguistic imperialism. Alternatively, give everything neutral names
in Latin, or Esperanto :).
>> Deutschland
>> in English: Germany
>> in French: Allemagne
>> and in Czech: something like 'Nemecky'
>
>Nemecko (hacek over the first e) from a root meaning "mute, unable
>to speak" (because they couldn't speak Slavic).
Same as "Niemcy" in Polish, from "niemy" - "mute". Very interestingly,
the Danish/Norse word for Germany, "Tyskland", is also cognate with the
word "mute/quiet" ("tysk"). This is strange, because while Slavs might be
completely baffled by the sound of German, it's odd that anyone speaking
North Germanic languages would be. Perhaps they were simply vewy vewy
quiet as they rampaged around Europe in the Dark Ages...
It'd be nice to have a Danish speaker corroborate this, as mine is
getting rustier by the minute - perhaps I'm imagining this.
Peter "Not as abrasive as some other Poles, Daniel" Proszynski.
--
ppro...@reed.edu The sun is in the heart, and I am sending
CAVEAT LECTOR light and warmth -HNIA-
PCP - Piotr C. Proszynski
Halldor Arnason <harn...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>This is of course irrelevant since I'm neither Slavic nor a woman, but
>when I applied for a U.S. social security number I had to explain why my
>last name was not same as my father's nor my mother's, and why their name
>weren't the same either. So, there are those instances when people have
>to explain the origin of their names.
You're a Bjork, then? (An Icelander, that is :)
Question: what _other_ languages that have "last names" have them
different for the different sexes/marital statii/etc.? What is the
situation in Arabic, with "son of"/"grandson of"?
Daniel von Brighoff
[much about pronoun use deleted]
>>Nemecko (hacek over the first e) from a root meaning "mute, unable
>>to speak" (because they couldn't speak Slavic).
>
>Same as "Niemcy" in Polish, from "niemy" - "mute". Very interestingly,
>the Danish/Norse word for Germany, "Tyskland", is also cognate with the
>word "mute/quiet" ("tysk"). This is strange, because while Slavs might be
>completely baffled by the sound of German, it's odd that anyone speaking
>North Germanic languages would be. Perhaps they were simply vewy vewy
>quiet as they rampaged around Europe in the Dark Ages...
I don't know the origin of the Danish word 'tysk' meaning "mute," never-
theless I'm confident this is merely a phonetic coincidence. Scandanavian
'tysk', "German", is clearly a reflex of Germanic *theudisko-, though I
can't say whether it is a direct descendant of the Old Norse reflex or a
latter borrowing from German (almost asssuredly Low German).
Sorry for all the uncertainties in this post. A Norse historical dictio-
nary awaits me at work tomorrow.
>It'd be nice to have a Danish speaker corroborate this, as mine is
>getting rustier by the minute - perhaps I'm imagining this.
Given the way Danish is spoken (as their Germanic neighbors put it,
"with a warm potato in the mouth"), "mute," or at least "ununderstanda-
ble" would be a better description of them! ^_^
>
>Peter "Not as abrasive as some other Poles, Daniel" Proszynski.
Now, now, no sniping. I won't have it done in my name!
Jonathan Ryshpan
>>>I think one should try to use the correct (local) pronunciation whenever
>>>possible, and especially when speaking with a person from that country.
>>This often causes more harm than good, unless you're a phonetic wonder.
>>If you're talking to a Dane and mangle K0BENHAVN, she'll have no idea
>>what you're talking about. If you simply use its common English name,
>>Copenhagen, which she's been accustomed to since she started English
>>in school, you'll spare both of you a lot of trouble.
>What if I use another sort of its common name -- COPENHAGA, to which she
>has not been accustomed?
>I see that languages are equal but some of them tend to be more equal.
Certainly so! Here (in Oakland CA) English is more equal than any other
language. In Prague the most equal language would be Czech.
Jonathan Ryshpan j...@sirius.com
"And God fulfills himself in many ways
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world."
-- Tennyson
Lars Henrik Mathiesen
>>Very interestingly, the Danish/Norse word for Germany, "Tyskland", is
>>also cognate with the word "mute/quiet" ("tysk").
>I don't know the origin of the Danish word 'tysk' meaning "mute," never-
>theless I'm confident this is merely a phonetic coincidence.
It's not even that, since the Danish word is "tyst". It means hushed
or silent; mute is "stum".
Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) <tho...@diku.dk> (Humour NOT marked)
Bo Nettelblad
>>Same as "Niemcy" in Polish, from "niemy" - "mute". Very interestingly,
>>the Danish/Norse word for Germany, "Tyskland", is also cognate with the
>>word "mute/quiet" ("tysk"). This is strange, because while Slavs might be
>>completely baffled by the sound of German, it's odd that anyone speaking
>>North Germanic languages would be. Perhaps they were simply vewy vewy
>>quiet as they rampaged around Europe in the Dark Ages...
>
>I don't know the origin of the Danish word 'tysk' meaning "mute," never-
>theless I'm confident this is merely a phonetic coincidence. Scandanavian
>'tysk', "German", is clearly a reflex of Germanic *theudisko-, though I
>can't say whether it is a direct descendant of the Old Norse reflex or a
>latter borrowing from German (almost asssuredly Low German).
>
I am not Danish, but being a Swede, and since Danish and Swedish are
very similar, I can make a few comments:
The word fore 'silent' in Swedish (and I think in Danish too) is 'tyst'.
I do not know whether there exists some other form 'tysk' in Danish, but
I have never seen it. In Swedish, the word 'tysk' does not mean 'silent
or 'mute'
It is true that the word 'tysk', meaning 'German' has the same roots as
'Deutsch'. I am not sure, but I think that it is a direct descendant from
the common Germanic form, rather than a loan, as the common Germanic
þ (th, voiceless) has developed to a 't' in the Scandinavians languages,
whereas it has developed to a 'd' in German (also in low German).
Daniel von Brighoff
>In article <1995Jan19.0...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Daniel von Brighoff <de...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>I don't know the origin of the Danish word 'tysk' meaning "mute," never-
>>theless I'm confident this is merely a phonetic coincidence. Scandanavian
>>'tysk', "German", is clearly a reflex of Germanic *theudisko-, though I
>>can't say whether it is a direct descendant of the Old Norse reflex or a
>>latter borrowing from German (almost asssuredly Low German).
>
>I am not Danish, but being a Swede, and since Danish and Swedish are
>very similar, I can make a few comments:
>
>The word fore 'silent' in Swedish (and I think in Danish too) is 'tyst'.
>I do not know whether there exists some other form 'tysk' in Danish, but
>I have never seen it. In Swedish, the word 'tysk' does not mean 'silent
>or 'mute'
Not knowing Danish myself, I trusted the poster when he said 'tysk'
meant "mute, quiet" in Danish. I should have put more disclaimers
into my response (i.e. "Should there be a Danish word 'tysk'...").
Thanks for clarifying matters. Now I don't have to go to the
etymological Norse dictionary to prove my point after all. ^_^
Daniel von Brighoff
>Question: what _other_ languages that have "last names" have them
>different for the different sexes/marital statii/etc.? What is the
>situation in Arabic, with "son of"/"grandson of"?
In Korean and Irish (strange bedfellows, those), women did not tradi-
tionally take their husband's names after marriage. That is, if
Brid Ni Mhaille married Padraig O Cadhain, she did *not* become
Brid Ni Chadhain. One referred to her either by her maiden name
or as Bean ["wife of"] (Phadraig) Ui Chadhain. [Examples drawn
from O Siadhail's _Learning Irish_.]
The situation in Korean is parallel. Furthermore, like the Arabs,
the Koreans are also known to refer to a parent by the name of his
or her eldest son. So just as an Arab man might politely be called
Abu Rashid "father of Rasheed", a Korean woman might be called
Yengswu-ui emenim "Young-soo's mother." It gives one an appreciation
for how highly both cultures esteem male progeny!
Daniel von Brighoff
>Can someone clarify about this way to write Chinese? [Pinyin] I
>heard that the distinction p-b ( and likewise t-d, k-g etc,etc) in
>Chinese is not voiced-voiceless, but aspirated-non aspirated.
In Pinyin, yes. Keep in mind that there are many varieties of Chinese
and many ways of transcribing each of them. The commonly-used Yale
transcription of Cantonese also uses b,d,g, etc. for voicelesss con-
sonants.
>Yet I
>heard a Chinese say
>Beijing once with a sound that looked like a voiced b to my ears.
What language was he speaking? If it was English, he may well have
been anglicising the pronunciation. There was some discussion of this
earlier in the thread, i.e. not code-switching for the sake of
pronouncing a single word.
>There are
>many kinds of Chinese I suppose, does that explain it?
Not really. All the varieties of Chinese that I know of have either
a voiceless-voiceless aspirated (Mandarin, Cantonese) or voiced-
voiceless-voiceless aspirated (Hoklo) contrast in the stops. There-
fore, they should all be able to say 'Beijing' (although keep in mind,
this is the form only in Mandarin; Cantonese is Bakging [pakkeng], for
example).
If I posted anything incorrect, don't worry: Scott Horne will come
along and correct it. ^_^
Daniel von Brighoff
>Ruud Harmsen (rhar...@knoware.nl) wrote:
>The
>difficulty in reading Wade-Giles is that what would appear in Pinyin as
>"bi" and "pi" respectively (omitting tone markings for simplicity's sake),
>would appear in Wade-Giles as "pi" and "p'i". This could easily lead one
>to believe that the two initial sounds are both unvoiced, and that
>difference is one of aspiration.
As well it should, because that is the proper contrast. W-G was not
designed the way it was by accident. B,d,g,etc. are not used because
there are no voiced stops in Beijing Mandarin.
>This is also why Taipei is spelled as it is, despite the fact that the
>second syllable begins with a voiced, unaspirated sound.
Where did you learn this?
Ira Smailer
: when I applied for a U.S. social security number I had to explain why my
: last name was not same as my father's nor my mother's, and why their name
: weren't the same either. So, there are those instances when people have
Well, why?? I mean, seriously. I know that in some countries people
keep their names after marriage, and the child then gets one of the
surnames (mostly father's) by tradition or agreement. But you are
describing a different situation, which makes me curious :)
(I assume both your parents are your biological parents.)
Ira
: ---
Sean O Seaghdha
>This thread reminds me of the extremely annoying habit some
>newsreaders have of trying to de-Americanize foreign names without
>having the slightest idea of what their target should be.
>
>Several of the CNN newsreaders think they have solved the etiquette
>problem by tapping all their R's, but making no other changes. I've
>heard Buenos Aires pronounced [bweinos eiRiz] (where [R] is a single
>tap], for instance; and I can't imagine that pronouncing Herrera as
>[h@ReR@] (aspirated H, single tap for both R's, and reduced vowels)
>could be any less offensive to anyone than the normal English
>pronunciation.
>
>These R's sound even more ludicrous when inserted into a language that
>doesn't have such a sound, like French, Hebrew, or Chinese. During
>the recent Haitian crisis newsreader Chuck Roberts somehow managed to
>make French sound like a Slavic language.
>
>And then there's the "if it's foreign, it must be Spanish" rule that
>results in Sarajevo being pronounced with a [h] in the middle ...
>
A fairly common one here in Australia is pronouncing Beijing as "beige-ing",
perhaps by analogy with French?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
, , , m...@werple.mira.net.au
S e a n O S e a g h d h a sg...@cfs01.cc.monash.edu.au
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anthony Wong (or LM)
: the original forms of their names (Alejo, Moises, Jaime, etc.) Some,
: like Angel and Mireia, really had no other choice.
: On the other hand, almost all of my East Asian friends have adopted
: Christian names (most of them are Koreans, so the term is accurate).
: Some of them also had no other choice: I think, for example, of a
: Vietnamese man named "Phuc" who got sick of never being called by
: his first name. He's called "Phil" now. ^_^
Or wife of my former coworker, whose name is "Bich" (means
green stone). Her English name is quite different.
- Anthony Wong
aw...@hal.com