PRONUNCIATION OF SURNAME
EMD
surname. The name in question is Di Esel. I suspect this to be of Italian
origin because of the familiar 'Di' prefix, however I am not an expert on
these matters. Anyway, I believe that the correct Italian pronunciation
would sound like Dee Ezzel. Is this correct?
If it isn't of Italian origin, then where does it originate from and how is
it pronounced? Even though I have not been able to find one, any subsequent
translation that can be deciphered from this name would be appreciated.
Many Thanks In Advance,
Eric
EMD
John Woodgate
--
Regards, John Woodgate, Elector of Rayleigh, Grand Four-cusped Astroid of the
First Order of Magnitude. OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
***PLEASE DO NOT E-MAIL COPIES OF NEWSGROUP POSTS TO ME***
sal...@my-deja.com
"EMD" <emd...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, I have a question regarding the pronunciation of my great
grandfather's
> surname. The name in question is Di Esel. I suspect this to be of
Italian
> origin because of the familiar 'Di' prefix, however I am not an expert
on
> these matters. Anyway, I believe that the correct Italian
pronunciation
> would sound like Dee Ezzel. Is this correct?
Di Esel certainly doesn't look Italian. Maybe the immigration officers
mispelled his surname.
Anyway if it were indeed Italian it could be pronounced either
dee EH zel
or
dee eh ZEL
depending on the region.
Michele
Italy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paola Sorrentino
EMD <emd...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
> Hi, I have a question regarding the pronunciation of my great
grandfather's
> surname. The name in question is Di Esel. I suspect this to be of Italian
> origin because of the familiar 'Di' prefix, however I am not an expert on
> these matters. Anyway, I believe that the correct Italian pronunciation
> would sound like Dee Ezzel. Is this correct?
Could be a northern-Italian Di Esel, in which case your pronunciation is
right, but also a German Diesel? It would be very interesting if you could
find more info about your great-grandpa.
Paola
Maldras
>
>
>
Dominique Jonkers
Dominique
Bill Vaughan
>In article <7vokhp$a8c$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "EMD" <emd...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi, I have a question regarding the pronunciation of my great
>grandfather's
>> surname. The name in question is Di Esel. I suspect this to be of
>Italian
>> origin because of the familiar 'Di' prefix, however I am not an expert
>on
>> these matters. Anyway, I believe that the correct Italian
>pronunciation
>> would sound like Dee Ezzel. Is this correct?
>
>Di Esel certainly doesn't look Italian. Maybe the immigration officers
>mispelled his surname.
>Anyway if it were indeed Italian it could be pronounced either
> dee EH zel
>or
> dee eh ZEL
>depending on the region.
Hmmm... take out the space and it's "Diesel."
João Luiz
Anyway, an Italian surname would end in a vowel, wouldn't it?
JL
Konrad
João Luiz <JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote in message
3821044B...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE...
Not necessarily... in some parts of Italy, especially in the north-east,
many surnames end in "n" or "t".
Bye
Konrad
> JL
João Luiz
> > Anyway, an Italian surname would end in a vowel, wouldn't it?
>
> Not necessarily... in some parts of Italy, especially in the north-east,
> many surnames end in "n" or "t".
But then it is Southern Tirol, and there are lots of German surnames there.
(I think that if you are an Italian called Konrad you are from there.)
But is there any "typically italian" name ending in 'n' or 't'?
JL
Simon Palmer
Dominique Jonkers <dominiqu...@skynet.be> wrote...
> Isn't this a cousin of Reg Ular ?
>
> Dominique
Are you suggeting that Eric MD's real name is Jo Ker?
...
regards,
Simon
Paola Sorrentino
João Luiz <JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote in message
> But is there any "typically italian" name ending in 'n' or 't'?
Absolutely, lots of them, especially in the North-East and the province of
Veneto. I lived in that zone and I knew people called Coronin, Visintin,
Spagnol, Crevatin, Ruzzier, Muner, Marin, Peterzol, Petris, Agarinis etc
etc. , and all 100% Italian. And probably there is a Benetton store near you
(from the name of the founder). For the names ending in T you have to go to
the North-West, on the zone near to France. It's a Northern-Italian
phenomenon; in the South people tend to have names ending with vowels,
except for the old ex-nobiliary last names. (I have relatives called De
Riccardis and I knew some De Marinis, De Nittis, and Italy's most famous
comedian was an actual Neapolitan prince called Antonio De Curtis).
Paola
*who would have liked a De Something last name....snob snob snob*
===========================================
Paola Sorrentino
Translations EN, DE, NL > Italian
Nansenplaats 261
3069 CS Rotterdam
The Netherlands
tel-fax: 0031-(0)10-2207098
ICQ: 30948265
E-mail: pa...@sorrentino.nl.com
paolaso...@hotmail.com
Web:http://www.welcome.to/SorrentinoTranslations
==================================================
John Woodgate
>Di Esel certainly doesn't look Italian. Maybe the immigration officers
>mispelled his surname.
>Anyway if it were indeed Italian it could be pronounced either
> dee EH zel
>or
> dee eh ZEL
>depending on the region.
On that basis, the German possibility seems to loom closer! (;-)
And I don't mean 'Diesel', which surely isn't pronounced like that.
John Woodgate
<pa...@sorrentino.nl.com> inimitably wrote:
>Paola
>*who would have liked a De Something last name....snob snob snob*
I feel sure you could change your name to 'die Esel', if it would make
you any happier. I'm sure your friends would experience a short period
of mirth. (;-)
sal...@my-deja.com
"João Luiz" <JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote:
> Konrad schrieb:
>
> > > Anyway, an Italian surname would end in a vowel, wouldn't it?
> >
> > Not necessarily... in some parts of Italy, especially in the
north-east,
> > many surnames end in "n" or "t".
>
> But then it is Southern Tirol, and there are lots of German surnames
there.
Apparently, you know _nothing_ of Italy.
"North-east Italy" cannot be reduced to Suedtirol, which is just a tiny
fraction of it.
As Paola explained, most Venetian names end in a consonant. Also in my
area (Occitan Valleys of Piedmont) most surnames are Occitan and thus
end in a consonant too. Now Venetian and Occitan have nothing to do with
German; both are Romance languages.
Michele Saluzzo
Cuneo, Italy
EMD
pronounced Ay s'l or Ay z'l in German and not EH zel like this name.
Besides, the Esel part of the name Di Esel doesn't have to come from German
origins, as I believe there are several meanings in other languages. In my
country, the US, there are plenty of so-called impure Italian names like Di
Edwards or Di Erick. Anyway, alot of surnames, most certainly German
included, have obscene or ridiculous literal translations as well as no
meaning at all.
Sorry my friend, Mr. Woodgate, but you are misinformed :)
Thanks to all the helpful and informative discourse from those like Paola
Sorrentino and others. It has been interesting.
And to those of you who have the mental capacity of a squirrel, hence, no
respect for an individual's heritage, like Dominique Junkers and Simon
Palmer; GET A LIFE! Reg Ular - > HA HA!
Eric
John Woodgate <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:IP$Ru1AM5...@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
> <7vou1f$g0b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sal...@my-deja.com inimitably wrote:
> >Di Esel certainly doesn't look Italian. Maybe the immigration officers
> >mispelled his surname.
> >Anyway if it were indeed Italian it could be pronounced either
> > dee EH zel
> >or
> > dee eh ZEL
> >depending on the region.
>
> On that basis, the German possibility seems to loom closer! (;-)
>
> And I don't mean 'Diesel', which surely isn't pronounced like that.
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
<j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><7vou1f$g0b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sal...@my-deja.com inimitably wrote:
>>Di Esel certainly doesn't look Italian. Maybe the immigration officers
>>mispelled his surname.
>>Anyway if it were indeed Italian it could be pronounced either
>> dee EH zel
>>or
>> dee eh ZEL
>>depending on the region.
>
> On that basis, the German possibility seems to loom closer! (;-)
>
>And I don't mean 'Diesel', which surely isn't pronounced like that.
It is in Spanish ("motor diesel" /mo'tor 'djesel/).
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
m...@wxs.nl |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
Hans Peter Fischer
>
> Well, if you knew your German pronunciation, you would know that Esel is
> pronounced Ay s'l or Ay z'l in German and not EH zel like this name.
> Besides, the Esel part of the name Di Esel doesn't have to come from German
> origins, as I believe there are several meanings in other languages. In my
> country, the US, there are plenty of so-called impure Italian names like Di
> Edwards or Di Erick. Anyway, alot of surnames, most certainly German
> included, have obscene or ridiculous literal translations as well as no
> meaning at all.
>
> Sorry my friend, Mr. Woodgate, but you are misinformed :)
> Thanks to all the helpful and informative discourse from those like Paola
> Sorrentino and others. It has been interesting.
>
> And to those of you who have the mental capacity of a squirrel, hence, no
> respect for an individual's heritage, like Dominique Junkers and Simon
> Palmer; GET A LIFE! Reg Ular - > HA HA!
>
> Eric
Many people were called "die Esel" in Germany in the past. I think they
all emigrated some time in the 19th or early 20th century.
Hans-Peter Fischer
--
Visit http://www.hei-news.de/
sal...@my-deja.com
"EMD" <duk...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
> In my
> country, the US, there are plenty of so-called impure Italian names
> like Di
I believe Di Esel is one of them. Either mispelled by the immigration
officers, or an original "Diesel" somehow cut in two, or some other
mistake in transcribing the original name.
Michele
Cuneo
sal...@my-deja.com
> Many people were called "die Esel" in Germany in the past. I think
> they
> all emigrated some time in the 19th or early 20th century.
>
und nicht _die_ Esel.
João Luiz
Thanks for the names Paola. I had forgotten Benetton and also Elio de
Angelis, the formar F-I pilot.
> Paola
> *who would have liked a De Something last name....snob snob snob*
The comic thing is that such a particle means nothing in Brazil, but
every time I explained my name here, da Costa = von der Küste, I was
asked if I were noble. "Yes, noble of sentiments" was always my answer.
JL
João Luiz
>
> Well, if you knew your German pronunciation, you would know that Esel is
> pronounced Ay s'l or Ay z'l in German and not EH zel like this name.
I don't know how you are representing the sounds here, but the form over
the ^^ is how I would pronounce Esel. The second 'e' is clearly pronounced,
the first one a long e, like "1.7 e of emergency together". (This might
have been the most ridiculous pronounciation explanation on the net.) :-))
JL
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
João Luiz <JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote:
Well. typically Venetian anyway: Manin, Saragat, Bressan (who plays
for Fiorentina and scored an impossible goal against Barcelona the
other night).
Coby
Paola Sorrentino
> >Paola
> >*who would have liked a De Something last name....snob snob snob*
> I feel sure you could change your name to 'die Esel', if it would make
> you any happier. I'm sure your friends would experience a short period
> of mirth. (;-)
Mirth? Mirth? Pray, what is? I live in Rotterdam, Holland now......if I want
to see some mirth again, I must open my Collins Dictionary and go to M...
Paola
*no offense for any Dutch translators in here.....*
Simon Palmer
[snip serious stuff - it's been posted at least twice anyway, so you've a
good chance of finding it elsewhere]
>
> And to those of you who have the mental capacity of a squirrel, hence, no
> respect for an individual's heritage, like Dominique Junkers and Simon
> Palmer; GET A LIFE! Reg Ular - > HA HA!
>
Oh dear, another sense of humour failure, but I am indebted to you for
nurturing my tiny intellect - of the many things I do not know, one is that
squirrels are too stupid to repect each other's heritage.
Really though, I don't mean to speak for Dominique, but perhaps we both
suspected you were trolling. It is done here (slt) occasionally - e.g.
'Please translate this 7000 word file on bananas and e-mail it to me
tomorrow at idont...@all.com'
This also happens to be quite a friendly ng where atrocious one-liners are
bounced back and forth ad nauseum. :-)
regards,
Simon
John Woodgate
<pa...@sorrentino.nl.com> inimitably wrote:
>Mirth? Mirth? Pray, what is? I live in Rotterdam, Holland now......if I want
>to see some mirth again, I must open my Collins Dictionary and go to M...
Vrolijkheid, lustigheid.
John Woodgate
>Is this true or are you just joking? Ich dachte, man sagte _der_ Esel,
>und nicht _die_ Esel.
If you don't have a 'die Esel' you never get a 'das Eselchen'. (;-)
Hans Peter Fischer
>
> > Many people were called "die Esel" in Germany in the past. I think
> > they
> > all emigrated some time in the 19th or early 20th century.
> >
> und nicht _die_ Esel.
>
> Cuneo
"Die Esel" is plural in this case, and the story is of course true. I
heard it from a guy named Joe King in a pub in Heidelberg. Knowing that
his beer was sour and that he was about to die he even handed over to me
the complete documentation about how "die Esel" gained world domination
and even extended their influence into space. So I'm particularly well
informed.
Toby OCM
to the people who make suggestions (i.e. JW)? The Esel part *could* be
German, and the current pronunciation is no indication, since the original
pronunciation may ahve become Italianised over the years. The fact that you
don't like the implication is not something for which you should blame other
people.
On a historical note, a lot of people in Europe only adopted regular
surnames when they were forced to register under Napoleon's rule. In
Holland and Belgium, many people gave themselves names like
"Bird-droppings" (I recently came across a Mr Vogelpoep) and - I am sure -
"Donkey". Their descendants live with their misplaced sense of humour to
this day. Possibly one of your ancestors did the same, and the German
derivation *is* correct.
As for Dominique and Simon's little sideline: firstly, wind-ups like
"DiEsel" have been known to appear in this NG before. Secondly, if you
going to flame people for having "no
respect for an individual's heritage", you should be very careful you don't
descend to their level. Dominique's surname - and a noble one which I
assume she bears with pride and would like to see spelt correctly - is
Jonkers, not Junkers.
Regards,
Toby
Please reply to the NG, rather than my e-mail (since I visit my mailbox
infrequently).
Read the SLT FAQs at www.vivamus.dircon.co.uk/sltfaq
-----------------------------------------------
"Speak roughly to your little boy, and beat him when he sneezes ..."
EMD wrote in message <7vtsvn$6g$1...@newsmonger.rutgers.edu>...
>Well, if you knew your German pronunciation, you would know that Esel is
>pronounced Ay s'l or Ay z'l in German and not EH zel like this name.
>Besides, the Esel part of the name Di Esel doesn't have to come from German
>origins, as I believe there are several meanings in other languages. In my
>country, the US, there are plenty of so-called impure Italian names like
Di
>Edwards or Di Erick, Di John, etc. Anyway, alot of surnames, most certainly
>German
>included, have obscene or ridiculous literal translations as well as no
>meaning at all.
>
>Sorry my friend, Mr. Woodgate, but you are misinformed :)
>Thanks to all the helpful and informative discourse from those like Paola
>Sorrentino and others. It has been interesting.
>
Toby OCM
John Woodgate wrote in message ...
><7vuc0h$1tj$1...@freyja.bart.nl>, Paola Sorrentino
><pa...@sorrentino.nl.com> inimitably wrote:
>>Mirth? Mirth? Pray, what is? I live in Rotterdam, Holland now......if I
want
>>to see some mirth again, I must open my Collins Dictionary and go to M...
>
>Vrolijkheid, lustigheid.
Being a bit literal-minded, aren't we John. He meant that the only place he
will see any mirth is in his dictionary, Rotterdam being anti-mirth central.
Since he translates Dutch, I also imagine he's got a big dictionary of his
own.
Paola Sorrentino
John Woodgate <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >Mirth? Mirth? Pray, what is? I live in Rotterdam, Holland now......if I
want
> >to see some mirth again, I must open my Collins Dictionary and go to M...
>
> Vrolijkheid, lustigheid.
Uh? Did I catch the legendary John Woodgate not understanding a joke, or was
this an example of such clever, witty answer that I failed to understand his
own joke myself?
Paola
*long time since she wrote any useful message on this newsgroup*
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Toby OCM <to...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Is there any particular reason why, having asked for help, you are then rude
>to the people who make suggestions (i.e. JW)? The Esel part *could* be
>German, and the current pronunciation is no indication, since the original
>pronunciation may ahve become Italianised over the years. The fact that you
>don't like the implication is not something for which you should blame other
>people.
>
>On a historical note, a lot of people in Europe only adopted regular
>surnames when they were forced to register under Napoleon's rule. In
>Holland and Belgium, many people gave themselves names like
>"Bird-droppings" (I recently came across a Mr Vogelpoep) and - I am sure -
>"Donkey". Their descendants live with their misplaced sense of humour to
>this day. Possibly one of your ancestors did the same, and the German
>derivation *is* correct.
Furthermore, Central European Jews were not required to have hereditary
surnames until emancipation, which took place at different times in dif-
ferent states throughout the 19th century. In some places, corrupt of-
ficials demanded bribes for better-sounding surnames or simply amused
themselves by assigning insulting surnames. "Esel" was one of their
favourites. (Many of these changed their surnames at the next opportun-
ity, but by no means all.)
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
John Woodgate
>He meant that the only place he
>will see any mirth is in his dictionary, Rotterdam being anti-mirth central.
>Since he translates Dutch, I also imagine he's got a big dictionary of his
>own.
Well, at least I didn't think Paola was a man! (;-)
John Woodgate
<pa...@sorrentino.nl.com> inimitably wrote:
>Uh? Did I catch the legendary John Woodgate not understanding a joke,
Yep.
MIKE CLARK
frequently in northern Italy without going anywhere Sud Tirol - my name's
not Konrad, and I'm obviously not Italian either, but have lived here for
long enough to know.
Mike Clark
PS I'm Scottish, but my surname doesn't start with "Mac", nevertheless I
wouldn't say it was atypical....
João Luiz ha scritto nel messaggio
<3821A5E3...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE>...
>Konrad schrieb:
>
>> > Anyway, an Italian surname would end in a vowel, wouldn't it?
>>
>> Not necessarily... in some parts of Italy, especially in the north-east,
>> many surnames end in "n" or "t".
>
>But then it is Southern Tirol, and there are lots of German surnames there.
>(I think that if you are an Italian called Konrad you are from there.)
>
>But is there any "typically italian" name ending in 'n' or 't'?
>
>JL
Toby OCM
;-@ (egg on face)
Regards,
Toby
Please reply to the NG, rather than my e-mail (since I visit my mailbox
infrequently).
Read the SLT FAQs at www.vivamus.dircon.co.uk/sltfaq
-----------------------------------------------
"Speak roughly to your little boy, and beat him when he sneezes ..."
John Woodgate wrote in message ...
><3822f...@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>, Toby OCM <to...@yahoo.co.uk>
>inimitably wrote:
>>He meant that the only place he
>>will see any mirth is in his dictionary, Rotterdam being anti-mirth
central.
>>Since he translates Dutch, I also imagine he's got a big dictionary of his
>>own.
>
>Well, at least I didn't think Paola was a man! (;-)
John Woodgate
inimitably wrote:
>PS I'm Scottish, but my surname doesn't start with "Mac", nevertheless I
>wouldn't say it was atypical....
No, you would indeed seem 'odd or unusual' if you called yourself 'Mark
Atypical'.
Eddy
> >und nicht _die_ Esel.
>
No, here is the full story:
A) Traditional (my) German:
- der Esel: singular, male or you don't care
- die Eselin: singular, female
- die Esel: plural, male and/or female
- die Eselinnen: plural, females only
B) New German:
- der Esel: sing., male
- die Eselin: sing., female
- die Esel: pl., male
- die Eselinnen: pl., female
- die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
joke): pl., male and/or female
Hans-Peter Fischer
--
Freedom for Raoul Wuethrich (11)!
Visit http://www.hei-news.de/
Peter T. Daniels
>
> <7vvr6g$dem$2...@fe1.cs.interbusiness.it>, MIKE CLARK <mcl...@rimini.com>
> inimitably wrote:
> >PS I'm Scottish, but my surname doesn't start with "Mac", nevertheless I
> >wouldn't say it was atypical....
>
> No, you would indeed seem 'odd or unusual' if you called yourself 'Mark
> Atypical'.
Monty Python stopped being produced nearly 30 years ago ...
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> John Woodgate wrote:
> >
> > <7vukme$j5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sal...@my-deja.com inimitably wrote:
> > >Is this true or are you just joking? Ich dachte, man sagte _der_ Esel,
> > >und nicht _die_ Esel.
> >
> > If you don't have a 'die Esel' you never get a 'das Eselchen'. (;-)
>
> No, here is the full story:
>
> A) Traditional (my) German:
> - der Esel: singular, male or you don't care
> - die Eselin: singular, female
> - die Esel: plural, male and/or female
> - die Eselinnen: plural, females only
>
> B) New German:
> - der Esel: sing., male
> - die Eselin: sing., female
> - die Esel: pl., male
> - die Eselinnen: pl., female
> - die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
> joke): pl., male and/or female
>
humour. Or at least that they can't understand the subtleties of British
humour.
You've also proved that you're blind, since John signalled the joke
clearly with a smiley :-D.
--
eo'c
Bettina Price
Einde O'Callaghan wrote in message <3824885C...@planet-interkom.de>...
|Eddy schrieb:
|>
|> John Woodgate wrote:
|> >
|> > <7vukme$j5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sal...@my-deja.com inimitably wrote:
|> > >Is this true or are you just joking? Ich dachte, man sagte _der_ Esel,
|> > >und nicht _die_ Esel.
|> >
|> > If you don't have a 'die Esel' you never get a 'das Eselchen'. (;-)
|>
|> No, here is the full story:
|>
|> A) Traditional (my) German:
|> - der Esel: singular, male or you don't care
|> - die Eselin: singular, female
|> - die Esel: plural, male and/or female
|> - die Eselinnen: plural, females only
|>
|> B) New German:
|> - der Esel: sing., male
|> - die Eselin: sing., female
|> - die Esel: pl., male
|> - die Eselinnen: pl., female
|> - die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
|> joke): pl., male and/or female
|>
|I'm afraid you've proved once again that Germans have no sense of
|humour. Or at least that they can't understand the subtleties of British
|humour.
|
Oooh, that's fightin' talk where I come from, Einde, which curiously happens
to be Germany, as well. Don't come crying to me if you ever need some new
comedy material.
And anyhow, John's joke wasn't subtle. What he wanted to say that if you
only have an "Esel" and no "Eselin" you don't get any "Eselchen", but "die
Esel" is the plural without any gender. A native speaker is a lot more in
tune with these nuances, making the joke a lot less obvious. I had to read
it twice to understand what John was trying to say. (After all, the plural
could just be all male donkeys...)
As Pitt the Younger was wont to say, pooh to you, with nobs on :-b.
Bettina
--
Bettina Cornelia Price
bet...@pappnase.demon.co.uk
Technical translations Eng > Ger, tourist brochures only when desperate
Company motto: I can do waffle in my sleep
Susanne Starke-Perschke
>Date: Sat, 06 November 1999 02:58 PM EST
>Message-id: <3824885C...@planet-interkom.de>
wrote:
>Eddy schrieb:
>>
>> John Woodgate wrote:
>> > If you don't have a 'die Esel' you never get a 'das Eselchen'. (;-)
>>
>> No, here is the full story:
[snip]
>> - die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
>> joke): pl., male and/or female
>>
>I'm afraid you've proved once again that Germans have no sense of
>humour. Or at least that they can't understand the subtleties of British
>humour.
I'm afraid in this case it's you who didn't get it. Though it is hard to get, I
admit. "Eddy" himself intended to make a joke. The joke is hidden in the "die
EselInnen" (with a capital I in the middle). It's an allusion to "non gender
specific language". In German, we have "der Lehrer" (m) and "die Lehrerin" (f).
In order to avoid gender specific nouns, some people write "der/die LehrerIn"
with that capital I in the middle. The "joke" is that
a) you don't do that in the plural forms
b) "Esel" and "Eselin" in German are derogative nouns; so, "Eddy" is suggesting
that people who try to avoid gender specific language are "Esel".
I for one don't consider that to be amusing, but I'm fairly sure "Eddy" got
John's joke and wanted to top it.
Gruesse aus Duisburg
Susanne
John Woodgate
wrote:
>John Woodgate wrote:
>>
>> <7vukme$j5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sal...@my-deja.com inimitably wrote:
>> >Is this true or are you just joking? Ich dachte, man sagte _der_ Esel,
>> >und nicht _die_ Esel.
>>
>
>No, here is the full story:
>
>- der Esel: singular, male or you don't care
>- die Eselin: singular, female
>- die Esel: plural, male and/or female
>- die Eselinnen: plural, females only
What do you mean by 'No'? to get a 'das Eselchen (which I admit I
guessed) you need zwei Esel = 'die Esel'.
Robert Brady
>- die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
>joke): pl., male and/or female
The reformed spelling for german has medial capital letters? How common is
this?
--
Robert
Peter T. Daniels
-Innen goes back years before the Reform.
John Woodgate
<bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk> inimitably wrote:
>And anyhow, John's joke wasn't subtle. What he wanted to say that if you
>only have an "Esel" and no "Eselin" you don't get any "Eselchen", but "die
>Esel" is the plural without any gender.
But the context surely indicates one of each? No?
> A native speaker is a lot more in
>tune with these nuances, making the joke a lot less obvious. I had to read
>it twice to understand what John was trying to say. (After all, the plural
>could just be all male donkeys...)
Not really, Auntie, because then my post would be utterly pointless,
instead of only almost.
Dave Timpe
| In article <7vtsvn$6g$1...@newsmonger.rutgers.edu>,
| "EMD" <duk...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
| > In my
| > country, the US, there are plenty of so-called impure Italian names
| > like Di
| > Edwards or Di Erick, Di John, etc.
|
| officers, or an original "Diesel" somehow cut in two, or some other
| mistake in transcribing the original name.
It could be worse. In Lansing, Michigan there is (or was) a restaurant run
by a George Papavlahodimitrikopolos whose family name was just Kopolos
before they left Greece. Evidently the immigration officials were trying to
get the family's last name down and asked the immigrant (whether it was
George or someone else in his family) what his father's name was, and he
responded by saying "My father is the bastard Dimitri Kopolos" and that
became his legal name. Anyone who could spell it right got a free meal
(limit one per customer, of course).
The rest of the family changed their name to Vine, but George kept his so he
could have the longest name in the phonebook. Then there was the last name
in the book, Zeke Zzypt (also found in the Detroit book on occasion), which
I suspect was concocted for the purpose.
--
Dave Timpe
davetimpe at cybrzn dot com
João Luiz
>
> In sci.lang Eddy <edi...@hei-news.de> wrote:
> >- die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
> >joke): pl., male and/or female
>
> The reformed spelling for german has medial capital letters? How common is
> this?
It is not reformed spelling, just a political correctness thing that was
intended to make things gender neutral, in the line of e.g. chairperson
instead of chairman, and that ends up giving gender an importance.
It is now quite common -and for someone like me, who has Portuguese as
mother lqanguage, it feels totally stupid.
JL
Bettina Price
Peter T. Daniels wrote in message <3824B7...@worldnet.att.net>...
|Robert Brady wrote:
|>
|> In sci.lang Eddy <edi...@hei-news.de> wrote:
|> >- die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
|> >joke): pl., male and/or female
|>
|> The reformed spelling for german has medial capital letters? How common
is
|> this?
|
IIRC, to the seventies when it became illegal to specify the gender of
applicants you wanted in a job-ad. People looked for a shorthand that
included both genders without giving one or the other visual or grammatical
dominance, and since, say, "Schüler(in)" makes the female look like an
afterthought in brackets, someone came up with "SchülerIn" (but you wouldn't
have found this in job-ads in serious newspapers). At least at the
University of Hamburg it was also used for the plural, so we had thinks like
a StudentInnenversammlung, etc.
Greetings,
Bettina Price
John Woodgate wrote in message ...
|<bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk> inimitably wrote:
|>And anyhow, John's joke wasn't subtle. What he wanted to say that if you
|>only have an "Esel" and no "Eselin" you don't get any "Eselchen", but "die
|>Esel" is the plural without any gender.
|
|But the context surely indicates one of each? No?
No, not necessarily. Just translate it straight into English: Without
donkeys, there wouldn't be any little donkeys. Doesn't knock me flat, either
:-(.
|> A native speaker is a lot more in
|>tune with these nuances, making the joke a lot less obvious. I had to read
|>it twice to understand what John was trying to say. (After all, the plural
|>could just be all male donkeys...)
|
|Not really, Auntie, because then my post would be utterly pointless,
|instead of only almost.
Well, that's why I got it the second time I read it (which isn't a record
for one of your posts, BTW ;-)). But I really wasn't posting to have a go at
one of your jokes (they are, after all, the light of my otherwise dim life.
Honest.). I just get so annoyed at racial stereotyping. The amount of
pressure it puts on you poor Brits that all your jokes are supposed to be
brilliantly funny, sophisticated and subtle must have you tearing your hair
out at times. I'm so glad I've got an excuse for my dullness.
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> Robert Brady wrote:
> >
> > In sci.lang Eddy <edi...@hei-news.de> wrote:
> > >- die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
> > >joke): pl., male and/or female
> >
> > The reformed spelling for german has medial capital letters? How common is
> > this?
>
> -Innen goes back years before the Reform.
The "In" and "-Innen" endings are used in left-liberal and Green
political circles and have been used for a number of years. This usage
is not, however, part of the Rechtschreibereform (Spelling Reform) and
is not included in dictionaries or guides to German usage. Many people
find this usage quite controversial, even more controversial than the
RSR, which is still producing lots of discussion and argument. If you
can understand German, you will find extensive discussion of the RSR
(and occasionally of the use of "-In" and "-Innen") in the newsgroup
de.etc.sprache.deutsch.
--
eo'c
Susanne Starke-Perschke
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> schreibt:
>RSR, which is still producing lots of discussion and argument.
Could you please enlighten me: what's the meaning of "RSR"?
Susanne
Susanne Starke-Perschke
Price" <bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk> schreibt:
>StudentInnenversammlung, etc.
>
Nowadays, they call it "Studierendenversammlung". :-)
Gruesse aus Duisburg
Susanne
Susanne Starke-Perschke
<rwb...@ecs.soton.ac.uk> schreibt:
>The reformed spelling for german has medial capital letters? How common is
>this?
>
No, the reformed spelling *does not* allow for capital letters in the midth of
the word !!!
The so called "Binnenmajuskel" has to do with political correctness, as Joao
Luiz pointed out. How common it is? Well, feminists and some left wing people
use it profusely, mostly in letters (very often), in brochures (often) and in
_their_ journals (often). It is _not_ used in the vast majority of books, nor
in the major journals (as, for example, DIE ZEIT).
I for one don't like this "der/die LehrerIn", but mostly for language reasons.
It looks too clumsy to me. And it becomes even more clumsy if you have
subordinate clauses:
"Der/die LehrerIn, der/die die Klassenfahrt betreut, muss immer seinen/ihren
Personalausweis dabeihaben." Arrggh.
I try to avoid gender specific language by using plural forms which are not
gender specific, e.g.: "Die Vorgesetzten" rather than "Der/Die Vorgesetzte".
But, obviously, that's not always possible.
Gruesse aus Duisburg
Susanne
Eddy
>
> <3824181D...@hei-news.de>, Eddy <edi...@hei-news.de> inimitably
> wrote:
> >John Woodgate wrote:
> >>
> >> <7vukme$j5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sal...@my-deja.com inimitably wrote:
> >> >Is this true or are you just joking? Ich dachte, man sagte _der_ Esel,
> >> >und nicht _die_ Esel.
> >>
> >> If you don't have a 'die Esel' you never get a 'das Eselchen'. (;-)
> >
> >No, here is the full story:
> >
> >A) Traditional (my) German:
> >- der Esel: singular, male or you don't care
> >- die Eselin: singular, female
> >- die Esel: plural, male and/or female
> >- die Eselinnen: plural, females only
>
> What do you mean by 'No'? to get a 'das Eselchen (which I admit I
> guessed) you need zwei Esel = 'die Esel'.
Sorry. It was the indefinite article that confused me. I thought "_a_
'die Esel'" was one.
Hans-Peter Fischer
--
Visit http://www.hei-news.de/
Eddy
>
> John Woodgate wrote in message ...
> |<941921747.23442.0...@news.demon.co.uk>, Bettina Price
> |<bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk> inimitably wrote:
> |>And anyhow, John's joke wasn't subtle. What he wanted to say that if you
> |>only have an "Esel" and no "Eselin" you don't get any "Eselchen", but "die
> |>Esel" is the plural without any gender.
> |
> |But the context surely indicates one of each? No?
>
> No, not necessarily. Just translate it straight into English: Without
> donkeys, there wouldn't be any little donkeys. Doesn't knock me flat, either
> :-(.
Even worse than that, a literal translation would give:
"Without _a_ donkeys, there wouldn't be any little donkeys." (which I
admit was too subtle for me)
John Woodgate
That explains everything. Please be assured that I have never assumed
that you have blonde plaits and a hat with horns. (;-)
John Woodgate
wrote:
>"Without _a_ donkeys, there wouldn't be any little donkeys." (which I
>admit was too subtle for me)
Oops! That 'a' shouldn't have been there. Of course, I believe without a
moment's hesitation that its presence toadstool really did confuse you.
Bettina Price
John Woodgate wrote in message ...
|<bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk> inimitably wrote:
|>I just get so annoyed at racial stereotyping.
|
|That explains everything. Please be assured that I have never assumed
|that you have blonde plaits and a hat with horns. (;-)
Hoyoto-ho :-).
Christof Kuhn
> Could you please enlighten me: what's the meaning of "RSR"?
Offensichtlich "Rechtschreibreform".
Herzliche Grüße, Christof
---
Christof Kuhn
Inst. f. Angewandte Geologie,
Univ. f. BoKu Wien, Austria
h944...@edv1.boku.ac.at
http://homepage.boku.ac.at/h9440283/index.htm
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> Einde O'Callaghan wrote inmessage <3824885C...@planet-interkom.de>...
> |Eddy schrieb:
> |>
> |> John Woodgate wrote:
> |> >
> |> > <7vukme$j5i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, sal...@my-deja.com inimitably
> wrote:
> |> > >Is this true or are you just joking? Ich dachte, man sagte _der_
> Esel,
> |> > >und nicht _die_ Esel.
> |> >
> |> > If you don't have a 'die Esel' you never get a 'das Eselchen'.
> (;-)
> |>
> |> No, here is the full story:
> |>
> |> A) Traditional (my) German:
> |> - der Esel: singular, male or you don't care
> |> - die Eselin: singular, female
> |> - die Esel: plural, male and/or female
> |> - die Eselinnen: plural, females only
> |>
> |> - der Esel: sing., male
> |> - die Eselin: sing., female
> |> - die Esel: pl., male
> |> - die Eselinnen: pl., female
> NOT a
> |> joke): pl., male and/or female
> |>
> |humour. Or at least that they can't understand the subtleties of
> British
> |humour.
> |
>
> happens to
> be Germany, as well. Don't come crying to me if you ever need some new
> comedy material.
>
> you only
> have an "Esel" and no "Eselin" you don't get any "Eselchen", but "die
> Esel" is
> with these
> nuances, making the joke a lot less obvious. I had to read it twice to
> understand what John was trying to say. (After all, the plural could
> just be all
> male donkeys...)
>
should have put quotation marks around the word "subtleties" too, since
I also thought it was a fairly cheap shot. (Sorry, John)
I have been around this newsgroup long enough to know that you are
German, Bettina, even if you're relatively atypical name didn't alert me
to the fact. You have also been helpful to me in the past, for which I
am most grateful.
Seriously though, having lived here in Germany (in the East) for many
years I am well aware of a rich comic tradition, which I find very
amusing and every bit as subtle as the much vaunted British tradition.
I find national stereotypes are often offensive and being Irish I have
myself suffered offence because of hidden and often unconscious
assumptions based on that fact. So apologies for any offence caused by a
throwaway remark that had even less potential humorous content than
John's original witticism. (Sorry again, John)
Pax?
--
eo'c
Peter T. Daniels
>
> <3825A6AA...@hei-news.de>, Eddy <edi...@hei-news.de> inimitably
> wrote:
> >"Without _a_ donkeys, there wouldn't be any little donkeys." (which I
> >admit was too subtle for me)
>
> Oops! That 'a' shouldn't have been there. Of course, I believe without a
> moment's hesitation that its presence toadstool really did confuse you.
> (;-)
Were you locked in a room with nothing but Monty Python tapes as a
yout'?
Natarajan Krishnaswami
> Were you locked in a room with nothing but Monty Python tapes as a
> yout'?
NOBODY expect the Spanish interdentals^WInquisition!
<N/>
--
you have been evaluated. you have a negative reference count. prepare
to be garbage collected. persistence is futile.
-- Erik Naggum
João Luiz
>
> Im Artikel <382545EE...@planet-interkom.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
> <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> schreibt:
>
> >RSR, which is still producing lots of discussion and argument.
>
Rechtschreibreform.
JL
John Woodgate
<einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> inimitably wrote:
>I also thought it was a fairly cheap shot. (Sorry, John)
Never knowingly undersold, that's me!
Susanne Starke-Perschke
<h944...@edv1.boku.ac.at> schreibt:
> what's the meaning of "RSR"?
>
>Offensichtlich "Rechtschreibreform".
Wow, danke.
Gruesse aus Duisburg
Susanne
Bettina Price
Einde O'Callaghan wrote in message <382600F7...@planet-interkom.de>...
|I'm afraid I didn't use enough smileys in my last post. And I suppose I
|should have put quotation marks around the word "subtleties" too, since
|
|German, Bettina, even if you're relatively atypical name didn't alert me
|to the fact. You have also been helpful to me in the past, for which I
|am most grateful.
|
|Seriously though, having lived here in Germany (in the East) for many
|years I am well aware of a rich comic tradition, which I find very
|amusing and every bit as subtle as the much vaunted British tradition.
D'you like Loriot, then?
|I find national stereotypes are often offensive and being Irish I have
|myself suffered offence because of hidden and often unconscious
|assumptions based on that fact. So apologies for any offence caused by a
|throwaway remark that had even less potential humorous content than
|John's original witticism. (Sorry again, John)
|
|Pax?
Sure, no problem. I'm glad I didn't get my big flamethrower out ;-).
Einde O'Callaghan
>
> Susanne Starke-Perschke schrieb:
> >
> > Im Artikel <382545EE...@planet-interkom.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
> > <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> schreibt:
> >
> > >RSR, which is still producing lots of discussion and argument.
> >
>
> Rechtschreibreform.
>
Thanks, João. But, Susamnne, I did explain what RSR meant about 3 or 4
lines earlier that the use you quote.
--
eo'c
Susanne Starke-Perschke
>Date: Mon, 08 November 1999 08:05 AM EST
>Message-id: <3826CAB3...@planet-interkom.de>
>
wrote
> But, Susamnne, I did explain what RSR meant about 3 or 4
>lines earlier that the use you quote.
>
Yes, sorry, didn't recognize that. Since your post was written in English, I
thought this abbreviation was an English one. I didn't even consider it might
be German. :-)
Gruesse aus Duisburg
Susanne
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton
>B) New German:
>- der Esel: sing., male
>- die Eselin: sing., female
>- die Esel: pl., male
>- die Eselinnen: pl., female
>- die EselInnen (yes, with a capital "i" in the middle - this is NOT a
>joke): pl., male and/or female
also EselIn: sing., male and/or female (this form has no definite
article assigned and can only be used in contexts which do not require
one -- for example, "Suche EselIn für ...").
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <nospam...@gmx.li>
Hans Peter Fischer
Sounds logical, but also somewhat odd. Perhaps because in contexts like
"Suche ... für ..." you mostly do care about sex?
Anyway, if you seriously asked me whether the singular form was common
I'd firmly say no.
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton
<Hans-Pete...@voith.de> wrote:
>Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton schrieb:
>> also EselIn: sing., male and/or female (this form has no definite
>> article assigned and can only be used in contexts which do not require
>> one -- for example, "Suche EselIn für ...").
>
>Sounds logical, but also somewhat odd. Perhaps because in contexts like
>"Suche ... für ..." you mostly do care about sex?
No -- job adverts tend to use that sort of language, too.
>Anyway, if you seriously asked me whether the singular form was common
>I'd firmly say no.
I think it's silly, but I've seen it around. I also think that
lower-case "frau" as a personal pronoun is silly.
Simon Buck
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton <nospam...@gmx.li> wrote:
>I think it's silly, but I've seen it around. I also think that
>lower-case "frau" as a personal pronoun is silly.
>
Hey! I invented that - has it caught on?
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton <nospam...@gmx.li> wrote:
><Hans-Pete...@voith.de> wrote:
>
>>Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton schrieb:
>>> also EselIn: sing., male and/or female (this form has no definite
>>> article assigned and can only be used in contexts which do not require
>>> one -- for example, "Suche EselIn für ...").
>>
>>Sounds logical, but also somewhat odd. Perhaps because in contexts like
>>"Suche ... für ..." you mostly do care about sex?
>
>No -- job adverts tend to use that sort of language, too.
>
>>Anyway, if you seriously asked me whether the singular form was common
>>I'd firmly say no.
>
>lower-case "frau" as a personal pronoun is silly.
Ich auch. Um voellig neutral zu sein, muss mensch ein Neutrum gebrauchen;
ding sollte "ding" sagen.
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Bettina Price
Simon Buck wrote in message <80bide$l8o$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
|In article <38290829...@news.nikoma.de>,
|Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton <nospam...@gmx.li> wrote:
|>I think it's silly, but I've seen it around. I also think that
|>lower-case "frau" as a personal pronoun is silly.
|>
|
|Hey! I invented that - has it caught on?
No, you didn't. It's been around at least a couple of decades; mostly found
in feminist literature.
Greetings
Bettina
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>Um voellig neutral zu sein, muss mensch ein Neutrum gebrauchen;
>ding sollte "ding" sagen.
People already use "mensch" for that purpose occasionally. Haven't
come across "ding" yet, though.
"mensch" is gender-neutral, if not species-neutral. Maybe "wesen"?
"ding" sounds too inanimate.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>
>>Um voellig neutral zu sein, muss mensch ein Neutrum gebrauchen;
>>ding sollte "ding" sagen.
>
>People already use "mensch" for that purpose occasionally. Haven't
>come across "ding" yet, though.
I remember suggesting "mensch" to an acquaintance of mine, but she pro-
tested on the basis of its derivation from 'Mann'.
>"mensch" is gender-neutral, if not species-neutral. Maybe "wesen"?
>"ding" sounds too inanimate.
Wie du auch sagst, altes Ding!
John Woodgate
<de...@midway.uchicago.edu> inimitably wrote:
>Ich auch. Um voellig neutral zu sein, muss mensch ein Neutrum gebrauchen;
>ding sollte "ding" sagen.
But doesn't a ding have a dong?(;-)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> <aggW3.78$j4.1619@uchinews>, D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
> <de...@midway.uchicago.edu> inimitably wrote:
> >Ich auch. Um voellig neutral zu sein, muss mensch ein Neutrum gebrauchen;
> >ding sollte "ding" sagen.
>
> But doesn't a ding have a dong?(;-)
Now you're degenerating from Monty Python to Two Ronnies, or even Benny
Hill, territory.
Simon Buck
Bettina Price <bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>No, you didn't. It's been around at least a couple of decades; mostly found
>in feminist literature.
I was expecting to provoke that sort of response in fact, but the
Germans and Austrians I first tried it on had never heard it before, as
hadn"t I.