Learning pronunciation
Mike Robinson
obvious next step is to learn the kana so I can start learning the
readings in book 2. With the experience of completing book 1, learning to
read and write the kana was very easy, but pronunciation is a big problem.
I've heard enough spoken Japanese that I can tell the difference between
long/short vowels/consonants, す vs つ, etc., and when I read the kana I
can "hear" a reasonably accurate pronunciation in my head, but when I try
to say it it comes out all wrong.
Especially difficult sounds are "う", which I think is completely unlike
English, and "お" which I can't seem to avoid pronouncing as a diphthong.
"ふ" is probably the hardest of all the kana, as both the vowel and
consonant are very unlike English. Various other sounds are also
different enough from English to be confusing.
I'm aware of pitch accent/vowel devoicing/etc., but I think it's more
important to get the basic unmodified vowel/consonant sounds right before
worrying about these things. I don't have access to a native speaker, but
I've found many native speaker recordings on the web, and I have a
microphone to record myself for comparison.
Any advice for learning pronunciation? Sound recordings only don't tell
you how to move your mouth, and while I've found written descriptions of
correct mouth position, diagrams or videos would be useful.
Ben Bullock
"Mike Robinson" <bl...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.25....@example.invalid...
> I've recently completed Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" book 1, so the
> obvious next step is to learn the kana so I can start learning the
> readings in book 2.
What an unusual order of learning!
> With the experience of completing book 1, learning to
> read and write the kana was very easy,
My teacher says that kana are the hardest thing to write correctly.
> but pronunciation is a big problem.
> I've heard enough spoken Japanese that I can tell the difference between
> long/short vowels/consonants, す vs つ, etc., and when I read the kana I
> can "hear" a reasonably accurate pronunciation in my head, but when I try
> to say it it comes out all wrong.
How do you know it's coming out wrong though?
> Any advice for learning pronunciation? Sound recordings only don't tell
> you how to move your mouth, and while I've found written descriptions of
> correct mouth position, diagrams or videos would be useful.
If you can find it, the following book is excellent:
Japanese Pronunciation guide for English Speakers
Authors Yoshiko Fujito
Eiko Nakano
Cyndee Seton
Publisher Bonjinsha
http://books.sljfaq.org/books.cgi?book_id=326
Unfortunately the book doesn't have an ISBN number and there are no tapes
associated with it.
There is another book in the category:
http://books.sljfaq.org/books.cgi?category_id=46
I've never seen that so I can't comment.
Anyway, very difficult to learn pronunciation without some feedback from a
native speaker or other good teacher.
--
sci.lang.japan FAQ: http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/afaq.html
Ben Finney
> I've recently completed Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" book 1, so
> the obvious next step is to learn the kana so I can start learning
> the readings in book 2.
I'm boggled that you would slog all the way through learning the
jouyou kanji meanings without ever learning the kana. I use a modified
version of Heisig's RtK:I method to learn the kanji-to-meaning
associations, and it's working just as well as he promises; but I
wouldn't recommend anyone simply put the rest of their Japanese
learning on indefinite hold until completing a kanji course.
> With the experience of completing book 1, learning to read and write
> the kana was very easy, but pronunciation is a big problem. I've
> heard enough spoken Japanese that I can tell the difference between
> long/short vowels/consonants, す vs つ, etc., and when I read the
> kana I can "hear" a reasonably accurate pronunciation in my head,
> but when I try to say it it comes out all wrong.
Nothing can substitute for access to native speakers pronouncing the
words. Either a live NSJ to converse with (first preference), or a
Japanese-language radio station (or weekly program, or Internet
broadcast, or whatever). Listen often, and imitate the sounds. They're
of a much narrower range than the sounds one needs for English, so you
should have little trouble; it's merely a matter of practice and
verification against the real thing.
--
\ "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm for a day. Set a |
`\ man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life." -- |
_o__) John A. Hrastar |
Ben Finney
Sean
>
> Especially difficult sounds are "う", which I think is completely unlike
> English, and "お" which I can't seem to avoid pronouncing as a diphthong.
> "ふ" is probably the hardest of all the kana, as both the vowel and
> consonant are very unlike English. Various other sounds are also
> different enough from English to be confusing.
ふ Purse your lips as if you are just about to whistle or to kiss
someone. Say your ふ. That will be pretty close. Now tone down the
pursing just a tad. That'll be closer.
>
> I'm aware of pitch accent/vowel devoicing/etc., but I think it's more
> important to get the basic unmodified vowel/consonant sounds right before
> worrying about these things. I don't have access to a native speaker, but
> I've found many native speaker recordings on the web, and I have a
> microphone to record myself for comparison.
>
> Any advice for learning pronunciation? Sound recordings only don't tell
> you how to move your mouth, and while I've found written descriptions of
> correct mouth position, diagrams or videos would be useful.
--
Always be sincere, but never be serious.
Allan Watts
Kevin Wayne Williams
> Any advice for learning pronunciation? Sound recordings only don't tell
> you how to move your mouth, and while I've found written descriptions of
> correct mouth position, diagrams or videos would be useful.
One tip that no-one else provided: it isn't necessary (or even
particularly desirable) to move your lips when speaking Japanese. If you
work on keeping your lips still, it will help reduce the amount of
swoopiness in your vowels.
KWW
Bart Mathias
I had debated with myself about commenting on Sean's comment, which was
right ahead of yours in my listing.
I would have said, had I decided not to bother, that I was very
impressed early on at the sight of people saying ふ without noticeable
lip movement, and apparently imitated it myself the next 53 years. (The
friction, when I say it, seems evenly distributed among my glottis,
teeth and lips.)
Bart
John J. Chew III
Kevin Wayne Williams <kww.n...@verizon.nut> wrote:
>One tip that no-one else provided: it isn't necessary (or even
>particularly desirable) to move your lips when speaking Japanese.
The first thing I told my (Japanese) aunt when she decided to study
French was that you can't speak proper Parisian French without moving
your lips like a fish. I hope some day she decides to study Italian,
so I can give her advice about hand gestures.
John
--
John Chew (poslfit on MD) * jjc...@math.utoronto.ca * http://www.poslfit.com
Sean
> I had debated with myself about commenting on Sean's comment, which was
> right ahead of yours in my listing.
>
> I would have said, had I decided not to bother, that I was very
> impressed early on at the sight of people saying ふ without noticeable
> lip movement, and apparently imitated it myself the next 53 years.
> (The friction, when I say it, seems evenly distributed among my
> glottis, teeth and lips.)
>
> Bart
I think that's what I was sort of getting at with the "tone down the
pursing and it'll be closer" thing.
Bart Mathias
> In article <12hg174...@news.supernews.com>,
> Kevin Wayne Williams <kww.n...@verizon.nut> wrote:
>
>>One tip that no-one else provided: it isn't necessary (or even
>>particularly desirable) to move your lips when speaking Japanese.
>
>
> The first thing I told my (Japanese) aunt when she decided to study
> French was that you can't speak proper Parisian French without moving
> your lips like a fish. I hope some day she decides to study Italian,
> so I can give her advice about hand gestures.
That was the hard thing about first semester French. I would practice
about an hour, usually right before class, and my mouth would be so sore
and tired!
Have you ever watched the 外人 喉自慢 shows they used to have on TV
around New Years?
Bart
Craig Welch
> If you can find it, the following book is excellent:
> Japanese Pronunciation guide for English Speakers
It pops up on eBay from time to time.
--
Craig
Chris Kern
If you can get your hands on a copy of the CD-ROM for Japanese: The
Spoken Language volume 1 (which is *not* the same as the online audio
files), that has a lot of pronunciation exercises and also allows you
to record your voice and then hear it in comparison with the model.
You have chosen a very unusual way to approach Japanese; even if you
complete book 2 you will still not be able to read Japanese without
learning the grammar and the vocabulary. It might be good to work
with a normal textbook in addition to volume 2 of RTK. Japanese: The
Spoken Language may actually be quite suitable for you in this
situation since you're pursuing the written symbols on your own --
however, at some point you will still need to start practicing
actually *reading* things. You won't, unfortunately, be able to
finish book 2 of RTK and then just immediately pick up a newspaper and
read it fluently.
-Chris
Phil Yff
>
> Any advice for learning pronunciation? Sound recordings only don't tell
> you how to move your mouth, and while I've found written descriptions of
> correct mouth position, diagrams or videos would be useful.
A couple of simple observations.
First, try to get access to video of people singing in Japanese. Pay
particular attention to how the lips are shaped when voicing the vowels.
For example, you will see a significant rounding of the lips when voicing
the vowel 'o' much more so than when one does so with the equivalent
English 'o'. Conversely, note the significant lack of rounding when
voicing the vowel 'u' as opposed to an English speaker using approximately
the same sound in English.
Second, pay attention to Japanese who are relatively fluent English
speakers in English but speak with a Japanese accent. For example, an
English speaker would immediately sense an oddity when the Japanese counts
one, two, three. The lack of diphthongs in Japanese causes equivalent
vowels to have a much different sound. Listening to a Japanese speaking
English can give you insight into the intricacies of pronunciation that you
cannot get from simply listening to Japanese speak Japanese. I'm sure you
will be careful not to give offense. The Japanese learning English are in
the same position as you are learning Japanese.
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
Considering the way you have approached your studies, I recommend ,Kanji
from the Start: A Comprehensive Japanese Reader" (Paperback) by Martin Lam
(Author), Kaoru Shimizu as a logical next step. It will allow you to
integrate the kanji you have learned into regular sentence structure.
Phil Yff
Phil Yff
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:10:05 +0100, Mike Robinson
> <bl...@example.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>>Any advice for learning pronunciation? Sound recordings only don't tell
>>you how to move your mouth, and while I've found written descriptions of
>>correct mouth position, diagrams or videos would be useful.
>
> Visit...
> ftp://streaming-ftp.it.ohio-state.edu/audio/jpn09su03/
> and download the file tree. It is the audio from Eleanor Jorden's
> "Japanese: The Spoken Language." (This is a legal download.)
>
> Also, you can do an inter-library loan and get the 90-lesson
> Pimsleur Japanese CDs. These also are bootlegged and warez'ed out
> on various file sharing services and here on Usenet under the
> alt.binaries category. You'll get nearly 45 hours of pronunciation
> where you can practice talking without moving your lips.
Nevertheless, I recommend if you are going to use "Japanese: The Spoken
Language" as your text that you buy the accompanying VHS tapes and CD-ROM.
Phil Yff
Carmediem45
> In article <12hg174...@news.supernews.com>,
> Kevin Wayne Williams <kww.n...@verizon.nut> wrote:
>> One tip that no-one else provided: it isn't necessary (or even
>> particularly desirable) to move your lips when speaking Japanese.
>
> The first thing I told my (Japanese) aunt when she decided to study
> French was that you can't speak proper Parisian French without moving
> your lips like a fish. I hope some day she decides to study Italian,
> so I can give her advice about hand gestures.
>
> John
John,
I hope that when your aunt tackles my native tongue, my both spoken and written Japanese will be at least decent ;o).
Alberto,
Italy.
(About to set up a blog exclusively devoted to Japanese things, especially, not only at all, Italian language, civilization, people and Italy related.)
またねえ。。。