Colloidal silver generator?
wronga...@att.net
I have read a few articles that suggest drinking
a solution of silver and water cures many medical problems,
and the solution can be made with just a couple silver electrodes
in distilled water using a constant current of around 1 mA for
a couple hours.
Is this just a quack idea, or does it have some benefit?
How much current is needed, for how much time, for optimum
results, and how do you determine the end of the process
when enough silver is disolved in the water, and it's time
to take a drink?
-Bill
WDino
water to be conductive.
My swimming pool has a silver and copper ion generator. It has a constant
current generator attached to two electrodes in the pump filter housing. For our
12 metre pool we use a current of about 100mA.
The copper ions stop any algae forming and the silver kills any bacteria or
viruses. Tests indicate that it works very well.
I would assume that a similar principle would apply to drinking water ionisers
as well.
Note that this ionisation system has been around since Roman times. They used to
place a copper and a silver coin in the bottom of each of their urns of drinking
water to keep them fresh and pure. It worked well.
Rheilly Phoull
"WDino" <nog...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:rYs1e.13722$C7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> It will not work that way with distilled water. Any electrolysis requires
the
> water to be conductive.
> My swimming pool has a silver and copper ion generator. It has a constant
> current generator attached to two electrodes in the pump filter housing.
For our
> 12 metre pool we use a current of about 100mA.
> The copper ions stop any algae forming and the silver kills any bacteria
or
> viruses. Tests indicate that it works very well.
>
> I would assume that a similar principle would apply to drinking water
ionisers
> as well.
>
> Note that this ionisation system has been around since Roman times. They
used to
> place a copper and a silver coin in the bottom of each of their urns of
drinking
> water to keep them fresh and pure. It worked well.
>
dimensions please ?
--
Regards ..... Rheilly Phoull
big...@meeow.co.uk
Firstly, depsite all the garbage on the net for and against it, it
works very well as a topical antibiotic and antifungal, and systemic
antibiotic. It might or might not do other things, it is also claimed
it kills viri, but I simply have no data on that. Its most noticeable
features are its speed of action, ability to tackle (other-) antibiotic
resistant bacteria, flawless safety record, low cost, and instability.
One problem with cs is there is so much junk written about it that its
most difficult to get anything sensible to read. The other problem is
it has been the focus of companies of questionable legality, and in
many minds the substance has become associated with the business
practice.
The 3rd problem is that much of the shop sold cs is not cs at all.
The 4th is that it is unstable, so you need to make it yourself on
site, keep it in the dark in the fridge, and use it within 5 days.
How to make it:
2 pure silver electrodes (many silver coins are not pure silver), say 1
to 2" discs
distilled water in a glass bowl
apply 9v dc to the electrodes via a current limiting R of 2.
2k
Let it work for 5 hours
before use it is necessary to remove any silver particles, as silver is
a heavy metal. Put 2 layers of toilet paper in a teastrainer or
similar, pour enough cs through it as you need (a good gulp twice a day
for systemic antibiotc use).
Use only glass in contact with cs, dont put spoons into it to get it
out etc. Other items in contact with cs cause rapid deterioration, so
can only be used at time of use. This is why you dont filter the lot
then store.
How does this work with distilled water? Distilled water is not
perfectly non-conductive, it is merely low conduction. Expect a
variable starting curent of maybe 5-15uA, and finishing in the region
of 30-60uA.
Toxicity: no known toxicity. Silver is a heavy metal, but a non
problematic one, ie eating from silver plates is safe. The quantity of
silver in the end result is not enough to cause problems, even if you
drink it for a lifetime.
Argyria: Rosemary Jacobs did not get this blue skin coloration from
this type of cs, she got it from ground silver powder in water, which
contains 1000s times as much Ag, and was used under the name colloidal
silver a century ago. It is a different product.
Use:
Topical: apply cs soaked toilet paper to infection, keep in place for
10 minutes 2x a day. Expect complete clearance in 2-3 days, even for
quite serious infections.
Systemic: a good gulp 2x a day. Expect complete clearance in 2-3 days.
Dose does not need to be more accurate because there is a huge margin
between effective and toxic.
Once more people get past all the nonsense and shenanigans that
surround it, and address only the question 'does it kill bacteria or
not', I'm sure its use will spread.
NT
big...@meeow.co.uk
> How long do the electrodes last (Hours in service)
decades
> and what are their dimensions please ?
1.5" discs work well. Other things have also been used, eg silver wire.
The silver must be pure.
NT
Mike Harrison
Robert Baer
You may be correct in all you say, EXCEPT: true distilled water is
*not* conductive; it is a pretty good insulator.
In order to get currents in the range you mentioned, one has to be
rather eXplicit about a lot of information you did not even hint about.
1) Voltage should be specified.
(remember, E(voltage)=I(current)*R(resistance).
2) Electrode area IN the water (and that means *both* electrodes).
(remember, we are talking about *volume* resistivity, so to decrease
the terminal resistance, one needs to increase the area).
Robert Baer
Mike Monett
> wronga...@att.net wrote:
> > Anybody know how a colloidal silver generator works?
> > I have read a few articles that suggest drinking
> > a solution of silver and water cures many medical problems,
> > and the solution can be made with just a couple silver electrodes
> > in distilled water using a constant current of around 1 mA for
> > a couple hours.
> >
> > Is this just a quack idea, or does it have some benefit?
> >
> > How much current is needed, for how much time, for optimum
> > results, and how do you determine the end of the process
> > when enough silver is disolved in the water, and it's time
> > to take a drink?
> >
> > -Bill
>
>
> Firstly, depsite all the garbage on the net for and against it, it
> works very well as a topical antibiotic and antifungal, and systemic
> antibiotic. It might or might not do other things, it is also claimed
> it kills viri, but I simply have no data on that. Its most noticeable
> features are its speed of action, ability to tackle (other-) antibiotic
> resistant bacteria, flawless safety record, low cost, and instability.
CS is an excellent antibacteria, antiviral, and in high concentration,
an excellent antifungal agent. It is very stable if made properly.
Please see my ancient web page on Shingles (Caution - graphic images)
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
[...]
Much more information is available at
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/colloidalsilver2/messages
Regards,
Mike Monett
big...@meeow.co.uk
> You may be correct in all you say, EXCEPT: true distilled water is
> *not* conductive; it is a pretty good insulator.
I recommend getting some and measuring it. There is often confusion
around this. Any practical source of distilled water will contain
_some_ ions. While it can indeed be used as a high v insulator, it isnt
quite perfect.
> In order to get currents in the range you mentioned, one has to be
> rather eXplicit about a lot of information you did not even hint
about.
> 1) Voltage should be specified.
> (remember, E(voltage)=I(current)*R(resistance).
it was specified.
> 2) Electrode area IN the water (and that means *both* electrodes).
> (remember, we are talking about *volume* resistivity, so to
decrease
> the terminal resistance, one needs to increase the area).
again, an approximate figure can very simply be calculated from what
was specified. The trodes were about 2/3 the way under water, but size
and immersion are not critical.
NT
JeffM
>that suggest drinking a solution of silver and water
>cures many medical problems
Andreas Rutz
>
>> *not* conductive; it is a pretty good insulator.
>
> I recommend getting some and measuring it. There is often confusion
> around this. Any practical source of distilled water will contain
> _some_ ions. While it can indeed be used as a high v insulator, it
> isnt quite perfect.
>
Very high quailty DI water has about 18 Mohm * cm. It does not stay that
good for a long time if stored. So you can expect a better conductivity from
off the shelf distilled water.
JeffM
>>>cures many medical problems
>>> wrongaddress
>>
>>http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:oMatS1284zkJ:www.healthcentral.com/News/NewsFullText.cfm%3FID%3D54463%26storytype%3DAPNews+Examples-of-questionable-products+colloidal-silver+federal-fraud-charges
>
>And the other side of the coin from a manufacturer
>http://suttonssolutions.com.au/
>
Ross Herbert
It's a shame they've stopped teaching science in the schools.[1]
Show me a peer-reviewed double-blind study
that supports any of their claims.
[1]Same holds for the Schiavo case.
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
Ah. I see. Science by consensus.
Feh.
Rich
JeffM
>>Show me a peer-reviewed double-blind study
>>that supports any of their claims.
>
>Ah. I see. Science by consensus.
>Feh.
Proof beats dogma.
Consensus beats zero every time. Hell, 1 beats zero.
I'm still waiting to see anything that looks like science on the pro
side.
big...@meeow.co.uk
This is the number one problem with cs. Studies are reported, but
without really sufficient information to evaluate them.
Meanwhile a lot of people are using it, and have got results. For me
thats what I base my conclusions on: not what I found online, which was
pretty shaky, but on the results of testing/using it repeatedly. It
works.
NT
Mark Jones
One would think, with thousands of years of use, CS would be well-documented.
Why is it not?
I'd love to study the long-term effects of some specific items on lab mice.
Like tap water (with chlorine and fluorine free radicals), de-ionized/distilled
water, CS, etc. Just so SOMEBODY would know once and for all, the facts.
Rich The Philosophizer
That's the problem. Waiting to _see_ it.
Have you tried _feeling_?
Good Luck!
Rich
for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com
John Woodgate
(in <b_udneeTLZn...@buckeye-express.com>) about 'Colloidal
silver generator?', on Tue, 29 Mar 2005:
> One would think, with thousands of years of use, CS would be
>well-documented. Why is it not?
Presumably because none of the drug companies can see a way of getting a
patentable drug out of it.
>
> I'd love to study the long-term effects of some specific items on lab
>mice. Like tap water (with chlorine and fluorine free radicals),
>de-ionized/distilled water, CS, etc. Just so SOMEBODY would know once
>and for all, the facts.
You won't get a grant to do it, for the above reason.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
big...@meeow.co.uk
> big...@meeow.co.uk wrote:
> One would think, with thousands of years of use, CS would be
well-documented.
> Why is it not?
First it has nnt had 100s of years use. Electrolytic cs is a recent
thing. Ground silver has a history of use, and is also called cs, but
is a substantially different thing.
Why is it not documented? It is. There are various studies on it. But
without any company funding it (no company stands to profit), the
trials are small and from unknown sources, not from people that do this
kind of work for a living. That leaves too many questions to really be
sure of them.
There is a surgical dressing company with FDA approval for silver
impregnated dressings: is it silverlon?
> I'd love to study the long-term effects of some specific items on
lab mice.
> Like tap water (with chlorine and fluorine free radicals),
de-ionized/distilled
> water, CS, etc. Just so SOMEBODY would know once and for all, the
facts.
Silver toxicity is known well enough already, and is not an issue with
electrolyic cs. So this doesnt need doing. Ground silver is another
preparation altogether.
There are means other than medical studies that give us information
too: I understand it has large scale industrial uses, these would not
occur if it were useless. Having said that... I have no ref to back
this up, maybe someone else here has.
NT
JeffM
>>>>that supports any of their claims.
>>
>>I'm still waiting to see
>>anything that looks like science on the pro side.
>
>That's the problem. Waiting to _see_ it.
>Have you tried _feeling_?
Ever hear of the Placebo Effect?
Hold on while I take my doses of
tiger penis, bear gall bladder, and rhino horn.
kell
shiny grey skin. Argentosis.
Mike Monett
>
> I know a guy that's obsessed with collodial silver. Guy has this weird
> shiny grey skin. Argentosis.
It is called Argyria, and is very rare. Your friend was either making
silver chloride by adding salt to the brew like Stan Jones, shown here in
a photo doctored by a reporter to make him look bluer:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2297471.stm
or he was taking a silver compound such as Mild Silver Protein, Silver
Acetate, or a similar product. Rosemary Jacobs was taking silver nitrate,
but later changed her description to colloidal silver. She never took
colloidal silver in her life.
http://homepages.together.net/~rjstan/argyria_photos_intro.html
Silver compounds have very high silver content in a form that is
difficult for the body to eliminate. They also have very poor
antibacterial properties which leads the user to take more.
Solutions containing silver ions are very easy to make properly and are
quickly eliminated from the body. The instructions are clear and readily
available on the web. In over a decade of use by millions of people, not
one single person has developed Argyria by taking colloidal silver. See
http://www.silvermedicine.org/argyria-cases.html
Here is a good summary from Jason's web site:
http://www.silvermedicine.org/argyria.html
There are many documented examples in medical literature of the
antibacterial and antiviral property of ionic silver solutions, and many
testimonials from people who have used it to cure anything from pink eye
(bacterial infection), flu and colds (caused by virus), warts (caused by
virus), to Shingles (virus, see my shingles page - caution graphic
photos) at
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
Mike Monett
John Woodgate
(in <424F47...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
Sat, 2 Apr 2005:
>Silver compounds have very high silver content in a form that is
>difficult for the body to eliminate. They also have very poor
>antibacterial properties which leads the user to take more.
>
>Solutions containing silver ions are very easy to make properly and are
>quickly eliminated from the body. The instructions are clear and
>readily available on the web. In over a decade of use by millions of
>people, not one single person has developed Argyria by taking colloidal
>silver.
There is something seriously wrong here. Silver compounds, such as
silver nitrate, produce silver ions in aqueous solution. They can
produce argyria.
Colloidal silver should NOT contain silver ions. It is a non-settling
suspension of extremely small particles of metallic silver.
Mike Monett
>
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
> (in <424F47...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
> Sat, 2 Apr 2005:
>
> >Silver compounds have very high silver content in a form that is
> >difficult for the body to eliminate. They also have very poor
> >antibacterial properties which leads the user to take more.
> >
> >Solutions containing silver ions are very easy to make properly and are
> >quickly eliminated from the body. The instructions are clear and
> >readily available on the web. In over a decade of use by millions of
> >people, not one single person has developed Argyria by taking colloidal
> >silver.
>
> There is something seriously wrong here. Silver compounds, such as
> silver nitrate, produce silver ions in aqueous solution. They can
> produce argyria.
That's what Rosemary took that gave her Argyria. Silver Nitrate is a compound
that works completely different from silver ions.
> Colloidal silver should NOT contain silver ions. It is a non-settling
> suspension of extremely small particles of metallic silver.
There are no pure silver particles in colloidal silver. The particles are silver
hydroxide, which is inert and has no biological activity.
Silver electrolysis is as follows:
At the anode:
2Ag - 2e- --> 2Ag+
At the cathode:
2H2O + 2e- --> H2(g) + 2OH-
The ions spread throughout the solution due to mutual repulsion, convection
currents, electric field gradient, and random walk due to thermal velocity.
Usually the convection currents dominate. See my posts on "Making Ions Visible"
at
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m61491.html
and
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m61527.html
Under the right conditions, the silver and hydroxyl ions can combine to form
silver hydroxide:
Ag+ + OH- --> AgOH
Due to the high thermal velocity at room temperature, the probability of this
reaction is low. The ions have to be close to each other and moving almost
directly towards each other before they can combine. If these conditions are not
met, the ions will be deflected by collisions with water molecules.
The probability of collision is enhanced in the Nernst Diffusion layer next to
each electrode, where the density of ions released is highest. The density
increases with current density at the electrode.
For example, at low current density, (ID < 1 mA/Sq.In.), silver ions from the
anode can make it through this layer and reach the cathode where they accept an
electron and plate out. The silver atoms can encase hydrogen gas to form small
bubbles that look like spanish moss hanging down from the cathode.
At higher current density, (ID => 1mA/Sq.In.), the silver and hydroxyl ions can
combine in the Nernst Diffusion layer to form silver hydroxide as described
above. Some of the hydroxide forms a soft black film on the electrodes, and some
disperses into the water. See
http://www.utopiasilver.com/images/gen3.jpg
and
http://www.silverpuppy.com/resource/ionpud1.jpg
Silver hydroxide generates a Tyndall Effect when viewed in a laser beam. For an
example of very strong Tyndall, see
http://silvermedicine.org/dark_tyndal_with_h2o2.jpg
The silver hydroxide was previously considered to have a solubility of 13ppm.
See
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/Solubility_Products.PDF
However, my experiments show the solubility of silver hydroxide in distilled
water is less than 0.655ppm, and probably zero. See
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m79117.html
and
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m78851.html
The silver hydroxide particles absorb the blue end of the spectrum, giving the
colloidal silver a characteristic yellow tint that varies from a pale straw
color to a deep yellow, depending on concentration. However, by adjusting the
current density, electrode configuration, and adding means to thoroughly mix the
distilled water during electrolysis, the solution can have a very silver oxide
low content, and the ion content can exceed 95%.
From the above, it is clear that pure silver particles cannot be formed from the
electrolysis of silver. Once a silver atom has given up an electron to become an
ion, it cannot get the electron back. Electrons do not flow in water.
The only source of negative charge is the cathode, where the ion plates out and
sticks due to Van der Waals force, or the hydroxyl ion, which forms insoluble
silver hydroxide particles. These are inert and have no biological activity.
They are hard for the body to eliminate, and can lead to Argyria in high
concentration.
Only the silver ions are effective in killing bacteria, viruses, and fungus. See
Steve Quinto's time/kill analysis at
Additional supporting data are at
http://tinyurl.com/47ujf
http://tinyurl.com/3mmq2
The silver ions are quickly elminated from the body, and they do not accumulate.
They cannot produce Argyria. See
http://www.silvermedicine.org/altmanstudy.html
http://www.silvermedicine.org/AltmanStudy.pdf
The typical concentration of silver ions is 5 ppm to 20ppm. This is measured
with a Hanna 98308 PWT (Pure Water Tester), where the combined action of the
silver and hydroxyl ions increases the conductivity of the solution. I did a
study of data posted by Ivan Anderson, Trem Williams, and Frank Key, and showed
the correlation between ppm and microsiemens (uS) is 1uS=1ppm.
To give an idea of how little silver is in solution, 1 ppm is the weight of a
standard American penny compared to the curb weight of a Ford F250 pickup truck.
This means the solution is extremely sensitive to contamination. For example
spray drops from household cleaners can travel an amazing distance and
contaminate the cs generator. The drops could contain bleach (chlorine), vinegar
(acetate), ammonia (nitrogen), or many other conaminants.
Accordingly, a conductance reading on the Hanna might be misleading due to
contamination. In order to increase the confidence in the reading, you can
perform a Faraday calculation to determine the amount of silver liberated during
electrolysis, and compare it to the Hanna reading. Then pour 1/2 inch of the
solution in a 3 oz shot glass and add a few grains of pickling or canning salt.
these contain no additives that cloud the solution.
The salt melts and produces the folowing reactions:
Ag+ + Cl- --> AgCl (silver chloride)
Na+ + OH- --> NaOH (silver hydroxide)
The silver chloride is insoluble and forms a pale blue disperstion that turns
white as the concentration of silver ions increases. At 20uS, the dispersion
will start to obscure objects behind the glass. I am now able to make cs with
concentration of 35uS to 45uS. The dispersion completely obscures objects behind
the glass.
The biological effect of silver ions increases with concentration. I first used
silver ions to kill the Shingles virus, as described in this web page (caution
graphic images)
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
However, the virus came back some 6 months later and formed very painful open
bleeding sores. The cs I was making at the time had no effect.
I did come experiments and discovered the effect of current density on the
maximum achievable ion concentration. This led to a new generator that doubled
the concentration to 20uS. The first use was on a Monday. The following
Wednesday, the Shingles blisters dried up and fell off. They never returned.
The new cs proved very effective against all flu and cold viruses, and vas able
to remove a mole that had been on my arm as long as I remember. Many moles are
caused by viruses, which are killed by the ions. I took a simple bandage and
laced the pad on the mole, then kept it saturated with cs. After several days,
the top layers started peeling off, and soon the entire mole disappeared.
This cs was effective on everything except the terrible symptoms from mold
toxins that have crippled me for years. I developed a new generator that again
doubled the ion concentration, to between 35uS and 45uS. The first use was on
March 4.
The healing effect is so pronounced that I will be able to start looking for
work next week, the first time since 1999. I am including a list of the date and
time of each dose for your review.
So colloidal silver is a misnomer. It actually contains two components: silver
ions and silver hydroxide. Only the ions have any biological effect. Silver ions
in solution are typically between 5 and 20uS, but advanced generators can reach
45uS or more.
The resulting solution is the most effective antibacterial, antifungal and
antiviral substance in existance. The pharmaceutical companies are terrified of
this material. It would destroy their business. They have enlisted the FDA to
ensure it is wiped off the market, and they use a misinformation campaign to
make you believe you will get Argyria. As shown above, this is simply not true.
You can make it yourself for pennies. WQhen the next bird flu hits, millions may
die. Learn how to make and use colloidal silver, and prevent this from happening
to your loved ones and friends.
All the best,
Mike Monett
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a list of the date and time of each dose that healed years of toxic
effects from mold spores:
Method: Pour 50ml in 3 oz shot glass and hold in mouth for 10
minutes then swallow.
50 ml = 1.69070113 US fluid ounces
Fri Mar 04, 2005, 07:54:49 pm 44.9uS
Sat Mar 05, 2005, 12:29:08 pm 42.5uS
Sat Mar 05, 2005, 11:03:48 pm 42.3uS
Sun Mar 06, 2005, 11:38:55 am 40.0uS
- Small headache. Will see if it goes away. It did, sort of.
Sun Mar 06, 2005, 04:25:26 pm 41.9uS
Mon Mar 07, 2005, 01:08:09 pm 40.0uS
Tue Mar 08, 2005, 11:58:48 am 27.2uS <- new brew
Wed Mar 09, 2005, 12:47:25 am 26.5uS
Wed Mar 09, 2005, 07:35:44 am 24.5uS
Wed Mar 09, 2005, 08:14:58 pm 25.5uS
Wed Mar 09, 2005, 11:12:45 pm 25.2uS
Thu Mar 10, 2005, 03:05:24 am 45.2uS <- new brew
Thu Mar 10, 2005, 10:47:44 am 42.2uS
Fri Mar 11, 2005, 04:58:48 am 41.4uS Headache
Fri Mar 11, 2005, 07:52:10 am
It took about 3 hrs, but headache is reduced.
Sat Mar 12, 2005, 09:58:49 am 37.3uS <- new brew. Big headache
Sat Mar 12, 2005, 04:08:48 pm 39.0uS
Sat Mar 12, 2005, 09:36:47 pm 37.4uS <- headache. See if it stops
Missed one
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 12:24:55 am 31.1uS
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 03:32:50 am 31.6uS
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 11:01:48 am 27.5uS <- cold in room
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 04:28:30 pm 27.2uS <- a bit warmer
Tue Mar 15, 2005, 06:27:06 am 33.2uS <- new batch
Tue Mar 15, 2005, 05:20:19 pm 34.5uS
Wed Mar 16, 2005, 12:36:09 am 32.3uS
Wed Mar 16, 2005, 01:50:44 pm 29.1uS
Wed Mar 16, 2005, 06:53:17 pm 39.7uS <- new batch
Thu Mar 17, 2005, 02:23:33 am 38.5uS
Thu Mar 17, 2005, 03:14:50 pm 35.4uS
Fri Mar 18, 2005, 09:23:14 am 35.0uS
Fri Mar 18, 2005, 08:59:13 pm 35.2uS
Sat Mar 19, 2005, 07:21:44 am 35.6uS
Sat Mar 19, 2005, 02:16:51 pm 34.7uS
Sun Mar 20, 2005, 03:29:33 am 32.0uS <- new batch
Sun Mar 20, 2005, 12:18:19 pm 28.8uS
Mon Mar 21, 2005, 12:21:37 pm 29.1uS
Mon Mar 21, 2005, 08:19:44 pm 46.4uS <- new batch
Tue Mar 22, 2005, 10:07:25 am 41.5uS
Wed Mar 23, 2005, 11:05:30 am 40.5uS
Thu Mar 24, 2005, 12:45:12 am 39.0uS
Thu Mar 24, 2005, 02:30:59 pm 36.4uS
Fri Mar 25, 2005, 03:49:29 am 37.5uS
Fri Mar 25, 2005, 06:48:09 am 37.5uS
Fri Mar 25, 2005, 07:50:43 pm 29.5uS <- leftover old stuff
Sat Mar 26, 2005, 01:29:50 am 30.3uS
Sat Mar 26, 2005, 12:50:01 pm 29.6uS <- last of this batch
Mon Mar 28, 2005, 04:03:21 am 34.8uS <- new batch
Tue Mar 29, 2005, 03:26:23 pm 34.7uS
Wed Mar 30, 2005, 12:51:39 am 35.4uS
Wed Mar 30, 2005, 08:03:54 am 35.1uS
Thu Mar 31, 2005, 06:36:46 am 35.3uS
Thu Mar 31, 2005, 05:19:45 pm 35.2uS
Sat Apr 02, 2005, 06:38:56 pm 34.3uS
John Woodgate
Sun, 3 Apr 2005:
>Silver Nitrate is a compound that works completely different from
>silver ions.
Silver nitrate is ionised in aqueous solution, forming Ag+ and NO3-
ions.
>
>> Colloidal silver should NOT contain silver ions. It is a non-settling
>> suspension of extremely small particles of metallic silver.
>
>There are no pure silver particles in colloidal silver. The particles
>are silver hydroxide, which is inert and has no biological activity.
If it has no biological activity, what it the point of taking it?
I suggest a visit to:
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Pubs/bogus-silver.html
where, among other truths, one can read:
QUOTE
"pure liquid ionic silver in the form of silver hydroxide..." While the
product is called Ionic Silver and it really is an ionic silver
solution, the ad states that the anion is hydroxide. For this statement
to be true silver hydroxide would have to be a water soluble salt of
silver, which it is not. Silver hydroxide is not water soluble, meaning
it does not dissolve in water. All hydroxides are insoluble EXCEPT those
of ammonium, barium and alkali metal (Group I) cations. For more see:
Rules of Ionic Solubility. This misleading information is attempting to
obscure the true nature of the anion content of this product.
Laboratory analysis of this product has determined that the anion is
citrate. So while the label simply states that the product is ionic
silver, it is actually a water soluble silver salt, silver citrate
dissolved in water. One can only wonder what they are trying hide.
ENDQUOTE
ANY solution containing silver ions has the potential to cause argyria.
Of course, the silver content of some products is so low, you would need
to drink gallons....
Mark Jones
I doubt very much that CS would have any impact whatsoever for headaches. There
does appear to be some evidence of ionic silver dispatching bacteria, and
probably a wide array of them at that, but I have yet to see any proof that
viruses are affected. If that were the case, why hasn't someone taken over this
market and made trillions as a cure for the common cold? Hmm.
It's all a little sketchy. Shingles, another virus. Warts? Topical removal of
warts with CS? I seriously doubt that... the root of a wart is deep under the
skin. The exposed parts of a wart can be debraded but the wart will come back
due to its root. Why would soaking in CS be any different? And why wouldn't
ingested CS accomplish the same thing? However, I have heard that warts cannot
live in a moist environment, so if only by the application of CS the wart is
kept damp, this may be the underlying reason for dispach. (I had a nasty wart on
my finger for 10 years, tried everything... then one day I heard how Duct Tape
works by keeping the wart moist, so I tried it... and lo and behold, two weeks
later, no more wart. Now THAT worked.
I'd like to belive CS was some "miracle wonder drug" but so far, it sounds like
hogwash - no hard evidence, lots of assumptions. Lets see some clinical results
from scientific studies proving its efficacy, and not just "heresay", "age-old
reports", and "secret observations."
That said, I have a really bad cold I've been suffering through for nearly a
week... care to send me a sample of CS to try?
Regards,
Mark Jones
Mike Monett
I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
(in <424FA4...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
Sun, 3 Apr 2005:
>> Silver Nitrate is a compound that works completely different from
>> silver ions.
> Silver nitrate is ionised in aqueous solution, forming Ag+ and
> NO3- ions.
It is very destructive to tissue. Silver ions have no effect.
>>> Colloidal silver should NOT contain silver ions. It is a
>>> non-settling suspension of extremely small particles of metallic
>>> silver.
>> There are no pure silver particles in colloidal silver. The
>> particles are silver hydroxide, which is inert and has no
>> biological activity.
> If it has no biological activity, what it the point of taking it?
None. The hydroxide comes with the silver ions.
> I suggest a visit to:
> http://www.silver-colloids.com/Pubs/bogus-silver.html
Yes, Frank and I have had many entertaining discussions. He tried to
convince me that electrons flow in water, and is now trying to
convince me the absorption spectrum of an atom is determined by its
physical size. I simply ignore him now. It is not worth wasting time
on his crap.
> where, among other truths, one can read:
I severely question your attribute "truth". Please do the
experiments yourself.
> QUOTE
> "pure liquid ionic silver in the form of silver hydroxide..."
> While the product is called Ionic Silver and it really is an ionic
> silver solution, the ad states that the anion is hydroxide. For
> this statement to be true silver hydroxide would have to be a
> water soluble salt of silver, which it is not. Silver hydroxide is
> not water soluble, meaning it does not dissolve in water. All
> hydroxides are insoluble EXCEPT those of ammonium, barium and
> alkali metal (Group I) cations. For more see: Rules of Ionic
> Solubility. This misleading information is attempting to obscure
> the true nature of the anion content of this product.
> Laboratory analysis of this product has determined that the anion
> is citrate. So while the label simply states that the product is
> ionic silver, it is actually a water soluble silver salt, silver
> citrate dissolved in water. One can only wonder what they are
> trying hide.
> ENDQUOTE
This has nothing to do with ionic silver that you make yourself.
Questions about Frank's site appear regularly in the colloidal
newsgroups. The comments generally follow the line "What kind of
bullshit is this?"
Frank loves to hypothesize. He rarely conducts an experiment to
determine if his ideas are correct. He spews on about competing
products while he tries to sell you dirty brown water for US$425 per
gallon.
Nobody likes Frank, and nobody believes anything he has to say about
particles and ions.
He does have some useful pages. If you simply ignore his propaganda
on ions and colloids. For example, the glossary is excellent:
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/definitions.html
His report on Transmission Electron Microscope (TEM) images of cs is
quite good, but ignore all the chemistry equations he gives. They
are all unbalanced and incorrect.
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Pubs/TEM.html
And the product reports are very useful. Disregard the accuracy he
claims in his measurements. Numbers stated to two decimal places is
rubbish. What is important is the rich variety of processes
represented in the reports, and the typical numbers that can be
expected from each.
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Reports/reports.html
For example, as well as the Natural Immunogenics products favored by
Jason, the American Biotech Labs "ASAP Solution" provides an ionic
concentration of 19.6 ppm. Since ions are ions, this is probably a
much less expensive product with equal performance:
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Reports/cpr06/cpr_06.html
> ANY solution containing silver ions has the potential to cause
> argyria. Of course, the silver content of some products is so low,
> you would need to drink gallons....
Nope. The body eliminates silver ions very rapidly.
Apparently the time I spent replying to you was wasted. You never
looked at any of the references I provided.
Enjoy your flu, warts, Shingles, colds, infections, etc. And have a
ball when the bird flu comes.
Mike Monett
Dave
> [...]
>
> Enjoy your flu, warts, Shingles, colds, infections, etc. And
> have a ball when the bird flu comes.
>
> Mike Monett
My goodness, a cure for everything. It's a medical conspiracy.
John Woodgate
Sun, 3 Apr 2005:
>Apparently the time I spent replying to you was wasted. You never
> looked at any of the references I provided.
I didn't see any references. But I do know a bit of chemistry and your
proposal that AgOH is soluble and ionised in aqueous solution is a fairy
tale.
Mike Monett
> So what's involved in the "advanced" generator? A constant-current
> source?
Most cs generators beyond the 3 nines use controlled current.
Unfortunately, they like to use a LM317 which has a minimum current
limit of 10mA. So they may or may not have control over the current,
especially at the start of the brew when the dw has minimum
conductance. So the results may be poor and non-repeatable.
I judge the quality of a brew by the ion content and how fast it
decays due to silver ions combining with hydroxyls after the brew is
finished. You can see the drop in the time/dose list I gave earlier.
Trem Williams of Silvergen makes a production cs generator called
the SG7. He has two gallons of brew made several years ago that
originally measured 45uS. He measured them recently - they still do.
At my request, he recently made two more batches with the same
results. This is very high quality cs.
Besides controlling the current density, he also uses a pump to
vigorously stir the cs. He uses flat plates folded like a fan for
stiffness, and feels the pump action is not good enough unless the
water is roiling.
> I doubt very much that CS would have any impact whatsoever for
> headaches.
The 20uS cs had no effect. The 35-45uS is very effective. But you
also have to take many other steps. I have to sterilize my bedding
and clothes each day to kill the bacteria and fungus that likes to
grow in cotton and some polyesters. I use a modified dishwasher with
a simple transitor temperature sensor and a LM358 driving a relay to
hold the temperature at 230 +/- 2.5 degrees F.
Also, raw brocolli seems to have a beneficial effect with the cs.
> There does appear to be some evidence of ionic silver dispatching
> bacteria, and probably a wide array of them at that, but I have
> yet to see any proof that viruses are affected.
Colds and flu are caused by viruses. Shingles is caused by the
Herpes Zoster virus. You will not like it when it arrives.
> If that were the case, why hasn't someone taken over this market
> and made trillions as a cure for the common cold? Hmm.
Nobody can take over the market. CS is not patentable. That's why
the drug companies are so afraid of it. They cannot charge their
exorbitant rates.
> It's all a little sketchy. Shingles, another virus.
Read my web page and check the references.
http://www.geocities.com/mrmonett/shingles/0shin.htm
> Warts? Topical removal of warts with CS? I seriously doubt that...
> the root of a wart is deep under the skin. The exposed parts of a
> wart can be debraded but the wart will come back due to its root.
> Why would soaking in CS be any different?
CS easily penetrates the skin. It kills the virus.
> And why wouldn't ingested CS accomplish the same thing?
If you hold 1 oz of 20uS cs in your mouth for sublingual absorption
and spit it out, the maximum concentration of silver ions you can
get in your bloodstream is 118 parts per billion. This is sufficient
to kill most bacteria and viruses, but there is little circulation
around the root of the virus. So it's difficult to get enough ions
in there to do the job by ingesting it.
> However, I have heard that warts cannot live in a moist
> environment, so if only by the application of CS the wart is kept
> damp, this may be the underlying reason for dispach.
The root is already in a damp environment. Also, I have had plenty
of warts on the soles of my feet as a youth. I was active and my
socks were always soaked in sweat.
> (I had a nasty wart on my finger for 10 years, tried everything...
> then one day I heard how Duct Tape works by keeping the wart
> moist, so I tried it... and lo and behold, two weeks later, no
> more wart. Now THAT worked.
Next time try cs. It works faster.
> I'd like to belive CS was some "miracle wonder drug" but so far,
> it sounds like hogwash - no hard evidence, lots of assumptions.
I have provided hard examples. Check Steve Quinto's time/kill
analysis.
> Lets see some clinical results from scientific studies proving its
> efficacy, and not just "heresay", "age-old reports", and "secret
> observations."
I made no references to any such data.
For more information, please see US patent 5,814,094 by Robert O.
Becker titled "Iontopheretic system for stimulation of tissue
healing and regeneration".
Dr A. Bart Flick (inventor of Silverlon bandages) worked with Dr.
Becker, and has been researching the medical uses of silver for over
20 years. He has compiled a list of 183 books and research papers
which can be found at:
http://www.svpvril.com/AgBIBLIO.html
His web site at
has very graphic photos of burn victims healed by silver ions
released from his bandages. Also some other examples of bone
infection and maybe a finger healed by silver ions.
> That said, I have a really bad cold I've been suffering through
> for nearly a week... care to send me a sample of CS to try?
I would but it's too late. You should have asked as soon as you got
a sore throat. That's why you need to learn how to make this stuff
so it's ready when you need it.
But I'd be happy to send you some if you pay the shipping costs.
> Regards,
> Mark Jones
Mike Monett
Mike Monett
I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
(in <42500D...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
Sun, 3 Apr 2005:
>> Apparently the time I spent replying to you was wasted. You never
>> looked at any of the references I provided.
> I didn't see any references. But I do know a bit of chemistry and
> your proposal that AgOH is soluble and ionised in aqueous solution
> is a fairy tale.
> Regards, John Woodgate,
John, I provided 13 urls in my reply. They were all relevant to the
discussion. You ignored them.
I did not state AgOH was soluble. You provided the quote from
Frank's page where Frank Key stated AgOH is soluble. His chemist,
Dr. Maas, did the calculations:
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/Solubility_Products.PDF
My experiments show it is insoluble. See
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m79117.html
and
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m78851.html
This directly contradicts Frank's claim.
Silver hydroxide is inert and insoluble. It has no biological
activity.
Frank is wrong. Again!
Mike Monett
John Woodgate
Sun, 3 Apr 2005:
> John, I provided 13 urls in my reply. They were all relevant to the
> discussion. You ignored them.
I'm sure I didn't see any references to peer-reviewed papers. URLs to
snake-oil purveyors prove nothing.
Let's agree to disagree.
Mike Monett
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
> (in <42500D...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
> Sun, 3 Apr 2005:
>> Apparently the time I spent replying to you was wasted. You never
>> looked at any of the references I provided.
> I didn't see any references. But I do know a bit of chemistry and
> your proposal that AgOH is soluble and ionised in aqueous solution
> is a fairy tale.
John, I apologise - I took another look at your reference, and
missed a key word in your quoted material.
In spite of the solubility calculations provided by Dr. Maass, Frank
got this one right. Silver hydroxide is NOT soluble, which you state
and my experiments also proved.
However, Frank states silver hydroxide is unstable and converts to
silver oxide. This is not true. Silver hydroxide is stable to around
100C as demonstrated by my experiments.
Frank also states
"Silver hydroxide reduces to silver oxide and hydrogen."
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/definitions.html#ionic.silver
This is also not true. His equation is unbalanced:
2AgOH --> Ag2O + H2
He is missing one oxygen and some electrons. The equation should read
2AgOH --> Ag2O + H2O
There are many other examples of contradictions and errors in his
site. For example, he states ionic silver will give you Argyria on
one page, then states it will not do so on another. This really
confuses the beginners.
So you really have to be careful when quoting Frank Key!
Mike Monett
Mike Monett
>
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
> (in <425023...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
> Sun, 3 Apr 2005:
> > John, I provided 13 urls in my reply. They were all relevant to the
> > discussion. You ignored them.
>
> I'm sure I didn't see any references to peer-reviewed papers. URLs to
> snake-oil purveyors prove nothing.
Frank is the snake-oil salesman, which you quoted. If he is a valid
reference, then certainly Quinto has to be accepted also.
Check the references to silverlon, the biblio by Dr. Flick, and the
patent by Becker that I provided in a related post.
It's real, John.
Mike Monett
big...@meeow.co.uk
> I doubt very much that CS would have any impact whatsoever for
headaches.
Ie you dont know. I've never heard of that one before, but will try it
some day.
> There
> does appear to be some evidence of ionic silver dispatching bacteria,
and
> probably a wide array of them at that,
good good, because that establishes some important ground concepts.
> but I have yet to see any proof that
> viruses are affected. If that were the case, why hasn't someone taken
over this
> market and made trillions as a cure for the common cold? Hmm.
There is no business model to make any significant money, let alone
trillions.
1. The company would have to start by funding research, which costs.
2. Given the level of public miseducation about cs etc, it would all be
an uphill battle, requiring marketing money too.
3. And wheres the cash cow? There is none. Cs is not patentable, nor a
trade secret, nor does it require anything more than 10 bucks of kit to
make. Every tom dick and harry will make it, and do so without the huge
costs already borne by the company. Its a business non starter.
4. Hence no marketing, no expensive research, etc.
> It's all a little sketchy. Shingles, another virus. Warts? Topical
removal of
> warts with CS? I seriously doubt that...
Effective Topical treatment of warts is long established. Topical
Acetic acid is used today, and was used as far back as the 30s, and
works very well. No mystery there.
> I'd like to belive CS was some "miracle wonder drug" but so far, it
sounds like
> hogwash
to be more exact, it sounds like other than what youve been led to
believe.
But you have a point: in the absence of fully hard proven facts, you
associate it with other similar claims, most of which turned out to be
snake oil. Understandable, but not really proof of anything.
T be more accurate we should say that some of such claims of
antibacterial.fungal/viral properties of various odds and ends have
turned out to be true before, though most have not.
> - no hard evidence,
thats the number 1 problem. There is no business model to pay for hard
evidence. There are various studies, but the sources, methods etc are
basically unknown and thus uncertain.
> lots of assumptions.
what assumptions? Who is making them? It either works or doesnt, its
really that simple in principle. These discussions are solely for those
of you who are too lazy to do the experiment and find out. And imho
will never convince. It costs $10CDN to go find out.
> Lets see some clinical results
> from scientific studies proving its efficacy, and not just "heresay",
"age-old
> reports", and "secret observations."
whos paying? Ah, no-one.
> That said, I have a really bad cold I've been suffering through for
nearly a
> week... care to send me a sample of CS to try?
It'll cost you $10CDN and 15 minutes.
NT
Mike Monett
>
> Mark Jones wrote:
>
> > I doubt very much that CS would have any impact whatsoever for
> headaches.
>
> Ie you dont know. I've never heard of that one before, but will try it
> some day.
I need to explain clearly - these headaches are due to personal
hypersensitivity to mold toxins and are very different from normal
headaches. Nothing affects them - the normal headache remedies such as
aspirin, tylenol, etc., have no effect.
I found that 20uS cs also had no effect. However, after developing a new
method of making cs that produced ionic concentrations of 35uS to 45uS, I
discovered it did banish these headaches. I have no idea what it would do
to a plain headache, since I never get them. Nature compensates:)
I also found that raw brocolli stems have a substance that also
eliminates the toxin headaches. Cooking destroys it, and brocolli shoots
have about 15 times the concentration of mature plants.
You can make a very simple cs generator with excellent performance. Buy 3
feet of 12 ga 0.999 fine silver wire. Monsterslayer is an excellent
source that has no minimum purchase requirement. Email them for the
current price:
http://www.monsterslayer.com/MiscPages/SilverBG.htm
Find a 1 litre plastic food container. The dimensions can be about 4 X 4
X 4 inches and may be available in Dollar shops. Trim the lid so it
removes very easily without binding.
Cut the silver wire in half. Fold each half into a "W" shape with about
1/2 inch between the legs. The middle leg can be about 3 1/2 inches long.
Use a sharp pointed tool and punch holes about 1 inches from the corner
of the lid to mount the electrodes. The electrodes should face each other
and be about 3 inches apart. The bottom of the legs should be about 3/8
inch above the bottom of the container with the lid in place.
None of the dimensions are critical, but you should end up with the
electrodes mounted vertical, facing each other and parallel to each
other. Use ordinary hot glue to hold the electrodes in place. Mark the
lid near the electrodes with an indelible marking pen so you can identify
them.
Clean the electrodes with scotch brite, followed by a tissue soaked with
H2O2, then another soaked with ordinary drugstore isopropyl alcohol.
Clean the inside of the container with H2O2 and isoprope as above. Scotch
brite is not needed on the plastic.
After cleaning, never touch the electrodes with your fingers, never let
them rest on the table where they can pick up contamination, and never
use spray cleaners nearby without covering or moving the generator.
The plastic container may outgas plasticizer into the distilled water
and give it an unleasant taste. You can eliminate most of it by heating
it to just below the softening point in a standard oven for a couple of
hours.
Good distilled water is very difficult to find. Try drug stores. Usually
brands made by pharmaceutical companies tend to be better quality and
more uniform. If you have the money, spend about $50 and get a Hanna
98308 PWT (Pure Water Tester). This is invaluable for testing dw quality
- look for water with 0.6uS to 1.2 uS initial conductivity.
The best place to get a Hanna is from Trem Williams at Silvergen. He is
the West Coast distributor and knows all the problems you may encounter:
http://www.silvergen.com/ppm_meter.htm
The meters come with a certificate of calibration and hold the
calibration pretty well.
Do not get a TDS meter. These have internal correction factors to convert
from uS to ppm. However, they are intended for use with many different
kinds of water, such as sea water, drinking water, sewage effluent, etc.
The kinds of ions and the correction factors change with each
application, so you have no idea what it will read with the silver and
hydroxyl ions found in cs. Also, the TDS meter has a full-scale range of
999 ppm, which puts pure water below the bottom digit so you can't use it
to find good dw.
Get a cheap laser pointer to measure Tyndall. This is scattering caused
by sub-micron particles of silver hydroxide. Red pointers have a
wavelength of 635 or 650 nm, so the minimum particle size you can detect
will be about 63 nm. Turning the lights out vastly increases the
detection limit as your pupils dialate.
You may see brilliant pinpoints of light. These are not reflections from
crystals of silver, since elemental silver cannot be generated by
electrolysis. They are not present in dw, but do show up as soon as
you pour dw into your container. They are simply bits of room dust.
When you are ready, fill the container and install the lid. Apply 350uA
from a constant current source with 30 volts compliance. Monitor the
voltage across the cell with a high impedance voltmeter and stop the brew
when the voltage plateaus. Here is a typical run:
------------------------------------------------------------------------ DW measures 0.6uS. Faint Tyndall in dark room. Some sparklers.
A is anode
Sun Mar 13, 2005, 07:13:45 pm 22.5V
Sun Mar 13, 2005, 09:46:03 pm 8.8V
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 12:47:37 am 3.8V
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 02:22:28 am 3.0V
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 04:07:56 am 2.6V <- Very small trace of Tyndall
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 11:02:15 am 2.0V <- 15.0uS Very faint Tyndall
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 04:23:05 pm 1.78V <- Faint Tyndall, some sparklers
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 04:47:02 pm 1.87V <- starting to rise
Measures 15.6uS. Cleaned electrodes. swapped A and B, restarted brew.
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 06:25:58 pm 1.52V
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 07:41:52 pm 1.55V <- measures 20.1uS
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 07:48:57 pm 1.56V <- watching it closely
Mon Mar 14, 2005, 08:52:27 pm 1.62V
Terminated run. Very slight Tyndall. Measures 17uS
------------------------------------------------------------------------Your results will differ, and you may get readings of 15uS to 22uS
depending on the quality of the dw and many other factors. It will also
change from run to run, and each time you start a new bottle of dw.
You can calculate the amount of silver released with the Faraday
equations. Here are the equations for a simplified version:
Hours = (uS * Litres) / (F * I)
I = (uS * Litres) / (F * Hours)
Litres = (F * I * Hours) / uS
uS = (F * I * Hours) / Litres
where
F = 4024
Hours = brew time
I = current in Amperes
Litres = volume of dw
uS = PWT reading (1uS = 1ppm)
Here's an example calculation. Suppose you have a current of 342
microamperes and a volume of 1 Litre. How long will it take to
liberate 20ppm of silver?
We insert the desired values in the Hours equation:
Hours = (uS * Litres) / (F * I)
Hours = (20 * 1) / (4024 * 342e-6)
= 14.5326869
It will take 14.5 hours.
You may see a very thin stream coming from one electrode and pointing to
the other, with a small amount of tan/brown silver oxide mist in the
vicinity. This is an ion channel that sometimes occurs and effectively
short-circuits the cell. Discard the cs and start over. Stirring with a
straw attached to a small motor from a cassette tape drive will prevent
these. Use hot glue to assemble and hold the motor on the lid. A small
current source or series resistor will set the desired rpm.
During the brew, the electrodes may show signs of darkening with silver
oxide, or you may get some spanish moss hanging from the cathode. It is
not necessary to remove it, but you can wipe the electrodes with tissue.
Swapping the electrodes each brew will also clean them since the cathode
electrode has plenty of OH- ions that will aggressively attack and remove
just about anything.
Do not use scotch brite to try to get a shiny appearance. The anode
electrode will get a gray appearance after use due to microscopic bumps
and pits from the electrolysis process.
You can verify the quality of your cs with a simple salt test. Pour 1/2
inch into a 3 oz shot glass and add a few grains of pickling salt. You
should see a pale white cloud in a few minutes as the salt dissolves.
Pour the cs into a clean glass container, such as a soft drink bottle.
Cheap glass from China can release contaminants and ruin your cs.
To use the cs, pour some into a separate shot glass such as 1 oz or 3 oz,
then hold it in your mouth for ten minutes. Either swallow it or spit it
out afterwards.
Do not drink directly from the main container - your saliva will
contaminate the cs and turn it purple.
If you get a cut or burn, place the pad of a bandage over the wound and
keep it saturated with cs. You will find it heals much faster and leave
no scar.
If you get pinkeye, use a dropper and apply cs to both eyes. Repeat as
necessary. The pinkeye should disappear in 4 to 6 hours.
If you get a sore throat, take a normal dose and repeat in 4 to 6 hours.
The sore throat should disappear overnight.
You can take the cs as often as you like, but usually a maintenance dose
every 3 or 4 days will keep the bugs away. Watch out for stomach upset
that may be caused by initial sensitivity or herxheimer effect. This is
rare, but if it happens, wait for a while and try again.
This is just a brief introduction and I probably left out many things.
You can get more information and help from the following silver groups:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/colloidalsilver2/messages
and
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html
Now you can enjoy a lifetime of good health!
Best Wishes,
Mike Monett
Mark Jones
> Mark Jones wrote:
>
>
>> I doubt very much that CS would have any impact whatsoever for headaches.
>
> Ie you dont know. I've never heard of that one before, but will try it some
> day.
Exactly. Apparently Mike has a special kind of headache. We've been hearing a
lot about indoor molds lately.
No offense Mike, but are you a hypochondriac?
>> There does appear to be some evidence of ionic silver dispatching bacteria,
>>and probably a wide array of them at that,
>
> good good, because that establishes some important ground concepts.
>
>> but I have yet to see any proof that viruses are affected. If that were the
>> case, why hasn't someone taken over this market and made trillions as a
>> cure for the common cold? Hmm.
>
> There is no business model to make any significant money, let alone
> trillions.
No money in a cure for the common cold??? Even if only at startup, before all
the little fish catch on. "Cure for common cold, $100..." People already line up
in droves waiting for their $50 flu-shot...
>
> 1. The company would have to start by funding research, which costs.
>
> 2. Given the level of public miseducation about cs etc, it would all be an
> uphill battle, requiring marketing money too.
>
> 3. And wheres the cash cow? There is none. Cs is not patentable, nor a trade
> secret, nor does it require anything more than 10 bucks of kit to make. Every
> tom dick and harry will make it, and do so without the huge costs already
> borne by the company. Its a business non starter.
>
> 4. Hence no marketing, no expensive research, etc.
>
If #3 were true and CS is so great, why isn't every Tom, Dick, and Harry making
CS? Perhaps there is little talk of CS, but if it were true, why not blare it
out on the evening news?
>> It's all a little sketchy. Shingles, another virus. Warts? Topical
>> removal of warts with CS? I seriously doubt that...
>
> Effective Topical treatment of warts is long established. Topical Acetic acid
> is used today, and was used as far back as the 30s, and works very well. No
> mystery there.
>
Aaaha. I tried acetic acid. Did not work. I used it until there was a hole in
my finger big enough to stick a pencil eraser into. Hurt like hell. Wart grew
back. I was PISSED. Twe weeks covered in duct tape though, and the wart fell
out, and has been gone ever since. :>
Some things sound corny, but work, like duct tape and warts. Some things sound
good, like the $2000 speaker cables which promise "depth of sound never before
heard...", but are quacks. When someone tries to make CS sound so promising and
effective, it actually puts it in a bad light. That is why we need hard
evidence. Nobody is going to take CS seriously until the FDA says "we've been
forced to acknowledge that CS does indeed have medicinal value..." Not like that
will ever happen.
>> I'd like to belive CS was some "miracle wonder drug" but so far, it
>> sounds like hogwash
>
> to be more exact, it sounds like other than what youve been led to believe.
>
> But you have a point: in the absence of fully hard proven facts, you
> associate it with other similar claims, most of which turned out to be snake
> oil. Understandable, but not really proof of anything.
>
> To be more accurate we should say that some of such claims of
> antibacterial.fungal/viral properties of various odds and ends have turned
> out to be true before, though most have not.
>
Exactly. If CS actually dispatches virii, why cannot a mega-dose be taken to
cure AIDS? Or Herpes? It seems to me, that the "people in the know", would
definately have tried such a thing unless there was a good reason not to.
>> - no hard evidence,
>
> thats the number 1 problem. There is no business model to pay for hard
> evidence. There are various studies, but the sources, methods etc are
> basically unknown and thus uncertain.
>
>
>> lots of assumptions.
>
> what assumptions? Who is making them? It either works or doesnt, its really
> that simple in principle. These discussions are solely for those of you who
> are too lazy to do the experiment and find out. And imho will never convince.
> It costs $10CDN to go find out.
>
> NT
I was thinking of actually trying CS, after all this talk and contreversy. My
findings would be reported accurately, of course. I'd like to make a few CS
generators and hand them out to friends, with the only instructions given that
as soon as they think they might be getting sick to use the generator to make
some "stuff" and take as directed, writing each use and result in a log book.
Then tally the results and determine if there really is any truth to the claim
of dispatching virii. (Thanks for the bibliography Mike, I'll look into those.)
In regards to the actual generation of CS, is there a reason why AC current is
not used? That would seem to eliminate the "polarized" effects. Might it reduce
the ion-channelling as well? And adding a bubbler would seem to be an
alternative to the stirring rod.
I'm confused about cleaning the electrodes - if they pit, is cleaning needed or
will simple rinsing suffice? I suppose cleaning would be unneccesary if AC is used?
Well I'll shut up now. :)
-Mark
big...@meeow.co.uk
> big...@meeow.co.uk wrote:
> >> but I have yet to see any proof that viruses are affected. If that
were the
> >> case, why hasn't someone taken over this market and made trillions
as a
> >> cure for the common cold? Hmm.
> > There is no business model to make any significant money, let alone
> > trillions.
> No money in a cure for the common cold???
Feel free to suggest a business model. If you come up with one, youre a
genius. Or if you have one, feel free to go into business.
> Even if only at startup, before all
> the little fish catch on. "Cure for common cold, $100..." People
already line up
> in droves waiting for their $50 flu-shot...
Everyone will catch on on day 1 Mark, the company wouldnt sell a thing.
No-one buys a $100 product when it sits next to an identical $2 one.
> > 1. The company would have to start by funding research, which
costs.
> >
> > 2. Given the level of public miseducation about cs etc, it would
all be an
> > uphill battle, requiring marketing money too.
> >
> > 3. And wheres the cash cow? There is none. Cs is not patentable,
nor a trade
> > secret, nor does it require anything more than 10 bucks of kit to
make. Every
> > tom dick and harry will make it, and do so without the huge costs
already
> > borne by the company. Its a business non starter.
> >
> > 4. Hence no marketing, no expensive research, etc.
> If #3 were true and CS is so great, why isn't every Tom, Dick, and
Harry making
> CS?
Look around you at what people believe. Look at the lack of convincing
studies. Not difficult to see why. You could simply rephrase the
question as: why arent you? Or: why weren't you 2 weeks ago?
Bear in mind very few people get into a discussion about it. Most take
one look, make assumptions, decide to ignore it, and go do the
housework.
Since it does work so well, I suspect its one of those things that will
gradually spread, thanks mainly to the net. But as we see, people are
more than just sceptical about it, and very very few are prepaerd to do
the experiement. We dismiss cs because we've all heard these sorts of
claims before, over and over and over, like a broken record. Wild snake
oil claims are a well worn cliche.
> Perhaps there is little talk of CS, but if it were true, why not
blare it
> out on the evening news?
why do you think
> >> It's all a little sketchy. Shingles, another virus. Warts? Topical
> >> removal of warts with CS? I seriously doubt that...
> >
> > Effective Topical treatment of warts is long established. Topical
Acetic acid
> > is used today, and was used as far back as the 30s, and works very
well. No
> > mystery there.
> Aaaha. I tried acetic acid. Did not work. I used it until there was
a hole in
> my finger big enough to stick a pencil eraser into. Hurt like hell.
Wart grew
> back. I was PISSED.
This doesnt change the point any, topical treatments are established
and effective. That doesnt mean theyve never ever failed.
> Some things sound corny, but work, like duct tape and warts. Some
things sound
> good, like the $2000 speaker cables which promise "depth of sound
never before
> heard...", but are quacks. When someone tries to make CS sound so
promising and
> effective, it actually puts it in a bad light.
I know what you mean. We have the stereotype well established, and cs
carries that same story on the face of it. But what can you do? Lying
about it is no way forward either. One can either state the facts and
expect the reactions, or shut up.
> That is why we need hard
> evidence. Nobody is going to take CS seriously until the FDA says
"we've been
> forced to acknowledge that CS does indeed have medicinal value..."
We do indeed.
> Not like that will ever happen.
It might. There is already at least one organisation now involved in
testing alternative remedies, and finding positive rsults.
http://www.agora-inc.com/reports/HSI/W6HSF109/
Note I know nothing about the org, or their quality of work, its just
an example that there is a business model emerging.
Then theres the work of the occasional rogue genius like Paul Clayton.
So it may yet.
> > To be more accurate we should say that some of such claims of
> > antibacterial.fungal/viral properties of various odds and ends have
turned
> > out to be true before, though most have not.
> Exactly. If CS actually dispatches virii, why cannot a mega-dose be
taken to
> cure AIDS? Or Herpes?
What makes you say it cant? Just assumptions again, about the way
people work. People die day in day out with the information on how to
save their lives right in front of them. The reason is simple, people
go on assumption, and are routinely not able to comprehend situations
well enough to work out what the solution is. This basic human
characteristic is one of the main reasons few are really wealthy.
Despite all the examples of how to do it around them, they still cant
work it out.
With medical treatments there are also other issues that are involved,
medical research is not a clean clear field.
We dont know if it will treat hiv or not. There are people that survive
hiv against the odds, imho the (sometimes oddball) things they do
should be looked at more closely. Use of cs is one of those things.
http://members.tripod.com/colloidalsilver_aids/my_story.htm
Until we get some more solid evidence, with what is known about cs all
we can say is its possible, if not very likely. Add in the ease and
minimal cost and it has to be worth trying.
> It seems to me, that the "people in the know", would
> definately have tried such a thing unless there was a good reason not
to.
1. see above. Have 'people in the know' tested every snake oil claim?
No. So why would they test this one, when it looks exactly the same?
2. see the business model, or absence of one. Say youre the boss of a
huge corporation making billions out of antibiotics. Are you going to
spend a small fortune on research that has only one outcome, to destroy
your business? Or do businesses generally choose to fund research that
promises profit? Its a nonstarter.
One body that does stand to gain from such research is the NHS. Not
just with cs but many other things. Its about time they pulled their
finger out, but the NHS is an organisation of pretty poor competence.
> >> lots of assumptions.
> >
> > what assumptions? Who is making them? It either works or doesnt,
its really
> > that simple in principle. These discussions are solely for those of
you who
> > are too lazy to do the experiment and find out. And imho will never
convince.
> > It costs $10CDN to go find out.
> I was thinking of actually trying CS, after all this talk and
contreversy. My
> findings would be reported accurately, of course. I'd like to make a
few CS
> generators and hand them out to friends, with the only instructions
given that
> as soon as they think they might be getting sick to use the generator
to make
> some "stuff" and take as directed, writing each use and result in a
log book.
> Then tally the results and determine if there really is any truth to
the claim
> of dispatching virii.
Your friends will dismiss you as a quack and a complete nut. The
pattern is clear enough.
You can assess it on your own. Take a whole series of situations in
which the expected outcome is predictable (eg fever, abscess, etc etc),
take the cs, and estimate the probabilites that the outcomes would have
happened without cs, and thus the probability of cs having made a
difference. String many of these together and the odds for the cs
working are too high to not take seriously.
This is one reason people are so polarised on cs: the ones that use it
swear by it due to results, those that havent say quack quack.
Its not double blind, nor is it controlled. All it can give you is an
approximate probability. But thats good enough for the job.
> In regards to the actual generation of CS, is there a reason why AC
current is
> not used?
ac does not produce electrolysis.
> the ion-channelling as well? And adding a bubbler would seem to be an
> alternative to the stirring rod.
good idea, might try that. I've never had ion channelling, but it would
be good to find a faster method, 5 hours is a slow process.
> I'm confused about cleaning the electrodes - if they pit, is
cleaning needed or
> will simple rinsing suffice? I suppose cleaning would be unneccesary
if AC is used?
I've not cleaned mine much, and I get plenty of Tyndall and good
results. A wipe with paper is all I do. The process breaks down the
surface anyway, so I doubt cleaning is needed.
Once evidence for its effectiveness is established more firmly, I guess
the next step would be to look at all the variations in method and
assess each one. At this point we're almost still in the age of
witchcraft in that area, with each maker having their own technique and
tweaks, and offering sometimes differing explanations. But what matters
is always the same: current thru silver in water.
NT
Mike Monett
>>> I doubt very much that CS would have any impact whatsoever for
>>> headaches.
>> Ie you dont know. I've never heard of that one before, but will
>> try it some day.
> Exactly. Apparently Mike has a special kind of headache. We've
> been hearing a lot about indoor molds lately.
> No offense Mike, but are you a hypochondriac?
I've never been sick in my life. I hate doctors and don't go near
hospitals - the waiting rooms are full of sick people who share
their germs.
I had a previous exposure to mold that set the stage. I moved to
Ottawa, Canada to promote the Binary Sampler:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
I found a house at 175 Greenbank Rd, Nepean, K2H-5V6, that seemed
ideal. It had plenty of room to set up a lab and was close to all
the tech companies.
I had inspected the basement for black mold before signing the
lease, but I began to get sick in January when winter set in and all
the windows were closed. It turned out the basement was full of a
gray/white mold or fungus that was growing on the bare concrete
walls. It was the same color as the concrete and invisible unless
you shone a light behind it and looked toward the light.
I tried to find another place to move, but nobody moves in Ottawa in
the middle of winter. There was simply nothing available.
I tired killing the mold with bleach - it grew back in a few days. I
tried painting the concrete with antifungal paint - it grew back
right through the paint.
The headaches started in January/February, but I was sure they would
go away as soon as I found another place to live. Eventually I did
move, but the headaches got worse. It turns out I had become
hypersensitive to the mold/fungus that grows in ordinary clothes.
Here's an example:
http://fungus.org.uk/images/mildew.jpg
Taken from "Microscopic Mold Talking rot...and mildew"
http://fungus.org.uk/nwfg/rot.htm
and another example:
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2001/109-8/forumfig_fibers.JPG
Taken from "Clothing Spreads Aspergillus Spores"
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2001/109-8/forum.html#cloth
As far as I can determine, the condition is permanent. It is
debilitating without high-ionic cs (and fresh broccoli.)
> In regards to the actual generation of CS, is there a reason why
> AC current is not used? That would seem to eliminate the
> "polarized" effects. Might it reduce the ion-channelling as well?
Good thinking, but it turns out AC is a very inefficient method of
generating silver ions. You have just released a cloud of ions into
solution, when the voltage reverses and you now generate the
opposite species.
You now have two clouds mixed together at both electrodes. This
produces silver hydroxide:
Ag+ + OH- --> AgOH
which is insoluble, inert, and has no biological value.
Some people use neon sign transformers which are current limited at
20 or 30mA. The high voltage tends to move the previous cloud of
ions away from the electrodes and produces a bit less hydroxide.
However, the same high voltage brings them right back on the next
half-cycle, so the clouds go through each other and generate
hydroxides as above.
> And adding a bubbler would seem to be an alternative to the
> stirring rod.
A bubbler is one of the least desirable ways of stirring cs.
Normally there is a small amount of carbon dioxide in solution. This
combines with the silver ions to form silver carbonate, but the
amount lost is very small.
If you bubble air through the solution, you add more CO2 which goes
into solution and makes more silver carbonate.
Also, despite very good filters, you add room dust and various
spores and bacteria to the cs. Why contaminate it with the stuff you
are trying to kill?
Very good questions, Mark. That is how progress is made with cs!
Best Wishes,
Mike Monett
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
>> 3. And wheres the cash cow? There is none. Cs is not patentable, nor a
>> trade secret, nor does it require anything more than 10 bucks of kit to
>> make. Every tom dick and harry will make it, and do so without the huge
>> costs already borne by the company. Its a business non starter.
>>
>> 4. Hence no marketing, no expensive research, etc.
> If #3 were true and CS is so great, why isn't every Tom, Dick, and
> Harry making
> CS? Perhaps there is little talk of CS, but if it were true, why not
> blare it out on the evening news?
Because there's no money in it for Big Pharma. Anybody can make it in
their kitchen/bathroom/garage/basement/lab with stuff from the market that
costs maybe ten bucks.
Have you noticed that if you buy cigarettes from a tobacco company, it
will kill you, but if you buy OTC nicotine from Big Pharma, it will save
your life? Or at least your soul?
Feh.
Rich
Rich The Newsgropup Wacko
>>> Mark Jones wrote:
> >>> I doubt very much that CS would have any impact whatsoever for
> >>> headaches.
> >> Ie you dont know. I've never heard of that one before, but will try
> >> it some day.
> > Exactly. Apparently Mike has a special kind of headache. We've
> > been hearing a lot about indoor molds lately.
> > No offense Mike, but are you a hypochondriac?
> I've never been sick in my life. I hate doctors and don't go near
> hospitals - the waiting rooms are full of sick people who share
> their germs.
> I had a previous exposure to mold that set the stage. I moved to
> Ottawa, Canada to promote the Binary Sampler:
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
> I found a house at 175 Greenbank Rd, Nepean, K2H-5V6, that seemed
> ideal. It had plenty of room to set up a lab and was close to all the
> tech companies.
> I had inspected the basement for black mold before signing the
> lease, but I began to get sick in January when winter set in and all the
> windows were closed. It turned out the basement was full of a
> gray/white mold or fungus that was growing on the bare concrete
> walls. It was the same color as the concrete and invisible unless you
> shone a light behind it and looked toward the light.
> tried painting the concrete with antifungal paint - it grew back
> right through the paint.
So, at this point, did you try to find an exorcist? >;->
Cheers!
Rich
Mark Jones
calling it... please read:
http://www.purestcolloids.com/ionic.htm
-- "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day; give a man a bible, and he'll
kill his neighbor and steal his fish..." MCJ 200309
John Woodgate
silver generator?', on Thu, 7 Apr 2005:
> So... further on my point about the validity of "colloidal silver" as we are
>calling it... please read:
>
> http://www.purestcolloids.com/ionic.htm
>
>
Interesting, but are you for it or agin it?
big...@meeow.co.uk
> So... further on my point about the validity of "colloidal silver" as
we are
> calling it... please read:
>
> http://www.purestcolloids.com/ionic.htm
yet more nonsense about cs.
NT
Rich The Newsgropup Wacko
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Jones <ab...@127.0.0.1> wrote
> (in <RaadncrMz7v...@buckeye-express.com>) about 'Colloidal silver
> generator?', on Thu, 7 Apr 2005:
>
>> So... further on my point about the validity of "colloidal silver" as we
>> are
>>calling it... please read:
>>
>> http://www.purestcolloids.com/ionic.htm
>>
>>
> Interesting, but are you for it or agin it?
I believe that's "fer" it. ;-p
Remember, it is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.
--
Cheers!
Rich
---
#!/usr/bin/bash
echo `fortune`
One reason why George Washington Is held in such veneration: He never blamed his problems On the former Administration. -- George O. Ludcke
Mark Jones
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:34:59 +0100, John Woodgate wrote:
>
>
>>I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Jones <ab...@127.0.0.1> wrote
>>(in <RaadncrMz7v...@buckeye-express.com>) about 'Colloidal silver
>>generator?', on Thu, 7 Apr 2005:
>>
>>
>>>So... further on my point about the validity of "colloidal silver" as we
>>>are
>>>calling it... please read:
>>>
>>>http://www.purestcolloids.com/ionic.htm
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Interesting, but are you for it or agin it?
>
>
> I believe that's "fer" it. ;-p
>
> Remember, it is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.
Aaah, thank god I'm not a sucker then. :)
(The article basically says that ionic silver is NOT colloidal silver, and will
rapidly combine with chlorine in the stomach and blood to form silver chloride -
thus being highly ineffective.)
Wether THAT claim is true or not, who knows. But the chemistry behind it seems
reasonable. Ionic silver + HCl ==> AgCl(s). Particulate silver (not missing the
outer electrons) do not have the same charge states, and thus will not combine
with chlorine as rapidly.
Still, that speaks nothing of its usefulness.
Suddenly, I feel like there are four topics to never bring up in a bar:
Religion, War, Politics, and Colloidal Silver...
-- "Usenet Rule No. 2: Never claim, imply, insinuate, appeal, solicit, inquire,
or pretend to know something that someone else may not. Typically the other
party believes they have superior, exceptional, exclusive, noteworthy,
paramount, or remarkable foreknowledge of said topic, and will surely fight to
the death to prove you wrong..." MCJ 200401
John Woodgate
> Wether THAT claim is true or not, who knows. But the chemistry behind
>it seems reasonable. Ionic silver + HCl ==> AgCl(s). Particulate silver
>(not missing the outer electrons) do not have the same charge states,
>and thus will not combine with chlorine as rapidly.
You don't have free chlorine in your stomach! You have HCl, hydrochloric
acid. Metallic silver will not displace hydrogen from HCl. At all.
Rich The Newsgropup Wacko
> Rich The Newsgropup Wacko wrote:
>> Remember, it is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.
>
> Aaah, thank god I'm not a sucker then. :)
You're Welcome. >;->
> (The article basically says that ionic silver is NOT colloidal silver,
> and will
> rapidly combine with chlorine in the stomach and blood to form silver
> chloride - thus being highly ineffective.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is kinda unique, isn't it? ;-P ;-P ;-P
Kinda like pimple cream for retarded people?
> -- "Usenet Rule No. 2: Never claim, imply, insinuate, appeal, solicit,
> inquire, or pretend to know something that someone else may not. Typically
> the other party believes they have superior, exceptional, exclusive,
> noteworthy, paramount, or remarkable foreknowledge of said topic, and will
> surely fight to the death to prove you wrong..." MCJ 200401
So, are you going to submit this for a modquote? When I repeat it, do you
want me to include any more attribution beyond 'MCJ 200401'?
Thanks!
Rich
------
As Gen. de Gaulle occassionally acknowledges America to be the daughter
of Europe, so I am pleased to come to Yale, the daughter of Harvard. --
J.F. Kennedy
Rich The Newsgropup Wacko
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Jones <ab...@127.0.0.1> wrote
> (in <LrmdnaOtaee...@buckeye-express.com>) about 'Colloidal silver
> generator?', on Thu, 7 Apr 2005:
>
>> Wether THAT claim is true or not, who knows. But the chemistry behind
>>it seems reasonable. Ionic silver + HCl ==> AgCl(s). Particulate silver
>>(not missing the outer electrons) do not have the same charge states, and
>>thus will not combine with chlorine as rapidly.
>
> You don't have free chlorine in your stomach! You have HCl, hydrochloric
> acid. Metallic silver will not displace hydrogen from HCl. At all.
Well, slow down a second - Mark Jones was talking about ionic silver, the
Ag+ ion, not metallic silver, albeit it'd be interesting to see what
happens to silver metal when aqueous HCl is poured over it - hmmm, maybe
the chemistry has something to do with the silver-zinc battery - but I
digress. Ionic silver should be just as happy as any other ion to interact
with the H+ ions (the way it was taught to me, that would be H3O+) and
Cl- ions - what's the other cation that's in solution to keep the silver
ionic before you drink it? Nitrate? Cool - from AgNO3 and HCl you get
AgCl and HNO3. Drink silver nitrate and turn your stomach acid into
nitric!
Don't sell that cow! %-}
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
xemacs-21.4.8 it's not just an editor it's another waste of disk space From: Chris Sorenson
Mark Jones
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:42:12 -0400, Mark Jones wrote:
>
>
> So, are you going to submit this for a modquote? When I repeat it, do you
> want me to include any more attribution beyond 'MCJ 200401'?
>
Thanks for the offer, but nobody cares who I am. So further details are
unneccesary.
Michael A. Terrell
>
>
> -- "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day; give a man a bible, and he'll
> kill his neighbor and steal his fish..." MCJ 200309
Gee, Mark, I've had Bibles most of my 50+ years. How far behind am I
on my quota since I've never killed anyone, no matter how much they
needed it?
--
Former professional electron wrangler.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
John Woodgate
<wa...@example.com> wrote (in
<pan.2005.04.08....@example.com>) about 'Colloidal silver
generator?', on Fri, 8 Apr 2005:
>On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:55:23 +0100, John Woodgate wrote:
>
>> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Jones <ab...@127.0.0.1> wrote
>> (in <LrmdnaOtaee...@buckeye-express.com>) about 'Colloidal silver
>> generator?', on Thu, 7 Apr 2005:
>>
>>> Wether THAT claim is true or not, who knows. But the chemistry behind
>>>it seems reasonable. Ionic silver + HCl ==> AgCl(s). Particulate silver
>>>(not missing the outer electrons) do not have the same charge states, and
>>>thus will not combine with chlorine as rapidly.
>>
>> You don't have free chlorine in your stomach! You have HCl, hydrochloric
>> acid. Metallic silver will not displace hydrogen from HCl. At all.
>
>Well, slow down a second - Mark Jones was talking about ionic silver, the
>Ag+ ion, not metallic silver,
No, he says:
>>>Particulate silver
>>>(not missing the outer electrons) do not have the same charge states, and
>>>thus will not combine with chlorine as rapidly.
Particulate silver is metallic silver.
> albeit it'd be interesting to see what
>happens to silver metal when aqueous HCl is poured over it
No, it wouldn't be interesting - nothing happens, as I said.
> - hmmm, maybe
>the chemistry has something to do with the silver-zinc battery - but I
>digress. Ionic silver should be just as happy as any other ion to interact
>with the H+ ions (the way it was taught to me, that would be H3O+) and
>Cl- ions - what's the other cation that's in solution to keep the silver
>ionic before you drink it? Nitrate?
There isn't supposed to be ANY ionic silver in colloidal silver
solution.
>Cool - from AgNO3 and HCl you get
>AgCl and HNO3. Drink silver nitrate and turn your stomach acid into
>nitric!
>
Yes, that reaction goes because the AgCl is insoluble and precipitates
out. However, the owner of the stomach wouldn't 'go' after the
experience.
Paul Burke
>
> Suddenly, I feel like there are four topics to never bring up in a bar:
> Religion, War, Politics, and Colloidal Silver...
Five things. You should never bring up beer in a bar. Wait till you get
outside.
Mark Jones
> Mark Jones wrote:
>
>>
>>-- "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day; give a man a bible, and he'll
>>kill his neighbor and steal his fish..." MCJ 200309
>
>
>
> Gee, Mark, I've had Bibles most of my 50+ years. How far behind am I
> on my quota since I've never killed anyone, no matter how much they
> needed it?
>
Two words: Holy War. It's still going on to this day; ask the Al-Quida for
instance. What better way to wage war than with God on your side? That really
gets your blood pumping and "spirits lifted," ready to die for "your cause."
Today it still endures; we hear it more along the lines of "God, please bless
our troops and bring them home safely."
In the ages past, the Church was an omnipotent power, even surpassing Kings in
most cases. So religion was used as a tool in the medieval era to A) manipulate
people and B) wage war. If the church dictated that you and your family were to
die invading some country, then that is exactly what happened, and you did so
because GOD demanded it.
It is that astonishing naivety which I was trying to conceptualize in my
tagline. Perhaps there is room for clarification.
John Woodgate
>Today it still endures; we hear it more along the lines of "God, please
>bless our troops and bring them home safely."
Yes, well, it's watered down to align with current Christian ethos. The
plea is not for the troops to kill the maximum number of enemy, which is
what you get from the Old Testament. ('Saul has slain his thousands, but
David his tens of thousands.')
Mike Monett
[...]
> There isn't supposed to be ANY ionic silver in colloidal silver
> solution.
[...]
> Regards, John Woodgate
John, all colloidal silver products produced by electrolysis contain silver
ions. For example, Franks's Mesosilver has an ionic concentration of 3.9ppm.
See his lab report at
http://www.silver-colloids.com/Reports/cpr09/cpr_09.html
Other products, such as Mild Silver Protein (MSP), Silver Acetate, and so on,
are silver compounds and are almost completely ineffective as
antibacterial/antifungal/antiviral agents.
The weak silver ion content is what gives Mesosilver it's rather poor
antibacterial properties. The particles in Mesosilver are inert, as shown in
Steve Quinto's analysis at
Additional supporting data are at
http://tinyurl.com/47ujf
http://tinyurl.com/3mmq2
A typical 3 nines cs generator may produce between 5uS and 10uS,
well-designed constant current cs generators may reach 15uS to 20uS, Trem
William's SG7 can reach 45uS, and my latest double chamber cs generator just
produced a Hanna PWT reading of 74.8uS
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m79426.html
The particles produced in these generators is silver hydroxide, which is
insoluble, inert, and has no biological activity. You can get an idea of the
amount of hydroxide by shining a laser pointer through the solution to check
for Tyndall.
The test is quite sensitive in a completely dark room. The amount of
scattering increases with hydroxide content. However, it only shows particles
larger than about 63nm.
The particles do not affect the conductivity of the solution. A Hanna PWT can
be used to determine the ionic content since 1uS = 1ppm.
However, the PWT also responds to contaminants, such as bleach, vinegar,
ammonia, etc. In order to get confidence the Hanna reading is reasonable, you
need to verify how much silver was liberated during the brew. The Faraday
equation tells you this, but it is somewhat cumbersome due to the unit
conversions needed. I simplified the equations as follows:
Hours = (uS * Litres) / (F * I)
I = (uS * Litres) / (F * Hours)
Litres = (F * I * Hours) / uS
uS = (F * I * Hours) / Litres
where
F = 4024
Hours = brew time
I = current in Amperes
Litres = volume of dw
uS = PWT reading (1uS = 1ppm)
In addition, a simple salt test using canning or pickling salt produces a
pale blue dispersion of silver chloride at 5uS or so. The dispersion turns
whiter as the ion concentration increases.
Does this help?
Mike Monett
John Woodgate
Fri, 8 Apr 2005:
>John Woodgate wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> There isn't supposed to be ANY ionic silver in colloidal silver
>> solution.
>
>[...]
>
>> Regards, John Woodgate
>
>John, all colloidal silver products produced by electrolysis contain
>silver ions.
I carefully wrote 'isn't supposed to' = 'should not' = 'had better not'.
Mike Monett
>
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
> (in <4256C6...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
> Fri, 8 Apr 2005:
> >John Woodgate wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> There isn't supposed to be ANY ionic silver in colloidal silver
> >> solution.
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> Regards, John Woodgate
> >
> >John, all colloidal silver products produced by electrolysis contain
> >silver ions.
>
> I carefully wrote 'isn't supposed to' = 'should not' = 'had better not'.
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate
It is inescapable. Silver ions are released at the anode when an atom
give up an electron and goes into solution. Once it has done so, it
cannot get the electron back except if it manages to reach the cathode
and plate out. But it sticks to the cathode due to Van der Waals force
and does not go into solution again.
Also, we need silver ions to go in the solution. That's the only thing
that kills pathogens. The particles are inert. In the case of silver,
there may be a way to convert them to ions in the body, as the
manufacturers of silverlon and acticoat bandages claim. These products
are recognized by the FDA, so there's some hard evidence for the benefit
of ionic silver.
But it's much more efficient to just make the ionic solution. You can get
a much stronger concentration of ions, and minimize the waste forming
silver hydroxide.
Mike Monett
John Woodgate
Fri, 8 Apr 2005:
>Also, we need silver ions to go in the solution. That's the only thing
>that kills pathogens.
Didn't you just post about silver ions being converted to the insoluble
chloride in the stomach? Or was that someone else?
Mike Monett
>
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
> (in <4256D4...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on
> Fri, 8 Apr 2005:
> >Also, we need silver ions to go in the solution. That's the only thing
> >that kills pathogens.
>
> Didn't you just post about silver ions being converted to the insoluble
> chloride in the stomach? Or was that someone else?
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate
Nah, I've been lurking to see what kind of things people post and how
much of that is traceable to Frank's misinformation.
The truth is very little silver reaches the stomach as ions. If you drink
from a bottle containing cs, it turns purple. The saliva on your tongue
has very similar composition to blood, except it doesn't contain
hemoglobin.
But it contains some 200 different proteins, and about one-third are
metalloproteins. A metalloprotein allows the body to transfer ions to
where they are needed. Hemoglobin is also a metalloprotein, but it
transfers oxygen without combining with it, which would be fatal.
The purple color is clearly not silver chloride, since that substance is
white until it is exposed to light.
The purple color only occurs when silver ions come in contact with saliva
from humans or animals, such as cats. If you add cs to their bowl of
drinking water, it quickly turns purple from the same reaction.
To learn more about metalloproteins, see Fred Peschel's report at
http://www.health2us.com/transport.htm
So you see, John, everyone is against Frank Key. Nobody buys his
arguments on silver chloride.
Steve Quinto and Fred Pschel provide convincing arguments that Mesosilver
doesn't work, ions are the only thing that kills pathogens, and
metalloproteins explain how they enter the body.
Does that help?
Mike Monett
John Woodgate
Fri, 8 Apr 2005:
>Hemoglobin is also a metalloprotein, but it transfers oxygen without
>combining with it, which would be fatal.
I think you should reconsider that. Find out why arterial blood is a
different colour from venous blood.
But that's an aside. If it's silver ions that have the therapeutic
effect, who go to the trouble of making 'colloidal silver'? Why not just
make a very dilute solution of a salt of silver and a weak acid? That
gets you the Ag+ and OH- ions you need.
Rich Grise
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote (in
> <4256EB...@spam.com>) about 'Colloidal silver generator?', on Fri, 8
> Apr 2005:
>
>>Hemoglobin is also a metalloprotein, but it transfers oxygen without
>>combining with it, which would be fatal.
>
> I think you should reconsider that. Find out why arterial blood is a
> different colour from venous blood.
I had the impression that the dissolved O2 molecules are picked up
more or less mechanically by the hemoglobin and just sort of enclosed,
without combining chemically, which is what it sounds like Mike is
referring to. I could see how that difference could change the color.
But what do I know? ;-)
Cheers!
Rich
John Woodgate
wrote (in <pan.2005.04.09....@example.net>) about 'Colloidal
silver generator?', on Sat, 9 Apr 2005:
>I had the impression that the dissolved O2 molecules are picked up more
>or less mechanically by the hemoglobin and just sort of enclosed,
>without combining chemically, which is what it sounds like Mike is
>referring to. I could see how that difference could change the color.
>
>But what do I know? ;-)
Not the difference between 'find out' and 'guess', it seems.
Mark Jones
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <rich...@example.net>
> wrote (in <pan.2005.04.09....@example.net>) about 'Colloidal
> silver generator?', on Sat, 9 Apr 2005:
>
>> I had the impression that the dissolved O2 molecules are picked up
>> more or less mechanically by the hemoglobin and just sort of enclosed,
>> without combining chemically, which is what it sounds like Mike is
>> referring to. I could see how that difference could change the color.
>>
>> But what do I know? ;-)
>
>
> Not the difference between 'find out' and 'guess', it seems.
Still, ionic silver in the presence of HCl would form silver chloride. How then
does any good come from drinking ionic silver, if it just converts immediately
to silver chloride?
An interesting test would be mixing a gallon of 20ppm ionic silver with an
ounce of vomit then checking if any silver ions remain.
John Woodgate
>How then does any good come from drinking ionic silver, if it just
>converts immediately to silver chloride?
The other Mark implies that it never reaches the stomach but forms
purple metalloproteins in the mouth. It's plausible.
Rich The Newsgropup Wacko
Give a man a bible, and you've given him a way to smuggle a gun up on to
the gallows and spring your buddy.
(see "Cat Ballou")
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
Prince Absalom lay with his sister
And bundled and nibbled and kissed her,
But the kid was so tight,
And it was deep night --
Though he shot at the target, he missed her.
(Is there a way to get Pan to quit net-nannying me? I _KNOW_ it's more
than four lines. I _WANT_ it that way!)
Mike Monett
> Mike Monett <n...@spam.com> wrote
>> Hemoglobin is also a metalloprotein, but it transfers oxygen
>> without combining with it, which would be fatal.
> I think you should reconsider that. Find out why arterial blood is
> a different colour from venous blood.
The hemoglobin metalloprotein is a marvel of exquisite design. It
has to transfer oxygen but it cannot bind tightly since it has to
release it when needed. Here's the problem definition and solution:
"Oxygen binds to the iron ion tightly, and if two heme molecules
come together in the presence of oxygen the iron atoms will
oxidize and irreversibly bind to the oxygen."
"This irreversible binding would not be of use in the hemoglobin
molecule because oxygen needs to be released in the tissues. The
globin chain prevents this irreversible binding by folding the
protein around the heme molecule, creating a pocket to isolate the
heme molecule from other heme molecules (Perutz, 1978)."
"Therefore, the globin molecules allow the iron atom to form loose
bonds with the oxygen, and therefore, the ability to bind to
oxygen and then release it into the tissues without becoming
permanently oxidized in the process."
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/Molbio/MolStudents/spring2005/Heiner/hemoglobin.html
Here is a marvellous animation showing how hemoglobin shifts
position as it picks up oxygen:
"Hemoglobin is a remarkable molecular machine that uses motion and
small structural changes to regulate its action. Oxygen binding at
the four heme sites in hemoglobin does not happen simultaneously.
Once the first heme binds oxygen, it introduces small changes in
the structure of the corresponding protein chain. These changes
nudge the neighboring chains into a different shape, making them
bind oxygen more easily. Thus, it is difficult to add the first
oxygen molecule, but binding the second, third and fourth oxygen
molecules gets progressively easier and easier. This provides a
great advantage in hemoglobin function. When blood is in the
lungs, where oxygen is plentiful, oxygen easily binds to the first
subunit and then quickly fills up the remaining ones. Then, as
blood circulates through the body, the oxygen level drops while
that of carbon dioxide increases. In this environment, hemoglobin
releases its bound oxygen. As soon as the first oxygen molecule
drops off, the protein starts changing its shape. This prompts the
remaining three oxygens to be quickly released. In this way,
hemoglobin picks up the largest possible load of oxygen in the
lungs, and delivers all of it where and when needed."
"In this animated figure, the heme group of one subunit, shown in
the little circular window, is kept in one place so that you can
see how the protein moves around it when oxygen binds. The oxygen
molecule is shown in blue green. As it binds to the iron atom in
the center of the heme, it pulls a histidine amino acid upwards on
the bottom side of the heme. This shifts the position of an entire
alpha helix, shown here in orange below the heme. This motion is
propagated throughout the protein chain and on to the other
chains, ultimately causing the large rocking motion of the two
subunits shown in blue."
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/molecules/pdb41_2.html
> But that's an aside. If it's silver ions that have the therapeutic
> effect, who go to the trouble of making 'colloidal silver'? Why
> not just make a very dilute solution of a salt of silver and a
> weak acid? That gets you the Ag+ and OH- ions you need.
> Regards, John Woodgate,
Hi John,
You are right - making good quality Ag(+) is a real pain in the
neck. However, you don't need the OH(-) ions, as my double chamber
cs generator demonstrates:
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m78983.html
The plain ion is needed since silver compounds have significantly
poorer biological effect. For example, silver nitrate has a standard
concentration of 0.5% which translates to 3180 ppm of silver:
http://www.burnsurgery.org/Modules/silver/section3.htm
A simple ionic cs solution of 10 ppm can easily be made with a 3
nines generator and does the same job without risk of tissue damage
or staining.
Mild Silver Protein compounds (MSP) are virtually useless. These are
the products where the FDA complained they discovered bacteria
growing in the gel. They have such high silver concentration there
is a real risk of Argyria.
Other products containing silver citrate are available. Here's one
with a concentration of 100ppm:
"Silver 100 with Opti-Silver utilizes an entirely new approach to
silver ion delivery. It is designed to overcome all the
limitations of other forms of silver. It utilizes a proprietary
method of complexing silver ions with a special form of citrate
that acts as the stabilizer and delivery vehicle."
http://www.silver100.com/details.html
However, the time/kill study shows it has very poor performance.
Scroll down to "1) Antibacterial Time-Kill Study":
http://www.earthbornproducts.com/product.htm
This is even worse than Steve Quinto's results with Mesosilver:
So the shortcuts don't work and can be harmful.
> The other Mark implies that it never reaches the stomach but forms
> purple metalloproteins in the mouth. It's plausible.
There's only one Mark - Mark Jones.
There are several Mikes - I'm the one who has been posting the
information on how to make cs, the silver electrolysis equations,
solubility of silver hydroxide, the Faraday calculations, Fred
Peschel's metalloproteins, Steve Quinto's results with Mesosilver,
Frank Key's misinformation, and so on.
Mike Monett
Mike Monett
[...]
> There are several Mikes - I'm the one who has been posting the
> information on how to make cs, the silver electrolysis equations,
> solubility of silver hydroxide, the Faraday calculations, Fred
> Peschel's metalloproteins, Steve Quinto's results with Mesosilver,
> Frank Key's misinformation, and so on.
I forgot to add if you have any questions or would like more information
on how to get started, I'd be very happy to help.
You really cannot believe how well this stuff works until you see it for
yourself. I was extremely sceptical but my girlfriend finally persuaded
me to try it. The results are just amazing. It will kill the flu virus
and fix a sore throat in 4 to 6 hrs. You can use it internally or
externally. Pinkeye is extremely contageous, but it is no match for cs. A
cold, flu, or any bacterial or viral infection simply disappears.
The Shingles infection is extremely painful, but a good quality cs will
stop it in its tracks. But you have to get it in the first few hours -
every minute counts.
Cuts and burns heal with no scar. I recently got second degree burns on
my left hand and index finger. The skin literally lifted off. I put
ordinary bandages over the open wound and kept the pads saturated with
cs. The pain soon disappeared and I was able to continue working without
discomfort. A week or so later, you could not tell where the damage
occurred.
It is so inexpensive and easy to make everyone should have a simple
generator and know how to use it. Then you can say goodbye to doctor's
bills and prescriptions for antibiotics, and never get another cold or
flu.
And anyone who has tried it will tell you the same thing. It works.
Mike Monett
Michael A. Terrell
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > Mark Jones wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>-- "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day; give a man a bible, and he'll
> >>kill his neighbor and steal his fish..." MCJ 200309
> >
> >
> >
> > Gee, Mark, I've had Bibles most of my 50+ years. How far behind am I
> > on my quota since I've never killed anyone, no matter how much they
> > needed it?
> >
>
> Two words: Holy War. It's still going on to this day; ask the Al-Quida for
> instance. What better way to wage war than with God on your side? That really
> gets your blood pumping and "spirits lifted," ready to die for "your cause."
> Today it still endures; we hear it more along the lines of "God, please bless
> our troops and bring them home safely."
Al-Quida isn't interseted in the Bible, they have their own texts to
follow.
>
> In the ages past, the Church was an omnipotent power, even surpassing Kings in
> most cases. So religion was used as a tool in the medieval era to A) manipulate
> people and B) wage war. If the church dictated that you and your family were to
> die invading some country, then that is exactly what happened, and you did so
> because GOD demanded it.
>
> It is that astonishing naivety which I was trying to conceptualize in my
> tagline. Perhaps there is room for clarification.
John Woodgate
Sat, 9 Apr 2005:
> You are right - making good quality Ag(+) is a real pain in the
> neck. However, you don't need the OH(-) ions, as my double chamber
> cs generator demonstrates:
>
> http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m78983.html
I thought that the reason you didn't use soluble silver salts was that
the associated anion interfered with the action. You must have SOME
anion to balance the positive charges on the Ag+ ions.
>
> The plain ion is needed since silver compounds have significantly
> poorer biological effect. For example, silver nitrate has a standard
> concentration of 0.5% which translates to 3180 ppm of silver:
Once again, you are citing a version of chemistry that must be unique to
you. There is absolutely no reason not to make an AgNO3 aqueous solution
that contains 10 ppm of silver or whatever low concentration you want.
In such a solution, the vast majority of anions are OH-.
Similarly, a very dilute solution of silver citrate is unlikely to
undergo bacterial degradation unless the original water had the
bacterial concentration of an African swamp.
I apologise for the confusion about the names.
Mark Jones
>>
>> Two words: Holy War. It's still going on to this day; ask the Al-Quida for
>>instance. What better way to wage war than with God on your side? That really
>>gets your blood pumping and "spirits lifted," ready to die for "your cause."
>>Today it still endures; we hear it more along the lines of "God, please bless
>>our troops and bring them home safely."
>
>
> Al-Quida isn't interseted in the Bible, they have their own texts to
> follow.
>
>
That is true. But I recall hearing how close their texts are to the bible. They
both instill that "thou shall not kill, steal, covet thy neighbor's wife, etc."
They both are fundamentally about faith and kindness, compassion and
perseverance. That is a good thing. But how can any of it be so corrupted? The
manipulation of the text for Personal Gain is what I meant. How can anyone use
the Qur'an, basically a peaceful text, to say the US are infidels and worthy of
holy war? It says no such thing literally.
The same thing can be done with the Bible, although generally we can't get away
with a "holy war" here anymore. But that doesn't stop Dubya from putting a big
holy cross on the entire war effort, so I guess it still does exist, in a
roundabout way.
I still think god himself should pop in *sometime* and give us a progress
report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
-- "We've advanced technologically too quickly for our mentality. It seems ego
is a bigger problem then first thought; we are still not the center of the
universe." MCJ 20050320
Mark Jones
http://www.natural-immunogenics.com/documentation_detail.php?DocumentID=5
at the bottom it admits that HCl nullifies ionic silver: "Adding HCl to the
silver products, causes the chloride ion to bind the silver ion forming Silver
chloride (AgCl). Since Argentyn23™ is primarily an ionic product there is still
a sufficient number of Ag+ ions left to kill the bacteria." But this is only
when the HCl concentration is so low as to not change all the silver ions -
7ppm. So what is a typical stomach HCl concentration? Turns out it is 1-2pH,
0.01 molar. Keep in mind that true stomach contents have other various ions
(sodium, potassium..) and proteins also.
And in the blood, what is the NaCl and other chloride levels? Perhaps some
testing should be done here as well. Measure the uS of a dilute blood sample,
then throw in a known volume and conductivity of CS, and measure the change in
conductivity, if any.
Perhaps the "herxheimer" reaction = some of the HCl in one's stomach being
consumed to form silver chloride.
If only the ionic silver is effective at killing bacteria, then how can any
internal use be effective? That's the $20,000 question. External use is already
proven and accepted [as for topical burns, cuts, etc - anywhere that chlorine
doesn't exist.]
Mike Monett
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Mike Monett <n...@spam.com>
> wrote
>> You are right - making good quality Ag(+) is a real pain in the
>> neck. However, you don't need the OH(-) ions, as my double
>> chamber cs generator demonstrates:
>> http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m78983.html
> I thought that the reason you didn't use soluble silver salts was
> that the associated anion interfered with the action. You must
> have SOME anion to balance the positive charges on the Ag+ ions.
Not really. The ph will be a little off in distilled water, but the
ion concentration is so low that most ph meters won't be able to
measure it accurately anyway due to the low conductance of the
solution.
Blood and saliva have so many anions they simply swamp the unbalance
from silver ions. The silver ions are quickly taken up by
metalloproteins.
The OH(-) ion is part of the Reactive Ion Species (ROS) which
damages cells. There is a pathway in the body chemistry to
neutralize or destroy it.
So the OH(-) ion is not needed and can be omitted from cs.
>> The plain ion is needed since silver compounds have significantly
>> poorer biological effect. For example, silver nitrate has a
>> standard concentration of 0.5% which translates to 3180 ppm of
>> silver:
> Once again, you are citing a version of chemistry that must be
> unique to you. There is absolutely no reason not to make an AgNO3
> aqueous solution that contains 10 ppm of silver or whatever low
> concentration you want. In such a solution, the vast majority of
> anions are OH-.
There are very few OH(-) ions in distilled water.
I don't know why silver nitrate is not as effective as plain Ag(+),
but it may have something to do with how strongly the silver nitrate
dissociates in solution. Many substances dissociate completely, such
as salt (NaCl). Other ions like to stick together, such as CO2.
The standard method of preventing eye infection in newborns was to
put a couple of drops of 1% silver nitrate in their eyes. This
turned them black, which made it easy for doctors to see which ones
had been treated and which ones were missed.
The damage caused by the silver nitrate prompted health groups to
recommend alternative antibiotics, such as erythromycin:
"Because of the significance of neonatal conjunctivitis, all
hospitals (most required by State law) routinely use silver
nitrate or antibiotic drops, such as erythromycin, in the
newborn's eyes to prevent disease. Silver nitrate is no longer
commonly used and has been mostly replaced by antibiotic eye
drops."
http://www.shands.org/health/information/article/001606.htm
If 10 ppm silver nitrate would do the job, they would use it instead
of 1% and avoid the tissue damage problem.
But ordinary 10ppm ionic cs will easily kill eye infections.
> Similarly, a very dilute solution of silver citrate is unlikely to
> undergo bacterial degradation unless the original water had the
> bacterial concentration of an African swamp.
You are really confusing different topics. First, it is impossible
to make good cs in anything less than the highest quality distilled
water. The silver ion is captured by the anions in poor quality
water and is not available biologically. I am speaking from
experience - I tried and it doesn't work.
Second, the bacteria was found growing in MSP (Mild Silver Protein)
products, not the silver citrate product.
Third, the example of silver citrate was included to show the very
poor time/kill results:
http://www.earthbornproducts.com/product.htm
I included these products to show that silver compounds are much
less effective than plain silver ions.
> I apologise for the confusion about the names.
No problem.
> Regards, John Woodgate
Mike Monett
big...@meeow.co.uk
> Interesting,
>
http://www.natural-immunogenics.com/documentation_detail.php?DocumentID=5
>
> at the bottom it admits that HCl nullifies ionic silver: "Adding HCl
to the
etc
People often try to determine results by looking at hypotheses, which
is a basic mistake. And irrelevant, until after such time as youve
established whether it works or not. Only then does it become of any
real significance.
Once again, the q is just does it work or not. And this is determined
by experiment. You can not determine whether a substance will do x y or
z in the human body on paper, as we are fiendishly complex machines.
Guess, yes, but know, no.
NT
Mike Monett
>
> Interesting,
> http://www.natural-immunogenics.com/documentation_detail.php?DocumentID=5
I use http://tinyurl.com/3qb4v so it won't wrap in the browser.
> at the bottom it admits that HCl nullifies ionic silver: "Adding HCl to the
> silver products, causes the chloride ion to bind the silver ion forming Silver
> chloride (AgCl). Since Argentyn23™ is primarily an ionic product there is still
> a sufficient number of Ag+ ions left to kill the bacteria." But this is only
> when the HCl concentration is so low as to not change all the silver ions -
> 7ppm. So what is a typical stomach HCl concentration? Turns out it is 1-2pH,
> 0.01 molar. Keep in mind that true stomach contents have other various ions
> (sodium, potassium..) and proteins also.
>
> And in the blood, what is the NaCl and other chloride levels? Perhaps some
> testing should be done here as well. Measure the uS of a dilute blood sample,
> then throw in a known volume and conductivity of CS, and measure the change in
> conductivity, if any.
You normally get silver concentrations in the tens of parts per billion in the
bloodstream. This is too low to measure with an Ion Selective Electrode (ISE)
since it may have a similar detection limit, and it has strong interference from
the sodium ion (3500 ppm) in blood.
The silver content can be measured with an atomic absoprtion spectrometer, but
the sample is vaporised in a flame or graphite furnace you don't know if you are
measuring ions, oxides, or elemental particles.
> Perhaps the "herxheimer" reaction = some of the HCl in one's stomach being
> consumed to form silver chloride.
Look further. Herx is completly different - it is caused by the dieoff of
bacteria in your body.
> If only the ionic silver is effective at killing bacteria, then how can any
> internal use be effective? That's the $20,000 question. External use is already
> proven and accepted [as for topical burns, cuts, etc - anywhere that chlorine
> doesn't exist.]
Metalloproteins. See my previous posts to John.
Mike Monett
John Woodgate
Sun, 10 Apr 2005:
> There are very few OH(-) ions in distilled water.
Nevertheless, the vast majority of anions present in an aqueous solution
containing a low concentration of Ag+ are OH-.
>
> I don't know why silver nitrate is not as effective as plain Ag(+),
> but it may have something to do with how strongly the silver nitrate
> dissociates in solution. Many substances dissociate completely, such
> as salt (NaCl). Other ions like to stick together, such as CO2.
Once again, your unique chemistry is exhibited. CO2 is a covalent
compound and does not ionize in water.
>
> The standard method of preventing eye infection in newborns was to
> put a couple of drops of 1% silver nitrate in their eyes. This
> turned them black, which made it easy for doctors to see which ones
> had been treated and which ones were missed.
>
> The damage caused by the silver nitrate prompted health groups to
> recommend alternative antibiotics, such as erythromycin:
>
> "Because of the significance of neonatal conjunctivitis, all
> hospitals (most required by State law) routinely use silver
> nitrate or antibiotic drops, such as erythromycin, in the
> newborn's eyes to prevent disease. Silver nitrate is no longer
> commonly used and has been mostly replaced by antibiotic eye
> drops."
>
> http://www.shands.org/health/information/article/001606.htm
>
> If 10 ppm silver nitrate would do the job, they would use it instead
> of 1% and avoid the tissue damage problem.
>
> But ordinary 10ppm ionic cs will easily kill eye infections.
That is simply impossible. It's the silver that causes the blackening,
not the NO3-. IIRC, the 1% AgNO3 was effective against STDs.
>
> > Similarly, a very dilute solution of silver citrate is unlikely to
> > undergo bacterial degradation unless the original water had the
> > bacterial concentration of an African swamp.
>
> You are really confusing different topics. First, it is impossible
> to make good cs in anything less than the highest quality distilled
> water. The silver ion is captured by the anions in poor quality
> water and is not available biologically. I am speaking from
> experience - I tried and it doesn't work.
I have never suggested otherwise about 'good cs', whatever that really
is. I commented on bacterial attack on very dilute solutions.
>
> Second, the bacteria was found growing in MSP (Mild Silver Protein)
> products, not the silver citrate product.
OK, that no big deal.
>
> Third, the example of silver citrate was included to show the very
> poor time/kill results:
>
> http://www.earthbornproducts.com/product.htm
>
> I included these products to show that silver compounds are much
> less effective than plain silver ions.
Again, this is simply nonsense. You CAN'T have Ag+ without the
corresponding anions. There are no such thing as 'plain silver ions'
without the anions. Except in silver vapour, of course. Think 2000+
degrees C.
Michael A. Terrell
>
> I still think god himself should pop in *sometime* and give us a progress
> report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
Its already on his schedule, but its in his time, not man's.
Something about Armageddon.
Roger Johansson
> > I still think god himself should pop in sometime and give us a
> > progress report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
> Its already on his schedule, but its in his time, not man's.
> Something about Armageddon.
Something like when the sun will explode, and become a red giant.
Armageddon is probably a suitable term for that.
We better get out of here before it happens.
We have been lurking around on this planet for a long time, and now we
know enough about how it will all end.
We can start building giant spaceships and spread out through the
galaxy, to significantly reduce the risks to mankind as a whole.
--
Roger J.
big...@meeow.co.uk
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > Al-Quida isn't interseted in the Bible, they have their own
texts to
> > follow.
> That is true. But I recall hearing how close their texts are to the
bible. They
> both instill that "thou shall not kill, steal, covet thy neighbor's
wife, etc."
> They both are fundamentally about faith and kindness, compassion and
> perseverance. That is a good thing. But how can any of it be so
corrupted? The
> manipulation of the text for Personal Gain is what I meant. How can
anyone use
> the Qur'an, basically a peaceful text, to say the US are infidels and
worthy of
> holy war? It says no such thing literally.
if you can sell the numerous junk goods in the shops today, like 100A
speaker flex, you can sell anything. It doesnt need to add up, people
arent that logical. Logic and reason come from training, and even the
ones that are so trained have plenty of logic limits. Ask any retail
salesman.
> The same thing can be done with the Bible, although generally we
can't get away
> with a "holy war" here anymore. But that doesn't stop Dubya from
putting a big
> holy cross on the entire war effort, so I guess it still does exist,
in a
> roundabout way.
Thou shalt not kill, but god is on your side when you declare war. Its
odd how these things slip past.
> I still think god himself should pop in *sometime* and give us a
progress
> report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
God has. But some dont want to hear it, and some dont know what to
believe.
NT
John Woodgate
<425a8189$1$woehfu$mr2...@news.aros.net>) about 'Colloidal silver
generator?', on Mon, 11 Apr 2005:
>Even if He showed, few would believe Him anyway......
A miracle or two would be convincing, like getting rid of spam and
abolishing politics.
lear...@learning.com
>Thou shalt not kill, but god is on your side when you declare war. Its
>odd how these things slip past.
Actually, the original text does not say "thou shalt not kill." It says
"thou shalt not murder" and there is a huge difference between the two. I
would leave it up to the more wise among us to bother sorting that out.
>> I still think god himself should pop in *sometime* and give us a
>progress
>> report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
Where would you like Him to 'pop in?' CNN? BBC? Iraq? The Vatican? China?
Last time he was purported to have shown up, He wasn't treated all that
kindly, so perhaps we have set up a condition where He will not 'pop in'
because there is no place that would pay Him any attention?
Let's face it, few here would care, and with all the genius and wise
thinkers that inhabit this group, and much of the planet, God would pale
in comparison. Even if He showed, few would believe Him anyway......
Shoot, two thirds of the people here would argue with Him to the death.
<g> Why bother?
JB
Rich The Philosophizer
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich The Philosophizer
> <r...@example.net> wrote (in
> <pan.2005.04.11....@example.net>) about 'Colloidal silver
> generator?', on Mon, 11 Apr 2005:
>>On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:23:24 +0100, John Woodgate wrote:
>>
>>> I read in sci.electronics.design that lear...@learning.com wrote (in
>>> <425a8189$1$woehfu$mr2...@news.aros.net>) about 'Colloidal silver
>>> generator?', on Mon, 11 Apr 2005:
>>>>Even if He showed, few would believe Him anyway......
>>>
>>> A miracle or two would be convincing, like getting rid of spam and
>>> abolishing politics.
>>
>>This is all well and good, until you come up against the snag that He
>>works through People. ;-) Got them pesky Laws of Physics to contend with,
>>too. ;-)
>
> No, we established last month that if a god exists, he cannot be bound by
> the laws of physics or anything else.
Yes, true, and he's not - but 3D reality is, until everyone who "knows
it's true" changes their minds, just like when "everybody knew" that
the Earth was flat, and so on...
Love,
Rich
for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com
Rich The Philosophizer
...
> I still think god himself should pop in *sometime* and give us a
> progress
> report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
He has, but very few people seem to be interested:
http://www.godchannel.com
And, just FYI, his intent _is_ to set things straight, once and for all.
--
Cheers!
lear...@learning.com
at 04:08 PM, Rich The Philosophizer <r...@example.net> said: > "If
outside events trigger in you a feeling of hatred, revenge, or a >wish
> to kill or destroy... you have an opportunity to help move some of that
> asuric essence to its right place. First bring the denial energy into
> yourself... taking responsibility for it rather than seeing it as
> belonging to someone else. Then offer it to Spirit for disposition to
>its
> right place as I've suggested in the page on True Sacrifice."
> - Spirit: http://www.godchannel.com/sept11.html
Geeez, I think they are putting the wrong guy in jail for spamming
newsgroups.
What a pile of crappola, and a prime example of man so desperate that he
invents a god. At least the Romans and the Greeks had gods that made cool
TV shows. No one would want to sit through this for more than 10 secs.
Time to turn the god channel off and go to Nick @ Nite......
JB
Rich The Philosophizer
> Mark Jones wrote:
>>
>> I still think god himself should pop in *sometime* and give us a
>> progress
>> report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
>
> Its already on his schedule, but its in his time, not man's.
> Something about Armageddon.
Try "in process".
"What I can say now is that prophecies of Armageddon, the Apocalypse and
other 'End Times' scenarios are basically correct. The realization of the
Mother's dream is the extraordinary goodness that is behind these
prophecies... and of course the freedom and abundance for all that is
inherent in the Mother's dream will necessarily require much change.
Obviously things on Earth will be very different, and you are now
experiencing some of the changes that are a necessary part of the
process. We'll discuss some of the old prophecies in more detail as the
healing work progresses."
[Question: 'What can you say about the universal forces at play in the
events of last Tuesday? (9/11/01)]
"There are several ways of understanding these events at a transpersonal
level, including a battle between two types of cosmic warriors, or a
battle between the two devils. The best understanding for now, and one
that you can easily incorporate into your healing work is this... world
class asuras are emerging through the growing gaps between those on Earth
who have power and wealth and those who do not. Warriors of all stripes
court the presence of asuras in themselves... because these spirits of
denial can lend the warrior a kind of heartless ferocity that gives them
all the more power to destroy their enemy.
"If outside events trigger in you a feeling of hatred, revenge, or a wish
to kill or destroy... you have an opportunity to help move some of that
asuric essence to its right place. First bring the denial energy into
yourself... taking responsibility for it rather than seeing it as
belonging to someone else. Then offer it to Spirit for disposition to its
right place as I've suggested in the page on True Sacrifice."
- Spirit: http://www.godchannel.com/sept11.html
Cheers!
Rich Grise
> I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <rich...@example.net>
>>or less mechanically by the hemoglobin and just sort of enclosed, without
>>combining chemically, which is what it sounds like Mike is referring to.
>>I could see how that difference could change the color.
>>But what do I know? ;-)
>
> Not the difference between 'find out' and 'guess', it seems.
Well, I was just going by what I "learned" many years ago.
But it seems nobody really knows:
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Hemoglobin/MetalComplexinBlood.html
Oh - here it is:
"The ability of metal ions to coordinate with (bind) and then release
ligands in some processes, and to oxidize and reduce in other processes
makes them ideal for use in biological systems. The most common metal
used in the body is iron, and it plays a central role in almost all
living cells. For example, iron complexes are used in the transport of
oxygen in the blood and tissues.
"Metal-ion complexes consist of a metal ion that is bonded via
"coordinate-covalent bonds" (Figure 1) to a small number of anions or
neutral molecules called ligands. For example the ammonia (NH3) ligand
used in this experiment is a monodentate ligand; i.e., each monodentate
ligand in a metal-ion complex possesses a single electron-pair-donor
atom and occupies only one site in the coordination sphere of a metal
ion. Some ligands have two or more electron-pair-donor atoms that can
simultaneously coordinate to a metal ion and occupy two or more
coordination sites; these ligands are called polydentate ligands. They
are also known as chelating agents (from the Greek word meaning "claw"),
because they appear to grasp the metal ion between two or more
electron-pair-donor atoms. The coordination number for a metal refers to
the total number of occupied coordination sites around the central metal
ion (i.e., the total number of metal-ligand bonds in the complex)."
So, it's not like oxygenated blood has "hemoglobin oxide" in it, or
"rust" - they do seem to differentiate between binding with ligands vs.
oxidizing.
Cheers!
Rich
John Woodgate
>
>> <425a8189$1$woehfu$mr2...@news.aros.net>) about 'Colloidal silver
>> generator?', on Mon, 11 Apr 2005:
>>>Even if He showed, few would believe Him anyway......
>>
>> A miracle or two would be convincing, like getting rid of spam and
>> abolishing politics.
>
>works through People. ;-) Got them pesky Laws of Physics to contend
>with, too. ;-)
No, we established last month that if a god exists, he cannot be bound
by the laws of physics or anything else.
Rich The Philosophizer
That's good! Now give your fear and hatred your loving acceptance, and
it will tell you which Judgements and Denials are keeping you addicted
to your illusion of omniscience.
Love,
Rich The Philosophizer
> I read in sci.electronics.design that lear...@learning.com wrote (in
> <425a8189$1$woehfu$mr2...@news.aros.net>) about 'Colloidal silver
> generator?', on Mon, 11 Apr 2005:
>>Even if He showed, few would believe Him anyway......
>
> A miracle or two would be convincing, like getting rid of spam and
> abolishing politics.
This is all well and good, until you come up against the snag that He
works through People. ;-) Got them pesky Laws of Physics to contend
with, too. ;-)
Cheers!
Rich The Philosophizer
>
>>Thou shalt not kill, but god is on your side when you declare war. Its
>>odd how these things slip past.
>
> Actually, the original text does not say "thou shalt not kill." It says
> "thou shalt not murder" and there is a huge difference between the two. I
> would leave it up to the more wise among us to bother sorting that out.
>
>>> I still think god himself should pop in *sometime* and give us a
>>progress
>>> report. That should set things straight, once and for all.
>
> Where would you like Him to 'pop in?' CNN? BBC? Iraq? The Vatican? China?
> Last time he was purported to have shown up, He wasn't treated all that
> kindly, so perhaps we have set up a condition where He will not 'pop in'
> because there is no place that would pay Him any attention?
>
> Let's face it, few here would care, and with all the genius and wise
> thinkers that inhabit this group, and much of the planet, God would pale
> in comparison. Even if He showed, few would believe Him anyway......
> Shoot, two thirds of the people here would argue with Him to the death.
> <g> Why bother?
Because I want to help with the healing? I want all of the pain and
suffering to end? I want all beings to be free to do what they want, with
whom they want, where they want, when they want? Because _I_ want to
be Free?
--
Love,
John Woodgate
>So, it's not like oxygenated blood has "hemoglobin oxide" in it, or
>"rust" - they do seem to differentiate between binding with ligands vs.
>oxidizing.
The text you cited, beginning with "Metal ion complexes..." is about how
the iron is captured by the four haem units and doesn't say anything at
all about oxygen capture and release.
Here you are:
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0006815.html
In the lungs or gills where the concentration of oxygen is high, oxygen
attaches to haemoglobin to form oxyhaemoglobin. This process effectively
increases the amount of oxygen that can be carried in the bloodstream.
The oxygen is later released in the body tissues where it is at a low
concentration, and the deoxygenated blood returned to the lungs or
gills. Haemoglobin will combine also with carbon monoxide to form
carboxyhaemoglobin, which has the effect of reducing the amount of
oxygen that can be carried in the blood.
lear...@learning.com
>I read in sci.electronics.design that lear...@learning.com wrote (in
><425a8189$1$woehfu$mr2...@news.aros.net>) about 'Colloidal silver
>generator?', on Mon, 11 Apr 2005:
>>Even if He showed, few would believe Him anyway......
>A miracle or two would be convincing, like getting rid of spam and
>abolishing politics.
I don't know, that seems like a lot to ask of God <g>
JB