Somewhat OT: Emails vanishing into a black hole?

[Joerg]

While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
those emails quietly went phut.

Does anyone know what could cause that?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel

Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.

this is
>new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>those emails quietly went phut.
>
>Does anyone know what could cause that?

Maybe their server is messed up.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

[Phil Hobbs]

On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
> those emails quietly went phut.
>
> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>

Lots of email providers don't send bounce messages, but it sounds like
something on their end.

Do other emails mostly get there OK?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Dave Platt]

In article <84smocd8c82sf3daf...@4ax.com>,

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

>>Does anyone know what could cause that?
>
>Maybe their server is messed up.

Distinctly possible. Given that it affected two separate outbound
destinations, and at least one internal destination, it seems likely.

In some cases, the "receive email for forwarding" and "send emails"
parts of the mail server are separate functions. It's entirely
possible for their server to be able to accept emails (either
"inbound" ones from you, or "outbound" ones from their own users), put
them in a queue for delivery, and then never process the queue. The
emails would simply accumulate on the server's disk.

The "courier" mail suite for Linux works this way... the "inbound
SMTP" server and the "mail processor and outbound sender" are two
entirely separate processes. The former can run without having any
errors at all, even if the latter is stopped.

Think of it as "The Post Office is open, still accepting letters and
packages, getting trucks from other cities, but the mail just sits on
the loading dock."

[Klaus Kragelund]

Send one more with reciept acknowledge and tracking and check what comes back.

For Thunderbird you can add an add-in that shows all the points the email travels through

Cheers

Klaus

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>
> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>

Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
distance provider will not let through calls from another.

> this is
>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>
>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>
> Maybe their server is messed up.
>

I think so. They said it must be mine but this is the only company that
it's happening with.

Still just swallowing emails with no error messages whatsoever is
concerning.

[Joerg]

If that system was designed more intelligently there would be an alert
when the first message sits on the dock for more than xx minutes.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-09 13:37, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing
>> has arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent
>> one to them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive
>> either. All those emails quietly went phut.
>>
>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>
>
> Lots of email providers don't send bounce messages, but it sounds like
> something on their end.
>

I believe so. Not sending bounce messages yet not delivering emails is
IMO a serious software design flaw.

This may be one of the reasons why some financial folks stuck to fax. I
also have two machines ready at all times because I do not fully trust
the Internet for urgent or very sensitive stuff.

> Do other emails mostly get there OK?
>

That's what they told me. Though I don't think they can know because
some people who request a quote might just move on instead of call.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-09 13:39, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> Send one more with reciept acknowledge and tracking and check what comes back.
>

I sent with receipt request but nothing ever comes back.

> For Thunderbird you can add an add-in that shows all the points the email travels through
>

Is it this stuff?

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/pointofmail-com-email-tracking/

The first review is very spooky :-)

[Dave Platt]

In article <ev1bba...@mid.individual.net>,

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

>> Think of it as "The Post Office is open, still accepting letters and
>> packages, getting trucks from other cities, but the mail just sits on
>> the loading dock."
>>
>
>If that system was designed more intelligently there would be an alert
>when the first message sits on the dock for more than xx minutes.

Sometimes there is. However, if this is done by the same major
program that's responsible for managing the queue in the first place
(and, commonly, it is) the warnings don't occur if that program isn't
running.

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>
>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>
>
>Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
>distance provider will not let through calls from another.

At home, we still have the old POTS phones, but it's Internet based
now, Comcast cable, free except for renting the modem. It's been
perfectly reliable.

>
>
>> this is
>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>
>> Maybe their server is messed up.
>>
>
>I think so. They said it must be mine but this is the only company that
>it's happening with.
>
>Still just swallowing emails with no error messages whatsoever is
>concerning.

--

[Joerg]

The the IT guys should receive some pep talk :-)

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-09 15:11, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>
>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>
>>
>> Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
>> distance provider will not let through calls from another.
>
> At home, we still have the old POTS phones, but it's Internet based
> now, Comcast cable, free except for renting the modem. It's been
> perfectly reliable.
>

The electrical stuff is all ok. It's the carrier behavior that is less
than ethical. I assume they refuse to work together when there isn't
enough money paid per minute by the originating carrier. What happens is
that I get a fake "Number is not in service blah-blah". Then when
calling from a cell phone or via another LD carrier it miraculously is
in service and the call goes through. I believe that behavior is illegal.

[...]

[rickman]

John Larkin wrote on 8/9/2017 6:11 PM:
> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>
>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>
>>
>> Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
>> distance provider will not let through calls from another.
>
> At home, we still have the old POTS phones, but it's Internet based
> now, Comcast cable, free except for renting the modem. It's been
> perfectly reliable.

It's perfectly reliable until it isn't. Internet goes down a lot more than
POTS. Anytime the Internet service to your home is down an internet phone
is down.

>>> this is
>>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>>>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>>>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>
>>> Maybe their server is messed up.
>>>
>>
>> I think so. They said it must be mine but this is the only company that
>> it's happening with.
>>
>> Still just swallowing emails with no error messages whatsoever is
>> concerning.

Error messages on email may take some time. I think the hand shake only
goes as far as reaching the final server. There is no handshake to let the
sender know you have downloaded the email or have read it... although I
recall some feature where you could let the sender know you had received the
email. When you opened the email Eudora would prompt asking if you wanted
to send a return receipt on some emails.

--

Rick C

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-09 15:20, rickman wrote:
> John Larkin wrote on 8/9/2017 6:11 PM:
>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>
>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
>>> distance provider will not let through calls from another.
>>
>> At home, we still have the old POTS phones, but it's Internet based
>> now, Comcast cable, free except for renting the modem. It's been
>> perfectly reliable.
>
> It's perfectly reliable until it isn't. Internet goes down a lot more
> than POTS. Anytime the Internet service to your home is down an
> internet phone is down.
>

VoIP usually also dies in a power outage. We had a planned one a few
weeks ago but I could be sure clients were still able to reach me.

It is amazing how many people are lost when the power goes. Once I had
to help a neighbor out of the garage because that li'l re button won't
work sans electricity. Pulled the handle, rolled up the door. "Oh! So
how can we close it now?" ... Rolled it down from the inside, pushed
little lever ... PATONK ... "Oh!"

>
>>>> this is
>>>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side,
>>>>> nothing has
>>>>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent
>>>>> one to
>>>>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>>>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe their server is messed up.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think so. They said it must be mine but this is the only company that
>>> it's happening with.
>>>
>>> Still just swallowing emails with no error messages whatsoever is
>>> concerning.
>
> Error messages on email may take some time. I think the hand shake only
> goes as far as reaching the final server. There is no handshake to let
> the sender know you have downloaded the email or have read it...
> although I recall some feature where you could let the sender know you
> had received the email. When you opened the email Eudora would prompt
> asking if you wanted to send a return receipt on some emails.
>

You can always click an option "Return Receipt" and then either a box
shows up at the recipient where he or she can decide whether or not to
honor that request or they have it set up to automatically honor when
requested. However, if they never receive the email that fizzles as well.

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:ev19ch...@mid.individual.net...

> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is new:
> A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts at two
> different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has arrived,
> nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to them. No
> bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All those emails
> quietly went phut.
>
> Does anyone know what could cause that?

Only the email server administrator could tell you.

If that isn't you then ask Inmotion hosting to send you the log showing what
happened to your outbound message.

Sometimes a message is deferred and the server will periodically retry
sending it. You may not get to know about this immediately.

[Joerg]

That would be a lot of effort but ultimately may be the only way to find
out. But not for the incoming messages that never came in.

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev1i5c...@mid.individual.net...

It's easy if you can get access to the server logs. It's true that that may
be hard if you're not running your own email server. The logs should show
whether the service that says they sent to you ever actually connected.

Your messages may possibly have fallen down an anti spam-filter of some
kind.
I have most non-english speaking countries blocked completely from my own
email server to reduce spam and brute force login attempts.

[Martin Brown]

On 09/08/2017 21:24, Joerg wrote:

> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
> those emails quietly went phut.
>
> Does anyone know what could cause that?

I've seen something similar quite recently. Mails vanishing no bounce.

It turned out that the ISP had misconfigured the sending domain so that
a certain way of checking for spam erroneously returns a fail report of
"sender domain does not exist" and so it drops the email on the floor.
(no bounce message since domain apparently does not exist)

Delivery of emails to their domain works OK since that uses a different
way of looking up the DNS record. I can't quite remember all the details
but it showed up when we dug into the DNS and MX records and found
inconsistencies in the ones that were vanishing emails.
(it seems to be a quite recent thing)

I don't have the details on this machine unfortunately so from memory.

It seemed to be pot luck which ones were affected and which were not.
Only some mailservers actually check that the "sending" domain exists
before accepting emails so the effect can be quite confusing.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[David Brown]

On 09/08/17 23:01, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-08-09 13:37, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing
>>> has arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent
>>> one to them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive
>>> either. All those emails quietly went phut.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>
>>
>> Lots of email providers don't send bounce messages, but it sounds like
>> something on their end.
>>
>
> I believe so. Not sending bounce messages yet not delivering emails is
> IMO a serious software design flaw.
>

It is standard practice for malware, spam, etc. Some email servers are
set up without bounces to simplify the process.

Also note that email servers are expected to re-try sending over time.
They can do so for up to about a week. The idea is that it should not
be a problem if the receiver's server is temporarily out of action. So
maybe there will be a bounce message after a few days.

[David Brown]

SPF - Sender Policy Framework - is related source of issues. Some email
receivers insist that the sender has SPF configured correctly, and drop
everything else. For properly configured sending servers run by serious
folk, that's no problem - but there are many servers that are run by
amateurs. So many receivers use correct SPF as a strong indication of
legitimate email (for spam scoring), and incorrect SPF as almost
certainly spam. That of course means that if your server (or your ISP's
server) has DNS records claiming to support SPF, but has got the details
wrong, then lots of receivers will put your emails straight in the spam
can with no bounce.

[Martin Brown]

SPF is an abortion. Plenty of major players get it hopelessly wrong :(

This failure was even more brutal though. Didn't go into the spam can -
it was dropped on the floor with no trace of it ever existing.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-10 02:02, David Brown wrote:
> On 09/08/17 23:01, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-08-09 13:37, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing
>>>> has arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent
>>>> one to them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive
>>>> either. All those emails quietly went phut.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Lots of email providers don't send bounce messages, but it sounds like
>>> something on their end.
>>>
>>
>> I believe so. Not sending bounce messages yet not delivering emails is
>> IMO a serious software design flaw.
>>
>
> It is standard practice for malware, spam, etc. Some email servers are
> set up without bounces to simplify the process.
>

That will result in email as a communications channel to become inferior
to others.

> Also note that email servers are expected to re-try sending over time.
> They can do so for up to about a week. The idea is that it should not
> be a problem if the receiver's server is temporarily out of action. So
> maybe there will be a bounce message after a few days.
>

It's been over a week now and ... nada. Only my own email to them has
been just a couple of days, also no bounce and it never got there.

[...]

[Joerg]

It's a hosting service and IME anything past the (often outsouced) help
desk is usually tough to cajole out of them. I tried that with my
previous host to no avail.

> Your messages may possibly have fallen down an anti spam-filter of some
> kind.

Then I'd expect a bounce message or a presence in their trash folder
(wasn't there).

> I have most non-english speaking countries blocked completely from my own
> email server to reduce spam and brute force login attempts.
>

That renders email an almost useless medium for most people including
myself. A large chunk of my communications isn't in English.

[Joerg]

Could be. I have seen a lot of sloppy IT work lately, at places that
should have better.


>> ... So many receivers use correct SPF as a strong indication of

>> legitimate email (for spam scoring), and incorrect SPF as almost
>> certainly spam. That of course means that if your server (or your ISP's
>> server) has DNS records claiming to support SPF, but has got the details
>> wrong, then lots of receivers will put your emails straight in the spam
>> can with no bounce.
>
> SPF is an abortion. Plenty of major players get it hopelessly wrong :(
>
> This failure was even more brutal though. Didn't go into the spam can -
> it was dropped on the floor with no trace of it ever existing.
>

Soundd like email might have had its day then and I shall keep my fax
equipment in good repair.

[Rob]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 2017-08-10 02:02, David Brown wrote:
>> On 09/08/17 23:01, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-08-09 13:37, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing
>>>>> has arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent
>>>>> one to them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive
>>>>> either. All those emails quietly went phut.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lots of email providers don't send bounce messages, but it sounds like
>>>> something on their end.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I believe so. Not sending bounce messages yet not delivering emails is
>>> IMO a serious software design flaw.
>>>
>>
>> It is standard practice for malware, spam, etc. Some email servers are
>> set up without bounces to simplify the process.
>>
>
> That will result in email as a communications channel to become inferior
> to others.

Email was established as a nonreliable service from the start.
A "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol" was cobbled together to get at least
some mail to the other side while providing some error reporting when
convenient, but there has never been any delivery guarantee.

Serious design errors (like the omission of proper identification of
the true sender of a message) have resulted in terrible abuse of the
system, and in more and more stopgap measures to keep it from falling
apart completely. Unfortunately they have resulted in further decrease
of reliability.

I am very surprised that there has not yet been a company with
substantial market power (Microsoft, Google) that has set up a
completely new mail system that does not suffer from those deficiencies.
Microsoft certainly has been in the position to do that.
(of course they no longer are)

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-10 10:07, Rob wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-08-10 02:02, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 09/08/17 23:01, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-08-09 13:37, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>> On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>>>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing
>>>>>> has arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent
>>>>>> one to them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive
>>>>>> either. All those emails quietly went phut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lots of email providers don't send bounce messages, but it sounds like
>>>>> something on their end.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe so. Not sending bounce messages yet not delivering emails is
>>>> IMO a serious software design flaw.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is standard practice for malware, spam, etc. Some email servers are
>>> set up without bounces to simplify the process.
>>>
>>
>> That will result in email as a communications channel to become inferior
>> to others.
>
> Email was established as a nonreliable service from the start.

So have horseless carriages. Then through more and more technical
refinement they became more reliable that their predecessors.

> A "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol" was cobbled together to get at least
> some mail to the other side while providing some error reporting when
> convenient, but there has never been any delivery guarantee.
>
> Serious design errors (like the omission of proper identification of
> the true sender of a message) have resulted in terrible abuse of the
> system, and in more and more stopgap measures to keep it from falling
> apart completely. Unfortunately they have resulted in further decrease
> of reliability.
>
> I am very surprised that there has not yet been a company with
> substantial market power (Microsoft, Google) that has set up a
> completely new mail system that does not suffer from those deficiencies.
> Microsoft certainly has been in the position to do that.
> (of course they no longer are)
>

The current email system can almost achieve that. Part of it has to do
with IT people or lacking IT skills. Those who have served in the
military or pilots know this rule: There always has to be an
acknowledgment after a message. Always. That alone fixes most of the
issues. IT folks often do not understand this and that is IMO the main
problem. The tools are there and they aren't using them.

[Rob]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> The current email system can almost achieve that. Part of it has to do
> with IT people or lacking IT skills. Those who have served in the
> military or pilots know this rule: There always has to be an
> acknowledgment after a message. Always. That alone fixes most of the
> issues. IT folks often do not understand this and that is IMO the main
> problem. The tools are there and they aren't using them.

I think at least people in the military know that there should be
know acknowledgment to messages from the enemy, as sending that could
cause risks to yourself (e.g. revealing your position).

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev3h1l...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2017-08-09 18:06, John Smith wrote:
>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
>> news:ev1i5c...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2017-08-09 15:54, John Smith wrote:
>>>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ev19ch...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>>>> new:
>>>>> A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts at
>>>>> two
>>>>> different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>>>>> arrived,
>>>>> nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to them.
>>>>> No
>>>>> bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All those
>>>>> emails
>>>>> quietly went phut.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>>
>>>> Only the email server administrator could tell you.
>>>>
>

> That renders email an almost useless medium for most people including
> myself. A large chunk of my communications isn't in English.

Not for most people. I would tailor your email service to reject only
countries you agree to reject, with the option of almost immediate
unblocking should it be required. And then only the remote email service
would be unblocked, not the other 100 or so spambots or hackbots in the
area. If you're going on vacation to a remote country I can make sure you
can access your email from there.

Do you have a need to send/receive email to/from people in countries such as
Vietnam, Turkey, Saudi Arabia?

It may be true that you don't know who will email you or what part of the
world they're in but even if people in those countries need to email you,
many of them are likely to be using providers such as Google or Microsoft so
the servers are in North America. I never block those servers.
And most potential inbound connections directly from those countries are
either spam or brute force login.

Should you already be in communication with people who have email servers in
those countries then I can make sure they are not blocked. Known legitimate
email servers, even if they are in Vietnam, are never blocked.

By tailoring the above to individual clients needs I can usually provide an
email service which has almost no risk of blocking a legitimate email and
has almost zero spam and very low risk of a brute force login attack
succeeding.

This makes me wonder whether your email hosting provider has done something
which accidentaly blocked a legitimate message. There's always a small risk
of blocking a wanted message but the problem of spam and brute force attacks
is getting worse.

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>those emails quietly went phut.
>
>Does anyone know what could cause that?

It's happened to me in the past... my provider got on an RBL
listing...

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNSBL>

and all my E-mails IN and OUT vanished.

There's a site to check if your IP address is blocked, by I can't
remember the link.

It usually happens to those providers who host spam origination sites.
You might want to change providers >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I'm looking for work... see my website.

Thinking outside the box...producing elegant & economic solutions.

[John Smith]

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:526poc1508fdgdd5g...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>>While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>>arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>>them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>those emails quietly went phut.
>>
>>Does anyone know what could cause that?
>
> It's happened to me in the past... my provider got on an RBL
> listing...
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNSBL>
>
> and all my E-mails IN and OUT vanished.
>
> There's a site to check if your IP address is blocked, by I can't
> remember the link.

analogconsultants.com doesn't seem to be on any checkable blacklist.
There are no spf or dmarc records in DNS but that shouldn't be a big deal.

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:03:11 -0400, "John Smith"
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
>message news:526poc1508fdgdd5g...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>>new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>>>arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>>>them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>>those emails quietly went phut.
>>>
>>>Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>
>> It's happened to me in the past... my provider got on an RBL
>> listing...
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNSBL>
>>
>> and all my E-mails IN and OUT vanished.
>>
>> There's a site to check if your IP address is blocked, by I can't
>> remember the link.
>
>analogconsultants.com doesn't seem to be on any checkable blacklist.
>There are no spf or dmarc records in DNS but that shouldn't be a big deal.
>
>>

[snip]

You need to check his _provider's_ IP address... the path his E-mail
traverses.

[John Smith]

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in

message news:2sepoc58od5830rfb...@4ax.com...

https://mxtoolbox.com/

[Jasen Betts]

On 2017-08-09, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> John Larkin wrote on 8/9/2017 6:11 PM:
>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>
>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
>>> distance provider will not let through calls from another.
>>
>> At home, we still have the old POTS phones, but it's Internet based
>> now, Comcast cable, free except for renting the modem. It's been
>> perfectly reliable.
>
> It's perfectly reliable until it isn't. Internet goes down a lot more than
> POTS. Anytime the Internet service to your home is down an internet phone
> is down.

Im my expeience the converse is true. ADSL will work over severly
waterlogged copper, POTS won't.

> Error messages on email may take some time. I think the hand shake only
> goes as far as reaching the final server. There is no handshake to let the
> sender know you have downloaded the email or have read it... although I
> recall some feature where you could let the sender know you had received the
> email. When you opened the email Eudora would prompt asking if you wanted
> to send a return receipt on some emails.

Yeah, to trace an email's delivery you need to access the logs of each
server between source and destination to see what it did with the email.

The new trend in failed delivery is broken DNS servers - DNS servers
with only partial availability, blocking based on IP address
administrative region is also popular.

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

[David Eather]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 06:56:46 +1000, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>
>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>
>
> Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
> distance provider will not let through calls from another.
>
>

>> this is
>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts

>>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>

>> Maybe their server is messed up.
>>
>
> I think so. They said it must be mine but this is the only company that
> it's happening with.
>
> Still just swallowing emails with no error messages whatsoever is
> concerning.
>

I think not. about 30 hrs ago I asked 2 different sites to send emails so
I could reset my passwords. Should arrive in a few minuets - no nothing,
and nothing after asking for a resend.

--
The latest set of Shadow Broker tools shows the UK, USA, Canada,
Australian and New Zealand spy agencies were hacking into domestic home
routers. Who gave them permission to spy on our kids?

[Martin Brown]

On 10/08/2017 20:49, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2017-08-09, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote on 8/9/2017 6:11 PM:
>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
>>>> distance provider will not let through calls from another.
>>>
>>> At home, we still have the old POTS phones, but it's Internet based
>>> now, Comcast cable, free except for renting the modem. It's been
>>> perfectly reliable.
>>
>> It's perfectly reliable until it isn't. Internet goes down a lot more than
>> POTS. Anytime the Internet service to your home is down an internet phone
>> is down.

The only advantage of POTS is that when the mains if off it still works
for basic emergency phone whereas fibre or cable does not.

>
> Im my expeience the converse is true. ADSL will work over severly
> waterlogged copper, POTS won't.

Waterlogged copper might be OK. I see some dielectric losses in sync
speed when the local beck floods but when an actual junction box is full
of water all bets are off. Half our village lost internet a couple of
months back and they dug up an old interconnector box in front of my
house (think 12" x 4" diameter rubberised policemans helmet).

The water table here is often very high. When he got it out and shook it
you could here water sloshing about inside like maracas.

What causes big trouble round here are damp aluminium to copper joints
which corrode like hell after a few decades and partially rectify ADSL
signals. The neighbouring village is so afflicted it gets a whopping
256k sync rate on standard ADSL!

>
>> Error messages on email may take some time. I think the hand shake only
>> goes as far as reaching the final server. There is no handshake to let the
>> sender know you have downloaded the email or have read it... although I
>> recall some feature where you could let the sender know you had received the
>> email. When you opened the email Eudora would prompt asking if you wanted
>> to send a return receipt on some emails.
>
> Yeah, to trace an email's delivery you need to access the logs of each
> server between source and destination to see what it did with the email.
>
> The new trend in failed delivery is broken DNS servers - DNS servers
> with only partial availability, blocking based on IP address
> administrative region is also popular.

The new one I have seen is dumping anything where the senders domain
appears not to exist (ISPs failing to configure DNS records properly).
This seems to be common with major corporate email systems and it drops
any such emails on the floor without any warnings or bounce msgs.
(arguably a bounce message would be undeliverable backscatter)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

I still have a fax machine in the loft just in case. But spam faxes
became enough of a bind that I switched it off more than a decade ago.

I looked up what the problem I saw was and Unix Dig or Win NSlookup will
allow you to probe for any abnormalities in the senders DNS records.

A problem can arise if the DNS server replies "yes" I have them but does
not then resolve the sender domain to an actual numeric dotted quad.
That was the only difference between senders that could get through the
corporate gateway and those that couldn't (and got no bounce message).

Googles DNS server 8.8.8.8 is suitable for doing such probes.

In all cases they were sending out through an ISPs smart SMTP server
rather than running their own local server. SPF was valid.

Although antispam measures have improved enormously these days there is
still a small risk of collateral damage when aggressive corporate
filters encounter slightly misconfigured external mail systems.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[John Smith]

"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:omjlt4$1sov$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> On 10/08/2017 20:49, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2017-08-09, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> John Larkin wrote on 8/9/2017 6:11 PM:
>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg
>>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>

> The new one I have seen is dumping anything where the senders domain
> appears not to exist (ISPs failing to configure DNS records properly).

What's wrong with that?
If you claim your sender's address is som...@dfkdhjoknvsloac.com then I
won't accept the message and you won't get a bounce message from me for
obvious reasons. The server log will show what happened.
If the domain really does exist then DNS needs to show that or you neet to
find a provider who knows what they're doing.

[Martin Brown]

On 11/08/2017 16:12, John Smith wrote:
> "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:omjlt4$1sov$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
>> On 10/08/2017 20:49, Jasen Betts wrote:
>>> On 2017-08-09, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> John Larkin wrote on 8/9/2017 6:11 PM:
>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg
>>>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>
>> The new one I have seen is dumping anything where the senders domain
>> appears not to exist (ISPs failing to configure DNS records properly).
>
> What's wrong with that?

> If you claim your sender's address is som...@dfkdhjoknvsloac.com then I
> won't accept the message and you won't get a bounce message from me for
> obvious reasons. The server log will show what happened.
> If the domain really does exist then DNS needs to show that or you neet to
> find a provider who knows what they're doing.

That is the problem we were seeing. Some ISPs have mangled A records
their smart host accepts it for forwarding and the final destination
accepts it but drops it on the floor.

It is relatively recently that antispam measures have started checking
if the senders domain resolves to an actual dotted quad. Incidentally
Joergs does so that isn't the problem he is seeing.

>> This seems to be common with major corporate email systems and it drops
>> any such emails on the floor without any warnings or bounce msgs.
>> (arguably a bounce message would be undeliverable backscatter)

Undoubtedly it is ISPs without a clue causing problems (a situation made
worse by the totally unreliable SPF settings on some services).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[John Smith]

"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:omkisa$d2r$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> On 11/08/2017 16:12, John Smith wrote:
>> "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:omjlt4$1sov$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> On 10/08/2017 20:49, Jasen Betts wrote:
>>>> On 2017-08-09, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> John Larkin wrote on 8/9/2017 6:11 PM:
>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:56:46 -0700, Joerg
>>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg
>>>>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>
>>> The new one I have seen is dumping anything where the senders domain
>>> appears not to exist (ISPs failing to configure DNS records properly).
>>
>

> Undoubtedly it is ISPs without a clue causing problems (a situation made
> worse by the totally unreliable SPF settings on some services).

Ten years ago I was hoping that SPF would become a reliable means of
validating email.
Now I think it's worthless and causes more problems than it solves.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

[John Smith]

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in

message news:2sepoc58od5830rfb...@4ax.com...

I think you should check yours like this:

https://mxtoolbox.com/domain/analog-innovations.com/

I'd be wanting to know why I'm on those blacklists.

[Joerg]

Suburban Propane isn't my enemy.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-10 17:58, David Eather wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 06:56:46 +1000, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>
>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>
>>
>> Internet is ok. Phone calls are a different story. Often one long
>> distance provider will not let through calls from another.
>>
>>
>>> this is
>>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>>>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>
>>> Maybe their server is messed up.
>>>
>>
>> I think so. They said it must be mine but this is the only company
>> that it's happening with.
>>
>> Still just swallowing emails with no error messages whatsoever is
>> concerning.
>>
>
> I think not. about 30 hrs ago I asked 2 different sites to send emails
> so I could reset my passwords. Should arrive in a few minuets - no
> nothing, and nothing after asking for a resend.
>

Hmm, that sure sounds like I am not the only one and the communication
method email is indeed falling apart.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-10 10:33, Jim Thompson wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>
>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>
> It's happened to me in the past... my provider got on an RBL
> listing...
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNSBL>
>
> and all my E-mails IN and OUT vanished.
>

I had that happen a lot while I was still with 1&1. They seem to be
incapable of policing their own customers when it comes to spam.
However, in all cases I received a bounce message which stated that RBL
was the reason for rejection.

> There's a site to check if your IP address is blocked, by I can't
> remember the link.
>
> It usually happens to those providers who host spam origination sites.
> You might want to change providers >:-}
>

That is preciscely why I switched from 1&1 to Inmotion earlier this
year. No more spam-blocks (so far).

[Joerg]

Possibly. I had one client who had EMC issues at a steel plant that was
being equipped with US-made control gear. In that case, yes, emails can
come from Vietnam. Not reacting to such issues is not something I can or
should do.

> It may be true that you don't know who will email you or what part of the
> world they're in but even if people in those countries need to email you,
> many of them are likely to be using providers such as Google or Microsoft so
> the servers are in North America. I never block those servers.
> And most potential inbound connections directly from those countries are
> either spam or brute force login.
>
> Should you already be in communication with people who have email servers in
> those countries then I can make sure they are not blocked. Known legitimate
> email servers, even if they are in Vietnam, are never blocked.
>

I do not always have a priori knowledge about who needs to contact me.
Recently, for example, a software engineer in Lithuania. Those messages
were very important to me in solving another client's problem.

> By tailoring the above to individual clients needs I can usually provide an
> email service which has almost no risk of blocking a legitimate email and
> has almost zero spam and very low risk of a brute force login attack
> succeeding.
>
> This makes me wonder whether your email hosting provider has done something
> which accidentaly blocked a legitimate message. There's always a small risk
> of blocking a wanted message but the problem of spam and brute force attacks
> is getting worse.
>

AFAIK they don't do that.

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:08:56 -0400, "John Smith"

[snip]

It's been a few years since I've experienced any problems, so I don't
know what those blacklists are... except planted there by people who
get their knickers in a twist due to my politics >:-}

Anyone have problems contacting me?

If you do, simply post here and I'll track down the problem.

My provider, olm.net, _has_ had issues in the past... hosting
spammers.

[John Smith]

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in

message news:sinrocpf549ps77hh...@4ax.com...

Your provider is hosting at least 30 other domains on the same server so
it's not likely to be anything you've done.
I would poke the provider by sending them an email and asking about those
listings.

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev64vf...@mid.individual.net...

In your case I would probably choose to block only addresses which appear on
a list such as this one:
https://www.abuseipdb.com/
And also from a database compiled by myself of obvious spammers and brute
force logins.
There is still a small risk of blocking a legitimate email.

[Joerg]

I do not believe in spam cops and such. They often simply block whole IP
addresses or even address ranges. That's like expelling all 30 kids in a
classroom because one of them misbehaves.

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:33:08 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I know people who have 250 emails in their inbox every morning. Not
many get answered.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

[John Smith]

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in

message news:sinrocpf549ps77hh...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:08:56 -0400, "John Smith"
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote
>>in
>>message news:2sepoc58od5830rfb...@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:03:11 -0400, "John Smith"
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote
>>>>in
>>>>message news:526poc1508fdgdd5g...@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>>>>>new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>>>>>at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing
>>>>>>has
>>>>>>arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>>>>>those emails quietly went phut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's happened to me in the past... my provider got on an RBL
>>>>> listing...
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNSBL>
>>>>>

> My provider, olm.net, _has_ had issues in the past... hosting
> spammers.

Only one report a month ago but I'd ask them to look into getting off this
list as soon as possible.

https://www.abuseipdb.com/check/216.71.119.2

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 9 August 2017 21:24:57 UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
> those emails quietly went phut.
>
> Does anyone know what could cause that?

Snowflake mode on. Now you're being racist, it could just as well have been a white, brown yellow or red hole. In fact it went to chill in a specially designated safe space for an indeterminate amount of time.


NT

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev686p...@mid.individual.net...

>>>> This makes me wonder whether your email hosting provider has done
>>>> something
>>>> which accidentaly blocked a legitimate message. There's always a small
>>>> risk
>>>> of blocking a wanted message but the problem of spam and brute force
>>>> attacks
>>>> is getting worse.
>>>>
>>>
>>> AFAIK they don't do that.
>>
>> In your case I would probably choose to block only addresses which appear
>> on
>> a list such as this one:
>> https://www.abuseipdb.com/
>> And also from a database compiled by myself of obvious spammers and brute
>> force logins.
>> There is still a small risk of blocking a legitimate email.
>>
>
> I do not believe in spam cops and such. They often simply block whole IP
> addresses or even address ranges. That's like expelling all 30 kids in a
> classroom because one of them misbehaves.

No. It's like making sure that they cannot misbehave in the first place.
Blocking address ranges is fine if there are only spambots and hackbots
there but no legitimate email servers. Blocking should not remain in place
forever because spambots and hackbots do move around and new legitimate
email servers start up.
So there's always a small risk of blocking a wanted email but that's a risk
which currently has to be taken because the alternative is drowning in spam
or getting on a blacklist because one of your users passwords was brute
forced and your server was used to send spam.
Any sensible provider will balance the risk with the rate of customer
complaints and the likelihood that their customers need to email places like
Seychelles or Ukraine.

[Joerg]

Maybe they got on all sorts of sales mailing lists. I never had that.

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev6cb7...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2017-08-11 10:40, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:33:08 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-08-10 17:58, David Eather wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 06:56:46 +1000, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg
>>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>>>>
>>

>> I know people who have 250 emails in their inbox every morning. Not
>> many get answered.
>>
>
> Maybe they got on all sorts of sales mailing lists. I never had that.

That's probably because you have taken the sensible precaution of not
allowing a computer to take your email address from your web site.

It's possibly also true that you don't often receive email from people who
think it's fun to email 50 people at once without using Bcc.

[Joerg]

People in far away places do not always know that. I had exactly that
happen, a lot, that a whole domain got blocked and I could not send
email to people awaiting it. It's bad and it's sloppy IT work.


> ... Blocking should not remain in place

> forever because spambots and hackbots do move around and new legitimate
> email servers start up.
> So there's always a small risk of blocking a wanted email but that's a risk
> which currently has to be taken because the alternative is drowning in spam
> or getting on a blacklist because one of your users passwords was brute
> forced and your server was used to send spam.
> Any sensible provider will balance the risk with the rate of customer
> complaints and the likelihood that their customers need to email places like
> Seychelles or Ukraine.

Which is essence means that email will never even remotely be as
reliable as fax.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-11 12:07, John Smith wrote:
> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
> news:ev6cb7...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 2017-08-11 10:40, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:33:08 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2017-08-10 17:58, David Eather wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 06:56:46 +1000, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-08-09 13:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:24:55 -0700, Joerg
>>>>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it? Our Internet connections seem to be very reliable.
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> I know people who have 250 emails in their inbox every morning. Not
>>> many get answered.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe they got on all sorts of sales mailing lists. I never had that.
>
> That's probably because you have taken the sensible precaution of not
> allowing a computer to take your email address from your web site.
>

Yes, that was the purpose. Occasionally someone complains but I figure
that of it is too much to read and type in my emails address the issue a
potential client has can't really be that serious.

> It's possibly also true that you don't often receive email from people who
> think it's fun to email 50 people at once without using Bcc.
>

Unfortunately so people do :-(

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev6dr1...@mid.individual.net...

I'd have made the information available via http or https download. Then
they can get it wthout going through any email servers at all. Make sure the
url isn't hard to explain over the phone.

> It's bad and it's sloppy IT work.

It's a necessary compromise. Whether it's sloppy or not comes down to
individual opinion.
It's not good if a legitimate email server gets blocked.
Most of my blocking doesn't care about domains, only which IP addresses and
ranges have spam or hackbots but no legitimate email servers.

>
> Which is essence means that email will never even remotely be as reliable
> as fax.

Hard to say what will happen in the future. The need for blocking will
reduce if the number of malware compromised computers around the world
reduces.

I don't use fax but I always check the calling number before answering the
phone. Then I'm ready to scream with laughter at the caller who claims to be
from Windows technical services.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-11 12:47, John Smith wrote:

[...]

> I don't use fax but I always check the calling number before answering the
> phone. Then I'm ready to scream with laughter at the caller who claims to be
> from Windows technical services.
>

Just ask them whether they are Windex-certified and what their maximum
length ladder is :-)

[John Smith]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev6g9i...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2017-08-11 12:47, John Smith wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> I don't use fax but I always check the calling number before answering
>> the
>> phone. Then I'm ready to scream with laughter at the caller who claims to
>> be
>> from Windows technical services.
>>
>
> Just ask them whether they are Windex-certified and what their maximum
> length ladder is :-)

I didn't look at all pages on your site but if you don't have a form for
potential customers to fill in then you may want to consider one. Include a
captcha. You will get almost no unwanted messages. If your own email service
can't send to them then temporarily switch to another provider such as
gmail. To have all email accounts in one place including gmail use
http://www.emclient.com/ if you're mostly on Windows for daily work.

[Joerg]

Good idea but so far the first contact was usually a phone call. They
wanted to make sure whether I thought I can really help them with a
design and then they followed up by emailing schematics, EMC test
reports and stuff. The email is mostly for former clients who need to
contact me again but have lost my email address. Also, I am trying to
gradually retire so if someone doesn't write that may be a good thing.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Martin Brown wrote:
>
> The only advantage of POTS is that when the mains if off it still
> works for basic emergency phone whereas fiber or cable does not.


Around here, it is all fiber, until the last mile where it becomes
copper. Some of the cables are over 50 years old. I am dropping my
landline because it is so unreliable. It is noisy, and the incoming
audio has a bad hum that isn't heard by the other party. The won't fix
it, until they convert everything to fiber.


--
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Smith wrote:
>
> I don't use fax but I always check the calling number before answering the
> phone. Then I'm ready to scream with laughter at the caller who claims to be
> from Windows technical services.

I ask, "Which computer? There are nine computers and three 24"
monitors in front of me."

Other times I yell, "I run Linux, moron" and hang up. Three of the
computers are running Linux.

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 18:32:21 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>John Smith wrote:
>>
>> I don't use fax but I always check the calling number before answering the
>> phone. Then I'm ready to scream with laughter at the caller who claims to be
>> from Windows technical services.
>
>
> I ask, "Which computer? There are nine computers and three 24"
>monitors in front of me."
>
> Other times I yell, "I run Linux, moron" and hang up. Three of the
>computers are running Linux.

My 'landlines' are via Ooma. Thus I am able to block numbers with
ease... I block ALL 800 range numbers, plus a large collection of
specific numbers. I'm down to probably one spam call a week, which I
promptly add to the list.

My cell phone service is via Verizon, who charges an arm and a leg to
block more that 6 numbers, then I devised a trick...

I simply add spam calls to my contacts list... but configure such
numbers to 'no ring'... all named Zspam(n)... I'm up to 40 such
numbers so far ;-)

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Thompson wrote:

> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>
>> I ask, "Which computer? There are nine computers and three 24"
>> monitors in front of me."
>>
>> Other times I yell, "I run Linux, moron" and hang up. Three of
>> the computers are running Linux.
>
> My 'landlines' are via Ooma. Thus I am able to block numbers with
> ease... I block ALL 800 range numbers, plus a large collection of
> specific numbers. I'm down to probably one spam call a week, which I
> promptly add to the list.
>
> My cell phone service is via Verizon, who charges an arm and a leg to
> block more that 6 numbers, then I devised a trick...
>
> I simply add spam calls to my contacts list... but configure such
> numbers to 'no ring'... all named Zspam(n)... I'm up to 40 such
> numbers so far ;-)

I get too many '800' calls from the VA to block them as a group. I
am dumping the Centurylink landline at the end of the month, in favor of
the Magic Jack that only costs $100 for five years dervice.

I've used it for several years, and it works quite well when the
internet is up.

I can now get 200 minutes free cellphone service from Freedompop,
and a used smart phone for $40.

[k...@notreal.com]

I don't get many (any?) 800 calls at all. I just get calls from
random numbers. If I don't know the number, and it's out of the area,
I don't answer. Simple.

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 19:59:16 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Jim Thompson wrote:
>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I ask, "Which computer? There are nine computers and three 24"
>>>> monitors in front of me."
>>>>
>>>> Other times I yell, "I run Linux, moron" and hang up. Three of
>>>> the computers are running Linux.
>>>
>>> My 'landlines' are via Ooma. Thus I am able to block numbers with
>>> ease... I block ALL 800 range numbers, plus a large collection of
>>> specific numbers. I'm down to probably one spam call a week, which I
>>> promptly add to the list.
>>>
>>> My cell phone service is via Verizon, who charges an arm and a leg to
>>> block more that 6 numbers, then I devised a trick...
>>>
>>> I simply add spam calls to my contacts list... but configure such
>>> numbers to 'no ring'... all named Zspam(n)... I'm up to 40 such
>>> numbers so far ;-)
>>
>>
>> I get too many '800' calls from the VA to block them as a group. I
>> am dumping the Centurylink landline at the end of the month, in favor of

>> the Magic Jack that only costs $100 for five years service.

>>
>> I've used it for several years, and it works quite well when the
>> internet is up.
>>
>> I can now get 200 minutes free cellphone service from Freedompop,
>> and a used smart phone for $40.
>
> I don't get many (any?) 800 calls at all. I just get calls from
> random numbers. If I don't know the number, and it's out of the area,
> I don't answer. Simple.

I don't have caller ID on my landline. It has sucked since it was
installed, and the rate just went up to almost $60 month, for local
only service. Two months at the current rate will pay for the next five
years of my VOIP service, with money left over.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 21:28:20 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"

No landline. ;-)

[Michael A. Terrell]

I use the Magic Jack for one, plus I have their app on my tablet
computers so I can make calls from hotspots.

[Jasen Betts]

UCEPROTECT is a blacklist fed by spamtraps, perhaps someone sent you an email
with a forged from and you (or someone, or some system) at your IP address,
replied.




--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

[Jasen Betts]

On 2017-08-10, David Brown <david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> On 10/08/17 09:12, Martin Brown wrote:

>> On 09/08/2017 21:24, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing
>>> has arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent
>>> one to them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive
>>> either. All those emails quietly went phut.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>

>> I've seen something similar quite recently. Mails vanishing no bounce.
>>
>> It turned out that the ISP had misconfigured the sending domain so that
>> a certain way of checking for spam erroneously returns a fail report of
>> "sender domain does not exist" and so it drops the email on the floor.
>> (no bounce message since domain apparently does not exist)
>>
>> Delivery of emails to their domain works OK since that uses a different
>> way of looking up the DNS record. I can't quite remember all the details
>> but it showed up when we dug into the DNS and MX records and found
>> inconsistencies in the ones that were vanishing emails.
>> (it seems to be a quite recent thing)
>>
>> I don't have the details on this machine unfortunately so from memory.
>>
>> It seemed to be pot luck which ones were affected and which were not.
>> Only some mailservers actually check that the "sending" domain exists
>> before accepting emails so the effect can be quite confusing.
>>
>
> SPF - Sender Policy Framework - is related source of issues. Some email
> receivers insist that the sender has SPF configured correctly, and drop
> everything else.

Not configured at all is a correct configuration, so refusing emails
that fail SPF is legit.

> For properly configured sending servers run by serious
> folk, that's no problem - but there are many servers that are run by
> amateurs. So many receivers use correct SPF as a strong indication of
> legitimate email (for spam scoring), and incorrect SPF as almost
> certainly spam. That of course means that if your server (or your ISP's
> server) has DNS records claiming to support SPF, but has got the details
> wrong, then lots of receivers will put your emails straight in the spam
> can with no bounce.

If they can't refuse the email instead of dropping, or bouncing it they
are amateurs.

[Phil Hobbs]

On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
> those emails quietly went phut.
>
> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>

Lots of outfits don't send bounce messages.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Martin Riddle]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 16:04:00 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>
>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>
>
>Lots of outfits don't send bounce messages.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Sometimes I see a 'Cannot find recipient' bounce message 72 hours
after sending an email.
But I never experience a black hole like that.

Cheers

[Martin Brown]

On 02/03/2018 00:04, Martin Riddle wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 16:04:00 -0500, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>
>> Lots of outfits don't send bounce messages.

Rather their mailservers do this now by default.
I doubt if most of them even know how to alter the settings :(

> Sometimes I see a 'Cannot find recipient' bounce message 72 hours
> after sending an email.
> But I never experience a black hole like that.

Badly set up SPF records at either end are capable of doing this.

Several of my corporate contacts are behind firewalls that interpret
certain ISPs email systems as sending forged emails because parts of the
SPF give a soft fail mismatch and bin them with no bounce.

They do this to avoid backscatter of spam bounce messages onto innocent
forged email addresses. The bulk of what gets bounced is spam. In the
bad old days you would sometimes find your email used this way and get
half a million bounce messages in the inbox spread over a couple of
days. Now they don't bounce to envelope sender if they think its spam.

It is a real problem because plenty of ISPs and email providers have not
set their systems up right so SPF is now worse than useless. It causes
too much collateral damage of lost emails for the benefits it provides.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Jeff Layman]

On 01/03/18 21:04, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 08/09/2017 04:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> While I know that our US phone system is beginning to unravel this is
>> new: A fuel supplier (Suburban Propane) sent me two emails to accounts
>> at two different providers. No bounce message on their side, nothing has
>> arrived, nothing in the spam folder either. So I called and sent one to
>> them. No bounce message back to me yet it did not arrive either. All
>> those emails quietly went phut.
>>
>> Does anyone know what could cause that?
>>
>
> Lots of outfits don't send bounce messages.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

I wonder if it has appeared in the intervening 6 months? ;-)

In cases such as these where an email client is being used, it is useful
to see if you can check the inbox via webmail if that is possible. I
recently had problems with my ISP-provided mail account (which I use
rarely as a secondary account). Nothing appeared in Thunderbird's inbox
for the mail account, but all the messages were in that inbox when
viewed by webmail.

Changing the IMAP mailserver name and port number in TB solved the problem.

--

Jeff