What is radio shack?
Alex C
Just curious to know what is Radio Shack?
Is it a retailer or some product? I found this name quite frequently
Thanks
Alex
Lord Garth
parts
that Radio Shack sells are derated parametric rejects. This means that they
operate but the parts don't meet spec. They are less of a parts shop every
year and more of a private label reseller. The company will contract with
another corporation to make a quantity of product with say the Micronta
name when it is quite obvious the it is a Uniden phone or a Casio
calculator.
Try not to buy parts from Radio Shack, a Tandy Corporation.
Jon
otac...@my-deja.com
"Alex C" <ale...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> Just curious to know what is Radio Shack?
> Is it a retailer or some product? I found this name quite frequently
>
> Thanks
> Alex
>
>
Radio Shack is a big retailer here in Canada and in the States. They
sell all kinds of components and stuph.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Randy Barrow
>
> Hi,
> Just curious to know what is Radio Shack?
> Is it a retailer or some product? I found this name quite frequently
>
Hi Alex-
In their own words:
http:/www.tandy.com
http://www.radioshack.com
In real life, it's a retail place where you can buy a somewhat limited
variety of some general purpose electronics components. The great
majority of their products are simply repackaged or relabled with the RS
brand (Archer, Micronta, etc) and are in some cases are "bulk" grade
(slightly off-spec) parts. If you're doing something on a weekend and
you need a fuse or some heatshrink or a resistor, it's quite handy to
have them around. However, for any really serious work, I'd prefer to
buy my parts from a distributor for production or a mail-order outfit
for hobbyist work.
Later,
Randy Barrow
--
==============================================
Please remove NOSPAM from address for replies
==============================================
Peter Bennett
wrote:
>Hi,
>Just curious to know what is Radio Shack?
>Is it a retailer or some product? I found this name quite frequently
>
Radio Shack is a retail electronics chain in the US and Canada - may
be known as Tandy in other countries.
They used to sell electronic components in small quantities, but have
become more of a radio/computer/electronic equipment dealer.
--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
William L. Bahn
that, many years ago, used to cater to the hobbyist electronics crowd -
particularly the ham radio types (hence the name). As the years have gone on
by, they have shifted their focus away from the type of people that want to
learn about and build their own electronic stuff to the people that want to
by it all ready to go. They have therefore reduced their electronic
components to a small corner of the store and sell mostly stereos, cell
phones, electronic games and other consumer electronics including computers
and TVs. I have found that the quality of the few "finished" goods I have
bought there (a burglar alarm for my truck, a car stereo, a couple of
digital multimeters) has been quite acceptable.
They used to be a wonderful store for a young boy or girl getting interested
in electronics. They were local so you could walk in and look at all the
components that you could conceivably dream up a use for and you could
tailor your projects to the amount of money you had.
As you got more involved and started making bigger projects and talked to
more people, you started realizing how expensive Radio Shack's components
were ($1.19 for a $0.10 IC, for instance) and discovered the not-so-local
surplus electronics stores. Then you realized that, while their prices were
good, their selection and the reliability of their inventory wasn't good
enough for your growing projects and then you discovered ..... DigiKey. By
this point, you are starting to realize the value of your own time and, even
though DigiKey's prices are not the best, they have a very wide selection
and a very respectable in-stock rate. Now you use the surplus houses or
mainline distributors for your large or benchstock orders, DigiKey and
Mouser and a their ilk for the bulk of the project specific purchases and
Radio Shack for the last minute items that you forgot or that got damaged or
that you spec'ed the wrong size for.
They used to be a real good source for last minute electronic components,
but their selection has become so poor in the last few years (and of the
items they do carry, they seldom carry more than a couple) that I seldom
even consider going there anymore. And let's not even get into the
"knowledgeable sales staff" that their commercials speak so highly off -
talk about a justification for truth-in-advertising laws.
Alex C wrote in message <7lv1uq$5vg$1...@newton.pacific.net.sg>...
>Hi,
>Just curious to know what is Radio Shack?
>Is it a retailer or some product? I found this name quite frequently
>
>Thanks
>Alex
>
>
kingsnake
> Hi,
> Just curious to know what is Radio Shack?
> Is it a retailer or some product? I found this name quite frequently
>
> Thanks
> Alex
>
It is a nation-wide retail outlet. Back in the 1960's, they were owned by
Allied Electronics, and they really had some pretty decent stuff for the
hobbyist.
Alas, now, they have been bought out by the Tandy Leather Company,
and now they seem to specialize in high-end hi-fi audio,
TV's, computers, and other consumer electronics.
Bummer. Times change.
Now, I call them "Radio Shark".
CUL
--
-John
Vincent Ma
Darwin Diaz
I give Radio Shack some credit, they diversified, Lafayette Electronics
and Olson Electronics didn't. The Trash 80 was a big participant of the
home PC revolution.
`````````````````````````````````````````````
Prasanth Kumar
division which is mainly mail order I think.
William L. Bahn <wb...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:93136489...@news.remarQ.com...
Mark Kinsler
it's the only one left. You'll probably find that your local
comprehensive parts retailer, wholesale or retail, has closed down due to
the mail-order suppliers. No more countermen, no more big RCA-logo clocks
on the wall, no rack of dusty amateur radio manuals and TAB books and Sams
manuals. No more ash trays and lists of parts written on the inside of
tube cartons. No more elaborate antenna arrays hanging from the ceiling.
No more advice, no more Christmas party for regular customers.
My sense is that Radio Shack doesn't make a dime on what it calls the
"parts wall," but it's kept there for public relations purposes and
because it's part of the tradition of Radio Shack. The chain has nearly
failed on a number of occasions. It started as a Boston-based electronics
chain that competed with Allied, Lafayette, and Olson. Tandy (then the
Tandy-Hinckley Handicrafts Co.) of Fort Worth, TX bought the chain out in
the late 1960's after it had expanded a great deal. Radio Shack was in a
good position through the 1970's, riding the crest of the great home
electronics boom of the time. They financed the development of the first
small computer that was good for much of anything. They tried making some
record albums. In response to the CB craze of the late '70's, they even
tried making a movie ("Convoy"). Their instructional kits taught
electronics to thousands of kids.
When the electronics boom failed in the 1980's, Radio Shack nearly went
under--but it survived, unlike Allied, Lafayette, Olson, and others. The
chain has survived every technological craze: robots, pocket computers,
short wave radio, alternative energy, remote-control toys, video, home
security, police scanners, build-it-yourself speakers, car stereo systems
(disks to 8-track to cassette to discs) and home automation (the X-10
system is the only one of perhaps fifty elaborately-marketed schemes for
home automation to make it to the present.) No other chain of its kind
has done anywhere near as well: Radio Shack even outlived the failure of
Incredible Universe, its ill-fated "big-box" store.
There is some virtue in simple survival, and Radio Shack has survived:
I'm still rooting for them. It's still the only place where you can buy a
microswitch on a Sunday afternoon.
===============================
Note to the howthingswork list: this was part of a discussion that started
when a European poster on sci.electronics.basics inquired about the
oft-mentioned Radio Shack electronics chain. Many of the responses were
highly negative, which I think is an indicator the general youthfulness of
the newsgroup.
Ever notice that there's great resentment of any heavily-advertised
product or store amongst kids lately? Consumer education came to the
schools, and that's the result.
Mark Kinsler
newly-minted geezer.
Wheeze...
--
............................................................................
Athens, Ohio, USA. Home of the "How Things Work" educational program.
See http://www.frognet.net/~kinsler
DrVideoRx
Writes:
>Notice that while Radio Shack may not be the best electronics parts chain,
**BOY YOU GOT THAT RIGHT...I agree 100%!!!!!. Keep in mind tho that Radio
Shack was NEVER designed to be anything but a parts source for the
Radio/Electric/Electronic HOBBYIST at a RETAIL level. RS was NOT a "wholesale"
outlet for the Electronic Service Shop (there were a "few" exceptions to this)!
> You'll probably find that your local
>comprehensive parts retailer, wholesale or retail, has closed down due to
>the mail-order suppliers
**While some wholesalers have closed, in my area there are still 4 who have
salesmen who call on me, and the "countermen" who you claim have disappeared,
but I still buy the majority of my parts mail order...since this is the trend
of the industry today..their (mail-order) costs (wholesale parts prices) are
much lower, their inventories are much larger, and with over-night delivery (if
needed) available everywhere now, making this the choice of the professionals
in todays cost-conscious market.
~From The Electronics Vaults of DrVideo ~
~ EMail Replies require the Removal of : "edyClub"
DrVideoRx
>From: kin...@frognet.net (Mark Kinsler)
Writes:
>Notice that while Radio Shack may not be the best electronics parts chain,
**BOY YOU GOT THAT RIGHT...I agree 100%!!!!!. Keep in mind tho that Radio
Shack was NEVER designed to be anything but a parts source for the
Radio/Electric/Electronic HOBBYIST at a RETAIL level. RS was NOT a "wholesale"
outlet for the Electronic Service Shop (there were a "few" exceptions to this)!
> You'll probably find that your local
>comprehensive parts retailer, wholesale or retail, has closed down due to
>the mail-order suppliers
**While some wholesalers have closed, in my area there are still 4 left (still
too many for this area) who have
salesmen who call on me, and still have the "countermen" who you claim have
disappeared,
but I still buy the majority of my parts mail order...since this is the trend
of the industry today..their (mail-order suppliers) costs (wholesale parts
prices) are
much lower, their inventories are much larger and complete, and with over-night
delivery (if
needed) available everywhere now, making this the choice of the professionals
in todays cost-conscious market.
>
>My sense is that Radio Shack doesn't make a dime on what it calls the
>"parts wall," but it's kept there for public relations purposes and
>because it's part of the tradition of Radio Shack.
**Be assured that Radio Shack doesn"t do or have ANYTHING that they don't at
least make TWO dimes on...and their sense of "tradition" was LONG AGO replaced
by their sense of "Greed"
> The chain has nearly
>failed on a number of occasions. It started as a Boston-based electronics
>chain
**Your history of Radio Shack, while probally mostly correct, is however
somewhat misleading and incomplete. As stated above RS was started as a
"Retail" store for the "Hobbyist".
RS started as small local "Hobbyist" store that decided to explore the
buyers group bulk buying theory...and expanded on this by "creating their own
members" by means of "Franchising". Most (if not all but the original store)
of the RS Stores were local owned independent franchises, using one name "Radio
Shack" but buying their merchandise in bulk. In the earlier days of Radio
Shack Stores...one might find a Retail Radio Shack outlet as part of a
Wholesale Parts Supply House..quite a few wholesalers got RS franchises just
because of the cost and buying power of the RS group (and because in the early
days RS did actually carry parts and related items). In the early days RS
Store franchises popped up all over, and usually as part of another already
existing (mostly completely unrelated) business.
**Then the s**t hit the fan, using the fine print in their "Franchise
Contracts", the original RS (who sold the franchises) was able to have access
to the franchasisee's business books..which they used to find out who was
running a profitable RS franchise store....they then went into that locale and
opened a "Company Owned Store" (in direct competition with the franchise store)
and proceeded to undercut the franchise and eventually (under some phony
contex) yank the franchise agreement and quit selling to them..thus
establishing a RS Company Store (only) in that market. Well, they managed to
step on a few of the wrong toes along the way, coupled with all the bad
publicity they got as their trechery became known, and also coupled with the
fact that RS was staffing their new Company Stores with managers and salesmen
who knew NOTHING about the Electronics Industry and were payed a low salary +
commissions...which in turn, caused these managers and salesmen to give people
(customers) all sorts of wrong and misleading information...just to make a
sale!......This is when RS almost went under (the first time as you mentioned),
and when Tandy came along and bought RS... lock, stock, and barrel. The only
problem here was that they kept some of the RS people, and the campaign of
replacing any sucessful franchisee with a company store continued until almost
all of the RS franchises are now gone.
**RS, like Sears and Wards (and others) has never manufactured anything
themselves (They did buy a cabinet plant once..but wound up using it to make
Store fixtures that they were forcing their franchisees to buy), and because of
their buying power were able to have the original myg put their name on it.
The fact that they (RS) failed in so many areas (as you mentioned), only
attests to the facts that they (RS) were selling junky inferrior products, had
very poor management, completely lost sight about what they were all about (a
parts and electronics hobbyist store) forsaking their loyal customer base for
the sake of a quick $$$, and have never really shaken their bad image and rep.
The fact that they survived only attests to the deep poctets of Tandy (and
others now), and you forgot to mention...they did do good selling "Toys"
(remote controlled cars, trucks, etc) and OH yes,........flashlights!! (altho
their "Battery Club" fizzled since people didn't want to give RS their life
history to get a battery)
**I would say that you are either: 1. sadly misinformed about RS (I've been
there several times) OR 2. married to or related to RS, OR 3. working for RS
in their public relations dept, OR 4. not old enough to actually know what
RS is and has done.
**In any case, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine!
Lenny
their parts wall. I have been desperate too on a sunday afternoon for a
Y adaptor or a connector, and each time I have been raped royally. Their
stuff is junk, and I have found most of their sales people uninformed
and largely ignorant of electronics.
Have you ever called their 800 number and spoke with someone who has
"answers"? If you have time, try it. Its quite entertaining...
Lenny Stein.
Lord Garth
We have several in my area including:
Off the Shelf Components
Electrotex
Altex
Tanner
and others. Sadly, the owner and founder or OSC died as a result
of a motorcycle crash. His widow however is keeping to store open.
Specialty lighting and battery packs can be had at EVS which is
also nearby.
Jon
Mark Kinsler <kin...@frognet.net> wrote in message
news:W3Yg3.260$8c3....@typ41.nn.bcandid.com...
> Notice that while Radio Shack may not be the best electronics parts chain,
> it's the only one left. You'll probably find that your local
> comprehensive parts retailer, wholesale or retail, has closed down due to
> the mail-order suppliers. No more countermen, no more big RCA-logo clocks
> on the wall, no rack of dusty amateur radio manuals and TAB books and Sams
> manuals. No more ash trays and lists of parts written on the inside of
> tube cartons. No more elaborate antenna arrays hanging from the ceiling.
> No more advice, no more Christmas party for regular customers.
>
> My sense is that Radio Shack doesn't make a dime on what it calls the
> "parts wall," but it's kept there for public relations purposes and
> because it's part of the tradition of Radio Shack. The chain has nearly
> failed on a number of occasions. It started as a Boston-based electronics
Mark Kinsler
>**I would say that you are either: 1. sadly misinformed about RS (I've been
>there several times) OR 2. married to or related to RS, OR 3. working for RS
>in their public relations dept, OR 4. not old enough to actually know what
>RS is and has done.
Nope. Just an occasional customer who has kept an eye on the chain since
1968 or so. I liked Olson and Lafayette, too (I have an Olson audio
generator, and a nice piece of equipment it is.) I was briefly the repair
department for RS #2 in New Haven, CT. It was in 1971, I think.
A lot of the affiliate franchises still exist. There are a couple here in
southeast Ohio. I think you'll find that, while Tandy played hardball
with its franchisees in the 1970's, they played fair--and that was
exceptional behavior for franchisers in the 1970's before the law was
brought to bear on them.
Radio Shack claimed to have owned a battery plant and a cable plant at one
time or another, and they were involved in the formation of the Kenwood
audio brand. The history is complex and interesting. And they survived.
Mark Kinsler
apologist for Radio Shack, Harbor Freight, WalMart, Microsoft, and WD-40.
Mark Kinsler
>Mark, you need to come to Dallas if you want parts stores...
>We have several in my area including:
>Off the Shelf Components
>Electrotex
>Altex
>Tanner
I'm sure they're great places. But most cities have lost their
traditional parts outlets. Pittsburgh's are gone completely, I think.
New Haven, too (unless Hatry survives, which I doubt.) Parkersburg, WV
has one, sort of. Most moderate-sized cities had at least two stores.
Now, I have to admit that the traditional parts outlets couldn't figure
out Japanese integrated circuits. The difference in prices between Hatry
Electronics' RCA "SK" equivalents and what I was able to pay MCM by mail
were ridiculous: it was usually something like $23.00 for the SK version
and $3.50 from MCM. The traditional outlets couldn't supply speakers that
would fit anything, nor transformers with anything resembling useful
voltages.
But still...
M Kinsler
Chris
[many wise words snipped]
>There is some virtue in simple survival, and Radio Shack has survived:
>I'm still rooting for them. It's still the only place where you can buy a
>microswitch on a Sunday afternoon.
I'm in England, and it was/is Tandy. My nearest Tandy now is too far from
where I live to be useful, but I remember them with real affection for many
reasons.
Number one is from when they first brought personal computers to England.
The price was WAY out of my league, but a old school friend had recently
been promoted to manager of a nearby Tandys. When it closed on Saturday
evening, I took their demonstration model home with me, and I didn't sleep
until I returned it on Monday morning (no Sunday opening in those days.)
I even wrote a 'moon landing' game with graphics, that was used on demos in
their other stores.
And I made quite a few friends just by talking to other people studying the
component racks.
Just a few more positive words about Radio Shack / Tandy, even if not up to
date. It's a bit sad now to see them attracting so many unfavourable
comments - even though the complaints mainly seem to be vague sour grapes
from people who can't find what they want.
Chris
DrVideoRx
Writes:/
>I'm sure they're great places. But most cities have lost their
>traditional parts outlets. Pittsburgh's are gone completely, I think.
>New Haven, too (unless Hatry survives, which I doubt.) Parkersburg, WV
>has one, sort of. Most moderate-sized cities had at least two stores.
**I sure find it hard to believe that all of Pittsburghs Parts houses are gone.
But first I guess I should clarift just what you mean by "parts outlets" are
you talking about "Radio Shack" type Retail Stores?, or the wholesale Parts
suppliers?
The Wholesale Electronic Parts Suppliers (the good ones anyway..true
wholesale), required that you be a licensed dealer/store or repair outlet and
PROVE it before they would even sell to you...they would NOT sell to the
public.
>
>Now, I have to admit that the traditional parts outlets couldn't figure
>out Japanese integrated circuits. The difference in prices between Hatry
>Electronics' RCA "SK" equivalents and what I was able to pay MCM by mail
>were ridiculous: it was usually something like $23.00 for the SK version
>and $3.50 from MCM. The traditional outlets couldn't supply speakers that
>would fit anything, nor transformers with anything resembling useful
>voltages
**This further makes me wonder just what you are talking about. ECG, SK, HEP,
NTE, and the other replacement parts makers were almost (a few exceptions)
always lower cost than the original factory replacement part (OEM).
Occassionaly you would find some bulk bargain Jap or OEM (usually the same
thing) semi's on sale from a mail order parts house. You Reference MCM..which
is the Mail Order Equalivent of Radio Shack.
This is what makes me think we are takling about 2 different things. Retail
vs. Wholesale. In the Industry very few "Dealers" would buy anything from
MCM..mainly because they would sell to anyone..they advertised being a
"wholesaler to the industry only"..but yet like I said would sell to
anyone...the other reason is that MCM has ALWAYS been higher priced than ANY of
the other Wholesale Parts Suppliers, and altho some of their quality has
improved..most of what they sell is inferrior..They are a Mail Order Retailer!
DrVideoRx
kin...@adenine.frognet.net writes:
>
> Nope. Just an occasional customer who has kept an eye on the chain since
> 1968 or so. I liked Olson and Lafayette, too (I have an Olson audio
> generator, and a nice piece of equipment it is.) I was briefly the repair
> department for RS #2 in New Haven, CT. It was in 1971, I think.
>
> A lot of the affiliate franchises still exist. There are a couple here in
> southeast Ohio.
**A couple does NOT mean "alot"...not compared to the almost 98% at the start.
There is 1 (franchise) here in my area of WV.....he was one of the original
franchisees. There were 3 others in this area that I am aware of which are no
longer in business being substituted by "Company Stores" in the Malls, and we
also have a RS "outlet" store in the area. The one remaining franchise
remains only as an "associate store" (meaning he can only buy/stock/sell
"selected items"), and they have tried to run him out MANY times (he is a
personal friend and I am very familiar with his situation), but he really
doesn't care and has forced RS (in court) several times to provide him with
goods. He is ready to retire now, and the RS store was just a supplement (in
his rather large building) to his main business of heating/air conditioning
(sales and installation) and he also does motor and transformer rewinding ( a
pretty BIG business for him since he is the only one around here and in the
tri-state area doing that anymore)...so he doesn't need RS.
I think you'll find that, while Tandy played hardball
> with its franchisees in the 1970's, they played fair--
**This is hardly the norm for the Info I have heard and read, and certainly not
true from the time I personally became involved with RS around 1983. I was
approached by them to take over a failing franchise (because of divorce
according to the RS people). I won't bore you with all of the details, but
after being wined and dined by the RS people and getting to the point of the
final contract draft, before I declined because of all of the horror stories
(research) I came across, and because of the contract itself...RS wanted almost
(more in some cases) equal say in the running of my business, and absolutely
refused to give me any kind of time guarantee...It was at this time RS had
their major push on to take over their "successful" dealers, by tactics I would
hardly call fair (anything but!!)......They would open a "Company Store" right
on top of the "dealer or associate" store, sell the SAME RS products at much
lower prices..under the guise of "Grand Opening Sales"(that lasted a year??),
and what they called "direct product sales". They (RS) would raise the prices
to their dealers..while at the same time cutting the prices at the "Company
Stores". Product was all of a sudden "backordered" or mis-shipments made to
the dealers...this list goes on and on....one of the favorites was RS going in
on the dealers and telling them they had to BUY all NEW Shelving and Fixtures
to display RS products on..because they wanted ALL RS stores to look
alike....and yes, it was RS own cabinet plant that they bought that sold the
New Fixtures...at a cost of from $20,000 to $40,000 for the average store...and
if you didn't do it...according to the RS contracts..it was reason for
termination of the franchise...this goes on and on!
I bought out (the inventories of) 2 RS Dealer Stores that RS deliberately put
out of business with some of these methods......this was after I refused to
become a RS dealer (they opened a Company Store in the Mall....which never did
make a profit), and they server me with a "cease and desist" order..saying I
couldn't resell the RS products out of my store...needless to say they LOST,
and it cost them over $35,000 once they paid me and my attorney fees. There is
quite a bit more I could tell you about RS..but it is not really important.
I've been in this business 35 years now, and I do not know of anyone in the
Electronic Business that has ANYTHING GOOD at all to say about RS..they have
sort of become a joke now.....altho it is said now that they (RS) have made a
deal with Thomson (RCA & GE) to sell their products from the RS stores....that
oughta be good (for a laugh anyway) if it does happen!
Mark Zenier
DrVideoRx <drvi...@aol.comedyClub> wrote:
>**RS, like Sears and Wards (and others) has never manufactured anything
>themselves
They (or least some division of Tandy) made most of their computers.
Later they sold the manufacturing outfit to one of the clone firms (AST?).
Also wire and TV antennas.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com mze...@netcom.com Washington State resident
Roy Gordon
quite often!
Roy
Mark Kinsler wrote:
>
> SNIP
> When the electronics boom failed in the 1980's, Radio Shack nearly went
> under--but it survived, unlike Allied, Lafayette, Olson, and others.
SNIP
> There is some virtue in simple survival, and Radio Shack has survived:
> I'm still rooting for them. It's still the only place where you can buy a
> microswitch on a Sunday afternoon.
>
> ===============================
>
> Note to the howthingswork list: this was part of a discussion that started
> when a European poster on sci.electronics.basics inquired about the
> oft-mentioned Radio Shack electronics chain. Many of the responses were
> highly negative, which I think is an indicator the general youthfulness of
> the newsgroup.
>
> Ever notice that there's great resentment of any heavily-advertised
> product or store amongst kids lately? Consumer education came to the
> schools, and that's the result.
>
> Mark Kinsler
>
> newly-minted geezer.
> Wheeze...
>
Barry Burke Jr.
Mark Kinsler wrote:
>
> Lord Garth <LGa...@tantalus.com> wrote:
> >Mark, you need to come to Dallas if you want parts stores...
>
> I'm sure they're great places. But most cities have lost their
> traditional parts outlets. Pittsburgh's are gone completely, I think.
> New Haven, too (unless Hatry survives, which I doubt.)
Hatry died a slow death.
In CT we now (still) have Signal, Electronic Service Products (ESP), and
Cables and Connectors, all of which are quite good. Despite the name,
Cables & Connectors is a full line shop. ESP is actually a real repair
shop that stocks inventory for sale to the public. It's in North Haven.
Barry
--
************************************************
Barry Burke Jr. Middletown, Connecticut, USA
nos...@snet.net is my REAL email address!
To reply, do not edit it, simply click "reply"
************************************************
kingsnake
> I find it hard to believe that Radio Schlock makes little or nothing on
> their parts wall. I have been desperate too on a sunday afternoon for a
> Y adaptor or a connector, and each time I have been raped royally. Their
> stuff is junk, and I have found most of their sales people uninformed
> and largely ignorant of electronics.
I disagree. At a local store where I shop, the employees are QUITE sharp.
Furthermore, they stand behind their consumer products. I purchased a $3500
system back in 1996, and bought an $80.00 extended warranty.
It saved my butt,, as opposed to screwing me in it.
One hard drive crashes, leaving a bad sector or two, and they replaced the
hard drive; no questions asked. Just a short time ago, my monitor started to
go lomp-dick on me, and I sent it to the factory three times, after which they
gave me a new, better, Compac monitor right off the shelf; no shipping, no
pro-rating, no bullshit.
Admittedly, I am disappointed by their dwindling supply of thngs like
resistors, capacitors, etc ... these small parts move so slow they have to
charge a little bit more than the local Mom and Pop store....
.... but their products are not inferior neither do they suck.
> Have you ever called their 800 number and spoke with someone who has
> "answers"? If you have time, try it. Its quite entertaining...
> Lenny Stein.
Yes, I have. And, they have been more helpful than IBM, the company with whom
RS used to have a contract. Less hold time; more info.
PLUS: it was their "800" TSP number that authorized an in-store replacement
for my failing hardware.
Want to hear some more?
Against their own policy, the store manager could sense my frustration, and,
even after my being very rude and irate, once I calmed down, he offered me one
of his cheapo store monitors as a loaner while mine was shipped out.
Call them Radio Shark, if you want, but enough with the uneducated bashing of
a very excellent store.
Do I have to scan all of my receipts and post them, too? Chill, guys!
'Nuff said.
--
-John
Lord Garth
from National. The Radio Shack part is 1/4 watt while the National part is
1 watt. Tandy buys parametric failures for resale. Feel free to use their
components but understand the likely source of circuit problems.
Jon
kingsnake <gyr...@gyrogearloose.com> wrote in message
news:3789d67c...@news.supernews.com...
> On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:34:07 -0400, Lenny <captain...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > I find it hard to believe that Radio Schlock makes little or nothing on
> > their parts wall. I have been desperate too on a sunday afternoon for a
> > Y adaptor or a connector, and each time I have been raped royally. Their
> > stuff is junk, and I have found most of their sales people uninformed
> > and largely ignorant of electronics.
>
> I disagree. At a local store where I shop, the employees are QUITE sharp.
>
> Furthermore, they stand behind their consumer products. I purchased a
$3500
> system back in 1996, and bought an $80.00 extended warranty.
> It saved my butt,, as opposed to screwing me in it.
>
> One hard drive crashes, leaving a bad sector or two, and they replaced the
> hard drive; no questions asked. Just a short time ago, my monitor started
to
> go lomp-dick on me, and I sent it to the factory three times, after which
they
> gave me a new, better, Compac monitor right off the shelf; no shipping, no
> pro-rating, no bullshit.
>
> Admittedly, I am disappointed by their dwindling supply of thngs like
> resistors, capacitors, etc ... these small parts move so slow they have to
> charge a little bit more than the local Mom and Pop store....
>
> .... but their products are not inferior neither do they suck.
>
>
>
>
> > Have you ever called their 800 number and spoke with someone who has
> > "answers"? If you have time, try it. Its quite entertaining...
>
> > Lenny Stein.
>
Kevin Hoult
Alex C wrote:
> Hi,
> Just curious to know what is Radio Shack?
> Is it a retailer or some product? I found this name quite frequently
>
> Thanks
> Alex
As you have no doubt now gathered, it's different things to different people and
feelings run quite strong!
Like the issue of people using cell phones in cars, you get a variety of
opinions all of which are strongly held!
In chapter 11 of his book "PUBLICITY on the Internet," (Fire fighting and
Follow-up) Steve O'Keefe describes the activities of companies who scan
newsgroups looking for negative comments and post responses, sometimes as if the
responses come from participants rather than the company. I feel that Radio
Shack is one of those companies, so that may also contribute to the confusion.
One thing I have learned in reading the many posts on the topic is that RS holds
a very special place in the hearts of those of us who got into the electronics
hobby in the 1960s or 1970s. The ubiquity of the outlets (irrespective of the
value of the corporate strategy that drove that outcome) seems to have meant
that a lot of us did have a nearby RS we could visit and at least buy enough
stuff to burn a good soldering iron hole in our poor mothers' table tops,
kitchen counters or desk tops (I know I did!).
I had also heard (and now read) that RS was quite popular with some early home
computer hobbyists. Now is apparently a different story, and I too have some
feelings about how RS evolved, but you asked what it IS, not what I thought
about it!
DrVideoRx
Writes:
>They (or least some division of Tandy) made most of their computers.
>Later they sold the manufacturing outfit to one of the clone firms (AST?).
>Also wire and TV antennas.
>
>Mark Zenier
Hi Mark:
It is not really important what products they may or may not have made
themselves or for how long...this doesn't make them ANY better...their history
and the facts speak for themselves...and no matter how much you sugar coat a
raisin...it doesn't change or alter the fact that there is a shriveled up,
dried out grape inside!
Also FYI, I don't know of which computers you are speaking..RS sold so many
different ones over the years....but I believe the one they simply called their
"Color Computer" was their best seller..there was a model # (several), and was
the one that they started out selling for around $1200. cutting the price in
half every few months until the last ones (and most) were sold on a sale for
$99. As far as RS making their own...I don't believe that is true...if you
look at the Tandy annual reports (to their stockholders...yes, I had Tandy
stock from about 1979 to 1988) you will see where they list what they call
partners..which meant they bought some stock in a particular company (mostly
asian) and contracted to have so many units (computers and later phones) made
to their (Tandys) specs.
Back in the late 70's or early 80's RCA sold their antenna plant to a group
of investors who sold the same antennas under the name "Permacolor". Tandy did
wind up with partial or complete ownership of this..I'm not sure which, and
like I stated above..it's really NOT important.
The Sokos Family
DrVideoRx wrote in message <19990709133102...@ng-fk1.aol.com>...
>>From: mze...@netcom.com (Mark Zenier)
>>They (or least some division of Tandy) made most of their computers.
>>Later they sold the manufacturing outfit to one of the clone firms (AST?).
>>Also wire and TV antennas.
>Hi Mark:
> It is not really important what products they may or may not have made
>themselves or for how long...this doesn't make them ANY better...their
history
>and the facts speak for themselves...and no matter how much you sugar coat
a
>raisin...it doesn't change or alter the fact that there is a shriveled up,
>dried out grape inside!
Radio Shack sells good stuff and bad stuff. It all used to be private
labled,
but now I see them carrying other brand names in their stores (on the rare
occasions I step foot in one). The good stuff is just as good as stuff made
by other folks (after all, it is made by other folks), and the bad stuff is,
well, bad.
You get what you pay for. I've never been all that impressed with their
prices,
but if you get something on sale it's not too bad, IMHO.
> Also FYI, I don't know of which computers you are speaking..RS sold so
many
>different ones over the years....but I believe the one they simply called
their
>"Color Computer" was their best seller..there was a model # (several), and
was
>the one that they started out selling for around $1200. cutting the price
in
>half every few months until the last ones (and most) were sold on a sale
for
>$99. As far as RS making their own...I don't believe that is true...
Tandy used to make their own up until the 486 era (somewhere therabouts)
when they sold off their computer manufacturing (which also made Grid
computers)
to AST. Since then I've seen IBM machines in their stores - they might have
other
clones there as well (I don't shop there very often). The trash-80's, co-co,
and
IBM clones like the 1000 series were all Tandy originals.
Tandy was famous for making things "better." Their first clones had an
expansion
bus that was only compatible with Tandy equipment (another company
eventually
made a converter to make the thing into XT bus slots). Several models left
off the -5
line completely, which was only a problem to the rare cards that used it.
They made a
16 color display that was better than 4 color CGA, but it wasn't compatible
with
EGA and wasn't widely supported by software of that era. They sold Seagate
hard
drives under the name "Tandy SmartDrive" (or something like that). Right on
the top
of the drive it said "Do not low level format." The drive was shipped with a
special
disk made by Tandy. The first thing this install disk did was low level
formatted the
drive (can someone explain this one, please? Anyone from Tandy out there?).
They
even made a couple of the rare XT 286's (286 cpu's in an XT architecture),
which
they sold to gullible customers who really wanted an AT clone, but got taken
by
the 286 cpu. They also sold one of the few 80186 machines I've ever seen,
running
some bastardized version of MS-DOS (made by Microsoft?). The last computer I
took a look at in detail (while waiting for the wife to do some other xmas
shopping)
was a 486 with some whiz-bang multimedia chip installed. I never saw any
software
that took advantage of this special chip. So much for making it "better."
A lot of these machines (the PC clones, not the earlier ones) were sold
under other
names like Grid. Grid was another division of Tandy, which I believe was
more
popular in Europe (someone on the other side of the pond will have to verify
this). There used to be a Grid store in Baltimore, but it died long ago.
I've never seen any sales statistics, but I've seen a lot more Trash 80's
than
Co-Co's. The lowest price I saw for a Co-Co was $25 (I still passed it up).
Competition from other computers like the C64, Atari, etc (anyone remember
the
war of the 8 bitters?) pretty much killed the Co-Co.
I think Tandy owned a few different manufacturing plants (or at least held
interest in some), but the only one I remember was Tandy wire and cable.
Do they still make leather?
>like I stated above..it's really NOT important.
No, not important, but if I've managed to waste a few brain cells
remembering
this stuff (God knows why...) then I might as well share it. :-)
>~From The Electronics Vaults of DrVideo ~
>~ EMail Replies require the Removal of : "edyClub"
--
Mark Sokos - Electrical Engineer, Computer Geek
(er, programmer) and no talent bum musician
E-mail: so...@desupernet.net
Web: http://users.desupernet.net/sokos/
comp.arch.hobbyist FAQ, electronics tutorials, etc.
Mark Zenier
Lord Garth <LGa...@tantalus.com> wrote:
>Simple test, compare Radio Shack's LM386 spec sheet with the spec sheet
>from National. The Radio Shack part is 1/4 watt while the National part is
>1 watt. Tandy buys parametric failures for resale. Feel free to use their
> components but understand the likely source of circuit problems.
>
>Jon
National has/had several versions of the LM386. The -1 version is 250
mW, the -3 is 500 mW and the -4 is 700 mW, as of the 1980 databook.
Mark Zenier
>>traditional parts outlets. Pittsburgh's are gone completely, I think.
>>has one, sort of. Most moderate-sized cities had at least two stores.
>
>
>**I sure find it hard to believe that all of Pittsburghs Parts houses are gone.
> But first I guess I should clarift just what you mean by "parts outlets" are
>you talking about "Radio Shack" type Retail Stores?, or the wholesale Parts
>suppliers?
>The Wholesale Electronic Parts Suppliers (the good ones anyway..true
>wholesale), required that you be a licensed dealer/store or repair outlet and
>PROVE it before they would even sell to you...they would NOT sell to the
>public.
That's because there was an organized campaign by the service shops in
the early mid '70s, to boycott those outlets that sold retail. This,
along with the decline in replacement vacuum tube sales, killed off most
of the local parts distributors. It deprived them of non-service sales
just when the hobby computer field was taking off.
It certainly didn't improve the image of the local service shops. Most
of the local hams and computer builders in an area I lived in where this
happened considered the local TV repairmen to be degenerate piratical
pond scum.
>>Now, I have to admit that the traditional parts outlets couldn't figure
>>out Japanese integrated circuits. The difference in prices between Hatry
>>Electronics' RCA "SK" equivalents and what I was able to pay MCM by mail
>>were ridiculous: it was usually something like $23.00 for the SK version
>>and $3.50 from MCM. The traditional outlets couldn't supply speakers that
>>would fit anything, nor transformers with anything resembling useful
>>voltages
>
>
>**This further makes me wonder just what you are talking about. ECG, SK, HEP,
>NTE, and the other replacement parts makers were almost (a few exceptions)
>always lower cost than the original factory replacement part (OEM).
>Occassionaly you would find some bulk bargain Jap or OEM (usually the same
>thing) semi's on sale from a mail order parts house. You Reference MCM..which
>is the Mail Order Equalivent of Radio Shack.
>This is what makes me think we are takling about 2 different things. Retail
>vs. Wholesale. In the Industry very few "Dealers" would buy anything from
>MCM..mainly because they would sell to anyone..they advertised being a
>"wholesaler to the industry only"..but yet like I said would sell to
>anyone...the other reason is that MCM has ALWAYS been higher priced than ANY of
>the other Wholesale Parts Suppliers, and altho some of their quality has
>improved..most of what they sell is inferrior..They are a Mail Order Retailer!
That's because there are at least 3 levels. Industrial, (like Allied,
Newark, Digikey, Mouser, and a whole lot of people harder to deal with),
Service, (like your vendors), and the local outfits that you call
Retail. When a part is currently being used in the local electronics
manufacturing, you can get it from an Industrial for real cheap.
When it's so specialzed that its only use is in the equipment you're
repairing or it's obselete, you have to go for a "Factory" repair part that
has been marked up by the OEM (Thomson, Philips, etc), or a "Universal"
part from NTE or ECG. In both of these cases, it's the same part only
(as I figure it) about 8 times as costly. (And what's specialzed here
may be stock parts overseas where the equipment is made, so outfits
like MCM and Dalbani can bypass the OEM and import their own parts).
Distributors can specialize by price or convenience. (The ones you deal
with obviously decided to only sell to accounts to avoid the nickel
and dime trade). If they go the convenience route, like MCM (along
with Newark, a divsion of a very big UK distributor, Farnell) and the
ones named above, they pretty much sell to anybody, (but their prices
are higher). They don't know you from Wozniak, so they don't get pissy
about credentials, least the bad PR come back and bite them in the ass.
Gary L. Hunt
order supplier that was aimed (at least partly)
at consumers didn't make it; the Allied Electronics
industrial arm went on to become one of the larger
nationwide electronic distributors around.
Dbowey
alter the fact that there is a shriveled up, dried out grape inside!"
I prefer to think there is, potentially, a great wine inside screaming to be
let out.
BillK2
company. I use them weekly. I use Radio shack a lot on field service trips.
They may not always have what you want, but in a pinch they are old reliable.
I just ignore "do you want a cell phone with that?"
Bill K
DrVideoRx
Writes:
>
>That's because there was an organized campaign by the service shops in
>the early mid '70s, to boycott those outlets that sold retail. This,
>along with the decline in replacement vacuum tube sales, killed off most
>of the local parts distributors. It deprived them of non-service sales
>just when the hobby computer field was taking off.
>
Hi Mark,
I don't know that you could call this an organized campaign that was
sparked by a specific event, but in the 50s, 60's,and 70's people knew the
difference between "wholesale" and "retail" and this was respected at all
levels of commerce (by most anyway), and this was not something that just
applied to the Electronics Industry...but to every industry.
This process of from...
manufacturer/jobber..TO..wharehouser/wholesaler..TO..retail/store, has all but
collapsed, and the breakdown is mostly to blame for the mess/confusion that
the US consumer marketing system is in, and why so many cheap and shoddy
products are being sold today.
> When a part is currently being used in the local electronics
>manufacturing, you can get it from an Industrial for real cheap.
>When it's so specialzed that its only use is in the equipment you're
>repairing or it's obselete, you have to go for a "Factory" repair part that
>has been marked up by the OEM (Thomson, Philips, etc), or a "Universal"
**Most parts (except for small common parts like resistors and caps, etc) in
Home Consumer Electronics ARE specialized in nature and are usually not
available at an industrial supplier level. This is also true of most of the
major semi's in these products...the parts were designed for that specific
product...not the product designed around existing parts.
In the early days of TV, the manufacturers tried (and were fairly
successful until 1970 when the Fair Trade Act was declared void by the US
Supreme Court) to control who/when/where/and for how much they sold their
repair parts to/for. This is what prompted companies like Thordarsen, Triad,
Sylvania, Motorola, Merit, Sprague, Miller, Lindal, Centalab, and dozens of
others to start making/selling replacement parts. At this time Thomson and
Philips were still in Europe (where they belonged) and had nothing to do with
the US electronic market.
> In both of these cases, it's the same part only
>(as I figure it) about 8 times as costly. (And what's specialzed here
>may be stock parts overseas where the equipment is made, so outfits
>like MCM and Dalbani can bypass the OEM and import their own parts)
**I do have to disagree here...OEM parts and "Generic" (ECG, SK,ect. as they
are now called) are NOT the same and in some cases vary greatly and will not
work as substitutes in some applications. Even more so with todays units.
Surprisingly some generics are actually better than OEMs. I assume you mean
the OEM is 8X the Generic...I don't know about 8X but generic is definitely
less in cost. MCM is relatively a newer co (and it is really surprising that
they have lasted this long), and as you surely have gathered by now..not one
that I like or do business with. Dalbani on the other hand (I don't really
know how long they have been around)..I just started buying from them in the
80s when their only place was in CA, but their price on VCR idlers was the
lowest anywhere and I bought 100s at a time..so they paid the shipping.
I think probally our whole discussion is moot..since our Industry is
quickly becoming that of a throw-away, disposable one, which doesn't require
service, or parts, or parts suppliers.
Lord Garth
I personally tested Mostek BIN 8 rejected MK5092N tone dialers for Tandy.
These were used in their telephones. Ever wonder why, on a large portion
of their phones, going off hook on an extension caused the last number
redial to fail? Parametric rejects. We used a battery to supplement the
dialer power. We often piggybacked tone dialers onto pulse dialers
because the tone dialer originally had only one number memory while the
pulse dialer had ten memories. The keypad inputs became outputs when
dialing from the memory. One only had to separate the tone output and
couple it into the telephone audio. We also replaced the standard 10 PPS
dialers with 20 PPS versions because 'it was there'!!!
Re the various grades of the LM386, the Shack does not (or did not at the
time)
print any dash numbers on the packaging. This would seem to indicate
prime parts but they were not.
Jon
Mark Zenier <mze...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:7m7s3d$5...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com...
> In article
<D39875A6F80761D6.DD10DC9C...@lp.airnews.net>,
> Lord Garth <LGa...@tantalus.com> wrote:
> >Simple test, compare Radio Shack's LM386 spec sheet with the spec sheet
> >from National. The Radio Shack part is 1/4 watt while the National part
is
> >1 watt. Tandy buys parametric failures for resale. Feel free to use
their
> > components but understand the likely source of circuit problems.
> >
> >Jon
>
> National has/had several versions of the LM386. The -1 version is 250
> mW, the -3 is 500 mW and the -4 is 700 mW, as of the 1980 databook.
>
Mark Zenier
DrVideoRx <drvi...@aol.comedyClub> wrote:
>>From: mze...@netcom.com (Mark Zenier)
>>
>>That's because there was an organized campaign by the service shops in
>>the early mid '70s, to boycott those outlets that sold retail. This,
>>along with the decline in replacement vacuum tube sales, killed off most
>>of the local parts distributors. It deprived them of non-service sales
>>just when the hobby computer field was taking off.
> I don't know that you could call this an organized campaign that was
>sparked by a specific event, but in the 50s, 60's,and 70's people knew the
>difference between "wholesale" and "retail" and this was respected at all
>levels of commerce (by most anyway), and this was not something that just
>applied to the Electronics Industry...but to every industry.
Somebody said in a recent posting that there was an campaign run by
one of the service organization or one of the magazines. (Or it
could have just been the pet project of a columnist or editor).
>> When a part is currently being used in the local electronics
>>manufacturing, you can get it from an Industrial for real cheap.
>>When it's so specialzed that its only use is in the equipment you're
>>repairing or it's obselete, you have to go for a "Factory" repair part that
>>has been marked up by the OEM (Thomson, Philips, etc), or a "Universal"
> > In both of these cases, it's the same part only
>>(as I figure it) about 8 times as costly. (And what's specialzed here
>>may be stock parts overseas where the equipment is made, so outfits
>>like MCM and Dalbani can bypass the OEM and import their own parts)
>**I do have to disagree here...OEM parts and "Generic" (ECG, SK,ect. as they
>are now called) are NOT the same and in some cases vary greatly and will not
>work as substitutes in some applications. Even more so with todays units.
>Surprisingly some generics are actually better than OEMs.
Some generic discrete transistors seem to come from guys with a bottle
of acetone and a rubber stamp making kit in their back room.
The Sokos Family
the PC I use at work as an S908 bus sniffer died.
So, I pulled out an old DecStation 316 we had
lying around (a 386 PC made by Digital) and put
the S908 card into it. To my surprise, the motherboard
was plainly marked "Tandy Corporation."
I knew that many Tandy computers were sold under
other names (like Grid), but I never knew that they
made machines for the likes of Digital.
You learn something new every day. :-)
Lumpy
> ...They may not always have what you want,
> but in a pinch they are old reliable.
> I just ignore "do you want a cell phone with that?"
I kind of like the opposite approach.
When I need to make an emergency run to Rat Shack
for that 'one little part', I like to walk in and
find the newest Shark in the pool. Start by asking
him about a 'couple' of satellite dishes or a dozen
cell phones for my company.
The manager (a ham that knows me) usually rolls his
eyes and chuckles but the newbie is drooling.
'Well thanks, maybe I'll just take a couple
of these resistors for now'
Lumpy AB0GD
--
The Very Unofficial Colorado APRS Page
http://www.digitalcartography.com/aprs.htm
No SPAM
> On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:34:07 -0400, Lenny <captain...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I find it hard to believe that Radio Schlock makes little or nothing on
> > their parts wall. I have been desperate too on a sunday afternoon for a
> > Y adaptor or a connector, and each time I have been raped royally. Their
> > stuff is junk, and I have found most of their sales people uninformed
> > and largely ignorant of electronics.
>
> I disagree. At a local store where I shop, the employees are QUITE sharp.
>
The salesdroids are untrained, and don't have much knowledge of electronics. I've
seen our local sales people come out of the back room when I walk in (DING-DONG)
and I've asked them what they're doing. They have told me that they are taking a
training exam of some sort.
So it's not as if The Shack doesn't try, problem is that many of the sharper ones
get into management and leave the store behind, or else go to a better paying job,
which isn't hard to do with Radio Shaft. SO you have to cut them a little slack.
>
> Furthermore, they stand behind their consumer products. I purchased a $3500
> system back in 1996, and bought an $80.00 extended warranty.
> It saved my butt,, as opposed to screwing me in it.
The extended warranty is the biggest ripoff there is. Just read about it in the
consumer reports and newspaper columns and on TV.
> Admittedly, I am disappointed by their dwindling supply of thngs like
> resistors, capacitors, etc ... these small parts move so slow they have to
> charge a little bit more than the local Mom and Pop store....
>
> .... but their products are not inferior neither do they suck.
>
The reason why is that they have been selling name-brand stuff for the last year
or two, like Maxell tapes and Duracell Batteries. They even sell some non
'realistic' or whatever brands of entertainment electronics.
And you can special order a lot of parts thru their Radio Shack Unlimited
catalog. Just go to the kiosk and thumb thru the catalog, and buy what you want,
and the price is not cheap, but it will be at your door in a few days.
No SPAM
> Simple test, compare Radio Shack's LM386 spec sheet with the spec sheet
> from National. The Radio Shack part is 1/4 watt while the National part is
> 1 watt. Tandy buys parametric failures for resale. Feel free to use their
> components but understand the likely source of circuit problems.
> Jon
Not true. If their component says it's a CD4017 or whatever the part number,
then it will meet the specs that the part is designed for. All you have to do
is call their fax back number on the back of the part package and they will fax
you back the data sheet for that part in a few minutes. And the data sheet will
not have stupid errors on it like the packages often do.
>
> kingsnake <gyr...@gyrogearloose.com> wrote in message
> news:3789d67c...@news.supernews.com...
> > On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:34:07 -0400, Lenny <captain...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
[snip]
No SPAM
> [snip]
> couple it into the telephone audio. We also replaced the standard 10 PPS
> dialers with 20 PPS versions because 'it was there'!!!
>
It sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. The pulse dialers
that I've seen have a pin that can select between 10 and 20 PPS, and most of
the time this is a solid board trace that's permanently connected to be 10PPS.
Probably because that's the bell standard, even tho most COs can go 20.
Lord Garth
pulse dialers on the market. I still have the data books if you are that
curious.
Jon
No SPAM <nos...@rsccd.org> wrote in message
news:3793D27E...@rsccd.org...
Bruce
:-)
Kevin Hoult <muds...@ricochet.net> wrote in article
<3786028F...@ricochet.net>...
Bruce
religion and politics. :-)