Calculus website promoting SMC

[kcrisman]

This is more of an FYI:

https://www.calculuscenter.com/make-your-calculus-life-easier-with-sage

Not quite sure if I like the premise of the site overall - for instance, quite a few "real analysis" type problems are apparently solved with a subscription - but anyway, it's hard to not smile with a quote like this (about SMC):

"This means you have the smartest people on the planet supporting a platform that you can use for FREE 24/7 to solve almost any math problem.  This alone should convince you to check it out."

[Dennis Jarecke]

I'm the author of the site.  Just looking for some more details on "Not quite sure if I like the premise of the site overall."  Do you not like the subscription and would like to see things for free or that there is too much real analysis and not enough traditional problems.  Anyway, really enjoying learning about Sage.  Thanks to everyone for the great platform! 

[kcrisman]

I'm the author of the site. 

Hi!  Thanks for using Sage.  

 

Just looking for some more details on "Not quite sure if I like the premise of the site overall."  Do you not like the subscription and would like to see things for free or that there is too much real analysis and not enough traditional problems. 

I think my concern was that as opposed to giving answers to calculus problems, which pretty much zillions of software and websites do, finding many answers to real analysis type questions makes it a little harder to teach such a course.  One might also note that anything where one pays to learn (including where I work) can potentially exacerbate structural inequity.  But I kind of doubt that a real analysis course is a big enough constituency to make that as much of a problem in that particular way.   I had a really long continuation of this all written, but I think I'll leave it at that.

[William Stein]

On Mar 6, 2014 9:34 AM, "kcrisman" <kcri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> I'm the author of the site. 
>
>
> Hi!  Thanks for using Sage.  
>
>  
>>
>> Just looking for some more details on "Not quite sure if I like the premise of the site overall."  Do you not like the subscription and would like to see things for free or that there is too much real analysis and not enough traditional problems. 
>
>
>
> I think my concern was that as opposed to giving answers to calculus problems, which pretty much zillions of software and websites do, finding many answers to real analysis type questions makes it a little harder to teach such a course.  One might also note that anything where one pays to learn (including where I work) can potentially exacerbate structural inequity.

Do the students at your university pay tuition?  I "recently discovered" that a lot of students pay a LOT to learn... A lot.

>   But I kind of doubt that a real analysis course is a big enough constituency to make that as much of a problem in that particular way.   I had a really long continuation of this all written, but I think I'll leave it at that.
>

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[Dennis Jarecke]

You bring up some good points.  It is hard to know as an author what content to write and how much.  Having problem answers available in books has been around for a long time and the internet has a huge number of free and paid sites to get answers.  While I have no doubt many students use these sites to cheat, I also think many students use the sites to validate their answers.  I actually view this as a good thing.  If a student is up late finishing a homework problem and has questions about it, then the most efficient way for them to get answers is from solutions on the internet.  The questions and concepts won't be quite as fresh in the morning when they talk to a prof or TA as at the point when they are thinking about.  I also think that the internet is much more "approachable" for many.  For example, I have known profs and TAs who have put their office hours early in the morning so students don't come!  I recently heard of a Calculus class that had 600 students!  It's hard to get the answers and attention you need from a TA or prof in a class that size.  In other words, from class sizes to approachability to efficiency in learning, I think problem solutions on the internet serve a positive purpose beyond just trying to cheat on a homework assignment.

As for making it harder to teach a course.  I think that can be a problem, but a good prof can slip in meaningful problems on a test that can distinguish the good students from the bad. 

I'm also curious about your "long continuation."  In a perfect world, how should math education be structured, incentivized and delivered?

[Andrey Novoseltsev]

There is also something to be said about thinking of students as cheaters. The hardest exams for me were on manifolds at UW - we had a week to work from home, allowed to use course notes, old homework, and our textbook, but nothing else and no discussions with each other. Some problems were actually from the textbook, so I imagine they may have been assigned before and solutions were available if one tried to find them. It was quite satisfying to be trusted enough to work in such a setting and I prefer to believe that most other students (or even all) were not violating conditions as well.

Kind of similar to not selling DRM-free movies/music/etc since everyone would just copy them after the first sale if it is effortless. In a more perfect world all digital content is free to get once it is made and those who feel inclined contribute what/when/if then can/want. And nobody worries about their students cheating because these students understand that they should not.

Andrey

[David Joyner]

Andrey N. - well said.

I hope everyone reads your reply.

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[kcrisman]

> Kind of similar to not selling DRM-free movies/music/etc since everyone 
> would just copy them after the first sale if it is effortless. In a more
> perfect world all digital content is free to get once it is made and those
> who feel inclined contribute what/when/if then can/want. And nobody worries
> about their students cheating because these students understand that they
> should not.

I hope everyone reads your reply. 

Wow, I missed the further discussion on this.  Suffice to say now just that I very much sympathize with these comments, and agree with Dennis that many students do use software etc. for verifying, not cheating per se.  The main point I want to make here is that access to these things can perpetuate or exacerbate existing inequality of access.  

For instance, I usually don't allow calculators in my calculus tests not because I think calculators/computers are useless and everyone should be able to do a complicated partial fractions decomposition and integration by rote, but because I can't assume that all my students have access to the same kinds of technology in such a test - or, what is equivalent, have equivalent training/experience in how to use it.  This is true with take-home, in-class, internet, no internet, whatever.  So rather than write a really hard exam assuming they do have that access (or waste a lot of time teaching them how when that isn't the point), I go the other way.

This is even true for checking, by the way; checking a tricky problem with a calculator when another person can't/doesn't know how gives a significant time advantage, and using the calculator to "get" the answer gives a big advantage to someone even if you have to show the work.  (I love Archimedes' quote on this relative to the discovery of the volume of a pyramid, where he says that Democritus should get significant credit for discovering it without proof, even if Eudoxus ended up proving it.)

Anyway, others do it their way, and there is no magical solution or optimal way.  I just wanted to raise the issue - and cheating is a significant one that I view as not exactly the same as DRM, though I understand the allusion.  Have fun and good luck!

- kcrisman