el capitan statement

[William Stein]

Hi,

We need to post a statement on the Sagemath.org website about the El
Capitan os x 10.11 situation, since I'm getting (or will be getting)
emails "left and right" from people freaking out about this.
Here's one answer -- how could it be reworded to be right?

---
Hi,

As far as I know, there is no way to run Sage on OS X anymore (except
by using VirtualBox), and I don't know when/if this will change.
Here's one recent discussion of ongoing work:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/-ZVSh5adEkY

Basically apple made many fundamental changes to OS X 10.11 that
fundamentally breaks a large ecosystem of open source software.

Fixing these things will take time, and I have no idea how long.

William
---

--
William (http://wstein.org)

[David Roe]

Do you want to mention the possibility of disabling system integrity protection, or are you purposefully avoiding that option?

David

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William (http://wstein.org)

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[William Stein]

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015, David Roe <roed...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you want to mention the possibility of disabling system integrity protection, or are you purposefully avoiding that option?

David

To what extent does it actually really work?  To what extent?  I've got conflicting reports. 

I think we should mention it.   

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Sent from my massive iPhone 6 plus.

[David Roe]

The only reports I've seen, on https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/OBv5x1v3_6M, have been positive.  What conflicting reports have you received?  I haven't tried it myself; I'm still running 10.9.

Here's a summary for how to disable it:

1. Reboot, holding down Cmd-R to start in Recovery Mode.

2. In a terminal window, execute csrutil disable

3. Reboot back into non-Recovery Mode.

Here's a warning for why you might hesitate (this is my understanding of the issue; someone please correct me if I'm wrong):

In OS X 10.11, Apple changed the operating system to no longer allow modification of certain system folders, even when logged in as root.  They made this change to make it more difficult for malware to affect the operating system, but it has the side effect of disrupting Sage's current build process.  Disabling system integrity protection may allow you to build Sage, but it also disables a security feature of your operating system.

David

[William Stein]

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015, David Roe <ro...@math.harvard.edu> wrote:

The only reports I've seen, on https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/OBv5x1v3_6M, have been positive.  What conflicting reports have you received?  

I think Tom Judson said it doesn't work.

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2015-10-07 19:31, David Roe wrote:
> In OS X 10.11, Apple changed the operating system to no longer allow
> modification of certain system folders, even when logged in as root.

Why would Sage need modification to system folders? Sage can be compiled
as an ordinary user, so I don't see how this is relevant.

[David Roe]

I'm confused by that as well, but apparently some people have succeeded at building Sage after making this change.  Maybe there are other ways that disabling SIP affects Sage's build.  I was trying to describe the reasons that users might hesitate to adapt this workaround.

David

[William Stein]

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015, David Roe <roed...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm confused by that as well, but apparently some people have succeeded at building Sage after making this change.  Maybe there are other ways that disabling SIP affects Sage's build.  I was trying to describe the reasons that users might hesitate to adapt this workaround.

David

SIP also doesn't pass certain environment variables down on fork, which breaks running or building sage completely. 

 

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:00 PM, Jeroen Demeyer <jdem...@cage.ugent.be> wrote:

On 2015-10-07 19:31, David Roe wrote:

In OS X 10.11, Apple changed the operating system to no longer allow
modification of certain system folders, even when logged in as root.

Why would Sage need modification to system folders? Sage can be compiled as an ordinary user, so I don't see how this is relevant.

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[William Stein]

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015, Thomas Judson <twju...@gmail.com> wrote:

I understand the problem a bit better now, but I haven’t tried disabling the system integrity protection yet.

Oh good.  I thought you had.  Very good to know disability sip works.  

 

Tom

[Dima Pasechnik]

this is probably indeed irrelevant. What is relevant is they apparently managed to break LD_LIBRARY_PATH etc things,
and this prevents one from doing pretty much anything that relies on this.

Also, please note that there are two  different systems OSX 10.11, and OX 11.? (El Capitan), which both suffer from this.

[David Roe]

What is OX 11.?? I know that the Sage thread was titled OS X 11.11, but I thought that was a typo....

David

[Harald Schilly]

I've added a very short red banner to the download osx/intel download page for all mirrors. It does link back here to sage-devel, to the last two threads I found about that. 

What I don't want is to clutter the main index.html page with this. If this banner is not enough, then we could also add something to the specific download page. 

I don't know how to word this best, but for now there is at least something there. What puzzles me about all this is, that even packages like git are broken. Why is this going on here?

-- h

[Dima Pasechnik]

that SIP thing breaks LD_LIBRARY_PATH mechanics. That's, you need to do something else (RPATH) if you want to have dynamic libraries in non-standard locations.

(although AFAIK, /usr/local is OK)

-- h

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 7 October 2015 11:11:47 UTC-7, David Roe wrote:

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Dima Pasechnik <dim...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 October 2015 11:00:14 UTC-7, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:

On 2015-10-07 19:31, David Roe wrote:
> In OS X 10.11, Apple changed the operating system to no longer allow
> modification of certain system folders, even when logged in as root.

Why would Sage need modification to system folders? Sage can be compiled
as an ordinary user, so I don't see how this is relevant.

this is probably indeed irrelevant. What is relevant is they apparently managed to break LD_LIBRARY_PATH etc things,
and this prevents one from doing pretty much anything that relies on this.

Also, please note that there are two  different systems OSX 10.11, and OX 11.? (El Capitan), which both suffer from this.

What is OX 11.?? I know that the Sage thread was titled OS X 11.11, but I thought that was a typo....

my bad; I didn't check, and my Macs are on the other side of Atlantic at the moment.

[François Bissey]

Well my opinion on the need for rpath at the moment is that it is
rubbish - technically it is in the nice to have bucket but it is not
completely the problem. Fixing the install_name makes all those failed
import because I cannot find libsingular.dylib go away.
Now I have a segfault which is not necessarily better but is almost
certainly not linked to DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH stuff.

Francois

[François Bissey]

There is now a dedicated ticket for this.
http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19370

Francois

[Juan Luis Varona]

What is OX 11.?? I know that the Sage thread was titled OS X 11.11, but I thought that was a typo....

Yes, it is a typo (my typo, sorry). The system is OS X 10.11 (El Capitan) but I wrote "Sage in Mac OSX 11.11 (El Capitan)" in my message of July 14 on this list, when I noticed that it was impossible to use Sage in public beta versions of OS X 10.11.

Now, I'm using Sage on OS X 10.11 (teaching in my university) disabling SIP with this above mentioned trick:

1. Reboot, holding down Cmd-R to start in Recovery Mode.

2. In a terminal window, execute csrutil disable

3. Reboot back into non-Recovery Mode.

(But, of course, to recommend it in general is not a good solution.)

Note that also texlive and TeXShop had problems with SIP on OS X 10.11, but they were corrected time ago. Something about it can be read in "TeXShop Changes 3.52" in http://pages.uoregon.edu/koch/texshop/changes_3.html

http://tug.org/mactex/elcapitan.html

http://tug.org/mactex/UpdatingForElCapitan.pdf

I suppose that with sage is much more complicate.

Yours,

Juan Luis Varona