Maker space challenge : Design/Cut a fix to alter/straighten out a bowed surface.
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Craig
Oct 15, 2016, 8:46:58 PM10/15/16
to 10BitWorks
Ok,
Looking for comments/suggestions/help for the following problem.
e.g. something that can be done at 10bitworks.
Ran into a real word problem, that would seem a simple fix -- once
a template with appropriate measurements is designed.
The problem:
The piece of equipment has two sides attached to a solid bottom.
The sides attached to the bottom & bottom have bowed in the center,
resulting in the piece of equipment acting like a rocking chair instead of
being flat and stable.
Proposal:
Separate bottom from rest of box. Scan in sides so that a shim can
be designed/cut to fit the bow & result in a straight surface
where the box bottom is attached. I'm hoping that just reattaching the
box bottom to the now flat sides will straighten out the
box bottom, too! -- if not, still need the shim but also need to purchase
a new, flat bottom ($$$).
Questions:
a) Does the space have the ability to scan in 2ft x 2ft objects?
b) Is there a cnc at the space with the capability to cut/shape a 2ft x 2ft object(s)?
The finished object(s) would be ~ 1/2" wide, between 1/4" to 2" high and 24" long.
CNC MUST be used, as the material used, sintra is pvc based. e.g. gives off chlorine when laser cut.
Chlorine is very corrosive/destructive to laser cutter parts.
I would switch to wood, but area is high stress so wood part(s) would split along wood grain(s).
c) Alternatively, more difficult/more work, could cut out grooves in a new bottom to fit bottom of sides &
make things level (vs. using a shim). Wood bottom replacement is ok with this option.
I'm guessing the CNC machine can cut up to a 5/8" depth groove with no issues.
Open to other ideas/suggestions/options.
Thanks,
Craig
Looking for comments/suggestions/help for the following problem.
e.g. something that can be done at 10bitworks.
Ran into a real word problem, that would seem a simple fix -- once
a template with appropriate measurements is designed.
The problem:
The piece of equipment has two sides attached to a solid bottom.
The sides attached to the bottom & bottom have bowed in the center,
resulting in the piece of equipment acting like a rocking chair instead of
being flat and stable.
Proposal:
Separate bottom from rest of box. Scan in sides so that a shim can
be designed/cut to fit the bow & result in a straight surface
where the box bottom is attached. I'm hoping that just reattaching the
box bottom to the now flat sides will straighten out the
box bottom, too! -- if not, still need the shim but also need to purchase
a new, flat bottom ($$$).
Questions:
a) Does the space have the ability to scan in 2ft x 2ft objects?
b) Is there a cnc at the space with the capability to cut/shape a 2ft x 2ft object(s)?
The finished object(s) would be ~ 1/2" wide, between 1/4" to 2" high and 24" long.
CNC MUST be used, as the material used, sintra is pvc based. e.g. gives off chlorine when laser cut.
Chlorine is very corrosive/destructive to laser cutter parts.
I would switch to wood, but area is high stress so wood part(s) would split along wood grain(s).
c) Alternatively, more difficult/more work, could cut out grooves in a new bottom to fit bottom of sides &
make things level (vs. using a shim). Wood bottom replacement is ok with this option.
I'm guessing the CNC machine can cut up to a 5/8" depth groove with no issues.
Open to other ideas/suggestions/options.
Thanks,
Craig
Matt Grooms
Oct 16, 2016, 11:55:34 AM10/16/16
to 10BitWorks on behalf of Craig
PICTUREx1 = WORDx1000
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Craig
Oct 16, 2016, 5:35:36 PM10/16/16
to 10BitWorks
Ok,
Bit difficult to see things in photographs -- so posting a few different angles.
Box is a side shot of an actual box to get an idea of the type of object being discussed.
Full bottom shot is full box bottom edge shot with box on side looking down from top.
End gap is a close up shot of one of the sides -- from same perspective as full bottom shot.
End edge is a shot looking out across the box bottom from the edge of the bottom. The curvature is obvious in this photo.
Craig
On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 10:55:34 AM UTC-5, Matt Grooms wrote:
<snarky humor comments -- NSFW>
Bit difficult to see things in photographs -- so posting a few different angles.
Box is a side shot of an actual box to get an idea of the type of object being discussed.
Full bottom shot is full box bottom edge shot with box on side looking down from top.
End gap is a close up shot of one of the sides -- from same perspective as full bottom shot.
End edge is a shot looking out across the box bottom from the edge of the bottom. The curvature is obvious in this photo.
Craig
On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 10:55:34 AM UTC-5, Matt Grooms wrote:
<snarky humor comments -- NSFW>
PICTUREx1 = WORDx1000
Ummm.... even on with an arduino & 8bits; 8 x 1000 exceeds the definition of 10bitworks.
But, not going to attempt a DIY port to the NSFW link below just to get things to fit in a 10bitworks word. ;)
NSFW -> http://people.csail.mit.edu/wjun/papers/sigtbd16.pdf <- NSFW
</snarky humor comments>
But, not going to attempt a DIY port to the NSFW link below just to get things to fit in a 10bitworks word. ;)
NSFW -> http://people.csail.mit.edu/wjun/papers/sigtbd16.pdf <- NSFW
</snarky humor comments>
Craig
Oct 16, 2016, 5:37:33 PM10/16/16
to 10BitWorks
Note: For a normal box bottom, the board/t-square used for reference in the picture should be completely flat against the box bottom.
Gaps are at edges.
Craig
Gaps are at edges.
Craig
Matt Grooms
Oct 17, 2016, 12:35:36 AM10/17/16
to 10BitWorks on behalf of Craig
Thanks for the pictures Craig. Does the device work correctly with the bowed base? IE, are we talking about a user convenience issue, or defective output?
If the product produced by the device is correct and the wobbly base is just a user annoyance, why don’t you go low tech. Place it in a sandbox.
Matt
From: Craig via 10BitWorks [mailto:sa-hackerspace+APn2wQfVho8FuSVRT...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 4:36 PM
To: 10BitWorks <sa-hack...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [10BitWorks] Maker space challenge : Design/Cut a fix to alter/straighten out a bowed surface.
Ok,
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sa-hackerspace/83b21eca-feee-4917-9efd-df277a02e3a4%40googlegroups.com.
Craig
Oct 17, 2016, 5:27:52 AM10/17/16
to 10BitWorks
On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 11:35:36 PM UTC-5, Matt Grooms wrote:
Thanks for the pictures Craig. Does the device work correctly with the bowed base?
Ummm... short answer: no, safety issues
IE, are we talking about a user convenience issue, or defective output?
Ummm... I guess a short usage case example would help.
The box is used in flyball.
Flyball synopsis: Flyball is a 4 dog relay, where each dog, one by one, is sent down a lane to go over 4 jumps, trigger a box to eject a ball which each dog then
brings back (at which point the next dog is released). A person, known as the box loader, stands behind/on the box and loads the ball for each dog.
The flyball run is timed & done while competing against a team running in an other near by lane.
The above description is being kept overly simplistic for the sake of brevity.
So, the wobbly box in the flyball running lane presents several issues.
a) For dogs that run "slow", a box loader can carefully stand a particular way on the box, such that the wobble doesn't matter.
Obviously, when time is a factor in a competition, speed becomes an issue.
So, simplistically, adding one more thing to thing to do in a frenzy of things to remember to do while competing is not realistic.
b) Curved box bottom means less contact with mat. Less contact with mat, means the box slides more readily when dog makes contact with the flyball box. <-- not good
e.g. hazardous to human standing on box; need to readjust a 60 lb box before next dog arrives ( 1 - 2 seconds) in addition to reloading the box with a ball for the inbound dog;
hazardous to dog making contact with flyball box.
Note: Even with a flat box bottom, the box loader still has to brace themselves for the dog that hits the box.
c) Faster dogs means setting the ball release trigger to be more sensitive. A more sensitive trigger can be set off by box loader just standing on wobbly box. <-- not good
e.g. makes competing team happy!
The box is used in flyball.
Flyball synopsis: Flyball is a 4 dog relay, where each dog, one by one, is sent down a lane to go over 4 jumps, trigger a box to eject a ball which each dog then
brings back (at which point the next dog is released). A person, known as the box loader, stands behind/on the box and loads the ball for each dog.
The flyball run is timed & done while competing against a team running in an other near by lane.
The above description is being kept overly simplistic for the sake of brevity.
So, the wobbly box in the flyball running lane presents several issues.
a) For dogs that run "slow", a box loader can carefully stand a particular way on the box, such that the wobble doesn't matter.
Obviously, when time is a factor in a competition, speed becomes an issue.
So, simplistically, adding one more thing to thing to do in a frenzy of things to remember to do while competing is not realistic.
b) Curved box bottom means less contact with mat. Less contact with mat, means the box slides more readily when dog makes contact with the flyball box. <-- not good
e.g. hazardous to human standing on box; need to readjust a 60 lb box before next dog arrives ( 1 - 2 seconds) in addition to reloading the box with a ball for the inbound dog;
hazardous to dog making contact with flyball box.
Note: Even with a flat box bottom, the box loader still has to brace themselves for the dog that hits the box.
c) Faster dogs means setting the ball release trigger to be more sensitive. A more sensitive trigger can be set off by box loader just standing on wobbly box. <-- not good
e.g. makes competing team happy!
If the product produced by the device is correct and the wobbly base is just a user annoyance, why don’t you go low tech. Place it in a sandbox.
short answer: On an indoor mat, not possible -- see usage case.
Side note about dog speed:
The flyball lanes are 51 feet in length. So, the timed running distance is ~102ft for each dog. Note: time starts for next dog, when last dog crosses start line
Slow dog run times are in the range of 5-6 seconds. This is approx. 2.5 times as fast as Usane Bolt's fastest times. Note: This is with a 180 degree change of direction for the dog!
Fast times are in the 3.4 - 3.6 second range. Still thing a human has a chance to beat the dog to the fence?
Craig
Side note about dog speed:
The flyball lanes are 51 feet in length. So, the timed running distance is ~102ft for each dog. Note: time starts for next dog, when last dog crosses start line
Slow dog run times are in the range of 5-6 seconds. This is approx. 2.5 times as fast as Usane Bolt's fastest times. Note: This is with a 180 degree change of direction for the dog!
Fast times are in the 3.4 - 3.6 second range. Still thing a human has a chance to beat the dog to the fence?
Craig
Craig
Oct 17, 2016, 4:38:05 PM10/17/16
to 10BitWorks
On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 4:27:52 AM UTC-5, Craig wrote:
...
a) For dogs that run "slow", a box loader can carefully stand a particular way on the box, such that the wobble doesn't matter.
Obviously, when time is a factor in a competition, speed becomes an issue.
So, simplistically, adding one more thing to thing to do in a frenzy of things to remember to do while competing is not realistic.
...
Humor clarification to part a)
http://cdn3.volusion.com/rlhec.lnsfm/v/vspfiles/photos/flyballboxloaderjob-2T.jpg
Craig
Humor clarification to part a)
http://cdn3.volusion.com/rlhec.lnsfm/v/vspfiles/photos/flyballboxloaderjob-2T.jpg
Craig
Craig
Oct 17, 2016, 11:12:13 PM10/17/16
to 10BitWorks
On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 11:35:36 PM UTC-5, Matt Grooms wrote:
Thanks for the pictures Craig. Does the device work correctly with the bowed base? IE, are we talking about a user convenience issue, or defective output?
If the product produced by the device is correct and the wobbly base is just a user annoyance, why don’t you go low tech. Place it in a sandbox.
Ummm... as in something like the sand box used in the metal pouring process?
Given the 4sq ft surface area, obviously would need to be something other than metal if done at 10bitworks.
I guess one could do a negative cast of the base in order to create a positive cast from negative case.
One could then do one more negative cast with a build up a level footing from the first positive cast image.
The final cast would be a level base on one side & snuggly fits the original base on the other.
Thanks Matt!
Craig
Given the 4sq ft surface area, obviously would need to be something other than metal if done at 10bitworks.
I guess one could do a negative cast of the base in order to create a positive cast from negative case.
One could then do one more negative cast with a build up a level footing from the first positive cast image.
The final cast would be a level base on one side & snuggly fits the original base on the other.
Thanks Matt!
Craig
Matt Grooms
Oct 18, 2016, 12:23:18 AM10/18/16
to 10BitWorks on behalf of Craig
Ummm… no. Literally “place it in a box of sand”.
Build a box 4” wider than the existing base, 2-4” inches deep, and fill it almost full of sand. Set the flyball contraption in the box of sand an rock it gently until it is level. Play flyball; adjust as needed.
It’s a low cost, low tech solution to get some extra life out of an otherwise worn out flyball contraption. If you’re going to throw a bunch of money at the problem, just build a new flyball contraption out of heavier materials.
From: Craig via 10BitWorks [mailto:sa-hackerspace+APn2wQfVho8FuSVRT...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 10:12 PM
To: 10BitWorks <sa-hack...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [10BitWorks] Maker space challenge : Design/Cut a fix to alter/straighten out a bowed surface.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sa-hackerspace/9d289307-3b91-40f8-a7e3-7352293ab521%40googlegroups.com.
Craig
Oct 18, 2016, 4:31:07 AM10/18/16
to 10BitWorks
On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 11:23:18 PM UTC-5, Matt Grooms wrote:
Ummm… no. Literally “place it in a box of sand”.
Build a box 4” wider than the existing base, 2-4” inches deep, and fill it almost full of sand. Set the flyball contraption in the box of sand an rock it gently until it is level. Play flyball; adjust as needed.
No, as the physics doesn't work (even if magnetic iron filings are swapped out for the sand):
a) If a solid floor is used to prevent the box from sliding, a non-solid surface such s sand is going to be even worse.
The box would get pushed out of the sand box every time a dog hits the box.
Adjusting just the 60lb box takes a few seconds more than the time it takes next dog coming down the lane to reach the box.
Adding an additional object to adjust such as the sandbox isn't practical/realistic even in a practice situation.
b) Teams move in and out of the flyball ring about every 5 minutes. ~10-15 seconds is about max for moving just the box into/out of the lanes along with getting the box setup to go.
a) If a solid floor is used to prevent the box from sliding, a non-solid surface such s sand is going to be even worse.
The box would get pushed out of the sand box every time a dog hits the box.
Adjusting just the 60lb box takes a few seconds more than the time it takes next dog coming down the lane to reach the box.
Adding an additional object to adjust such as the sandbox isn't practical/realistic even in a practice situation.
b) Teams move in and out of the flyball ring about every 5 minutes. ~10-15 seconds is about max for moving just the box into/out of the lanes along with getting the box setup to go.
It’s a low cost, low tech solution to get some extra life out of an otherwise worn out flyball contraption.
If you’re going to throw a bunch of money at the problem, just build a new flyball contraption out of heavier materials.
60lbs is the practical limit on what can easily/safely be moved in & out of the flyball lanes in ~10-15 seconds.
(Maximum practical weight limit for a 13-14 year old.)
Alternatively, guess I could check to see if the box could be taken apart.
The jointer could be used to flatten ends. So, just a new flat bottom piece would be needed.
.... but the mold thing and/or magnetic sand sounds so much more maker-ish ...
Craig
(Maximum practical weight limit for a 13-14 year old.)
Alternatively, guess I could check to see if the box could be taken apart.
The jointer could be used to flatten ends. So, just a new flat bottom piece would be needed.
.... but the mold thing and/or magnetic sand sounds so much more maker-ish ...
Craig
john vanhoozer
Oct 20, 2016, 11:48:44 AM10/20/16
to 10BitWorks
Craig,
I looked at both some videos of flyball, including a short documentary, looks like fun. And I did go look at these launchers, which it seems can go for anywhere from $50 to $900! I can understand why you'd want this to work since it's definitely not a $50 launcher.
* Side note to makers => dang these things can be really over engineered! Take a look at Premier Launcher Construction.
* Side note to makers => dang these things can be really over engineered! Take a look at Premier Launcher Construction.
Just a couple of questions... (and thanks for the pictures).
Your launcher looks to be similar to those produced by the folks in the link above. I take it that there is a base (red arrow) re-inforced by the tubes (blue) and then a skid plate (yellow) is attached to the bottom. Is that correct?
Next question assuming that the answer to the last question is "yes/true", is the base bent or is the skid plate bowed? Given the problem presented in the pictures, I'm guessing that after a lot of use, the launcher now has a pronounced front to back wobble. Those dogs hit the thing pretty hard.
Next question assuming that the answer to the last question is "yes/true", is the base bent or is the skid plate bowed? Given the problem presented in the pictures, I'm guessing that after a lot of use, the launcher now has a pronounced front to back wobble. Those dogs hit the thing pretty hard.
Here's the device on that web site:
Has that entire back end "rolled" up from the impacts and introduced the warp? Sort of puckering it from front to back?
On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 4:35:36 PM UTC-5, Craig wrote:
Craig
Oct 20, 2016, 2:25:07 PM10/20/16
to 10BitWorks
On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 10:48:44 AM UTC-5, john vanhoozer wrote:
Craig,I looked at both some videos of flyball, including a short documentary, looks like fun.
Very much so; but like all things that look like fun, takes quite a bit of effort to get to the "looks easy" part.
And I did go look at these launchers, which it seems can go for anywhere from $50 to $900!
I can understand why you'd want this to work since it's definitely not a $50 launcher.
In the flyball world, launcher is what sends the ball in the air.
For competition, yeah, the competition specific boxes range in $400 - $800 range (before shipping costs).
The materials used pretty much determines the price (e.g. metal / sintra / wood ; how many holes there are -- 2, 4, 6, where each hole has a ball launcher;
and various addons/upgrades/customizations/preferences).
For competition, yeah, the competition specific boxes range in $400 - $800 range (before shipping costs).
The materials used pretty much determines the price (e.g. metal / sintra / wood ; how many holes there are -- 2, 4, 6, where each hole has a ball launcher;
and various addons/upgrades/customizations/preferences).
* Side note to makers => dang these things can be really over engineered! Take a look at Premier Launcher Construction.
Yes/no -- gotta reliablly throw ball at least 2 ft all day -- where at a tournament, a teams box takes about 800-1000 hits of 30-60lb dogs going between 8 - 10m/s over the course of a day.
For back yard use, yeah, way over engineered; but not trying to beat the team in the other lane at home either.
For back yard use, yeah, way over engineered; but not trying to beat the team in the other lane at home either.
Just a couple of questions... (and thanks for the pictures).
Your launcher looks to be similar to those produced by the folks in the link above.
It is, with additional modifications/customizations.
I take it that there is a base (red arrow) re-inforced by the tubes (blue) and then a skid plate (yellow) is attached to the bottom. Is that correct?
The tube indicated by the blue arrow (of which there are two) is used for lifting/transporting the box via a dolly with appropriately spaced prongs.
The tubes indicated by the blue arrow are not used / relevant to box structure outside of the tube being used to be able to transport the box.
The base (red arrow) and support structure the base is attached to is what has warped.
The skid plate (yellow) is an office chair rug protector -- frequently replaced as wears out fast. It's just glued to the base (red arrow).
The tubes indicated by the blue arrow are not used / relevant to box structure outside of the tube being used to be able to transport the box.
The base (red arrow) and support structure the base is attached to is what has warped.
The skid plate (yellow) is an office chair rug protector -- frequently replaced as wears out fast. It's just glued to the base (red arrow).
Next question assuming that the answer to the last question is "yes/true", is the base bent or is the skid plate bowed?
The base & support structure the base is attached to is what is warped. The skid plate (office rug protector) protects base and provides traction/grip
to keep box from moving.
to keep box from moving.
Given the problem presented in the pictures, I'm guessing that after a lot of use, the launcher now has a pronounced front to back wobble.
Yes. This particular box is ~10 years old. Based on the product
manufacture's intended usage / maintenance schedule, the box has
received
about x3 times more useage that was designed for.
about x3 times more useage that was designed for.
Those dogs hit the thing pretty hard.
Yes.
Here's the device on that web site:
Has that entire back end "rolled" up from the impacts and introduced the warp?
Both the front the the back end has "rolled" up.
The only odd thing is in the several decades this box has been in production; this is the first instance of the back end issues occuring.
The front end curling up/warping is more common.
Note: Box in question has been used at a much higher frequency that what the box was designed for, so the warpped bottom isn't really a surprise.
The only odd thing is in the several decades this box has been in production; this is the first instance of the back end issues occuring.
The front end curling up/warping is more common.
Note: Box in question has been used at a much higher frequency that what the box was designed for, so the warpped bottom isn't really a surprise.
Sort of puckering it from front to back?
Yup. The box rocks front/back like a rocking chair. -- since the skit plate has less contact with mat, box slides quite a bit when dogs hit the box.
Craig
Craig
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