Re: Next steps?

[Pat Tressel]

On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Pat Tressel <ptre...@uw.edu> wrote:

Anyone want to talk about following up on this?  Is anyone at the Maker Faire today?

I didn't hear where / when anything was happening yesterday, so stayed at RHoK.  We're all heading over to the Maker Faire this afternoon, since we'll be reporting our work there -- should get there ~3:30pm.  Don't know yet exactly where we'll will be.

We heard from Willow that the Maker Faire is already winding down, so it looks like we may just stay at Jigsaw.

-- Pat

[dweiseth]

Not that far for me will swing by at 3:30

[dweiseth]

Also curious about robots next plans, where to go from here?

[dweiseth]

The schedule is wide open, no artificial deadlines, except next year, but hard to beat first :-) ... Couple other projects are germinating, need to consider all the options with limited time and resources, open to ideas, I think Jerry and Lawrence are collaborating on a walking robot for entry in a shooting game, but not autonomous so, personally not as appealing to me.

[Paul Danset]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my own goals are to see the robot through first stage completion -- the ability to navigate and complete a similar RoboMagellan course.  In fact, we can recreate the course at Seattle Center on our own now that we have the coordinates.

I also would like to create a simpler cheaper robot based on the lessons learned.  Jason almost single handedly built the robot and wrote its Arduino firmware.  A heroic effort.  But it's quite a costly robot that I can't afford.   I want a cheap robot I can tinker with at home any time I want -- Android phone + arduino + a servo or two + a bumper switch.  I only had access to the AWESOMEO just a few hours during last month.

I also want to polish up my Cyclops app to be more robust and featureful.  I have bigger plans for this app.  :)

On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Robo-Magellan Project on behalf of dweiseth <robo-magel...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Also curious about robots next plans, where to go from here?

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[Budi Mulyo]

At the Maker Faire and the Robothon event. Shubham and I found that many robots could benefit from the Artificial Intelligence algorithm that we develop.

Let's use the coordinates that Paul uploaded to actually complete the robot. After that, let's brainstorm and collaborate with other organizations. Perhaps we could start our own robotics competition at INScape.

 

Jigsaw Renaissance is a learning and making community, a collaborative community dedicated to collective education and creation. Our mission is to create an environment in which success, failure, and most of all discovery are celebrated. Our vision is that this environment will foster an enduring sense of wonder and a drive to effect change in ourselves, our communities, and the world.

For more information about JR (www.jigsawrenaissance.org), please visit our wiki page at wiki.jigren.org/Starting_Classes or this page.
Contact us, so we can chat about scheduling something cool together.
Thanks! 

Best wishes,,

--

Budi Mulyo

206.571.8430

[Pat Tressel]

Budi --

At the Maker Faire and the Robothon event. Shubham and I found that many robots could benefit from the Artificial Intelligence algorithm that we develop.

Let's use the coordinates that Paul uploaded to actually complete the robot. After that, let's brainstorm and collaborate with other organizations.

Right!  I was wondering if the others would like to continue their work at Jigsaw.  Also wondering if you might have gotten contact info for the other participants, or if the Robothon organizers would be willing to send out a message for us.
 

Perhaps we could start our own robotics competition at INScape.

Or collaborate more closely with SRS?

-- Pat

[Budi Mulyo]

Xandan reaching out to us and asking for a re-match in 3 month. What say you?

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[Jason Garland]

Sure

On Monday, June 4, 2012 8:55:33 AM UTC-7, Budi Mulyo wrote:

Xandan reaching out to us and asking for a re-match in 3 month. What say you?

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Robo-Magellan Project on behalf of Pat Tressel <robo-magellan-project@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Budi --

At the Maker Faire and the Robothon event. Shubham and I found that many robots could benefit from the Artificial Intelligence algorithm that we develop.

Let's use the coordinates that Paul uploaded to actually complete the robot. After that, let's brainstorm and collaborate with other organizations.

Right!  I was wondering if the others would like to continue their work at Jigsaw.  Also wondering if you might have gotten contact info for the other participants, or if the Robothon organizers would be willing to send out a message for us.
 

Perhaps we could start our own robotics competition at INScape.

Or collaborate more closely with SRS?

-- Pat

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[Paul Danset]

As I've mentioned before, there is a RoboMagellan contest in Chicago in August:

http://www.chibots.org/?q=node/1799

P.S.  Free online mobile dev seminars from the AT&T Hackathon folks starts Monday:

http://bootstrapweek.com/

P.P.S.  Robot cars ... to deliver pizza?

https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227676/Elgan_Robots_will_soon_deliver_pizza_

Sure

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[Budi Mulyo]

The cheapest plane ticket to Chicago that I could find is about $400. Should we do fund raising to send one of our team member there? I have the screen printing kit that we can use to print T-Shirt and other stuff. We can also use Kickstarter or IndieGogo to fund raise.

I don't think I will attend the Bootstrap week though. I don't think I'll be programming pretty soon. Shubham and Jon would benefit more. Paul, are you going?

Wednesday we have Dorkbot, but Jigsaw will be open also for anyone who would like to work on the A.W.E.S.O.M.E.-O 4000/ the Turring machine. (Could we have the robot at Jigsaw also that day).

This Thursday we have 2 options:

- get trained by WIKISPEED staff on CNC router and other tools so we can use their facility 24/7

- Showcasing our robot to Pioneer Square Art Walkers who are going to drop by at INScape 

LONG TERM DREAM PROJECT:

At the Maker Faire, I also spoke with Monty K Reed, the founder of They Shall Walk. He's so excited to partner with us to build something AWESOME together. I'm not talking about Iron Man delivering Pizza, but giving paralyzed persons hope of walking just by thinking it or using other bodily cues. 

Joshua, Madara, one of Jigsaw Renaissance member use Emotiv EPOC to control his robot. By adding A.I. to the exoskeleton, we could provide freedom to the immobilized patients.

[Paul Danset]

Yeah, Chicago is a bit far; I was hoping for something closer like the west coast.  I can travel cheaply though. :)

BTW here is a nice list of robot competitions:

http://robots.net/rcfaq.html

We need to up our game though ...

P.S.  I'm planning on watching a few of the Bootstrap Week online seminars.

[Pat Tressel]

Budi --

LONG TERM DREAM PROJECT:

At the Maker Faire, I also spoke with Monty K Reed, the founder of They Shall Walk. He's so excited to partner with us to build something AWESOME together. I'm not talking about Iron Man delivering Pizza, but giving paralyzed persons hope of walking just by thinking it or using other bodily cues. 

You and about a zillion other folks...  My father had ALS.  He was diagnosed when I was in grad school at UW CSE.  I pitched the idea of a brain-computer interface for helping locked-in patients communicate or control equipment.  The initial goal was controlling a GUI via simplified mouse commands, and an editor via binary search on the alphabet (a la Wivik, which is what Stephen Hawking uses) or via progressive lookup in a dictionary (a la Dasher).

At that time, there was only one person doing this sort of work, a German physician (whose name I'm forgetting ATM) who taught two of his ALS patients to control their slow cortical potentials ("brain waves") to select letters in a binary search.  It took minutes to select one letter, partly because it's hard to control slow cortical potentials reliably.  But, it worked.  One of the  patients had been unable to communicate for *two years*, and the first thing he said after learning the system was "thank you".

I thought, how about having people imagine motion instead?  This produces fairly large signals, and people do mental rehearsal of movement all the time, so it's natural.

The BCI pitch got picked up by Raj Rao at the UW.  I did not, unfortunately, get to work on the project.  It did not move quickly enough to be of any use to my dad.
 

Joshua, Madara, one of Jigsaw Renaissance member use Emotiv EPOC to control his robot. By adding A.I. to the exoskeleton, we could provide freedom to the immobilized patients.

Don't hit me but...  We should be careful about broad statements like "adding AI".  First, AI is a rather discredited term, due to past boasting and failure to deliver -- early AI was search-based and did not scale beyond trivial "toy" problems.  Second, in this case, it's "machine learning".  Third, everyone does this already, so just adding machine learning is nothing special.  There are already projects using BCI to control devices.  It would be better to say what we'd do that is different from what others are doing -- what specific form(s) of classifier we intend to use, and what novel process will be used to train / customize it.  Yet better, if the goal is to help real patients, and not just have fun hacking, we should build on what others have done.

Personally, I think the opportunities may not be so much in the classifier itself, as there's already been a lot of work there, but in patient training procedures, the design of the BCI headset, and how we could get a practical device out the door at a cost that insurance companies wouldn't balk at.

The most common "hairnet" style headset is grossly uncomfortable -- these generally are very tight to have the electrodes make good contact, and have an even tighter elastic cord around the edge, that really digs in.  One wouldn't want to keep the thing on for more than maybe half an hour.  Also, there isn't a reliable way to get it positioned the same way each time it's put on.  There's another type of "hairnet" that is commonly used on children that seems much looser, but it's also very easy to displace.

I have a number of starts at designing a rigid headset that could be fitted to each patient, and which would, once fitted, only fit in one position.  To avoid the need to squeeze the electrodes down tightly, it could use active electrodes, conductive foam at the electrode tips.  If active electrodes aren't sufficient to use the electrodes dry, one could provide a way to apply conductive gel simply, e.g. via holes in each electrode.

Two major BCI software projects are OpenVIBE and BCI2000:

OpenVIBE
http://openvibe.inria.fr/
This is likely easier to use, as it's aimed somewhat lower than BCI2000 -- accommodates less expensive equipment.  It's also open source.

BCI2000
http://www.bci2000.org/BCI2000/Home.html
This is the more "serious" project, but it expects more real equipment -- at least a research-grade amplifier and at least 6 or maybe 9 electrodes.  Also not quite open source, because they don't want it used by quacks.  I met Gerwin Schalk at NIPS back when he first started the project.

I don't have my BCI references just now, but there was a recent news article showing a woman controlling an artificial arm via an implant rather than external EEG.  Implants avoid the distortion and attenuation of signals through the scull, but there is risk in installing them, and they only collect signals from the one small region where the little grid of electrodes is inserted.  EEG can collect signals from a much wider region, and no surgery is required, but it's less accurate and requires more work from the patient.

I talked this up a bit at Jigsaw waaaay back at the time of RHoK #2, but we worked on something else.  I've mentioned it several times since then, including once while we were working on Robothon, but didn't get a reaction.  ;-)

Just came across this article in which they detected motor signals reliably using only 6 electrodes, and no conductive gel:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0000637

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

At that time, there was only one person doing this sort of work, a German physician (whose name I'm forgetting ATM) who taught two of his ALS patients to control their slow cortical potentials ("brain waves") to select letters in a binary search.  It took minutes to select one letter, partly because it's hard to control slow cortical potentials reliably.  But, it worked.  One of the  patients had been unable to communicate for *two years*, and the first thing he said after learning the system was "thank you".

Niels Birbaumer:

http://www.sprweb.org/articles/birbaumer06.pdf

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

Paul --

P.S.  Free online mobile dev seminars from the AT&T Hackathon folks starts Monday:

http://bootstrapweek.com/

There's a section labeled "How it works" on that page, that looks like it should be a video.  But it's inactive in my browser.  Does it Work 4 U?  What player does it want?

Do you know (from the mystery "How it works" video or from attending yesterday) what conferencing system they're using?  It's sponsored by both Webex and GoToMeeting...  But if it's using whatever that dead video link is using, I'm out of luck.

Would like to attend the MongoDB session, as that's what the app we were reviving at RHoK was using as a back end.

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

Budi --

I don't think I will attend the Bootstrap week though. I don't think I'll be programming pretty soon.

That can be fixed!  When do you want to start?
 

Shubham and Jon would benefit more. Paul, are you going?

It's online and free.  I can't tell if they have a limit on attendees but I didn't see one.  I just signed up for the MongoDB session, so I'll find out if they send out details after one registers.
 

Wednesday we have Dorkbot, but Jigsaw will be open also for anyone who would like to work on the A.W.E.S.O.M.E.-O 4000/ the Turring machine. (Could we have the robot at Jigsaw also that day).

What time would be good to arrive?
 

This Thursday we have 2 options:

- get trained by WIKISPEED staff on CNC router and other tools so we can use their facility 24/7

- Showcasing our robot to Pioneer Square Art Walkers who are going to drop by at INScape 

FWIW, I'll be volunteering at a NetSquared meeting this Thursday.

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

Re. Bootstrapweek:

I just signed up for the MongoDB session, so I'll find out if they send out details after one registers.

Nope.  So that missing "How it works" info is likely critical to finding out how to attend sessions...

-- Pat

[Paul Danset]

The "How It Works" video on the front page does not seem to be implemented yet.  Here's the snippet:

<!-- Video -->

<div class="video">

    <a class="play" href="#"></a>

    <img src="css/images/video.jpg" alt="" />

</div>

<!-- end VIdeo -->

And I haven't found anyone referencing / modifying that div class, at least from browsing the code using Chrome's dev tools.

So long story short, I don't know what video tech they use for the actual seminars, since the ones I want to watch haven't started yet.  It it's GoToMeeting, I guess I'm out since I don't own any Windows boxes.  It would be great if they use some cross platform tool like Skype or better yet, Google Hangouts.

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[Pat Tressel]

Paul --

The "How It Works" video on the front page does not seem to be implemented yet.  Here's the snippet:

<!-- Video -->

<div class="video">

    <a class="play" href="#"></a>

    <img src="css/images/video.jpg" alt="" />

</div>

<!-- end VIdeo -->

Right -- saw that too.  I just sent a message to the address given for the organizers in the registration response they sent -- bootst...@gmail.com -- and quoted that div pointing out the # for href.  If I get instructions for joining the call, I'll post 'em here.

Odd thing is that this is the second day, so one presumes things worked yesterday and people did have info for joining the calls.
 

And I haven't found anyone referencing / modifying that div class, at least from browsing the code using Chrome's dev tools.

So long story short, I don't know what video tech they use for the actual seminars, since the ones I want to watch haven't started yet.

Unfortunately for me, the one I signed up for is the very first one today -- starts in 1.5 hours.
 

If it's GoToMeeting, I guess I'm out since I don't own any Windows boxes.  It would be great if they use some cross platform tool like Skype or better yet, Google Hangouts.

Right.

Cisco Webex is one of the sponsors, so maybe they'll use that.

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

Paul --

Right -- saw that too.  I just sent a message to the address given for the organizers in the registration response they sent -- bootst...@gmail.com -- and quoted that div pointing out the # for href.  If I get instructions for joining the call, I'll post 'em here.

Instructions were sent out 15 min before the call.  They apparently have a voice call, which may be long distance (was for the MongoDB session) and Webex.  But, as it turns out, the Webex session is limited to 25 people, whereas the Eventbrite form imposes no limit.  So by the time I got Webex installed (it wanted the very latest Java, JavaFX), the session was full.  Moral is, install / update Java beforehand.  Watch for a "Reminder" message in email, follow the Webex link, and get Webex set up asap.  Or tolerate audio only and an hour of long distance charges.  I don't know if there's a limit on the audio call.

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Pat Tressel <ptre...@myuw.net> wrote:

Paul --

bootstrapweek...

Instructions were sent out 15 min before the call.

That 15 min was apparently a side effect of when I signed up.  I just got a reminder for a later meeting, more than 15 min in advance.  Point is to try to join the Webex meeting as soon as it allows you in.  IIRC that's not very long, but it won't hurt to try early and see what it says.

-- Pat

[Paul Danset]

Thanks for letting me know Pat.  

I used to use Webex nearly daily at my previous job;  I never really liked the clunky UI and voice quality.  "Who just joined?"   "Who's typing right next to the mic?"  "Whoever is using the cellphone in traffic, please stop."   It's like those commercials from competitors mocking how bad teleconferences can get.  :)    I think I'll skip these sessions.

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[Pat Tressel]

Paul --

I used to use Webex nearly daily at my previous job;  I never really liked the clunky UI and voice quality.  "Who just joined?"   "Who's typing right next to the mic?"  "Whoever is using the cellphone in traffic, please stop."   It's like those commercials from competitors mocking how bad teleconferences can get.  :)  

Hee hee.  "Is that a cat?"  "Aww, something just messed up my headset driver."  This is an actual quote from a friend, on IRC during a call: "well that was fun...crashed the system and destroyed my windows VM".

One thing it doesn't do, but could, is attempt to normalize volume.  One loud person speaks, and I have to rip my headphones off.  Another:  "I can't hear Michael."  "Michael, I have the volume all the way up and I still can't hear you."  "Michael, could you move closer to your mic?"  Then the loud person chimes in again, and yow!
 

 I think I'll skip these sessions.

I may be forced to skip them, if I can't get in.  Already failed to get in to the one I was mainly interested in...

Gotta admit, Skype's sound quality is better.

-- Pat

[Paul Danset]

Some funny moments from actual teleconfs:

<a heavy set person didn't realize he was breathing very heavily into the mic>

"Umm ... <name withheld> ... do you make late night calls to strangers?"  :)

"Uh  ... will the person eating chips or doritos ... please mute."

"OK whoever is dialing from home, please control your puppy."

<bleep> <bleepity> <bleep>   "has joined the conference."

My former boss was on an important teleconf once with a female senior exec; it was supposed to be private, .  But one of his trusted colleagues walked in and farted.  Awkward silence ensued.  My boss had no choice but to let the senior exec think he let one rip.

I decided to give it a go with the PhoneGap webinar coming up next hour.  We'll see how it goes ...

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[Paul Danset]

Well ... Webex seems to be insisting I install Java7.  I have Java6 installed, which is the current recommended/supported version for Android development.  I guess I will have to punt.

[Pat Tressel]

Paul --

I decided to give it a go with the PhoneGap webinar coming up next hour.  We'll see how it goes ...

It's definitely an interesting project, still in the early stages.  Code is all HTML / CSS / JS, with "plugins" to access system services that are normally off limits to a browser.  The front end is rendered by the phone's chromeless browser, e.g. WebKit for Android and several others, IE9 for Windows Phone (but they said it's very standards compliant now).  Build tools aren't provided, but they're working on a platform for online development a similar hosting model as Github -- public projects are free.  Also working on command line build tools.  They invite contributors to join in, especially to write more plugins.  See phonegap.com and cordova.io.

Well ... Webex seems to be insisting I install Java7.  I have Java6 installed, which is the current recommended/supported version for Android development.  I guess I will have to punt.

Should be ok to let it do that.  It installed 7 in a new jre7 directory, and left jre6 alone.  You can have multiple jres or jdks in Eclipse:  Window -> Preferences -> Java -> Installed JREs.  Also under ... -> Java -> Compiler you can set the compiler compliance level to (I think) have it disallow features above that level.  That can be set individually per project too, at Project -> Properties -> Java Compiler.  I just noticed that somehow my ArduinoComm project got set to 1.5 compliance level.  Huh, don't remember changing that.

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

I decided to give it a go with the PhoneGap webinar coming up next hour.  We'll see how it goes ...

Looks like they recorded the session and will be sending out a link.

-- Pat

[Paul Danset]

Thanks Pat.

I played with PhoneGap very briefly a year or two ago, but at that time it was very brittle.  I think it's improved a lot since then so I'm looking forward to playing with it again (as well as other HTML5 stuff like jQuery Mobile).  I've heard good things about its sister project Cordova.

Didn't know Eclipse can support multiple versions of Java at the same time.  Might give it a try ... though I dread breaking my current setup.  The sessions are recorded anyway, so I might just watch the video.

Cheers

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[Pat Tressel]

Paul --

I played with PhoneGap very briefly a year or two ago, but at that time it was very brittle.  I think it's improved a lot since then so I'm looking forward to playing with it again (as well as other HTML5 stuff like jQuery Mobile).  I've heard good things about its sister project Cordova.

They implied the two are identical, at least as far as the base code.  There may be some plugins that are only under the PhoneGap label.  They described PhoneGap as a like a Linux distribution.

They also said you can use any Web tools and libraries you want -- it's being rendered by a real browser.

-- Pat

[Pat Tressel]

Budi, et al. --

Wednesday we have Dorkbot, but Jigsaw will be open also for anyone who would like to work on the A.W.E.S.O.M.E.-O 4000/ the Turring machine. (Could we have the robot at Jigsaw also that day).

Is anyone meeting tonight?  What time?  Dorkbot is 7-10pm.  Do they normally use the open area?  If so, maybe we could work in a corner of the other room?

-- Pat

[Budi Mulyo]

I'll be hosting the Dorkbot, and they will be using the classroom. I asked Roy to get the robot at Shubham's place, so everyone could work on it in the other room if they wish too.

Best wishes,,

--

Budi Mulyo

206.571.8430

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[Paul Danset]

Sorry guys and gals I'll pass tonight.  I'd have to take the bus, which would be 3 hours total round trip to Jigsaw.  We need a Jigsaw East. :)

[Pat Tressel]

Sorry guys and gals I'll pass tonight.  I'd have to take the bus, which would be 3 hours total round trip to Jigsaw.  We need a Jigsaw East. :)

And / or a Jigsaw North.  ;-)

[Budi Mulyo]

South and West as well :-P

 

Jigsaw Renaissance is a learning and making community, a collaborative community dedicated to collective education and creation. Our mission is to create an environment in which success, failure, and most of all discovery are celebrated. Our vision is that this environment will foster an enduring sense of wonder and a drive to effect change in ourselves, our communities, and the world.

For more information about JR (www.jigsawrenaissance.org), please visit our wiki page at wiki.jigren.org/Starting_Classes or this page.
Contact us, so we can chat about scheduling something cool together.
Thanks! 

Best wishes,,

--

Budi Mulyo

206.571.8430

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Robo-Magellan Project on behalf of Pat Tressel <robo-magel...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sorry guys and gals I'll pass tonight.  I'd have to take the bus, which would be 3 hours total round trip to Jigsaw.  We need a Jigsaw East. :)

And / or a Jigsaw North.  ;-)

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[Jason Garland]

I have a big project for work that I need to get done.

[Pat Tressel]

I have a big project for work that I need to get done.

Should we find another night?

Paul, is there some night when you're usually over on the Seattle side?

-- Pat

[Budi Mulyo]

Hi Folks,

how's your rest? Ready for another round of fun?

let's meetup this Wednesday at 7pm. Tyler and Xandan Frogget will also be there. We will be planning our informal match in 3 months.

Best wishes,,

--

Budi Mulyo

206.571.8430

 

Jigsaw Renaissance is a learning and making community, a collaborative community dedicated to collective education and creation.

For more information about JR 

(www.jigsawrenaissance.org), please visit our wiki page at wiki.jigren.org/Starting_Classes or this page.

Contact us, so we can chat about scheduling something cool together.
Thanks! 

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