Confusion over Alchemist Familiar Abilities

[delthi1729]

Hey guys,

Since James McTeague has shown me how awesome familiars can be (and I've experienced it myself on my wizard), I've decided to grab a lovely Tumor Familiar on my alchemist. I'm slightly confused as to what abilities my tumor-lizard does or does not have, however.

With the "Share Spells" ability, I assume I can shove an extract down my familiar's throat and have it gain the benefit? Or do I need the Infusion discovery for this? Same question with "Share Touch Spells"-- can I share it a Displacement, then ask it nicely to deliver the Displacement to me at the beginning of combat? Or does that, again, need Infusion?

Additionally, I know with normal "Share Spells" the shared spell will fizzle if you try to cast another spell. How the heck does that work with extracts? Would it fizzle if I drank another extract before getting dosed with the Share Spell'd one? What about drinking a mutagen?

Also, as far as I understand it Communal alchemist extracts exist in an odd state where if you do have Infusion, you need to touch everyone who's set to receive the benefit. Does that mean that I could Share Spells a Communal extract to my familiar, and have it poke me?

Additionally, the verbiage states: "An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells." Does this mean that my familiar can drink my Mutagen instead of me (if for some reason I wanted to do this)? Or does it mean that my familiar can deliver my Mutagen to me, like "Share Spells"?

Also, general familiar question, since I never did anything with my "normal" familiar on my wizard: if I give it the substitute familiar feat Extra Item Slot (Hands), can it wear gloves on its little claws? I think that it can't wield wands in PFS even if it has that feat unless it's on a very specific list of Improved familiars?

Thanks in advance!

[Jeffrey Fox]

With share spells the alchemist drinks the extract/ mutagen and it effects the familiar.

With deliver touch spells the alchemist drinks the extract/ mutagen while the familiar is touching him and the familiar can go deliver it.

The familiar can not transfer spells to the master. The transfers only goes master to familiar.

[Jeffrey Fox]

Blah, I forgot to mention he has to touch the familiar with share spells. But since it counts as a touch spell the touching would be a free action.

[Bobby Speck]

Hmm, thank you for the reply Jeff, still confused on a couple points though.

As I understand it, normally with a touch spell the alchemist still needs Infusion to deliver extracts. E.g., he goes "time to make our armor-covered cleric invisible!", quaffs an Invisibility extract, then look sad as he turns invisible himself instead.

With Deliver Spells, are you saying he quaffs Invisibility, pokes his familiar, and the familiar can go poke the cleric, no Infusion required?

Also, why is the alchemist not a legal target for the familiar's touch spell delivery? Or is that a basic Deliver Touch Spells thing I'm missing?

Thanks,

Bobby

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[Jeffrey Fox]

No infusion needed for delivering touch spells with the tumor. The tumor discovery allows you to treat the extracts/mutagen like spells for the purpose of familiar abilities.

And yes the familiar can deliver a master's touch spell to its master using deliver touch spells.

I was saying that a familiar can't transfer his own spells or spell like abilities to the master using share spells or deliver touch spell.

[Bobby Speck]

Radical. Familiars rule.

So while my little buddy is waiting patiently to poke me with the Displacement he chugged, does it "fizzle" if I drink an extract of Shield or whatever first?

Also any ideas re: magic iteme on non-Improved Familiars with the Extra Item Slot substitution?

Appreciate the help!

No infusion needed for delivering touch spells with the tumor. The tumor discovery allows you to treat the extracts/mutagen like spells for the purpose of familiar abilities.

 And yes the familiar can deliver a master's touch spell to its master using deliver touch spells.

I was saying that a familiar can't transfer his own spells or spell like abilities to the master using share spells or deliver touch spell.

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[Jeffrey Fox]

Well he can't chug a displacement extract and share it with you.

You can drink displacement transfer it to him with deliver touch spells and then drink your shield extract while he holds the charge. But it won't save you on action economy.

[Bobby Speck]

Hmm, back to being confused then. I was under the impression that the familiar "holds" the charge for Deliver Touch Spells until they have a chance to deliver it, but that if you try to cast a spell in the meantime the familiar loses the "held" spell. Are you saying they have to deliver it the same round that you cast it? So it's basically just for like, "I can't fly for some reason but my familiar can, I'd like him to fly over to turn my buddy surrounded by ghouls invisible"?

On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Jeffrey Fox <jfo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well he can't chug a displacement extract and share it with you.

You can drink displacement transfer it to him with deliver touch spells and then drink your shield extract while he holds the charge. But it won't save you on action economy.

[Jeffrey Fox]

Sorry looks like some of what I was typing got screwed up due to trying to use fat fingers in phone.

Right you do lose the spell held by the familiar when you cast a new one.

Let me wait till I get home and figure out how many things I messed up by using my phone and then repost something clearer.

[Bobby Speck]

Soo uh, any ideas, Jeff?

Also I have yet another familiar question, this time about Improved Familiars! Familiars are just a boundless ball of curiosities.

It states on the Improved Familiar feat that the familiar needs to be within a step of the master's alignment on either axis. Does that hold true for PFS? So, could I get a Chaotic Evil familiar on a Chaotic Neutral character (as long as I don't let it sup on the blood of innocents)?

What if the creature itself mentions being "able to serve as a familiar for Chaotic Evil spellcasters"-- is that just fluff, overridden by the general Improved Familiar rules, or does that force a CE alignment requirement?

[Jeffrey Fox]

Yeah sorry, things got a little distracting yesterday and I forgot to get back online.

Last question first, yes the 1 step rule is in effect for PFS. It should apply to all legal familiar options.

So I think we've cleared up that you can use share spells to use extracts/mutagens that target you on your familiar. But that the familiar can't use it's spell or spell like abilities on the master. So,I think where we left off was on how deliver touch spells work?

So deliver touch spells with an alchemist extract works like this. The alchemist drinks the extract [his version of casting it] while the Familiar is in contact with him. Now the familiar can deliver the charge as a free action to anyone it can reach since it's is the deliver of the touch. And the master doesn't need infusion to do this. So it can move and deliever the touch so that the master doesn't have to. It can also hold the charge, until it discharges it later or until the master cast a new spell. When the master in this case drinks a extract the charge the familiar is using would disipate.

What the familiar can't do is drink an infusion extract itself and use that on the master, because neither share spells or deliver touch spells allow the familiar to transfer effects that way. Though a familair who has a hand slot and the feat extra item slot (hands) could in theory use poisoner's gloves.

[Bobby Speck]

Alright, supercool, thanks man. So my little buddy can totally hang on to a Displacement for me, but if I try to enjoy a nice Polypurpose Panacea whilst he's holding onto the Displacement his stored spell will fizzle.

Now the question is, when are they going to update the Improved Familiars list to give the new ones printed that totally have hands a Hands Slot? I was looking at the Ratling for this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/ratling

But if I understand it, even though he explicitly has l'il hands and a special ability to use scrolls even, he can't use wands or wear gloves even with Extra Item Slot (Hands) until they update that FAQ?

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[Matt Morris]

Don't the specific alignment requirements of the familiars override the general requirements of the feat? (Ratlings only serve CE characters.)

Also, it is kind of ridiculous that the improved familiars that have hands can't use wands (not even this guy, who uses daggers http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/inevitable/inevitable-arbiter ). Hopefully they update the list.

[Bobby Speck]

Hmm, well that would be a good thing to know, because I'm currently hovering over my level-up feat as my alchemist has just hit 7. I don't really want a different Improved Familiar if I can't get the Ratling (I want him even without hands!), so the feat won't help so much if that's the case.

On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Matt Morris <mmor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Don't the specific alignment requirements of the familiars override the general requirements of the feat? (Ratlings only serve CE characters.)

Also, it is kind of ridiculous that the improved familiars that have hands can't use wands (not even this guy, who uses daggers http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/inevitable/inevitable-arbiter ). Hopefully they update the list.

--

[Jeffrey Fox]

Ratlings aren't legal from what I can tell.

[Bobby Speck]

I am filled with a great and terrible sadness.

[Redcap's Corner]

Mike Brock has said a number of times that if a familiar isn't on the Improved Familiar feat list, then it follows the rules in its write-up. For instance, "this creature can be called as a familiar by a chaotic evil spellcaster" literally means you have to be chaotic evil. Ratlings and shadow drakes, etc., aren't legal in PFS for this very reason: there are no legal characters that could use them. As for the wands issue, I think you'll find that's another area Mike Brock has no interest in revisiting. The few on that list appear to be intentionally limited. I don't think he wants familiar wand spam getting out of control. But really what's the point of a familiar if not to either give you +4 to your initiative OR wield wands for you? I've never seen one do anything else useful...

[Bobby Speck]

Well, the issue is that there's a number of cool familiars that so totally have hands it's actually ridiculous, that not only can't use wands but also as far as I understand it can't even wield the weapons the normal version of their kind has (in their Bestiary pictures, even), or make use of their hand slot for gloves or other items.

As Matt pointed out re: Inevitable Arbiters.

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Redcap's Corner <hobgobli...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mike Brock has said a number of times that if a familiar isn't on the Improved Familiar feat list, then it follows the rules in its write-up. For instance, "this creature can be called as a familiar by a chaotic evil spellcaster" literally means you have to be chaotic evil. Ratlings and shadow drakes, etc., aren't legal in PFS for this very reason: there are no legal characters that could use them. As for the wands issue, I think you'll find that's another area Mike Brock has no interest in revisiting. The few on that list appear to be intentionally limited. I don't think he wants familiar wand spam getting out of control. But really what's the point of a familiar if not to either give you +4 to your initiative OR wield wands for you? I've never seen one do anything else useful...

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[Redcap's Corner]

You'll get no argument from me. I'm quite transparently not a fan of all the stupid and unnecessary house rules in PFS that do nothing but complicate the format (see: any ruling having to do with animal companions or familiars). I'm just passing on the philosophy of the campaign leadership. Mike Brock does not sympathize with our plight.

--Benn.

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[Bobby Speck]

Well I was filled with mild hope because I did see a guy comment something about "the heck we gonna see the Improved Familiars list updated, this one from Bestiary 4 literally has UMD as a class skill" and a Pathfinder dev got back to him with "I'm actually in charge of the list, I'll get around to it soon-ish". This was like, two months ago I think.

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[Redcap's Corner]

Maybe my knowledge is outdated then. I'd certainly love to be wrong on this one. I have a character with a quasit, but there are a lot of cool familiars out there.

--Benn.