Ivory to Wood -- Which Glue?
davma...@onecom.com
is black walnut, with scrimshawed ivory inlays. (The ivory is antique,
harvested when it was legal. I got it from an old piano, which had
become worthless as a musical instrument.)
What kind of glue should I use to adhese the veneer-thin ivory to the
walnut? I have two concerns: I don't want to discolor the ivory -- I
want it to patinate naturally, not from the glue. But I want this piece
to be cherished for the rest of her life -- maybe another 80 to 90
years.
Anybody have any experience, or seen any articles?
Thanks -- I'll go back to lurking for now.
Dave Thompson
davma...@onecom.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rob Weaver
- I bought a 1947 Steinway 40" mahogany console paino for $176.25 at a
government auction) - that's very similar to what was originally used.
Do yourself a HUGE favor, and read the instructions on the tube prior to
use. Using Duco is NOT rocket science, but if you don't follow the
instructions, you won't get the best results.
And BTW, do NOT get any Duco on anything with a lacquer or varnish
finish. Trust me on this.
All the best,
Rob Weaver
oldwood
davma...@onecom.com wrote:
> I am about to finish making a pencil box for my future stepdaughter.
It
> is black walnut, with scrimshawed ivory inlays. (The ivory is antique,
> harvested when it was legal. I got it from an old piano, which had
> become worthless as a musical instrument.)
>
> What kind of glue should I use to adhese the veneer-thin ivory to the
> walnut? I have two concerns: I don't want to discolor the ivory -- I
> want it to patinate naturally, not from the glue. But I want this
piece
> to be cherished for the rest of her life -- maybe another 80 to 90
> years.
>
> Anybody have any experience, or seen any articles?
>
> Thanks -- I'll go back to lurking for now.
>
> Dave Thompson
> davma...@onecom.com
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Dear Dave:
Many types of glue can be used, but traditionally hot hide glue was
used, mixed with a little whiting (powdered chalk) when setting ivory.
The light colour worked well with the ivory, and the hide glue was
reversable later if repairs had to be made (think chipped piano keys).
You can make your own with Franklin's Liquid Hide Glue and powdered
chalk. A good piano repair should have liquid hide glue/whiting mixture
as a stock item, and might be persuaded to part with some. Regards,
Oldwood.
Frank Weston
ivories. Whiting? That's a new one on me. What ever is used to make hide
glue white is not powdered chalk. If anything, it's titanium oxide. I can
only imagine the mess that would be made with liquid hide glue mixed with
chalk. Liquid hide glue is useless to begin with, takes forever to cure and
is full of water.
Ivories were traditionally attached to keytops with "ivory wafers" which are
thin strips of fabric soaked in a mixture of very dilute hide glue and
titanium oxide. Because any glue with moisture in it causes ivory to curl,
a complicated set of clamps are required when using ivory wafers to attach
ivories to keys. This type of wafer would be unsuited to the application the
original writer had in mind. Other glues which contain moisture are also
unsuitable.
The best and easiest way to attach ivory is CA (cyanoacryllic, super, crazy)
glue. CA glue loves ivory almost as much as it loves human skin. It won't
cause ivory to curl, bonds almost instantly, and won't discolor the ivory.
If you are worried about the color of the wood "bleeding" through, simply
use a less translucent ivory. Some ivory is almost opaque. Use the thick,
gap filling kind of CA glue, preferably the odorless type made by Bob Smith.
Frank Weston
oldwood
You are not going back far enough in time. Hide glue and chalk was used
extensively before modern glues, and to good effect. Titanium oxide is
a new "white" and is the common white in the last half of the twentieth
century - it replaced white lead pigments in commercial paints. As I am
sure you are aware, lead pigments started white, but yellowed upon
exposure to sulphur in the atmosphere. I have used hide glue/chalk in
restorations of piano keys, ivory and bone escutcheons in boxes, ivory
decorative plates, etc. many times with good results. CA glue will do
the job, but so will epoxy etc. There are many ways to do a job, I
specialize in traditional applications. Regards, oldwood.
Frank Weston
oldwood wrote
>> Dear Frank:
>You are not going back far enough in time. Hide glue and chalk was used
>extensively before modern glues, and to good effect. Titanium oxide is
>a new "white" and is the common white in the last half of the twentieth
>century - it replaced white lead pigments in commercial paints. As I am
>sure you are aware, lead pigments started white, but yellowed upon
>exposure to sulphur in the atmosphere. I have used hide glue/chalk in
>restorations of piano keys, ivory and bone escutcheons in boxes, ivory
>decorative plates, etc. many times with good results. CA glue will do
>the job, but so will epoxy etc. There are many ways to do a job, I
>specialize in traditional applications. Regards, oldwood.
>
I guess you mean the 17th century, because pianos didn't really get rolling
until the 18th, and most manufacturers in this country didn't get going
until the first part of the 19th. I've restored the earliest of these, and
they used ivory wafers. Straight hide glue just won't do for the reasons I
previously stated. Titanium oxide wasn't new to Rembrant.
If you specialize in "traditional" applications, better lose the liquid hide
glue. No traditionalist would ever use hide glue that didn't come out of a
pot, and certainly no 19th century builder would. I specialize in
functionally sound applications, traditional or otherwise, and I can assure
you that liquid hide falls in neither of these categories.
Frank Weston
Philski
takes to actually make TiO I don't think it occurred naturally in nature.
Titanium itself wasn't discovered untul 1791 and that was after Rembrandt's time
(1606-1669). What do you think it was called in Rembrandt's day?
Just a thought....
Philski
oldwood
I am curious to your reference to titanium oxide being known to
Rembrant. I am always looking for more information, so perhaps you can
direct me to additional published data on this point.
Hot hide glue is far and away my preferred glue, but I have had good
success with liquid hide, and where hide is being used by a person who
does not wish to go to the time and effort to use hot glue, my
experience is that it will do most jobs very nicely. Perhaps we must
agree to disagree on this point. Regards, oldwood.
oldwood
Philski <phi...@uswest.net> wrote:
> While Titanium Oxide may not have been new to Rembrandt, in reading
what it
> takes to actually make TiO I don't think it occurred naturally in
nature.
> Titanium itself wasn't discovered untul 1791 and that was after
Rembrandt's time
> (1606-1669). What do you think it was called in Rembrandt's day?
>
> Just a thought....
>
> Philski
>
Your point on the time of the discovery of titanium parallels my
information. In fact, the actual physical isolation of the metal did
not occur until 1825 and that feat is attributed to Berzelius. While it
does occur in a number of minerals, they are complex materials, usually
containing iron, none of which appear to be white as found in nature. I
will be indebted to Frank for more information as to the knowledge
and/or use of the material by Rembrant. The discovery of the extreme
hiding power of this pigment seems to date from the 1940's and my
understanding is that the material was not extensively used
commercially until the 1950's when the National Lead Company was
granted its patent for synthetic preparation (US Patent #2,760,874).
Frank Weston
oldwood wrote:
>> Dear Frank:
>I am curious to your reference to titanium oxide being known to
>Rembrant. I am always looking for more information, so perhaps you can
>direct me to additional published data on this point.
My reference to Rembrant was not intended to be taken literally. Sorry you
(and others) did.
On the up side, as a result of my hyperbole, readers have been stimulated to
research and provide more information on titanium oxide than than I ever
thought I would want to know.
Regards,
Frank Weston
oldwood
davma...@onecom.com wrote:
> I am about to finish making a pencil box for my future stepdaughter.
It
> is black walnut, with scrimshawed ivory inlays. (The ivory is antique,
> harvested when it was legal. I got it from an old piano, which had
> become worthless as a musical instrument.)
>
> What kind of glue should I use to adhese the veneer-thin ivory to the
> walnut? I have two concerns: I don't want to discolor the ivory -- I
> want it to patinate naturally, not from the glue. But I want this
piece
> to be cherished for the rest of her life -- maybe another 80 to 90
> years.
>
> Anybody have any experience, or seen any articles?
>
> Thanks -- I'll go back to lurking for now.
>
> Dave Thompson
> davma...@onecom.com
>
Dear Dave:
If you have followed the arguments back and forth, you have several
options from which to select as you consider your project. Experiment
first and find the one which suits your needs best. Best of luck in
your project. Oldwood.
Don
That was an interesting debate by the two restorers and I am glad they did it
as you always pick up some new information. However, neither that I could see
addressed you real concerns, those being longevity of you work and what would
look the best for inlay.
I do inlay in new construction like you are doing and I also know about CA glue
as I've used it over the last 12 years or so. CA glue hasn't been around long
enough to really know what it's effects will be 80 or 90 years from now, but
having been a radio control airplane builder, I know that stresses on air
frames, humidity changes and temperature changes affect it's ability to last.
We generally considered a model old after 5 years with this glue. It's a great
glue for that job however.
Because you are not trying to recondition an old piece of furniture back to
original condition, I would do the job with epoxy glue and because you are
using black walnut I would use the glue that is brown. You can by black and
brown epoxy already to go from luthier suppliers as they use it for inlay in
guitars of Mother of Pearl (MOP) and bone etc.
They usually are working with ebony or brown type woods so thus the backing of
the inlays is glue that is black or brown.
A good source for this is www.stewmac.com. You'll need the brown and you can
buy this in powder form from them and mix it with epoxy. Stewmac doesn't have
the epoxy already mixed in brown, but they do have it already done in white and
black. They sell the powder rosewood (brown) so you'll have to purchase that
and mix it with theirs or your own epoxy.
IMHO, I think epoxy will last the time frame you state, I don't know of any
other glue to recommend as I would be concerned with mixing chemicals (another
type glue) with this powder. I just don't know enough about the chemical make
up to recommend.
You can also get powders to mix with epoxy at a good stock art supply,
especially if their is a college close by with an art department.
Don