TS Circuit -- Part 2

[Gramps' shop]

First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:

Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the new kitchen table.

Larry

[DerbyDad03]

Sounds like a great plan. Lights on a non-power tool circuit, I assume?

Now finish up that table so you'll have a nice place to sit while you
write out those checks. ;-)

[Keith Nuttle]

If you are going to have an electrician come in and do the work, the
major part of the cost will be labor. It takes no longer to fish a wire
for a 20 amp circuit than it does an 15 amp circuit So you may as well
put in two 20 amp circuits and be prepared for the new Joiner that your
wife is getting you for your birthday, ;-)

[-MIKE-]

I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for
220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire
all the way back to the garage.

Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to
>> do:
>>
>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
>> guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
>> to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
>> new kitchen table.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
> I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
> That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
> the shop whenever you wanted. If you ever decided to wire your saw for
> 220 or add a 220 dust collector, etc., you would have to run the wire
> all the way back to the garage.
>
> Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.

Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and
current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the
shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

When I built my shop and detached garage, we ran UF from the meter can
at the house (which has a 200A panel) to the garage and installed a 100A
panel there. Lights in the shop are separate circuit. Garage lights
are on two separate circuits (one of which also has the door opener) and
wall outlets in garage and shop are two separate circuit.

Shop and garage have a total of three 220v circuits and I still have
room in the panel (and easy enough access) that I can add more if needed
(but don't see that happening).

Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting
point" is simply a "no-brainer">

[-MIKE-]

The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
(probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).

Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
wiring in the shop to save money.

[Sonny]

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:19:46 PM UTC-6, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> > I wouldn't cost much more to have a 40-60amp sub-panel in the shop area.
> > That would make it super easy for you to run extra circuits/outlets in
> >

> > Either way, upgrading the house to 200amp is a good call.
>
> Larry, Mike's suggestion is the best I've seen for your situation and
> current course of action. Bite the bullet and run the sub-panel to the
> shop vs. the two circuits you propose.

> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new "starting
> point" is simply a "no-brainer">

Agreed. My shop has a sub panel. Five breakers for 220 lines - 2 saws, air compressor, planer, bandsaw.

A sub panel would facilitate any upgrades you may plan/anticipate for the future, like installing a frig to reduce your trips to the kitchen for a beer.
See far right (i.e., the frig, not the sub panel... a nice addition to the shop "tools") - https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/21327266842/in/photostream

Sonny

[Mike Marlow]

Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to
deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as
long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.

Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not
nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your
problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.


--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 1/4/2017 3:49 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/4/17 3:19 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 1/4/2017 1:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/4/17 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>>>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>>>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>>>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>>>> to do:
>>>>
>>>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>>>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>>>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility
>>>> will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>>>> the new kitchen table.
>>>>

[snip]

>>
>> Going the subpanel route for shop and giving yourself a new
>> "starting point" is simply a "no-brainer">
>>
>
> The copper and labor are the two biggest expenses.
> Running one piece of wire through the walls, ceiling, attic, whatever,
> over to the shop is going to be easier than running two. Two lengths of
> 12gauge romex aren't going to be be much less than one length of #6
> (probably what he'll need to go to sub-panel).
>
> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
> for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
> wiring in the shop to save money.

GMTA! Unless Larry is clairvoyant, there's no telling what he may wish
to include in the shop at some future date. Given that the cost of
installing a sub-panel is likely within spitting distance of simply
ensuring that he has an adequate electric supply to the shop for NOW he
definitely should "Go big or go home!" ;)

Any changes necessary down the road will be child's play for the average
handyman who can read and understand the relevant portions of NEC.

[-MIKE-]

On 1/4/17 4:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Gramps' shop wrote:
>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
>> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going
>> to do:
>>
>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
>> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm
>> guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try
>> to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing
>> the new kitchen table.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
> to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
>

I think in his original post he said he was out of space for breakers.
Sure, you can use double breakers, but I still haven't met an
electrician who likes those things. :-)

> Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit
> as long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.
>
> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
> not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
> your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>

I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
could easily exceed 100amp service.

Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
wasted money.

[Keith Nuttle]

What ever he does he must make sure that the installation meets the
current building code for the community where the building is located.

As I found out a couple of years ago, even the installation of a simple
circuit may require a building permit.

While a building permit if required is a pain in the you know where, it
can save you a tremendous amount of hassle if you sell your home or if
there is a insurance claim in that area where the work occurred.

[Bob La Londe]

"-MIKE-" <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote in message
news:o4k0ea$5fu$1...@dont-email.me...

Mike, we are completely on the same page on that one.

[Bob La Londe]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gramps' shop" <lawrence....@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2


> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
> box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
> basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building
department won't let you.

> Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.

The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.

> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to
> hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

Get a quote so you aren't guessing.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 1/4/2017 6:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

>> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
>> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all
>> to deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.

>> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does
>> not nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix
>> your problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>>
>
> I think it's a good idea for a few reasons.
> Start adding tools to the shop that have the potential of all running at
> once and you can overload a 100amp service quickly. The shop could
> have a table saw, dust collector, air compressor, lights, chargers,
> window air conditioner, mini-fridge, lights, shop-vac, all running at
> the same time, while in the house at the same time, you can have the
> whole-house AC running, a turkey in the oven on 400°, 3 pots on the
> stove, microwave on, washer and dryer both running, water heater heating
> water, someone using a hair dryer and curling iron, bunch of lights and
> TVs on and more. I just described a typical Saturday afternoon in many
> homes. All these things going at the same time is not uncommon and
> could easily exceed 100amp service.
>
> Upgrading to 200amps is a good idea for most any home, for the reasons
> stated above and more. The average family uses a lot more electricity
> than they used to. One of the first things you'll see listed on a home
> inspection when buying/selling a home is if the electric service is only
> 100amp. If he ever intends on selling the house, the upgrade isn't
> wasted money.

You really have to assess the particular needs. For me, 200A would be
waste. I don't have central AC, I don't have an electric range. I
never run more than one power tool at a time. I don't think I've ever
pulled more than 50A at a given time.

Am I using more electricity than ever? I have more items, but my newer
refrigerators use half the power than the old ones. My flat screen TV
uses about a quarter of the old one.

Typical use for a month at my house is 750 KW, peak in summer about
830Kw. How about you?

[Leon]

Agreed. I have been using a 150 amp service since 1981, I have never
tripped the main breaker and that house was all electric.

On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but
that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC
and lighting.
The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240
volt circuit at the same time with no problem.


Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240
volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built.

I have 3 machines that run on 240 volt but never at the same time.
The new house has gas so my demand is even lower than the previous 30
years. Furnace and water heater and range now run on gas.

For me I have plenty, someone else may need more one day.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 10:31:49 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
<lawrence....@gmail.com> wrote:

>First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>
>Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for the cost of a new meter.

It's very unlikely that the power company will charge you anything to
upgrade to 200A. I'm guessing that $1200 is well short of what it'll
cost, though. If you don't need the 200A service for other things, a
sub-panel would be the way to go. A sub-panel in the basement would
be ideal.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:49:08 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

#8 is good for 40A, IIRC. That's enough for any one man shop. It's a
*lot* easier to work with. #6 is a right PITA. It will be more
costly to run either than a couple of 12s. Actually, he could get
away with one 12-3, for two circuits.

BTW, #6-3 w/Ground Romex is 6x the cost, per foot, as 12-2 w/ground.

>
>Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100 bucks
>for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can run his own
>wiring in the shop to save money.

I think you're way low on your estimates.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:43:14 -0700, "Bob La Londe" <no...@none.com99>
wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gramps' shop" <lawrence....@gmail.com>
>Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
>Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:31 AM
>Subject: TS Circuit -- Part 2
>
>
>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The breaker
>> box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route to the
>> basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>>
>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.
>
>Good call if you don't know how to do that yourself, or your local building
>department won't let you.
>
>> Add a dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.
>
>NO! NO! NO! Run a 100 amp circuit to the basement and install a 100 amp
>sub panel. Something capable of atleast 6 circuits. If you use Square D
>then you have the capability to use compact breakers and double the number
>of circuits if you need to later. Regardless, putting a sub panel in your
>basement allows you to add stuff much easier in the future.

The size of the sub depends on the service entrance. If he only has a
100A entrance, a 100A sub is going to be a problem. Also, if he's
going to the bother to put in a sub, use one with at least 20
circuits. The difference in cost is pocket change. I wouldn't put in
more than a 40A or 60A sub, tops. There's nothing a homeowner is
likely to use that will take that much. The capapbility of lots of
circuits is important, though.

>
>The total cost will probably only be a few hundred dollars more, but the
>future flexibility will be an order of magnitude more.
>
>> I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to
>> hit me up for the cost of a new meter.
>
>Get a quote so you aren't guessing.

+1 (I think he's low)

>
>
>
>

[k...@notreal.com]

I haven't trippen a main on any of my houses. I don't believe I've
heard of anyone who has. I have two 150A panels, each with 40 breaker
position, in an unfinished basement. No problems with power in this
house. ;-)

>
>On occasion I tripped the breaker on a 15 amp circuit in my old shop but
>that was with a 3 hp router running for 2 hours straight, a fan, a DC
>and lighting.
>The electric dryer and either the TS, Planer, or BS ran on the same 240
>volt circuit at the same time with no problem.
>
>
>Today our newer home has a 150 amp service box and I had a dedicated 240
>volt and a dedicated 120 volt 20 amp added before the house was built.

I would have run a sub. My last house had a 200A main but it was
full, so I added a sub right next to it, moved to circuits from the
house over to the sub, then used those spaces for a breaker to the sub
(right next to the main).

[-MIKE-]

That wasn't really the pertinent point I was trying to make.

>>
>> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100
>> bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can
>> run his own wiring in the shop to save money.
>
> I think you're way low on your estimates.
>

Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a
200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel
wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything
else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:31:43 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>

The labor cost for one #6 will be much higher, too. That stuff is a
PITA to work with.

>
>
>>>
>>> Then the labor to install the sub-panel is probably another $100
>>> bucks for an electrician who's already there. From there, he can
>>> run his own wiring in the shop to save money.
>>
>> I think you're way low on your estimates.
>>
>
>Ask the electrician who quoted that to me when we were spec'ing out a
>200amp breaker box change over. He said installing the other panel
>wouldn't be more than another hour and a half labor on top of everything
>else he was doing. He charges $60/hr.

Just moving the breakers will take a lot more than a couple of hours.
It's more like an 8-12 hour job. Then there's the dicking around with
the power company and inspectors, and all that rot. It's not a simple
task. I've seen quotes well above $1000 for just a panel swap.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

Agree with everyone else about running a subpanel instead of the couple circuits. I have a 100 amp panel in the garage. I used a 60 amp breaker to put a subpanel in the basement. I installed a lot of circuits and lights and two 220 plugs in the basement. Had to use some of the double breakers to make room in the main panel for the subpanel breaker.

[Dr. Deb]

I agree with Mike and Unquestionably. In fact that is the setup I have. That subpanel just makes life soooooooo much easier, but get one with at least 8 breakers spaces in it.

One change I would make to their suggestions, I would run 100A to the shop. That way you have plenty of power if you wind up adding something that likes it amps. Also, depending on both where you live and your comfort level, you can do the wiring of the shop yourself and save a lot. Also, depending on where you live, the power company may not require a new meter. If you are aerial to the house (vs buried cable), they may run the heavier service to your house at no cost.

[Doug Miller]

"Gramps' shop" <lawrence....@gmail.com> wrote in
news:72789efa-08d4-46dc...@googlegroups.com:

> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open
> route to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am
> going to do:
>
> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a
> dedicated 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop.

Not enough IMHO.

If you're hiring an electrician anyway, have him run one 240V 60A circuit feeding a subpanel
in the shop. That way, you'll have 240V available in the shop if you ever need it, and more
than one 20A circuit at 120V.

[-MIKE-]

There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel. But you
know what, I'll tell my electrician he has it all wrong and he should
call you.

[woodchucker]

On 1/4/2017 5:51 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Gramps' shop wrote:
>> First of all, thanks for all the comments and good advice. The
>> breaker box is located in the garage and there is no clear, open route
>> to the basement and on to the shop. Here's what I am going to do:
>>
>> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service. Add a dedicated
>> 20 amp and a dedicated 15 amp circuit to the shop. I'm guessing $1200
>> to $1500 for this and I suppose the utility will try to hit me up for
>> the cost of a new meter.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm done ripping the maple and on to completing the
>> new kitchen table.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
> Upgrading to 200A won't help you one bit. You are not tripping your
> main breaker, so it is not being over loaded. It does no good at all to
> deliver more current to your house than you are drawing.
>
> Go back to your original plan of putting a 20A breaker in the circuit as
> long as you have 12ga wire in that branch circuit.
>
> Jut don't waste your money upgrading a service entrance that does not
> nee upgrading. Any electrician that tells you this will fix your
> problem is just lying to you in order to take your money.
>
>

Mike Marlow ... how the hell are you...???


--
Jeff

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel.

??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220 amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220 breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those breakers.

[-MIKE-]

I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about.

I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
This can come off the main feed into the house.
I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.

But it really doesn't matter anyway, because it's semantics since every
situation is different.
The labor/price I quoted was from a real electrician doing a real job,
similar to the one I suggested to the OP. I wasn't submitting a bid or
giving him an exact quote for the job. I was simply giving advice and a
real world example to help him decide. As usual in here, everybody has
to jump in and bitch about every little aspect of everything everyone
says.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 7:05:40 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>
> >> There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel.
> >
> >
> > ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220
> > amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use
> > some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220
> > breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those
> > breakers.
> >
>
> I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about.
>
> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
> This can come off the main feed into the house.
> I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.

Maybe some misunderstanding. How about a 60 amp 220 volt breaker in the main panel to feed the sub panel.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:57:29 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>

Sorry, I thougt we were talking about replacing the panel with a 200A
service. I agree, a sub shoud only take an hour or two (give or take
a bunch of sheetrock).

[k...@notreal.com]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:05:36 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

>On 1/5/17 5:34 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:57:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>> There are no breakers to move when installing a new sub-panel.
>>
>>
>> ??? To install a sub panel you have to "move" a new/additional 220
>> amp breaker into the main panel. New breaker. You may have to use
>> some of those double up breakers to make space for the new 220
>> breaker feeding the sub panel. So you would be moving those
>> breakers.
>>
>
>I think there's some misunderstanding of what we're talking about.
>
>I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
>This can come off the main feed into the house.
>I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.

I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space
has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I
read it.

[Leon]

On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:

>> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage.
>> This can come off the main feed into the house.
>> I'm not sure what a 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.
>
> I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then space
> has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least that's how I
> read it.

Maybe even he meant 240 volt.

[Bob La Londe]

<k...@notreal.com> wrote in message
news:tacr6chhom0o0easv...@4ax.com...

I think we are mostly on the same page here. We just disagree about the
details.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the outlet says 115 volts.

[Leon]

IIRC it was 110/220, now it is 120/240 in the USA. Why that changed I
do not know unless it was to be able to save on the gauge of cables and
wires. And most home electrical devices will run on slightly less than
and or slightly higher than the stated voltage.

Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal

[Markem]

It could also be 132 Vac so that would be 264.

Just as long as it works does not matter what you call it.

[John McCoy]

"russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:d6e6d442-ef06-4aa5...@googlegroups.com:

> Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
> the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those
> are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers
> used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why
> does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the
> outlet says 115 volts.

It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
longer understood, that was considered "safe"). When Tesla
and General Electric developed AC systems, they picked 120V
as the "household" voltage, but because 110 was already in
the public conciousness, people continued to call it 110V.

115V comes about because the utility is allowed 5% tolerance
for line loss, and 115 just sounds better than 114 (which is
what 120 less 5% would be).

220V and 240V are the same story - Edison used 220V in his
first DC systems, and GE used 240 when they introduced AC.

230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the
US. It's the standard household voltage in the EU, so if
you see something marked 230/240 it's probably intended for
sale in the EU and US.

John

[Leon]

On 1/6/2017 3:40 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> "russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:d6e6d442-ef06-4aa5...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
>> the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those
>> are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers
>> used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why
>> does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the
>> outlet says 115 volts.
>
> It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
> originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
> longer understood, that was considered "safe").

Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
quite a bight many miles away.

[-MIKE-]

"One ten, one eleven, whatever takes."

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 1/6/2017 3:52 PM, Leon wrote:

> Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal

Unless is is 480

I read the explanation once but still don't get 277 volts from 2 legs of
3 phase.

The nominal 120 was decided as the standard for north America but I'm
not sure when. Voltages were 110, 115, 117 in different places some
years ago.

[k...@notreal.com]

<g> Most people confuse the two. ;-)

[k...@notreal.com]

Yup, I don't remember when it changed but it was 115/230V at some
point between those two standards.

>
>Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal

It's often called that but it is 480V.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 20:06:19 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>On 1/6/2017 3:52 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal
>
>Unless is is 480
>
>I read the explanation once but still don't get 277 volts from 2 legs of
>3 phase.

It's the opposite. 277V is a single phase of a 480V phase-to-phase
system. This is entirely different than a 120V system (a transformer
is required to get there).

https://ctlsys.com/electrical_service_types_and_voltages/

>
>The nominal 120 was decided as the standard for north America but I'm
>not sure when. Voltages were 110, 115, 117 in different places some
>years ago.

Yes, I'd forgotten 117V.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:30:07 -0700, "Bob La Londe" <no...@none.com99>

Probably talking past each other. It happens when threads get
convoluted.

[Brewster]

On 1/6/17 2:48 PM, Leon wrote:


>
> Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
> from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
> within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
> quite a bight many miles away.
>
>
>
>

Actually no different. There is consideration of switching some high
voltage lines to DC partially because for the same peak voltage the
wires can carry significantly more power.

A big reason for the switch from DC to AC is the ability to efficiently
reduce the voltage at point of use, allowing the distribution lines to
run at higher voltage with the exponentially lower power losses.


-BR

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 08:25:12 -0700, Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote:

>On 1/6/17 2:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
>> from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
>> within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
>> quite a bight many miles away.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Actually no different. There is consideration of switching some high
>voltage lines to DC partially because for the same peak voltage the
>wires can carry significantly more power.

No, that's not the reason. High voltage DC transmission doesn't have
inductive, skn effect or (the same) corona losses. AC has the
advantage of cheap transformation from one voltage to another.

>
>A big reason for the switch from DC to AC is the ability to efficiently
>reduce the voltage at point of use, allowing the distribution lines to
>run at higher voltage with the exponentially lower power losses.

The issue at hand is distribution. AC is much easier to transform, so
higher distribution voltages are possible.

[Leon]

LOL 480 it is!



>

[dpb]

Believe it's more when and what voltages were standardized by what was
to eventually become NERC...the first standards meeting was held in
about 1896(!) and then there were updates to nominal voltages a couple
times thereafter -- but, the public consciousness can't be changed; we
all grow up with whatever it is we hear and then pass it along with only
a few modifying influences gradually adding to the diversity.

[Leon]

On 1/7/2017 9:25 AM, Brewster wrote:
> On 1/6/17 2:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
>> from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
>> within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
>> quite a bight many miles away.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Actually no different. There is consideration of switching some high
> voltage lines to DC partially because for the same peak voltage the
> wires can carry significantly more power.

That may be now but back then the DC simply did not have the range that
AC did.

Cars used to have 6 volt systems but switched to 12 volt so that the
cables could be smaller.

[John McCoy]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:Q9idnQchSrQoje3FnZ2dnUU7-
dfN...@giganews.com:

> On 1/6/2017 3:40 PM, John McCoy wrote:

>> It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
>> originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
>> longer understood, that was considered "safe").
>
> Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
> from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
> within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
> quite a bight many miles away.

AC doesn't have the same losses as DC because it can be
transferred at a higher voltage. If you sent AC from the
generating station to your house at 120V you'd have the
same losses as with DC. The wires on the utility pole
outside your house are 4600V (or something in that range,
different utilities use various distribution voltages).

Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.

John

[John McCoy]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:YPydndGe9p2PjuzFnZ2dnUU7-
afN...@giganews.com:

> Cars used to have 6 volt systems but switched to 12 volt so that the
> cables could be smaller.

Sort of. The real reason it was done was because tetra-ethyl
lead was invented.

(Tetra-ethyl lead allows higher octane gasoline. Higher octane
gasoline allows higher compression engines. Higher compression
engines require more power from the starter motor to get them
started, which requires more current from the battery. During
the 1950's compression ratios went from ~6:1 to ~9:1, which
became a problem for both the battery and the cables. Hence
the switch to 12 volt electrical systems.)

John

[John McCoy]

k...@notreal.com wrote in news:qhq07ch4mk7fj1hms...@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 14:52:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>>Oddly I think 440 volt is still normal
>
> It's often called that but it is 480V.

Now let's really confuse everyone by talking about the
difference between RMS voltages and P-P voltages :-)

John

[k...@notreal.com]

"Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
solved.

[Leon]

On 1/7/2017 10:21 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:Q9idnQchSrQoje3FnZ2dnUU7-
> dfN...@giganews.com:
>
>> On 1/6/2017 3:40 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>
>>> It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
>>> originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
>>> longer understood, that was considered "safe").
>>
>> Probably considered safe because DC lost voltage quickly the farther
>> from the generator the lines went. IIRC there had to be a generator
>> within a few miles of the consumer. AC on the other hand still had
>> quite a bight many miles away.
>
> AC doesn't have the same losses as DC because it can be
> transferred at a higher voltage. If you sent AC from the
> generating station to your house at 120V you'd have the
> same losses as with DC. The wires on the utility pole
> outside your house are 4600V (or something in that range,
> different utilities use various distribution voltages).

FWIW I was speaking about the time when electricity was just starting to
be used in homes. DC was not practical as there had to be way too many
generation stations. Only the affluent were served in the early days,
they could afford to have/pay for a DC generation station near by.

The wires out side my home on utility poles are maybe 480 volt NOT forty
six thousand. Now the voltage on the hi power transmission lines are
much much higher but they are not near by and they go to transformer
stations where the voltage is dropped and sent to consumers and still
more power pole transformers.. The closest transformer station to me is
8 miles away.

[Leon]

Not sure I follow.

Both lead and higher octane fuels reduce precognition knock. Lead did
not allow higher octane, it boosted the octane. Lead's main feature was
that it lubricated the valves, boosting octane was a perk. Hence in the
early 70's when unleaded fuel was introduced only vehicles with modern
engines could run unleaded fuel with out damage to the valve train.

Knock is caused by a number of reasons, compression being only one of
them. Hotter running engines also create more compression and running
more advance on the spark timing will cause an engine to run hotter.

In the early 80's American built vehicles had relatively low compression
ratio engines, in the 6's, and engine knock was a constant problem.
Enter the computers and knock sensors to retard the ignition timing.

[Leon]

When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.

I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:

>>> Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
>>> of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
>>> unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.
>>
>> "Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
>> talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
>> reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
>> it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
>> solved.
>>
>
>
> When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
> I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.
>
> I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.
>
>

Coming soon, evidently


Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
Delphi’s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
when a vehicle slows down.

Read more:
http://autoweek.com/article/technology/48-volt-systems-are-bringing-more-power-and-better-fuel-economy#ixzz4V6czYRqB

[Markem]

Just multiply peak by .707.

[Markem]

Whether AC or DC is safer was Edison's point when he electrocuted an
elephant with AC. But DC was a dead by then.

[Spalted Walt]

John McCoy <igo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> "russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:d6e6d442-ef06-4aa5...@googlegroups.com:
>
> > Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
> > the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure those
> > are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the numbers
> > used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use it? Why
> > does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house, but the
> > outlet says 115 volts.
>
> It's a variety of historical reasons. 110V is what Edison
> originally used for his first DC systems (for reasons no
> longer understood, that was considered "safe"). When Tesla
> and General Electric developed AC systems, they picked 120V
> as the "household" voltage, but because 110 was already in
> the public conciousness, people continued to call it 110V.
>
> 115V comes about because the utility is allowed 5% tolerance
> for line loss, and 115 just sounds better than 114 (which is
> what 120 less 5% would be).
>

110V is a legacy term left over from the war of currents that
Tesla/Westinghouse won.

115V comes from the 'design side', equipment is normally designed to
run on 115V ±10%

120V comes from the 'supply side', under standard conditions electrical
utilities deliver electricity at 120V ±5%

http://i.imgur.com/7tkZ2mm.jpg

>
> 230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the
> US.

Not necessarily, my Unisaw is 3hp single phase, 60HZ, 230V as are
these and countless others:

SawStop
https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg

Jet
https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/nl7owop.jpg

[k...@notreal.com]

About 10-15 years ago. The purpose was to save weight in the wiring
and starter. It would have caused all sorts of other grief, though.

>
>I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.

Exactly.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 14:32:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>>>> Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
>>>> of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
>>>> unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.
>>>
>>> "Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
>>> talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
>>> reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
>>> it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
>>> solved.
>>>
>>
>>
>> When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
>> I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.
>>
>> I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.
>>
>>
>
>Coming soon, evidently

It's not. It causes the electronics all sorts of grief and will
increase costs significantly.

[k...@notreal.com]

More like eleven thousand (maybe twenty-two thousand).

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2017 15:44:46 -0600, Markem <mark...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Tesla's induction motor put the nail in Edison's DC power coffin.

[Leon]

Jeez even more reason to do work on you car yourself, especially
electrical. I recall electrical being so touchy in the early 80's that
factory standards called to replace a broken wire, like to a signal
lamp, with the complete socket and wires that came with the socket.
shortening or lengthening the existing broken wire would set off error
codes. I'm clueless how one determined if the new pigtail would shorten
or lengthen the run being observed by the ECM.

[Leon]

On 1/7/2017 5:37 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:

>>
>>
>> When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
>> I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.
>
> About 10-15 years ago. The purpose was to save weight in the wiring
> and starter. It would have caused all sorts of other grief, though.
>>
>> I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.
>
> Exactly.
>

Here we go, spend millions and pass onto the consumer to save the
consumer a couple of gallons of gasoline every year.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 1/7/2017 6:26 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:

>>
>> 230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the
>> US.
>
> Not necessarily, my Unisaw is 3hp single phase, 60HZ, 230V as are
> these and countless others:
>
> SawStop
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg
>
> Jet
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/nl7owop.jpg
>

Motor rating. You are probably getting 240 across the wires.

[Leon]

On 1/7/2017 5:58 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/7/2017 1:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>>> Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
>>>>> of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
>>>>> unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.
>>>>
>>>> "Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
>>>> talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
>>>> reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
>>>> it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
>>>> solved.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
>>> I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive
>>> business.
>>>
>>> I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Coming soon, evidently
>>
>>
>> Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
>> electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
>> Delphi’s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
>> strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
>> when a vehicle slows down.
>>
>> Read more:
>> http://autoweek.com/article/technology/48-volt-systems-are-bringing-more-power-and-better-fuel-economy#ixzz4V6czYRqB
>>
>>
>>
>

> Jeez even more reason to "NOT" do work on your car yourself, especially
> electrical.

[k...@notreal.com]

File your complaint with Obama.

[Leon]

LOL Done! He and the like are out'a here.

[Spalted Walt]

Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

> On 1/7/2017 6:26 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
>
> >>
> >> 230V is a different animal - that's a 3 phase voltage in the
> >> US.
> >
> > Not necessarily, my Unisaw is 3hp single phase, 60HZ, 230V as are
> > these and countless others:
> >
> > SawStop
> > https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg
> >
> > Jet
> > https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/nl7owop.jpg
> >
>
> Motor rating.

Obviously.

> You are probably getting 240 across the wires.

The point is a designation of 230V being exclusively "a 3 phase
voltage in the US" is wrong.

[Martin Eastburn]

I remember 110 being standard then moving to 115.
Then 117 and then 120. In some places 125 and 130 is common.

It all is the expanding current / power use on the far end
of the power house. Same copper increase the voltage and more power.

All you have to do is change a tap at the transmitter and downflow is
automatically changed by ratio.

Martin

On 1/6/2017 2:52 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/6/2017 1:59 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 8:16:13 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2017 8:00 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I suggested the OP put a sub-panel out in his garage. This can
>>>>> come off the main feed into the house. I'm not sure what a
>>>>> 220amp breaker is that you mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> I think he means 220V breaker. If the main panel is full, then
>>>> space has to be made for the breaker feeding the sub. At least
>>>> that's how I read it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe even he meant 240 volt.
>>

>> Not being an officially trained electrician, I've never looked into
>> the 220-230-240 volt or 120-115-110 volt issue. I'm pretty sure
>> those are all identical and interchangeable, but why are all the
>> numbers used interchangeably? Why don't we pick one number and use
>> it? Why does everyone talk about 120 volt outlets in their house,
>> but the outlet says 115 volts.
>>
>
>
>

> IIRC it was 110/220, now it is 120/240 in the USA. Why that changed I
> do not know unless it was to be able to save on the gauge of cables and
> wires. And most home electrical devices will run on slightly less than
> and or slightly higher than the stated voltage.
>

[Martin Eastburn]

400 cycles was invented for Airplanes. Smaller transformers.
28 cycles was invented for ships. It was never implemented. Large
transformers were ok - they were ballast. The 28 cycle was dangerous
to the human body. It entered the body on a body short.

My dad lost the marrow in one of his arms when he was bumped into a 28
hz generator. His arm went out in front to protect his fall and across
two buss bars. Two burn holes and it goes to the center. He was
working on Naval Radar and other Naval power needs.

60 cycle / Hz is skin effect. So it is far safer. Consider 28 with
left arm to right leg - burn a heart out. 60 hz stops the lungs typically.

Martin

On 1/7/2017 10:29 AM, John McCoy wrote:

[Martin Eastburn]

Just wait - 56v is coming to auto. Local switchers for voltages.
Martin

On 1/7/2017 10:51 AM, k...@notreal.com wrote:

[whit3rd]

At full charging rate, the terminals would be well over 52V; what I remember, the
auto buzz was about '42V', which is a 36V battery and allowance for
overvoltage during heavy charging.

<http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a2198/4226979/>

Changing standards can be an engineering nightmare, because so many
decisions have already been optimized for 12V. There aren't 'too many
problems' so much as too many decisions to be remade.

[Swingman]

On 1/4/2017 12:31 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:

> Get an electrician to upgrade me to 200 amp service.

Hey, look! ... a wRec electrical thread to jump in with another opinion.

What -MIKE- originally said ... think SUB-PANEL!

When spending the money to upgrade your home's electrical service to a
more modern 200A, the addition of a sub panel (60A is ideal) to your
shop is the most cost effective time to do it; and would add utility for
both your home, your shop, and you.

Just like you can't have too many clamps, a serious Normite woodworker
requires a sub panel in his shop PERIOD, end of story.

... it's 240v ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Leon]

On 1/7/2017 10:09 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Just wait - 56v is coming to auto. Local switchers for voltages.
> Martin

Thinking about this more, The hybrids and especially the all electrics
,like Tesla, have much much higher voltage.

[Leon]

On 1/8/2017 2:59 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 8:51:51 AM UTC-8, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:21:42 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
>> <igo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> "Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
>> talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
>> reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
>> it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
>> solved.
>
> At full charging rate, the terminals would be well over 52V; what I remember, the
> auto buzz was about '42V', which is a 36V battery and allowance for
> overvoltage during heavy charging.

That is pretty common with any battery. 12 volt batteries, when fully
charged, have about 13.2 volts. In the industry it is called a surface
charge. That extra 1.2 volts dissipates pretty quickly after initial
use. Basically the cells in an automotive type battery can have 2.2
volts with a surface charge.


Now with the new lithium batteries I am clueless as to how much more
voltage they can carry.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt wrote:
>
> SawStop
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg

Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread. But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on their website and it says this:

"The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.

SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and engineered."

Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA. I guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many decades ago. I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.

[Unknown]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:7vadnaMfj97Q6u_FnZ2dnUU7-
VOd...@giganews.com:

Not only that, but they've got DUAL VOLTAGE! Just wait until the
marketers get ahold of that. (Dear marketers, if you want to use that,
please contact me for terms and conditions.)

I'm wondering when we'll get rid of the awful cigarette lighter power
plug design and go with something better suited for the purpose like
Anderson Powerpoles.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 1/8/2017 3:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA. I guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many decades ago. I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.
>

That's a broad statement. Yes, some junk comes from China but look
around you. Asia takes in a lot of countries. Who has been making the
best camera equipment, sound equipment and some medical devices and
equipment for the past few dozen years?

I've been in my industry for 46 years. We've bought tooling from the
US, Germany, Austria, Italy. The best is now coming from China at 2/3
the price and half the lead time.

[Leon]

On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt
> wrote:
>>
>> SawStop https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg
>
> Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread.
> But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in
> Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how
> wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I
> would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed
> a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on
> their website and it says this:
>
> "The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has
> made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.
>
> SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just
> south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and
> engineered."
>
> Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA.

Did you think differently? American automobiles are built elsewhere
too. Some Buicks are built in China and only sold here.

I
> guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety
> device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta,
> Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to
> resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many
> decades ago.

Not like those saws at all. The internals are totally different than
the brands you listed above. It looks nothing like the others saws on
the inside. The trunion slides straight up and down on two large steel
dowels.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558850/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558766/in/dateposted-public/

Those gears for tilt and raising the trunion are an inch and a half in
diameter.

chttps://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8680321455/in/dateposted-public/

I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of
> Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not
> sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I
> needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.
>

Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

[k...@notreal.com]

On 08 Jan 2017 20:25:28 GMT, Puckdropper

<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:7vadnaMfj97Q6u_FnZ2dnUU7-
>VOd...@giganews.com:
>
>> On 1/7/2017 10:09 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>>> Just wait - 56v is coming to auto. Local switchers for voltages.
>>> Martin
>>
>>
>> Thinking about this more, The hybrids and especially the all electrics
>> ,like Tesla, have much much higher voltage.
>>
>
>Not only that, but they've got DUAL VOLTAGE! Just wait until the
>marketers get ahold of that. (Dear marketers, if you want to use that,
>please contact me for terms and conditions.)
>
>I'm wondering when we'll get rid of the awful cigarette lighter power
>plug design and go with something better suited for the purpose like
>Anderson Powerpoles.

More likely, they'll be replaced by USB connectors.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:45:33 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> SawStop https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg
>>
>> Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread.
>> But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in
>> Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how
>> wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I
>> would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed
>> a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on
>> their website and it says this:
>>
>> "The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has
>> made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.
>>
>> SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just
>> south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and
>> engineered."
>>
>> Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA.
>
>Did you think differently? American automobiles are built elsewhere
>too. Some Buicks are built in China and only sold here.

Hmm. Are you comparing SawStop to a Buick? ;-)

>
>
> I
>> guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety
>> device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta,
>> Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to
>> resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many
>> decades ago.
>
>Not like those saws at all. The internals are totally different than
>the brands you listed above. It looks nothing like the others saws on
>the inside. The trunion slides straight up and down on two large steel
>dowels.
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558850/in/dateposted-public/
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558766/in/dateposted-public/
>
>Those gears for tilt and raising the trunion are an inch and a half in
>diameter.
>
>chttps://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8680321455/in/dateposted-public/
>
>
>
>
> I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of
>> Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not
>> sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I
>> needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.
>>
>
>Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
>products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

AFAIK, Acura is a NA-only brand (of Honda). They don't sell them in
Japan, anyway.

[Leon]

On 1/8/2017 4:45 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:45:33 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 5:26:45 PM UTC-6, Spalted Walt
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> SawStop https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/lymffnt.jpg
>>>
>>> Completely unrelated to the electrical discussion in this thread.
>>> But I am shocked by the picture of the SawStop motor. Made in
>>> Taiwan. On another forum I read people are always talking about how
>>> wonderful and professional and heavy duty their SawStop saws are. I
>>> would never have guessed they use an Asian motor. Foolishly assumed
>>> a US company would use a Marathon, Baldor, Leeson motor. I looked on
>>> their website and it says this:
>>>
>>> "The combination of safety, unparalleled design and craftsmanship has
>>> made SawStop the #1 cabinet saw in North America.
>>>
>>> SawStop is a privately owned company based in Tualatin, Oregon, just
>>> south of Portland. We are proud to be 100% U.S. owned and
>>> engineered."
>>>
>>> Apparently US owned and engineered does not mean Made in USA.
>>
>> Did you think differently? American automobiles are built elsewhere
>> too. Some Buicks are built in China and only sold here.
>
> Hmm. Are you comparing SawStop to a Buick? ;-)

Not at all but Buick is getting good ratings these days. Just saying
country of origin does not dictate quality or the lack there of.

>>
>>
>> I
>>> guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety
>>> device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta,
>>> Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to
>>> resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many
>>> decades ago.
>>
>> Not like those saws at all. The internals are totally different than
>> the brands you listed above. It looks nothing like the others saws on
>> the inside. The trunion slides straight up and down on two large steel
>> dowels.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558850/in/dateposted-public/
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558766/in/dateposted-public/
>>
>> Those gears for tilt and raising the trunion are an inch and a half in
>> diameter.
>>
>> chttps://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8680321455/in/dateposted-public/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of
>>> Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not
>>> sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I
>>> needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.
>>>
>>
>> Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
>> products and pretty much at the top of the hill.
>
> AFAIK, Acura is a NA-only brand (of Honda). They don't sell them in
> Japan, anyway.
>

Interesting to know! And mostly built here.

[Leon]

On 1/8/2017 2:25 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:7vadnaMfj97Q6u_FnZ2dnUU7-
> VOd...@giganews.com:
>
>> On 1/7/2017 10:09 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>>> Just wait - 56v is coming to auto. Local switchers for voltages.
>>> Martin
>>
>>
>> Thinking about this more, The hybrids and especially the all electrics
>> ,like Tesla, have much much higher voltage.
>>
>
> Not only that, but they've got DUAL VOLTAGE! Just wait until the
> marketers get ahold of that. (Dear marketers, if you want to use that,
> please contact me for terms and conditions.)
>
> I'm wondering when we'll get rid of the awful cigarette lighter power
> plug design and go with something better suited for the purpose like
> Anderson Powerpoles.
>
> Puckdropper
>

The Anderson connectors look to be more of a connector intended to be
left in tact, ie. most electrical connections in vehicles. They may be
a PIA to hook an accessory up to on a daily basis.

The ones I saw look more like a more secure version of the old
automotive spade connectors.

[Unknown]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:A92dnc2hrtp3fu_FnZ2dnUU7-
UOd...@giganews.com:

>
>
> The Anderson connectors look to be more of a connector intended to be
> left in tact, ie. most electrical connections in vehicles. They may be
> a PIA to hook an accessory up to on a daily basis.
>
> The ones I saw look more like a more secure version of the old
> automotive spade connectors.
>

They're rated for 10,000 connect/disconnect cycles, and take
approximately 3 lbs of force to do so. For a 2-position PowerPole block,
the force rating is probably true. For a larger block, it's a little
harder.

https://powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpole-connectors-15amp-unassembled

One of the problems we constantly experience with cigarette lighter plugs
is they come out so easily. PowerPoles still connect and disconnect
readily, but won't come apart with a tiny tug on the power cable.

I haven't ever tried them with something heavy hanging off the end like a
power converter, so I don't know how they'd handle that situation.

[k...@notreal.com]

Ick. They were always your grandfather's car and AFAIC still are,
even though I'm alost 65. ;-)

>
>>>
>>>
>>> I
>>>> guess its just another Asian made saw with a US invented safety
>>>> device on it. Kind of like the current Jet, General, Delta,
>>>> Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. saws are all Asian made saws designed to
>>>> resemble the original American made Unisaw and 66 saws from many
>>>> decades ago.
>>>
>>> Not like those saws at all. The internals are totally different than
>>> the brands you listed above. It looks nothing like the others saws on
>>> the inside. The trunion slides straight up and down on two large steel
>>> dowels.
>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558850/in/dateposted-public/
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558766/in/dateposted-public/
>>>
>>> Those gears for tilt and raising the trunion are an inch and a half in
>>> diameter.
>>>
>>> chttps://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8680321455/in/dateposted-public/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not too confident in the quality and reliability of
>>>> Asian products. I don't associate quality and Asia together. Not
>>>> sure I would trust the SawStop safety feature to even work when I
>>>> needed it. A safety saw that cuts your fingers off.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
>>> products and pretty much at the top of the hill.
>>
>> AFAIK, Acura is a NA-only brand (of Honda). They don't sell them in
>> Japan, anyway.
>>
>Interesting to know! And mostly built here.

Marysville Ohio (NE of Columbus).

[Martin Eastburn]

Actually they have that figured.

Run a small, high voltage wire to under the dash. Attach through fuse
and confuse customer with odd numbering. Take the fuses line to a power
block - contains a switcher in a block (swap out) and the block produces
5, 6, 12, 14, 28v..... have three or so blocks of different colors and
they produce various voltages - e.g. for back seat of the drivers - for
the local computer / game console. Another to the xxx for USB and other
charging. It can supply high current or simply reference voltages.
Just modules to plug and play. Kinda like large fist size or thinner -
power pack. Even supply the 12v socket.

Might have to supply a 12V to high voltage for the boost a battery....
(switcher use in reverse).

Martin

On 1/8/2017 2:59 AM, whit3rd wrote:

[Martin Eastburn]

Is there a class of machine that is foreign and others are local ? Or
are you looking at foreign made for foreign markets ?

I looked at the 3hp 230v and 13 amps.

Martin

On 1/8/2017 2:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:

[Scott Lurndal]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:

>The wires out side my home on utility poles are maybe 480 volt NOT forty
>six thousand. Now the voltage on the hi power transmission lines are
>much much higher but they are not near by and they go to transformer
>stations where the voltage is dropped and sent to consumers and still
>more power pole transformers.. The closest transformer station to me is
>8 miles away.

The transformer that feeds 240v to my domicile has 22kv on the primary side
(fed underground).

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>
> Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
> products and pretty much at the top of the hill.

Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian. Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same quality?

I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not what I consider the best of the best quality.

[Leon]

On 1/9/2017 2:05 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:45:41 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>>
>> Ignorance is bliss I guess, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Acura are Asian
>> products and pretty much at the top of the hill.
>
> Guessing everyone but you knew what I meant when I wrote Asian.
> Japan is excluded. China and similar countries are Asian. Kind of
> like saying European. Some think Germany and Switzerland. But
> Turkey and Slovakia and Hungary and Poland are European too. Same
> quality?

Ok, Samsung, Hyundai, Genesis, Powermatic Is that close enough for you? ;~)

>
> I have many Chinese products. Or Asian. The computer I am typing on
> is probably Chinese. TV too. They seem to be OK quality. But not
> what I consider the best of the best quality.
>

Well you get what you pay for. If you don't buy the best that a country
offers you are ignorant to what is available.

[J. Clarke]

In article <%mbcA.105533$cz2....@fx31.iad>,
e...@snet.net says...

>
> On 1/7/2017 1:39 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> >>> Today "safe" is considered to be around 12V. I can't think
> >>> of any situation where you'd consider 110V to be "safe",
> >>> unless you're comparing it to something like 1200V.
> >>

> >> "Safe" is considered to be anything less than 52V. There was once
> >> talk about the automotive industry moving to a 48V battery. The
> >> reason for 48V was that it was just below the "safe" limit. Of course
> >> it never happened because it would have caused more problems than it
> >> solved.
> >>
> >
> >

> > When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
> > I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.
> >

> > I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.
> >
> >
>

> Coming soon, evidently
>
>
> Not every electrical component will switch to 48-volt. Lights, radios,
> electric windows and door locks, for example, would stay 12-volt. And
> Delphi?s vision is that vehicles with 48-volt systems would also have a
> strong regenerative braking system to capture much of the energy lost
> when a vehicle slows down.
>
> Read more:
> http://autoweek.com/article/technology/48-volt-systems-are-bringing-more-power-and-better-fuel-economy#ixzz4V6czYRqB

And when you can buy a car that says "Delphi
Motors" on the front then the industry will give
a crap what bullshit "Delphi" is trying to sell.

Bolt runs on 350v, Volt runs on 360, Tesla runs
on 375. All have 12v subsystems to support
various accessories. The notion that 48v is of
some great advantage in building hybrids and
electrics has little contact with reality.

[J. Clarke]

In article <tj137c5ichkht409ofdgc3chl6k8jdapil@
4ax.com>, k...@notreal.com says...

>
> On Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:00:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
> >On 1/7/2017 5:37 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>>

> >>> When was that talk? No doubt, there is always something in the air but
> >>> I never read or heard of that back when I was in the automotive business.
> >>

> >> About 10-15 years ago. The purpose was to save weight in the wiring
> >> and starter. It would have caused all sorts of other grief, though.
> >>>

> >>> I'm sure it was intended to help make vehicles lighter in weight.
> >>

> >> Exactly.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Here we go, spend millions and pass onto the consumer to save the
> >consumer a couple of gallons of gasoline every year.
>
> File your complaint with Obama.

Won't get there before he's gone.

[J. Clarke]

In article <cfe219e3-fffb-4c22-b101-
c4583b...@googlegroups.com>, russellseaton1
@yahoo.com says...

The Japanese made a cult of quality.

The Chinese and Taiwanese not so much. They can
make stuff as good as any Japanese or American
company. The key word is _can_. The trouble is
that they'll make the cheapest thing that meets
the letter of the contract, so it's up to the
purchaser to specify exactly what they are to
make in sufficient detail that they meet the
required quality standards.

Sawstop doesn't pretend that their saws are
American made. That doesn't mean that they are
poorly made or of low quality--Gass is an
aggressive lawyer by training and experience so
it's a fair bet that the contracts are airtight.
Of course one can hope that he spends the rest
of his life in a Chinese court trying to
convince them to get his supplier to take the
fall for some famous pianist or some such
cutting his finger off (not that I wish ill on
pianists, just on Gass).

[J. Clarke]

In article <4b1f4437-036f-4dac-91ca-3970e01de917
@googlegroups.com>, russell...@yahoo.com
says...

Just about all Intel or AMD based computers are
you know, including HP, Apple, and formerly IBM.

The machine I'm using now most people would
consider to be fairly high end--all Chinese
except the CPU and chipset which were made in a
US fab and then packaged somewhere offshore.

High end TV sets these days are typically
Japanese or Korean although they may be screwed
together in China.

[k...@notreal.com]

Obama's CAFE standards may not be around long, either.

[k...@notreal.com]

I was going to ask if any are Japanese anymore but I guess Sony is
still around. The other name brands are all Korean.

[Leon]

Panasonic...Power tool and probably some TV's, at least in the last few
years.