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Beginners Syndrome
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Bill
Nov 19, 2015, 11:20:27 PM11/19/15
to
I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
Bill
recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
Bill
Leon
Nov 20, 2015, 12:20:23 AM11/20/15
to
Keith Nuttle
Nov 20, 2015, 8:04:00 AM11/20/15
to
but buying materials is another.
When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
wood, finish, handles, etc. He then see something similar for the same
price at a local store.
His choice is, buy the similar item, or try to build it himself.
Because he is unsure of his skill, he is most likely to buy the similar
item, rather the messing up it up and have a couple of hundred dollars
worth of expensive firewood, or an unfinished piece of furniture sitting
in his garage forever and still buying the similar piece.
I have been there done that.
John McCoy
Nov 20, 2015, 9:36:29 AM11/20/15
to
Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:n2n5np$leg$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
> I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one
> thing, but buying materials is another.
>
> When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
> the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
> wood, finish, handles, etc.
That is certainly a big part of it in our hobby, maybe
not so much so in others.
But it's definately true for a beginner in woodworking,
not only because the lumber, etc, is expensive, but that
being a beginner he's likely not even aware that rough
lumber exists, let alone has the tools to make boards of
it. Also, the guys with more experience (not necessarily
more skill) are likely to stuff stashed - the lumber left
over from a project, the dozen hinges bought for pennies
in a closeout sale, the screws or sandpaper or whatever
bought in bulk-pack because it'll get used eventually.
Being cost-efficient is a skill, just like using the
tools.
John
news:n2n5np$leg$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
> I think there is another factor to consider. Buying tools is one
> thing, but buying materials is another.
>
> When a person sees this piece of furniture he like, he goes out to buy
> the materials. He finds the materials is a couple of hundred dollars.
> wood, finish, handles, etc.
not so much so in others.
But it's definately true for a beginner in woodworking,
not only because the lumber, etc, is expensive, but that
being a beginner he's likely not even aware that rough
lumber exists, let alone has the tools to make boards of
it. Also, the guys with more experience (not necessarily
more skill) are likely to stuff stashed - the lumber left
over from a project, the dozen hinges bought for pennies
in a closeout sale, the screws or sandpaper or whatever
bought in bulk-pack because it'll get used eventually.
Being cost-efficient is a skill, just like using the
tools.
John
Leon
Nov 20, 2015, 9:53:19 AM11/20/15
to
common 2x4, 2x6, 1x8 pine. CHEAP! I did mill the 2x's to have square
corners.
Once I got better I moved up to the hard woods about 2 years later.
We still actually have a small pine shelf unit that I built way back when.
That said I have never seen furniture, that I could buy cheaper than I
could build, that I would want in my house.
Swingman
Nov 20, 2015, 10:31:29 AM11/20/15
to
On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; )
Yep, not just poetic that the initials are also descriptive of its
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; )
manifestation.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
Michael
Nov 20, 2015, 10:47:36 AM11/20/15
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Electric Comet
Nov 20, 2015, 11:11:48 AM11/20/15
to
On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 23:19:14 -0500
Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net> wrote:
> say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
> lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
> chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
they described some symptoms but not the real problem
Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net> wrote:
> say something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a
> lot of books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood
> chips. I haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a
the real problem is fear of making mistakes and it is the thing that
prevents a lot of people partaking in a lot of different endeavors
definitely not limited to working with wood
Unknown
Nov 20, 2015, 12:23:10 PM11/20/15
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Electric Comet <electri...@mail.invalid> wrote in news:n2ngjg$dns$1
@dont-email.me:
My favorite concept in building model railroads is that of the "chainsaw
layout." It's a model railroad that you build with no other purpose than
to be a learning experience. Go, screw up, make mistakes. Make ugly
holes in the table if that's what it takes.
When you get to the point you've learned what you need to, take a
chainsaw to it and cut it out. Start fresh.
You can apply that concept to just about anything. I do it often,
sometimes I call it "iteration 1" and repeat the process 3-4 times until
I have something I'm happy with.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
@dont-email.me:
layout." It's a model railroad that you build with no other purpose than
to be a learning experience. Go, screw up, make mistakes. Make ugly
holes in the table if that's what it takes.
When you get to the point you've learned what you need to, take a
chainsaw to it and cut it out. Start fresh.
You can apply that concept to just about anything. I do it often,
sometimes I call it "iteration 1" and repeat the process 3-4 times until
I have something I'm happy with.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 12:26:39 PM11/20/15
to
Whenever I'd get a new tool (lathe!) I would get books and read up on
techniques and safety, etc. There's a healthy amount to it, but yes,
one can get immersed in reading and learning about it so much that they
never end up doing it.
Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)
After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book or
website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's often
either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these "wrong"
ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by simply doing it
instead of reading about it.
Nothing wrong with learning by reading/watching. But learning by doing
seems to be a much more fruitful and enjoyable endeavor.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
nailsh...@aol.com
Nov 20, 2015, 12:56:40 PM11/20/15
to
Well... I think we all have things we intend to do, and just don't get around to doing them. For many, buy the accoutrements is the most fun, learning to use them, not so much.
I think too, how long it took me to develop fluency with the tools I use all the time, and honestly, to use them well took years. So I sympathize with the guy that dreams of being a cabinet builder, gets inspired by watching Krenov video, looks at Karl or Leon's work, or looks at a magazine and says to himself "hey, I think I could do that". Sadly, they don't understand that it isn't the tools that make the craftsman, but the years spent using them to gain proficiency.
Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a coffee table or a night stand once a year. Sometimes a keepsake box for good measure. Second, I am surprised by the industrious few that do great work with very inexpensive tools and at that, damn few of them. Hand me down saws used with homemade guides, chisels that need to be sharpened every 20 minutes of use, no pneumatic guns (not even a brad nailer), just a few clamps, no drill/driver, etc., and yet they have a ball. And as mentioned, some really turn out some nice work. Their only downfall is that it takes them months of their spare time to do what it takes a pro to do in a day.
I think is like the guy that likes to play golf that reads a ton of magazines, puts thousands into clubs, cleats, gloves, and occasional lesson, balls, etc., but only plays once a month. Never goes to the driving range, but thinks he can learn by simply playing more often.
No matter what it is, when you are doing anything that requires processes of some sort, motor skills of some sort, and the confidence to use both of those skills, you don't learn without a lot of perseverance and practice. I know a lot of folks that have the money and the desire to do certain things, but as one of my amigos says, "then life gets in the way" and they never get to do the things they want.
But they can still read that magazine while sitting on the hopper first thing in the morning and keep their dreams alive.
Robert
I think too, how long it took me to develop fluency with the tools I use all the time, and honestly, to use them well took years. So I sympathize with the guy that dreams of being a cabinet builder, gets inspired by watching Krenov video, looks at Karl or Leon's work, or looks at a magazine and says to himself "hey, I think I could do that". Sadly, they don't understand that it isn't the tools that make the craftsman, but the years spent using them to gain proficiency.
Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a coffee table or a night stand once a year. Sometimes a keepsake box for good measure. Second, I am surprised by the industrious few that do great work with very inexpensive tools and at that, damn few of them. Hand me down saws used with homemade guides, chisels that need to be sharpened every 20 minutes of use, no pneumatic guns (not even a brad nailer), just a few clamps, no drill/driver, etc., and yet they have a ball. And as mentioned, some really turn out some nice work. Their only downfall is that it takes them months of their spare time to do what it takes a pro to do in a day.
I think is like the guy that likes to play golf that reads a ton of magazines, puts thousands into clubs, cleats, gloves, and occasional lesson, balls, etc., but only plays once a month. Never goes to the driving range, but thinks he can learn by simply playing more often.
No matter what it is, when you are doing anything that requires processes of some sort, motor skills of some sort, and the confidence to use both of those skills, you don't learn without a lot of perseverance and practice. I know a lot of folks that have the money and the desire to do certain things, but as one of my amigos says, "then life gets in the way" and they never get to do the things they want.
But they can still read that magazine while sitting on the hopper first thing in the morning and keep their dreams alive.
Robert
Bill
Nov 20, 2015, 1:01:17 PM11/20/15
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the "lesson" does not really increase with the size of the piece. I am
being systematic about choosing my lessons. Hopefully, I'll create my
second BBQ grill handle soon, this time using my (auction found, Stanley
#51) spokeshave. I need to sharpen it first (small hurdle). Yes, the
first handle I made, designed much like the original one, that it
replaced, only worked right for a year, but it is/was not an expensive
piece of firewood. And, I've since figured out a way to do better than
the original, and my "duplicate". I will be adding a "set screw" (as
the manufacturer should have used)! Hopefully, once this admittedly-tiny
and cheap project is complete, I'll have some confidence with a
spokeshave! Besides that, it sounds "fun"! FWIW, vegetable oil finish
worked fine.
Bill
Bill
Nov 20, 2015, 1:08:31 PM11/20/15
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as much as "fear of the unknown". Who knows, "avoiding the unknown" may
be part of human nature? Then we read to make it "less unknown"? To a
point, knowing what we're up against is a good thing.
Bill
Keith Nuttle
Nov 20, 2015, 1:14:32 PM11/20/15
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practical experience think the world should run as it says in the book
and the way academia thinks it should.
When they are forced into practical situations, they are not only
useless, but can become dangerous to others when trying to make the
practical world comply to the books and academia's ideas.
We have many examples of these people trying to run things in the US today.
Scott Lurndal
Nov 20, 2015, 1:22:51 PM11/20/15
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-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> writes:
>
>Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
>them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
>real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
>grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
>anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
>School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)
That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
>
>Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
>them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
>real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
>grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
>anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
>School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)
not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
as well as teach.
In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
alike.
Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.
dadiOH
Nov 20, 2015, 1:27:38 PM11/20/15
to
When I was young and in the Navy, my camera spent most of its time in pawn
shops. Somewhere around my freshman year in college I started being more
frugal.
Now - 60 years later - I save bits and pieces of wood...some offcuts, some
knots cut out (I resaw the latter and make pulls from them, lots of swirly
grain). At the moment I am making drawer dividers, all from "scrap".
I also glue up small pieces to make bigger ones. All our closet hanging
rods are made that way from butternut offcuts from when I made all our
passage doors.
I not only enjoy saving the $$, I enjoy finding a use for them.
dadiOH
Nov 20, 2015, 1:29:23 PM11/20/15
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Swingman
Nov 20, 2015, 1:35:49 PM11/20/15
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On 11/20/2015 11:56 AM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
> Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a coffee table or a night stand once a year.
Leon might remember this:
> Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a coffee table or a night stand once a year.
Years back helped a dear friend sell off her ex's equipment out of his
air conditioned, 3600 sf shop, after the divorce.
A shop loaded with every large tool (high dollar, 3ph commercial grade
tools/machinery, too big for any shop I've ever owned), and every hand
tool that could be bought from Rockler, WoodCraft and LV; a dust
collector that would suffice for a lumber yard, a forklift, a spray
booth larger than my current shop, and office space bigger than the
ground floor in my home, among other things.
And it was well documented that the ONLY, and I mean ONLY, thing ever
made with those tools were a half dozen pens put together with blanks
from Rockler.
All the equipment was new, and, except for the small lathe used for the
pens, had never been used when it was sold.
And no, I availed myself of none of it, except for some expendables ...
simply refused to profit in any way whatsoever from our good friend's
misfortune.
But, I do occasionally dream about what I could have done with all that
space and all those tools. Oh well ...
Que sera, sera ...
Swingman
Nov 20, 2015, 1:42:08 PM11/20/15
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On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book or
> website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's often
> either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these "wrong"
> ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by simply doing it
> instead of reading about it.
Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book or
> website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's often
> either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these "wrong"
> ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by simply doing it
> instead of reading about it.
magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and bath
space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should be
a criminal offense to have published it.
-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 2:08:12 PM11/20/15
to
It wasn't a blanket statement concerning all college professors. If you
notice, I wrote "the tenured professors where I used to work" which is a
pretty narrow focus. And even then any reasonable person could assume i
was talking about some and not all.
> Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.
>
plenty of " real-world knowledge" from working in academia for 15 years
which is solely what I based my opinion on.
John McCoy
Nov 20, 2015, 2:16:58 PM11/20/15
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"dadiOH" <dad...@invalid.com> wrote in news:n2nolj$i55$1...@dont-email.me:
> The only way to learn and become better is to make mistakes.
There's much truth to that - but if you make a mistake,
don't understand how it happened, how to fix it, and how
to avoid making the mistake next time, then you're not
learning, you're just stuck.
Places like this newsgroup are a good way to avoid that.
John
> The only way to learn and become better is to make mistakes.
don't understand how it happened, how to fix it, and how
to avoid making the mistake next time, then you're not
learning, you're just stuck.
Places like this newsgroup are a good way to avoid that.
John
-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 2:17:05 PM11/20/15
to
On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
>> or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
>> often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
>> "wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
>> simply doing it instead of reading about it.
>
> Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
> magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
> net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
> bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
>
> Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
> be a criminal offense to have published it.
>
There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
>> or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
>> often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
>> "wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
>> simply doing it instead of reading about it.
>
> Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
> magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
> net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
> bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
>
> Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
> be a criminal offense to have published it.
>
instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0
Greg Guarino
Nov 20, 2015, 3:08:29 PM11/20/15
to
On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
>>> or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
>>> often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
>>> "wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
>>> simply doing it instead of reading about it.
>>
>> Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
>> magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
>> net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
>> bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
>>
>> Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
>> be a criminal offense to have published it.
>>
>
> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
>
> Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0
>
>
It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.
> On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
>>> or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
>>> often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
>>> "wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
>>> simply doing it instead of reading about it.
>>
>> Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
>> magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
>> net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
>> bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
>>
>> Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
>> be a criminal offense to have published it.
>>
>
> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
>
> Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0
>
>
Bill
Nov 20, 2015, 3:13:10 PM11/20/15
to
was somehow "wrong".
I thought he "talked too much"!
Sonny
Nov 20, 2015, 3:22:17 PM11/20/15
to
On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 2:13:10 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:
> It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
> was somehow "wrong".
> I thought he "talked too much"!
Did you mean: I thought he talked "one two three one two" much.
> It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
> was somehow "wrong".
> I thought he "talked too much"!
Greg Guarino
Nov 20, 2015, 3:32:48 PM11/20/15
to
that practically every pop song is in- but *counting* to five instead,
running over into the next measure. Then it went completely off the
rails. He was playing in something like the square root of 7 over Pi.
I almost didn't survive the video that YouTube put up as a natural segue
from that one: "Expert Village Fails". I could scarcely breathe it was
so hilarious.
My favorites were the drum instructor and the very last guy, who was
somehow trying to show us how to build a recording studio. I couldn't
figure out what part of recording studio building he was trying to show
us, but he managed to squeeze in a spectacular number of errors using
just a cinder block, a drill, anchors, furring strips and glue.
Greg Guarino
Nov 20, 2015, 3:33:22 PM11/20/15
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-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 4:19:05 PM11/20/15
to
per measure. Most modern music is in 4/4 time, four beat per measure,
which it is commonly referred to as.... wait for it.... "common time"
designated my a C in place of a fractional 4/4 at the head of a bar of
sheet music. Probably the most famous 5/4 song is "Take Five" by Dave
Brubeck. Another pop song that everyone knows is the theme song from
Mission Impossible. These are both examples of a 5/4 song that sound
like odd time. They sound natural and "danceable" to the average
listener. Great modern composers like Sting make odd time songs like
these the fact that they are in odd time doesn't even enter one's mind,
until one tries to clap along. :-)
Hearing great odd time songs that flow so easily and groove so
intrinsically can often cruelly lead a musician into thinking they are
easy to play and easy to create.
Which leads us to the guy in this video. He thought it was easy and
it's so deceptive that it fooled him even while he was attempting to
play it. :-) The whole deal with the video, the funny part, is that
he's playing what he *thinks* is a 5/4 groove, but he's playing it in
4/4 time and he can't seem to grasp that fact. It's akin to laying out
studs on a wall on the half meter (19.2") marks on your tape measure
instead of the 16" marks. You may have laid out 7 studs for an 8'
plate, but that last stud is going to end up on the next 8 footer.
Basically when this 'expert' is playing his "5/4 groove" he's playing it
in 4/4 time, but keeps messing up his counting. He keeps trying to
count to 5, but his pattern repeats after beat 4. You can hear when his
brain finally stops fighting his hands and he starts counting "2-3-4-5,
2-3-4-5, 2-3-4-5." His brain thinks, "Hey I got it now, I'm playing in
5 because my count is getting to 5 every time." :-D
-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 4:21:19 PM11/20/15
to
Reminds me of the old joke about counting in 3/4 time.
"One, two, threefour, one, two, threefour."
It's better when you hear it. :-)
John McCoy
Nov 20, 2015, 4:53:20 PM11/20/15
to
-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote in news:n2nrf2$u6e$1...@dont-email.me:
> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
What a weird website.
"How to prepare your pet for rain"
"What panties are best for a small butt"
"How to draw bats"
These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
be asked...
John
> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
"How to prepare your pet for rain"
"What panties are best for a small butt"
"How to draw bats"
These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
be asked...
John
-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 4:56:35 PM11/20/15
to
Unknown
Nov 20, 2015, 5:55:05 PM11/20/15
to
"dadiOH" <dad...@invalid.com> wrote in news:n2noib$hpr$1...@dont-email.me:
>
> Yep, and it - AKA frugality - can be learned.
>
> When I was young and in the Navy, my camera spent most of its time in
> pawn shops. Somewhere around my freshman year in college I started
> being more frugal.
>
> Now - 60 years later - I save bits and pieces of wood...some offcuts,
> some knots cut out (I resaw the latter and make pulls from them, lots
> of swirly grain). At the moment I am making drawer dividers, all from
> "scrap".
>
> I also glue up small pieces to make bigger ones. All our closet
> hanging rods are made that way from butternut offcuts from when I made
> all our passage doors.
>
> I not only enjoy saving the $$, I enjoy finding a use for them.
>
>
I made a habit of building entire high school shop projects out of the
off-cuts and scraps saved from other's projects. First day of building,
I'd be the one in the classroom, piece of paper on the desk finalizing
(or starting ;-)) my plans... and generally avoiding the material
gathering rush.
It's harder to do that now, despite all the variety of pieces I have I
never seem to have the one I want. Things get complicated when you get
beyond 1x12 pine boards.
>
> Yep, and it - AKA frugality - can be learned.
>
> When I was young and in the Navy, my camera spent most of its time in
> pawn shops. Somewhere around my freshman year in college I started
> being more frugal.
>
> Now - 60 years later - I save bits and pieces of wood...some offcuts,
> some knots cut out (I resaw the latter and make pulls from them, lots
> of swirly grain). At the moment I am making drawer dividers, all from
> "scrap".
>
> I also glue up small pieces to make bigger ones. All our closet
> hanging rods are made that way from butternut offcuts from when I made
> all our passage doors.
>
> I not only enjoy saving the $$, I enjoy finding a use for them.
>
>
off-cuts and scraps saved from other's projects. First day of building,
I'd be the one in the classroom, piece of paper on the desk finalizing
(or starting ;-)) my plans... and generally avoiding the material
gathering rush.
It's harder to do that now, despite all the variety of pieces I have I
never seem to have the one I want. Things get complicated when you get
beyond 1x12 pine boards.
Unknown
Nov 20, 2015, 6:06:02 PM11/20/15
to
John McCoy <igo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:XnsA558ABC88E1...@213.239.209.88:
>
> What a weird website.
>
> "How to prepare your pet for rain"
It's important to prepare your fish for rain. Go to the local
party/drinks store and buy some little umbrellas for drinks. The fish
love those, and it will keep them from getting wet.
> "What panties are best for a small butt"
Take your boyfriend along and ask his opinion. He'll make sure you look
awesome, so long as he doesn't trip over his tongue.
> "How to draw bats"
It's like drawing straws, only you pick up bats instead.
> These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
> be asked...
>
> John
Do I qualify as an expert?
news:XnsA558ABC88E1...@213.239.209.88:
>
> What a weird website.
>
> "How to prepare your pet for rain"
party/drinks store and buy some little umbrellas for drinks. The fish
love those, and it will keep them from getting wet.
> "What panties are best for a small butt"
awesome, so long as he doesn't trip over his tongue.
> "How to draw bats"
It's like drawing straws, only you pick up bats instead.
> These mostly seem to be questions that don't need to
> be asked...
>
> John
woodchucker
Nov 20, 2015, 6:39:53 PM11/20/15
to
craftsman level :-)
--
Jeff
woodchucker
Nov 20, 2015, 6:57:19 PM11/20/15
to
professor, who was a phd, a head of the engineering dept, and he had
never worked in the private sector, only for the university. No I won't
mention which Univ. He was good, smart, had to get grants to keep the
program going. He did some neat stuff, but He never worked outside of
the university. He's retired .. He had to have the best of everything,
but did not put the time into practicing. He jumped from thing to
thing, because he never mastered the skills required for any of the
disciplines. He thought it was the equipment that would make it better.
I cared less about the equip, and concentrated on flying, strategy,
and learning the ropes.
I also worked with 2 professors in a finance company. They did work for
the company. Their code sucked, and their designs sucked. They were not
practical.
I also worked in the pharma research area (I'm IT) , where some of the
phd's needed assistants to prevent them from getting lost, or for other
basic reasons.
Yes it does happen. Some of the least educated can be the most
practical, or self sufficient. But there are real smart guys who are
also very down to earth. The problem is there are more that are not well
grounded.
--
Jeff
Leon
Nov 20, 2015, 7:46:05 PM11/20/15
to
On 11/20/2015 12:35 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/20/2015 11:56 AM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
>> Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am
>> surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many
>> folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a
>> coffee table or a night stand once a year.
>
> Leon might remember this:
>
> Years back helped a dear friend sell off her ex's equipment out of his
> air conditioned, 3600 sf shop, after the divorce.
Snip
> On 11/20/2015 11:56 AM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
>> Over the last 40 years of doing all manner of wood working, I am
>> surprised at a couple of things with wood workers. First, how many
>> folks have thousands of dollars invested in shop tools, only to make a
>> coffee table or a night stand once a year.
>
> Leon might remember this:
>
> Years back helped a dear friend sell off her ex's equipment out of his
> air conditioned, 3600 sf shop, after the divorce.
Yes I remember well.
Leon
Nov 20, 2015, 7:47:33 PM11/20/15
to
mistakes because they continue to happen. :~)
Leon
Nov 20, 2015, 7:53:28 PM11/20/15
to
Leon
Nov 20, 2015, 8:16:46 PM11/20/15
to
On 11/19/2015 10:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill
And just to add a bit more.
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill
Tools, not the ones you use to cut wood, the ones you use to design with.
I used tp build furniture long before I got my first computer and it
took me forever to build something.
It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
And until Sketchup I was not terribly fast even using AutoCAD LT.
I suspect that Sketchup is as revolutionary to wood workers as the
SawStop and Festool Domino...
If you are not using that program yet you should be.
-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 8:29:14 PM11/20/15
to
Swingman
Nov 20, 2015, 8:48:07 PM11/20/15
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 20, 2015, 9:01:17 PM11/20/15
to
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:39:49 -0500, woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:
The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.
wrote:
learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
doesn't make mistakes.
Al Lewis
Nov 20, 2015, 9:18:58 PM11/20/15
to
On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 8:20:27 PM UTC-8, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> that it's common enough phenomenon that he thought he should say
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome". He's wrote
> something about it. Apparently it's characterized by reading a lot of
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> books and buying a lot of tools, and not making so many wood chips. I
> haven't bought "that" many tools, but I can still identify a little with
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill
hah, just wait until you start getting welding or metal machining, that's a black hole you never come out of.
> the poor suckers he's talking about. So instead of hovering over the new
> Marc Adams (School of Woodworking) catalog, that I just received, like I
> usually do (they are rather out of my budget anyway), I scanned it
> more quickly without hovering, determined to get my shop in order : ).
>
> It has started to occur to me just how much stuff is sold to people, in
> various hobbies or pastimes, that might similarly suffer from "Beginners
> Syndrome". Just regard this as a PSA message. You might possibly know
> someone suffering from BS.... ; ) Toss them a hammer and a nail and
> ask them to make the knife--and to get on with it! When one has work
> that takes all that you'll give it (a feeble excuse!), it's all too easy
> to fall into the BS trap! I think I need to learn how to cut a
> pizza...into 7 slices... ahhhh!! Maybe 6 slices...okay.
>
> Bill
been, there, hell, still there now.
Al
-MIKE-
Nov 20, 2015, 9:41:23 PM11/20/15
to
On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
> doesn't make mistakes.
>
Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
> doesn't make mistakes.
>
it home.
I'm stealing that.
John McCoy
Nov 20, 2015, 10:01:49 PM11/20/15
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:daKdnTA0cspmWNLL...@giganews.com:
> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
John
news:daKdnTA0cspmWNLL...@giganews.com:
> It really helps prevent many mistakes if you have a scale drawing
> instead of a picture in your head. ;~)
dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because
I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing
(I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time
ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all
the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.
John
Unknown
Nov 20, 2015, 10:11:43 PM11/20/15
to
woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:FM6dnRuxKcrGLtLL...@ptd.net:
> I happend to fly model airplanes (he was a team member) with a
> professor, who was a phd, a head of the engineering dept, and he had
> never worked in the private sector, only for the university. No I
> won't mention which Univ. He was good, smart, had to get grants to
> keep the program going. He did some neat stuff, but He never worked
> outside of the university. He's retired .. He had to have the best of
> everything, but did not put the time into practicing. He jumped from
> thing to thing, because he never mastered the skills required for any
> of the disciplines. He thought it was the equipment that would make
> it better.
> I cared less about the equip, and concentrated on flying, strategy,
> and learning the ropes.
>
> I also worked with 2 professors in a finance company. They did work
> for the company. Their code sucked, and their designs sucked. They
> were not practical.
>
> I also worked in the pharma research area (I'm IT) , where some of the
> phd's needed assistants to prevent them from getting lost, or for
> other basic reasons.
>
> Yes it does happen. Some of the least educated can be the most
> practical, or self sufficient. But there are real smart guys who are
> also very down to earth. The problem is there are more that are not
> well grounded.
>
>
That's why I say formal education is not the path to true intelligence,
merely one of the steps along the way.
I also believe that after a certain point, formal education holds you
back.
news:FM6dnRuxKcrGLtLL...@ptd.net:
> I happend to fly model airplanes (he was a team member) with a
> professor, who was a phd, a head of the engineering dept, and he had
> never worked in the private sector, only for the university. No I
> won't mention which Univ. He was good, smart, had to get grants to
> keep the program going. He did some neat stuff, but He never worked
> outside of the university. He's retired .. He had to have the best of
> everything, but did not put the time into practicing. He jumped from
> thing to thing, because he never mastered the skills required for any
> of the disciplines. He thought it was the equipment that would make
> it better.
> I cared less about the equip, and concentrated on flying, strategy,
> and learning the ropes.
>
> I also worked with 2 professors in a finance company. They did work
> for the company. Their code sucked, and their designs sucked. They
> were not practical.
>
> I also worked in the pharma research area (I'm IT) , where some of the
> phd's needed assistants to prevent them from getting lost, or for
> other basic reasons.
>
> Yes it does happen. Some of the least educated can be the most
> practical, or self sufficient. But there are real smart guys who are
> also very down to earth. The problem is there are more that are not
> well grounded.
>
>
merely one of the steps along the way.
I also believe that after a certain point, formal education holds you
back.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 20, 2015, 10:52:23 PM11/20/15
to
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:41:20 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:
>On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>> doesn't make mistakes.
>>
>
>Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
>it home.
>
>I'm stealing that.
No need to steal it - I placed it in the public domain a few years
ago.
wrote:
>On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>> doesn't make mistakes.
>>
>
>Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
>it home.
>
>I'm stealing that.
ago.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 20, 2015, 10:53:26 PM11/20/15
to
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:41:20 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:
wrote:
>On 11/20/15 8:01 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>> doesn't make mistakes.
>>
>
>Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
>it home.
>
>I'm stealing that.
Just preface it with "a smart guy I met on the internet said"
>> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>> learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>> doesn't make mistakes.
>>
>
>Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings
>it home.
>
>I'm stealing that.
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 1:15:45 AM11/21/15
to
The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
the dimensions you want.
With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
thoughts.
krw
Nov 21, 2015, 10:46:54 AM11/21/15
to
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:15:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.
wrote:
dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot
of trees.
John McCoy
Nov 21, 2015, 10:47:25 AM11/21/15
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:P7ydndPuRKaRkc3L...@giganews.com:
> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
> school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
> especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
> not necessarily give correct dimensions.
If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right.
There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
tool you use to make it.
> You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
> with the dimensions you want.
If the dimensions add up correctly, then it's doable.
There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the
foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally,
for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every
woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections"
paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings
in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program
to create the drawing.
When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top
view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need
it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure
the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons,
or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't
bother making it to scale.
I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of
poor measuring, not the drawing.
John
news:P7ydndPuRKaRkc3L...@giganews.com:
> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
> school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
> especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
> not necessarily give correct dimensions.
There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
tool you use to make it.
> You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
> with the dimensions you want.
There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the
foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally,
for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every
woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections"
paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings
in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program
to create the drawing.
When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top
view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need
it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure
the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons,
or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't
bother making it to scale.
I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of
poor measuring, not the drawing.
John
Electric Comet
Nov 21, 2015, 10:52:05 AM11/21/15
to
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 18:39:49 -0500
woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> we all make mistakes. When you learn to fix them you have reached the
> craftsman level :-)
with this addition
woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> we all make mistakes. When you learn to fix them you have reached the
> craftsman level :-)
when you learn to fix them so no one can even tell you have reached
craftsman
i have heard an expert is one that has no more mistakes left to make
experts have made them all
Swingman
Nov 21, 2015, 10:53:30 AM11/21/15
to
On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
> the dimensions you want.
> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
> thoughts.
Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
> the dimensions you want.
> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
> thoughts.
seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
available.
Casper
Nov 21, 2015, 11:04:42 AM11/21/15
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca was heard to mutter:
> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>doesn't make mistakes.
A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that
mistake again. But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him
how to avoid the mistake altogether. -Roy H. Williams
> The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man
>learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he
>doesn't make mistakes.
mistake again. But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him
how to avoid the mistake altogether. -Roy H. Williams
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 11:20:26 AM11/21/15
to
On 11/21/2015 9:45 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:P7ydndPuRKaRkc3L...@giganews.com:
>
>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
>> school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
>> especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
>> not necessarily give correct dimensions.
>
> If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right.
> There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
> tool you use to make it.
Well if the drawing is not to scale, the drawing is not right. You did
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:P7ydndPuRKaRkc3L...@giganews.com:
>
>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in
>> school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and
>> especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does
>> not necessarily give correct dimensions.
>
> If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right.
> There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever
> tool you use to make it.
say you did not do true scale. Or do you consider true scale to be full
scale?
>
>> You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable
>> with the dimensions you want.
>
> If the dimensions add up correctly, then it's doable.
program vs. pencil and paper drawing. The advantage to a drawing
program is that it shows 3D at any angle and can show whether the
internal parts fit together correctly. That is not often possible with
a hand drawn drawing, especially if you are not visualizing how the
pieces fit together when you draw it.
Additionally I use a program to import my pieces from a computer drawing
into an optimization program. It is a huge time saver and increases
accuracy dramatically.
>
> There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the
> foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally,
> for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every
> woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections"
> paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings
> in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program
> to create the drawing.
drawing are when they print but they are precisely to "some" scale. The
scale does not matter as long as everything is to the same scale. But if
you are not drawing to scale the drawing can easily be deceiving and
dimensions put in by you may not show a problem. With a drawing program
the dimensions are automatically calculated between the points you
choose and will immediately tell you if the part is the correct size.
If you don't use a CAD or drawing program this is very hard to appreciate.
>
> When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top
> view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need
> it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure
> the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons,
> or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't
> bother making it to scale.
accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in the
drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up what the
dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations can be
entered.
>
> I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of
> poor measuring, not the drawing.
>
> John
>
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 11:29:29 AM11/21/15
to
as it will be built "except" where I put in Domino tenons. Because
those can be accurately placed after the pieces are cut there is no need
to draw them in place, at least the way I do them.
Adding Dominos in a drawing does not change how the pieces will be cut,
let me put that another way. I know exactly what size the Domino is and
when I draw I make an allowance for the room it needs on the component.
Adding Dominos to a drawing along with two mortises for each is very
tedious. Now having said that perhaps Sketchup Pro will more quickly
draw those mortises using the "Solid Tools". You don't get full use of
Solid Tools with the free version.
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 11:41:38 AM11/21/15
to
On 11/21/2015 9:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>> the dimensions you want.
>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>> thoughts.
>
> Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
> seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
> angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
> based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
> available.
>
;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons.
> On 11/21/2015 12:15 AM, Leon wrote:
>> I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school.
>> The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if
>> not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily
>> give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if
>> not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with
>> the dimensions you want.
>> With software you have the ability to have the program double check your
>> thoughts.
>
> Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when
> seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different
> angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer
> based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably
> available.
>
Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably
glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting
that turned me off on drafting.
Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I
got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like
program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines
were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not
Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now.
Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke
represented.
Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I
finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time.
Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you
mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project
will look.
John McCoy
Nov 21, 2015, 11:57:25 AM11/21/15
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:SoqdnRus4bNVBM3L...@giganews.com:
> Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
> accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
> measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
> the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
> what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
> can be entered.
I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing,
and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
size, so they can take accurate measurements).
I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
results of that drawing determine the measurements.
I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
worry about the exactness of the drawing.
John
news:SoqdnRus4bNVBM3L...@giganews.com:
> Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
> accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
> measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
> the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
> what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
> can be entered.
and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
size, so they can take accurate measurements).
I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
results of that drawing determine the measurements.
I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
worry about the exactness of the drawing.
John
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 1:25:17 PM11/21/15
to
On 11/21/2015 10:55 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:SoqdnRus4bNVBM3L...@giganews.com:
>
>> Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
>> accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
>> measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
>> the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
>> what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
>> can be entered.
>
> I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing,
> and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
> drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
> which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
> size, so they can take accurate measurements).
Screw boat builders. ;~) Think Empire state building and bigger.
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:SoqdnRus4bNVBM3L...@giganews.com:
>
>> Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an
>> accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can
>> measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in
>> the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up
>> what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations
>> can be entered.
>
> I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing,
> and I'm not intending to take measurements off the
> drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do,
> which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full
> size, so they can take accurate measurements).
FWIW in my formal drafting classes, mechanical and architectural the
drawings had damn well better measure to scale to the dimensions drawn.
If you get buy with sketches and that works for you that is great. I'll
dare say that all drawings for building on a professional level are
drawn to scale.
>
> I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
> results of that drawing determine the measurements.
> I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
> worry about the exactness of the drawing.
>
> John
>
will not. That is OK.
Bill
Nov 21, 2015, 1:39:32 PM11/21/15
to
Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
(as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
that's a different discussion).
Bill
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 21, 2015, 3:14:36 PM11/21/15
to
as accurate a job - and for the older ones of us it can even be done
more quickly.
dadiOH
Nov 21, 2015, 3:23:43 PM11/21/15
to
John McCoy wrote:
> I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
> results of that drawing determine the measurements.
> I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
> worry about the exactness of the drawing.
I pretty much get what you are saying as I did the same thing for
> I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the
> results of that drawing determine the measurements.
> I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't
> worry about the exactness of the drawing.
years...make a rough sketch, add dimensions. If, eg, I wanted to make a box
24" x 10" x 3" it made no difference if the long side was 8x the shortest in
my sketch, what counted were the dimensions.
I still do that sometimes but I also use SketchUp. It does, of course, give
me an accurate drawing but just as importantly (to me, at least) is the fact
that it gives me an accurate idea of how things are going to look. It also
lets me easily play with variations or modify. And, using my drawing, I can
do a material takeoff and and a cutting list. It's handy :)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 21, 2015, 4:25:44 PM11/21/15
to
J. Clarke
Nov 21, 2015, 4:29:01 PM11/21/15
to
In article <XxJ3y.139405$gK.8...@fx26.iad>, sc...@slp53.sl.home says...
>
> -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> writes:
>
> >
> >Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
> >them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
> >real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
> >grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
> >anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
> >School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)
>
> That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
> not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
> as well as teach.
>
> In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
> professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
> alike.
>
> Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.
I learned more engineering in my first month at United Technologies than
I did in four years at Georgia Tech.
Academia has long since gone off in its own direction that has little to
do with life outside of academia.
You haven't seen a new hire with a computer science degree from a highly
regarded university struggling to write a simple program.
>
> -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> writes:
>
> >
> >Reminds me of the tenured professors where I used to work. I called
> >them "professional students," because many of them never had any actual,
> >real world, work experience. They went from high school to college, to
> >grad school, to being a doctoral candidate, to teaching and never did
> >anything else in their lives. (Think: the professor from "Back To
> >School" with Rodney Dangerfield.)
>
> That might possibly be true for some social science professor. It is
> not even close to true for Engineering professors, most of whom do
> as well as teach.
>
> In any case, blanket statement such as you've made regarding 'tenured
> professions' are nonsense, as all schools and all professors are not
> alike.
>
> Getting your real-world knowledge form a comedy film doesn't help.
I learned more engineering in my first month at United Technologies than
I did in four years at Georgia Tech.
Academia has long since gone off in its own direction that has little to
do with life outside of academia.
You haven't seen a new hire with a computer science degree from a highly
regarded university struggling to write a simple program.
J. Clarke
Nov 21, 2015, 4:36:15 PM11/21/15
to
In article <n2nur...@news4.newsguy.com>, BILL_...@whoknows.net
says...
wasn't my idea, my boss got invited to be the "expert" and didn't have
time to do it so he told me to do it. Aero engineering or programming
I'd be fine with--been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Art,
antiques, and jewelry, not a clue, and that's what he had me doing. I
told him I didn't have a clue, he didn't care, then he was surprised
when they figured out that I didn't have a clue and pulled his account.
says...
>
> Greg Guarino wrote:
> > On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
> >>> On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
> >>>> or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
> >>>> often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
> >>>> "wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
> >>>> simply doing it instead of reading about it.
> >>>
> >>> Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
> >>> magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
> >>> net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
> >>> bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
> >>> be a criminal offense to have published it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> >> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> >> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
> >>
> >> Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0
> >>
> >>
> > It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.
>
> It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
> was somehow "wrong".
> I thought he "talked too much"!
I was an "expert" on one of those sites for a while. Didn't want to be,
> Greg Guarino wrote:
> > On 11/20/2015 2:17 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 11/20/15 12:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
> >>> On 11/20/2015 11:26 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>> After a few decades of hands-on experience, I now often see a book
> >>>> or website giving "expert" advice on how to do something and it's
> >>>> often either wrong or very inefficient. I remember learning these
> >>>> "wrong" ways and also remember figuring out the *better ways* by
> >>>> simply doing it instead of reading about it.
> >>>
> >>> Just last night read a couple of articles from kitchen and bath
> >>> magazines (featured on iPad's FlipBoard, so you know it casts a wide
> >>> net) that purport to advise people on remodeling their kitchen and
> >>> bath space, the different types of cabinetry, doors, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Information is so false, off base and far from reality that it should
> >>> be a criminal offense to have published it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> There's a website called "expert village" that purportedly provides
> >> instructions for doing any number of thing provided by "experts" in each
> >> field. I've come to nickname many of them as "expert village idiots."
> >>
> >> Here's an example that I know you will enjoy, Karl!
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK_j2LE07G0
> >>
> >>
> > It's a good thing I wasn't eating soup when I watched that.
>
> It mostly went over my head, but I could tell from the comments that it
> was somehow "wrong".
> I thought he "talked too much"!
wasn't my idea, my boss got invited to be the "expert" and didn't have
time to do it so he told me to do it. Aero engineering or programming
I'd be fine with--been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Art,
antiques, and jewelry, not a clue, and that's what he had me doing. I
told him I didn't have a clue, he didn't care, then he was surprised
when they figured out that I didn't have a clue and pulled his account.
-MIKE-
Nov 21, 2015, 4:36:48 PM11/21/15
to
On 11/21/15 3:31 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> I learned more engineering in my first month at United Technologies than
> I did in four years at Georgia Tech.
>
Either way, if you graduated from GT in engineering, you have my respect.
> I learned more engineering in my first month at United Technologies than
> I did in four years at Georgia Tech.
>
Not exactly a basket weaving school.
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 4:40:48 PM11/21/15
to
I do get paid for the drawings and what I build from them. ;~)
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 4:44:14 PM11/21/15
to
Simple stuff no need. Hundreds of parts with dado's that interlock in
the x,y,z axis I better have detailed drawings to insure the dado's,
rabbet, and half laps get cut correctly and in the right place.
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 4:45:45 PM11/21/15
to
on a project.
G. Ross
Nov 21, 2015, 4:48:26 PM11/21/15
to
then it was SHARP pencil, t-square, triangles, and dividers to take a
measurement off the ruler. For final we had to do it in India ink.
Blueprints were really blue. Those were the days of slide rules with
a carrying case that fastened to your belt. I still have my K&E
drawing set.
--
GW Ross
Why isn't 'phonetically' spelled that
way? --Steven Wright
Leon
Nov 21, 2015, 5:22:39 PM11/21/15
to
rotary desk sharpener. We only used the India ink for the borders. Our
drawings failed if the pencil lines did not shine.
I mentioned that I got a bad taste in my mouth with architectural
drafting. We were graded on the blueprint, not the drawing for our
final grade. The instructor sent a seating chart around to all of us,
we drew lines or scribbled in the spot that represented where we sat.
That was our only practice to see how a blueprint would come out from
our drawings. Luckily I got a 99 on that blueprint but he subtracted 10
points because I did not turn the drawing in on time. The drawing was
in the class room and completed 1 week before it was due. I had been
out of school sick for 4 days. Still got an A. That was in the early 70's.
I still have everything too, except I have not seen the drawing board
for a loooong time. ;!)
OH! I still have my electric eraser too!
Bill
Nov 21, 2015, 6:44:47 PM11/21/15
to
krw
Nov 21, 2015, 7:37:32 PM11/21/15
to
krw
Nov 21, 2015, 7:38:25 PM11/21/15
to
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:45:31 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
Each with half a dozen cuts.
woodchucker
Nov 21, 2015, 8:08:37 PM11/21/15
to
Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.
I have never built to plans. Just my head. I do have rough drawings and
sizes when working on big things, you need to, to avoid material loss.
And also if something requires an operation before another.. I make
those notes, so I don't wind up in a spot without a way to hold, or get
to a feature.
--
Jeff
woodchucker
Nov 21, 2015, 8:13:02 PM11/21/15
to
move the pencil around and it sharpens it? I have one of those. I like
the old style pencils for layouts When I can't see my knife lines, I'll
switch to one of those and put a new point on my pencil.
>
> I mentioned that I got a bad taste in my mouth with architectural
> drafting. We were graded on the blueprint, not the drawing for our
> final grade. The instructor sent a seating chart around to all of us,
> we drew lines or scribbled in the spot that represented where we sat.
> That was our only practice to see how a blueprint would come out from
> our drawings. Luckily I got a 99 on that blueprint but he subtracted 10
> points because I did not turn the drawing in on time. The drawing was
> in the class room and completed 1 week before it was due. I had been
> out of school sick for 4 days. Still got an A. That was in the early
> 70's.
>
> I still have everything too, except I have not seen the drawing board
> for a loooong time. ;!)
>
> OH! I still have my electric eraser too!
>
--
> I mentioned that I got a bad taste in my mouth with architectural
> drafting. We were graded on the blueprint, not the drawing for our
> final grade. The instructor sent a seating chart around to all of us,
> we drew lines or scribbled in the spot that represented where we sat.
> That was our only practice to see how a blueprint would come out from
> our drawings. Luckily I got a 99 on that blueprint but he subtracted 10
> points because I did not turn the drawing in on time. The drawing was
> in the class room and completed 1 week before it was due. I had been
> out of school sick for 4 days. Still got an A. That was in the early
> 70's.
>
> I still have everything too, except I have not seen the drawing board
> for a loooong time. ;!)
>
> OH! I still have my electric eraser too!
>
Jeff
Unknown
Nov 21, 2015, 8:17:58 PM11/21/15
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:X_adnQZFuONAec3L...@giganews.com:
I does sorta work for BS, though. It's a common problem with track plan
dreaming. A curve looks absolutely beautiful on the track plan, then
you build it to scale and find out it's actually 12" radius and you need
an absolute minimum of 18"!
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
news:X_adnQZFuONAec3L...@giganews.com:
dreaming. A curve looks absolutely beautiful on the track plan, then
you build it to scale and find out it's actually 12" radius and you need
an absolute minimum of 18"!
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
Bill
Nov 21, 2015, 8:42:04 PM11/21/15
to
woodchucker wrote:
> On 11/21/2015 1:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
>> the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
>> advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
>> (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
>> the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
>> its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
>> that's a different discussion).
>>
>> Bill
>
> I just built, I had it in my head.
> Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.
The "design phase" we're talking about is designed to keep just
> On 11/21/2015 1:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing
>> the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in
>> advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials
>> (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that
>> the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for
>> its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and
>> that's a different discussion).
>>
>> Bill
>
> I just built, I had it in my head.
> Sometimes I would come up with a new idea while working on it.
that (expensive thing) from occurring!
>
> I have never built to plans. Just my head. I do have rough drawings
> and sizes when working on big things, you need to, to avoid material
> loss.
> And also if something requires an operation before another.. I make
> those notes, so I don't wind up in a spot without a way to hold, or
> get to a feature.
divided it up into 30 numbered parts, so I could keep track of how much
mud I had on each part of the walls, my tape defects, etc. I recall how
thankful I was in the spring when, I resumed my work, that I had my
"list" (because, covered with mud, they all looked the same!)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 21, 2015, 8:52:19 PM11/21/15
to
and CAD??? They did the calculations in their heads, and drew
"diagrams" showing how it was to go together. A lot looked like
leonardo Davinci's drawings 0 dimensioned but not accurately scaled.
krw
Nov 21, 2015, 8:56:18 PM11/21/15
to
On Sat, 21 Nov 2015 20:41:36 -0500, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:
Why didn't you just write the information on the walls? ;-)/2
wrote:
Bill
Nov 21, 2015, 9:04:56 PM11/21/15
to
forget any)--and a paragraph about each one, explaining what each one
was, to be used as evidence against me... (assuming you know how the
song goes...)
krw
Nov 21, 2015, 9:40:26 PM11/21/15
to
for every detail.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 21, 2015, 10:50:00 PM11/21/15
to
ears" was capable of doing all the calculations, and for an old guy
with experience doing things that way, he can do it faster than he
could on a "confuser"
Keith Nuttle
Nov 22, 2015, 8:27:13 AM11/22/15
to
the person he was the 1960's.
PS for the "children" who are reading this we are talking about Arlo Guthrie
Sonny
Nov 22, 2015, 10:06:54 AM11/22/15
to
On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:20:27 PM UTC-6, Bill wrote:
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome".
I typically figure things in my head and use drawings/measurements, in tandom. I generally like curvy constructions, so it's hard to figure, exactly, a curve or matching curves, in my head. I measure for the basics, then when it comes to forming the mirror image curves, I back off, "pass my eye", then proceed to form the matching curves for each side, in essence, winging it and making adjustments, as I go.
Sometimes, my "beginners syndrome" issue is "beginning the project", but more often I suffer from "finishers syndrome".
Sonny
> I was reading Chris Pyes, book, "Woodcarving Materials, ...", Vol. 2,
> recently and he brought up the topic of "Beginners Syndrome".
I typically figure things in my head and use drawings/measurements, in tandom. I generally like curvy constructions, so it's hard to figure, exactly, a curve or matching curves, in my head. I measure for the basics, then when it comes to forming the mirror image curves, I back off, "pass my eye", then proceed to form the matching curves for each side, in essence, winging it and making adjustments, as I go.
Sometimes, my "beginners syndrome" issue is "beginning the project", but more often I suffer from "finishers syndrome".
Sonny
Leon
Nov 22, 2015, 12:24:47 PM11/22/15
to
that is how it was done, me included, before computers. I suspect
calculations were done on paper too.
Leon
Nov 22, 2015, 12:30:23 PM11/22/15
to
every bit as accurate a job.
I think we agree with you now. ;~)
Leon
Nov 22, 2015, 12:32:48 PM11/22/15
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I have one of those. I like
> the old style pencils for layouts When I can't see my knife lines, I'll
> switch to one of those and put a new point on my pencil.
want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
joelj...@aol.com
Nov 22, 2015, 1:28:54 PM11/22/15
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> ... the real problem is fear of making mistakes ....
There are two positive aspects:
1) That's why we have trash cans.
2) Mistakes are part of the learning experience.
Mike Marlow
Nov 22, 2015, 2:12:08 PM11/22/15
to
is a bit pendantic.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 22, 2015, 2:23:48 PM11/22/15
to
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 11:24:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
Some on paper, some on what is used to make paper (scraps of wood)
and some right in the old cranium. I know some old guys that could
give you the cosin of an angle faster than you could enter it on a
keyboard, calculate the number of board feet of limber in a log. or on
a train -car, and lay out a tennon or a doevetail joint with an
engineers square and a compass quicker than you could enter it in
Autocad..Usually without writing anything down other than the final
required numbers.
and some right in the old cranium. I know some old guys that could
give you the cosin of an angle faster than you could enter it on a
keyboard, calculate the number of board feet of limber in a log. or on
a train -car, and lay out a tennon or a doevetail joint with an
engineers square and a compass quicker than you could enter it in
Autocad..Usually without writing anything down other than the final
required numbers.
Leon
Nov 23, 2015, 1:20:03 AM11/23/15
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I really miss drawing ellipses with a bow compass.
Electric Comet
Nov 24, 2015, 5:58:16 PM11/24/15
to
On Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:28:49 -0800 (PST)
"joelj...@aol.com" <joelj...@aol.com> wrote:
> 1) That's why we have trash cans.
i was thinking salvage it or the fireplace
"joelj...@aol.com" <joelj...@aol.com> wrote:
> 1) That's why we have trash cans.
> 2) Mistakes are part of the learning experience.
Unknown
Nov 24, 2015, 10:32:52 PM11/24/15
to
Electric Comet <electri...@mail.invalid> wrote in news:n32ptk$apd$1
@dont-email.me:
Mistakes are only part of the learning experience. Success is a critical
part of the experience as well. In fact, learning is a constant process
of knowledge gathering, knowledge testing and feedback. These three
stages are nicely separated for writing, but can happen at the same time
or not at all or any combination thereof.
My biggest advantage in the shop is that I play dumb: I don't know I
can't do something. I attempt it, and sometimes it works and sometimes
it doesn't.
@dont-email.me:
part of the experience as well. In fact, learning is a constant process
of knowledge gathering, knowledge testing and feedback. These three
stages are nicely separated for writing, but can happen at the same time
or not at all or any combination thereof.
My biggest advantage in the shop is that I play dumb: I don't know I
can't do something. I attempt it, and sometimes it works and sometimes
it doesn't.
Jack
Nov 25, 2015, 9:21:16 AM11/25/15
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On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:
> I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
> want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
> I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
> want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes with a box
of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really nice for the shop.
http://www.rockler.com/cabinetmakers-pencil-set
Their shop apron is decent as well, for around $20, on sale. If you are
over 6'2 and 280 or so, it won't fit, otherwise, pretty decent apron.
This is the one I like:
http://www.rockler.com/rockler-cross-back-shop-apron
You won't misplace your pencil if it's a really nice one, and you have a
handy place to keep it.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
J. Clarke
Nov 25, 2015, 11:50:06 AM11/25/15
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In article <n34g0a$hog$1...@dont-email.me>, jbst...@comcast.net says...
it is is a standard draftsman's leadholder and a box of leads.
>
> On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> > I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
> > want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
>
> Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
> cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes with a box
> of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really nice for the shop.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/cabinetmakers-pencil-set
That's not a bad price for a leadholder and leads these days. But all
> On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> > I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
> > want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
>
> Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
> cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes with a box
> of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really nice for the shop.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/cabinetmakers-pencil-set
it is is a standard draftsman's leadholder and a box of leads.
Leon
Nov 25, 2015, 1:14:45 PM11/25/15
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On 11/25/2015 8:21 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
>> want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
>
> Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
> cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes with a box
> of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really nice for the shop.
That would be a long held habit I would have to break. From my school
> On 11/22/2015 12:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I still use a regular pencil with wooden pencil in the shop, I don't
>> want to misplace a decent pencil. ;~)
>
> Buy a good apron to hold your pencil. I recommend a Rockler
> cabinetmakers Mechanical Pencil for around 10 bucks. It comes with a box
> of thick and strong 2mm lead, and a sharpener. Really nice for the shop.
drafting days the pencil was always laid down to prevent point breakage.
We probably resharpened/fine tuned our drafting pencils 40~50 times
per class.
When I use an apron, seldom in the summer because of the heat, I use
this one.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=70774&cat=1,43413,45989
krw
Nov 25, 2015, 1:37:30 PM11/25/15
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the house there is always at least one within sight. ;-)
Electric Comet
Nov 25, 2015, 1:58:24 PM11/25/15
to
On 25 Nov 2015 03:32:49 GMT
even if the mistakes are minor
the fear of making them is the thing that i see happen to a lot of people
they have high expectations
they screw up
they give up
the expectations should be reset and try it again
as you say it is continual process
humor and sometimes swearing helps too
speaking of expectations i got a book of wood art and i want to make
all of them
but my expectations are that i might make only one of them
there is a wooden mat that has caught my attention
god help me
my expectations are low on reproducing it exactly but i will be satisfied
to have a usable facsimile
and it may only be placemat size
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
> Mistakes are only part of the learning experience. Success is a
they are a big part
> Mistakes are only part of the learning experience. Success is a
even if the mistakes are minor
the fear of making them is the thing that i see happen to a lot of people
they have high expectations
they screw up
they give up
the expectations should be reset and try it again
as you say it is continual process
humor and sometimes swearing helps too
speaking of expectations i got a book of wood art and i want to make
all of them
but my expectations are that i might make only one of them
there is a wooden mat that has caught my attention
god help me
my expectations are low on reproducing it exactly but i will be satisfied
to have a usable facsimile
and it may only be placemat size
dadiOH
Nov 25, 2015, 3:07:47 PM11/25/15
to
Leon wrote:
> When I use an apron, seldom in the summer because of the heat, I use
> this one.
Apron? APRON?? Heh...I just wear old clothes and wipe my hands on them :)
> When I use an apron, seldom in the summer because of the heat, I use
> this one.
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