Why Is Festool Allowed To Fix Its Prices?
Tom Watson
from price fixing.
Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?
Regards,
Tom
Thos.J.Watson - Cabinetmaker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
Nova
In an article by Mike Cox, the Michigan Attorney General, he sates the
following:
"A manufacturer does have a legal right to set a suggested retail price
(a manufacturer's suggested retail price or MSRP). The manufacturer also
has the right to unilaterally terminate a retailer who prices below the
MSRP. Frequently, when prices are identical for a product at every
store, it is because each retailer has decided to adhere to the MSRP. "
http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-34739_17343_18163-44650--,00.html
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
nov...@verizon.net
Andrew Barss
: I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
: from price fixing.
I think price fixing nly occurs when different suppliers of a
product collude to make sure no one undersells, i.e. all the
manufacturers of X decide to not compete with one another.
Any one manufacturer is allowed to set their price at whatever they
want, and I think in this case (see also Lie-Nielsen planes) they
require their distributors to match the MSRP. So, if you are a Festool
distributor and decide to sell for 10% less than Woodcraft,
Festool can drop you as a distributor.
This is all stuff I've gathered -- I'm neither a lwayer nor a
business person, so I may be wrong.
-- Andy Barss
Chris Friesen
> I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
> from price fixing.
It's only price fixing if there is an agreement between the manufacturer
and retailer, or between multiple retailers, or between multiple
manufacturers.
Apparently the fact that Festool can terminate doing business with the
retailer if they don't abide by minimum prices doesn't count as an
"agreement" to sell at the minimum price...not sure how that works.
For what it's worth, Toyota is basically the same around here. No give
on pricing at all.
Chris
Tom Watson
Jack:
When I read the linked article I find the following:
"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."
I don't see how this is not in conflict with what you've quoted,
particularly regarding coercion.
Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
product coercive?
Chris Friesen
> "While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
> the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
> manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."
> Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
> product coercive?
Logically, you might think so. However, I suspect it's not "legally"
coercive, in that there is nothing forcing the retailer to sell at a
given price other than wanting to do business with the supplier.
A supplier can refuse to do business with a retailer for any number of
reasons. The retailer not abiding by MSRP is just one of them.
In a sense, it's no different than offering software under a specific
license. You have the option of either obtaining it under that license,
or not obtaining it at all.
Chris
Nova
The manufacture has terminated the retailer's ability to purchase the
produce at a wholesale/dealer price.
The practice is often used to protect the small retailer and apparently
it is not illegal:
"It is frequently difficult in antitrust enforcement to determine when a
retail price is set based upon a manufacturer's unilateral pricing
policies and when the retail prices are set based upon an illegal
agreement. The basic rule of thumb is: if the manufacturer's decision to
set a suggested retail price and the retailers choice to adhere to that
price are independent decisions, then it is probably not considered
price fixing under the law. But if manufacturers and retailers agree
that a certain price will be charged, the agreement will be considered
illegal."
http://www.artrm.com/retail/msrp/
Lew Hodgett
"Tom Watson" wrote:
>I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
> from price fixing.
>
> Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?
It depends.
If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.
There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.
My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
They maintain a display, but no stock.
All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
Vegas.
OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
market.
As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
HTH
Lew
Mike Marlow
"Tom Watson" <no...@erehwon.com> wrote in message
news:g7ed445g7sfvbq7to...@4ax.com...
>I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
> from price fixing.
>
> Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?
>
Very open ended question. Cannot be answered on it's own merit.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@alltel.net
Leon
> from price fixing.
>
> Don't parts of the Sherman and Fair Trade Acts address this?
Nope! A company can dictate a price but several cannot get together and
predetermine a fixed price to. If all were able to fix their prices there
would be no choice. You have the choice to buy Festool brand or another
brand.
J. Clarke
If Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Ridgid, Craftsman, Bosch,
Milwaukee, Panasonic, Festool, and all the other manufacturers of,
say, circular saws, got together and agreed that they would all sell
their saws for the same price, that would be "price fixing". But each
manufacturer has every right to set a price for the tools that they
manufacture and to do whatever they have to to maintain that price as
long as they don't collude with the other manufacturers.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon
>
> When I read the linked article I find the following:
>
>
> "While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce
> the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the
> manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal."
>
>
> I don't see how this is not in conflict with what you've quoted,
> particularly regarding coercion.
>
> Isn't the threat of terminationg the retailer's ability to sell the
> product coercive?
You have to look at all angles. It is illegal to fix the price but is legal
to suggest a price. Festool suggests that no one drop the price below their
suggested price. If a retailer drops his price below that price, the
manufacturer could raise the retailers cost of the product, eliminate
discounts on stock orders, or any number of different things Unless you
read the actual contract you really don't know what the circumstances are.
Sales people rarely really know what the agreement is. I'd suggest that no
retailer wants to drop his price because that would lower his gross profit.
The retailer could also charge more than suggested and include some other
benefits and that would not be a problem. If the retailer can sell above
the suggested price then the price is not fixed.
GM has been doing this for years with the Saturn.
Personally I like to shop for a bargain but I also feel good about knowing
that I could not have done better after buying from my favorite dealer.
Leon
"Chris Friesen" <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote in message
news:wNqdnSvuFqahW9vV...@posted.sasktel...
Fortunately Toyota gives quite a bit in the Houston area.
Frank Boettcher
wrote:
The combination of a MAP pricing agreement (the dealer gets something
for following the MAP so he agrees follow it) and the marigin that the
dealer can make at the MAP price may be enough to make all pricing the
same.
Frank
Robatoy
I think it is simpler than all that. If the dealer knows he can get
full-pop, why shouldn't he?
If some low-overhead schmuck flogs that same tool on the net, what
incentive is there to the dealer to even display/demo the tool?
But, having said that, the way around all that is the creation of an
'agent'. Not a stocking dealer. A consignment structure where Festool
owns the inventory until it is sold. A few complaints from the
competition, and the supply slows down.
When price fixing runs afoul of the law in these parts, is when it is
done to hurt the competition.
MSRP in the Festool realm, is also the price the DEALER/AGENT knows he
can get. So why discount?
Ken
is in Lebanon, In, also repair is done there.
At least that is the case for Woodcraft.
KK
"Robatoy" <Counte...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:308bd68e-8e26-4a7c...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Frank Boettcher
>
>KK
<moved the top post to the bottom for continuity>
Dealers owning the stock is the norm. Dealers either buy at wholesale
from the manufacturer and are free to sell at any price they want or
they enter into a MAP agreement with the manufacturer and cannot sell,
by contract, lower than the agreed minimum price. They can sell
higher, just not lower. The manufacturer gives them something,
usually some form of cooperative advertising or other support, for the
agreement. I have to believe it does not violate existing antitrust,
it is a common arrangement.
Frank
Rick Samuel
>> For what it's worth, Toyota is basically the same around here. No give
>> on pricing at all.
>
>
> Fortunately Toyota gives quite a bit in the Houston area.
almost 10 %
Leon
"Rick Samuel" <richard...@qatar.tamu.edu> wrote in message
news:g283cg$85l$1...@news.tamu.edu...
I bought a Tundra on July 16 last year, Sticker was around 33k+about 1.4k
for ttl. I drove out for 28k less trade in.
I imagine I could get a better deal today on the same vehicle but probably
not on a car.
Ralph
J. Clarke
Standard Oil was one of the first targets of the Sherman Antitrust Act
you know.
Kate
under no uncertain terms that THAT was what the items would sell for or we
would lose our distributorship.
There are a LOT of companies that do that, more than most people realize.
Kate
"Tom Watson" <no...@erehwon.com> wrote in message
news:fqhd44959r4ebbanh...@4ax.com...
BSRLee
successfully prosecuted for price fixing, and fined several hundred
thousand dollars. Unfortunately this conviction & fine seems to have
had no effect on Festo retail pricing.
In the US Festo prices are relatively much lower than in Australia or
even in Germany - a replacement battery that sells for $75US cost
around $250US in Australia, and according to a number of US suppliers
Festo have now advised their US retailers that anyone selling &
shipping ANY Festo products outside the US will be 'terminated'.
regards
Bruce
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:50:59 -0400, Tom Watson <no...@erehwon.com>
wrote:
>I thought that we were protected and that the market was protected
Ralph
We,re now paying &1.41 a liter.
J. Clarke
Not in the US you aren't. We don't use "imperial gallons" nor do we
charge by the "liter". And the Sherman Antitrust Act has absolutely
no force whatsoever outside the US. Of course if you really want it
to you could try orchstrating a terrrorist attack against us . . .
Ralph
J. Clarke
Do what, apply the Sherman Antitrust Act to your benighted region?
Ralph
adequate job.
J. Clarke
Oh, I see, you can't follow a conversation and have no sense of humor.
HarveyWildes
>
> It depends.
> If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
> customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
> price since they never assumed ownership.
> There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
> sale rebates to the retailer.
> My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
> They maintain a display, but no stock.
> All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
> Vegas.
> OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
> well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
> case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
> Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
> pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
> market.
> As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
> HTH
> Lew
allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products. Once we sell
product, it is no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever
they want. Any attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for
is considered to be anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells
dealer expertise in the price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing
the basic tool price is also anticompetitive, since not all buyers will
want that service. You can certainly include service in the price of the
tool, but you can't use that as an excuse for price fixing. The only way
that I can figure out that what Festool is doing is legal is if, as this
poster suggests, Festool somehow is maintaining ownership of the tool
until it is delivered to the ultimate customer, perhaps with sales
incentives or rebates involved. That said, if that is not true, then
small dealers without a legal department often cannot prove/resist illegal
pressure from suppliers, and in many cases it may not be in their best
interest to do so - I'd imagine that dealers do fairly well with Festool
sales. If it were in anyone's best interest to pursue the issue, it would
be a large seller like Amazon, but their Prime memberships already provide
a competitive free shipping, tax-free price, so they may not care either.
Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are
the ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have
visibility to the negotiations being held between Festool and their
dealers, so it is very difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive
practices. That's why government regulators get involved. Clearly
regulators in the U.K and Australia think that Festool is misbehaving, so
I would not be surprised to see action in the U.S. at some point. In the
long run, it could end up either jacking up Festool prices or reducing the
quality, but when Dominos are already selling well for $875 because they
are the only tool on the market that does what they do well (I'm not
counting biscuit joiners as real competition), there is clearly a business
opportunity for other tool companies if they can figure out how to provide
a competitive tool that doesn't infringe Festool's patents. If another
tool manufacturer sold a tool that performed as well as a Domino at half
the cost, with fair quality but perhaps not with the same service or
expected life, I'd buy the less expensive tool.
--
J. Clarke
caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com says...
> replying to Lew Hodgett, HarveyWildes wrote:
> > lewhodgett wrote:
> >
> > It depends.
> > If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
> > customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
> > price since they never assumed ownership.
> > There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
> > sale rebates to the retailer.
> > My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
> > They maintain a display, but no stock.
> > All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
> > Vegas.
> > OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
> > well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
> > case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
> > Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
> > pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
> > market.
> > As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
> > HTH
> > Lew
>
>
> As far as I can tell, this is the best answer. My (U.S.) company is not
> allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products.
Albrecht v Herald Co, which was overturned by State Oil v Khan.
steve robinson
control
If the dealer sells below a set price they lose either some of the
discount/ rebate or stock becomes unavailable
Ed Pawlowski
>>>> It depends.
>>>> If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
>>>> customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
>>>> price since they never assumed ownership.
>>>> There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
>>>> sale rebates to the retailer.
>>>
>>> allowed to tell resellers what to charge for our products.
>>
>> Perhaps you are. The notion that this was forbidden was the result of
>> Albrecht v Herald Co, which was overturned by State Oil v Khan.
>>
>>> Once we sell
>>> product, it is no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever
>>> they want. Any attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for
>>> is considered to be anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells
>>> dealer expertise in the price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing
>>> the basic tool price is also anticompetitive, since not all buyers will
>>> want that service. You can certainly include service in the price of the
>>> Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are
>>> the ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have
>>> visibility to the negotiations being held between Festool and their
>>> dealers, so it is very difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive
>>> practices. That's why government regulators get involved. Clearly
>>> regulators in the U.K and Australia think that Festool is misbehaving, so
>>> I would not be surprised to see action in the U.S. at some point.
http://www.lanepowell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/petranovichm_007.pdf
Rule of reason.
Looks like you can dictate the price it it is higher than the competition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_reason
The rule of reason is a legal doctrine used to interpret the Sherman
Antitrust Act, one of the cornerstones of United States antitrust law.
While some actions like price-fixing are considered illegal per se,
other actions, such as possession of a monopoly, must be analyzed under
the rule of reason and are only considered illegal when their effect is
to unreasonably restrain trade. William Howard Taft, then Chief Judge of
the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, first developed the doctrine in a
ruling on Addyston Pipe and Steel Co. v. United States, which was
affirmed in 1899 by the Supreme Court. The doctrine also played a major
role in the 1911 Supreme Court case Standard Oil Company of New Jersey
v. United States.
Leon
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
understandable.
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
sloppy mortises.
HarveyWildes
>
> Good explanation here
> http://www.lanepowell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/petranovichm_007.pdf
> Rule of reason.
> Looks like you can dictate the price it it is higher than the competition.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_reason
> The rule of reason is a legal doctrine used to interpret the Sherman
> Antitrust Act, one of the cornerstones of United States antitrust law.
> While some actions like price-fixing are considered illegal per se,
> other actions, such as possession of a monopoly, must be analyzed under
> the rule of reason and are only considered illegal when their effect is
> to unreasonably restrain trade. William Howard Taft, then Chief Judge of
> the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, first developed the doctrine in a
> ruling on Addyston Pipe and Steel Co. v. United States, which was
> affirmed in 1899 by the Supreme Court. The doctrine also played a major
> role in the 1911 Supreme Court case Standard Oil Company of New Jersey
> v. United States.
cautious than needed - I'll have to follow up on this at work :).
--
HarveyWildes
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and
execution, and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool -
everyone who uses it agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts
(that is seriously impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I
wouldn't use it to it's potential. But if another tool came on the market
that did -most- of what a Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe
not as quickly, and would last until my kids took it away because it was
too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK with that.
--
Leon
years I cut about 2500 slots. I find that the Domino is so superior that I
use it more and more. It really adds strength to joints and better aids
alignment. I use it a heck of a lot more than I expected when I bought it.
It elegantly solves problems.
J. Clarke
caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com says...
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.
You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.
Leon
single bit. For certain my single 5mm bit has cut 8,000 + perfect
mortises. When I bought my Domino I knew I would use it but was clueless
that I would use it as much as I have. Even as a person that sells 80
percent of my work I do this for fun and certainly my volume does not come
near a living, and the time savings has paid for the tool countless times.
My work has increased in quality because I have the Domino. The Domino
lets you focus more on designing and building the desired piece vs. doing
the same and with complicated jigs.
A lot of the type of work that I do with the Domino was not even on the
radar when I bought the tool. What I normally would have used a plunge
router for with or with our jigs I do with the Domino.
Basically what I am saying here is that I value my free time and that the
Domino solves more problems than I ever could have imagined without the
needs to design and build jigs. I use it in more ways than I imagined when
considering the purchase.
I think that some of the jigs needed for a plunge router to do the same
cuts that I make with the Domino one might need to be more skilled to
design and build those jigs than need be to simply make the complicated
cuts with a a Domino.
J. Clarke
swbel...@news.giganews.com>, lcb1...@swbell.net says...
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
> For certain my single 5mm bit has cut 8,000 + perfect
> mortises. When I bought my Domino I knew I would use it but was clueless
> that I would use it as much as I have. Even as a person that sells 80
> percent of my work I do this for fun and certainly my volume does not come
> near a living, and the time savings has paid for the tool countless times.
paid for it, it justifies itself on time saved.
> My work has increased in quality because I have the Domino. The Domino
> lets you focus more on designing and building the desired piece vs. doing
> the same and with complicated jigs.
> A lot of the type of work that I do with the Domino was not even on the
> radar when I bought the tool. What I normally would have used a plunge
> router for with or with our jigs I do with the Domino.
> Basically what I am saying here is that I value my free time and that the
> Domino solves more problems than I ever could have imagined without the
> needs to design and build jigs. I use it in more ways than I imagined when
> considering the purchase.
> I think that some of the jigs needed for a plunge router to do the same
> cuts that I make with the Domino one might need to be more skilled to
> design and build those jigs than need be to simply make the complicated
> cuts with a a Domino.
request was for something with less durability and more limited
capability and I was merely pointing out that jigs and a plunge router
provide that option.
Leon
considerable different than a router bit. The whole plunge process
probably makes 20 back and forth passes while plunging. The side of the
bit past the first 3/16" or so from the tip does no cutting. I used to
do a lot of plunge cutting for Steve Knight and typical two wong carbide
blades hardly made it past 400 plunges 2" wide. Once I went to an end
mill bit I upped that to at least 1,000 cuts.
the Domino seems insignificant.
J. Clarke
@swbelldotnet says...
there's nothing that prevents you from sticking a Domino bit in a plunge
router.
> I used to
> do a lot of plunge cutting for Steve Knight and typical two wong carbide
> blades hardly made it past 400 plunges 2" wide. Once I went to an end
> mill bit I upped that to at least 1,000 cuts.
>
Leon
they are hollow on the screw end and they are just less than 10MM in
diameter so they might fit in a 10mm collet. And those bit's are
designed to cut in a sweeping arc, they may not cut as well or last as
long cutting in a straight line. The cutting end is rather unique.
I understand that all of this could be done with a plunge router but
some of us prefer to be spending more time actually building something
other than jigs. ;~) I think a jig is great if it saves you time.
But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has
a shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have
to be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is
removed.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051045046/in/dateposted-public/
Then those mortises have to match and index properly with these.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051074714/in/dateposted-public/
Now, for another example. I am going to assume you have a biscuit
cutter. I'm also going to assume you have cut hundreds of slots for
biscuits.
Before you bought your biscuit jointer did you seriously consider
cutting that many biscuits slots before you bought it?
Did you consider or actually build a jig and use a plunge router to cut
that many slots before buying the biscuit cutter?
If your goal is to build 6~8 pieces of furniture for your home in a
decade your suggestion makes a lot of sense if you have the skill to
design the many jigs necessary to make the multiple types of mortises
that you may need to cut. In the last 4 years I have built 11 large
pieces of furniture for our home and never would have had the extra time
to build the other 25 or so pieces in the same period for my customers.
With the Domino my production has probably increased 500 percent. And
Sketchup plus Cutlist Plus have been significant times savers too.
dpb
...
> But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
> cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
> very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
> begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has a
> shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have to
> be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is removed.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051045046/in/dateposted-public/
>
No, but I would simply cut a standard tenon on the rail and the matching
mortise on the stile instead...same end result although I'd probably not
both with cutting the tenon down but leave it full width as it would
take more handwork otherwise.
I don't quite get the purpose of the overlapping front edge, anyways,
though??? One's got a but joint visible from the front either way so
there's no difference in precision in length or squareness or anything
to get the fit...
--
J. Clarke
use up some scrap getting the adjustment right.
> Now, for another example. I am going to assume you have a biscuit
> cutter. I'm also going to assume you have cut hundreds of slots for
> biscuits.
> Before you bought your biscuit jointer did you seriously consider
> cutting that many biscuits slots before you bought it?
> Did you consider or actually build a jig and use a plunge router to cut
> that many slots before buying the biscuit cutter?
biscuit joiner but I hardly ever bother with it. Thinking about it, I
_could_ have used it for something today--thanks for reminding me that I
have the thing.
> If your goal is to build 6~8 pieces of furniture for your home in a
> decade your suggestion makes a lot of sense if you have the skill to
> design the many jigs necessary to make the multiple types of mortises
> that you may need to cut. In the last 4 years I have built 11 large
> pieces of furniture for our home and never would have had the extra time
> to build the other 25 or so pieces in the same period for my customers.
> With the Domino my production has probably increased 500 percent. And
> Sketchup plus Cutlist Plus have been significant times savers too.
creative that I enjoy. Furniture is a side effect. Building a jig
accomplishes my objective just as effectively as making furniture.
I don't really care about "increasing my production" and since I've
already stipulated that the Domino is easy to justify in any kind of
production environment I don't really understand why you are so
defensive about it.
Leon
joints allow me to rabbit the pieces to form an indention for the back
panel to fit into. The floating tenons reinforce the joints.
Here is how that fits together
https://flic.kr/p/hQxWqZ
https://flic.kr/p/hQxWWt
Leon
>
>> Now, for another example. I am going to assume you have a biscuit
>> cutter. I'm also going to assume you have cut hundreds of slots for
>> biscuits.
>> Before you bought your biscuit jointer did you seriously consider
>> cutting that many biscuits slots before you bought it?
>> Did you consider or actually build a jig and use a plunge router to cut
>> that many slots before buying the biscuit cutter?
>
> Plunge router isn't the right tool for biscuits.
is done lickety split. I use a slot cutting blade for cutting the panel
grove in arched door rails, surprisingly smooooooooth. For face in panel
slots change bits to straight. Ever easier than using for cutting
mortices for floating tenons.
But no, I've got a
> biscuit joiner but I hardly ever bother with it. Thinking about it, I
> _could_ have used it for something today--thanks for reminding me that I
> have the thing.
>
>> If your goal is to build 6~8 pieces of furniture for your home in a
>> decade your suggestion makes a lot of sense if you have the skill to
>> design the many jigs necessary to make the multiple types of mortises
>> that you may need to cut. In the last 4 years I have built 11 large
>> pieces of furniture for our home and never would have had the extra time
>> to build the other 25 or so pieces in the same period for my customers.
>> With the Domino my production has probably increased 500 percent. And
>> Sketchup plus Cutlist Plus have been significant times savers too.
>
> My goal is to relax and take my mind off of work by doing something
> creative that I enjoy. Furniture is a side effect. Building a jig
> accomplishes my objective just as effectively as making furniture.
wanting to speed up production and use more M&T jointery.
>
> I don't really care about "increasing my production" and since I've
> already stipulated that the Domino is easy to justify in any kind of
> production environment I don't really understand why you are so
> defensive about it.
>
nearly as busy, as I was pretty picky about what jobs I would take. Too
complicated and that became too much time involved. I would have been
right beside you on the comments about the doing this with another tool.
BUT after having the thing I can do the complicated joints quickly and
accurately so naturally I turn less work down and my production is
faster. Different strokes.... There are a few here that have
eventually bought a Domino and I don't think they have regretted it
whether it was justified or not. AND FWIW The Domino is crazy more
accurate than a biscuit joiner, except maybe the Llamelo which is about
the same price as the Domino. Any way....
nailsh...@aol.com
The Domino reminds me of when I got my first "hole shooter" or drill that was powerful enough to drive screws back in '75. You could buy a drill to make a hole in general carpentry use, but a real Milwaukee "hole shooter" along with long Phillips screws that were drivable changed everything. In '75 a "good drill" was about $30. A Milwaukee drill that could drive screws all day long was a whopping $90. Drivable screws were expensive themselves and hard to come by, but after about 2-3 years the screws were everywhere.
We soon found out in use you couldn't drive the longer screws with cheap drills. More and more we were screwing things together as we found out that you didn't need to clamp, you didn't need room to apply a mechanical fastener, and they held very well. I was working in commercial then, and we started screwing everything together. My screw driving drill was just as important to me as my circular saw. Strangely, most of my carpenter friends wouldn't invest in a powerful drill to drive screws. What a shame.., my forty year old drill still works, so I would say it was certainly worth it.
I think another similarity is the fact that the more we screwed things together, the more things we thought of we could do more easily by screwing instead of nailing. We didn't need to clamp as much and the joints still snugged up tight so that made their use much quicker to connect wood, and even dissimilar materials. When we started doing all steel framing, it required the ubiquitous "sheetrock screw" that you see in all sizes now. Then suddenly, there were screwguns, screw shooters, and we started to get details from architects that required components to be screwed together.
I see the Domino that way, and if they ever get to the point where their patents expire or the license out their technology, I would be that there would be a slew of new uses for that machine, just like the old screwshooters.
And like the Fein multitool. Now that I have beat the living snot out of my HF model, I would have bought the Fein model and gladly paid the fortune they were asking for it had I known how useful it is. I had no idea... but the longer I have it the more I find to do with it.
Robert
Leon
drill and probably the best corded that I have owned. Swingman has a
Milwaukee hole shooter and I have used it. That will be my next corded
drill. Those drills simply spin the chuck and anything attached to the
chuck "or" it spins the operator. :-). There is no staling that drill,
pull the trigger and something is going to spin, the chuck or the drill and
what is holding the drill. It has a simple task and it does that better
than any drill that I have ever used.
And speaking of drills, here it comes, wait for it, there is something
similar to the hole shooter in the cordless drills. Four years ago I was
using the best brand of cordless drill that I had ever owned, Makita. It
was a 12 volt model and I also had its side kick the impact driver. That
was my first impact and as most know the impact is one of those tools you
don't really understand its versatility until you start using one. It
effectively replaced the corded DeWalt when extra grunt was needed. I
would say that 98% of what I needed to spin was done with the combination
of those two Makita tools.
Four years ago I was on my second set of batteries and in need of my third
set and after 7-8 years there were improved models out there. Last
Christmas 3 years ago my wife bought me the Festool T-15-3 cordless drill
set. Well I could have bought another new Makita drill, impact, charger,
and a pair of batteries for less than half of what she paid. It was at
least comforting to know that with Festool's pricing policy that she did
not have to shop the suppliers to get the best price.
So for the last 3-1/2 years neither of the Makitas, or the Bosch impact,
that mysteriously showed up on my door step several years ago, or the
corded DeWalt have seen any action. I thought surely I would have to keep
one of the impacts going but have not found that to be true. I went from
using the Makita impact for 65% of my driving needs to zero after getting
the Festool t-15 drill.
I'm not sure if it is the brushless technology or simply the Festool's
superior quality but it drives 3-1/2" deck screws with no hesitation. Now
most any drill will do that but I can drive the screw at most any speed,
even at a crawl, and stop 3/4 into the edge of a 2x4 and resume driving
that screw with just a slight pull of the trigger.
I was almost overjoyed to learn a few days ago that Festool warrants their
new replacement batteries with the same 3 year warranty as all of their
other tools. And equally as happy that they announced that they dropped
their pricing on their batteries. A little research with an on line
retailer indicated that I can buy a new Li-ion 5.2 amp battery for $55,
shipped.
Swingman
> The Domino reminds me of when I got my first "hole shooter" or drill that was powerful enough to drive screws back in '75.
All of the interior framing (double stud) was done with a hole shooter
and screws, maybe not IBC by today's standards, but guaranteed
effective, and still standing.
--
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