HF Mortiser saga

[OFWW]

A couple weeks ago I bought a HF Mortise price 189 less 20 %

Put it together and set it up. It could have put a baby to sleep when
it rocked. One corner was about 1/8" longer than the rest. I couldn't
tell right of the bat so I used a file then switch to a Makita grinder
sat there then solid as a rock. The fence groves were tight, so I hand
filed them, now slides smoothly and was seated at the bottom of the
groove. Made some Mortise slots, worked great, so I went ahead and
took the grease coating off everything then was going through a final
checkout and noticed that for some reason the bit shifted about 3/16"
to the left on the bottom 2" of the stroke. BAH HUMBUG!

Took it back, they only had one badly banged up one left and get this,
they were now on sale for 139 bucks. (This week end) So I got a total
refund and headed to another place about 15 miles away, they had three
in stock. 1 on display 1 box with the back of the cardboard missing,
but the Styrofoam looked fine, and one other box that looked really
decent. So I bought that one yesterday, 139 less 20% coupon and took
it home. Un boxed it, set it up, chucked spun more freely, set up the
fence, etc. checked the motor ran fine. Unit sat level out of the box,
HURRAY, and then I checked the travel top to bottom smooth, real
smooth, no jumping to one side or the other, BUT I noticed on he way
down the whole head weave like a drunken sailor. It was real visible,
and would never have been able to keep a straight line with boring
multiple holes, bummer.

Unit #3, took #2 back and picked up the one with the missing back. The
lady manager was kind enough to suggest we pull this one out of the
box and check the travel, wobble, etc before I took it home. HAPPY
DAY! it all looked real good but the wooden platform wasn't near as
nice, she went to the back, pulled out a big phillips screw driver so
I could swap the plank, she said I could have both fences when I
suggest swapping them too. Cool, Score!

Took it home, cleaned it up, degreased again, set it all up and
checked the bit for squareness vertically and it was fine. The only
problem I had was one screw hole on the bottom iron plate was cross
threaded, but took care of that and now I am a happy camper.

Bottom line on all this, I ended up spending less money. Each mortiser
came with spare shaft and chuck. Each one had 1 each 1/4", 3/8" and
1/2" mortise bits. So now I have a lifetime supply of bits, chucks,
and motor adapter shafts, toss up as to whether or not it was worth it
all, but those people are all nothing less than kind and helpful.

Obviously Whatever factory made these things had poor QC, but the
units are solid, simple and massive internal gear for the stress when
boring holes. 1/2 hp the same as the other brands so it will all
depend on tool maintenance as to how well it works.

Obviously not a Festool, but it will have to do along with routers and
jigs.

Just thought I'd pass this on as a worst possible case scenario, this
is not one of their high volume tools.
YMMV

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 10/22/2016 8:56 PM, OFWW wrote:
> A couple weeks ago I bought a HF Mortise price 189 less 20 %
>

>

> Took it back, they only had one badly banged up one left and get this,

> they were now on sale for 139 bucks. (This week end) BUT I noticed on he way

> down the whole head weave like a drunken sailor. It was real visible,
> and would never have been able to keep a straight line with boring
> multiple holes, bummer.
>
> Unit #3, took #2 back and picked up the one with the missing back. The
> lady manager was kind enough to suggest we pull this one out of the
> box and check the travel, wobble, etc before I took it home. HAPPY
> DAY!

> Took it home, cleaned it up, degreased again, set it all up and
> checked the bit for squareness vertically and it was fine. The only
> problem I had was one screw hole on the bottom iron plate was cross
> threaded, but took care of that and now I am a happy camper.
>
> Bottom line on all this, I ended up spending less money. Each mortiser
> came with spare shaft and chuck.
>

> Obviously Whatever factory made these things had poor QC,

> Obviously not a Festool, but it will have to do along with routers and
> jigs.
>
> Just thought I'd pass this on as a worst possible case scenario, this
> is not one of their high volume tools.
> YMMV
>

Thank you for reinforcing my decision to buy a Delta. Cost more, but it
was only one trip to the store, one setup, makes good cuts and the
chisel does not wander.

If you're happy, that's what counts.

[OFWW]

Not entirely happy yet, seems I now need to verify whether I have a
problem with a bit or the bit bushing shifting under a hardwood.

Hope this saga helps others as well. :)

[dpb]

On 10/23/2016 11:01 AM, OFWW wrote:
...

> Not entirely happy yet, seems I now need to verify whether I have a
> problem with a bit or the bit bushing shifting under a hardwood.

As noted in other followup I'll repeat as it's worth doing so I
think--the holddown of the material is just as significant as the
rigidity/alignment of the bit/chisel. If the work moves, that's no
different than the machine being out of whack in end result.

> Hope this saga helps others as well. :)

Yeah, let's people know not to think can get by cheap unless have time
to spare to compensate. :) But, then again, we all _should_ already
know that; but we all also tend to be greedy.

[dadiOH]

"OFWW" <ofww1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:79np0chqg20g68fje...@4ax.com...

Does the bit drill straight in the same wood without the chisel?

[OFWW]

DURN! You would have to ask that, LOL. I just sat down to write out
what happened and then you asked this.

So back I went, took out the bit n chisel and put just the bit in.
Drilled a hole straight through the wood. 1/16" from the edge in, and
1/16" out.

[OFWW]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:57:15 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:

>On 10/23/2016 11:01 AM, OFWW wrote:
>...
>
>> Not entirely happy yet, seems I now need to verify whether I have a
>> problem with a bit or the bit bushing shifting under a hardwood.
>
>As noted in other followup I'll repeat as it's worth doing so I
>think--the holddown of the material is just as significant as the
>rigidity/alignment of the bit/chisel. If the work moves, that's no
>different than the machine being out of whack in end result.

I could be wrong, but as I understand hold downs in this case it is
basically to assist in bit/chisel removal from the wood. I do have the
hold down snug with the wood however, and the wood does move when the
chisel is about 1/2 way through, towards me. It would require a fence
on both sides of the wood to keep the wood in place and even then I
couldn't count on the hole drifting for the mortise.

I should expect to be able to slide the wood in order to make a 1" x
3/8" by x deep Mortise, at least I think so.

>
>> Hope this saga helps others as well. :)
>
>Yeah, let's people know not to think can get by cheap unless have time
>to spare to compensate. :) But, then again, we all _should_ already
>know that; but we all also tend to be greedy.

True, but I have had similar QC problems with high priced stuff just
as much. But in those cases I have very little patience, figuring I
should be getting 100% what I paid for.

[Leon]

In the wood working world some machines simply need to be fiddled with
more than others regardless of brand.

Mortisers are one if for nothing else the chisels. Bandsaws are another
that come to mind.

[OFWW]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:53:37 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

True, and they all require periodic maintenance.

[OFWW]

On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 17:56:12 -0700, OFWW <ofww1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Had additional problems in that the bits were larger diameter than the
chisels. Made the square hole look rounded. Filed off the bit while
running then sharpened the bit. Sharpened the chisel to polish per
Leon and it improved the ease of cutting but found that the hole
drifted toward the operator from the top to the bottom by 1/32" didn't
matter if you rotated the chisel the outcome was the same.

Noticed some slop in the bushing for the chisel spindle, couldn't find
my shim stock so I stole a bit of the wife's aluminum foil, it was
pretty close to perfect for the gap, trimmed a piece to fit and
carefully installed and now the hole drifting was reduced to less than
1/64" but still when you expect a tenon to fit a mortise with that
much of an angle in 3/4" it would require minor mods to each joint, so
I am going to opt out of the HF Mortiser for those reasons, plus the
chisels have a 3/4" shank and most new bits n chisels are 5/8" shank.

The last gotcha, after getting it all to work that well, is that the
fence is about 3/4" behind the hold down block bracket. Rendering the
fence useless without adding a full length spacer, doing major
modification to it. It would be worth it for the price of this unit,
but not with all the attendant problems that it came with. So it is
time for me to bail out of this and give the unit 1 out of 5, but the
company 10 out of 10 for the way they handle things.

I now intend to use a router to make the Mortise's for the cabinet
doors, in conjunction with a jig of some sort. Way more flexibility on
Mortise sizes and bits for them.

Any ideas would be appreciated, for jigs. Short of the Festool, only
because of the price

[J. Clarke]

In article <ga8r0cp4ih21ca6dl...@4ax.com>,
ofww1...@yahoo.com says...

At the simple end take a look at <http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/cut-
mortises-with-a-plunge-router-and-jig/>.

A more flexible and complicated jig can be found at
<http://thewoodworkersnews.com/2014/03/a-simple-but-extremely-accurate-
mortising-jig/>.

If you want both the mortise and the tenon, you might want to take alook
at the Pantorouter <https://woodgears.ca/pantorouter/> which you can
make yourself or buy as an all-metal version. He also has a dedicated
mortiser <https://woodgears.ca/slot_mortiser/index.html>.

Getting up to half-Festool territory the Leigh super FMT is an option--
its big weakness for windows and doors is that it holds the piece being
tenoned vertically which imposes a length limitation.







---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

>
>I now intend to use a router to make the Mortise's for the cabinet
>doors, in conjunction with a jig of some sort. Way more flexibility on
>Mortise sizes and bits for them.
>Any ideas would be appreciated, for jigs. Short of the Festool, only
>because of the price

Floating tenons ? ( rather than mortise & tenon )

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44779&cat=1,250,43217

... just a thought.
John T.

[Spalted Walt]

+1

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/loose-tenon-joinery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORuOdjasMo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9kJiNZ1mPo

[dpb]

On 10/23/2016 2:30 PM, OFWW wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:57:15 -0500, dpb<no...@non.net> wrote:

...

>> As noted in other followup I'll repeat as it's worth doing so I
>> think--the holddown of the material is just as significant as the
>> rigidity/alignment of the bit/chisel. If the work moves, that's no
>> different than the machine being out of whack in end result.
>
> I could be wrong, but as I understand hold downs in this case it is
> basically to assist in bit/chisel removal from the wood. I do have the
> hold down snug with the wood however, and the wood does move when the
> chisel is about 1/2 way through, towards me. It would require a fence
> on both sides of the wood to keep the wood in place and even then I
> couldn't count on the hole drifting for the mortise.
>
> I should expect to be able to slide the wood in order to make a 1" x
> 3/8" by x deep Mortise, at least I think so.

...

I forget the light-duty table tops do not have the front fence of their
larger/heavier brethren. I've an ancient (ca mid '50s?) Powermatic
Model 400 floor model that got at a TVA liquidation auction.

For working the length of a mortise, one reclamps on light-duty machines
or the larger, even the Jet, Grizzly, etc., benchtops have moving table
so one clamps the work and then the table moves taking the work with it
to do the multiple borings. This keeps things aligned much more simply
to operate at, of course, higher initial cost. I think you can get into
that market at around the $1K price tag; used "old iron" maybe a fair
amount under; iirc the PM400 went at $375 or so. The good thing on
these is there were a fair number of them that were, as this one, single
phase as opposed to the almost universal 3Ph for larger other gear that
means needing converter or remotor or otherwise get power...

[Swingman]

On 10/23/2016 8:08 PM, OFWW wrote:

>> Mortisers are one if for nothing else the chisels.
>

> True, and they all require periodic maintenance.

Yep, more than most tools and cutting edges.

Sure you'd figure it out, but I use my old Delta mortiser mainly for
cutting through mortises these days, and that's were a saddle square,
thin leaded pencil, and a well maintained, and immovable fence comes in
handy for the reference edge.

I mark both sides of the stock and cut a almost all the way through,
finish the cut on the opposite side for obvious (tearout) reasons.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[OFWW]

Now I understand why you locked down the wood. I saw a Powermatic that
had adjustable clamps to hold the wood against the fence and if the
table was floating as you described here that would make the job
sweet.

As it turned out the last alignment problem was an ill fitting bushing
for the chisel, the gap between the bushing and the housing was pretty
sloppy, not so much for between the bushing and the chisel shaft.

I couldn't find my shim stock, so I used a piece of tinfoil about .001
and wrapped the shim Trimmed and jointed it. It considerably reduced
the chisel bit walk. But it was still 1/64" off, not good for cabinet
door frames. Then I looked at the fence, what it would take to modify
it, and then decided it was much wiser to walk away from it. It uses
3/4" shaft chisels and most people stock 5/8" for the better units.

I'm dropping this idea and going for a router jig. LOL with the time
spent on this I could have built a really nice jig ;)

Thanks for your info and advice.

[OFWW]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:23:14 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 10/23/2016 8:08 PM, OFWW wrote:
>
>>> Mortisers are one if for nothing else the chisels.
>>
>> True, and they all require periodic maintenance.
>
>
>Yep, more than most tools and cutting edges.
>
>Sure you'd figure it out, but I use my old Delta mortiser mainly for
>cutting through mortises these days, and that's were a saddle square,
>thin leaded pencil, and a well maintained, and immovable fence comes in
>handy for the reference edge.
>
>I mark both sides of the stock and cut a almost all the way through,
>finish the cut on the opposite side for obvious (tearout) reasons.

I seem to remember you saying this before, and it was one of the
reasons I considered this path, and took my time on the tool. But all
the time I'm thinking, plunge n slide, plunge n slide, as opposed to
the chisel n bit. So I am going for a jig setup for now.

I'm going to keep my eyes open for a used Mortiser but I am going to
make sure it plunges straight, and the fence is solid.

Hey, the bright side is, I learned a lot about these things.

[dpb]

On 10/24/2016 2:41 PM, OFWW wrote:
...

> Now I understand why you locked down the wood. I saw a Powermatic that
> had adjustable clamps to hold the wood against the fence and if the
> table was floating as you described here that would make the job
> sweet.

...

Not really "floating" they're on ways like a milling machine...but
_much_ nicer, yes! :) The more recent models even of the benchtops
have, for the most part, also tilting head which can be handy,
particularly for things like chair rails that enter at angles if you
don't want to make an angle tenon.

I've heard some uncomplimentary things about the current new PM, though,
since they're now also offshore; if were going to go that route I'd
surely be looking for the "old iron" instead.

[Leon]

Floating tenons are probably better a majority of the time. Often the
end of a piece you want to use may not be in good shape and may not
offer a strong tenon.

[OFWW]

Thanks for the links, I'm tending towards the popwood project, or a
close variant thereof.

I vaguely recall a project where the router was on its side for making
a Mortise. I just don't think it did them on the ends of rails.

On those above they just need to have a couple small groves in the
sides to keep from a hydraulic lock with glue, and a subsequent
blowout if hit too hard with a hammer.

[krw]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:31:43 -0700, OFWW <ofww1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:53:32 +0000, Spalted Walt
><res...@newsgroup.pls> wrote:
>
>>hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
>>> >
>>> >I now intend to use a router to make the Mortise's for the cabinet
>>> >doors, in conjunction with a jig of some sort. Way more flexibility on
>>> >Mortise sizes and bits for them.
>>> >Any ideas would be appreciated, for jigs. Short of the Festool, only
>>> >because of the price
>>>
>>>
>>> Floating tenons ? ( rather than mortise & tenon )
>>>
>>> http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44779&cat=1,250,43217
>>>
>>> ... just a thought.
>>> John T.
>>>
>>
>>+1
>>
>>http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/loose-tenon-joinery
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORuOdjasMo
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9kJiNZ1mPo
>>
>Thanks for the links, I'm tending towards the popwood project, or a
>close variant thereof.
>
>I vaguely recall a project where the router was on its side for making
>a Mortise. I just don't think it did them on the ends of rails.

A Multirouter? IIRC, Swinger has one.

http://jdstools.com/product/multi-router/

There are various more "reasonable" alternatives (search on
"horizontal router"). Of course, you get what you pay for.

[OFWW]

Yes, I saw his, rather nice, but I have seen some made of wood, much
simpler. I just need to start hunting through my mags n stuff.

thanks.

[krw]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:50:38 -0700, OFWW <ofww1...@yahoo.com>

There are plans, online, to make your own (I found them with the
search above).