Harbor Freight Stepping up Their Game?

[Leon]

Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set on
the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go from a 3
year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the Hercules? Will
anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU

And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means that
it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than in the bag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 10:49:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set on
>the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go from a 3
>year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the Hercules? Will
>anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU

I liked the first sentence of this comment: "Harbor Freight's been
sniffing too much cosmoline...."

>And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means that
>it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than in the bag.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc

That's better than Bosch. Even with a vac, the users shirt gets more
sawdust than the vac. So, how's the Kapex for dust? It's looking
better and better.

[Leon]

The Kapex dust collection with the vac is probably better than the dust
collection of their track saws. You really don't notice any dust until
you have cut several boards. And then it is mostly the coarse stuff
that does not go far. I stay as free of dust on my clothing as I do
when using my Festool sanders, and those work extremely well.

I will have to say that I am very happy with the set up I got with the
Kapex as well as the Kapex. I knew that this purchase would be an
indulgence as it was hard to justify the price considering how much I
thought I would use it. More and more I am thinking that the dust
collection alone may very well justify the price over the Bosch Glide
that I was considering.

On a side note, I understand that if you use the bigger 36mm hose
instead of the more common 27mm hose dust collection works even better.
No bottle neck where the hose attaches to the saw. It fits over rather
than inside the saw manifold.

If you have an issue with dust you should check it out.

[John McGaw]

Well, they couldn't possibly 'step down' their game, could they?

[woodchucker]

On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:

No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.

--
Jeff

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 10:49:30 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set on
> the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go from a 3
> year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the Hercules? Will
> anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?

You know realistically you will never have to. On big ticket items they frequently have sales on them showing 25% off or more. Then there is the coupon that comes every other day in email, a flyer every two weeks with the same, and every quarter a flyer with 25% off. So $300 plus some change is realistic.

The saw looked nice in the video, and the construction sure looked like a lot of miter saws out there. I know this is a "badged item" but I couldn't really find anyone's specs out there that match this model. BTW, sure like the LED. I like the adjustable stainless turret ring detent as you can fine tune your saw beyond factory. Most saws (any besides DeWalt?) don't allow you to get fine tuned to your own specs. The blue blade looks suspiciously like a Diablo blade with its laser cut outs, but doubt that it is.

As far as the 90 day warranty, you can get an in store warranty for just a few dollars to extend it to 2 years. That is for //replacement// at the store, not for repairs. Having waited for parts on my Bostitch air guns, my DeWalt saws and drills, and having to ship off my Ridgid tools for evaluation before repairs, I like that. Pretty nice to be able to have a tool break in the morning and have a new one out on the job in a couple of hours at no additional charge. Both DeWalt and Bosch require you to ship (a 60lb miter saw) to their repair center if you don't have one in your town. The caveat there is to find the DeWalt/Bosch center that works on your particular tool; don't get me started on that subject.

Note too, that when reading the respective warranties, that DeWalt is 3 year limited, and Bosch only 1 year limited. Limited in both cases means that there is no warranty for anything other than manufacturing defects of material or in workmanship. Their warranties do not cover wear and tear. I like DeWalt tools and like Bosch tools (some a great deal) but never have I gone to the repair center where I didn't pay extra for repairs. Remember, bench fees at most places are about $75 and they determine what is normal wear and tear. So it is a $75 crap shoot; and if they ask you if you use the tool commercially, I can almost guarantee there will be no warranty. In store replacement starts to look even better, right? Consider too, that most manufacturers exclude professional use of the tools from anything more than a 90 day warranty, regardless of box art claims.

I have used the HF additional warranty coverage, and believe me, no one in the store I go to wants to argue. They look at the tool, make sure it wasn't run over and shows no signs of obvious abuse, they get the manager and you have a new tool. And with the purchase of the additional warranty, they register you and the tool purchase info on the spot.

So all that for probably about $350, including additional local warranty as described/experienced. That puts it a whopping $250 under the DeWalt and Bosch I found at Amazon. They are at $599 as of a few minutes ago.

I think it will come down to the actual repeatable accuracy and dependability of the saw. Even though some of the new offerings from HF like their Bauer and Hercules seem to spec out better, apparently some guys on the 'net seem to think they are inferior products. At $250 less, it seems like it could sure be worth looking at!

Robert

[Leon]

On 3/3/2018 12:55 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
Snip

> I think it will come down to the actual repeatable accuracy and dependability of the saw. Even though some of the new offerings from HF like their Bauer and Hercules seem to spec out better, apparently some guys on the 'net seem to think they are inferior products. At $250 less, it seems like it could sure be worth looking at!
>
> Robert
>

That is what it is all about, will it be accurate. My big question is
if it will be that much better than their Chicago Electric saw that
sells for less than half of that price. Apparently users of the Chicago
saw are pretty impressed too.

[-MIKE-]

Love that guy!
I'm watching it, now.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

[k...@notreal.com]

Whichever way I go, I'll likely use my DC for the SCMS. It's pretty
much right next to where it's going.

>If you have an issue with dust you should check it out.

I will. You convince me, long ago, that it's better to clean up the
source than the floor (and lungs).

[Leon]

On 3/3/2018 8:34 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:

Snip

>>
>> On a side note, I understand that if you use the bigger 36mm hose
>> instead of the more common 27mm hose dust collection works even better.
>> No bottle neck where the hose attaches to the saw. It fits over rather
>> than inside the saw manifold.
>
> Whichever way I go, I'll likely use my DC for the SCMS. It's pretty
> much right next to where it's going.
>
>> If you have an issue with dust you should check it out.
>
> I will. You convince me, long ago, that it's better to clean up the
> source than the floor (and lungs).
>

Yeah! It is ironic how long it took me to realize the benefits of
collecting dust before you see it. No need to clean up or dust off
before going inside the house and many fewer sinus issues. Out of the
40 years of serious wood working I went about 22 years before seeing the
light, instead of the dust. ;)

[Jack]

On 3/3/2018 3:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/3/18 12:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set
>>> on the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go
>>> from a 3 year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the
>>> Hercules? Will anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU
>>>
>>> And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means
>>> that it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than
>>> in the bag.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc
>>
>> No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.
>>
>
> Love that guy!
> I'm watching it, now.

Me too. He speaks my language too. He likes Hilti tools I think. Not
at all impressed with the festering tools, (considering the price) He
said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use and abuse
that a contractor would need.

Hilti on the other hand he thinks is over kill for the home user. As a
home user, I wouldn't spend the bucks on either, but really, if I wanted
to spend that much on a hand tool, I'd look at a Hilti first.

I bought my wife a kitchen aid mixer, and THEN watched his tear
down/review of the same mixer, holding my breath. Seemed to pass so I
was happy.

He says no manufacturer would ever send him a tool for review, and after
watching him a few times, I believe him.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

[Jack]

On 3/3/2018 1:55 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:

BTW, sure like the LED.

I have a Crapsman 20 volt saw that has a laser light. I LOVE the light,
and it enables me to cut almost as straight as a carpenter. My tailed
Makita is a nice saw, but I'd never buy another circular saw w/o a
laser. Makes cutting down the line of a 4/8 foot hunk of ply a breeze.
Thought it might be a gimmick, but it's not.

[Leon]

On 3/5/2018 8:12 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 3/3/2018 3:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/3/18 12:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set
>>>> on the DeWalt DWS780.  But is the price difference to enough to go
>>>> from a 3 year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the
>>>> Hercules?  Will anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU
>>>>
>>>> And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means
>>>> that it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than
>>>> in the bag.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc
>>>
>>> No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.
>>>
>>
>> Love that guy!
>> I'm watching it, now.
>
> Me too.  He speaks my language too.  He likes Hilti tools I think.  Not
> at all impressed with the festering tools, (considering the price)  He
> said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use and abuse
> that a contractor would need.

And yet pros have been using the Festool track saws for decades..

>
> Hilti on the other hand he thinks is over kill for the home user.  As a
> home user, I wouldn't spend the bucks on either, but really, if I wanted
> to spend that much on a hand tool, I'd look at a Hilti first.
>
> I bought my wife a kitchen aid mixer, and THEN watched his tear
> down/review of the same mixer, holding my breath.  Seemed to pass so I
> was happy.
>
> He says no manufacturer would ever send him a tool for review, and after
> watching him a few times, I believe him.
>

This guy is like many on YouTube, simply trying to get as many likes as
possible. Click bate.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 09:12:53 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 3/3/2018 3:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/3/18 12:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set
>>>> on the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go
>>>> from a 3 year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the
>>>> Hercules? Will anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU
>>>>
>>>> And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means
>>>> that it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than
>>>> in the bag.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc
>>>
>>> No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.
>>>
>>
>> Love that guy!
>> I'm watching it, now.
>
>Me too. He speaks my language too. He likes Hilti tools I think. Not
>at all impressed with the festering tools, (considering the price) He
>said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use and abuse
>that a contractor would need.

Duh! It's not a contractor saw.

>Hilti on the other hand he thinks is over kill for the home user. As a
>home user, I wouldn't spend the bucks on either, but really, if I wanted
>to spend that much on a hand tool, I'd look at a Hilti first.
>
>I bought my wife a kitchen aid mixer, and THEN watched his tear
>down/review of the same mixer, holding my breath. Seemed to pass so I
>was happy.
>
>He says no manufacturer would ever send him a tool for review, and after
>watching him a few times, I believe him.

So do I, but likely for a whole different reason than do you.

[-MIKE-]

Actually, I find him both entertaining and knowledgeable. Not your
typical vapid haha type.
He obviously has a lot of education/knowledge of electrical and
mechanical engineering and knows a lot about plastics and metals
manufacturing.

I haven't found him to be a Festool basher. He doesn't pull punches
where he sees a need to be critical, but he also doesn't "look for
reasons" to bash something.
IIRC, he was concerned about one bearing on the saw, but he was also
very impressed with the Festool casting and machining and took a lot of
time to point it out and offered many compliments.

[Leon]

Regardless of his findings of materials used, the tools hold up,
extremely well. I personally could care less what the materials are
made up of if the tool does what it is suppose to do and for years on
end. I kind of finds his findings pointless. But he is funny, haha.
Obviously every thing has a weak point otherwise everything would one
day degenerate in to a pile of dust. ;~)

[-MIKE-]

Home Depot must be paying attention....
<https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-10-in-Sliding-Miter-R4210/301463268>
70° miter capacity!!

[Jack]

On 3/5/2018 1:07 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/5/2018 8:12 AM, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/3/2018 3:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/3/18 12:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set
>>>>> on the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go
>>>>> from a 3 year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the
>>>>> Hercules? Will anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU
>>>>>
>>>>> And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means
>>>>> that it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than
>>>>> in the bag.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc
>>>>
>>>> No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Love that guy!
>>> I'm watching it, now.
>>
>> Me too. He speaks my language too. He likes Hilti tools I think.
>> Not at all impressed with the festering tools, (considering the
>> price) He said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use
>> and abuse that a contractor would need.
>
> And yet pros have been using the Festool track saws for decades..

Pro's have also been using Harbor Freight junk, so what?

I'd bet you would be more likely to see the pros using HF than Festools.

>> Hilti on the other hand he thinks is over kill for the home user. As
>> a home user, I wouldn't spend the bucks on either, but really, if I
>> wanted to spend that much on a hand tool, I'd look at a Hilti first.
>>
>> I bought my wife a kitchen aid mixer, and THEN watched his tear
>> down/review of the same mixer, holding my breath. Seemed to pass so I
>> was happy.
>>
>> He says no manufacturer would ever send him a tool for review, and
>> after watching him a few times, I believe him.
>>
>
> This guy is like many on YouTube, simply trying to get as many likes as
> possible. Click bate.

[Jack]

On 3/5/2018 2:03 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 09:12:53 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/3/2018 3:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/3/18 12:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set
>>>>> on the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go
>>>>> from a 3 year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the
>>>>> Hercules? Will anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU
>>>>>
>>>>> And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means
>>>>> that it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than
>>>>> in the bag.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc
>>>>
>>>> No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Love that guy!
>>> I'm watching it, now.
>>
>> Me too. He speaks my language too. He likes Hilti tools I think. Not
>> at all impressed with the festering tools, (considering the price) He
>> said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use and abuse
>> that a contractor would need.
>
> Duh! It's not a contractor saw.

Just priced like one...

>> Hilti on the other hand he thinks is over kill for the home user. As a
>> home user, I wouldn't spend the bucks on either, but really, if I wanted
>> to spend that much on a hand tool, I'd look at a Hilti first.
>>
>> I bought my wife a kitchen aid mixer, and THEN watched his tear
>> down/review of the same mixer, holding my breath. Seemed to pass so I
>> was happy.
>>
>> He says no manufacturer would ever send him a tool for review, and after
>> watching him a few times, I believe him.
>
> So do I, but likely for a whole different reason than do you.

What might that be?

[Leon]

On 3/6/2018 8:24 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 3/5/2018 1:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/5/2018 8:12 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 3/3/2018 3:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/3/18 12:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>>> On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set
>>>>>> on the DeWalt DWS780.  But is the price difference to enough to go
>>>>>> from a 3 year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the
>>>>>> Hercules?  Will anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means
>>>>>> that it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than
>>>>>> in the bag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc
>>>>>
>>>>> No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Love that guy!
>>>> I'm watching it, now.
>>>
>>> Me too.  He speaks my language too.  He likes Hilti tools I think.
>>> Not at all impressed with the festering tools, (considering the
>>> price)  He said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use
>>> and abuse that a contractor would need.
>>
>> And yet pros have been using the Festool track saws for decades..
>
> Pro's have also been using Harbor Freight junk, so what?

I don't know, so what. He said that the TS55 is not designed for
continuous use. He has no evidence that they will not work as well as
another brand with regard to function or longevity. And years of, in
the field use, has proven that.

>
> I'd bet you would be more likely to see the pros using HF than Festools.

Yeah, so what?

[Jack]

Compared to what? A high priced Hilti or a 1/10th priced HF?

His opinion seems to be, based on tearing down tools to see what they
are made of, is that the Festool is a nice tool, but you _don't_ get
what you pay for, and the Hilti is a great tool, but you _do_ get what
you pay for. Also, he said Festool seems designed for the occasional
user that is not going to use and abuse the tool, like a homeowner. Not
good for continuous use and abuse, like a contractor.

My opinion is both tools are overkill for me and no one on earth _needs_
to spend $700 on a shop vac, and festools target market seems to be the
dude rancher.

I personally could care less what the materials are
> made up of if the tool does what it is suppose to do and for years on
> end. I kind of finds his findings pointless.

He seems rather knowledgeable to me. Most reviews on Youtube are
extremely shallow while his are anything but. Pointless is hard to
figure. He pointed out a few weaknesses in the TS55 design, also
mentioned some strong points. And, he is somewhat entertaining while
doing it.

[-MIKE-]

Irrelevant to the context as to holding up to continuous use.
I would put good money on *any* Festool power tool lasting longer than
*any* HF power tool in side-by-side test.
Considering the price difference, it's not a difficult bet to make.

[Leon]

Compared to it not holding up well. I have yet to have one need to be
serviced yet or break down. Can't say that for my PC, Bosch, DeWalt tools.

>
> His opinion seems to be, based on tearing down tools to see what they
> are made of, is that the Festool is a nice tool, but you _don't_ get
> what you pay for, and the Hilti is a great tool, but you _do_ get what
> you pay for. Also, he said Festool seems designed for the occasional
> user that is not going to use and abuse the tool, like a homeowner. Not
> good for continuous use and abuse, like a contractor.
>
> My opinion is both tools are overkill for me and no one on earth _needs_
> to spend $700 on a shop vac, and festools target market seems to be the
> dude rancher.

And for you and your needs both brands are probably over kill. For me
not so much.

>
> I personally could care less what the materials are
>> made up of if the tool does what it is suppose to do and for years on
>> end.  I kind of finds his findings pointless.
>
> He seems rather knowledgeable to me. Most reviews on Youtube are
> extremely shallow while his are anything but. Pointless is hard to
> figure.  He pointed out a few weaknesses in the TS55 design, also
> mentioned some strong points. And, he is somewhat entertaining while
> doing it.
>

I think knowledgeable with a bias against almost every thing he putters
with, including other brand acquisitions.

The whole point to his videos is to find something wrong with what ever
he disassembles. That is fine if you like to read something into that.

It does not matter what or how a tool is made, if it holds up and
performs well, that is all that matters.

I use my tools and do not sit back wondering if they will hold up or
not. Nor do I fear breaking them. I do not blindly assume Festool
makes nothing but perfection. I will tell you right up front that The
Festool parallel guides are a poor design and a PIA to use and they are
quite expensive.

I proceeded with caution when I purchased my Dust Extractor and Domino,
11 years ago, my first Festool tools. The Dust Extractor is operated
ever time I use my Domino, track saw, any of the 3 sanders, Kapex,
pocket hole jig, or for spot cleaning. The Domino has cut in excess of
10,000 mortises and the machine still operates and and looks new. The
original 5mm bit that has cut probably 9,000 of those mortises and still
cuts perfectly fine. I cannot tell you how many times I have dropped
all three of my Festool sanders and Festool drill onto my concrete
floor, not a problem.

How much do I use my tools? I have posted countless links to projects
that I have built in the past 20 years of participating on this news
group. 90% of those projects were for customers.

[DerbyDad03]

Hey dude, where's your ranch? ;-)

[Leon]

Eggsactly!

On another note, I noticed that Festool has, well on April 2, will be
coming out with a Granet NET sanding disk with intermediate pad.

https://www.festoolusa.com/power-tools/granat-net?utm_source=email&utm_medium=button&utm_campaign=sysnotes_mar2

[DerbyDad03]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:18:38 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 3/6/2018 5:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 12:25:44 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> >> On 3/6/2018 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:

...snip...

> >>>
> >>> My opinion is both tools are overkill for me and no one on earth _needs_
> >>> to spend $700 on a shop vac, and festools target market seems to be the
> >>> dude rancher.

...snip...

> >> How much do I use my tools? I have posted countless links to projects
> >> that I have built in the past 20 years of participating on this news
> >> group. 90% of those projects were for customers.
> >
> > Hey dude, where's your ranch? ;-)
> >
>
>
>
> Eggsactly!
>
> On another note, I noticed that Festool has, well on April 2, will be
> coming out with a Granet NET sanding disk with intermediate pad.
>
> https://www.festoolusa.com/power-tools/granat-net?utm_source=email&utm_medium=button&utm_campaign=sysnotes_mar2

Ya know, you could do us (me!) a big favor and try a pack of the Diablo
SandNet discs.

You've tried sand nets that you didn't like and you have found sanding disks
that you do like, so you would be the perfect tester for the Diablo product.

I don't have enough experience to do a good comparison and might not even be
able to put the choices through their paces correctly.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Diablo-5-in-180-Grit-SandNet-Disc-with-Free-Application-Pad-10-Pack-DND050180H10I/301439869

Let us know how you like them. ;-)

[Leon]

On 3/6/2018 5:42 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:18:38 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/6/2018 5:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 12:25:44 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/6/2018 9:14 AM, Jack wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinion is both tools are overkill for me and no one on earth _needs_
>>>>> to spend $700 on a shop vac, and festools target market seems to be the
>>>>> dude rancher.
>
> ...snip...
>
>>>> How much do I use my tools? I have posted countless links to projects
>>>> that I have built in the past 20 years of participating on this news
>>>> group. 90% of those projects were for customers.
>>>
>>> Hey dude, where's your ranch? ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eggsactly!
>>
>> On another note, I noticed that Festool has, well on April 2, will be
>> coming out with a Granet NET sanding disk with intermediate pad.
>>
>> https://www.festoolusa.com/power-tools/granat-net?utm_source=email&utm_medium=button&utm_campaign=sysnotes_mar2
>
> Ya know, you could do us (me!) a big favor and try a pack of the Diablo
> SandNet discs.

Sure, send them down. ;~)

>
> You've tried sand nets that you didn't like and you have found sanding disks
> that you do like, so you would be the perfect tester for the Diablo product.

I think the big issue with me is that I sand narrow face frames and the
foam intermediate pad allows the net to compress over the face frame and
that adds more stress to the net. IIRC I had no issue when sanding wide
open flat spots but when the edge of the net went over an edge I had
problems.

The paper sand paper has more reinforcement backing from the sander pad.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:24:24 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 3/5/2018 2:03 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 09:12:53 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/3/2018 3:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/3/18 12:50 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>>> On 3/3/2018 11:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> Apparently the new line of HF tools, Hercules, has got it's sites set
>>>>>> on the DeWalt DWS780. But is the price difference to enough to go
>>>>>> from a 3 year warranty on the DeWalt to a 90 day warranty for the
>>>>>> Hercules? Will anyone pay $399 for a HF SCMS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfLR-FQGgGU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the claimed "high efficiency dust collection" apparently means
>>>>>> that it will collect dust on the outside of the dust bag rather than
>>>>>> in the bag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=fLCrCz1_2rc
>>>>>
>>>>> No, Watch AVE's teardown of the hercules drills. Crap.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Love that guy!
>>>> I'm watching it, now.
>>>
>>> Me too. He speaks my language too. He likes Hilti tools I think. Not
>>> at all impressed with the festering tools, (considering the price) He
>>> said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use and abuse
>>> that a contractor would need.
>>
>> Duh! It's not a contractor saw.
>
>Just priced like one...

A BMW 7-Series is priced even higher!

>
>>> Hilti on the other hand he thinks is over kill for the home user. As a
>>> home user, I wouldn't spend the bucks on either, but really, if I wanted
>>> to spend that much on a hand tool, I'd look at a Hilti first.
>>>
>>> I bought my wife a kitchen aid mixer, and THEN watched his tear
>>> down/review of the same mixer, holding my breath. Seemed to pass so I
>>> was happy.
>>>
>>> He says no manufacturer would ever send him a tool for review, and after
>>> watching him a few times, I believe him.
>>
>> So do I, but likely for a whole different reason than do you.
>
>What might that be?

Because they don't want their tools associated with a nutter.

[DerbyDad03]

That's exactly why I want you to try the Diablo discs. I've done the *edges*
of 3/4" stock, 2" face frames, etc. and never even came close to tearing a
disc. I even rounded edges (purposely) on rough work, just to knock the sharp
off.

You know you are not supposed to stand on the sander while using it right? Let
the tool do the work. ;-)

[nailsh...@aol.com]

If it was me, or only me and a trusted assistant I would buy Festool for almost all my needs. And yes, under those conditions I would take them out to a job site when needed. The only tool I wouldn't buy that they make is their drills. Too much value these days in the lifetime warranty (and recent brushless models) for me to buy something else.

I have multiples of all the tools I use, and most are of different models from different manufacturers. Over the last 40 years of doing this as a contractor for myself I look for value, durability, and repeatability in use. NO manufacturer makes all their tools in all their models to that standard. I have had DeWalt tools that are garbage. Had DeWalt tools that are great. Bosch has a pretty good track record with me and their oscillating tool, the old American made circulars saws were great. PC was a good brand, never great, but they turned out some real crap and have now fallen off the radar. Makita? Depends on what you are buying. The list goes on.

Festool, and probably Fein are the only commonly available tool that you can buy with complete confidence. For those that take care of their tools and rely on them to make their living, I think in most cases Festool is unmatched. Personally, I say all that bullshit about "contractor rated" or "full time use" and all the other marketing crap is just that. I watch some of the videos out there and always remember that 99% of the uploaders don't actually use their tools to make a living. They use the videos to supplement their income so it is important to say or do something that attracts attention to their videos for the almighty "click".

I first saw the Festool track saw in use when visiting Swingman and Leon. Swing took out the saw and showed me the setup, cut a piece of plywood, and we talked about the strong points and weak points. For those of us that know Swing (bless his heart), he is blunt and proud of his opinions. He was enormously impressed with the track saw, and after seeing it in use and its ease of setup, I was too. The cuts would rival or exceed most table saws, and the blade should (literally) last for years.

Leon's opinions concur, and again, having seen the saw, the setup and the final product I think it is a winner. If I needed a track saw, I would get that one.

So why don't I have all Festool? What is the place of Harbor Freight and other discount tools? Employees that don't take care of your tools as you do, employees that don't know how to use tools correctly, the very real possibility of job site theft, and for almost all the needs on a construction site there is no need for the kind of quality work that their tools are capable of doing.

Comparing HF, or others to Festool has to be with a grain of salt. I only know of two other contractors that use Festool out in the field (and one loves those damn drills) and neither of them have ever had a failure. One is a cabinet installer that specialized in remodeling projects, so Festool's Kapex miter saw and his dust collector is his weapon of choice. He is one of the very few craftsmen I trust, and he tells me that the Kapex is as accurate now as it was 5 years ago when he bought it, used over countless jobs. So what is "job site rated" or the opinion it might not stand up to long term use worth? Festool seems to do just fine with full time professional use. He has small Festool track saw at his shop and since he hates the mess of his table saw, uses it for all his "one off" cabinet builds, from carcass to shelving, not just breaking down sheet goods.

HF tools have their place. Good for rough work, some good for rough treatment, and the thought that you live with varying quality depending on the tool. No real tears when you see them thrown in the bed of the truck for transport, when one of your idiots is using your miter saw to cut job site trash into smaller chunks, and no real fear of lending them to a worker to finish up a job, and no undue screaming at your workers when they leave them out in the rain while they huddle under the eaves of a roof so THEY don't get wet. They are adequate and affordable. They have their place.

Comparing HF to Festool in just about anyway is just stupid. One is a tool designed and manufactured to the highest tolerances for dedicated woodworkers or exacting professionals, and one is a utility tool that fits a certain need. I have never heard of a professional saying, "man, one day I would really like to have one of those HF miter saws".

Don't get this one...

Robert

[Leon]

I just might give it a try. It would be a favor to you. :-)

[Leon]

Bless His Heart!

[Jack]

Exactly!

>
>>
>>>> Hilti on the other hand he thinks is over kill for the home user. As
>>>> a home user, I wouldn't spend the bucks on either, but really, if I
>>>> wanted to spend that much on a hand tool, I'd look at a Hilti first.
>>>>
>>>> I bought my wife a kitchen aid mixer, and THEN watched his tear
>>>> down/review of the same mixer, holding my breath. Seemed to pass so I
>>>> was happy.
>>>>
>>>> He says no manufacturer would ever send him a tool for review, and
>>>> after watching him a few times, I believe him.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This guy is like many on YouTube, simply trying to get as many likes as
>>> possible. Click bate.
>>
>>
>

[Jack]

The point of course is just because some pro somewhere uses a festering
tool does not prove anything because pro's (more of them probably) also
use HF tools. That doesn't mean HF tools are super durable any more than
it proves festering tools are. AVE's review indicates festering tools
are good, but has a number of surprising weaknesses, considering the cost.

[Jack]

He looks for weaknesses, that is the purpose of his reviews. He always
points out exactly why he considers it a weakness and the potential for
failure. This tends to piss off manufacturers that design in weaknesses
and know exactly where they are, and about when they will fail. That is
seems to piss you off is interesting.

> The whole point to his videos is to find something wrong with what ever
> he disassembles. That is fine if you like to read something into that.

Actually that is false. His review of Hilti drill and Kitchen Aid Mixer
were both fine. In fact, his review of this festering saw was quite
good, and he specifically pointed out what surprised him and what he
thought would have been better. This seems to have royally got your
panties in a bunch.

> It does not matter what or how a tool is made, if it holds up and
> performs well, that is all that matters.

Which is determined by how it is made.

> I use my tools and do not sit back wondering if they will hold up or
> not. Nor do I fear breaking them. I do not blindly assume Festool
> makes nothing but perfection. I will tell you right up front that The
> Festool parallel guides are a poor design and a PIA to use and they are
> quite expensive.
>
> I proceeded with caution when I purchased my Dust Extractor and Domino,
> 11 years ago, my first Festool tools. The Dust Extractor is operated
> ever time I use my Domino, track saw, any of the 3 sanders, Kapex,
> pocket hole jig, or for spot cleaning. The Domino has cut in excess of
> 10,000 mortises and the machine still operates and and looks new. The
> original 5mm bit that has cut probably 9,000 of those mortises and still
> cuts perfectly fine. I cannot tell you how many times I have dropped
> all three of my Festool sanders and Festool drill onto my concrete
> floor, not a problem.
>
> How much do I use my tools? I have posted countless links to projects
> that I have built in the past 20 years of participating on this news
> group. 90% of those projects were for customers.

He said they are good tools for the home shop where a few items are
made. You seem to make less than 12 things a year. This is
intermittent use and exactly what AVe would expect.

[Jack]

Reading the reviews at homedepot.

One guy said they lasted less than a minute and showed pictures of 2
totally destroyed discs... Probably a festering tool employee.

Another guy said they did not appear to be made of sand... Probably a
dude rancher...

Another said they were the best things ever made... probably not AVe...

I was going to try them, until I read these reviews, and remembered I
have enough sanding discs to last me well past my life expectancy in the
shop...

[Jack]

By "nutter" you must mean someone that will disassemble their tool
looking for built in weaknesses and expose them to the public?

That's exactly what I think as well...

[Jack]

You don't get that the fact that you know "pro's" (yourself even) that
uses HF tools does not infer that HF tools are great tools designed to
last any more that a pro using a festering tool mean they are balls to
the wall best tools ever made...

[Leon]

Jack, if some pro some where was the only one using Featool, like you
are painting the picture, Festool would not be in business.

Yes there are a lot of people that are not pro's that buy Festool these
days, they can afford the top end products whether they need them or
not. But Prior to about 12 years ago Festool, back some 50 or so years,
relied mostly on the pro.

It just so happens that they found that there was a market for people
that still wanted top quality tools and that also happened to be hobbyists.

I would say that I am some what of a pro, not full time pro, but I can
easily afford Festool products. And I cannot afford to build as much as
I do if I did not sell the vast majority of what I build. My material
costs far exceeds my tools costs. I have been seriously wood working
for 40 years and as a hobby since I was 10. I have a very good idea of
what brand tools to buy. FWIW many of my tool purchases, since I
bought my first Festool 11 years ago, have not been Festool. So you
can't say that I am one of the ignorant that believes that every tool
that a tool manufacturer makes is going to be top notch, that is just
not a reality. BUT I have yet to have to replace any of my Festool
tools which is not what I can say about any of the other brands that I
have bought. For certain the sanders have out lived my PC sanders by a
margin of 2 to 1, so far, and the Festool Sanders do more than my old PC
sanders.

As far as the click bait guy goes you can believe every thing he says
since you seem drawn to a person that uses words that you probably
cannot find in a dictionary. If you go to his YouTube videos and Click
on the Dirty Secrets of a $1000 saw, "you" and "I" have both been
victims of Click Bait. The saw in question costs no where near $1K,
Today years later after annual price increases, the saw sells for just
over half that price. I have the more expensive version and still paid
nowhere near $1K.

FWIW it is just as easy to correctly spell a tool name as make up a
derogatory name. Grow up, maybe you won't show your hand before you
say anything.

[Leon]

On 3/6/2018 8:32 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
> If it was me, or only me and a trusted assistant I would buy Festool for almost all my needs. And yes, under those conditions I would take them out to a job site when needed. The only tool I wouldn't buy that they make is their drills. Too much value these days in the lifetime warranty (and recent brushless models) for me to buy something else.

FWIW if it were not for the high risk of theft and a worker not
respecting some one else's tool I believe we would see a lot more
Festool out there in the trades.

Snip

>
> Festool, and probably Fein are the only commonly available tool that you can buy with complete confidence. For those that take care of their tools and rely on them to make their living, I think in most cases Festool is unmatched.

I am in the camp that believes that no one makes the best of everything.
But saying that and with several of my Festool brand tools being 10+
years old I agree that Festool probably comes closer to that utopia than
the majority. The Festool warranty used to be a factor for me but no
longer. I have not had to use their warranty so far. I certainly think
the Ridgid line of tools have the best in the industry warranty and
almost with with one of their drills 15 or so years ago. I ultimately
went with Makita, the Makita just felt better in my hand and was much
lighter weight that the Ridgid was back then.

Back to the Festool brand, Festool offers a 30 day money back guarantee,
no questions asked. That certainly is not exclusive to Festool but is
pretty much all the nudge I need to make the purchase. Because I have
yet to replace any of my Festools I am not so much concerned about it
holding up so much as to whether or not it will do what I expect.
Specifically, the last Festool sander that I bought I was not certain
that it was going to be helpful in eliminating the little circles you
often get. I in particular was having this issue when sanding cross
grain with RTS400 Festool sander. Yes sanding cross grain on face
frames happens when the rails and stiles meet. I do not often stain but
on this particular job the stain really brought out the circle issue.
Anyway I told the Woodcraft guys that was what I wanted to eliminate
with the new sander that Festool recently introduced. 30 minutes after
using that sander I knew it was a keeper.

Personally, I say all that bullshit about "contractor rated" or "full
time use" and all the other marketing crap is just that. I watch some
of the videos out there and always remember that 99% of the uploaders
don't actually use their tools to make a living. They use the videos to
supplement their income so it is important to say or do something that
attracts attention to their videos for the almighty "click".
>
> I first saw the Festool track saw in use when visiting Swingman and Leon. Swing took out the saw and showed me the setup, cut a piece of plywood, and we talked about the strong points and weak points. For those of us that know Swing (bless his heart), he is blunt and proud of his opinions. He was enormously impressed with the track saw, and after seeing it in use and its ease of setup, I was too. The cuts would rival or exceed most table saws, and the blade should (literally) last for years.


>
> Leon's opinions concur, and again, having seen the saw, the setup and the final product I think it is a winner. If I needed a track saw, I would get that one.
>
> So why don't I have all Festool? What is the place of Harbor Freight and other discount tools? Employees that don't take care of your tools as you do, employees that don't know how to use tools correctly, the very real possibility of job site theft, and for almost all the needs on a construction site there is no need for the kind of quality work that their tools are capable of doing.
>
> Comparing HF, or others to Festool has to be with a grain of salt. I only know of two other contractors that use Festool out in the field (and one loves those damn drills) and neither of them have ever had a failure. One is a cabinet installer that specialized in remodeling projects, so Festool's Kapex miter saw and his dust collector is his weapon of choice. He is one of the very few craftsmen I trust, and he tells me that the Kapex is as accurate now as it was 5 years ago when he bought it, used over countless jobs.

Good to know since mine was an indulgence purchase. And I have to say I
have used mine several times and it is great to know that the set up I
showed you is exactly what I wanted, in actual use and not just on
paper. The length stops are dead on accurate and very easy to flip out
of the way when needing to square up the ends of short boards and then
cut to length. And with long boards, with both wings up, I can simply
square one end of a long board, slide it down to the opposite side wing
stop and cut to length. Very well thought out.

[Leon]

Yeah, some one that likes to disassemble tools rather than use them.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

I always remember the source of the information when I am retrieving it. If it is written, I check out who wrote it and why. If it is a video, I look at production quality, fairness, and reality vs. practicality and then see if the site was sponsored.

Regardless of the media form, there is one huge truth, one complete constant. And that is if no one reads it, watches it, or hears it, it is a failure. So it has to be chock full or information or entertaining, or a little of both. But with everyone an expert these days, and everyone being able to monetize their opinions, how do you get clicks? More importantly, how can one MAKE MONEY by getting clicks for their day's work?

"Well by skookum hunky dory doodly diddly, that bearing is tighter than a handmaiden's quim in church, okay!" No doubt that type of expression is entertaining, but hardly lends itself to the validity of a review. Tiring after a while for me.

I only trust new tool reviews from someone that has used the tool. That for me means asking around the job sites, and a quick review here and there, and like you Leon, buying from someone that will take it back if I am unhappy.

Robert

[Markem]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 10:15:00 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 3/6/2018 9:32 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
>> If it was me, or only me and a trusted assistant I would buy Festool for almost all my needs.
>> And yes, under those conditions I would take them out to a job site when needed.
>>The only tool I wouldn't buy that they make is their drills.
>>Too much value these days in the lifetime warranty (and recent brushless models) for me to buy something else.
>>

Big Snip

>>
>> Comparing HF to Festool in just about anyway is just stupid.
>>One is a tool designed and manufactured to the highest tolerances for
>>dedicated woodworkers or exacting professionals, and one is a utility tool
>>that fits a certain need. I have never heard of a professional saying,
>>"man, one day I would really like to have one of those HF miter saws".
>>
>> Don't get this one...
>
>You don't get that the fact that you know "pro's" (yourself even) that
>uses HF tools does not infer that HF tools are great tools designed to
>last any more that a pro using a festering tool mean they are balls to
>the wall best tools ever made...

You know Jack that is exactly what he said by my reading.

YMMV I guess.

[k...@notreal.com]

Someone who has nothing better to do with his life? Yeah, an nutter.

>That's exactly what I think as well...

...but not as nutty as those who click on his bait.

[-MIKE-]

Man, are you a judgmental, crotchety old fart. :-)

The guy's has turned a hobby into a pretty decent part time job.
As someone who's gotten regular direct deposits from Youtube for my
content, I wish I had the followers and plays that he has.

He's providing pretty entertaining and educational content and getting
paid pretty well for it. You condescending and ignorantly ask if he has

nothing better to do with his life?

What would you prefer he do with his spare time? Watch TV all night?
How much do you get paid for bitching about guys putting videos on
YouTube?

[Leon]

But do you really want to go with the opinion of some one that obviously
does not have hands on experience with actual use? Or some one that
actually uses the tools and and have determined that his findings are
irrelevant? ;~) Just saying... ;~)

[Jack]

He uses tools just to disassemble tools. He has tools he made (with
tools) and obviously knows how to use them. You can watch him actually
USE tools yet you make dumb ass statements like this. No surprise there...

[Jack]

Well, it is exactly what I said. What he said was comparing a HF to
Festool is stupid. THAT is a strawman. No one compared the tools, Leon
made the statement that Festools were good because pros use them. My
statement was pros use HF as well, so what. Further more, very few
"pro's" seem to use festool, more use HF, so that obviously proves
nothing at all, since HF is pretty much junk.

[Jack]

So you know all this about him yet haven't clicked on his "bait"? You
must know this guy, or are you just making crap up?

BTW, bait for what? You insinuate he earns a living doing these
video's? I'd be interested in your facts on this. I'm thinking most of
these guys make next to nothing doing this stuff.

[Leon]

Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 3/7/2018 12:51 PM, Markem wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 10:15:00 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/6/2018 9:32 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
>>>> If it was me, or only me and a trusted assistant I would buy Festool
>>>> for almost all my needs.
>>>> And yes, under those conditions I would take them out to a job site when needed.
>>>> The only tool I wouldn't buy that they make is their drills.
>>>> Too much value these days in the lifetime warranty (and recent
>>>> brushless models) for me to buy something else.
>>>>
>> Big Snip
>>>>
>>>> Comparing HF to Festool in just about anyway is just stupid.
>>>> One is a tool designed and manufactured to the highest tolerances for
>>>> dedicated woodworkers or exacting professionals, and one is a utility tool
>>>> that fits a certain need. I have never heard of a professional saying,
>>>> "man, one day I would really like to have one of those HF miter saws".
>>>>
>>>> Don't get this one...
>>>
>>> You don't get that the fact that you know "pro's" (yourself even) that
>>> uses HF tools does not infer that HF tools are great tools designed to
>>> last any more that a pro using a festering tool mean they are balls to
>>> the wall best tools ever made...
>>
>> You know Jack that is exactly what he said by my reading.
>>
>> YMMV I guess.
>

> snip

Leon made the statement that Festools were good because pros use them.

I made no such statement at all.
>

[Jack]

Just saying what? You sound like an endless festering tool commercial.
AVe said festering tools are well made, with a surprising couple of
weaknesses, which he points out, yet you cry like a baby. You say he
'trashes everything'. I recall watching about 4 of his videos, He
praised Hilti and Kitchen Aid, said lots of good things about a
festering tool, and trashed a HF drill, yet you attack him because he
pointed out a minor weakness or two in a festering tool.

Will wonders never cease.

[Leon]

I did say that he was funny, haha. There is some value in that I guess.

[Jack]

On 3/7/2018 10:38 AM, Leon wrote:

I humorously call them dude ranchers. Sometimes I even make myself laugh.

> I would say that I am some what of a pro, not full time pro, but I can
> easily afford Festool products. And I cannot afford to build as much as
> I do if I did not sell the vast majority of what I build. My material
> costs far exceeds my tools costs. I have been seriously wood working
> for 40 years and as a hobby since I was 10. I have a very good idea of
> what brand tools to buy. FWIW many of my tool purchases, since I
> bought my first Festool 11 years ago, have not been Festool. So you
> can't say that I am one of the ignorant that believes that every tool
> that a tool manufacturer makes is going to be top notch, that is just
> not a reality. BUT I have yet to have to replace any of my Festool
> tools which is not what I can say about any of the other brands that I
> have bought. For certain the sanders have out lived my PC sanders by a
> margin of 2 to 1, so far, and the Festool Sanders do more than my old PC
> sanders.
>
> As far as the click bait guy goes you can believe every thing he says
> since you seem drawn to a person that uses words that you probably
> cannot find in a dictionary. If you go to his YouTube videos and Click
> on the Dirty Secrets of a $1000 saw, "you" and "I" have both been
> victims of Click Bait. The saw in question costs no where near $1K,
> Today years later after annual price increases, the saw sells for just
> over half that price. I have the more expensive version and still paid
> nowhere near $1K.

Yes, I noticed the overreach on the saw price. Figured that was just
saying for an expensive saw, he was surprised. Actual price was not
that important, he wasn't giving a price quote. My Makita cost about
1/4th what a festering saw w/o accessories cost. Of course a festering
track saw with festering tracks and all, probably gets close. I think he
did use the track, mumbled something about it not needing clamped?

> FWIW it is just as easy to correctly spell a tool name as make up a
> derogatory name. Grow up, maybe you won't show your hand before you
> say anything.

Truth be told, I didn't make up the name, someone else gets the credit
for that. As for showing my hand before I say anything, good, I
wouldn't be posting anything if I wanted to hide "my hand" whatever that
might be.

[Jack]

Well, I said:
"He said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use and
abuse that a contractor would need."

And you replied:

"And yet pros have been using the Festool track saws for decades.."

I take that as saying festools are good because pros use them. What was
it you were trying to say with that statement?

[Leon]

Exactly what I said.

[Markem]

With you it really does not matter, if it does not fit your narrative.

[-MIKE-]

Both and neither. I usually want to get my own hands on something
before making a concrete judgment.
But I also trust the words of people I know who have and do use tools
the way I do on a regular basis, like you and Robert and Karl and other
friends not in here.
AND I trust what this guy has to say in the areas in which he obviously
has a lot of experience and knowledge. I don't know his entire
background or how much he uses or has used the tools. I can't see
someone who doesn't have a lot of firsthand experience with these tool
just deciding one day to start breaking them open and dissecting them.

I take it with a grain of salt, but I also have gotten some very good
info from his videos.

[Leon]

He seems to rearrange words and often gets confused.

[Leon]

Well, the more clicks he gets the more he gets paid.

>
> I take it with a grain of salt, but I also have gotten some very good
> info from his videos.

I totally understand that. He does have some interesting points of view
but many of the weak areas that he points to do not seem to matter. In
particular, the end cap of the track saw. Apparently the wrong kind of
plastic that could be broken. I suppose a better plastic would be
better if you are likely to take a hammer to that part or drop the saw.
But the plastic end cap is going to be the least of you worries if you
drop the saw on its end on a hard surface. It. like most any other
brand saw. will likely not cut true after that. The rubber hand grip on
the saw seems to be wrong too. If you spill a particular type of
solvent on it it will melt. Is that really a likely event and if it did
happen would it make the saw less functional?

I watched a video of him tearing apart a kitchen knife sharpener. His
was not a kind review of how the machine was constructed He seemed to
think the tiny internal fan was made out of the wrong plastic or
something like that. Does that matter if the fan cools the motor?
Irrelevant if the sharpener works for the few minutes you would use it
each day. My dad has a similar style sharpener. The issue with it that
I have is that it is too slooooooow. I did not watch enough of the
video to see if he actually gave a review of how it actually performed.

FWIW I think he, myself, and you could find something, that we feel
might be a problem, with most anything, But in long term use proves to
not be an issue. I believe a proven track record far outweighs any one
persons personal view.

Now if he offered a better design that would eliminate a known problem
he might be more interesting to me. But so far what he thinks to be
problems areas do not manifest to be problems, at least with the Festool
track saw.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Thursday, 8 March 2018 10:24:20 UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

> Both and neither. I usually want to get my own hands on something
> before making a concrete judgment.
> But I also trust the words of people I know who have and do use tools
> the way I do on a regular basis, like you and Robert and Karl and other
> friends not in here.

I agree. And at this point in my career I tend to have a different set of criteria I use and have scribbled about it endlessly here. Years ago (OK, maybe 20+) I realized that I am a business man with a developed skill set. No so much the craftsman/artisan/artist I aspired to be in my youth. With an eye towards utility, I always consider who is giving me their opinion and what their level of use is to form that opinion. So many of my fellow contractors are tired of poor performing, short lasting tools that we all respond with "well, it works great now, but I have only had it for a while", or "it's OK". The last tool I got excited about was the Ridgid 18V brushless drill/driver + impact tool combo. That was about a year ago.

So we all have an agreement: if it works well for me, it might not work well for you. If I recommend it, then don't cry to me if it is a failure for you.

> AND I trust what this guy has to say in the areas in which he obviously
> has a lot of experience and knowledge. I don't know his entire
> background or how much he uses or has used the tools. I can't see
> someone who doesn't have a lot of firsthand experience with these tool
> just deciding one day to start breaking them open and dissecting them.
>
> I take it with a grain of salt, but I also have gotten some very good
> info from his videos.

Agree again. Regardless of whether we agree on testing methods, rendered opinions, or any faulty premise we see, there is something to be learned from someone that goes that far in depth. Some of the findings are of value, and some are not. So his voice joins the choir when making a purchase decision.

I am a self confessed knife nut. I have a lot by most people's standards, but just about the right amount for my tastes. You guys should see the "test" videos to see how "tough" guys decide a knife should be. They use folding knives to cut bolts, chop down small trees (talking about folding knives!), split wood, and they smash the locking device on the lockers until they fail.

The testers feel they have accomplished something when the knife fails after being hammered on (literally), wrenched back and forth to try to break the blade, and gets dull quickly when cutting grit embedded material. Someone has to remind them that knives are made to slice and cut, that's it. Because some of the knife designs are so tough these days, they can take it to an extent.

But after watching many of the "test" videos, I realized that their aim was to find the deficiencies of the product and push it to a dramatic failure. Real world testing and use just doesn't cut it anymore. Sound familiar?

Robert

[Leon]

Sounds very familiar. Assessments on aspects that do not matter are
more in focus than intended performance.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 21:33:55 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

Ayup!

>The guy's has turned a hobby into a pretty decent part time job.
>As someone who's gotten regular direct deposits from Youtube for my
>content, I wish I had the followers and plays that he has.

I can sleep at night (well, not so much lately but...)

>He's providing pretty entertaining and educational content and getting
>paid pretty well for it. You condescending and ignorantly ask if he has
>nothing better to do with his life?

I believe I was talking about the dummies who are paying for his fun
by taking the bait.

>What would you prefer he do with his spare time? Watch TV all night?
>How much do you get paid for bitching about guys putting videos on
>YouTube?

He's fine. He understands his audience. I don't even blame Colbert.
;-)

[k...@notreal.com]

As always, you talk a lot but are completely ignorant. Seems to be
your MO.

>
>BTW, bait for what? You insinuate he earns a living doing these
>video's? I'd be interested in your facts on this. I'm thinking most of
>these guys make next to nothing doing this stuff.

I insinuate nothing. The *FACT* is that he gets paid for clicks. That
can't be denied. Well, I guess an idiot can deny anything.

[Jack]

Maroon!

[Jack]

Bull! I quoted exactly what you said, no word rearrangement. Feel free
to explain what you meant when you replied, and I quote:

"And yet pros have be using the Festool track saws for decades.."

If it was not saying festering tools are good because pros use them,
then what was it you were mumbling?

[Leon]

Jeez Jack

You said,

He said the festering TS 55 is not designed for continuous use and abuse
that a contractor would need.

I responded,

"And yet pros have be using the Festool track saws for decades.."

So to put that /my comment into words you might understand.
My comment was in contrast to the opinion that the saw is not designed for
continuous use and abuse that a contractor would need. Because pros have
been using Festool track saws for decades it is not a stretch of the
imagination to realize that the saws have indeed been holding up for
continuous use and abuse by contractors for decades.

Then some where you said,

I take that as saying festools are good because pros use them

YOU misinterpreted my comment and added good because pros use them. I
never said they are good because pros use them. I simply said pros have
been using them for decades.

Do you think pros would be using, for decades, a saw brand that did not
hold up to the use and abuse of a contractor?

YOU are the one that said you took the comment, the fact that contractors
have been using the saws for decades, to mean they were good.

[Markem]

In response to tool reviewers statement that it is not a pro tool, so
you keep on yur track.

[k...@notreal.com]

Dumbshit!

[Brewster]

On 3/5/18 12:26 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

> IIRC, he was concerned about one bearing on the saw, but he was also
> very impressed with the Festool casting and machining and took a lot of
> time to point it out and offered many compliments.
>
>


That bearing caught my interest. He was correct in that helical gears
produce thrust forces, but I believe the thrust is against the inboard
bushing and not the bearing (I'll have to watch again to confirm).

The comment about the stator windings not being better protected and the
pinched wire were eye openers.

-BR

[Jack]

OK, you win, you were not saying festering tools are good, but durable.
Pros use them because they are durable. My mistake, didn't know you
were going to split hairs...

So if "pro's" using a tool proves they are durable (not good but
durable) then it follows that HF tools are durable because Pro's use
them? Moreover, since more pro's use HF tools, and Bosch tools, and
Ridgid tools than Festering tools, then all those must be more durable
than festools. Is that what you were saying? Sounds lame whether you
use the word good or durable.

I'd rather take Vhe's teardown where he gave Festering tools a rather
good review, pointing out strengths and weaknesses, than the fact lots
of pro's use HF tools so they must be durable. In fact, Vhe's review of
a HF drill he says they should last about as long as their 90 day
warranty, or something like that, so pro's using them doesn't cut it
with him either.

Personally, I think most HF tools are just as good as any other tools,
just their life expectancy is nil. I'd bet money I can drill a really
good hole with a HF drill, just not a lot of them, so the tool is good,
just not durable...

So if you want to drill a good hole, buy the cheapest tool you can find,
probably HF. If you want good and durable to drill endless holes, buy
the most expensive tool you can find, probably a Hilti. If you want in
between, go for Bosch, Rigid Makita etc.

BTW, a cursory look at Vhe teardown of the silly Bosch toy chainsaw tool
the comit posted seemed to be good as far as build goes. So there is yet
another review of his that was not just trashing tools, like you
inferred he does. In fact, the Hilti, the Kitchen Aid, the Festool and
Bosch reviews were good, the HF was not good. 4 out of 5 ain't bad.

[Jack]

The tool reviewer never used the word "Pro" He said not designed for
continuous use and abuse a contractor wood need, so you keep splitting
hairs

[Markem]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:44:38 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:

>The tool reviewer never used the word "Pro" He said not designed for
>continuous use and abuse a contractor wood need, so you keep splitting
>hairs

You keep laying them out so nicely to be split.

[Leon]

I won nothing, this was not a contest. I was not splitting hairs, I was
pretty up front.

I did not say durable either. I said something like, Some one said
the saw would not hold up to contractors use. Festool has been selling
the saw to pro's/contractors for 40 plus years. "You" probably have to
think about that to get from A to B.

>
> So if "pro's" using a tool proves they are durable (not good but
> durable) then it follows that HF tools are durable because Pro's use
> them?  Moreover, since more pro's use HF tools, and Bosch tools, and
> Ridgid tools than Festering tools, then all those must be more durable
> than festools. Is that what you were saying?  Sounds lame whether you
> use the word good or durable.

Jack you are making stuff up. It is not complicated. The saws have
been used by pros for decades. A reasonable assumption is that the saws
are likely to be holding up.

That is all I was commenting on. Try to stay on that and not read into
my comments something you would like to argue about.

>
> I'd rather take Vhe's teardown where he gave Festering tools a rather
> good review, pointing out strengths and weaknesses, than the fact lots
> of pro's use HF tools so they must be durable. In fact, Vhe's review of
> a HF drill he says they should last about as long as their 90 day
> warranty, or something like that, so pro's using them doesn't cut it
> with him either.

That does not make him or his reviews credible. Things he points out as
deficiencies with the products he reviews are not always a concern in
the long run. In the real world and with real world use the things he
seems concerned about may not be an issue. I'm surprised he is not
impressed or unimpressed by the color of a product.

You seem to be impressed by him and if that makes you happy, good for you.

>
> Personally, I think most HF tools are just as good as any other tools,
> just their life expectancy is nil.  I'd bet money I can drill a really
> good hole with a HF drill, just not a lot of them, so the tool is good,
> just not durable...

Well I think you certainly seem to have an understanding of the words
good and also durable.

>
> So if you want to drill a good hole, buy the cheapest tool you can find,
> probably HF.  If you want good and durable to drill endless holes, buy
> the most expensive tool you can find, probably a Hilti.  If you want in
> between, go for Bosch, Rigid Makita etc.

You seem to be fascinated with holes! Buy what makes you happy when
drilling your hole or holes.

>
> BTW, a cursory look at Vhe teardown of the silly Bosch toy chainsaw tool
> the comit posted seemed to be good as far as build goes. So there is yet
> another review of his that was not just trashing tools, like you
> inferred he does.  In fact, the Hilti, the Kitchen Aid, the Festool and
> Bosch reviews were good, the HF was not good.  4 out of 5 ain't bad.

Still I find his reviews irrelevant. Maybe you need a starting point
for making a decision on what you would consider buying.

I'm using experience with the actual brands and tools that I work with.

[Jack]

You are splitting hairs.

> I did not say durable either. I said something like, Some one said
> the saw would not hold up to contractors use. Festool has been selling
> the saw to pro's/contractors for 40 plus years. "You" probably have to
> think about that to get from A to B.

>> So if "pro's" using a tool proves they are durable (not good but
>> durable) then it follows that HF tools are durable because Pro's use
>> them? Moreover, since more pro's use HF tools, and Bosch tools, and
>> Ridgid tools than Festering tools, then all those must be more durable
>> than festools. Is that what you were saying? Sounds lame whether you
>> use the word good or durable.
>
> Jack you are making stuff up. It is not complicated. The saws have
> been used by pros for decades. A reasonable assumption is that the saws
> are likely to be holding up.

So, you were not saying festering tools are "good" because some pro's
use them. They are not durable because some pro's use them, but they
"hold up" because some pro's use them. Well in the words of Steve
Martin: EXCUSE ME!


I didn't make up that pro's have been using HF tools for years. I didn't
make up that HF tools are not good, I mean durable. One does not
necessarily follow the other, so you saying it has no meaning, even
less meaning when you realize more pro's use HF tools than Festools, or
that more pro's use Ridged, Bosch, Mikita and probably most any named
tool more than Festool. Is it reasonable then to assume that all these
tools, including HF tools are likely to be holding up?

> That is all I was commenting on. Try to stay on that and not read into
> my comments something you would like to argue about.

When I read your arguments I have to read into them what the words say.
When you argue about what I say, or claim I twist your words around, I
sometimes enjoy arguing back, otherwise I would not respond to your
arguments. How about you, why do you like to argue this crap?

>> I'd rather take Vhe's teardown where he gave Festering tools a rather
>> good review, pointing out strengths and weaknesses, than the fact lots
>> of pro's use HF tools so they must be durable. In fact, Vhe's review
>> of a HF drill he says they should last about as long as their 90 day
>> warranty, or something like that, so pro's using them doesn't cut it
>> with him either.
>
> That does not make him or his reviews credible. Things he points out as
> deficiencies with the products he reviews are not always a concern in
> the long run. In the real world and with real world use the things he
> seems concerned about may not be an issue. I'm surprised he is not
> impressed or unimpressed by the color of a product.
>
> You seem to be impressed by him and if that makes you happy, good for you.
>
>
>>
>> Personally, I think most HF tools are just as good as any other tools,
>> just their life expectancy is nil. I'd bet money I can drill a really
>> good hole with a HF drill, just not a lot of them, so the tool is
>> good, just not durable...
>
> Well I think you certainly seem to have an understanding of the words
> good and also durable.
>
>
>>
>> So if you want to drill a good hole, buy the cheapest tool you can
>> find, probably HF. If you want good and durable to drill endless
>> holes, buy the most expensive tool you can find, probably a Hilti. If
>> you want in between, go for Bosch, Rigid Makita etc.
>
> You seem to be fascinated with holes! Buy what makes you happy when
> drilling your hole or holes.

Fascinated watching you claim there is some big difference between a
tool being good, durable or holding up.

For your enlightenment, "durable" and "holding up" are exactly the same,
and good is a reasonable description of a tool that is durable/ "holds
up" for anyone not splitting hairs...

>> BTW, a cursory look at Vhe teardown of the silly Bosch toy chainsaw
>> tool the comit posted seemed to be good as far as build goes. So there
>> is yet another review of his that was not just trashing tools, like
>> you inferred he does. In fact, the Hilti, the Kitchen Aid, the
>> Festool and Bosch reviews were good, the HF was not good. 4 out of 5
>> ain't bad.
>
> Still I find his reviews irrelevant. Maybe you need a starting point
> for making a decision on what you would consider buying.

True, I certainly would never spend $700 on a shop vac w/o some
investigation.

> I'm using experience with the actual brands and tools that I work with.

And your actual experience perfectly matches what AVe said in his
festool review. I'm not surprised, his reviews seem rather complete.

[Leon]

[Jerry Osage]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:32:13 -0800 (PST), "nailsh...@aol.com"
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote:

>Comparing HF to Festool in just about anyway is just stupid. One is a tool designed and manufactured to the highest tolerances for dedicated woodworkers or exacting professionals, and one is a utility tool that fits a certain need. I have never heard of a professional saying, "man, one day I would really like to have one of those HF miter saws".
>

I fail to understand all the animosity for Festool unless it boils down
to: "I can't afford them therefore I will disparage them."

The best I can tell from reading here and talking to owner/users of
Festool tools they have no complaints except perhaps for the initial
cost.

If I was 40 years younger, and setting up a woodworking hobby shop my
go-to brand would be Festool. And, 40 years later the tools might be
antiquated but I'd be willing to bet that they would still be working -
and, if not, Festool would be happy to repair them...
--

Jerry O.

[-MIKE-]

On 3/16/18 4:44 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
> I fail to understand all the animosity for Festool unless it boils down
> to: "I can't afford them therefore I will disparage them."

BINGO!

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:44:15 -0500, Jerry...@invalid.net (Jerry
Osage) wrote:

>On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:32:13 -0800 (PST), "nailsh...@aol.com"
><nailsh...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Comparing HF to Festool in just about anyway is just stupid. One is a tool designed and manufactured to the highest tolerances for dedicated woodworkers or exacting professionals, and one is a utility tool that fits a certain need. I have never heard of a professional saying, "man, one day I would really like to have one of those HF miter saws".
>>
>I fail to understand all the animosity for Festool unless it boils down
>to: "I can't afford them therefore I will disparage them."

By Jove! I think he's got it!

>The best I can tell from reading here and talking to owner/users of
>Festool tools they have no complaints except perhaps for the initial
>cost.

I earned a long time back that when you buy the best, you only cry
once.

>
>If I was 40 years younger, and setting up a woodworking hobby shop my
>go-to brand would be Festool. And, 40 years later the tools might be
>antiquated but I'd be willing to bet that they would still be working -
>and, if not, Festool would be happy to repair them...

I'm not 40 years younger (I couldn't afford them 40 years ago) but I
bought mine because they had something to offer that I wanted more
than the cash.

[Jerry Osage]

My father, and his brothers, were cabinet makers. Other relatives were
carpenters/house builders. I was pretty well versed in cabinet making.
However. perhaps because of the experience I wanted a job where I wore a
suit and spent a lot of time behind a desk. Then go home and garden and
make sawdust

I never wanted to take it beyond a hobby - however I wanted quality
tools. Cry once and get on with it. "How do you justify all this stuff?"
"I wanted it, we could afford it, and my wife said OK - that's all the
justification I needed."

The only complaints I see or hear about Festool tools - from Festool
owners - is the price. Never once have I heard: "It's a crappy tool, it
does crappy work, repeatability sucks, and it is always breaking down."

What I hear is: "they are great tools and they are expensive, however,
if you have the coin and can justify spending it, you'll be glad you
did. And I agree.
--

Jerry O.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:50:32 -0500, Jerry...@invalid.net (Jerry

Exactly. Hobbies don't need justification beyond "because I want it".
Of course, there are priorities. SWMBO gives me a ration about "green
stuff" but really doesn't care. We were at Highland today (it's my
lollypop after the doc does his thing - it's a mile or two from the
hospital) and I was eyeing a $3K lathe, just to pump her up a bit. She
just said, no problem, but reminded me that I couldn't lift more than
10lbs. There's always next time. ;-)

>
>The only complaints I see or hear about Festool tools - from Festool
>owners - is the price. Never once have I heard: "It's a crappy tool, it
>does crappy work, repeatability sucks, and it is always breaking down."

I did hear some grumbles on FOG about Kapex failures but that's about
it.

>What I hear is: "they are great tools and they are expensive, however,
>if you have the coin and can justify spending it, you'll be glad you
>did. And I agree.

Yep. I couldn't believe how well the Rotex worked. Every sander,
including a Bosch, that I've bought has turned out to be a major PITA.
Not the Festools. Leon sure hooked a fish here.

[Leon]

On 3/16/2018 4:44 PM, Jerry Osage wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 18:32:13 -0800 (PST), "nailsh...@aol.com"
> <nailsh...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Comparing HF to Festool in just about anyway is just stupid. One is a tool designed and manufactured to the highest tolerances for dedicated woodworkers or exacting professionals, and one is a utility tool that fits a certain need. I have never heard of a professional saying, "man, one day I would really like to have one of those HF miter saws".
>>
> I fail to understand all the animosity for Festool unless it boils down
> to: "I can't afford them therefore I will disparage them."

You hit the nail on the head.

Although there are valid reasons for not buying Festool other than not
being able to afford them. Nailshooter has a very valid concern of the
tools walking off from the job site or a worker treating it like it was
an inexpensive and easy to replace tool.

[Leon]

Wait till you have your wife trained so that she does the buying. LOL.
Mine was instrumental in obtaining the Festool drill set, the FMT work
table, Kapex, and IIRC the last sander. But then again I have
encouraged her to invested as much if not more in her upstairs quilting
studio as I do in the shop. She has a certain robotic quilting long arm
machine that is beginning to pay for it self.

>>
>> The only complaints I see or hear about Festool tools - from Festool
>> owners - is the price. Never once have I heard: "It's a crappy tool, it
>> does crappy work, repeatability sucks, and it is always breaking down."
>
> I did hear some grumbles on FOG about Kapex failures but that's about
> it.
>
>> What I hear is: "they are great tools and they are expensive, however,
>> if you have the coin and can justify spending it, you'll be glad you
>> did. And I agree.
>
> Yep. I couldn't believe how well the Rotex worked. Every sander,
> including a Bosch, that I've bought has turned out to be a major PITA.
> Not the Festools. Leon sure hooked a fish here.
>
>

;~)

[Jerry Osage]

Very true. If I was in the business I would not consider Festool tools
as job site tools. Considering the risks there are better alternatives
available - perhaps even HF... Even those tools are likely to grow legs
if left unattended.
--

Jerry O.