Ping Swingman or Bldg contractors-remod specialists.

[OFWW]

Just had a major heart attack. Called a local remodel and bulldog
contractor for and preliminary estimate on a room extension of 3O5 SQ
FOOT for a living room joined to the house and roof line. less window
cost.

There is and entry way of about 21 sq foot.

Also to divide the existing living room up into two rooms by one 13 ft
7in wall install two windows and the necessary sheet rock and
electrical. which would be two outlets.

This flipping guy emails back a cost estimate of $305 per sq ft or and
I quote, ". You can see that the national average for a mid-range
family room is $80,765. It is even more expensive on the West coast,
($95,529).

Then he says, "If I multiplied that by $250 it comes to $76,250 which
is close to the national average."

Which one of us is off or wigs?

The original contractor I called guesstimated 10-12 thousand plus 1300
contingency monies. Which seems about right, even if it is a tad high.

Am I being unrealistic here?

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 21:07:12 -0700, OFWW <ofww1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Just had a major heart attack.

Hope you are having a good recovery.

>
>This flipping guy emails back a cost estimate of $305 per sq ft or and
>I quote, ". You can see that the national average for a mid-range
>family room is $80,765. It is even more expensive on the West coast,
>($95,529).
>
>Then he says, "If I multiplied that by $250 it comes to $76,250 which
>is close to the national average."
>
>Which one of us is off or wigs?

Maybe both of you. What are your specifications? The national
average has some rather large extremes and your specs can fall either
way.

I suspect a difference in price if the walls are hand cut granite
versus 2 x 4 with OSD and Saran Wrap.

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 8/19/2016 4:58 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 21:07:12 -0700, OFWW <ofww1...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>

[snip]

>>
>> Then he says, "If I multiplied that by $250 it comes to $76,250 which
>> is close to the national average."
>>
>> Which one of us is off or wigs?
>
> Maybe both of you. What are your specifications? The national
> average has some rather large extremes and your specs can fall either
> way.
>
> I suspect a difference in price if the walls are hand cut granite
> versus 2 x 4 with OSD and Saran Wrap.
>

+1

Devil is always in the details. Specs mean everything and OFWW just
hasn't provided enough info to judge the quote one way or the other.
What IS telling, however, is the one estimate he received - presumably
from someone in whom he confided all the specs and who may have even
viewed the current state of affairs. That has me leaning towards
agreeing with OFWW that his more recent bidder may be looking to cover
this years' overhead in one fell swoop. Still, if OFWW really wants
those 18k gold outlet covers and switch plates, who are we to argue?
They may look really snazzy with the rosewood baseboards and door
casings! <g>

[Greg Guarino]

On 8/19/2016 12:07 AM, OFWW wrote:
> This flipping guy emails back a cost estimate of $305 per sq ft or and
> I quote, ". You can see that the national average for a mid-range
> family room is $80,765. It is even more expensive on the West coast,
> ($95,529).
>
> Then he says, "If I multiplied that by $250 it comes to $76,250 which
> is close to the national average."

Keep in mind that I have no expertise in this area at all, but what
struck me was not so much the actual cost, but the way the contractor
computed/defended it. Unless you are omitting significant details, I see
no mention of any specifics.

It reminds me of some (alleged) painters that my wife and I were
recommended to when we were very young. They were parishioners at a
family member's church, a factor that was supposed to weigh in their
favor; evidence of their upright character.

They gave us a price that I can no longer remember, but it sure seemed
like a lot (in 1980s dollars) for a pretty small job. When we expressed
surprise and dismay at the cost, they defended the estimate, saying that
"*We asked professionals*, and they said this was the right amount to
charge."

Needless to say, we did the painting ourselves.

[dadiOH]

"Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:np78h2$ohi$1...@dont-email.me...

> Keep in mind that I have no expertise in this area at all, but what struck
> me was not so much the actual cost, but the way the contractor
> computed/defended it. Unless you are omitting significant details, I see
> no mention of any specifics.
>
> It reminds me of some (alleged) painters that my wife and I were
> recommended to when we were very young. They were parishioners at a family
> member's church, a factor that was supposed to weigh in their favor;
> evidence of their upright character.
>
> They gave us a price that I can no longer remember, but it sure seemed
> like a lot (in 1980s dollars) for a pretty small job. When we expressed
> surprise and dismay at the cost, they defended the estimate, saying that
> "*We asked professionals*, and they said this was the right amount to
> charge."

I tend to avoid those tradesmen who have signs like "Jesus is my crescent
wrench" or "Christ is my best bristle brush" because they seem to feel that
their piety gives them a license to steal. Sort of like gypsies.

[DerbyDad03]

I once got a roofing estimate from a contractor who told me right up
that his quote was going to be 20-30% higher than anyone else's. He
defended that by saying that they had the newest trucks in town and
special equipment that could get the material to the roof more efficiently
than anyone else. He said that he could save at least a half day, maybe
a whole day, on the job because his equipment was better.

Translation: I need you to help me re-coup the money I spent on the
equipment that will allow me to squeeze more roofing jobs into a week
than anyone else.

I politely sent him away in his brand new truck.

[OFWW]

Yeah, seems like there is a lot of those.

[woodchucker]

Similar thing here. A guy locally wanted to pass a law that anyone doing
driveway sealing had to use stainless containers. He wrote to the
newspaper explaining it. Because guys that did't were undercutting him,
and that it made for a higher quality product.

People writting in let him have it.

What a jerk.

--
Jeff

[OFWW]

It was supposed to be a close prelim quote to set up the direction we
all would go. They came and looked at the jobsite, I gave them a foot
print of the pertinent parts of the home and no load bearing walls
were to be removed.

Job would consist of stick and drywall. Plaster on the outside to
finish coat. Concrete slab for the new living room. Water line to the
house Relocated. The new living room would require new power, and the
inside finished and new roof tied into existing roof line. 16 1/2 feet
by 18 1/2 feet, roughed in for the bay window and an entry way. Just a
basic box is all that it is. Insulation to current code.

Kitchen
Move outside wall 26" to load bearing beam. window opening roughed it,
relocation of water piping and drain line, which would require busting
existing concrete and pouring new for the extension. Same finish
plaster as the rest, adding a couple electrical sockets, relocation of
one light.

Existing living room,
Install 13ft 7in wall, stick and drywall, two outlets, one each side.
rough in for windows, one each room, and enclose existing large
window. insulating outside walls

As to the windows, out glass guy will be supplying me the windows per
their spec'd size and the contractor installing them all except the
bay window which our glass guy needs to do for warranty purposes.
(lifetime)

and that is the basics of it.

I wasn't looking for a quote here since I am in Calif. just rough
pricing ideas.

My heart attack was the ridiculous high price, and coming out of a
price book no less, like the car dealers job quotes.

My electrical panel had more than enough room.

[OFWW]

He certainly had guts. no brains to speak of.

My wife who watches all the home rebuilding shows who otherwise knows
very little about such things was wondering what was with this guy.
Even she had an idea of what worst case scenario's would cost.

[Greg Guarino]

Well, what I was really getting at was that these guys - green enough to
need to *ask* professional what to charge - quoted us what
"professionals" allegedly charge.

I just got a quote for a concrete job. He was obviously working out the
job in his head. "It should take a week ... It'll take x yards... it's
1200 sq. ft ... I'll need the pumper truck for two days ... I'll do it
for $xxxx.xx That made me feel a little more like the price was based on
something.

[Swingman]

On 8/19/2016 9:07 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

> Devil is always in the details. Specs mean everything and OFWW just
> hasn't provided enough info to judge the quote one way or the other.

Spot on. The above is the most important " ...rest of the story" ... in
a nutshell.

The cost to take a structure through framing to dry-in is pretty basic
and relatively easy to calculate. It's what comes after that adds to the
cost.

And, when comparing bids, it is impossible to do it effectively until
you know the precise justification by the bidder, in materials, labor
and required specs, for a particular his bids dollar amount.

I never discount a higher bid out of hand until I get the bidder to
justify his bid, and explain to me, in detail, why it is higher, AKA,
why I should consider it.

And, you will often find that the higher bid might well be a much better
deal in overall quality.

I will say that I recently caused to be designed and engineered (and
actually permitted), a similar "room addition" to an existing residence
(including a structural slab tied into the exiting, as well as roof
tie-in) that was +/- 970 square feet room addition.

Just went back and looked at my spreadsheet, and the bid to do that job
was going to run in the neighborhood of +/- $147/sf, and a good deal of
that was in the foundation, because the existing foundation had a
history of issues.

Although I didn't end up doing the job for various reasons, I did get
the job completely permitted and felt at the time my initial rough
estimate would be pretty close for contract purposes.

That said, and despite the often large disparity in regional prices for
materials and labor, more than doubling the OP's mentioned high bid
seems pretty much out of line.


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Swingman]

On 8/19/2016 2:55 PM, Swingman wrote:

> Just went back and looked at my spreadsheet, and the bid to do that job
> was going to run in the neighborhood of +/- $147/sf, and a good deal of
> that was in the foundation, because the existing foundation had a
> history of issues.

Should have mentioned that there was no plumbing involved in the addition.

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 8/19/2016 2:55 PM, Swingman wrote:

> On 8/19/2016 9:07 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>
>> Devil is always in the details. Specs mean everything and OFWW just
>> hasn't provided enough info to judge the quote one way or the other.
>
> Spot on. The above is the most important " ...rest of the story" ... in
> a nutshell.
>
> The cost to take a structure through framing to dry-in is pretty basic
> and relatively easy to calculate. It's what comes after that adds to the
> cost.
>

[snip]

> Although I didn't end up doing the job for various reasons, I did get
> the job completely permitted and felt at the time my initial rough
> estimate would be pretty close for contract purposes.
>
> That said, and despite the often large disparity in regional prices for
> materials and labor, more than doubling the OP's mentioned high bid
> seems pretty much out of line.

Yep! When you have a disparity like that you know something is up so
it's reasonable that OFWW should be concerned (what with having a heart
attack and surviving it and all<G>). Then again we could also speculate
that the two folks he was dealing with were an idiot and a crook.
Figure out which is which and neither estimate is close to reality for
what OFWW wants done.<g>

[Bill]

OFWW wrote:
> My heart attack was the ridiculous high price, and coming out of a
> price book no less, like the car dealers job quotes.

Thanks for having the conversation here, I definitely learned a few
things (that are nice to know)!

Speaking of car dealers: While having other work done at the Buick
dealer, I asked them to repair the "glove compartment latch"--which I
had already removed. They said it would be $100 for the part and $60
labor, and I would have to come back because they didn't have it in
stock. I mentioned that I had seen the part for less than half of that
online, and offered them $100 for the replacement, but they declined. I
got it for $32 on ebay and replaced the 3 screws myself... It took a
little fiddling to move the lock cylinder from the old one to the new
one, but it could be done in a minute. Charging upwards of 30K for a new
car, I might think they might replace a part like that as a courtesy so
that the customer returns to them when it's time for a new car... they
(apparently) know better...

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/19/2016 8:01 PM, Bill wrote:

> Speaking of car dealers: While having other work done at the Buick
> dealer, I asked them to repair the "glove compartment latch"--which I
> had already removed. They said it would be $100 for the part and $60
> labor, and I would have to come back because they didn't have it in
> stock. I mentioned that I had seen the part for less than half of that
> online, and offered them $100 for the replacement, but they declined. I
> got it for $32 on ebay and replaced the 3 screws myself... It took a
> little fiddling to move the lock cylinder from the old one to the new
> one, but it could be done in a minute. Charging upwards of 30K for a new
> car, I might think they might replace a part like that as a courtesy so
> that the customer returns to them when it's time for a new car... they
> (apparently) know better...
>
>

Never had a dealer do anything for free. It is not just $160, don't
forget the added charge for hazardous materials disposal they like to
slip in. Check their price to install a cabin filter you can buy for
$10 and install in five minutes. Most get around $60.

[OFWW]

On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 15:05:20 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 8/19/2016 2:55 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
>> Just went back and looked at my spreadsheet, and the bid to do that job
>> was going to run in the neighborhood of +/- $147/sf, and a good deal of
>> that was in the foundation, because the existing foundation had a
>> history of issues.
>
>Should have mentioned that there was no plumbing involved in the addition.

I looked as the last guys pdf, thought it might have been a
guesstimate. Naw, it was from some re modelers mag on average costs
and list various things like kitchen remod, room extensions, garage
doors and the like, and what the percentage of return was.

Had supposed averages from various sections of the country.

According to it, my major kitchen remod would cost 54,000 bucks with a
77% ROI. When it is done I will have spent far less than 3,000 so I
guess when I do sell the house I am going to owe you guys a lot of
money from the huge profit I'll make. ;) Plus the fun of doing it.

Anyone that would have the gall to enclose something like that in
there basic denial of giving a bid is nuts.

I recently had the roof redone with good materials and a 40 year
warranty, and part of that is now throw away, but for three walls, a
concrete pad, extended Roof and basic outlets in the wall and using
just that part of the job for his rough estimate is out of line.

I think I am going to reply to him and let him know I didn't want
marble floor, walls and pillars with embedded gold threads running
through it.

Looks like I'll be going with the first guy I called, I saw his ROM
spreadsheet and I'd say he is in the ball park as a GC, and a nice
older guy to boot.

[krw]

On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 14:55:29 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 8/19/2016 9:07 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>
>> Devil is always in the details. Specs mean everything and OFWW just
>> hasn't provided enough info to judge the quote one way or the other.
>
>Spot on. The above is the most important " ...rest of the story" ... in
>a nutshell.

Sure, the devil is always in the details. But... I'd think $300/ft^2
was astronomical, too. New construction goes for something around
$100/ft^2, and around here, that includes the land - a couple of
acres. I understand that it's more expensive to add than to build
from scratch and 300 ft^2 isn't a whole house (smaller jobs cost
more). OTOH, I didn't see mention of a kitchen or bathroom in there,
either.

But what do I know. You do this for a living. ;-)

[krw]

On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 08:50:53 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

A few decades ago, we needed Roto Rooter out to clean the sewer line.
The guy justified his price ($150 in the mid 80s, IIRC) by saying that
his power auger cost $5000. OK, that computer on the desk cost $5000,
too and his truck in the driveway cost more than both. It's a cost of
doing business.

[Bill]

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Check their price to install a cabin filter you can buy for $10 and
> install in five minutes. Most get around $60.

I don't even ask. I do air filters. I replaced my serpentine belt this
summer--my neighbor talks like I am "cheating" the system, depriving
someone of his or her livelihood...

[Leon]

On 8/18/2016 11:07 PM, OFWW wrote:
> Just had a major heart attack. Called a local remodel and bulldog
> contractor for and preliminary estimate on a room extension of 3O5 SQ
> FOOT for a living room joined to the house and roof line. less window
> cost.
>
> There is and entry way of about 21 sq foot.
>
> Also to divide the existing living room up into two rooms by one 13 ft
> 7in wall install two windows and the necessary sheet rock and
> electrical. which would be two outlets.
>
> This flipping guy emails back a cost estimate of $305 per sq ft or and
> I quote, ". You can see that the national average for a mid-range
> family room is $80,765. It is even more expensive on the West coast,
> ($95,529).

Double that number and you can but a new 2000+ sq.ft. home on a 7500 sq
ft lot. in the Houston area.

[Ed Pawlowski]

There are some really good dealers and independent shops but the auto
repair industry is loaded with sleazy shops too. I'm sure everyone here
has stories about them.

The money you cheated the dealer out of is better spent taking your wife
to dinner and enriching the restaurant staff.

[krw]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 00:35:00 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:

Does your neighbor work for a dealer? ;-)

Some cars are easy to work on, some next to impossible to do this sort
of thing. I've stopped doing any maintenance on my cars. I don't
have the time and I have other things I'd rather bust my knuckles on.

[krw]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:51:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>On 8/20/2016 12:35 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> Check their price to install a cabin filter you can buy for $10 and
>>> install in five minutes. Most get around $60.
>>
>> I don't even ask. I do air filters. I replaced my serpentine belt this
>> summer--my neighbor talks like I am "cheating" the system, depriving
>> someone of his or her livelihood...
>
>There are some really good dealers and independent shops but the auto
>repair industry is loaded with sleazy shops too. I'm sure everyone here
>has stories about them.

I don't know how sleazy ones stay in business because there are so
many good ones.

>The money you cheated the dealer out of is better spent taking your wife
>to dinner and enriching the restaurant staff.

Or buying a (Fes)tool. ;-)

[OFWW]

AMEN!

[Bill]

krw wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 00:35:00 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> Check their price to install a cabin filter you can buy for $10 and
>>> install in five minutes. Most get around $60.
>> I don't even ask. I do air filters. I replaced my serpentine belt this
>> summer--my neighbor talks like I am "cheating" the system, depriving
>> someone of his or her livelihood...
> Does your neighbor work for a dealer? ;-)

I witnessed him replacing some of his windows, with an assistant. I'm
just waiting for the right time to bring it up! ; ) Maybe I should
hand him an ad from the telephone book?

[krw]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 18:12:19 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:

Be prepared to duck. ;-)

[Bill]

Having recently heard the term, I think what he really has is "Rodney
Dangerfield Syndrome".... I think some medical people invented the term
for use in their discipline. It may loosely correspond with having a job
you hate. It's an interesting phenomenon, but not nearly as funny as
Rodney Dangerfield was (I liked him).

[krw]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 19:07:43 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>

I see a lot of people who hate their jobs. I think your "Rodney
Dangerfield Syndrome" may explain a lot, though it's not clear which
is the cause and effect. I'd guess that low esteem leads to hating
one's job (and everything else). If you don't like your job, find a
new one. Some will (can?) never be happy, though.

[Leon]

Is our neighbor an idiot? You will spend that money sometime or another.

[Leon]

On 8/20/2016 9:38 AM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:51:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:
>
>> On 8/20/2016 12:35 AM, Bill wrote:
>>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> Check their price to install a cabin filter you can buy for $10 and
>>>> install in five minutes. Most get around $60.
>>>
>>> I don't even ask. I do air filters. I replaced my serpentine belt this
>>> summer--my neighbor talks like I am "cheating" the system, depriving
>>> someone of his or her livelihood...
>>
>> There are some really good dealers and independent shops but the auto
>> repair industry is loaded with sleazy shops too. I'm sure everyone here
>> has stories about them.
>
> I don't know how sleazy ones stay in business because there are so
> many good ones.

Their customers haven't a clue.

>
>> The money you cheated the dealer out of is better spent taking your wife
>> to dinner and enriching the restaurant staff.
>
> Or buying a (Fes)tool. ;-)
>

Having a clue. ;~)

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 09:28:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

You wouldn't ever SAVE it, right? ;-)

[Leon]

There is that, but you save it to spend it.

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 11:10:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

Yeah, on things like food fifty years later. ;-)

I thought you were going to come back with the point that "saving" is
investing, which is even better than spending, economically speaking.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/20/2016 7:27 PM, krw wrote:

>
> I see a lot of people who hate their jobs. I think your "Rodney
> Dangerfield Syndrome" may explain a lot, though it's not clear which
> is the cause and effect. I'd guess that low esteem leads to hating
> one's job (and everything else). If you don't like your job, find a
> new one. Some will (can?) never be happy, though.
>

I know people that hate their job, but when asked why they don't change
you hear "the money is good" Money is important, but not everything.

If I had a job I did not like I would have retired 5 years ago, but
fortunately, I like what I do and the people I do it with. But I have
cut back to 3 days a week now.

[Bill]

krw wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 11:10:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/21/2016 10:05 AM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 09:28:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/19/2016 11:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>> Check their price to install a cabin filter you can buy for $10 and
>>>>>> install in five minutes. Most get around $60.
>>>>> I don't even ask. I do air filters. I replaced my serpentine belt this
>>>>> summer--my neighbor talks like I am "cheating" the system, depriving
>>>>> someone of his or her livelihood...
>>>>
>>>> Is our neighbor an idiot? You will spend that money sometime or another.
>>> You wouldn't ever SAVE it, right? ;-)
>>>
>> There is that, but you save it to spend it.
> Yeah, on things like food fifty years later. ;-)
>
> I thought you were going to come back with the point that "saving" is
> investing, which is even better than spending, economically speaking.

That's certainly not true in today's market. You practically have to
pay people to take your money--they (the banks) can basically get money
for free from the Fed. Obviously, the Fed wants you to spend--that's the
whole point of giving away money at 0% interest rate. I worry that if
and when it changes, we could see quick a dip from the DJIA at 18.5K.
Incidently, that side affect could really affect consumer
consumption/spending. I mean, people may stop eating! ; )

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:30:39 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>On 8/20/2016 7:27 PM, krw wrote:
>
>>
>> I see a lot of people who hate their jobs. I think your "Rodney
>> Dangerfield Syndrome" may explain a lot, though it's not clear which
>> is the cause and effect. I'd guess that low esteem leads to hating
>> one's job (and everything else). If you don't like your job, find a
>> new one. Some will (can?) never be happy, though.
>>
>
>I know people that hate their job, but when asked why they don't change
>you hear "the money is good" Money is important, but not everything.

Yeah, I've been there too. The last five years of one job were awful
(the first fifteen or twenty were great, then it went downhill) but
there are always other jobs that pay well. It might take some work or
a venture outside the comfort zone to get there. In my case, I had to
move (ended up being three times in four years) but found an even
better place to be.

The bigger problem is that some will never be happy.

>If I had a job I did not like I would have retired 5 years ago, but
>fortunately, I like what I do and the people I do it with. But I have
>cut back to 3 days a week now.

I told my wife that I'd retire if my job was no longer fun. She told
me that it had better be fun until at least next summer (mortgage paid
off). ;-)

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 17:20:04 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:

That's arguable, but you have a point. If you look at the economy as
a whole, saving is better than spending. Though when everyone is
spending (what they don't have) like a drunken sailor, including
government, maybe it is better to become a prepper and invest in
freeze-dried food. Stock plenty of ammo, too! ;-)

The bottom line is that you have to diversify pretty widely, right
now. I still don't think it's as bad as it was in the late '70s. The
"misery index" said it all. You could easily borrow money at
significantly lower interest than inflation. At least we're not that
upside-down, today.

The problem is going to be when interest does increase, the government
won't be *able* to pay the interest on the Obamadebt. Rates have been
artificially held down by things like QE1/2/3 but they can't go on
forever. The bill for Obamaspending will come due!

[Bill]

krw wrote:
> The bill for Obamaspending will come due!

From what I have heard, neither T nor H said anything about cutting
spending...

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 19:20:43 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:

T _has_ made some statements about people being able to (and should)
work for themselves. That's a start, but you're right in at least one
way. Both would challenge Obama for the deficit prize.

[J. Clarke]

In article <umbkrbtipi6h3l8cc...@4ax.com>,
k...@somewhere.com says...

Uh, why won't the government be able to pay the interest--did they issue
variable-rate bonds?

[krw]

It's almost all in short-term bonds. Clinton started the conversion
from 20 and 30-year bonds to hide the cost of his debt. Not wanting
to be caught with the potato, everyone after did the same.

[woodchucker]

Actually with the dollar's value ever lowering, it's probably better to
spend it now.

And if you believe that things will crash again shortly, better to spend
it now, while it is worth something.

Glass half empty.

--
Jeff

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 22:13:35 -0400, woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:

If you believe it's all going to crash that hard, invest in food and
ammunition. *Nothing* else will matter.

[Unknown]

woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:js-dnY04lqJMwifK...@ptd.net:

You've got a good point. Just saving your money costs 2-3% a year in
inflation, unless you invest it somewhere to match or exceed that.
Trouble is, it's hard to do that if you don't already have a bunch of it.

There's also saving disguised as spending. Consider this: A top quality
tool will last decades and you get to enjoy all the benefits of the top
quality tool: better quality cords, reduced noise, etc. A junk tool will
last 2-3 years and you'll either replace it out of annoyance or it will
break.

Puckdropper

[J. Clarke]

In article <4clkrbpr8u845gfd4...@4ax.com>,

(1) The maturity term of government debt has been increaing for a while
and is well above historical averages.
(2) How does issuing short term bonds "hide the cost"?

[J. Clarke]

In article <knokrbhfkf9f34ckl...@4ax.com>,
k...@somewhere.com says...

If you don't have a defensible position the food and ammunition won't do
you a damned bit of good.

A typical wood-frame suburban residence is not a "defensible position".

[woodchucker]

Agreed. But that will only last so long.
And I don't have a fort.

--
Jeff

[Leon]

Theoretically if the government could pay the interest rates they could
pay down the debt.

But the government will be able to pay the interest, it will print more
money and the value of the dollar will drop so that every one pays.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/21/2016 10:13 PM, woodchucker wrote:

>
> And if you believe that things will crash again shortly, better to spend
> it now, while it is worth something.
>
> Glass half empty.
>

Why would the market crash? After all, we have an important election
and we'll have a new President!

[woodchucker]

Need I say more. 2 useless A holes. An egotistical maniac , and a super
bitch on wheels, who has rubbed out anyone who has dirt on her. She
belongs in prison. 14,900 new emails, that her lawyers want to wait
until Oct 14th to start releasing. Seems a little suspicious to me.

What we need is a strong personality that will do no further harm to
this country. Someone who'll think before they speak. Someone that is
out for themselves..

Never going to happen.

--
Jeff

[Ed Pawlowski]

I'm thinking of cashing out my 401k and hiding it under the mattress.
At least it may have the buying power of 10 cents on the dollar as
opposed to what the market may be like.

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 23:25:09 -0400, "J. Clarke"

Lower interest rates.

[krw]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 10:26:34 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

A tax on savings. What a great idea.

[krw]

They won't do you any good if you don't have them, either.

[krw]

Then buy gold, or better yet, silver (easier to protect). If things
go South, it'll increase in value. If not, you won't have zero.