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Mortising and tenoning doors and windows

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J. Clarke

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Sep 11, 2016, 6:43:05 PM9/11/16
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The time has come to start fixing windows and doors. Some are coming
apart, some are rotting, some are just busted (it's amazing how much
damage an ice dam falling 20 feet onto a window air conditioner can do).

The house has 15 double-hung windows, three exterior doors, and 6
interior doors. The garage adds two windows and three doors (excluding
the main garage door).

So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
storm door and a screen.

Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.

So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
all done before I'm dead).

Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw, Sawzall,
belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric impact driver.
Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools. Bench with
pattern vise.

Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

So, thoughts?


J. Clarke

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Sep 11, 2016, 6:56:53 PM9/11/16
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In article <MPG.323fa8042...@news.eternal-september.org>,
j.clark...@gmail.com says...
Sorry to reply to myself, but tools, in addition, jointer and planer--
the jointer is probably going to have to be upgraded.

Bill

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Sep 11, 2016, 6:57:38 PM9/11/16
to
J. Clarke wrote

That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

I see the options as:
Big Domino
Little Domino
Leigh FMT Pro
Leigh FMT Super
Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
cuts
Something else I haven't thought of

Or possibly more than one of the above.

So, thoughts?


I hope that you've done something like this before, and it sounds like
you have! I wish you luck with your (big) project! Maybe you could
invite Leon for a visit--he seems to LIKE big projects! ; )

Bill
>

Leon

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Sep 11, 2016, 7:31:32 PM9/11/16
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The big Domino for these repairs although you could probably get away
with the smaller Domino assuming the parts are repairable. You can use
up to a 10mm floating tennon with the smaller one. And you are much
more likely to use the smaller one after this is behind you. BUT you
are limited to about 2" tenons with the small one, 1" might not be
enough reach to get through decorative joinery.


If the joints are the only issue the Domino may be all you need, and a
vac to hook up to it.

Take one of your windows to your local Festool Dealer and have them show
you how it is done.

krw

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Sep 11, 2016, 7:33:35 PM9/11/16
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While I'd love to have an FMT Super (? the cast version), I'd go with
the little Domino, particularly since time is important to you.


>

Ed Pawlowski

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Sep 11, 2016, 8:10:57 PM9/11/16
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On 9/11/2016 6:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

> So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
> doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
> storm door and a screen.
>
> Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
> to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.
>
> So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
> that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
> all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
> all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
> good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
> all done before I'm dead).

It would be much easier to give a recommendation if you gave complete
information. You left out when you plan to die.

I commend you on doing this project though, much more than I'm willing
to tackle. Recently had a triple window installed in the living room
and tomorrow he is coming to measure five more for bedrooms that I want
done before winter. Marvin New Generation windows and Azek trim outside
so no more painting!

Post some photos when you get it underway.

Ed Pawlowski

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Sep 11, 2016, 8:12:45 PM9/11/16
to
On 9/11/2016 8:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Marvin New Generation windows and Azek trim outside
> so no more painting!

NEXT Generation

Keith Nuttle

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Sep 11, 2016, 10:26:50 PM9/11/16
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On 09/11/2016 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
>> plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
>> assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
>> the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
>> incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
>> ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.

You do not mention anything about the window tracks and other assessors
that will be needed to install the all of those items.

If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
hobby is.

I would assume that to cut, mill, and glue together nearly a month of 8
hours days to make them. Plus some time to install them. You are not
only making a huge investment in materials but also a large investment
of your time.

While wood working may be your hobby, with that large of commitment it
will become work. And since you will be your own boss, your boss will
not take kindly if you slip off for some other activity before they are
done.

J. Clarke

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Sep 12, 2016, 6:43:21 AM9/12/16
to
In article <nr53p0$15tn$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Keith_...@sbcglobal.net
says...
>
> On 09/11/2016 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
> >> plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
> >> assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
> >> the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
> >> incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
> >> ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.
>
> You do not mention anything about the window tracks and other assessors
> that will be needed to install the all of those items.

Repairs to the tracks as needed are included. If I don't stick with the
original tracks, jambliners don't even make a dent in the incidentals
allowance.

> If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
> for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
> hobby is.

The "rec" in "rec.woodworking", if you did not already know, stands for
"recreation". Need I say more?

> I would assume that to cut, mill, and glue together nearly a month of 8
> hours days to make them. Plus some time to install them. You are not
> only making a huge investment in materials but also a large investment
> of your time.

No shit? Sherlock.

I'm from the "We choose to do this, and the other things, not because
they are easy but because they are hard . . ." generation.

Spread over weekends, that's 15 weekends or a year and a third--say
three years. That gives me something to do weekends other than
stagnate, which is a net benefit.

> While wood working may be your hobby, with that large of commitment it
> will become work. And since you will be your own boss, your boss will
> not take kindly if you slip off for some other activity before they are
> done.

Which is between me and myself.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

dpb

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Sep 12, 2016, 9:30:01 AM9/12/16
to
On 09/11/2016 5:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

> So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
> doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
> storm door and a screen.
>
> Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
> to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.
>
> So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints....

"Old-school" and my recommendation is the traditional full-length
one-piece tenon cut with stub spindle on shaper. If many of the windows
are of the same size, one can cut as many rails/stiles/muntins to length
in one operation as the material stock is wide-enough to allow, then
"stick" the ends before ripping to width and running the matching
moulding on sides. It is a quite efficient operation; see the old
Rockwell/Delta "Using the Shaper" book (there are at least a couple pdf
copies linked to at OWWM site) for a very detailed description of the
process.

Being as it's not so easy to find the stub spindles and matching cutters
for smaller shapers any more, but CMT and Amana and perhaps some others
now make router bit sets for the purpose, I'd suggest that route as most
efficient/cost effective.

Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 10:00:57 AM9/12/16
to
On 9/11/2016 9:26 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
> On 09/11/2016 6:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> Budget. Andersons from Home Depot are going to cost me around $17,000
>>> plus installation. I figure that using cypress and double-glazed glass
>>> assemblies purchased online for the windows and cypress and Lexan for
>>> the storms, I'm at about 12K with a reasonable allowance for waste and
>>> incidentals. That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
>>> ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.
>
> You do not mention anything about the window tracks and other assessors
> that will be needed to install the all of those items.
>
> If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
> for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
> hobby is.

It is wise to stay out of debt once you get out.

Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 10:03:34 AM9/12/16
to
On 9/11/2016 7:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/11/2016 6:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> So this works out if I've calculated correctly, to 17 windows and 12
>> doors. Each window and six of the doors will need a storm window or
>> storm door and a screen.
>>
>> Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add up
>> to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.
>>
>> So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints. Note
>> that I'm 63 and retirement isn't going to happen any time soon so this
>> all has to fit around work and I'm not as spry as I used to be--doing it
>> all with a Japanese saw and a good set of chisels, while it would be
>> good for the soul, isn't going to fit the schedule (I'd like to have it
>> all done before I'm dead).
>
> It would be much easier to give a recommendation if you gave complete
> information. You left out when you plan to die.

Well if you die, the job is over. ;~)



John McCoy

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Sep 12, 2016, 10:09:14 AM9/12/16
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.323fa8042...@news.eternal-september.org:


> Doing all this right and old-school, I figure that it's going to add
> up to something like 484 mortise and tenon joints.
>
> So, the question is what's the best way to approach those joints.

> Now, existing equipment--router table with 3 HP router and Incra jig.
> 10" Radial Arm Saw. 10" table saw. 14" extended band saw. Radial
> drill press. Oscillating belt sander. 1.5 hp compressor. Gross
> overkill dust collector. Portable tools--circular saw, jigsaw,
> Sawzall, belt, pad, and random orbit sanders, 1/2" drill, electric
> impact driver. Assorted chisels, saws, planes, and other hand tools.
> Bench with pattern vise.

Ignoring the question of the viability of the project, since
many others have already expressed opinions on that...

If I were attempting this, I think I would build a horizontal
mortising table to use the 3hp router (probably look for a
design with the router fixed and a sliding table for the
workpiece being mortised)(*).

I'd use a tenoning jig on the table saw (either shop-made or
store bought, depending on how enthusiastic I felt about jig
making).

It seems likely that there'll be a lot of common parts (I'm
guessing all the windows will take the same size mortises and
tenons, etc), so you'll only be doing one setup (which is the
time-consuming part) for each. Then just repeatedly pushing
wood thru the machine. Not as much work as a fancy cabinet
with a hundred different sized parts, really.

John

(* the alternative would be a dedicated mortising machine.
I have one, and use it, but it's a pain because of the poor
fence and holddown. It's OK for a dozen or so mortises at
a time for something like cabinet doors, but for a project
like yours I think you'd need an industrial class machine
like the Powermatic 719. I think a horizontal router table
and accepting the round-end mortises would be simpler and
cheaper in this case.)

Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 10:56:42 AM9/12/16
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Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

Larry Blanchard

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Sep 12, 2016, 1:28:40 PM9/12/16
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:00:49 -0500, Leon wrote:

>> If your house is paid for or nearly so, why don't your get a home loan
>> for the windows and go fishing, camping, sailing, or what ever your
>> hobby is.
>
> It is wise to stay out of debt once you get out.
>
>
>
>
>> I would assume that to cut, mill, and glue together nearly a month of 8
>> hours days to make them. Plus some time to install them. You are not
>> only making a huge investment in materials but also a large investment
>> of your time.

And that's the catch. I just finished 15 maple bookcases. One or two is
a hobby. Fifteen is just plain work! But they do look nice :-).


--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

John McCoy

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Sep 12, 2016, 4:21:03 PM9/12/16
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:KKWdnc0ouIG_X0vKnZ2dnUU7-
bOd...@giganews.com:

> Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)

Somewhat. I'm not a big fan of loose tenons (which is
basically what the Domino is). So, if I were doing it,
I would not go that way. Your mileage may vary :-)

John

John McCoy

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Sep 12, 2016, 4:22:16 PM9/12/16
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:wN6dnaXQ7dKPKEvK...@giganews.com:


> It is wise to stay out of debt once you get out.

Would that I could convince my girlfriend of that :-(

John

Ed Pawlowski

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Sep 12, 2016, 5:14:03 PM9/12/16
to
On 9/12/2016 12:05 PM, Neon Leon wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:56:33 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>
>> Are you familiar with the Festool Domino? ;~)
>
> yea festool ;~) yea festool ;~)
>
> i am leon and i own a shitload of really expensive festools and you dont ;~)

Ca-ching!!! Another 5 cent commission.

Unknown

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Sep 12, 2016, 5:20:05 PM9/12/16
to
Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote in
news:_sCdnSaLhqEOh0rK...@giganews.com:
Finally, a proper step 2 to the Meme!
1. Earn $.05 commission.
2. Put your $.02 in.
3. Profit!

Puckdropper

Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 5:48:58 PM9/12/16
to
Since I have probably cut in excess of 20,000 mortises in the past 8
years with my Domino and maybe before that less than 100 with my
mortiser between 1998 and 2008 I am a very big fan of the floating
tennon. No failures yet and an "Enormous" time saver.

I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
loose tenons.

Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 5:50:14 PM9/12/16
to
On 9/12/2016 4:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
;~)

dpb

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Sep 12, 2016, 6:24:51 PM9/12/16
to
On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

> Since I have probably cut in excess of 20,000 mortises in the past 8
> years with my Domino and maybe before that less than 100 with my
> mortiser between 1998 and 2008 I am a very big fan of the floating
> tenon. No failures yet and an "Enormous" time saver.

Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?

> I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
> loose tenons.

I don't know that it'd make much difference but the biggest difference I
see in the windows is simply the full-length/width for the surface area
as opposed to the limited (relative) size of the loose tenon.

If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.

Then again, as we've often noted here, I'm an old traditional kinda'
guy, too...I just like the cope fit.

-MIKE-

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Sep 12, 2016, 7:19:15 PM9/12/16
to
On 9/12/16 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
> I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
> loose tenons.

Um, because they're loose. Duh.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

J. Clarke

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Sep 12, 2016, 8:45:34 PM9/12/16
to
In article <nr6aki$dd6$1...@dont-email.me>, no...@non.net says...
That is an outstanding refernce. Thank you for the suggestion. For
anyone else looking for it I'm not going to slashdot the link I found by
posting it here, but the exact title is "Getting the Most Out Of Your
Shaper" by Sam Brown, which was in publication from some time in the
1930s on into the 80s. Amazon has numerous copies in various editions
and conditions ranging from 99 cents up to two thousand bucks!?!?!. I
have seen some with publication number 4535 and others with number
4575--I have no idea what the difference is.

J. Clarke

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Sep 12, 2016, 9:13:55 PM9/12/16
to
In article <XnsA68167483F5...@213.239.209.88>,
igo...@ix.netcom.com says...
I hadn't really thought about a floor-standing mortiser--I generally
think of those as "too expensive" but the Powermatic is midway between
the two Dominos and would fit right in with doing the coped tenons that
dpb suggested (which was the direction I was leaning anyway).

Thank you.

John McCoy

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Sep 12, 2016, 10:34:57 PM9/12/16
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
K3N...@giganews.com:

> I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
> loose tenons.

Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
tenon.

Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
the time, something else you wouldn't do.

J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
do in the classical way.

John

Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 11:12:41 PM9/12/16
to
On 9/12/2016 5:24 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> Since I have probably cut in excess of 20,000 mortises in the past 8
>> years with my Domino and maybe before that less than 100 with my
>> mortiser between 1998 and 2008 I am a very big fan of the floating
>> tenon. No failures yet and an "Enormous" time saver.
>
> Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?

Yes. But most interior. There are specific Dominos tenons made for out
door applications.



>
>> I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
>> loose tenons.
>
> I don't know that it'd make much difference but the biggest difference I
> see in the windows is simply the full-length/width for the surface area
> as opposed to the limited (relative) size of the loose tenon.

The large Domino will handle up to 3" deep on both sides IIRC. Tenon 6"
long. But I may have missed something in the OP post. I understood
that he would possibly reuse old wood and repair joints. The larger
Domino would work for that.




>
> If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
> time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
> by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
> operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.

Certainly if building new! Again I thought he might be repairing and
using the old wood.



Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 11:13:26 PM9/12/16
to
On 9/12/2016 6:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/12/16 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>> I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
>> loose tenons.
>
> Um, because they're loose. Duh.
>
>


Um not when you glue them in. They are only loose until the glue dries.

Leon

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Sep 12, 2016, 11:14:01 PM9/12/16
to
An absolute valid reason. ;~)

-MIKE-

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Sep 13, 2016, 12:10:14 AM9/13/16
to
HA! Gotcha!!
I was makin a funny. :-p

Leon

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Sep 13, 2016, 8:52:47 AM9/13/16
to
On 9/12/2016 11:10 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/12/16 10:13 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 9/12/2016 6:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 9/12/16 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
>>>> loose tenons.
>>>
>>> Um, because they're loose. Duh.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Um not when you glue them in. They are only loose until the glue dries.
>
> HA! Gotcha!!
> I was makin a funny. :-p
>
>


;~)

dpb

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Sep 13, 2016, 9:28:53 AM9/13/16
to
On 09/12/2016 10:12 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/12/2016 5:24 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>> ...
>>
...

>> Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?
>
> Yes. But most interior. There are specific Dominos tenons made for out
> door applications.

I'd wondered about that...they should stay dry-enough in the application
but the more extreme temp/humididee swings made me ask...what's the
difference in the splines/tenons, you know?

Many old windows weren't actually glued; they simply used a headless
nail as a "peg" in the joints. With the advent of modern glues, I
believe commercial windows now are universally glued; probably with
urea-formaldehyde or the like I'd presume...

...

> The large Domino will handle up to 3" deep on both sides IIRC. Tenon 6"
> long. But I may have missed something in the OP post. I understood that
> he would possibly reuse old wood and repair joints. The larger Domino
> would work for that.
...

I wasn't aware there was anything that large available...then again,
there's never been a dealer where I've been located; I've never actually
seen one of them live...

>> If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
>> time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
>> by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
>> operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.
>
> Certainly if building new! Again I thought he might be repairing and
> using the old wood.

Seemed to me he had discounted the idea as too many too far gone...otoh,
I'd be likely to be dissassembling and making pieces to fit; probably at
higher level of effort and time than building new simply to salvage as
much of the original as could...just on the principle of the thing. :)

Leon

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Sep 13, 2016, 10:07:01 AM9/13/16
to
On 9/13/2016 8:28 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 09/12/2016 10:12 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 9/12/2016 5:24 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 09/12/2016 4:48 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
> ...
>
>>> Have you used any for exterior application, Leon?
>>
>> Yes. But most interior. There are specific Dominos tenons made for out
>> door applications.
>
> I'd wondered about that...they should stay dry-enough in the application
> but the more extreme temp/humididee swings made me ask...what's the
> difference in the splines/tenons, you know?

Sipo Mahogany tenons

http://festoolusa.com/power-tool-accessories/joiners/tenons/sipo-domino-tenons-10mm-x-24-mm-x-50mm-pack-of-85-494873



>
> Many old windows weren't actually glued; they simply used a headless
> nail as a "peg" in the joints. With the advent of modern glues, I
> believe commercial windows now are universally glued; probably with
> urea-formaldehyde or the like I'd presume...

I would be clueless on both counts. ;~)


>
> ...
>
>> The large Domino will handle up to 3" deep on both sides IIRC. Tenon 6"
>> long. But I may have missed something in the OP post. I understood that
>> he would possibly reuse old wood and repair joints. The larger Domino
>> would work for that.
> ...
>
> I wasn't aware there was anything that large available...then again,
> there's never been a dealer where I've been located; I've never actually
> seen one of them live...

Sorry, actually, 19/32" to 2-3/4" (15-70 mm, 5 mm increments) but you
can buy tenons in lengths of up to 750mm long, Cut to desired length.



>
>>> If they're cut as I suggested, I can't think there'd be any
>>> time-savings, either; one gets multiple joints in one pass on the ends
>>> by coping whereas each has to have both ends done as individual
>>> operation otherwise; four operations per joint, total.
>>
>> Certainly if building new! Again I thought he might be repairing and
>> using the old wood.
>
> Seemed to me he had discounted the idea as too many too far gone...otoh,
> I'd be likely to be dissassembling and making pieces to fit; probably at
> higher level of effort and time than building new simply to salvage as
> much of the original as could...just on the principle of the thing. :)
>

Sure, at a certain point repairing can be more trouble than simply
building new.

notbob

unread,
Sep 13, 2016, 12:23:38 PM9/13/16
to
On 2016-09-11, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net> wrote:
>
> That means that I can put 5K into tooling and still be
> ahead and with IMO better quality and far far greater satisfaction.
>
> I see the options as:
> Big Domino
> Little Domino
> Leigh FMT Pro
> Leigh FMT Super
> Horizontal Router Table (MLCS or similar)
> Horizontal Boring Machine (Grizzly G0540 or similar)
> Shop made mortising and tenoning jigs specific to the required
> cuts
> Something else I haven't thought of
>
> Or possibly more than one of the above.

This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
why it is not listed. Or......?

nb

dadiOH

unread,
Sep 13, 2016, 12:54:49 PM9/13/16
to

"notbob" <not...@nothome.com> wrote in message
news:e3qng6...@mid.individual.net...

> This thread has been a real education, for me. I barely knew what a
> mortise/tenon joint was, let alone a loose tenon. So, my question is
> about the Rockler Beadlock system. Is this not a good system? Is that
> why it is not listed. Or......?

I've never used it but suspect it is fine. Just a LOT of holes to drill and
non-standard tenons.


Leon

unread,
Sep 13, 2016, 2:45:33 PM9/13/16
to
The biggest problem with exact fit is no wiggle room. With a Domino you
can allow for a touch of wiggle room, much like a biscuit joiner.
With dowels and beadlock your holes must be placed perfectly.

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 13, 2016, 8:11:39 PM9/13/16
to
In article <nr8uue$8vm$1...@dont-email.me>, no...@non.net says...
It's not just that. If make new for one then it will unless I'm very
careful in my selection of wood have a different interior appearance
from the others, and I'm not all that enamored of the appearance as they
are (note by the way that I'm not wedded to cypress--choice of wood is
still somewhat up in the air and will depend on whether I've got surplus
to spend). Also they are all single glazed and while I could get
individual double-glazed units that would fit where each existing pane
came out, they would be too thin to be really effective and there would
be an awful lot of them--better IMO to make new sash intended to fit
double-glazing and to use false muntins instead of tiny panes.

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 13, 2016, 8:14:40 PM9/13/16
to
In article <nr9b0i$kr1$1...@dont-email.me>, xi...@verizon.net says...
And making it work well with coping I suspect would be a pain.

bnw...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 10:08:56 AM9/14/16
to
just received this link today...any interest/comments?:
https://www.leighjigs.com/fmt_videos.php

krw

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 3:10:32 PM9/14/16
to
Pretty expensive! I thought about buying one but you're with
spitting range of the Domino, with the FMT.

Leon

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 3:18:18 PM9/14/16
to
My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.

notbob

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 4:22:36 PM9/14/16
to
On 2016-09-14, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:

>> Pretty expensive!

Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
Festool is equally guilty.

>> I thought about buying one but you're with spitting range of the
>> Domino, with the FMT.

> My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.

I can see the size advantage to the Festool, but isn't the Domino
strictly for slip/floating tenons?

nb

Leon

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 5:03:57 PM9/14/16
to
Yes

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 7:29:21 PM9/14/16
to
In article <8233bffb-e137-41c8...@googlegroups.com>,
bnw...@gmail.com says...
The Leighs are on my list of options to consider--pricing for the
aluminum one is in the same ballpark as the Dominos or a good hollow-
chisel mortiser, the steel one is about half as much. I can't find much
on using one for making sash though.

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 7:43:41 PM9/14/16
to
In article <e3tps9...@mid.individual.net>, not...@nothome.com
says...
>
> On 2016-09-14, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
> > On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:
>
> >> Pretty expensive!
>
> Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
> Festool is equally guilty.

Are you talking about the Leigh FMT? If so where is the plastic? The
Pro is machined frome extruded aluminum, the Super is stamped steel.

> >> I thought about buying one but you're with spitting range of the
> >> Domino, with the FMT.
>
> > My thoughts and not restricted to size like with the FMT.
>
> I can see the size advantage to the Festool, but isn't the Domino
> strictly for slip/floating tenons?

While that's how it's normally used, there's no reason I can think of
why it can't be used to make mortises that accept tenons cut by other
means. The only difficulty I can see is alignment and the rounded ends,
but those issues apply to any router-cut mortise that doesn't have a
matching tenoner (one of the attractions of the Leigh is that cuts
matching mortises and tenons).

notbob

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 8:26:57 PM9/14/16
to
On 2016-09-14, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
>> Festool is equally guilty.

> Are you talking about the Leigh FMT? If so where is the plastic?

I could be wrong. All those black adjustment knobs/levers and
tenon guides are either plastic or metal with a black finish. The
"guides" definitely look like plastic, to me. Am I wrong?

nb





J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 14, 2016, 9:10:53 PM9/14/16
to
In article <e3u86e...@mid.individual.net>, not...@nothome.com
says...
I see what you're talking about now. Some of the black pieces on the
Pro seem to be anodized aluminum. I'm not sure what the guides are made
out of but they look pretty robust.

Leon

unread,
Sep 15, 2016, 9:45:54 AM9/15/16
to
On 9/14/2016 6:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <e3tps9...@mid.individual.net>, not...@nothome.com
> says...
>>
>> On 2016-09-14, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/14/2016 2:09 PM, krw wrote:
>>
>>>> Pretty expensive!
>>
>> Specially considering how much of the tool's contruction is plastic.
>> Festool is equally guilty.
>
> Are you talking about the Leigh FMT? If so where is the plastic? The
> Pro is machined frome extruded aluminum, the Super is stamped steel.

IIRC clamps, and bushings are plastic. Although I hardly see the
disadvantage to using plastic. I have not had a tool failure due to
plastic.

notbob

unread,
Sep 15, 2016, 12:41:52 PM9/15/16
to
On 2016-09-15, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> IIRC clamps, and bushings are plastic. Although I hardly see the
> disadvantage to using plastic. I have not had a tool failure due to
> plastic.

Are you serious about the "plastic bushings"?

If so, thank you! I will NEVER buy anything with a bushings made of
plastic. ;)

nb

Leon

unread,
Sep 15, 2016, 1:55:35 PM9/15/16
to
On 9/15/2016 11:41 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-09-15, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> IIRC clamps, and bushings are plastic. Although I hardly see the
>> disadvantage to using plastic. I have not had a tool failure due to
>> plastic.
>
> Are you serious about the "plastic bushings"?

Absolutely

Take a look here at the add on accessory kit for the FMT.

https://www.leighjigs.com/sfmt_accessories.php

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 15, 2016, 7:46:15 PM9/15/16
to
In article <e401aa...@mid.individual.net>, not...@nothome.com
says...
Note that the only thing those bushings do is control the movement of a
pin.

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 15, 2016, 8:24:05 PM9/15/16
to
In article <Sa2dnQylEpVu80rK...@giganews.com>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
windows should be a breeze for it.

Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.

krw

unread,
Sep 15, 2016, 10:27:21 PM9/15/16
to
For that job, the little one doesn't have any advantages but that's
why they have both models. The big one doesn't do Dominoes smaller
than 10mm, IIRC. That's kinda big for most woodworking.

Leon

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 9:28:11 AM9/16/16
to
On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <Sa2dnQylEpVu80rK...@giganews.com>, lcb11211
> @swbelldotnet says...
>>
>> On 9/12/2016 9:34 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:w6udnbxP_IVev0rKnZ2dnUU7-
>>> K3N...@giganews.com:
>>>
>>>> I would be interested in hearing what you objection would be to using
>>>> loose tenons.
>>>
>>> Just don't like them. I like the classical mortise and
>>> tenon.
>>>
>>> Of course, I'm not a production shop cutting thousands of
>>> mortises a year, so I can afford to be old school. I cut
>>> my tenons by hand with a Lie-Neilsen tenon saw most of
>>> the time, something else you wouldn't do.
>>>
>>> J. Clarke's 400-odd mortise and tenons, spread over 3 or 4
>>> years as he appears to envision, seems to me practical to
>>> do in the classical way.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>>
>> An absolute valid reason. ;~)
>
> Well, I looked at the Dominos today. The little one is right out--I
> don't see where it offers any advantages over the XL and there wouldn't
> be enough mortise depth past the cope to provide much benefit. The XL
> can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
> windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Actually many custom builders are using the larger Domino for large
wooden doors.

Click on the video

http://festoolusa.com/power-tools/joiners/professional/



>
> Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut any
> deeper than the longest router bit I can get.
>
> OK, I think that's going to be the deciding factor--the Domino and the
> Leigh would be working at the limit of what they can do, the Powermatic
> will be right in the middle of its capability range on doors--the
> windows should be a breeze for it.
>
> Unless there's a compelling argument otherwise that I've missed.
>


Good observations but mortisers are S L O W compared to a Domino.

FWIW and having used both a Domino is as fast to use per joint as a
biscuit cutter.
A mortiser is maybe twice as fast as doing by hand by an experienced
wood worker.

A mortiser does half of the joint, you still have to cut tenons and
every fit is probably going to have to be tweaked. The Domino does both
sides of the joint perfectly almost instantly.

I bought my Domino with the expectation to use it like my biscuit
joiner. The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
ever did with the biscuit cutter.



Leon

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 9:33:54 AM9/16/16
to
On 9/16/2016 8:27 AM, Leon wrote:
The tool is so versatile that I have used it 10 more than I
> ever did with the biscuit cutter.
>
>
>
That should read, 10 "times" more than the biscuit cutter.

Swingman

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 11:43:40 AM9/16/16
to
On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

> Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut
> any deeper than the longest router bit I can get.

Consider using end mills for cutting mortises with a router. I don't use
anything else on my Multi-Router.

> The XL
> can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
> windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.

Since most large door frame stiles are rarely over 6" in width, I doubt
that will ever be a practical limitation, as the traditional rules for
tenon length is five times its thickness, or 1/3rd the width of the stile.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Ed Pawlowski

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 1:40:51 PM9/16/16
to
This could be a better post. You should have mentioned it is a Festool
Domino assuring the commission payment and the mere mention would bring
joy to Neon Whatshisname.

Leon

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 2:15:44 PM9/16/16
to
Sorry, LOL

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 5:06:04 PM9/16/16
to
In article <9slmtbdoih6c9ke5i...@4ax.com>, k...@nowhere.com
says...
There's an adapter to use the cutters from the 500 in the 700.

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 5:20:15 PM9/16/16
to
In article <F9KdnWAmLc65jkHK...@giganews.com>,
k...@nospam.com says...
>
> On 9/15/2016 7:23 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > Come to think the Leigh will have a similar limitation--it can't cut
> > any deeper than the longest router bit I can get.
>
> Consider using end mills for cutting mortises with a router. I don't use
> anything else on my Multi-Router.
>
> > The XL
> > can go 2.75 inches deep which is a big improvement. Be dandy for
> > windows but a little short for full sized frame-and-panel doors.
>
> Since most large door frame stiles are rarely over 6" in width, I doubt
> that will ever be a practical limitation, as the traditional rules for
> tenon length is five times its thickness, or 1/3rd the width of the stile.

It's a third of the thickness, 2/3 of the _width_ for a door. So a six
inch stile needs a 4 inch tenon. Still, did some measuring and the
widest is only 4 inches so the Domino's back in the running.

Any thoughts on using it with a coped joint?

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 5:21:06 PM9/16/16
to
In article <aZmdnRDY4e35bkbK...@giganews.com>, lcb11211
I looked at the video. Not the style of door or window I have in mind.
Any links on using the Domino with a coped joint?

Swingman

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 7:34:18 PM9/16/16
to
On 9/16/2016 4:20 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

> It's a third of the thickness, 2/3 of the _width_ for a door. So a six
> inch stile needs a 4 inch tenon.

Not necessarily ... and why gawd invented various types of M&T joinery. ;)

Shorter, double, or twin, tenons at the joint (dead simple to do with a
tool like the XL Domino), and depending upon the thickness (with regard
to the amount of stock removal necessary that could weaken a critical
point) will often afford a stronger joint than a single 4" tenon.

I've built a number of large doors and don't consider the max tenon
length for the XL Domino to be practically limiting for most residential
door applications ... unless of course you're building a castle, or
doing timber framing. ;)

Leon

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 7:38:15 PM9/16/16
to
Not that I recall, but I do lap joints and reinforce with the domino.
So mortising a surface with intricate edges is no issue.

As long as you have a solid surface to register against, you can add a
mortise to a coped edge/joint.

Take a look here this is a reinforced lap joint.


The mortises were cut after cutting the 1/4" thick tongue which will
engage the mating rabbet.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051082274/in/dateposted-public/

How it fits with the domino tenon in the thicker 2/3" of the joint.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051131673/in/dateposted-public/

Freshly cut mortises. The Domino motiser's face registers against the
tongue and I simply adjust the depth of plunge and extra 12mm to span
the 1/2" gap.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051049986/in/dateposted-public/

The fact that there is not a total solid surface should not matter. All
you need is a face on the work for the fence to rest on and an edge for
the face of the mortiser to register against.


The rails with mortises,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051045046/in/dateposted-public/

And the mating stiles with the mortises.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051074714/in/dateposted-public/

These joints are very strong when reinforced with a Domino and I
reinforce all of these joints with the Domino.

If I added a decorative edge and or use my rail and stile bits the
Domino could reinforce those joints too.






Leon

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 7:55:51 PM9/16/16
to
And actually the larger domino will "normally" accept down to a 8mm bit.
Keep in mind also that the Domino only comes with one sized cutter
unless you buy the assortment of Dominos also.

You will need/want to attach a vac to the Domino to keep the holes
cleaned out. With that combination virtually no saw dust or shavings
escape. It is a very clean operation.


And just a few other things to consider. There is no risk with buying a
Domino mortiser. You can use it for 30 days and if it will not do what
you want it to do you can return it, no problem.

I predominately use 5mm domino tenons, I am on my 3rd box of 1,800 and I
went through the initial 600 that came with the assortment also. So
that is about 4800 Dominos in the 5mm size and 9600 mortises.
That is a load of mortises. I am still using the original 5mm cutter
bit and have never had it resharpened. Considering a regular chisel
and bit mortiser, how often do you think you will have to resharpen the
chisel?


I am not trying to sell you or steer you in any direction so much as
giving you views of my experience. I have not turned my Delta mortiser
on in over 8 years since getting the Domino.

Leon

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 8:04:15 PM9/16/16
to
One thing that I have not mentioned. While the Domino mortisers have an
indexing system to register the location from the end of a board, I do
not trust it.
Every joint that I use the Domino on I use an exact fit mortise on one
mating piece and an elongated mortice on the other mating piece, you
simply adjust a dial to do this. This gives you wiggle room of about
1/8" left and right, probably a bit more with larger bits. This also
lets you make marks on mating pieces for placement like you would with a
biscuit joiner. I typically cut the exact fit mortise on the end of a
board, the rail and the elongated mortise on the edge of a board, the stile.






krw

unread,
Sep 16, 2016, 11:31:33 PM9/16/16
to
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 19:03:58 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
This is why I'm a little confused over the objection to the mortise
length of the Domino. They don't have to be through.

>
>
>
>
>

Leon

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 12:22:58 AM9/17/16
to
I think Swingman has mentioned a time or two getting the bigger Domino.
I think for a furniture and cabinet builder that the 500 is perfect.
While the big one would be nice to have, I seriously doubt that a
furniture/cabinet maker would ever need more than the 500.
The Domino makes quality builds a dream come true with its accuracy and
lightning speed compared to conventional machinery like a mortiser.
I am convened that a woodworker that is serious about building quality
furniture that the Domino is an answer to many how do I do it questions.

In Clark's case he has a particular need and the 700 could possibly be
"the answer" if "he" can make it work. IMHO if he could make it work
the 700 would be used much more in future projects than a mortiser.









krw

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 10:41:03 AM9/17/16
to
On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 23:22:41 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
That was exactly my point. Unless you're a door-maker or
butcher-block maker (are there any of those?) I don't see the need for
the 700. Maybe if you want to build a house without nails... ;-)
The 500 is probably the slickest tool around, though.

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 7:31:05 PM9/17/16
to
In article <19lqtbh7ovfluj6hj...@4ax.com>, k...@nowhere.com
says...
Near as I can tell, there is one thing that the 500 will do that the 700
will not--the 500 has an extra width setting (its settings are an exact
fit, 6mm wider, and 10mm wider, the XL only does the exact and 6, not
the 10). I thought this would matter but there aren't wider tenons to
take advantage of it near as I can tell and cutting wider seems pretty
easy anyway. That makes the 700 a very easy decision and at this point
I'm leaning in that direction. In fact I'm leaning pretty hard in that
direction. I'd be making storm windows with it right now if I hadn't
found out when I got to Woodcraft that I had FORGOTTEN MY DARNED
WALLET!!! Turns out that that Festool even has instructions in the user
manual for using it with coped sash.

krw

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 8:06:58 PM9/17/16
to
On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 19:30:53 -0400, "J. Clarke"
The idea isn't wider tenons, rather slop in placing the mortise.

>That makes the 700 a very easy decision and at this point
>I'm leaning in that direction. In fact I'm leaning pretty hard in that
>direction. I'd be making storm windows with it right now if I hadn't
>found out when I got to Woodcraft that I had FORGOTTEN MY DARNED
>WALLET!!!

BTDT. I was on a business trip to Columbus last week and forgot the
"Woodcraft cash" at home.

>Turns out that that Festool even has instructions in the user
>manual for using it with coped sash.

Cool. Sounds like you're all set. Remember, it only hurts once.

Leon

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 8:12:29 PM9/17/16
to
The wider cut than exact fit is NOT for wider tenons, it is to allow
wiggle room and in so much that I never use the widest setting, the
"just" wider than exact fit works well.
I'm not sure if you saw my comment about using exact fit on one side of
the joint and the wider cut for the opposite side but that certainly
makes life easier. I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by
using the wider mortise cut for all of your joint unions.





That makes the 700 a very easy decision and at this point
> I'm leaning in that direction. In fact I'm leaning pretty hard in that
> direction. I'd be making storm windows with it right now if I hadn't
> found out when I got to Woodcraft that I had FORGOTTEN MY DARNED
> WALLET!!!



Turns out that that Festool even has instructions in the user
> manual for using it with coped sash.

Bonus!

>

Leon

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 8:28:28 PM9/17/16
to
And one last thing, when at all possible, which is most of the time, do
not use the bottom of the Domino as the reference to a work surface, use
the fence on the material. If you use the bottom and the material is
warped/bowed or has any debris under it, it will not set flat on the
work surface and your mortises will be cut too low.

This goes for biscuit cutters too.

Swingman

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 9:31:30 PM9/17/16
to
On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:

> I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
> mortise cut for all of your joint unions.

Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
tenons myself, begs a question:

If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

krw

unread,
Sep 17, 2016, 10:23:35 PM9/17/16
to
On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 20:31:10 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
>> mortise cut for all of your joint unions.
>
>Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
>tenons myself, begs a question:
>
>If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
>the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

Wouldn't it be easier and stronger to just use multiple tenons?

J. Clarke

unread,
Sep 18, 2016, 6:37:18 AM9/18/16
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In article <lu6dnU_1IeP2c0DK...@giganews.com>,
k...@nospam.com says...
>
> On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> > I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
> > mortise cut for all of your joint unions.
>
> Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
> tenons myself, begs a question:
>
> If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
> the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?

The internet abounds with method of making your own dominos. Google
"DIY domino tenons".

If you're picky about fit and doing it in volume the roundover on the
edges can be an issue--in principle it's easy with a router and a
roundover bit, in practice try to find a 7mm radius roundover bit in the
US.

This table was posted on the Festool forum by Gregg Mann:
<http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/are-there-specific-router-
bits-recommended-for-making-my-own-dominoes/>

5mm-use 3/32 rad. (If you can find them in each case)
6mm 1/8
8mm 5/32
10mm 3/16
12mm 1/4

Others just chamfer the ends, use a block plane, sand them, or even use
them square.

I susspect that somebody would do well producing a purpose made set of
bits to cut dominos.





J. Clarke

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Sep 18, 2016, 6:39:37 AM9/18/16
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In article <2iurtbh958hg8tr58...@4ax.com>, k...@nowhere.com
says...
Depends on the geometry of the particular piece I suspect.

Leon

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Sep 18, 2016, 9:38:13 AM9/18/16
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Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 9/17/2016 7:12 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I doubt you will ever see any loss of strength by using the wider
>> mortise cut for all of your joint unions.
>
> Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
> tenons myself, begs a question:
>
> If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
> the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?
>

No, I have cut wider slots but not for wider tenons. I cut wider slots for
screws to slide in.

Leon

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Sep 18, 2016, 9:57:44 AM9/18/16
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I considered making my own 8 years ago when, like you, I was doing tons or
research. But after considering how many domino tenons I was using I
decided that they were not cost prohibitive. My time is more valuable than
the cost of the tenons. While the larger tenons are more expensive you
will likely, in the long run, use more of the less expensive tenons. Now
I realize that you mat not use any 5mm tenons but those are on par with
large biscuits when bought in case quantities. Plus all Domino tenons have
small impressions on both sides to retain glue while you tap them in.

It is relatively easy to make a tenons but not so much, precisely sized. A
little to thin and alignment problems on mating pieces show up. The
question to ask is, do you want to spend time building or maker tenons?

I wonder how long and at what cost 6,000 5mm tenons and materials and
router bits would cost me? Buying pre made has cost me between $225-$250
over 8 years.

Swingman

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Sep 18, 2016, 1:33:05 PM9/18/16
to
On 9/18/2016 5:37 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <lu6dnU_1IeP2c0DK...@giganews.com>,
> k...@nospam.com says...

>> Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
>> tenons myself, begs a question:
>>
>> If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
>> the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?
>
> The internet abounds with method of making your own dominos. Google
> "DIY domino tenons".

The question was NOT about making tenons. But whether a wider mortise
can be cut with the Domino by making multiple, _or overlapping_ , cuts
(one and a half or two passes), with its usual ease and precision??

On 9/18/2016 8:57 AM, Leon wrote:
> It is relatively easy to make a tenons but not so much, precisely
> sized. A
> little to thin and alignment problems on mating pieces show up.

Buying them is indeed more convenient, but I seriously question whether
it is less expensive, or more precise. ;)

IME, cutting precise fitting floating tenons is no more difficult than
cutting precisely dimensioned, in width and thickness, project stock.

For the projects I do, like the chair reproductions, custom sized
joinery has the same obvious benefits of any custom made endeavor over
built in.

I personally like the fact that I can size the joinery as precisely for
the project dimensions as I can, as if I were cutting the mortise and
tenon joinery by hand.

With the added plus that the tenons will be of the same species, and
with matching grain characteristics, which arguably benefits the
strongest possible glue joint.

I'm aware that is putting a fine point on it, but, after all, putting a
fine point on things is how we both have been able to make a living
doing what we do. LOL

>> If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise
>> with
>> the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own
>> tenons?

> No, I have cut wider slots but not for wider tenons. I cut wider
> slots for screws to slide in.

Your "No" Sounds more like a "Yes" to my question?

Let me rephrase:

Can the Domino easily be used to facilitate, at least in in part, the
custom aspect remarked upon above by using it to cut wider, _custom_
width mortises?

IOW, wider than its built-in width capacity; and, equally importantly,
with its customary ease and accuracy?

Not arguing ... mine is a valid question, as I'm once again considering
trading in my Multi-Router for a Domino to free up some shop space ...
I'm tripping over every damned thing in the shop these days.

Leon

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Sep 18, 2016, 5:10:22 PM9/18/16
to
On 9/18/2016 12:32 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 9/18/2016 5:37 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <lu6dnU_1IeP2c0DK...@giganews.com>,
>> k...@nospam.com says...
>
>>> Since I use a Multi-Router for floating tenon joiner and I make all my
>>> tenons myself, begs a question:
>>>
>>> If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with
>>> the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own tenons?
>>
>> The internet abounds with method of making your own dominos. Google
>> "DIY domino tenons".
>
> The question was NOT about making tenons. But whether a wider mortise
> can be cut with the Domino by making multiple, _or overlapping_ , cuts
> (one and a half or two passes), with its usual ease and precision??
>
> On 9/18/2016 8:57 AM, Leon wrote:
>> It is relatively easy to make a tenons but not so much, precisely
>> sized. A
>> little to thin and alignment problems on mating pieces show up.
>
> Buying them is indeed more convenient, but I seriously question whether
> it is less expensive, or more precise. ;)

How much is your time worth? ;~) How much would you charge me to make
6,000 5mm x 30mm tennons with impressions on both sides?




>
> IME, cutting precise fitting floating tenons is no more difficult than
> cutting precisely dimensioned, in width and thickness, project stock.

True but there will be trials to get the "just right fit" each time you
decide to make more tenons.


>
> For the projects I do, like the chair reproductions, custom sized
> joinery has the same obvious benefits of any custom made endeavor over
> built in.

And for specific cases, making custom sized tenons is a worthwhile
process. But for routine mortises the standard sized Domino tenons will
suffice a majority of the time. I was not meaning to say that making
"custom sized" tenons is not worthwhile so much as making the exact same
sized as what you can easily buy is not so much of a time or money saver.


>
> I personally like the fact that I can size the joinery as precisely for
> the project dimensions as I can, as if I were cutting the mortise and
> tenon joinery by hand.
>
> With the added plus that the tenons will be of the same species, and
> with matching grain characteristics, which arguably benefits the
> strongest possible glue joint.
>
> I'm aware that is putting a fine point on it, but, after all, putting a
> fine point on things is how we both have been able to make a living
> doing what we do. LOL

;~)



>
>>> If the need arose is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise
>>> with
>>> the domino (say one and a half or two passes) and make your own
>>> tenons?
>
>> No, I have cut wider slots but not for wider tenons. I cut wider
>> slots for screws to slide in.
>
> Your "No" Sounds more like a "Yes" to my question?

I'm breaking down your sentence....

is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with the domiono.....

No, there is no reason you can't cut a wider mortise with the domino. ;~)





>
> Let me rephrase:
>
> Can the Domino easily be used to facilitate, at least in in part, the
> custom aspect remarked upon above by using it to cut wider, _custom_
> width mortises?
>
> IOW, wider than its built-in width capacity; and, equally importantly,
> with its customary ease and accuracy?

Yes, you can cut a complete dado or groove all the way across or down
the edge of a board if you want so making a wider mortise than the
machine is normally set to cut is no issue.

The procedure is simply to move the domino the amount you want and make
an additional plunge. The add on accessory kit which adds indexing
wings on both sides of the Domino will aid in placement.
I would say that cutting a "PRECISE" wider width mortise might be a bit
problematic in some cases. IMHO it would be prudent to count on making
the mortise slightly wider than the actual width of the tenon.
Something I do on every one of my mating joints.




>
> Not arguing ... mine is a valid question, as I'm once again considering
> trading in my Multi-Router for a Domino to free up some shop space ...
> I'm tripping over every damned thing in the shop these days.


Well you are welcome to play with my Domino and get the feel and perhaps
I could better explain how you might go after some of your custom sized
mortises.

When I got my Domino it happened to not be "PERFECTLY" calibrated for
width of the mortise in relation to being centered between the indexing
pins. I talked to Feestool and they agreed to re-calibrate it within
weeks of buying it.

BUT they advised me how I can get around this situation should it become
a problem in the future. This is only an issue if the calibration is
off and you are using exact fit mortises on both pieces of material.
Because your use opposite sided indexing pins for mating pieces of
material any error is doubled. This is much easier illustrated than
explained.

At any rate thousands of mortises later I seldom if ever use the
indexing pins and am totally happy with the results.

Accuracy of the location of the mortise up and down is a non issue as
you reference the same faces of the material to cut the mortise.

I'll bring my Domino over tonight and splain'it.





Swingman

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Sep 18, 2016, 6:31:30 PM9/18/16
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On 9/18/2016 4:10 PM, Leon wrote:

> Yes, you can cut a complete dado or groove all the way across or down
> the edge of a board if you want so making a wider mortise than the
> machine is normally set to cut is no issue.

Jeeeezusss, finally, you icehole ... thanks!! LOL

Swingman

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Sep 18, 2016, 6:47:07 PM9/18/16
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On 9/18/2016 4:10 PM, Leon wrote:
> How much is your time worth? ;~) How much would you charge me to make
> 6,000 5mm x 30mm tennons with impressions on both sides?

I don't do impressions ... unless you count Boudreaux and Thibodeaux
jokes. ;)

> I'm breaking down your sentence....
>
> is there any reason you can't cut a wider mortise with the domiono.....
>
> No, there is no reason you can't cut a wider mortise with the domino. ;~)

Any gotcha's, tearout/splintering that won't be hidden?

krw

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Sep 18, 2016, 8:49:37 PM9/18/16
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Sounds like a huge waste of time. Dominoes aren't expensive.

Swingman

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Sep 19, 2016, 10:10:45 AM9/19/16
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On 9/18/2016 7:48 PM, krw wrote:

> Sounds like a huge waste of time. Dominoes aren't expensive.

Yep, it certainly is, if off-the-shelf dominoes will work on a project,
it makes no sense.

And, the lack of mm sized router bits, to match the radius of the domino
cut mortise's curved edges, as an excuse for not doing so, is a
non-issue when faced with making a handful of custom widths for a project.

Even more so when it has been stated here a number of times that it is
desirable to cut the domino mortise a bit wider than the domino width to
gain some wiggle room... meaning a precise fit in the radiused corners
is not an absolute necessity.

When needing just a few, I routinely put the proper radius, using a
Nicholson 49, on all four edges of loose tenons, usually in well under a
minute each.

I'm a big fan of the Domino machine ... but I'm also constantly running
across projects where the ability to cut non standard sized joinery is
the key to the project's success, particularly those projects that can't
be designed/fabricated around the capabilities of the tool, i.e.,
reproductions ... therefore my interest in this thread.

That said, Leon convinced me last night that doing custom sized, _wider_
mortises is easily doable with the Domino, with little fuss or muss ...
and my experience is that making those custom width tenons should not an
issue for even a novice woodworker.

J. Clarke

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Sep 25, 2016, 4:22:03 PM9/25/16
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In article <1881806531.495898453.348798.lcb11211-
swbel...@news.giganews.com>, lcb1...@swbell.net says...
Well, I was all set to drop the hammer on the XL 700 and Woodcraft
doesn't have any. Always something.

krw

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Sep 25, 2016, 6:20:24 PM9/25/16
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On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 16:21:56 -0400, "J. Clarke"
Free shipping?

J. Clarke

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Sep 25, 2016, 6:23:13 PM9/25/16
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In article <qcjgubdu6vl2ahcqi...@4ax.com>,
k...@somewhere.com says...
True, and no tax. Was hoping to support the brick and mortar store.
I'll call Coastal on Monday and if they don't have it Amazon it is
(Coastal is local to me).

krw

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Sep 25, 2016, 6:36:12 PM9/25/16
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On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 18:23:08 -0400, "J. Clarke"
That's why I usually buy from Highland. It's "local" (but free
shipping for Festool, I think) and they stock everything green (and a
whole lot more)[*]. They make Woodcraft look sick, though I did go to
a really nice Woodcraft in Columbus, OH.

[*] They've had a lot of trouble keeping Lie Nielson in inventory,
though. Been getting sold out within a week after they receive it.

Leon

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Sep 25, 2016, 11:54:51 PM9/25/16
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Bummer! Well while Festool is expensive you can know that you will not
find it less expensive elsewhere. Sooo you normally get to buy it from
whom ever you want, normally.

Fortunately most all sellers of Festool ship for free.
If Woodcraft could get it with in a week or so, would that be too late?
Just in case the Domino did not suite you it would probably be easier on
you to return to the local Woodcraft vs. shipping back some where else.
Just a thought.

J. Clarke

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Sep 26, 2016, 8:49:53 PM9/26/16
to
In article <f2kgub5jjr199f75l...@4ax.com>,
Well, got no more excuses. Dropped the hammer on the XL tonight and the
8-10mm tenon package. Also an impulse buy--confronted with $160 for the
magic vacuum hose that actually fits the thing and connects it to a
regular shop vac, or $495 for a Festool vac, I went for the vac. Yeah,
the green guys saw _me_ coming.

So hope to have the first of the storm windows together this weekend.
Once all the storms are done then I can start on the primary windows.
Looks like I won't need screens for a while.

krw

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Sep 26, 2016, 9:12:46 PM9/26/16
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 20:49:49 -0400, "J. Clarke"
;-)

I don't think you'll be disappointed. I should have bought the vac
with a tool, too, but at least it was on sale.

>So hope to have the first of the storm windows together this weekend.
>Once all the storms are done then I can start on the primary windows.
>Looks like I won't need screens for a while.

Let us know how you progress.

J. Clarke

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Sep 27, 2016, 12:51:04 AM9/27/16
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In article <77SdnX6xhMKeAXXK...@giganews.com>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...
Well, the other Woodcraft had it. Just a point of information but the
first one I went to had just sold their last 700 to some guy who
returned a 500 for credit towards it.


Swingman

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Sep 27, 2016, 8:26:14 AM9/27/16
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On 9/26/2016 7:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

> Well, got no more excuses. Dropped the hammer on the XL tonight and the
> 8-10mm tenon package. Also an impulse buy--confronted with $160 for the
> magic vacuum hose that actually fits the thing and connects it to a
> regular shop vac, or $495 for a Festool vac, I went for the vac. Yeah,
> the green guys saw _me_ coming.

Congratulations!

A Festool dust extractor has made me just as much in cleanup, and thus
saved time, as the tools that will attach to it.

Not unusual, when I leave it on a remodel where the house remains
occupied, for a client to ask if they can use it overnight. It was a
tossup at first, but now glad I bought all its vacuum cleaner type
attachments.

Leon

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Sep 27, 2016, 9:12:52 AM9/27/16
to
On 9/26/2016 7:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
;~) It is a great vac. and "quiet".

The sanders are damn good too and when hooked up to the vac little
escapes. I often do not do any prep, wiping down or blowing, between
sanding and varnishing.

J. Clarke

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Sep 27, 2016, 6:32:08 PM9/27/16
to
In article <Ma-dnZOAVbjD-HfK...@giganews.com>,
k...@nospam.com says...
>
> On 9/26/2016 7:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > Well, got no more excuses. Dropped the hammer on the XL tonight and the
> > 8-10mm tenon package. Also an impulse buy--confronted with $160 for the
> > magic vacuum hose that actually fits the thing and connects it to a
> > regular shop vac, or $495 for a Festool vac, I went for the vac. Yeah,
> > the green guys saw _me_ coming.
>
> Congratulations!
>
> A Festool dust extractor has made me just as much in cleanup, and thus
> saved time, as the tools that will attach to it.
>
> Not unusual, when I leave it on a remodel where the house remains
> occupied, for a client to ask if they can use it overnight. It was a
> tossup at first, but now glad I bought all its vacuum cleaner type
> attachments.

I'm finding already that a man with Festools has many friends <grin>.

J. Clarke

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Sep 27, 2016, 8:59:01 PM9/27/16
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In article <MPG.3254bd729...@news.eternal-september.org>,
j.clark...@gmail.com says...
Well, tried it out. Nothing fancy, just a stop to clamp to the fence on
the radial saw--a piece of stud with another piece of stud stuck on the
end at a 90 degree angle. Could have just made a butt-joint and it
would have been fine, but stuck a couple of dominos in it.

Having done that little bit, I'm sold. If you need mortises within its
capability, this _is_ the way to do it. It's accurate, quick, tidy, and
just no fuss.

Anybody worried about control, don't be. It doesn't fight you at all.
It just sits there spinning away until you push the handle, then when
you push it makes the mortise, and that's all that happens.

One of the pieces was a cut off length of 2x3 stud about 4 inches long.
As an experiement I stuck it on the radial saw table, on edge, and
trapped it between the fence and the Domino. The Domino held it quite
securely and the mortise went in with no fuss at all (that's with the
8mm bit). I never felt the slightest lack of control. With two tenons
dry fitted my little stop was stuck together well enought that I could
have used it even without glue, but I went ahead and glued it and
tomorrow I should be able to use it to cut sash to length.

So, it was a pile of money but I think it was very much worthwhile.

oldfar...@gmail.com

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Sep 27, 2016, 10:45:24 PM9/27/16
to

Feel free to peruse all of the fucks we do not give at your leisure.

Unknown

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Sep 28, 2016, 4:46:26 AM9/28/16
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oldfar...@gmail.com wrote in news:nsfarh$1msp$1...@gioia.aioe.org:

>
> Feel free to peruse all of the fucks we do not give at your leisure.

Jealous much?

Unknown

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Sep 28, 2016, 5:05:01 AM9/28/16
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.3254dfde2...@news.eternal-september.org:

>
> Well, tried it out. Nothing fancy, just a stop to clamp to the fence
> on the radial saw--a piece of stud with another piece of stud stuck on
> the end at a 90 degree angle. Could have just made a butt-joint and
> it would have been fine, but stuck a couple of dominos in it.
>
> Having done that little bit, I'm sold. If you need mortises within
> its capability, this _is_ the way to do it. It's accurate, quick,
> tidy, and just no fuss.
>
> Anybody worried about control, don't be. It doesn't fight you at all.
> It just sits there spinning away until you push the handle, then when
> you push it makes the mortise, and that's all that happens.
>
> One of the pieces was a cut off length of 2x3 stud about 4 inches
> long. As an experiement I stuck it on the radial saw table, on edge,
> and trapped it between the fence and the Domino. The Domino held it
> quite securely and the mortise went in with no fuss at all (that's
> with the 8mm bit). I never felt the slightest lack of control. With
> two tenons dry fitted my little stop was stuck together well enought
> that I could have used it even without glue, but I went ahead and
> glued it and tomorrow I should be able to use it to cut sash to
> length.
>
> So, it was a pile of money but I think it was very much worthwhile.

Thanks for the review. Another half a degree tilt until the Domino falls
and I find a reason to buy one. :-)

Puckdropper

Leon

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Sep 28, 2016, 8:34:20 AM9/28/16
to
Stupid simple huh? LOL

Now think back to the motriser you were considering. :-) If you have ever
used a traditional motriser I'm betting the Domino really looks good now.

Keep us posted on your door and Windows. Pictures would be cool !




>
> Anybody worried about control, don't be. It doesn't fight you at all.
> It just sits there spinning away until you push the handle, then when
> you push it makes the mortise, and that's all that happens.
>
> One of the pieces was a cut off length of 2x3 stud about 4 inches long.
> As an experiement I stuck it on the radial saw table, on edge, and
> trapped it between the fence and the Domino. The Domino held it quite
> securely and the mortise went in with no fuss at all (that's with the
> 8mm bit). I never felt the slightest lack of control. With two tenons
> dry fitted my little stop was stuck together well enought that I could
> have used it even without glue, but I went ahead and glued it and
> tomorrow I should be able to use it to cut sash to length.
>
> So, it was a pile of money but I think it was very much worthwhile.
>
Think of how worthwhile after hundreds or thousands of mortises. :-)


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