Steel Wool vs.Sandpaper

[DerbyDad03]

Let the discussion begin!

First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar.

To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit
sandpaper or something else?

Thanks.

[Mike Marlow]

Ever since 3M pads became commonly available, I have not used steel wool for
any sort of finish work. Gone are the days of fibers hiding in tight
corners, etc. The red (burgandy) 3M pads work well in place of the 0000
steel wool pads, and leave nothing behind except dust.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[John McCoy]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:f5108077-5eaa-46be...@googlegroups.com:

I'll be interested to see what opinions people have to this
question.

I use sandpaper for everything except the last coat.

John

[DerbyDad03]

I've not tried sanding pads. Sponges - yes, pads - no.

Will I be able to get into all the nooks and crannies of this project?

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/Nightstand_zps0qikftgw.jpeg

Each slat has a round over where it attaches to the shelves and about 1" of
space between each slat. I had to use a brush to get "behind" the round
overs because even with using the rag it was tough to get the poly deep into
the gaps.

I also have to sand each 3/4" slat and between each slat. Are the pads
flexible enough for all of these small places? Steel wool sure is, sandpaper
not as much.

[Greg Guarino]

Let me be the first to give you some belated and unhelpful advice: you
probably should have prefinished the parts before assembly. My
experience is limited, but I find it to be a great deal easier, and you
don't get build-up in the corners. I don't need to worry as much about
glue squeeze-out either with prefinished surfaces.

Having said that, I disregarded my own advice a ways back. I simply
couldn't resist putting together the "ladder" sides of two shelf units I
made:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/17331052990/in/album-72157644207411490/lightbox/

My "slats" are further apart than yours, but it was still a pain to get
into all of those recesses. I don't think I'll make that mistake again.
I think I may have used a block of wood with a piece of sandpaper glued
to two sides, like these, but with finer grit:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/19460141948/in/photostream/lightbox/

I did prefinish the rest of the parts, which required some cleverness to
array them all so they could dry without touching anything:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/15801761882/in/album-72157644207411490/lightbox/

And of course, I had to mask the mating areas.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/15786631007/in/album-72157644207411490/

I have used sandpaper, steel wool and even those scotch-brite style pads
between coats of finish. They all seemed to work OK, but finishing is
still a mystery to me, so I'll be interested to see what responses you get.

[Puckdropper at dot]

"Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@windstream.net> wrote in
news:mpd61g$878$1...@dont-email.me:

>
> Ever since 3M pads became commonly available, I have not used steel
> wool for any sort of finish work. Gone are the days of fibers hiding
> in tight corners, etc. The red (burgandy) 3M pads work well in place
> of the 0000 steel wool pads, and leave nothing behind except dust.
>

Are these the ones you're talking about?
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-Brite-Maroon-General-
Purpose/dp/B0002SQYF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438269156&sr=8-1&keywords=
3M+burgandy+pad

No fibers would be nice when I'm working with Shellac.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:50:43 AM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 7/30/2015 8:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > Let the discussion begin!
> >
> > First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar.
> >
> > To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit
> > sandpaper or something else?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> Let me be the first to give you some belated and unhelpful advice: you
> probably should have prefinished the parts before assembly. My
> experience is limited, but I find it to be a great deal easier, and you
> don't get build-up in the corners. I don't need to worry as much about
> glue squeeze-out either with prefinished surfaces.
>
> Having said that, I disregarded my own advice a ways back. I simply
> couldn't resist putting together the "ladder" sides of two shelf units I
> made:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/17331052990/in/album-72157644207411490/lightbox/
>

Note: I can't access your images at this time, but I will look at them later.

Thanks for the suggestion of finishing the parts before assembly. I had
considered that approach and consciously chose not to employ it.

I don't really have enough dedicated space to easily pre-finish 19 slats
and 2 shelves. I thought about different methods of standing them up, lying
them down, hanging them, etc. It would just not be convenient, certainly
more inconvenient than the issues related to finishing this particular
project after assembly.

That said, even if I *had* finished them prior to assembly, I would still have the same question after the first coat:

Steel wool vs. sandpaper

[Mike Marlow]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> I've not tried sanding pads. Sponges - yes, pads - no.
>
> Will I be able to get into all the nooks and crannies of this project?

You should be able to - even easier than steel wool because they have a
certain amount of stiffness to them which allows you to work them into tight
places. Here's a link...

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-19266/3M-Hand-Pads/3M-7447-Hand-Pads?pricode=WY473&gadtype=pla&id=S-19266&gclid=CODVy6TCg8cCFdgXgQodCn8GZA&gclsrc=aw.ds

I don't buy from this site but it was the first site that popped up in a
search for 3m pads

>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/Nightstand_zps0qikftgw.jpeg
>
> Each slat has a round over where it attaches to the shelves and about
> 1" of space between each slat. I had to use a brush to get "behind"
> the round overs because even with using the rag it was tough to get
> the poly deep into the gaps.
>

They should work just fine for that project.

> I also have to sand each 3/4" slat and between each slat. Are the pads
> flexible enough for all of these small places? Steel wool sure is,
> sandpaper not as much.

Flexible enough, plus if you need a bit of strength, they have that over
steel wool so you can work them into areas that you can't do with steel wool

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

Yes. I use those for the most part, and sometimes I use the grey ones -
which are a finer grit, but to be honest, I don't really need to use the
grey grit. These work for just about everything. I will scuff up clear
coat, just to develop a tooth with these, and then shoot clear on. Comes
out perfect. Remember - I'm going for a much more perfect finish than the
typical woodworking application might require, and they work that well for
me. And yes - you will love the no-fiber aspect of using these pads. I'll
never go back to steel wool for anything besides taking light rust off of
metal, again.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[DerbyDad03]

Neither of the Borgs carry that exact pad, but Lowes carries something
close.

I'm trying to get this done by the end of the week so I can move on to other
stuff, so I may just go with a couple of the Lowes pads for now. Worst case
is if I don't like 'em, I've already got the steel wool and sandpaper.

Thanks!

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=335873-98-10144NA-PT&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3561778&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

[dadiOH]

Regardless of what you use, it need not be that fine; nor do you need to
thoroughly sand all the nooks and crannies. All you are doing is scuffing
to help the next coat adhere. And you need not have done that had you
applied all but the last coat at the same time but 2-8 hours apart depending
upon how thick the coats were. And with wipe on, they aren't going to be
very thick.

FWIW, whenever I clear coat I don't sand between coats (unless there is
something horrid like a bristle, gob of sawdust, etc. and those I generally
shave off with a chisel or razor blade). With lacquer/shellac there is no
point in doing so; with poly, no need if you recoat soon enough; maybe with
alkyd, been so long since I used it I don't recall.

Now, for the last coat with whatever I do sand, getting the surface to the
point I want it, and then apply a very thin last coat.

The main reasons I use 0000 steel wool (when I use it)are to kill shine
and/orbecause of irregular surfaces and only on the final coat. Usually
followed by paste wax and buffing.

[tdacon]

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:f5108077-5eaa-46be...@googlegroups.com...

Because most of my work is on boats in salt-water environments I wouldn't go
near a piece of steel wool.

I've been using red 3M abrasive pads between coats of *varnish* for about a
million years, to give the coat some tooth and leave a dull surface so that
I can tell where I'm leaving holidays during recoating, and to knock off
dust flecks and so forth. The exception would be where I had some droops or
significant brush marks in a coat, and I'd go with sandpaper in 220 or so to
knock down the high spots.

If I'm trying to fill the grain, I usually sand between coats so that I can
tell how well I'm getting it filled, using 320 or 220.

Wipe-on poly applies a lot thinner than the varnish that I ordinarily use,
so I'd just use the 3M pads. But over the first coat of wipe-on poly on
poplar? I'd just give it a quick wipe with a 3M pad to knock down the raised
grain and go for it. Maybe after the third coat or so I'd start thinking
about a bit of sandpaper to level it.

Tom

[Mike Marlow]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

> Neither of the Borgs carry that exact pad, but Lowes carries something
> close.
>
> I'm trying to get this done by the end of the week so I can move on
> to other stuff, so I may just go with a couple of the Lowes pads for
> now. Worst case is if I don't like 'em, I've already got the steel
> wool and sandpaper.
>
> Thanks!
>
> http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=335873-98-10144NA-PT&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3561778&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

Should work. I don't know what grit the black stuff is though. The maroon
I use is 3M 07447. You can get it at NAPA, Advance Auto, or just about any
place that sells automotive refinishing supplies. I suspect the black will
work - it's sold as a product to use between finish coats.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Leon]

Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing
that around 1990.

Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get every
speck of it off.

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:14:59 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote:

> Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get every
> speck of it off.

Before plastic scrub pads, bronze wool was the solution to that. It's still
available, as a marine specialty item.

[DerbyDad03]

While they do look black on some monitors, they are actually grey.

I tried them and they made quick work of knocking down the grain, even on the routed edges and end grain. Very little dust.

Second coat of poly is drying, final coat goes on tomorrow night, and then I can move on to the next project:

$10 cross bars for my roof rack instead of $160 OEM. Flatten the ends of EMT conduit so it fits into the track. Use a square nuts in the tracks and Allen head cap screws to keep the bars from moving fore and aft. OK, $15 if I decide to PlastiDip them black.

That's all I need to hold a soft roof top carrier on the rare occasions that I may need to. I may never need to, but I'm preparing for a loop through 3 cities in NYS to move 2 daughters into college apartments. I won't know how much room I'll really need until I'm already on the road, so I'm keeping a 15 Cu Ft soft car top carrier in reserve just in case.

Thanks for the advice on the pads.

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:10:33 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > Let the discussion begin!
> >
> > First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to
> > poplar.
> >
> > To prepare for the next coat, would you use 0000 steel wool, 400 grit
> > sandpaper or something else?
>
> Regardless of what you use, it need not be that fine; nor do you need to
> thoroughly sand all the nooks and crannies. All you are doing is scuffing
> to help the next coat adhere.

...and knocking down the grain raised by the first coat. There definitely was that, especially on the routed edges and end grain of the slats.

> And you need not have done that had you
> applied all but the last coat at the same time but 2-8 hours apart depending
> upon how thick the coats were. And with wipe on, they aren't going to be
> very thick.
>

That's probably true, but my schedule doesn't allow me to put the second coat on 2-8 hours after the first. I get a few hours in the shop in the evening, so it's typically multiples of 24 hours between coats.

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:

>
>
> Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing
> that around 1990.

It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old
practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into
scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid
attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right -
no need to scuff. But...

>
> Steel wool will rust if you use a water based poly and do not get
> every speck of it off.

Steel wool sucks!

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> That's all I need to hold a soft roof top carrier on the rare
> occasions that I may need to. I may never need to, but I'm preparing
> for a loop through 3 cities in NYS to move 2 daughters into college
> apartments. I won't know how much room I'll really need until I'm
> already on the road, so I'm keeping a 15 Cu Ft soft car top carrier
> in reserve just in case.
>

Where through NYS? If you're passing through or near Syracuse, let's hook
up. There's a Dunkin' Donuts or two in these parts...

> Thanks for the advice on the pads.

No problem - that's what I'm here for...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> That's probably true, but my schedule doesn't allow me to put the
> second coat on 2-8 hours after the first. I get a few hours in the
> shop in the evening, so it's typically multiples of 24 hours between
> coats.
>

Not to worry - under those requirements, you did the right thing.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Leon]

Actually I saw the bronze wool at Woodcraft, Luberon brand IIRC.

[Lew Hodgett]

"Leon" wrote:


> Actually I saw the bronze wool at Woodcraft, Luberon brand IIRC.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Definitely a marine item.

West Marine, Defender, and Jamestown Distributors are all stocking
chandleries.

Must admit that as usual, West Marine is not competitive.

Lew

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:21:43 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> >
> > That's probably true, but my schedule doesn't allow me to put the
> > second coat on 2-8 hours after the first. I get a few hours in the
> > shop in the evening, so it's typically multiples of 24 hours between
> > coats.
> >
>
> Not to worry - under those requirements, you did the right thing.
>

Frankly, I'm a little confused by the "less time, no sanding between coats"
method when it comes to WOP.

You guys, as well as folks in other forums, say that 2-3 coats of WOP can be
applied as soon as the previous coat is "dry to the touch". After that, the
common method seems to be to let those coats dry for 24 hours, then lightly
sand before doing another 2-3 "dry to the touch" coats. I understand the
reason behind this is that 2-3 coats of WOP is roughly equivalent to 1
coat of brush on poly.

My first bit of confusion comes from the fact that the Minwax can says to let
each coat dry 2-3 hours and then sand with 320 grit. In other words, sand
between each coat, even after only 2-3 hours. (More on this later.)

My second bit of confusion comes from fact that I'm not sure what "dry to the
touch" actually means. Let me explain, because this ties in with my confusion
regarding the Minwax instructions.

After 2-3 hours (and usually more) I find that the WOP is not what I would call
tacky, but it's definitely not completely dry. If I drag my fingers across the
surface they, well, they *drag*. It just doesn't feel like anything I would
want to sand, per the Minwax instructions. However, is that considered "dry to
the touch" in terms of being able to apply the next coat or is too soon? Should I wait until I feel no drag?

Can I wait 4-6 hours if that's what it takes for the drag to be gone? 8? In
other words, what's the tipping point between "It's OK to apply the next coat"
and "Oh crap, now you have to sand".

And why does Minwax say to sand between every coat in as little as 2-3 hours when the rest of world says you don't have to/shouldn't?

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:19:47 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> >
> > That's all I need to hold a soft roof top carrier on the rare
> > occasions that I may need to. I may never need to, but I'm preparing
> > for a loop through 3 cities in NYS to move 2 daughters into college
> > apartments. I won't know how much room I'll really need until I'm
> > already on the road, so I'm keeping a 15 Cu Ft soft car top carrier
> > in reserve just in case.
> >
>
> Where through NYS? If you're passing through or near Syracuse, let's hook
> up. There's a Dunkin' Donuts or two in these parts...
>

Do you mind if I reply via email?

[Leon]

http://www.amazon.com/Homax-Bronze-Steel-Wool-Coarse/dp/B000H5QDUO

[Leon]

On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit doing
>> that around 1990.
>
> It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere to old
> practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll get you into
> scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If people paid
> attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers, then you'd be right -
> no need to scuff. But...

Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at
least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between coats.
just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes.
Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last
coat of gel varnish.

[Mike Marlow]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> Wrote in message:

Please do.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[Leon]

Dry to touch such that you don't damage the coat or leave a finger
print. If the coat has not hardened/cured the next coat will naturally
blend and not need the "hook" for the next coat to bind to.

[Swingman]

On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Let the discussion begin!
>
> First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar.
>

> To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool, 400 grit
> sandpaper or something else?

Most of the time, nothing.

If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery bag
works as well as anything IME.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Mike Marlow]

Swingman wrote:
> On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> Let the discussion begin!
>>
>> First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to
>> poplar. To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool,
>> 400
>> grit sandpaper or something else?
>
> Most of the time, nothing.
>
> If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery
> bag works as well as anything IME.

I find this entire conversation (as it relates to wipe on poly) very
interesting. I would not have expected any poly to take a recoat after 2 or
3 hours, without a scuff. But - that's based on my (lack of) experience in
this particular area. Owing to the way I have always applied finishes to
wood, I always found myself in the position of applying a second coat a day
or two after the first coat, and that has always mandated scuffing the
finish to avoid dry drags with the second coat, and to ensure a good tooth
in the first coat.

Funny how that stuff goes - when I paint a car, I adhere religiously to the
specifications for recoat times, as well as for the times to go from base to
clear. In its most simple terms, that just means to allow the previous coat
to flash before moving forward. I do it in my sleep and don't even think
about it. But - these are much different chemical compounds. And I know,
for example, that I've got up to about 4 hours on a base coat before I have
to worry about scuffing before clear coat.

As I said - most likely owing to what I've used in the past, and how I've
used it, I just seem to be stuck in this mindset that poly goes on heavy
today, gets scuffed tomorrow or the next day, and then goes on heavy again
after that.

Ain't it just amazing what you can learn here...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[John McCoy]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:KJidnS8csKUS7ibI...@giganews.com:

> On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit
>>> doing that around 1990.
>>
>> It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere
>> to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll
>> get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If
>> people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers,
>> then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But...
>
> Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at
> least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between
> coats. just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes.
> Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last
> coat of gel varnish.

Basically what it depends on is how long it takes for the
varnish to cure. That's different from how long it takes
for it to dry. Dry means the solvent has evaporated, cured
means a chemical reaction has taken place between the varnish
molecules.

If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to
completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat
within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to
the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between varnish
types and brands. As Mike says, check the manufacture's
instructions (altho those are probably conservative).

Incidently, apparently a lot of "poly" varnishes today are
partly or mostly acrylic. I have no idea how that affects
recoat times.

John

[DerbyDad03]

I assume by "conservative" that you mean they probably want you to wait longer than is actually necessary.

The problem is, the Minwax WOP says to sand it after 2-3 hours. After 2-3 hours, in my experience, the WOP still seems to be too wet/tacky/sticky (pick a term) to sand. 2-3 hours seems - at least to me - to be a far cry from conservative.

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 9:47:55 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/30/2015 7:38 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > Let the discussion begin!
> >
> > First coat of Minwax Wipe-On Poly, Clear Satin has been applied to poplar.
> >
> > To prepare for the next coat, _would you use_ 0000 steel wool, 400 grit
> > sandpaper or something else?
>
> Most of the time, nothing.
>
> If there is any need whatsoever, a bit of brown paper from a grocery bag
> works as well as anything IME.
>

I've heard of that method.

It's too late for me to try it, but I don't think a paper bag would have knocked down the grain that was raised on the slats after the first coat of WOP. The 3M "between coats" pad did a really good job.

I think I'll try the paper bag trick on some scrap pieces to see how it works. I've still got that split slat to play with. ;-)

[Leon]

On 7/31/2015 9:26 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:KJidnS8csKUS7ibI...@giganews.com:
>
>> On 7/30/2015 9:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do some varnishes still request this step between coats? I quit
>>>> doing that around 1990.
>>>
>>> It all depends on how long you wait to recoat. People still adhere
>>> to old practices of one coat today, another coat tomorrow. That'll
>>> get you into scuffing the surface before applying a second coat. If
>>> people paid attention to recoat times specified by manufacturers,
>>> then you'd be right - no need to scuff. But...
>>
>> Well timing and type of varnish. Gel varnishes have never ever, at
>> least all of the brands that I use, required any scuffing between
>> coats. just one of the reasons that I use gel varnishes.
>> Now having said that, on occasion, I will scuff just before the last
>> coat of gel varnish.
>
> Basically what it depends on is how long it takes for the
> varnish to cure. That's different from how long it takes
> for it to dry. Dry means the solvent has evaporated, cured
> means a chemical reaction has taken place between the varnish
> molecules.

I have gone back a year later and touched up gel varnishes with no
problems. Gel varnishes work differently that typical liquid varnishes.

[Leon]

Temperature and humidity will have a lot to do with how fast the finish
dries. If unsure varnish a scrap and see if 2~3 hours is too soon to
sand. In any case if the surface is still sticky most sand paper is
going to gum up very quickly. Experimenting will tell you a lot.

[Leon]

You should really look at Old Masters Gel varnish. Gels are so hassle
free that you can actually apply to work on a dusty work surface. The
only trick is to apply, and Immediately wipe off the excess, and then
again immediately give a lite buffing.
And at that moment you can almost toss a hand full of saw dust on it
with no worries.
When dry to touch app allpy the next coat 5 hours later or 5 weeks
later, with no sanding.
I have been using gel varnishes almost exclusively since 1989. Oddly
however they only come in a semigloss/satin finish.

[Leon]

The bag does not work on splinters. ;~) But those easy to knock down
rough spots, that you can feel, disappear and the longer you wait the
better, several days. Paper is like a very fine grit sand paper that is
typically used to polish. I typically wrap a piece of used printer
paper around a block of wood and lightly rub the surface.

[John McCoy]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:KsidnU__SKdlAybI...@giganews.com:

> I have gone back a year later and touched up gel varnishes with no
> problems. Gel varnishes work differently that typical liquid varnishes.

Hmmm, I wouldn't count on that always working. Polyurethane
is polyurethane, regardless of what the carrier is; once it's
cured you never really know how well another coat will stick.

Incidently, I googled looking for info on what exactly is
different between gel varnish and regular. Unfortunately
it seems the main use of gel varnish is nail polish, and
pretty much all Google would return (other than places
selling Bartley's) was nail polish info.

John

[dadiOH]

You've never said whether you are using oil or water base varnish but still
sticky after 2-3 hours would indicate oil, right? If so I don't see
anything wrong, wait until it isn't sticky to sand if you just gotta sand
and that is going to be more that 2-3 hours.

But if you ARE going to sand, I'd wait longer - at least 24 hours - and if
you are after a baby butt smooth surface, wait two weeks to sand before the
last coat...it takes at least that long for oil poly to cure; if you sand
and recoat before it is totally cured, the thicker layer left in the pores
will continue to cure and shrink and there goes the flawless surface.
__________________________

FWIW, these are my experience with poly...

OIL
The only thing I've used oil poly on for years is my Saltillo tile floor (I
use lacquer or oil on furniture). I have 4000+ sq.ft. of it and
all except baseboards and trim (they are Saltillo too) has 3-4 (I try for
four) coats. It is generally applied ratherheavily...I pour out a line
about 5-6' wide and start pulling it around with a mohair applicator. As
soon as I can walk on it barefoot without sticking, I apply the next coat;
that time is never less that 3 hours, rarely much more that 4.

WATER
I have used it but don't like it. Things covered by it look dull and it
doesn't wear nearly as well as the oil base. I use it to keep a finish as
light as possible or (sometimes) to top coat acrylic "enamel" so stuff
doesn't stick to it. I did use it as an after thought on an oak dining
table; originally, I used BLO but some months later decided I wanted
somethng more durable so wiped on a few coats of water poly. There, it
looks OK because the oil provided color to the wood.

When I wipe it on, one coat follows another in an hour or less.
________________

Apropos to what John said about poly being a mix of poly and acrylic, I
believe that is correct for water base but IIRC the oil base is a mix of
poly and alkyd.

[Leon]

On 7/31/2015 12:30 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:KsidnU__SKdlAybI...@giganews.com:
>
>> I have gone back a year later and touched up gel varnishes with no
>> problems. Gel varnishes work differently that typical liquid varnishes.
>
> Hmmm, I wouldn't count on that always working. Polyurethane
> is polyurethane, regardless of what the carrier is; once it's
> cured you never really know how well another coat will stick.

As I have stated this does work with no issues, off and on for the past
25 years with an average usage of a gallon per year.

>
> Incidently, I googled looking for info on what exactly is
> different between gel varnish and regular. Unfortunately
> it seems the main use of gel varnish is nail polish, and
> pretty much all Google would return (other than places
> selling Bartley's) was nail polish info.
>
> John
>

Try looking at Old Masters, General Finishes, Miniwax, Lawrence
McFadden, and those are only the brands that I have used.

LMcF bought out Bartleys, and then went out of business, and now
Bartleys sells the product again, and LMcF has been purchased by another
company.

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:

> You should really look at Old Masters Gel varnish. Gels are so hassle
> free that you can actually apply to work on a dusty work surface. The
> only trick is to apply, and Immediately wipe off the excess, and then
> again immediately give a lite buffing.
> And at that moment you can almost toss a hand full of saw dust on it
> with no worries.
> When dry to touch app allpy the next coat 5 hours later or 5 weeks
> later, with no sanding.
> I have been using gel varnishes almost exclusively since 1989. Oddly
> however they only come in a semigloss/satin finish.

I guess I'm going to have to give the Gel varnish a try - just to try it if
nothing else. All I've ever used in my life is the standard paint on poly.
It seems there is quite a difference between it and the Gel type varnishes.
Oh God - more to learn...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 3:22:48 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 10:28:04 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>
> >> If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to
> >> completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat
> >> within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to
> >> the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between varnish
> >> types and brands. As Mike says, check the manufacture's
> >> instructions (altho those are probably conservative).
> >
> > I assume by "conservative" that you mean they probably want you to
> > wait longer than is actually necessary.
> >
> > The problem is, the Minwax WOP says to sand it after 2-3 hours. After
> > 2-3 hours, in my experience, the WOP still seems to be too
> > wet/tacky/sticky (pick a term) to sand. 2-3 hours seems - at least to
> > me - to be a far cry from conservative.
>
> You've never said whether you are using oil or water base varnish but still
> sticky after 2-3 hours would indicate oil, right?

Actually, I never said I was using varnish. I am not. I am using Minwax Wipe On Poly, but yes, it's the oil based version.

> If so I don't see
> anything wrong, wait until it isn't sticky to sand if you just gotta sand
> and that is going to be more that 2-3 hours.

OK, sort of...

It still doesn't make sense to me that the instructions on the Minwax product say to sand in 2-3 hours but no one in the real world agrees with that.

In any case, I should be around this weekend which will give me time to keep an eye on the dry time and apply more coats without the need to sand. Since wipe on poly goes on a lot thinner than brush on, I want to make sure I use enough, especially on the top of the nightstand.

400,000 cycles per month of a cell phone sliding on and off the nightstand will wear down the finish pretty quickly. After all, it is for a college student. ;-)

[J. Clarke]

In article <ef8de6df-3eef-45aa...@googlegroups.com>,
teama...@eznet.net says...

>
> On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 3:22:48 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> > DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 10:28:04 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> >
> > >> If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to
> > >> completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat
> > >> within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to
> > >> the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between varnish
> > >> types and brands. As Mike says, check the manufacture's
> > >> instructions (altho those are probably conservative).
> > >
> > > I assume by "conservative" that you mean they probably want you to
> > > wait longer than is actually necessary.
> > >
> > > The problem is, the Minwax WOP says to sand it after 2-3 hours. After
> > > 2-3 hours, in my experience, the WOP still seems to be too
> > > wet/tacky/sticky (pick a term) to sand. 2-3 hours seems - at least to
> > > me - to be a far cry from conservative.
> >
> > You've never said whether you are using oil or water base varnish but still
> > sticky after 2-3 hours would indicate oil, right?
>
> Actually, I never said I was using varnish. I am not. I am using Minwax Wipe On Poly, but yes, it's the oil based version.

Are you leaving a film like you would with brushed on, or are you
rubbing it in? If you're leaving a film, try rubbing it in instead.

[Leon]

With Old Masters, you can really over think it.

I posted a video of how quick this goes. Wipe it on in about an 18"
square area, immediately wipe of the excess, immediately buff out with
a different rag.

I use Scott Blue shop towels to apply, wipe off and to buff with. 3 to
4 coats.

As Nailshooter has indicated, this is an adult finish. It beautifies
the wood but does not protect against things kids might do to it, as
with any piece of fine furniture.

[Leon]

On 7/31/2015 2:55 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 3:22:48 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 31, 2015 at 10:28:04 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
>>
>>>> If I'm not mistaken, polyurethanes take 100 hours or more to
>>>> completely cure. So you should be safe applying a new coat
>>>> within that time without sanding, it will chemically bond to
>>>> the coat below. Of course, it likely does vary between
>>>> varnish types and brands. As Mike says, check the
>>>> manufacture's instructions (altho those are probably
>>>> conservative).
>>>
>>> I assume by "conservative" that you mean they probably want you
>>> to wait longer than is actually necessary.
>>>
>>> The problem is, the Minwax WOP says to sand it after 2-3 hours.
>>> After 2-3 hours, in my experience, the WOP still seems to be too
>>> wet/tacky/sticky (pick a term) to sand. 2-3 hours seems - at
>>> least to me - to be a far cry from conservative.
>>
>> You've never said whether you are using oil or water base varnish
>> but still sticky after 2-3 hours would indicate oil, right?
>
> Actually, I never said I was using varnish. I am not. I am using
> Minwax Wipe On Poly, but yes, it's the oil based version.

FWIW "varnish" is pretty much a generic term to describe any clear
protective finish including shellac, lacquer, etc. Basically a resin
dissolved in a liquid.

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:

>
> FWIW "varnish" is pretty much a generic term to describe any clear
> protective finish including shellac, lacquer, etc. Basically a resin
> dissolved in a liquid.
>

Now that's not at all what I have always understood varnish to be. In fact,
I've always understood it to be distinctly different from shellac. Nothing
similar in their qualities. Likewise lacquer. That might explain some of
the things that have come up in this thread. Shellac for example, behaves
much differently than polyurethane varnish does. It takes recoats
differently, etc. It reacts or cooperates with other finishes much
differently than other finishes do. I've just never seen the term varnish
to be a generic term - rather, a more specific term. I can't tell you the
chemical composition, but I've always seen it to be a very specific
compound. I don't really think it's safe to say "a resin dissolved in a
liquid" - that leaves way too much room for definition.

Having said that - Leon may be correct in that the term has roots in the way
he's saying, but I believe in today's vocabulary, the term varnish has a
completely different (more specific) meaning.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[DerbyDad03]

Uh oh...I suspect some interesting reactions to that statement.

While you are correct in saying that varnish is often used as a generic name for various clear finishes, I'm not sure that the wRec is the right environment to propagate the myth that all clear coatings are varnishes. You'll just confuse people like me!

We shouldn't call all photocopies "Xerox copies", we shouldn't call all personal watercraft "Jet Skis" and we shouldn't call all peanut butter and marshmallow spread sandwiches "Fluffernutters" - ahh...the memories. :-)

Since this thread is discussing - in detail - the application methods, dry time and durability of various finishes, I think it would be confusing if I responded to dadiOH by saying I was using an "oil based varnish" after I started the thread by saying I was using Wipe On Polyurethane.

[dadiOH]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

>> You've never said whether you are using oil or water base varnish
>> but still
>> sticky after 2-3 hours would indicate oil, right?
>
> Actually, I never said I was using varnish. I am not. I am using
> Minwax Wipe On Poly, but yes, it's the oil based version.

It is still varnish.

[Leon]

:). There can be varnish in your carb. :-).

[Leon]

:-)

[John McCoy]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:i5CdnfQLaI6TfybI...@giganews.com:

> FWIW "varnish" is pretty much a generic term to describe any clear
> protective finish including shellac, lacquer, etc. Basically a resin
> dissolved in a liquid.

Well, the Oxford English Dictionary agrees with you (and traces
the word back to a Greek word referring to a place in Asia Minor
where tree resin was collected).

But like Mike, I think in modern usage shellac and lacquer are
considered different, and varnish refers to the finishes which
have a polymerization reaction - polyurethane, epoxy, etc.

John

[Leon]

I'm not real sure if you could find a printed modern definition that
states your last paragraph, or something like that.
But I will agree that varnish is seen as something more specific.
Today a varnish is often simply called by its make up.

Hey BOB!, what kind of gasoline do you use in your car? I don't use
gasoline, I use Premium! LOL

[J. Clarke]

In article <FqednScCFMshRSHI...@giganews.com>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

More like "what kind of gasoline do you use in your care? I don't use
gasoline, I use diesel".

[DerbyDad03]

This site seems to do a decent job of differentiating between varnish and polyurethane. Well, at least is seems like a decent job to a rookie like me.

Stolen without permission from:

http://www.shesails.net/tag/varnish-vs-polyurethane/

Varnish:

Varnish is made from a combination of resin (either plant-derived or synthetic), drying oils (most often tung or linseed), solvents (turpentine, etc.), UV protectors, and sometimes driers. Traditional knowledge says that varnishes give superior UV protection to wood that gets sun exposure, and a relatively long-lasting, flexible finish. Varnish's flexibility makes it ideal for moving parts which might cause other harder finishes to crack, allowing moisture to damage the wood.

A proper varnish job requires a somewhat experienced hand, not only for a nice-looking finish, but also to ensure that the finish takes. If done improperly, varnish can crack, peel, delaminate, bubble, or never fully harden. Varnishing also requires a somewhat dust-free environment, nice weather, and lots of time to apply many coats. For our purposes on Clearwater, we tend only to use varnish on exterior wood that has a low likelihood of getting banged or chafed, such as hatch covers, since touch-ups are somewhat challenging and time consuming. Someone who knows what they are doing should scuff and apply a top coat of varnish once per season.

Polyurethane:

Polyurethane is a finish/sealant that has a very similar application and appearance to varnish, and therefore the two are often used interchangeably. Polyurethane differs from varnish in many ways that don't matter to us very much, namely the way it is made, and the chemical process it goes through to "kick". What IS relevant to us is that a polyurethane finish tends to be MUCH harder than varnish, meaning it holds up much better under certain circumstances. The down side is that it also tends to be less flexible, which means that it will crack much more easily on pieces that flex.

A point about UV protection: I've always been told that the difference between varnish and poly is that varnish protects against UV damage and poly doesn't. From what I gather, this isn't fully true, at least anymore. Both varnish and poly CAN contain UV protective additives, but from what I've read, over the long haul, the UV filters in polyurethane break down faster than those in varnish. I have not myself worked on the same piece of half-varnished and half-polyurethaned wood for 10 years, so I can't speak from personal experience.

[John McCoy]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:4d30ce9d-1cfe-48f2...@googlegroups.com:

> On Saturday, August 1, 2015 at 10:33:35 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 8/1/2015 9:07 AM, John McCoy wrote:

>> > But like Mike, I think in modern usage shellac and lacquer are
>> > considered different, and varnish refers to the finishes which
>> > have a polymerization reaction - polyurethane, epoxy, etc.

>> I'm not real sure if you could find a printed modern definition that
>> states your last paragraph, or something like that.

I doubt you could. It's just what "I think" when I hear varnish.
I don't think of shellac or lacquer, I think of poly or epoxy
or something like that, and I think that's a common reaction.

> This site seems to do a decent job of differentiating between varnish
> and polyurethane. Well, at least is seems like a decent job to a
> rookie like me.
>
> Stolen without permission from:
>
> http://www.shesails.net/tag/varnish-vs-polyurethane/

That site is comparing what we used to call "spar varnish" with
polyurethane varnish. I wouldn't take it as the definitive
word (and even amoung sailors, in my experience "varnish"
isn't taken to mean exclusively spar varnish, unless it's
obvious from the context).

John

[dadiOH]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

> This site seems to do a decent job of differentiating between varnish
> and polyurethane. Well, at least is seems like a decent job to a
> rookie like me.

I keep telling you...oil poly IS varnish. (So is water poly, just not a
very good one).

> Stolen without permission from:
>
> http://www.shesails.net/tag/varnish-vs-polyurethane/
>
> Varnish:
>
> Varnish is made from a combination of resin (either plant-derived or
> synthetic), drying oils (most often tung or linseed), solvents
> (turpentine, etc.), UV protectors, and sometimes driers.

Urethane/polyurethane is a resin. Mix it with the other stuff and you have
varnish.

[Leon]

Yup! LOL As many don't understand, varnish is not made a specific way.
Varnish is made many many many many ways.

What kind of wood did you use? I did not use wood, I used oak.

[J. Clarke]

In article <9IGdnUCVdqMF3SDI...@giganews.com>, lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

The distinction is generally that the "resin" in varnish is soluble in
the carrier--recoat and it blends right in. Cured polyurethane is not
soluble in much and certainly not in the carrier solvent.

[Leon]

FWIW my current gel varnish of choice is Old Masters.

If you do a search of varnish on their site it brings up Spar-Marine
Varnish, Oil-based Polyurethane, Tung Oil Varnish, Penetrating sealer
to just name the first 4.

http://www.myoldmasters.com/search.htm

Additionally, the specific product that I use is

http://www.myoldmasters.com/products-intclear-oilbased-gelpoly.htm

It is a gel polyurethane varnish. Application indicated dry to touch in
5 to 6 hours and wait at least 6 hours before reapplication.
Sanding between coats in not necessary. Reapply, 2~3 coats and
basically the more the better.
Given those specific instructions, there is no maximum wait time between
coats indicated. I have reapplied as long as a year later using this
specific product.

[J. Clarke]

In article <rtWdnSYAt5wi2iDI...@giganews.com>, lcb11211

Does that method work 20 years later like it does with the kind of
varnish in which the carrier is the solvent for the resin?

[Leon]

What method? I have been using gel varnishes since 1989. I have had to
clean and reapply the gel varnish on our old kitchen that I built in
1991. That was probably over 8 years ago. My son now owns that house
and there is no issue. The original gel varnish was Bartleys. I either
recoated with Bartleys or Lawrence McFadden. I was switching brands
when LMcF bought Bartleys gel stains and varnishes and I was buying
direct from LMcF.

[J. Clarke]

In article <75SdncKGD8XN0iDI...@giganews.com>, lcb11211

Clean and reapply is not the same as repairing a damaged spot.

> That was probably over 8 years ago. My son now owns that house
> and there is no issue.

What "issue" would there be?

> The original gel varnish was Bartleys. I either
> recoated with Bartleys or Lawrence McFadden. I was switching brands
> when LMcF bought Bartleys gel stains and varnishes and I was buying
> direct from LMcF.

I wasn't talking about "recoating".

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/1/2015 5:56 PM, Leon wrote:

> What kind of wood did you use? I did not use wood, I used oak.
>
>

OK then don't varnish it. Paint it and buy a kit to make it look like
pine.

[John McCoy]

"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.30270c41c...@news.eternal-september.org:

> The distinction is generally that the "resin" in varnish is soluble in
> the carrier--recoat and it blends right in. Cured polyurethane is not
> soluble in much and certainly not in the carrier solvent.

OK, that's a new one that I hadn't ever heard before (altho
just as valid as the definition I gave a couple of posts
up thread, I guess).

Aside from shellac and lacquer, which finishes dissolve and
blend with prior coats? I don't think any of those which are
commonly sold with "varnish" in the name do so...

John

[J. Clarke]

In article <XnsA4EA6123AB9...@213.239.209.88>,
igo...@ix.netcom.com says...

The urethanes certainly don't. But the alkyds can--most drying oils are
soluble in fairly mild solvents. Really depends on how it's made.

[Leon]

I don't recall any one mentioning anything other than applying another
coat to a well cured surface.

[dadiOH]

J. Clarke wrote:

> The distinction is generally that the "resin" in varnish is soluble in
> the carrier--recoat and it blends right in.

Not IMO unless you consider shellac and lacqer to be varnish. Which I
don't.

> Cured polyurethane is not
> soluble in much and certainly not in the carrier solvent.

Neither is alkyd or phenolic resin, acrylic either for that matter.