dewalt announcement today.

[woodchucker]

News, not really.

But they really need to be clear. First the guy references the 18volts.
Then he starts calling them 20volts .. the new product is 60v.
Nothing really new.
But the 20v is not a 20 volt battery, yet he seems to keep saying 20
volt, not 20v.. I think they are open to a lawsuit for misrepresenting
the voltage... and how much voltage will that 60v have.. well he says 60
volts. after seeing the 20v be 18, I wonder how many volts it really is.
So their marketing gimick of 20v to confuse , has confused them.. It's
not 20volts, its a 20v or 18volt battery.
--
Jeff

[FrozenNorth]

That 60v must be one heavy sumbitch, my 14.4v gets heavy after an hour
or so driving in deck screws.

--
Froz....

[Leon]

I think we discussed this here several months ago. IIRC it was how
they differentiate between Li-ion and older technology batteries.

Many do it to some extent.

[woodchucker]

well, we did, but now they are clearly not using it to differentiate.
They are mis-representing an 18v as a 20v.
Same cells.

What they have done with the 20v is now they have 20v series, 20v
parallel more cells for longer run time.
But they are saying their cells are 4v when in fact they are the same
cells as everyone elses. (claim is not a differentiatior.. it's an
outright lie).

They are now saying their 60 volt (60v) yes they say its 60volts is 15 x
4volt cells. well thy are really 3.7volt cells. 55.5 volts. But using
the fully charged voltage when it's topped off to represent it's run
time which is wrong. all 18volts then would be 20volts. But they aren't.
Anyway the 60v (real heavy) will switch to 20v parallel when plugged
into a 20v unit to give a longer run time... great 3 times the weight..
why not carry 3 batteries and keep rotating with less weight. I agree
that 60volts is good for big ass tools, but let's face it, I'm not
sticking it in my drill.

The lies are rampant. The idea is limited.. it has its uses, but not
like they show. Just too heavy. Oh, and this is the pro line now, which
I guess the other stuff is no longer considered pro. sorry all you
contractors, you're stuff is now consumer grade.

--
Jeff

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 6/21/2016 4:14 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:

>
> That 60v must be one heavy sumbitch, my 14.4v gets heavy after an hour
> or so driving in deck screws.
>

I just bought a weed machine with a 40v battery. It is no heavier than
my 15.6v battery pack. Not sure of the amp- hour rating difference though.

[Leon]

While actual voltage matters, does it really? FWIW My so called 15
series Festool drill will out perform many 18 volt tools and the 15 is
an implied 15 volt. So what ever the voltage, any ones 20 volt may not
perform as well as any one else's 18 volt drill.

So IMHO the number used to represent a voltage or strength is relative.

[krw]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:36:06 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>On 6/21/2016 4:14 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
>
>>
>> That 60v must be one heavy sumbitch, my 14.4v gets heavy after an hour
>> or so driving in deck screws.

Twice as many cells, each half the size?

>>
>
>I just bought a weed machine with a 40v battery. It is no heavier than
>my 15.6v battery pack. Not sure of the amp- hour rating difference though.

Probably half. ;-)

For a given technology and weight, you're going to get about the same
energy storage. For the same weight, a 20V battery will be about
twice the AH as a 40V battery. Of course there is a little difference
in the amount of plastic involved but the above rule of thumb will
work pretty well.

[krw]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:43:26 -0400, woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:

They aren't the only ones. This is very common with LiIon batteries.
Assume 4V/cell. They charge at about 4.1-4.2V and discharge down to
about 3.6V. 5x4.1V~=20V. 5x3.6V~=18V. Pick your poison. You can't
have half a cell, so 18V and 20V batteries *must* be the same thing.
In fact, I have a bunch of 12V Bosch batteries. The older ones say
10.8V and the newer ones, 12V. Other than the label, they're
identical.

[krw]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:32:45 -0400, woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:

>On 6/21/2016 4:21 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 6/21/2016 2:43 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> News, not really.
>>>
>>> But they really need to be clear. First the guy references the 18volts.
>>> Then he starts calling them 20volts .. the new product is 60v.
>>> Nothing really new.
>>> But the 20v is not a 20 volt battery, yet he seems to keep saying 20
>>> volt, not 20v.. I think they are open to a lawsuit for misrepresenting
>>> the voltage... and how much voltage will that 60v have.. well he says 60
>>> volts. after seeing the 20v be 18, I wonder how many volts it really is.
>>> So their marketing gimick of 20v to confuse , has confused them.. It's
>>> not 20volts, its a 20v or 18volt battery.
>>
>>
>> I think we discussed this here several months ago. IIRC it was how
>> they differentiate between Li-ion and older technology batteries.
>>
>> Many do it to some extent.
>
>well, we did, but now they are clearly not using it to differentiate.
>They are mis-representing an 18v as a 20v.
>Same cells.

Or misrepresenting 20V as 18V. 2MAYtoe/taMahtoe

>What they have done with the 20v is now they have 20v series, 20v
>parallel more cells for longer run time.

They generally don't parallel cells. It's cheaper to use a larger
cell.

>But they are saying their cells are 4v when in fact they are the same
>cells as everyone elses. (claim is not a differentiatior.. it's an
>outright lie).

No, they charge at about 4V and will be 4V immediately after charge.
They'll quickly drop but it's all in the measurement. One measurement
isn't right and the other wrong.

>
>They are now saying their 60 volt (60v) yes they say its 60volts is 15 x
>4volt cells. well thy are really 3.7volt cells. 55.5 volts. But using
>the fully charged voltage when it's topped off to represent it's run
>time which is wrong. all 18volts then would be 20volts. But they aren't.
>Anyway the 60v (real heavy) will switch to 20v parallel when plugged
>into a 20v unit to give a longer run time... great 3 times the weight..
>why not carry 3 batteries and keep rotating with less weight. I agree
>that 60volts is good for big ass tools, but let's face it, I'm not
>sticking it in my drill.

Face it. It's easy to figure out and it's not fooling anyone. No one
buys a 60V tool because it has more power than a "55.5V tool".

>
>The lies are rampant. The idea is limited.. it has its uses, but not
>like they show. Just too heavy. Oh, and this is the pro line now, which
>I guess the other stuff is no longer considered pro. sorry all you
>contractors, you're stuff is now consumer grade.

Not lies at all.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You are wrong - laptop batteries will often be available as 3, 6, or 9
cell -- all of them being 11.1 volt

[Leon]

In this case that have 3 sets of 5 cells connected in parallel that some
way can chance to run into a single series to up the voltage.

>
>> But they are saying their cells are 4v when in fact they are the same
>> cells as everyone elses. (claim is not a differentiatior.. it's an
>> outright lie).
>
> No, they charge at about 4V and will be 4V immediately after charge.
> They'll quickly drop but it's all in the measurement. One measurement
> isn't right and the other wrong.

Exactly, depending on the state of charge the voltage will be different.
It is mostly at 18 volt but can be below that when neatly exhausted. Is
this deceiving, not IMHO unless you do not expect voltage to drop with use.

Additionally if these batteries work like batteries with a different make
up their measured voltage can drop significantly while operating under a
load and then immediately show a higher voltage while under no load.

>>
>> They are now saying their 60 volt (60v) yes they say its 60volts is 15 x
>> 4volt cells. well thy are really 3.7volt cells. 55.5 volts. But using
>> the fully charged voltage when it's topped off to represent it's run
>> time which is wrong. all 18volts then would be 20volts. But they aren't.
>> Anyway the 60v (real heavy) will switch to 20v parallel when plugged
>> into a 20v unit to give a longer run time... great 3 times the weight..
>> why not carry 3 batteries and keep rotating with less weight. I agree
>> that 60volts is good for big ass tools, but let's face it, I'm not
>> sticking it in my drill.

3 sets of batteries would certainly be more expensive than a single. I
have an 18 volt battery that weighs significantly less than another of my
12 volt batteries. While it would be reasonable to assume that the 60 volt
might be heavier than a 20 volt battery you would need facts to determine
if the 60 will be too heavy for a drill. I recall when 18 volt batteries
weighed more than the drill, that is not the rule today.

[krw]

What chemistry is 11.1V?? You mean that the batteries are often made
from parallel *batteries*. OK, but the point is that the individual
cells are *not* paralleled.

[Leon]

And doing a little research, this new Flexvolt system is not intended to
be used with the XL series hand drills. It is intended to be used with
more HD usage equipment.

[woodchucker]

On 6/22/2016 8:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>> No, they charge at about 4V and will be 4V immediately after charge.
>> > They'll quickly drop but it's all in the measurement. One measurement
>> > isn't right and the other wrong.
> Exactly, depending on the state of charge the voltage will be different.
> It is mostly at 18 volt but can be below that when neatly exhausted. Is
> this deceiving, not IMHO unless you do not expect voltage to drop with use.

It is deceiving, when it is the same battery that everyone else declares
to be 18volt and they are calling it 20volt .
The argument we had about is V volt, or naming. If it's naming, it's
deceiving, but less so. But once they call it 20volt, when the rest of
the world calls that same cell configuration in a pack an 18volt..
that's past deception. They lied. Typical marketing stuff. Lie so you
can get the sale.

>
> Additionally if these batteries work like batteries with a different make
> up their measured voltage can drop significantly while operating under a
> load and then immediately show a higher voltage while under no load.
>
>
>
>>> >>

--
Jeff

[Leon]

On 6/22/2016 2:44 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 6/22/2016 8:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> No, they charge at about 4V and will be 4V immediately after charge.
>>> > They'll quickly drop but it's all in the measurement. One measurement
>>> > isn't right and the other wrong.
>> Exactly, depending on the state of charge the voltage will be different.
>> It is mostly at 18 volt but can be below that when neatly exhausted. Is
>> this deceiving, not IMHO unless you do not expect voltage to drop with
>> use.
>
> It is deceiving, when it is the same battery that everyone else declares
> to be 18volt and they are calling it 20volt .
> The argument we had about is V volt, or naming. If it's naming, it's
> deceiving, but less so. But once they call it 20volt, when the rest of
> the world calls that same cell configuration in a pack an 18volt..
> that's past deception. They lied. Typical marketing stuff. Lie so you
> can get the sale.

Well If you feel uneasy about the way they market their products I would
certainly suggest not buying that brand. I personally try to leave my
emotions out of the decision making as I personally prefer tools that
are performers. Packaging does not tell you if the tool will be
powerful or good enough for the job so much as trying to sell the
details on specs, which very well may not matter, and not actual
performance comparisons.

I really do not care about the specs being precise to the n'th
degree on the description label. I have mentioned this before, Festool
ranks their drills by 12, 15, and 18 series. The 12 is actually a 10.8
volt, 15 is actually 14.4 volt and the 18 is actually 18 volt. The
labeling is simply a reference as to which drills are going to be
stronger. That is OK with me, I was going to go for an 18 but was told
that the 15 has plenty of power and I would be satisfied going from a 12
volt Makita drill and impact to the 15 Festool. So much better is the
Festool 15 than the Makita 12 that I have all but quit using an impact
to drive screws including an 18 volt Bosch impact.

The stated or implied voltage is not an indicator of power between
different brand lines, only between same brand lines. You can often see
performance comparisons of "same voltage" drills and 99% of the time
there is a difference in power depending on the brand.

What you should be focused on when buying a tool is if it will do what
you need it to do.

[Bill]

Leon wrote:
>
> What you should be focused on when buying a tool is if it will do what
> you need it to do.

Just curious, does Consumer Reports provide any meaningful comparison
data? A certain Woodworking mag? I've run across such across broad
drill comparisons before.

Trivia fact: in the early 19-teens, the womens broad jump was renamed to
the womens long jump.

Bill

[krw]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:09:25 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:

The name of the men's event was changed at some point, too (probably
the same time). I remember the name charge sometime around 1960 but
it may have taken some time to get down to the public schools. I was
jumping over 8' broads in the sixth grade. ;-)

[Unknown]

krw <k...@nowhere.com> wrote in news:mbammbpq2be3uor36hr6fe6ubbgs13ckn4@
4ax.com:

> The name of the men's event was changed at some point, too (probably
> the same time). I remember the name charge sometime around 1960 but
> it may have taken some time to get down to the public schools. I was
> jumping over 8' broads in the sixth grade. ;-)
>

If you're jumping over 8' broads, you need to reorganize your shop to get
the material storage out of the work space. :-)

Puckdropper

[Bill]

The year I was referring to corresponded to the "Olympic" event.

> I was
> jumping over 8' broads in the sixth grade. ;-)

Lucky you! ; )

[J. Clarke]

In article <576b4ec5$0$29129$c3e8da3$3863...@news.astraweb.com>,
Puckdropper says...

School must have had a Hell of a women's basketball team.

[krw]

The "Amazons". ;-)

[krw]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 23:28:25 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>

wrote:

>krw wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:09:25 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> What you should be focused on when buying a tool is if it will do what
>>>> you need it to do.
>>> Just curious, does Consumer Reports provide any meaningful comparison
>>> data? A certain Woodworking mag? I've run across such across broad
>>> drill comparisons before.
>>>
>>> Trivia fact: in the early 19-teens, the womens broad jump was renamed to
>>> the womens long jump.
>>>
>> The name of the men's event was changed at some point, too (probably
>> the same time). I remember the name charge sometime around 1960 but
>> it may have taken some time to get down to the public schools.
>
>The year I was referring to corresponded to the "Olympic" event.
>

Yes, and at some point the PCness filtered down from Mt. Olympus.

>> I was
>> jumping over 8' broads in the sixth grade. ;-)
>
>Lucky you! ; )

It was all I could do well. ;-)

[Electric Comet]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:43:26 -0400

woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:

> News, not really.

it is all clear now

are they going up in voltage to increase power output and because
the batteries are lighter or just for more power

[Brewster]

All the arguments about battery pack voltages aside, higher voltage can
be used to produce more torque. Motors have windings which all have some
amount of resistance. This resistance results in a voltage drop and with
a higher available voltage, the percentage of 'wasted' power due to the
voltage drop is less. Motor torque is proportional to current. A higher
voltage also lets you increase the available motor current and/or allows
for more windings in the motor.

One early example of this 'voltage war' is people who upgrade old VW bug
6 Volt electrical systems to 12 Volt. The starter motors are a lot more
peppy with more available current.

-BR

[Electric Comet]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 08:35:27 -0600
Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote:

> All the arguments about battery pack voltages aside, higher voltage
> can be used to produce more torque. Motors have windings which all

lighter batteries now means they can keep the weight in control but
still provide more power


my old dewalt was on the heavy side