Wooden outdoor furniture: Headache?

[Greg Guarino]

We've had thoughts about finally revamping our back yard. Life has
recently thrown us a curve that may delay that (again), but I'll ask
anyway.

I'm thinking primarily of an outdoor dining table; simple, farmhouse
style. I'd like it to be over-large, but I'd also like to be able to put
it in a shed for the winter, so I'd probably build two normal-sized
tables instead, with removable legs.

So firstly, is this a stupid idea? Will I simply be building myself a
neverending project; one that will need refinishing every year or two?
We live in NY City; a pretty "versatile" climate with high humidity in
the summer, and of course, rain. The table would sit on concrete. We'd
keep some sort of fabric awning/umbrella over it, but nothing that would
truly keep it from the elements, (except in the winter).

If it's not stupid, what sort of wood should I build it from? Are there
perhaps plastic "cups" that are designed to protect the bottoms of (say)
4x4s where they would touch the ground? If I were to use metal fasteners
(for the legs, plus possibly pocket screws elsewhere), would those be
problematic over time?

[Sonny]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 11:00:01 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:

Are there
> perhaps plastic "cups" that are designed to protect the bottoms of (say)
> 4x4s where they would touch the ground?

Cast aluminum Simpson post supports: https://www.google.com/search?q=cast+aluminum+simpson+post+supports&espv=2&rlz=1C1PQHA_enUS574US586&biw=1280&bih=841&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxt86EyILOAhUQ7GMKHfxKB44Q_AUIBygA&dpr=1

Apply (make your own) trim along the bottom, 1/4" above the "floor", to conceal the metal supports. You don't want your trim touching the "floor". https://www.diyhomecenter.com/deckorators/deckorators-4x4-pressure-treated-post-base-trim-72412.aspx?gclid=CL6khunIgs4CFdU6gQodWOoAmg

Sonny

[DerbyDad03]

Or use adjustable glides to compensate for uneven concrete:

http://www.patioproducts.com/30410and30411.asp

[dadiOH]

"Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nmo75r$9dr$1...@dont-email.me...

How pretty do you want it? If it were me, I'd make it with PT lumber and
paint it; that would be IMO the easiest upkeep. Next best - again, IMO -
would be a prettier wood and oil; yes, you have to redo the oil now and then
but it easy and fast and it will easily last one season, probably more.
When I was living on a sail boat I made all the blocks and belaying pins
from teak, finished with oil and they were still fine when I moved off 10
years later.

As far as leg protectors, you already have some suggestions. Another is
large rubber corks. I am going to use them when I get to making my sofa
tables, not for protection but to level...

1. drill holes on legs

2. recess T nuts or threaded inserts in holes

3. bolt corks to a wood round slightly smaller than hole, recess bolt head
and nut

4. screw cork and attached wood round intto holes in legs

The wood round really isn't needed, I am using it simply for appearance.

2. bolt

[whit3rd]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 9:00:01 AM UTC-7, Greg Guarino wrote:
> We've had thoughts about finally revamping our back yard....

> I'm thinking primarily of an outdoor dining table; simple, farmhouse
> style.

There are a number of woods that will weather gracefully, give over
a decade of service. Redwood, alaskan yellow cedar, teak are all
traditional, some new and less familiar woods (Ipe?) are available.
Slat-with-gaps tabletop is a good idea, keeps water from accumulating on
a cupped surface.

Joinery is important, too: you can't use long screws (the wood
will swell and shrink, and long screws will work loose), and glue
choices are limited. Best is to use dowels or pegs or wedges, maybe with SS
hardware secured with short screws...

Avoid treated lumber; it is OK with damp, but doesn't take sunlight and
wet/dry cycling gracefully. Most finishes are less durable than the
woods, so i'd leave the surface bare, and plan on a yearly scrub-down,
maybe a light sanding when needed. Pumice scrub on teak was how
old sailing ships kept a splinter-free deck!

[Dr. Deb]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 11:00:01 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:

There is no reason to put it in the shed, after all its an outdoor table. Given where you live (I cannot say NYC without thinking of the Pace Pecante sauce ad from years ago), but not knowing "Where" in the confines of the city you live, let me offer the following - assuming you want to do this at a reasonable price. Use white oak, its locally available, it weathers well and if you have a planer, you can get it cheap from a sawmill within driving distance. Then forget screws and glue - draw bore the sucker. Gluing will not hurt (Titbond III - avoid Gorilla) but it is not necessary. You have barns in the country around your area that are three hundred years old, some are built out of white oak (though a lot were out of chestnut, which is no longer available, thanks to the Chinese) They are still standing and doing well. The only thing holding them together, besides very good joinery, are the dowels used to draw bore it.

If you have never done any draw boring, its simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgYoawkLmVk

Sellers makes his pegs, but you can buy them at your local hardware store. The important part is to taper the beginning two inches of the dowel to allow it to get through the offset hole.

Then I would finish the table with a good exterior oil and just reapply whenever you think it needs it.

[John McCoy]

Greg Guarino <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in news:nmo75r$9dr$1@dont-
email.me:

> So firstly, is this a stupid idea?

Adirondack chairs have been around for a while, and seem to
hold up fairly well (and in more or less your climate, to
boot), so with good wood choice it should be OK.

> If I were to use metal fasteners
> (for the legs, plus possibly pocket screws elsewhere), would those be
> problematic over time?

Well, you could use Monel or silicon bronze and be confident
they'd last (and cost you a fortune), but I'd go with stainless
steel. Jamestown Distributors usually has good prices on all
manner of stainless fasteners.

BTW, I wouldn't worry too much about whit3rd's comment on long
screws. Long screws are used all over the place in boatbuilding
without issues.

John

[whit3rd]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 1:29:20 PM UTC-7, John McCoy wrote:
> Greg Guarino <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in news:nmo75r$9dr$1@dont-
> email.me:

> BTW, I wouldn't worry too much about whit3rd's comment on long
> screws. Long screws are used all over the place in boatbuilding
> without issues.

Yeah, but... how many drying-out cycles does a boat get?

[Trenbidia]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:03:10 -0700, whit3rd wrote:


> There are a number of woods that will weather gracefully, give over a
> decade of service. Redwood, alaskan yellow cedar, teak are all
> traditional, some new and less familiar woods (Ipe?) are available.

The last I heard, lignum vitae was still being used for wooden bearings -
even under water! Probably never find pieces big enough for a table, but
how about as a turned bottom for each leg?



--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[Kirk Wasson]

I build outdoor furniture out of cypress. It is getting more expensive each year because no one is growing it. I have chairs that have been in the weather for 20 years with nothing more than some polyurethane every couple of years. The last great cypress I bought was from Wilson Lumber in Memphis.
The neat thing is after all these years, when the sun heats up my Adirondack chair I can smell the fresh lumber.

[Ed Pawlowski]

So many options. Wood choice depends on budget and how long you want it
to last. Anything good for decks is probably good for the table. Look
at some of the wood here for ideas http://www.advantagelumber.com/

Avoid pressure treated. Do you want to put your food and beverages on
chemically saturated wood? Even construction grade lumber will get you
7 to 10 years with minimal care. some of the exotics will last 50+
years with no treatment. Stainless steel screws, of course.

Putting it away in winter is good, but a blue tarp will give you plenty
of protection.

I've had good results with cypress, spanish cedar, mahogany decking
material, and tiger wood. UV is the worst factor for it turning grey so
use an oil with UV protection and try to keep it covered. Next is
ground contact. Any sort of rubber pad makes a difference keeping the
end grain from contact with dampness.

[notbob]

On 2016-07-20, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

> I've had good results with cypress, spanish cedar, mahogany decking
> material, and tiger wood. UV is the worst factor for it turning grey so
> use an oil with UV protection and try to keep it covered.

I'm certainly no expert, but would gladly argue this point. Are you
saying wood turning "grey" is solely a UV issue?

In CA, redwood is almost universally used fer decks and fences. Using
it fer fences is a hoot, as the same ppl that can afford redwood fencing
are also usually the same ppl that have automatic lawn sprinklers.

Wanna see grey? Everywhere water hits a redwood fence, it turns
grey. It's a given! Water hits fence, fence is grey. You can take
it to the bank. ;)

nb

[G. Ross]

After watching the perfesser in that video I feel like all my
woodworking has been just hacking. As Stringbean used to say, "Lord I
feel so unnecessary".

--
GW Ross

If it walks out of your refrigerator,
LET IT GO !!

[Electric Comet]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:59:41 -0400
Greg Guarino <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If it's not stupid, what sort of wood should I build it from? Are
> there perhaps plastic "cups" that are designed to protect the bottoms
> of (say) 4x4s where they would touch the ground? If I were to use
> metal fasteners (for the legs, plus possibly pocket screws
> elsewhere), would those be problematic over time?

kiln dried is what swing sets are made from

there are so many fastener choices that it is better to design what
kind of table you want and then go find the fastener


if you want detachable legs you could just use bolts and big wingnuts

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:59:41 -0400, Greg Guarino <gdgu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Make it out of Trex?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Mostly UV. the wood I have out of direct sun is still OK even though it
gets wet. Are you saying the sun does not hit those fences? Argue away.

http://jackiehouse.com/outdoor-wood-turn-grey-time/
Just like you shedding dead skin cells, the dull grey patina that old
wood takes on is purely dead wood fibers brought about by UV rays coming
from the sun and yes, even sealed wood will over time, turn grey.
Considering that wood cannot regenerate fresh wood fibers on its own,
you have to slough off the dull grey color on your own.


https://blog.advantagelumber.com/2011/11/14/why-does-wood-turn-grey/
Why Does Wood Turn Grey?

The natural weathering process of wood is a combination of chemical,
mechanical, biological and light-induced changes, all of which occur
simultaneously and affect each other. For instance, as air moves over
the surface of a wood deck, dust, pollen, dirt, and air pollutants
replace the exposed colored cells of the wood. This slow transformation
is also made possible through the exposure of the sun’s ultraviolet
rays, or salt particles in coastal areas. Depending on the species of
wood, these changes can occur anywhere between a few months to years.

http://www.a1-fence.com/why-cedar-turns-grey-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/
Why does this happen? There are two culprits: water and sun.

Water erodes the outer layer of the wood cells that are still alive and
well in a plank of cedar. They are busy producing the natural oils which
gives cedar its nice color and smell.

Then the sun’s UV rays come in to dry out those oils. UV rays can also
fade the colors of just about anything over time. That’s why as I
evaluated the best stain brand for a cedar fence I spent a lot of time
looking at how well any given stain resisted the sun’s UV rays.

[Leon]

Ipe, Teak, Mahogany, Redwood

Or and I have seen this multiple times, furniture bouilt out of the
composit decking materials. I have seen this in multiple colors, blue,
yellow, brown, green, red, white and the normal deck colors.

https://www.google.com/search?q=composite+deck+furniture&rlz=1C1CHUE_enUS575US575&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=653&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizy7y93ITOAhVZImMKHXO9ByoQ_AUIBygC

[Jack]

On 7/20/2016 7:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Avoid pressure treated. Do you want to put your food and beverages on
> chemically saturated wood? Even construction grade lumber will get you
> 7 to 10 years with minimal care. some of the exotics will last 50+
> years with no treatment. Stainless steel screws, of course.

If the table will be sitting on grass or dirt, at least make the legs
out of PT wood. Wood in contact with dirt and grass in your climate
will rot in no time, it is designed to do just that. I would make the
whole thing out of PT lumber and not worry at all about it. All wood,
off the ground and built so it will not stay damp for long periods will
last a long, long time. Where it cannot dry out, like in joints, and
where it makes contact with other pieces will stay damp and will rot
first. PT wood will not rot and stays nice. You need to stain it, or
it will crack and discolor. Best to use solid wood stain. You will need
to refinish every few years, but mainly just where the sun hits it.

My son built this picnic table when he was in HS, and it's been in Pgh
weather ever since, about 15 years. It been refinished 2x and only the
top parts, never flipped over to refinish. Takes about 15 minutes to
rough sand and 20 minutes to repaint, but only if you leave it go long
enough to need some sanding, which you will. You need to leave it out a
year or two before staining, to insure it is dry when stained, or the
stain will not hold up. It is fastened with galvanized bolts and deck
screws.

Here it is unfinished:
http://jbstein.com/Photos/woodwork/DCP2_1327.jpg

and 15 years later, finished:
http://jbstein.com/Photos/Woodwork/P1030520.jpg

If you own a Texas oil well, you might be better off using Teak, but use
PT where anything is sitting on bare NY ground.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

[John McCoy]

whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in news:49c4fd53-1c85-4d5c-a4e4-
d4fd62...@googlegroups.com:

Depends on what size it is. A small boat, like my dinghy, is
likely to get pulled out of the water frequently. But it's
still likely to have long screws for parts like the skeg.

John

[Leon]

On 7/21/2016 10:56 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 7/20/2016 7:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> Avoid pressure treated. Do you want to put your food and beverages on
>> chemically saturated wood? Even construction grade lumber will get you
>> 7 to 10 years with minimal care. some of the exotics will last 50+
>> years with no treatment. Stainless steel screws, of course.
>
> If the table will be sitting on grass or dirt, at least make the legs
> out of PT wood. Wood in contact with dirt and grass in your climate
> will rot in no time, it is designed to do just that. I would make the
> whole thing out of PT lumber and not worry at all about it. All wood,
> off the ground and built so it will not stay damp for long periods will
> last a long, long time. Where it cannot dry out, like in joints, and
> where it makes contact with other pieces will stay damp and will rot
> first. PT wood will not rot and stays nice. You need to stain it, or
> it will crack and discolor. Best to use solid wood stain. You will need
> to refinish every few years, but mainly just where the sun hits it.

Agree with using PT for ground contact and pretty much for any bracing
that you will not make normal skin contact with.

>
> My son built this picnic table when he was in HS, and it's been in Pgh
> weather ever since, about 15 years. It been refinished 2x and only the
> top parts, never flipped over to refinish. Takes about 15 minutes to
> rough sand and 20 minutes to repaint, but only if you leave it go long
> enough to need some sanding, which you will. You need to leave it out a
> year or two before staining, to insure it is dry when stained, or the
> stain will not hold up. It is fastened with galvanized bolts and deck
> screws.
>
> Here it is unfinished:
> http://jbstein.com/Photos/woodwork/DCP2_1327.jpg
>
> and 15 years later, finished:
> http://jbstein.com/Photos/Woodwork/P1030520.jpg

Did you get the wrong picture, this table is not the same as the one
referenced directly above. Top and seat supports are on the inside on
one and out side on the other. And the top and bottom material do not
seem to be the same thickness in both pictures.

[dadiOH]

"whit3rd" <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:49c4fd53-1c85-4d5c...@googlegroups.com...

Well, for sailboats, it depends upon how much time there is between changing
tack. If one is on a starboard tack for 24 hours and then changes to a port
tack, the starboard side that was up has dried out considerably; since it is
now down, it is going to leak considerably for a while. Ditto the reverse.
That's why there are bilge pumps :)

[DerbyDad03]

Isn't amazing what a little paint will do? Dang near changes the whole
appearance. ;-)

[John McCoy]

Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote in news:nmqrc7$a6l$1...@dont-email.me:

> If you own a Texas oil well, you might be better off using Teak, but use
> PT where anything is sitting on bare NY ground.

Going off on a tangent, but 20 years ago there was a big fuss
for people planting teak trees in Central America. Costa
Rica mostly. I wonder what happened with that. It always
came across as a bit of an investment scam - "send us your
money and you'll own this tree! And in 20 years we'll cut
it down and sell the wood, and you'll get 10x your money
back!".

John

[Leon]

I own three stars. LOL

[Jack]

On 7/21/2016 12:44 PM, Leon wrote:

>> Here it is unfinished:
>> http://jbstein.com/Photos/woodwork/DCP2_1327.jpg
>>
>> and 15 years later, finished:
>> http://jbstein.com/Photos/Woodwork/P1030520.jpg
>
> Did you get the wrong picture, this table is not the same as the one
> referenced directly above. Top and seat supports are on the inside on
> one and out side on the other. And the top and bottom material do not
> seem to be the same thickness in both pictures.

Good eye. My son built two of these, one for a high school project that
he donated to an OldTimers nursing home, and then one he made for me. I
had to look back and forth to see they were a bit different. Both were
built around the same time, from the same plans he got off the internet.

I wouldn't worry about sitting on PT furniture, and really wouldn't
worry about it after it was coated with paint. I wouldn't eat the stuff,
but even bugs and mold isn't dumb enough to eat that crap. The biggest
downside (imo) to PT is cutting and sanding it. I hate working with it,
but wouldn't worry much unless I did it for a living, day in and day out.

[Dr. Deb]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 5:55:17 PM UTC-5, Kirk Wasson wrote:
> I build outdoor furniture out of cypress. It is getting more expensive each year because no one is growing it. I have chairs that have been in the weather for 20 years with nothing more than some polyurethane every couple of years. The last great cypress I bought was from Wilson Lumber in Memphis.
> The neat thing is after all these years, when the sun heats up my Adirondack chair I can smell the fresh lumber.

But the problem with cypress is that the to get the weather resistance its noted for, you need to get old growth, or at least heart wood from the newer stuff. The sapwood is almost as weather sensitive as pine.

[k...@attt.bizz]

I own some prime real estate on the Moon. I'll strike it rich before
you will. ;-)

[Brewster]

On 7/20/16 7:45 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:

>
> Make it out of Trex?
>

+1

If you plan on painting (or any finish that will hide any color
variations in the wood or other wood-like features, Trex is wonderful
stuff. Looks just like painted wood.


-BR

[Jimbo]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 12:00:01 PM UTC-4, Greg Guarino wrote:
> We've had thoughts about finally revamping our back yard. Life has
> recently thrown us a curve that may delay that (again), but I'll ask
> anyway.
>
> I'm thinking primarily of an outdoor dining table; simple, farmhouse
> style. I'd like it to be over-large, but I'd also like to be able to put
> it in a shed for the winter, so I'd probably build two normal-sized
> tables instead, with removable legs.
>
> So firstly, is this a stupid idea? Will I simply be building myself a
> neverending project; one that will need refinishing every year or two?
> We live in NY City; a pretty "versatile" climate with high humidity in
> the summer, and of course, rain. The table would sit on concrete. We'd
> keep some sort of fabric awning/umbrella over it, but nothing that would
> truly keep it from the elements, (except in the winter).
>
> If it's not stupid, what sort of wood should I build it from? Are there
> perhaps plastic "cups" that are designed to protect the bottoms of (say)
> 4x4s where they would touch the ground? If I were to use metal fasteners
> (for the legs, plus possibly pocket screws elsewhere), would those be
> problematic over time?

I have a wooden patio set that I bought at the end of season many years ago. It has weathered to a nice grey finish. It sits on a concrete patio during the summer, where it is exposed to the sun and wind. I put it inside for the winter months here in Toronto (usually October to April). It has lasted longer and looks better than any of my neighbours plastic or aluminum/glass sets. I have often considered refinishing it in oil but have never done so knowing that if I do it once, I will have to keep doing it.