2 applications of stain?

[Greg Guarino]

My project continues at a glacial pace. I've been so busy that I have
only had time to add a few more specimens to the Guarino Museum of Test
Pieces. The rest of the work is stuck in mid-sanding.

Before I ask, I'll admonish myself to save time:

"Don't use stain! Choose wood whose color you like, then use my
foolproof 12-step process for a beautiful finish!"

The project consists of a solid red oak frame with ply shelves. I'd like
a darker color. I will again admonish myself, in the interest of saving
time:

"Minwax sucks. Don't use it"

I have a fair sampling of the Minwax rainbow at home. None of them
really do it for me, at least not for this project. I just got a couple
of colors of Rustoleum Stains. I made test pieces. Not bad, although
neither was remotely the color on the sample (allegedly on oak as well)
displayed at the store.

"Did you read the directions?"

I read the directions. Apply liberally, wait 1-2 minutes, wipe off
excess. Done.

There wasn't nearly as much color change as advertised. Both colors were
not bad actually, but I have just applied a second coat over parts of
the test pieces. I'll add that the colors still do not match the
samples, but they are a little darker.

"Use gel stain!"
"Don't use gel stain!"

I haven't tried that method yet, and I may. But for now I am wondering,
if I achieve a color I like with more than one application of stain
(presumably "oil" - it says it's "flammable" and mentions "petroleum
distillates"), will I find problems later? Improper adhesion of the
topcoats for instance? (I'm considering Watco).

"Geez, you don't know anything at all about finishing".

Guilty as charged.

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[dadiOH]

"Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lpbj6g$c8q$1...@dont-email.me

> I haven't tried that method yet, and I may. But for now I am wondering,
> if I achieve a color I like with more than one application of stain
> (presumably "oil" - it says it's "flammable" and mentions "petroleum
> distillates"), will I find problems later? Improper adhesion of the
> topcoats for instance? (I'm considering Watco).

I wouldn't worry about oil over oil. Yes Watco has a soupcon of varnish,
still wouldn't worry about it.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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[Swingman]

On 7/6/2014 8:33 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I read the directions. Apply liberally, wait 1-2 minutes, wipe off
> excess. Done.
>
> There wasn't nearly as much color change as advertised. Both colors were
> not bad actually, but I have just applied a second coat over parts of
> the test pieces. I'll add that the colors still do not match the
> samples, but they are a little darker.

If it makes you feel any better, most every time I've stained for the
past forty years, I've struggled with the above.

AAMOF, I'm doing it as we speak, except that I have to please a client,
which amplifies the 'staining angst' a million fold, and I'm certainly
not pleasing myself with the way it is going ... and whether the client
will be pleased, or not, awaits the top coat application:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopBuiltInWallCabinets2014?noredirect=1

Not to mention, imagine being colorblind at the same time. ;)

In short, I would be perfectly happy to never have to apply a finish, of
any type, to a project. That ain't gonna happen, but I can dream.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
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[joelj...@aol.com]

> My project continues at a glacial pace. I've been so busy that I have
>
> only had time to add a few more specimens to the Guarino Museum of Test
>
> Pieces. The rest of the work is stuck in mid-sanding.

Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfCYMdrP8rM

https://charlesneilwoodworking.3dcartstores.com/Finishing-Products_c_11.html

Charles Neil is a wood finishing mastermind.

It makes staining and dying a breeze. I have no financial interest in ... blah, blah ....

[no...@none.com]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 10:01:37 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>If it makes you feel any better, most every time I've stained for the

>not pleasing myself with the way it is going ... and whether the client
>will be pleased, or not, awaits the top coat application:
>https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopBuiltInWallCabinets2014?noredirect=1

Well, at least with Bayer the supervisor on the job, you know your
tools aren't going to walk away. :)

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 09:33:05 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

> "Geez, you don't know anything at all about finishing".
>
> Guilty as charged.

I think we've all felt that way from time to time. But I've had better
luck with dye than with anything else:

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/transtint-liquid-dyes/

If you just want a very light tint, mix with alcohol or shellac. Any
darker, go with water. It's hard to even out the color with something
that dries as fast as alcohol. And go lighter than you think you want.

Yeah, they're expensive, but each little bottle makes at least a half
gallon once diluted.

[Greg Guarino]

On 7/6/2014 10:13 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:lpbj6g$c8q$1...@dont-email.me
>
>> I haven't tried that method yet, and I may. But for now I am wondering,
>> if I achieve a color I like with more than one application of stain
>> (presumably "oil" - it says it's "flammable" and mentions "petroleum
>> distillates"), will I find problems later? Improper adhesion of the
>> topcoats for instance? (I'm considering Watco).
>
> I wouldn't worry about oil over oil. Yes Watco has a soupcon of
> varnish, still wouldn't worry about it.
>

Thanks. Does that mean a second application of stain is a sensible idea
if it produces a color I like? And you mention that Watco has only a
little varnish; if I were to use poly over the stain (or wiping poly,
more likely), would that have adhesion problems?

[Greg Guarino]

On 7/6/2014 11:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/6/2014 8:33 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> I read the directions. Apply liberally, wait 1-2 minutes, wipe off
>> excess. Done.
>>
>> There wasn't nearly as much color change as advertised. Both colors were
>> not bad actually, but I have just applied a second coat over parts of
>> the test pieces. I'll add that the colors still do not match the
>> samples, but they are a little darker.
>
> If it makes you feel any better, most every time I've stained for the
> past forty years, I've struggled with the above.

It doesn't. It suggests that I'll still be blundering around at it for
years after I'm dead. If "colorblind" is an impediment, "dead" can only
be worse.

>
> AAMOF, I'm doing it as we speak, except that I have to please a client,
> which amplifies the 'staining angst' a million fold,

That /is/ an extra burden. I'm not even being a perfectionist about a
preconceived color; I'm just looking for something darker, in a wide
range really, with tones that I like.

and I'm certainly
> not pleasing myself with the way it is going ... and whether the client
> will be pleased, or not, awaits the top coat application:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopBuiltInWallCabinets2014?noredirect=1

I looked at the pictures. You went to a Sherwin Williams dealer and had
them match a sample, I gather? How does that work with stain? I mean
paint (eventually) covers what's under it completely; how do they match
something that is so affected by the wood?

That looks like a pretty dark color. Was it one "coat"? On birch, right?
Does birch "take" stain more readily than oak? I'm guessing yes.

> Not to mention, imagine being colorblind at the same time. ;)
>
> In short, I would be perfectly happy to never have to apply a finish, of
> any type, to a project. That ain't gonna happen, but I can dream.

I tend to agree. Shaping and assembling the parts is great fun;
finishing (so far) is not.

[Leon]

On 7/6/2014 8:33 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

> My project continues at a glacial pace. I've been so busy that I have
> only had time to add a few more specimens to the Guarino Museum of Test
> Pieces. The rest of the work is stuck in mid-sanding.
>
> Before I ask, I'll admonish myself to save time:
>
> "Don't use stain! Choose wood whose color you like, then use my
> foolproof 12-step process for a beautiful finish!"

There you go. I most often try to avoid using stain and try to sway my
customers towards the natural look. Stain hides the character of the
wood. I describe stain as see through paint.

>
> The project consists of a solid red oak frame with ply shelves. I'd like
> a darker color. I will again admonish myself, in the interest of saving
> time:
>
> "Minwax sucks. Don't use it"

While some get good results, I think they spray it, I have never ever
had any luck applying by hand, whether it be rag or brush.

>
> I have a fair sampling of the Minwax rainbow at home. None of them
> really do it for me, at least not for this project. I just got a couple
> of colors of Rustoleum Stains. I made test pieces. Not bad, although
> neither was remotely the color on the sample (allegedly on oak as well)
> displayed at the store.
>
> "Did you read the directions?"
>
> I read the directions. Apply liberally, wait 1-2 minutes, wipe off
> excess. Done.

Practice on scraps. It seems that instructions are vague and in many
cases to be used as a starting point depending on you relative humidity
and temperature. So on some projects you have to so a small section at
a time to be able to wipe off while waiting 1~2 minutes.

>
> There wasn't nearly as much color change as advertised. Both colors were
> not bad actually, but I have just applied a second coat over parts of
> the test pieces. I'll add that the colors still do not match the
> samples, but they are a little darker.
>
> "Use gel stain!"
> "Don't use gel stain!"
>
> I haven't tried that method yet, and I may. But for now I am wondering,
> if I achieve a color I like with more than one application of stain
> (presumably "oil" - it says it's "flammable" and mentions "petroleum
> distillates"), will I find problems later? Improper adhesion of the
> topcoats for instance? (I'm considering Watco).

I have had real good luck with Bartely gel stains, they will stain dark
if you choose a dark color. Now having said that Bartely was bought by
Lawrance McFadden finishes, they went out of business in 2010 and
apparently the recipe was sold to Seagrave Coatings. The stains did
have a touch of varnish in them so adding layers and or adding a gel
varnish was not an issue. Varnishes applied with a rag over the Bartely
stain did show a touch of color coming off on the rag but nothing to
screw up the stain application.

In the Houston area I have to IMMEDIATELY wipe off the excess otherwise
the rag sticks to the finish.

[dadiOH]

"Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:lpe8da$esv$1...@dont-email.me

> On 7/6/2014 10:13 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> > "Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:lpbj6g$c8q$1...@dont-email.me
> >
> > > I haven't tried that method yet, and I may. But for now I am
> > > wondering, if I achieve a color I like with more than one
> > > application
> > > of stain (presumably "oil" - it says it's "flammable" and mentions
> > > "petroleum distillates"), will I find problems later? Improper
> > > adhesion of the topcoats for instance? (I'm considering Watco).
> >
> > I wouldn't worry about oil over oil. Yes Watco has a soupcon of
> > varnish, still wouldn't worry about it.
> >
> Thanks. Does that mean a second application of stain is a sensible idea
> if it produces a color I like?

Gotta remember that stain such as you are using isn't a dye...it is finely
ground pigments in a vehicle. It colors things mostly because the pigment
catches in imperfections in the wood, be they wood grain, sanding
scratches, whatever. IOW, there is very little penetratin into the wood.
Seems to me that the only time you get much penetration is when you want
to sand it off :)

The pigment particles stay put because they are locked into the oil when
it dries. I can't see that additional coats of stain would cause a
problem as long as you don't let it build up a thick film...don't try to
use it as a thin, transparent paint IOW.

> And you mention that Watco has only a
> little varnish; if I were to use poly over the stain (or wiping poly,
> more likely), would that have adhesion problems?

No. It is done every day. After all, stain isn't supposed to be a
finish, it is just to color the wood before finishing.

[dadiOH]

"Greg Guarino" <gdgu...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:lpe9cf$pag$1...@dont-email.me

> That /is/ an extra burden. I'm not even being a perfectionist about a
> preconceived color; I'm just looking for something darker, in a wide
> range really, with tones that I like.

What color did you start with? If you like the color you could always add
a bit of black universal tint to it to make it darker. Or maybe burnt
umber...don't know if that is available as a universal tint but it is
easily obtainable at any artist supply store, ground in oil. I used to
use a mix of the two plus some turps and thinner as a wash on color
photographic portraits in order to tie the colors together and tone them
down.

Keep in mind that any color you wind up with will look different when it
has a finish on it.

Look at any samples you do by themselves, don't compare them to others; if
you do, you will always want something in between the two or with the one
characteristic from one, another from another.

I farmed out my color printing to pro labs...except for one time. I spent
hours printing dozens of prints...this is pretty good, needs +10 cyan;
whoops, too much cyan, add .05 magents. Etc, etc. The difference between
the first I made and the last was astounding and not one was what I would
consider satisfactory.

And contrary to your current frame of mind, finishing is the best part of
woodworking...that's when all the preceding work comes together and you
have something beautiful; it's when the wood comes alive. Of course, I
don't stain...:)