Rocky 30 Trim Router - 3/8" Collet?

[DerbyDad03]

My Rocky 30 Trim Router kit arrived yesterday. MLCS SKU 9060. It's not
yet viewable on their website, but the SKU can be ordered on the Quick
order page.

It's my first trim router, so I don't have anything to compare it to,
but it seems like a nice little unit.

I wish it came with some sort of carrying case, but I guess I'll have
to pick one up at HF or HD. There's no LED or micro-adjust, but at
under $100 for the router and plunge base, I'm not complaining.

I did a quick round-over on a short piece of 1 x 6 and it was nice to
be able to use one hand for the router and one hand to hold the board.
The plunge base seems to work, but I haven't really tested it yet.

Here's my question:

In with the accessories was a 3/8" collet. As shown in the link below,
the 3/8" collet (on the left) is just a conical sleeve with a single slot.
The more standard 1/4" four-slot collet is on the right.

https://imgur.com/Y36uHMM

I was not aware that router bits came with 3/8" shanks, so I called
MLCS. When I asked about the 3/8" collet, the tech support guy said:

"Yeah, they throw that in at the factory. You won't get much use out of
it since there aren't too many 3/8" shank routers bits available."

Is that true? Obviously the larger the shank the better, so I wouldn't
mind springing for a couple of 3/8" shank bits if they were available. On
the other hand, the fact that the 3/8" collet is much more "basic" than
a standard four-slot router collet, it almost seems like it's not meant
to be used full time.

Your thoughts and opinions are most welcome.

[Unknown]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:47edb6f6-32ff-4d45...@googlegroups.com:

I haven't seen a 3/8" router bit in stores and haven't looked elsewhere.
There's two very usable standard sizes, why throw in a third?

You'll be able to find 3/8" tooling by looking at end mills, but they're
usually just straight. There's some with round ends, "clipped" corners
and a couple different configurations. An end mill will cut wood just
fine, I've done it.

Puckdropper

[DerbyDad03]

Well, the only reason I can think of is the standard "the bigger the
shank, the lesser the vibration." Since the Rocky 30 seems to be able
to handle the 3/8" shank, it would be nice if bits were actually
available.

>
> You'll be able to find 3/8" tooling by looking at end mills, but they're
> usually just straight. There's some with round ends, "clipped" corners
> and a couple different configurations. An end mill will cut wood just
> fine, I've done it.
>
> Puckdropper

Thanks for the info on end mills. I assume that they are more expensive than
1/4" shank router bits. Probably not worth the extra cost for my needs.

[Leon]

The bigger bushings do not need to flex as much as the smaller bushings.
More cuts in the bushing allow for more adjustment.
I would not be concerned with the single cut bushing.
FWIW my 1/2" bushing/collet has 3 cuts, my 1/4" has 4.

[DerbyDad03]

Thanks for that info.

Do you know of anyone that sells 3/8" shank router bits in standard
profiles, such as round-overs, chamfers, etc?

Remember, you started me down this Rocky Road, so you're on the hook
to help me get the most out of this tool. ;-)

[Leon]

For the most part .25 and .5 covers the normal needs. To go a bit
farther, LeighJigs used to offer 8 mm shank bits, I have a few 8mm DT
bits. These bits were better when you really needed more than a 1/4"
shank bit and when a 1/2" shank bit and bushing would not fit between
closely spaced fingers on the jig.

>
> You'll be able to find 3/8" tooling by looking at end mills, but they're
> usually just straight. There's some with round ends, "clipped" corners
> and a couple different configurations. An end mill will cut wood just
> fine, I've done it.

Heck yeah an end mill will cut wood. If you remember Steve Knight, I
used to cut mouth blocks for his hand planes, I made a few thousand.
I used carbide tip bits to plunge twin 3/8" wide by 2" long through
slots through 1/4" thick Ipe. After about 200 slots the bit was pretty
much toast. I finally ended up using a 4 flute end mill bit and
probably cut 1200~1400 slots with it and it is still pretty darn sharp.





>
> Puckdropper
>

[Leon]

Actually end mill bits are pretty inexpensive by comparison, they are
HHS. As I pointed out to Puckdropper they outlasted carbide bits many
times over.

[John McCoy]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:47edb6f6-32ff-4d45...@googlegroups.com:

> I was not aware that router bits came with 3/8" shanks, so I called
> MLCS. When I asked about the 3/8" collet, the tech support guy said:

The only 3/8th shank router bit I've ever seen was a
3/8th straight bit. It was probably solid carbide,
I can't think of another reason not to use either a
1/4 or 1/2 shank.

John

[Leon]

McMaster Carr has some and here, although I have never bought from the
company listed below.

http://tools.toolstoday.com/search?w=3%2F8%22%20shank%20router%20bits

[woodchucker]

So here's the thing, many metal working milling bits are 3/8"
and WAY cheaper than woodworking bits.

So you can use them. They have 2 flute, 4 flute, some rare 3 flute.
ball end, flat, etc...
So I would say it is and can be useful.
It's whether you will venture to metal working suppliers.. OBTW, the
prices to Metal workers, is much less than the price to WW for the same
bits.

--
Jeff

[DerbyDad03]

Almost all straight bits at ToolsToday. None of the basic profiles.

I may try some end mills just to see if I can tell any difference.

Thanks!

[Swingman]

On 7/22/2016 12:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> Thanks for the info on end mills. I assume that they are more expensive than
> 1/4" shank router bits. Probably not worth the extra cost for my needs.

Perhaps, if it's a trim router and you probably won't be doing plunge
cuts with it.

However, I use end mills exclusively as bits for my Multi-Router for
cutting mortises'.

The advantage is the lower lengths available with end mills, as opposed
to router "bits".

It often a challenge to find a router bit long enough to cut to the
mortise depth you need when chucked safely in the router, and you must
also go through the thickness of the "table" of a router "jig" to cut
the mortise.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Swingman]

On 7/22/2016 5:00 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/22/2016 12:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> The advantage is the LONGER lengths available with end mills, as opposed
> to router "bits". ^^^^^^

Damned stick keys ...

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 6:00:23 PM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/22/2016 12:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the info on end mills. I assume that they are more expensive than
> > 1/4" shank router bits. Probably not worth the extra cost for my needs.
>
> Perhaps, if it's a trim router and you probably won't be doing plunge
> cuts with it.
>
> However, I use end mills exclusively as bits for my Multi-Router for
> cutting mortises'.
>
> The advantage is the lower lengths available with end mills, as opposed
> to router "bits".
>
> It often a challenge to find a router bit long enough to cut to the
> mortise depth you need when chucked safely in the router, and you must
> also go through the thickness of the "table" of a router "jig" to cut
> the mortise.
>

That's a very good point re: the length.

I just bought the trim router with the plunge base. I don't have a
plunge base for my full size PC router.

The trim router with the plunge base is going to be perfect for some of
the stuff I need to do for the bed project, such as the mortises for the
rail hardware and the brackets for the slats.

It'll also be a lot easier to do all the round-overs than with the PC.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On 22 Jul 2016 17:22:42 GMT, Puckdropper

You mean like 8mm?

>
>You'll be able to find 3/8" tooling by looking at end mills, but they're
>usually just straight. There's some with round ends, "clipped" corners
>and a couple different configurations. An end mill will cut wood just
>fine, I've done it.

Sounds like it would be worthwhile just for that.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:00:11 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 7/22/2016 12:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the info on end mills. I assume that they are more expensive than
>> 1/4" shank router bits. Probably not worth the extra cost for my needs.
>
>Perhaps, if it's a trim router and you probably won't be doing plunge
>cuts with it.
>
>However, I use end mills exclusively as bits for my Multi-Router for
>cutting mortises'.
>
>The advantage is the lower lengths available with end mills, as opposed
>to router "bits".
>
>It often a challenge to find a router bit long enough to cut to the
>mortise depth you need when chucked safely in the router, and you must
>also go through the thickness of the "table" of a router "jig" to cut
>the mortise.

Mortise Pal sold some really nice, long, solid carbide up-spiral bits.
Unfortunately, they seem to be no more.

[Unknown]

k...@attt.bizz wrote in news:52p5pbp439n64u56f...@4ax.com:

> On 22 Jul 2016 17:22:42 GMT, Puckdropper
> <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>
>>
>>I haven't seen a 3/8" router bit in stores and haven't looked
>>elsewhere. There's two very usable standard sizes, why throw in a
>>third?
>
> You mean like 8mm?

Yes! Just because it's metric doesn't mean the darn thing has to have no
decimal point. (I realize 8mm is awful close to 5/16".) Make it 6.35mm
and be done with it.

>>
>>You'll be able to find 3/8" tooling by looking at end mills, but
>>they're usually just straight. There's some with round ends,
>>"clipped" corners and a couple different configurations. An end mill
>>will cut wood just fine, I've done it.
>
> Sounds like it would be worthwhile just for that.
>
>

Oh! I just remembered something important: Not all end mills can be
plunged into the work. Those that can are called "center cutting". Be
sure to look closely at the end before buying a whole bunch of them.
Generally, 2 flute EMs will be center cutting.

Puckdropper

[Swingman]

On 7/22/2016 9:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> That's a very good point re: the length.

I order end mills online from Travers Tool.

This is the 3/8" one I use the most for mortise work, both in my plunge
router and Multi-Router. I also keep the same style in 1/4" on hand:

http://www.travers.com/4-flute-micrograin-long-length-solid-carbide-single-end-mill/p/20-501-170/

If you have any questions about use (which end mill/configuration works
best for a particular application/material) their customer service has
always been very knowledgeable when I've called.

[John McCoy]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:25e01954-1e18-4969...@googlegroups.com:

> The trim router with the plunge base is going to be perfect for some
> of the stuff I need to do for the bed project, such as the mortises
> for the rail hardware and the brackets for the slats.

For really shallow mortises, like to inlay hardware, it
should be fine. If it's like most trim routers, tho, it's
not going to have the oats to do a deeper mortise.

John

[Sonny]

On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 8:03:01 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/22/2016 9:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > That's a very good point re: the length.
>
> I order end mills online from Travers Tool.
>
> This is the 3/8" one I use the most for mortise work, both in my plunge
> router and Multi-Router. I also keep the same style in 1/4" on hand:
>
> http://www.travers.com/4-flute-micrograin-long-length-solid-carbide-single-end-mill/p/20-501-170/
>
> If you have any questions about use (which end mill/configuration works
> best for a particular application/material) their customer service has
> always been very knowledgeable when I've called.
>

Additionally, to Karl's offer....

Some years ago, while vacationing in NC, I bought a cache (I stopped counting at 400 bits) of assorted bits, from one of the auction sites. Among them were 3/8" shank bits router bits and I suppose CNC router bits.

If you'd like to try some, I can send you 1 or 2 dozen. The black ones are clockwise spin and the orange ones are counter-clockwise spin. Their tips are either flat or pointed. There are some straight bits and spiral ones. None seem to be very long, mostly short, and there are no profile bits. About the only time I've used these 3/8" bits are for hogging out a hole, of some sort, using a hand held drill, as I don't have a 3/8" collet for my routers. There are several 3/8" collets in the cache, but they are probably for a CNC router. I wouldn't try to install them in any hand held router.

In the 4th pic, the green coated group, of 5, are 1/2" shank dovetail bits. Their cut is about 3/8" wide, also. I have lots of them, so I can throw in some of these, as well.

Anyway, if you'd like to check these out, try them, email me your address to cedarsonny at aye oh el dot com and I'll send some.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/?

Sonny

[Brewster]

On 7/22/16 9:03 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> too many 3/8" shank routers bits available."
>
> Is that true? Obviously the larger the shank the better, so I wouldn't
> mind springing for a couple of 3/8" shank bits if they were available. On
> the other hand, the fact that the 3/8" collet is much more "basic" than
> a standard four-slot router collet, it almost seems like it's not meant
> to be used full time.
>
> Your thoughts and opinions are most welcome.
>

I bought a 3/8 collet for my big Milwaukee in my router table for the
express purpose of using 3/8" milling bits. I've broken enough $$$ 1/2"
shank, 3/8" spiral cut router bits to appreciate inexpensive and damn
sharp HSS milling bits.

-BR

[DerbyDad03]

Thanks! I may take you up on that offer. Let me play with the router a bit
and see how I do with what I have.

[DerbyDad03]

On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
> On 7/22/2016 9:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > That's a very good point re: the length.
>
> I order end mills online from Travers Tool.
>
> This is the 3/8" one I use the most for mortise work, both in my plunge
> router and Multi-Router. I also keep the same style in 1/4" on hand:
>
> http://www.travers.com/4-flute-micrograin-long-length-solid-carbide-single-end-mill/p/20-501-170/
>
> If you have any questions about use (which end mill/configuration works
> best for a particular application/material) their customer service has
> always been very knowledgeable when I've called.
>

Thanks for the link!

[k...@attt.bizz]

On 23 Jul 2016 06:45:00 GMT, Puckdropper

<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>k...@attt.bizz wrote in news:52p5pbp439n64u56f...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 22 Jul 2016 17:22:42 GMT, Puckdropper
>> <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I haven't seen a 3/8" router bit in stores and haven't looked
>>>elsewhere. There's two very usable standard sizes, why throw in a
>>>third?
>>
>> You mean like 8mm?
>
>Yes! Just because it's metric doesn't mean the darn thing has to have no
>decimal point. (I realize 8mm is awful close to 5/16".) Make it 6.35mm
>and be done with it.

Sorry, I meant to answer "why a third" with, "like 8mm?" 3/8" is a
forth. ;-)

>
>>>
>>>You'll be able to find 3/8" tooling by looking at end mills, but
>>>they're usually just straight. There's some with round ends,
>>>"clipped" corners and a couple different configurations. An end mill
>>>will cut wood just fine, I've done it.
>>
>> Sounds like it would be worthwhile just for that.
>>
>>
>
>Oh! I just remembered something important: Not all end mills can be
>plunged into the work. Those that can are called "center cutting". Be
>sure to look closely at the end before buying a whole bunch of them.
>Generally, 2 flute EMs will be center cutting.
>

Wouldn't there have to be some sort of cutter over the end?

[Unknown]

k...@attt.bizz wrote in news:bc58pbp5m7lh2mmka...@4ax.com:

*snip&trim*

>>
>>Oh! I just remembered something important: Not all end mills can be
>>plunged into the work. Those that can are called "center cutting".
>>Be sure to look closely at the end before buying a whole bunch of
>>them. Generally, 2 flute EMs will be center cutting.
>>
> Wouldn't there have to be some sort of cutter over the end?
>

The ones I've seen that weren't center cutting (and this by far does not
represent any meaningful percentage of the ones out there) were sharp on
the ends to the point where the 4 flutes came together. At that point, it
wasn't sharp. Those EMs could be ramped down into the work, but couldn't
be plunged.

Puckdropper

[Leon]

I have used a flat bottom end mill, 4 flute, and only used it in a
plunge situation. I had it mounted in the router table router and I
plynged the wood down on top of the spinning bit. When it penetrated
the top side of the Ipe a small hot disk came flying out.

I often wished I had one that was pointed on the end to make penetration
a bit easier.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On 24 Jul 2016 02:01:38 GMT, Puckdropper

I was wondering how those worked. IOW, they don't plunge (they aren't
a drill).

[John McCoy]

k...@attt.bizz wrote in news:6eb8pbdsivdnfqtdc...@4ax.com:

Yeah, that's the difference between "center cutting" and
"non-center cutting". The non-center cutting are designed
to cut on the side of the mill - the workpiece is moved
under the cutter from the side, as if you were cutting a
groove or rabbet. The center cutting type are designed to
cut on the side or end, so they can be plunged into the
work and then the workpiece moved (e.g. for a stopped
groove).

If I remember correctly (unfortunately my machinist friend
passed away earlier this year, so I can't ask him) the non-
end cutting mills clear chips better, so can cut faster in
a production setting. Which is why both kinds exist.

John

[woodchucker]

A four flute always has a cutting edge in contact with the material, not
necessarily with a 2 flute. So a chattering cut, may require a four
flute to calm the cut down.

--
Jeff