Animals in Heaven?
Chang Sun
Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations before
I commit to one.
I have a strange question. In your faith, do you believe that animals
go to heaven? Or only people?
Please share your person views on this according to your Christian
denomination.
-Chang
Don
God breathed the breath of life into animals and they became a living
soul. They share in the promises God gave to Moses and will spend
eternity with us.
Rev. Dr. D*
One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it.
-- Bertrand Russell
John W
I do not get the impression from scripture that there will be animals
in heaven; yet nothing in the Bible says there will not. And we DO
have numerous scriptures to resolve, like the lion lays down with the
lamb, and there is no moe spilling of blood.
Are you aware yet that there will be a "New Heaven" and a "New,
Glorified, Perfect Earth."?
There may not be animals in heaven, but at LEAST they will be on the
New Earth.
I am an animal lover myself. So I understand your concern. The Bible
ALSO cautions us to be kind to our animals.
God bless,
John W
iconoclast
"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
> Hello. I am a former Buddhist. I have recently found my home in the
> Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations before
> I commit to one.
First find a home in Christ.
Don't worry about which denomination or animals.
Matthames
Unfortunatly I cannot answer it well enough to give you an answer because of
the lack of it in the scriptures. Animals are used through out the
scriptures as a metaphorical statement. Like for instance Isaiah 40:31 (But
they that wait upon the lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up
with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk,
and not faint). There is only one animal cursed by God. That is the snake.
As animals with the exception of the snake haven't eaten from the tree of
life they are not under God's wrath. Animals have no knowledge of sin. They
can't tell the right from wrong. So therefore they would be accepted by God.
Man on the other hand has taken from the tree of life and has knowledge of
sin. This means that Men will have to face judgement from God.
I am glad you are coming to the christian faith. I pray that your faith may
grow in strength. I must point out before you start worrying about this
denominational stuff is to grow in your faith first and study your doctrine.
Go on what the Holy Spirit tells you is right. Remember to test the spirits
1 John 4:1-6. The Holy spirit has helped me in this way.
God bless,
Matt
"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
leushino
> This question reminds me of something that kids bring up in sunday school.
> Unfortunatly I cannot answer it well enough to give you an answer because of
> the lack of it in the scriptures. Animals are used through out the
> scriptures as a metaphorical statement. Like for instance Isaiah 40:31 (But
> they that wait upon the lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up
> with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk,
> and not faint). There is only one animal cursed by God. That is the snake.
> As animals with the exception of the snake haven't eaten from the tree of
> life they are not under God's wrath. Animals have no knowledge of sin. They
> can't tell the right from wrong. So therefore they would be accepted by God.
> Man on the other hand has taken from the tree of life and has knowledge of
> sin. This means that Men will have to face judgement from God.
>
> I am glad you are coming to the christian faith. I pray that your faith may
> grow in strength. I must point out before you start worrying about this
> denominational stuff is to grow in your faith first and study your doctrine.
> Go on what the Holy Spirit tells you is right. Remember to test the spirits
> 1 John 4:1-6. The Holy spirit has helped me in this way.
> God bless,
> Matt
>
An interesting answer, Matt, and I'm not about to disagree but I do
question one point. You say that because animals have not eaten of the
tree of life (I think you have your trees mixed up here, Matt), they do
not have the knowledge of sin and therefore are completely accepted by
God, whereas men have eaten of the tree, have such knowledge and
therefore must face the judgment.
I wonder how you draw such conclusions, given the fact that the
scriptures do not really say this. When God created man He created him
in His image. He did NOT create animals in His image. This expression
means, that man and NOT animals, being in the "image" of God, has the
freedom to choose... to make ethical decisions. Man freely chose to eat
of the tree and knowledge of good and evil, the result of which brought
about his fall. His eyes were opened, so to speak, but even prior to
this event, he held a position that animals did not hold... being in
God's image.
Rob
>
>"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
>news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
>> Hello. I am a former Buddhist. I have recently found my home in the
>> Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations before
>> I commit to one.
>
>First find a home in Christ.
>Don't worry about which denomination or animals.
Amen.
Rob
FBC
"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
Great Question.
I honestly do not believe that the Bible answers that question directly, and
like many minor issues there is not one thing you must believe as a
Christian. Of course on major issues we should have unity, things like the
resurrection, inspiration of Scripture and the Trinity.
I was discussing the matter with my kids this week and my basic thought is
this. We humans are made in the image of God, and animals are not.
Therefore I assume that they are not eternal and do not have a spiritual
nature.
So I do not think that my childhood dog, (Patches) will be in heaven when I
get there. Nor do I think he will spend eternity with me here on earth when
the New Heaven and New Earth come to be here.
Yet I suspect that animals will exist in heaven. I love animals, birds,
bugs and all of that, so heaven wouldn't seem like heaven without them. But
I think that if they are there with us they will be 'new' animals not the
ones that died on earth. And then an interesting point, I believe they
could be new as in new varieties, after all God is able. And as a final
note I believe they will be harmless.
Pastor Chip
leushino
> Being a Baptist means nothing about my belief that our beloved pets
> WILL be in heaven.
> I believe it will be so because of the wonderful companionship our
> pets give us. When they pass on, we grieve for them, almost as much as
> we do for humans who pass on if we love our pets....... anyone who is
> not an animal-lover is, in my books, a hateful person. I cannot see
> how anyone could NOT love a huggable, friendly pet.
>
> Yes indeed-- I firmly believe ALL our darling pets will be there in
> Heaven with us.
> They might not have been created 'in God's image', but they ARE still
> one of God's creatures.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>JESUS is the ROCK<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I have to say that I always find
fundamentalist Protestants a bit hypocritical. You always demand chapter
and verse for everything theological but in this instance (and there
are others) you turn around and say "I firmly believe ALL our darling
pets will be there..." And what is your chapter and verse to support
this belief? ;-)
FBC
"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
Oh and one more thing I meant to say.
Welcome to Christianity.
Be sure to always make your relationship to Christ, that is your
Christianity, more important than your denomination.
Don't avoid or shun denomination, but don't elevate it to the point where it
displaces the Lord Jesus Christ.
Most Christians know how to define the major things worth fighting for and
the minor issues we should just peaceably disagree about.
PC
Skil-Phil
Chan...@WongFaye.com says...
>
> Please share your person views on this according to your Christian
> denomination.
But
According to the woodworking denomination if it's a cat it has no chance
of heaven. A push stick is it's destiny. Rabbits also end up as push
sticks. Dogs are normally to big, except those little yappers.
BTW I have 2 dogs, had a cat which went with ex and a had a very loving
rabbit which got eaten by a mongoose, so no anti animal stuff here.
--
Phillip Hansen
Skil-Phil Solutions
take off 'boots' to reply
John W
wrote:
>
>"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
>news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
>> Hello. I am a former Buddhist. I have recently found my home in the
>> Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations before
>> I commit to one.
>
>First find a home in Christ.
>Don't worry about which denomination or animals.
>
Oh, I think which denomination is VERY important. While I'd not rile
up over choosing between Christian Baptists, Christian Methodists, or
Christian Lutherans,
Mormons call themselves, Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses also do;
Christian Scientists call themselves Christian, as do Roman Catholics,
Pentecostals, and Adventists. All are predominantly NOT Christian. The
title unfortunately DOES matter.
God bless,
John W
John W
The difference between a Christian Scientist, a Mormon, and a Baptist
(ALL three call themselves "christian") DOES matter.
God bless,
John W
John W
wrote:
Talking about hypocrisy! While I admit your complaint applied in the
specific may be valid in this case, to say
I always find
>fundamentalist Protestants a bit hypocritical. You always demand chapter
> and verse for everything theological but in this instance (and there
>are others) you turn around and say "I firmly believe ALL our darling
>pets will be there..."
The one thing you can depend on fundamentalist christians to do is
that if given 50 topics, we'll have 50 opinions.
To say that we "all" fell this way" or that we ALL "act the other way"
is the PEAK of hypocrisy!
If YOU do not act totally predictably every day, every moment of YOUR
life, do not accuse others of that!
God bless,
John W
John W
<adre...@rya-online.net> wrote:
>This question reminds me of something that kids bring up in sunday school.
>Unfortunatly I cannot answer it well enough to give you an answer because of
>the lack of it in the scriptures. Animals are used through out the
>scriptures as a metaphorical statement. Like for instance Isaiah 40:31 (But
>they that wait upon the lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up
>with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk,
>and not faint). There is only one animal cursed by God. That is the snake.
>As animals with the exception of the snake haven't eaten from the tree of
>life they are not under God's wrath. Animals have no knowledge of sin. They
>can't tell the right from wrong. So therefore they would be accepted by God.
>Man on the other hand has taken from the tree of life and has knowledge of
>sin. This means that Men will have to face judgement from God.
>
>I am glad you are coming to the christian faith. I pray that your faith may
>grow in strength. I must point out before you start worrying about this
>denominational stuff is to grow in your faith first and study your doctrine.
>Go on what the Holy Spirit tells you is right. Remember to test the spirits
>1 John 4:1-6. The Holy spirit has helped me in this way.
>God bless,
>Matt
The whole point about "testing the spirits" is this: You MUST know
what your New Testament says. So IMMEDIATELY, PRAYERFULLY, read the
Gospel of John. This gives you an IMMEDIATE sense of His character.
Then when some scoffer says, "He knocked some kid down who got too
close." all you have to say in response is, "I'm reading the Bible. I
don't remember that part. I'll watch for it."
At any rate, how you test the spirits is this: Are they saying things
to me that are contrary to the literal, revealed text? (The Bible).
And as you study, you'll begin to notice that the attacks come against
the literal view.
That tells you Satan is only concerned that you NOT accept the literal
view,and it is therefore one you want to focus on.
THEN, you can begin to concern yourself with settling down with a
church. I've always found that I want the best possible scholarship
from the pulpit.
Look for Baptist or Non-Denominational with a pastor whose name is
followed by letters such as Ph D, Th D, D. Min, Min Div, LL D, M S,
etc.
If my pastor can't get up and preach from the Hebrew Old Testament and
the Greek New Testament, I need to find a church.
God bless,
John W
John W
wrote:
We are told man's destination, and why. We are not told the
destination of the animals, but it IS suggested that they will at
LEAST be in the New Earth.
God bless,
John W
Ben Mitts
Hi Chang! Welcome! Praise The Lord on your entrance
into The Christian Faith.
Needless to say, you have much to learn. Their are
many who can and will help you to learn what you
need to know. Be careful tho' there are many here
who only seek to destroy. Surf awhile and you will
begin to see whom you can trust and rely on for help
with what you need to know! You have my permission
to E-Mail me with your questions anytime you choose!
Now to your question: Will/are their animals in Heaven?
The Word of God, let me say up front, is not about an-
imals per se. It is about mankind and Gods dealings
with man.
The only animals mentioned in The Word that we are ac-
quainted with are horses. The WOrd does not say animals
go to heaven when they die so we dont know what happens
to them.
In regards to considering a denomination to join with is
not as important as to what the various denominations
stand for! Look for a church that teaches Jesus Christ
Crucified. Is strong in Bible teaching and demonstrates
that they have strong care groups set up to help new mem-
bers/visitore understand and see what, and whom it is they
hold to in Faith! Also find out whether they demand its
congregation to know The Word- this is most important!
These churches are there. Just dont be in a hurry to join.
Visit as many as you can. If you seek Gods help by prayer
in this matter He will lead you to the one He wants you
in! You will know when He has put you in the right con-
gregation because he will tell you so! Dont not join any
church unless you have sought the help of God! Keep in
mind God will and does use men to help in this matter. But
test their intent to see in who they are persuaded in in
their belief. Seek Born Again believers for as much help
as possible
Let me know how you make out with this. I can help point
you in the right direction. But Pray about it first! Use
the many Believers out here for help also.
God Bless you and welcome!
--
Peace!
Sincerely,
Ben mitts
From The Word of God;
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever
believes may in Him have eternal life." Similarly, God
so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but
Have eternal life. Another: God did not send the Son
into the world to judge the world, but that the world
should be saved through Him. He spoke elsewhere: I am
the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me
shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and
believes in Me shall never die. Believe you this?
Karen Nakamura
I think there is a special spot in heaven for a good plane that's seen
better days.
Karen
In article <328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com>, Chang Sun
++
nos...@noway.period wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 08:48:16 -0700, leushino <leus...@hotmail.com>
> spake thusly in these here little old news 'froups:
>
> ~nos...@noway.period wrote:
> ~> Being a Baptist means nothing about my belief that our beloved pets
> ~> WILL be in heaven.
> ~> I believe it will be so because of the wonderful companionship our
> ~> pets give us. When they pass on, we grieve for them, almost as much as
> ~> we do for humans who pass on if we love our pets....... anyone who is
> ~> not an animal-lover is, in my books, a hateful person. I cannot see
> ~> how anyone could NOT love a huggable, friendly pet.
> ~>
> ~> Yes indeed-- I firmly believe ALL our darling pets will be there in
> ~> Heaven with us.
> ~> They might not have been created 'in God's image', but they ARE still
> ~> one of God's creatures.
> ~>
> ~> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~>
> ~>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>JESUS is the ROCK<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> ~>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ~> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~
> ~I'm not disagreeing with you, but I have to say that I always find
> ~fundamentalist Protestants a bit hypocritical. You always demand chapter
> ~ and verse for everything theological but in this instance (and there
> ~are others) you turn around and say "I firmly believe ALL our darling
> ~pets will be there..." And what is your chapter and verse to support
> ~this belief? ;-)
>
> I was not arguing any point, but merely ANSWERING A QUESTION.
> In this case, no Bible chapter and verse was necessary.
> Have a nice day.
Hieron
Once you are dead, the Scriptures say you "sleep in the dust of the earth".
Believers are looking forward to the Resurrection, not to going to heaven.
Justin Martir inthe 2nd century warned against those who proclaim that
after dying their soul went to heaven. "Don't believe they are Christian",
he said.
The repentant thief on the cross asks Jesus for the Resurrection. Paul tells
the believers in 1Thess.4:13- not to grieve over the loved ones who died,
for they will meet them in the Resurrection.
The heaven-hell stuff was adopted from Plato's philosophy just as many other
doctrine from pagan religions (virgin birth, trinity, stc).
Christianity has a sad history. In the first century it was an extension of
Judaism in the Jewish world, then it was extended to the Roman Empire. They
were strictly unitarian in their beliefs (meaning belief in one God who is
one and not three or more). There the Gentile believers began to add to the
teaching the virgin birth (that was not believed by the Ebionites, who were
formed by the Jewish believers from Jerusalem), then later they began to
claim personal pre-existence to Jesus, and they ended up with the Trinity
and heaven-hell. What you see today is a twisted image of the original.
Faith in God is simple, it doesn't require podium performance, jokes,
dancing, speaking in tongues and other fake miracles. Faith in God is
simply believing His promises concerning the coming Kingdom on earth with
the appearance of King Messiah. We believe his name is Jesus, a man born as
a descendant of King David, who proclaimed the Kingdom, healed and taught
righteousness, who was crucified and whom God raised and exalted above the
angels of heaven. This is the man whom God Almighty appointed to carry out
His judgment against mankind in the appropriate time, and therefore, God
now commands everyone everywhere to repent.
www.focusonthekingdom.org
www.restorationmovement.org
Note, they accept the virgin birth, but apart from that they are fine.
Hieron
solarman
My bulldog KNOWS he did wrong when he dumps in the shop, kitchen floor, etc.
He is generally a well trained dog, but sometimes he does make a mistake.
Those of us who have animals will surely agree with me on this. I would hate
to think that God would not allow animals in Heaven. I'll even bet he has a
few of them himself...
"Matthames" <adre...@rya-online.net> wrote in message
news:bbl2bc$akit9$1...@ID-191334.news.dfncis.de...
iconoclast
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3EDE9E85...@erols.com...
> Did anyone consider how it can be heaven without all the loveable animals?
>
Have you considered that your loving wife or husband will no longer be that
in heaven and that it is NOT earth.
Don
>I'm not disagreeing with you, but I have to say that I always find
>fundamentalist Protestants a bit hypocritical. You always demand chapter
> and verse for everything theological but in this instance (and there
>are others) you turn around and say "I firmly believe ALL our darling
>pets will be there..." And what is your chapter and verse to support
>this belief? ;-)
GENESIS 1:20 --- "Then God said, 'Let the waters teem with swarms of
LIVING SOULS, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of
the heavens. '"
GENESIS 1:21 --- "And God created the great sea monsters, and every
LIVING SOUL that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their
kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was
good."
GENESIS 1:24 --- "Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth LIVING
SOULS after their kind: cattle and creeping things (here are the "bugs
and bulls" ) and beasts of the earth after their kind;' and it was
so."
GENESIS 1:30 --- "...and to every beast of the earth and to every bird
of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has a SOUL
(life/being), I have given every green plant for food."
GENESIS 2:19 --- "And out of the ground the Lord God formed every
beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the
man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each
LIVING SOUL, that was its name."
GENESIS 7:21-23 --- "And all flesh that moved on the earth perished,
birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon
the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on dry land, all IN WHOSE
NOSTRILS WAS THE BREATH OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE, died.
GENESIS 9:15-16 --- "...and I will remember My covenant, which is
between Me and you and every LIVING SOUL of all flesh; and never again
shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is
in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting
covenant between God and every LIVING SOUL of all flesh that is on the
earth."
EZEKIEL 47:9 --- "And it will come about that every LIVING SOUL which
swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will
be very many fish ...."
The Bible makes it very clear that this "living soul" is not something
unique to man, but is rather spoken of with reference to animals also
(and, in fact, is used MORE often with reference to the other living
creatures than with reference to man). In each of the above passages,
by-the-way, it is the SAME WORDING in the original as is found in
Genesis 2:7.
In a nutshell, as I said in my first post on this, God breathed the
breath of life and man, and animals became a living soul. Since God's
promises to Moses were also for "every LIVING SOUL of all flesh that
is on the earth," it seems obvious that the answer is "yes," animals
WILL be with us for eternity.
All dogs DO go to Heaven.
Don
>Being a Baptist means nothing about my belief that our beloved pets
>WILL be in heaven.
>I believe it will be so because of the wonderful companionship our
>pets give us. When they pass on, we grieve for them, almost as much as
>we do for humans who pass on if we love our pets....... anyone who is
>not an animal-lover is, in my books, a hateful person. I cannot see
>how anyone could NOT love a huggable, friendly pet.
Dog? Yes.
Proof? http://www.calldon.com/shadow.htm
Twenty dogs? Yes.
Cat? Not until Jesus returns.
If I even THINK about a cat, I begin to break-out, itchy skin, red,
watery eyes, swollen bronchial tubes, asthma attack, etc. In fact, I
have it so bad that I received a college scholarship because of my
allergies!!!
No cats anywhere around me EVER!!!
NEVER!!!
Tiger
news:jjitdvsccf3ho90o4...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 11:35:21 -0400, nos...@noway.period wrote:
>
>>Being a Baptist means nothing about my belief that our beloved
>>pets WILL be in heaven.
>>I believe it will be so because of the wonderful companionship our
>>pets give us. When they pass on, we grieve for them, almost as
>>much as we do for humans who pass on if we love our pets.......
>>anyone who is not an animal-lover is, in my books, a hateful
>>person. I cannot see how anyone could NOT love a huggable,
>>friendly pet.
>
> Dog? Yes.
>
> Proof? http://www.calldon.com/shadow.htm
>
> Twenty dogs? Yes.
>
> Cat? Not until Jesus returns.
>
> If I even THINK about a cat, I begin to break-out, itchy skin,
> red, watery eyes, swollen bronchial tubes, asthma attack, etc. In
> fact, I have it so bad that I received a college scholarship
> because of my allergies!!!
>
> No cats anywhere around me EVER!!!
>
> NEVER!!!
>
What are you implying?
;-)
--
Tiger
"The facts notwithstanding, it is easier to go to sleep at night
believing that our perspective on the universe is the stable one."
- Barbara Brown Taylor
Lew Hodgett
Since this seems to be cross posted to the religious world, it will save
some time.
Why don't all you fish fucks take a hike?
Put $10 in an envelope and send it to me.
You'll fell better, and I'll have a few bucks.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
Don
<john_wea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Look for Baptist or Non-Denominational with a pastor whose name is
>followed by letters such as Ph D, Th D, D. Min, Min Div, LL D, M S,
>etc.
WHY??? Having such designations after one's name IN NO WAY guarantees
good preaching or teaching. It only proves that the minister probably
does NOT suffer from attention deficit disorder.
I was youth pastor at a church while the pastor was working on his
D.Min. After he received it, one of the kids said to me, "I thought
when Bro. XXX got his doctor's degree, his preaching would be better.
But it isn't!"
How true!
>If my pastor can't get up and preach from the Hebrew Old Testament and
>the Greek New Testament, I need to find a church.
Is that why you don't go to church now?
astron
"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
> Hello. I am a former Buddhist. I have recently found my home in the
> Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations before
> I commit to one.
>
> I have a strange question. In your faith, do you believe that animals
> go to heaven? Or only people?
>
> Please share your person views on this according to your Christian
> denomination.
>
> -Chang
You know that is a very interesting question .
How do the Orthodox think about animals in heaven ?
I would think that all animals are without sin , therefore all of nature is
in heaven .
Can anyone else elaborate please ?
iconoclast
"Don" <calldo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2kgtdvstlrlvmq7t4...@4ax.com...
Even my ex girl freind?
John W
wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:25:26 -0700, John W
><john_wea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Look for Baptist or Non-Denominational with a pastor whose name is
>>followed by letters such as Ph D, Th D, D. Min, Min Div, LL D, M S,
>>etc.
>
>WHY???
Why NOT? It's a good place to start if the person who presumes to
teach you/us knows the Bible and the original languages at a minimum.
If you want an unqualified pastor, that explains a LOT about YOUR lack
of Christianity.
John W
Having such designations after one's name IN NO WAY guarantees
>good preaching or teaching.
NOTHING in life is a guarantee. But it's a safe bet.
I'm surprised that you would be so down on an educated clergy. Must
mean yours knows little/nothing.
God bless,
John W
It only proves that the minister probably
>does NOT suffer from attention deficit disorder.
Ridiculous.
iconoclast
<nos...@noway.period> wrote in message
news:1dhudvgh4vgdrncj8u68bqtap15ui0cvv3@1docnet...
> On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 04:40:10 GMT, Don <calldo...@earthlink.net>
> spake thusly in these here little old news 'froups:
>
> ~
> ~breath of life and man, and animals became a living soul. Since God's
> ~promises to Moses were also for "every LIVING SOUL of all flesh that
> ~is on the earth," it seems obvious that the answer is "yes," animals
> ~WILL be with us for eternity.
> ~
> ~All dogs DO go to Heaven.
>
>
> I agree too, Don. I'm positive we WILL see all our beloved pets in
> Heaven.
>
My wife too?
Don
<john_wea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 05:09:49 GMT, Don <calldo...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:25:26 -0700, John W
>><john_wea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Look for Baptist or Non-Denominational with a pastor whose name is
>>>followed by letters such as Ph D, Th D, D. Min, Min Div, LL D, M S,
>>>etc.
>>
>>WHY???
>
>Why NOT?
Because having such degree has been demonstrated to have NO RELATION
to the ability to preach or teach. It simply means that the person
has finished a course of work.
> It's a good place to start if the person who presumes to
>teach you/us knows the Bible and the original languages at a minimum.
"Knowing the Bible and the original languages" has nothing to do with
being able to EFFECTIVELY share that information with an audience,
congregating or class.
>If you want an unqualified pastor, that explains a LOT about YOUR lack
>of Christianity.
I said nothing about wanting "an unqualified pastor." Now it is YOU
who are creating lies, John.
> Having such designations after one's name IN NO WAY guarantees
>>good preaching or teaching.
>
>NOTHING in life is a guarantee. But it's a safe bet.
WRONG AGAIN! Some of the most mediocre and poor preachers/teachers
were those with the higher degrees.
>I'm surprised that you would be so down on an educated clergy.
Stop LYING, John. I inferred no such thing! Stop lying.
> It only proves that the minister probably
>>does NOT suffer from attention deficit disorder.
>
>Ridiculous.
Not ridiculous at all. In fact, my statement is VERY true regarding
academic work. Proves that you know nothing about Attention Deficit
Disorder!
iconoclast
<nos...@noway.period> wrote in message
news:nhvudv075ktvrjs28k92dokmaohtaat4eq@1docnet...
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2003 09:08:16 -0700, "iconoclast" <Icono...@space.net>
> spake thusly in these here little old news 'froups:
>
> >
> ><nos...@noway.period> wrote in message
> >news:1dhudvgh4vgdrncj8u68bqtap15ui0cvv3@1docnet...
> >> On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 04:40:10 GMT, Don <calldo...@earthlink.net>
> >> spake thusly in these here little old news 'froups:
> >>
> >> ~
> >> ~In a nutshell, as I said in my first post on this, God breathed
> the
> >> ~breath of life and man, and animals became a living soul. Since
> God's
> >> ~promises to Moses were also for "every LIVING SOUL of all flesh
> that
> >> ~is on the earth," it seems obvious that the answer is "yes,"
> animals
> >> ~WILL be with us for eternity.
> >> ~
> >> ~All dogs DO go to Heaven.
> >>
> >>
> >> I agree too, Don. I'm positive we WILL see all our beloved pets in
> >> Heaven.
> >>
> >
> >My wife too?
> >
> reason you do not desire to see her, then I'm sure the Lord will grant
> your desire if you ask in HIS name.......... Don't forget though------
> God works in mysterious ways. And if it is His will that you DO see
> her, then you will............
>
I asked for a million dollars "In His name".
Never happened.
I asked for a Million dollars and would give 90% to His cause.
Nothing happened.
All this talk of heaven and no one has a clue what heaven is.
Paul
"iconoclast" <Icono...@space.net> wrote in message
news:zzTDa.145858$eJ2.78947@fed1read07...
Heaven is wanting nothing for yourself. It is the death of that thing
called self.
Tiger
news:6b07ea3b8495778d...@free.teranews.com:
>> All this talk of heaven and no one has a clue what heaven is.
>
> Heaven is wanting nothing for yourself. It is the death of that
> thing called self.
>
Heaven is a never-ending bowl of homemade peach ice cream that doesn't
have any calories shared by me and Charlize Theron on our deserted
island...which we must populate :) Oh...and there are 25 Olson guitars
there with strings that never wear out.
iconoclast
"Paul" <pa...@tooley.com> wrote in message
news:6b07ea3b8495778d...@free.teranews.com...
Nice analogy and maybe quite accurate.
Nothing about what heaven IS.
iconoclast
Yep, absolutely no such thing as ADD.
>
> Rev. Dr. D*
>
>
I have had two favorite Pastors.
1. No degree except to grind through a seminary without even a bachelors.
He was / is a great preacher of the truth.
2. A nationally recognized teacher with many degrees. We could sit eyeball
to eyeball and have great discussions. In Small groups, he was great. He
was a great counselor. He was not a great preacher.
Don
wrote:
Some have suggested that A.D.D. should more accurately be called
Inconsistent Attention Syndrome or something more descriptive like
that, since many with "Inattentive ADD" have the ability to "hyper"
focus on certain things.
>I have had two favorite Pastors.
>
>1. No degree except to grind through a seminary without even a bachelors.
>He was / is a great preacher of the truth.
>2. A nationally recognized teacher with many degrees. We could sit eyeball
>to eyeball and have great discussions. In Small groups, he was great. He
>was a great counselor. He was not a great preacher.
I would love to be in one of those small groups. I bet he was not
threatened by serious questions either, was he?
Don
<john_wea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>If you want an unqualified pastor, that explains a LOT about YOUR lack
>of Christianity.
>
Don said:
> Having such designations after one's name IN NO WAY guarantees
>>good preaching or teaching.
John answered:
>NOTHING in life is a guarantee. But it's a safe bet.
>I'm surprised that you would be so down on an educated clergy. Must
>mean yours knows little/nothing.
One of the greatest expository evangelists I have ever known was a guy
who never graduated from college. However he had been taught the
skills of using helps such as Greek word studies. He preached at the
Southern Baptist Convention when he was around 20 years old. He
filled-in for James Robison at a colosseum crusade that same year when
James became sick one night.
Baptist preachers have long prided themselves on being accurate.
However they do not have the ability to make practical application of
the scriptures and motivate the listeners to actually DO something
with what they know. This guy was accurate AND effective. Many
preachers are just accurate.
iconoclast
Reality
If you are different than I want you to be, you need medication.
>
> >I have had two favorite Pastors.
> >
> >1. No degree except to grind through a seminary without even a
bachelors.
> >He was / is a great preacher of the truth.
> >2. A nationally recognized teacher with many degrees. We could sit
eyeball
> >to eyeball and have great discussions. In Small groups, he was great.
He
> >was a great counselor. He was not a great preacher.
>
> I would love to be in one of those small groups. I bet he was not
> threatened by serious questions either, was he?
Not in the least.
He had some of his own.
Don
wrote:
>"Don" <calldo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> Some have suggested that A.D.D. should more accurately be called
>> Inconsistent Attention Syndrome or something more descriptive like
>> that, since many with "Inattentive ADD" have the ability to "hyper"
>> focus on certain things.
>
>Reality
>If you are different than I want you to be, you need medication.
AMEN! Now go take your pill.
(I already took mine)
>> >I have had two favorite Pastors.
>> >
>> >1. No degree except to grind through a seminary without even a
>bachelors.
>> >He was / is a great preacher of the truth.
>> >2. A nationally recognized teacher with many degrees. We could sit
>eyeball
>> >to eyeball and have great discussions. In Small groups, he was great.
>He
>> >was a great counselor. He was not a great preacher.
>>
>> I would love to be in one of those small groups. I bet he was not
>> threatened by serious questions either, was he?
>
>Not in the least.
>He had some of his own.
...and he was honest enough to admit it! Most pew-sitters are not
that honest in public.
Chris Johnson
FBC wrote:
>
>
> So I do not think that my childhood dog, (Patches) will be in heaven when I
> get there. Nor do I think he will spend eternity with me here on earth when
> the New Heaven and New Earth come to be here.
>
>
If my dogs aren't there waiting for me, then I'll know I've died and
gone to hell. Heaven would include my dogs or it wouldn't be heaven.
Hell would be a suitable place to go if you were to abandon your dog
in order to get into heaven. Such a person would be unworthy of
heaven.
If I die and get to a place that's full of holy rollers, I would know
that I had gone to hell, too, because such people are not compatible
with my low-key approach to religion.
For me, hell would be a REVIVAL.
CJ
Paul
<snip>
> Heaven is wanting nothing for yourself. It is the death of that thing
> > called self.
>
> Nice analogy and maybe quite accurate.
> Nothing about what heaven IS.
As far as we humans are concerned in the time and space we exist in heaven
remains a concept no matter how many religious people tell you it isn't.
Rusty
The only problem with this hypothesis is that SOUL doesn't appear as you use
it in the Hebrew manuscript. The Bible actually doesn't say or imply that
animals are living souls just as are humans.
In Christ,
~Rusty
"A text taken out of context is a pretext."
Don
>> In a nutshell, as I said in my first post on this, God breathed the
>> breath of life and man, and animals became a living soul. Since God's
>> promises to Moses were also for "every LIVING SOUL of all flesh that
>> is on the earth," it seems obvious that the answer is "yes," animals
>> WILL be with us for eternity.
>
>The only problem with this hypothesis is that SOUL doesn't appear as you use
>it in the Hebrew manuscript. The Bible actually doesn't say or imply that
>animals are living souls just as are humans.
Don't confuse soul with spirit.
There are several passages above. All contain the word "Nephesh"
which is often translated appetite, body, creature, dead, desire,
heart, himself, life, man, mind, misc, person, soul, themselves, will,
yourselves. What specifically do you find in error?
FYI, it is Strong's Number: 5315
Genesis2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living
being.
soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being,
desire, emotion, passion
that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner
being of man
living being
living being (with life in the blood)
the man himself, self, person or individual
seat of the appetites
seat of emotions and passions
==============
Rev. Dr. D*
stone
all turn to dust again.
Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward,
and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
{The spirit of man goes upward, to be judged by God according to the
words of the New Testament; after the judgement, if the man was a real
Christian he goes to heaven, and if he was not a real Christian he
goes down to hell.}
Animal spirits just go down to the Earth. What does that mean?
Read this online gospel tract about what happens to men after they
die:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp
Chan...@WongFaye.com (Chang Sun) wrote in message news:<328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com>...
Brian Ceccarelli
Rev 19:14 "The armies of heaven were following him [Jesus], riding on
white horses . . ."
The Bible also refers to the Messianic Age, when Jesus reigns as King on
earth. While earth is not "heaven", God does restore the original nature
of the animals:
Is 11:6: "The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down
with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little
child shall lead them. . . . . They will neither harm each other nor destroy
. . . . for the earth will be full with the knowledge of the Lord."
I believe that God likes animals; otherwise he would not have created
them to begin with. They, like us, are for His good pleasure. And with
that, it would be in God's nature to have animals in heaven. There are
probably more species there than there are on earth. And there is a good
chance that our old pets will show up. God makes a promise that "He will
wipe away every tear." There have a lot of tears shed over beloved pets.
In order to remove those tears, I think God will restore our pets to us.
It is well within his power to do so.
As for my denomination, I am just a Christian. Christ never wanted
denominations--denominations suggest division.
Brian
"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
Harro
No you didn't, or you would have got it. Or at least been told "not yet".
Asking "in Jesus' Name" is synonymous with being in God's will. Just as a
policeman can say "Stop in the name of the law". The policeman has no
authority when his demand is not in line with the edicts of the law.
Likewise your haughty request. Besides, you didn't really believe you'd get
it anyway.
Harro.
Harro
"John W" <john_wea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1v9sdv4bb5nkmh1js...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 06:54:43 -0700, "iconoclast" <Icono...@space.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
> >news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
> >> Hello. I am a former Buddhist. I have recently found my home in the
> >> Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations before
> >> I commit to one.
> >
> >Don't worry about which denomination or animals.
> >
> Oh, I think which denomination is VERY important. While I'd not rile
> up over choosing between Christian Baptists, Christian Methodists, or
> Christian Lutherans,
>
> Mormons call themselves, Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses also do;
> Christian Scientists call themselves Christian, as do Roman Catholics,
> Pentecostals, and Adventists. All are predominantly NOT Christian. The
> title unfortunately DOES matter.
Roman Catholics and Pentecostals? Care to elaborate?
Harro.
IHSRC
Al Green
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message
news:bdhbm2$iie$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au...
And why wouldn't you call our errant brothers and sisters of the Roman
Patriarchate "Christian"?
Al
CW
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message
news:bdhbm2$iie$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au...
>
thers...@worldnet.att.net
cults call themselves Christians when they don't even identify having
a personal relationship with One Who should be Lord and Savior of
their lives. JW referenced a few denominations:
>>"Oh, I think which denomination is VERY important. While I'd not
rile
> > up over choosing between Christian Baptists, Christian Methodists, or
> > Christian Lutherans..."
Any of these would definitely point you in the proper direction. And
yet, the Lord will let you know (once you've picked a church) if you
need to be feed more. God takes special care of babes in Christ. He
WILL let you know. He'll watch over you..not to worry. Get yourself a
bible and just read, read, read and pray, pray, pray. Oh, beware,
that there will some who will come along to try to distract you from
what the Lord has planned for you. Staying in prayer will help you be
a strong soldier for Christ.
In Christ Alone
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message news:<bdhbm2$iie$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au>...
Not-easily-duped
> Christian Scientists call themselves Christian, as do Roman Catholics,
> Pentecostals, and Adventists. All are predominantly NOT Christian. The
> title unfortunately DOES matter.
Who determines who is christian and who is not and why???
>
> God bless,
>
> John W
William R. Mosher
--
In IC XC,
Alban
<thers...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:65849233.03063...@posting.google.com...
Brian Ceccarelli
"Not-easily-duped" <Codeb...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:bbba7302.03063...@posting.google.com...
In the end, Christ does.
Here are some measuring rods.
1. "Christian" means "belonging to Christ." Does the one who claims to
be Christian say that "Christ is my master?"
2. Examine who the claimants view of "Christ." It is the "Christ" in
the Bible who says, "The only way to the Father is through me", "All
authority on heaven and on earth has been given to me.", "I and the Father
are one.", "If you seen me me, you seen the Father"? In the Mormon
world and the JW world, Jesus is one of many gods; and that if Mormon does X
things in life, he too will become a god like Jesus.
3. Defers matters of good and evil to God. If the person decides matters
of good and evil by any standard than God's, the person is eating from the
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil -- which was Adam and Eve's mistake
in the first place. And that is how they lost eternal life to begin with.
#3 is where the rubber meets the road.
Just FYI -- since you asked.
Brian
Harro
You have assurance of salvation if you:
1) Believe in the name of Jesus Christ.
2) Honour Jesus as the Lord of your life - obey His commands.
3) Love the Father & the Son rather than the world.
4) Habitually and persistently practice righteousness rather than sin.
5) Love your neighbour as yourself.
6) Are conscious of the Holy Spirit dwelling within you.
7) Strive to follow Jesus’ example.
8) Remain in the written word. The original apostolic message.
9) Have an earnest and unbending hope in Christ’s return.
10) All of 2-9 has happened since you did number 1.
"William R. Mosher" <woo...@charter.net> wrote in message news:vg1dhcb...@corp.supernews.com...
Ernie Jurick
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message
news:bdhbm2$iie$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au...
>
> > >
> > >news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
> > >> Hello. I am a former Buddhist. I have recently found my home in the
> > >> Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations
before
> > >> I commit to one.
Most churches will take any denomination. The collection plate is quite
ecumenical.
-- Ernie
John W
Sorry. I didn't see this earlier. My elaborations on Roman Catholics
and Pentecostal/Pretenders permeate this group. I am surprised you
haven't seen them.
Basically, Roman Catholic teaching deviates SIGNIFICANTLY from the
Bible; they go so far as to alter the very nature of God.
The Roman Catholics ignore or break too many rules. They put idols in
their "holy places" and they pray to humans, an act of worship,
wherein the Bible says only God is to be worshipped.
The Pentecostal/Pretenders chase miracles, not God. Their object is to
"be slain in the Spirit" and "speak in tongues" and they go to
extremes to experience these phenomenon, in spite of clear teaching
that the sign gifts ceased in the 1st century.
Neither POV can be justified scripturally, so we must look at Paul's
comments in Galatians 1 and consider both the Roman cult and
Pentecostal/Pretenderism "another gospel."
John W
>
>Harro.
>
John W
>I don't think he has the knowledge to elaborate.
And I have proved you wrong, now that I've seen the question to me.
John W
John W
Since the New Testament requirement for being a Christian is being
"born again", a teaching that Roman Catholics reject outright,
preferring the version where they're sprinkled on their heads when
they're infants, one can be a Roman Catholic in good standing and
NEVER encounter the Christ of the Gospel.
John W
John W
(thers...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>I agree it does matter. The word Christian means "Christ-like" and
>cults call themselves Christians when they don't even identify having
>a personal relationship with One Who should be Lord and Savior of
>their lives. JW referenced a few denominations:
>
>>>"Oh, I think which denomination is VERY important. While I'd not
>rile
>> > up over choosing between Christian Baptists, Christian Methodists, or
>> > Christian Lutherans..."
>
>Any of these would definitely point you in the proper direction. And
>yet, the Lord will let you know (once you've picked a church) if you
>need to be feed more. God takes special care of babes in Christ. He
>WILL let you know. He'll watch over you..not to worry. Get yourself a
>bible and just read, read, read and pray, pray, pray. Oh, beware,
>that there will some who will come along to try to distract you from
>what the Lord has planned for you. Staying in prayer will help you be
>a strong soldier for Christ.
>
I believe you've just re-stated what I said.
John W
John W
<woo...@charter.net> wrote:
>Being in the right church, the One Holy Catholic and
Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and God and Savior Jesus which
confesses the Orthodox Faith in its fullness is the only assurance of
being on the right path to salvation.
And which "church" is that? In Paul's day, there were roughly 40 or
50.
John W
John W
<har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote:
>
>Actually, 1 John was written so that believers may have an
assurance (1 John 5:13). There are quite a number of evidences from
which we can claim assurance. Where we spend a Sunday is not high on
the list. How we live is a lot more important to knowing whether our
faith is the saving kind.
>
>Here's something some may find useful:
>You have assurance of salvation if you:
>
>1) Believe in the name of Jesus Christ.
>
>2) Honour Jesus as the Lord of your life - obey His commands.
>
>3) Love the Father & the Son rather than the world.
>
>4) Habitually and persistently practice righteousness rather than sin.
>
>5) Love your neighbour as yourself.
>
>6) Are conscious of the Holy Spirit dwelling within you.
>
>7) Strive to follow Jesus' example.
>
>8) Remain in the written word. The original apostolic message.
>
>9) Have an earnest and unbending hope in Christ's return.
>
>10) All of 2-9 has happened since you did number 1.
Yet you left out fellowship, which Jesus emphasized by His constantly
being in contact with the disciples/apostles.
Interesting exclusion.
John W
Susan Williams
>On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:02:14 +1000, "Harro"
><har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John W" <john_wea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:1v9sdv4bb5nkmh1js...@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 06:54:43 -0700, "iconoclast" <Icono...@space.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >"Chang Sun" <Chan...@WongFaye.com> wrote in message
>>> >news:328d64b4.03060...@posting.google.com...
>>> >> Hello. I am a former Buddhist. I have recently found my home in the
>>> >> Christian faith. I am still considering different denominations before
>>> >> I commit to one.
>>> >
>>> >First find a home in Christ.
>>> >Don't worry about which denomination or animals.
>>> >
>>> Oh, I think which denomination is VERY important. While I'd not rile
>>> up over choosing between Christian Baptists, Christian Methodists, or
>>> Christian Lutherans,
>>>
>>> Mormons call themselves, Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses also do;
>>> Christian Scientists call themselves Christian, as do Roman Catholics,
>>> Pentecostals, and Adventists. All are predominantly NOT Christian. The
>>> title unfortunately DOES matter.
Sir,
Why listen to John Weatherly? Unfortunately he also has Vatican's
disease. We already exposed a man here who condemned all
non-Catholics to persecution and death, even telling us that
persecution is biblical! His name is Ted Seeber. John Weatherly is
so sure we are not Christian, he did not even notice what we had been
screaming about. Then later Teresita came in and told us that the
Christian martyrs in the work Foxe's Book of Martyrs were heretics and
deserved what they got. She also has the talent of accusing others of
hating people just because they disagree.
Here is where Ted Seeber did this:
When you see a bunch of people rambling away how they favor debate and
differing opinions but then Lord everything over to tell us about
FACTS and GOSPEL and how everyone is beyond debate, you know you have
found the unscrupulous servants of the Pope!
In His Grace,
Susan
>>Roman Catholics and Pentecostals? Care to elaborate?
>
>Sorry. I didn't see this earlier. My elaborations on Roman Catholics
>and Pentecostal/Pretenders permeate this group. I am surprised you
>haven't seen them.
>
>Basically, Roman Catholic teaching deviates SIGNIFICANTLY from the
>Bible; they go so far as to alter the very nature of God.
>
>The Roman Catholics ignore or break too many rules. They put idols in
>their "holy places" and they pray to humans, an act of worship,
>wherein the Bible says only God is to be worshipped.
>
>The Pentecostal/Pretenders chase miracles, not God. Their object is to
>"be slain in the Spirit" and "speak in tongues" and they go to
>extremes to experience these phenomenon, in spite of clear teaching
>that the sign gifts ceased in the 1st century.
>
>Neither POV can be justified scripturally, so we must look at Paul's
>comments in Galatians 1 and consider both the Roman cult and
>Pentecostal/Pretenderism "another gospel."
>
>John W
>>
>>Harro.
>>
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Susan Williams
Can people, like the servants of Rome, claim they favor variant
opinions and then make the Lording statements as John W and have
encountered the Gospel of Christ?
In His Grace,
Susan
Susan Williams
The Church of John W of Latter Day Saints!
Al
truths of the Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Al
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message news:<be3q8m$huf$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au>...
> --
Al
Actually, they were not separate and distinct, as are the 27,000+
denominations, sects, cults, etc., of protestantism. They were l;ike
parishes within a diocese. One Apostolic Church. We all know that the
word "catholic" to express the universality of the Apostolic Church
was first used around 95 a.d., and the concept of "One Holy Catholic
and Apostolic Church" was not expressly defined (officially) until the
first ecumenical council of Nicea in 325 a.d. Just the same what was
officially defined at Nicea was what had and contuinues to exist since
Pentecost.
So, to answer yhour question, the 50 or so "churches" that existed in
St. Paul's day was nothing more than parishes serving communities of
the one Christian church.
I'm surprised you don't know this. This is church history 101.
Al
Dirty Bob
out it's just a bunch of religion crap.
--
re. email: I have no equal.
"Al" <aggr...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:df4e6c04.03070...@posting.google.com...
Harro
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:02:14 +1000, "Harro"
> >>
> >> Christian Scientists call themselves Christian, as do Roman Catholics,
> >> Pentecostals, and Adventists. All are predominantly NOT Christian. The
> >> title unfortunately DOES matter.
> >
> >Roman Catholics and Pentecostals? Care to elaborate?
>
> Sorry. I didn't see this earlier. My elaborations on Roman Catholics
> and Pentecostal/Pretenders permeate this group. I am surprised you
> haven't seen them.
Been away a while.
> Basically, Roman Catholic teaching deviates SIGNIFICANTLY from the
> Bible; they go so far as to alter the very nature of God.
While I agree with deviations from Scripture point, what do you mean by the
"nature of God" one?
> The Roman Catholics ignore or break too many rules. They put idols in
> their "holy places" and they pray to humans, an act of worship,
> wherein the Bible says only God is to be worshipped.
As I'm sure many Catholics may have told you they are supposedly asking
saints to pray for them, just as I might ask you to pray for me. I don't see
it an act of worship any more than they do I suppose, but I agree with you
in that I don't think it's right.
> The Pentecostal/Pretenders chase miracles, not God.
I've never met any who didn't chase God actually. Your blanket statement is
inaccurate.
> Their object is to
> "be slain in the Spirit" and "speak in tongues" and they go to
> extremes to experience these phenomenon,
That's their objective?! I guess there's no accounting for us moving in
different circles. Does this emotionalism happen? Sure. But this is the
position of one ignorant of Pentecostal teaching.
> in spite of clear teaching
> that the sign gifts ceased in the 1st century.
There is no such 'cessation'! The perfect to come is not the Bible, but the
return of Jesus.
Harro.
Harro
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:01:38 +1000, "Harro"
> <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote:
>
> >
> >Actually, 1 John was written so that believers may have an
> assurance (1 John 5:13). There are quite a number of evidences from
> which we can claim assurance. Where we spend a Sunday is not high on
> the list. How we live is a lot more important to knowing whether our
> faith is the saving kind.
> >
> >Here's something some may find useful:
> >You have assurance of salvation if you:
> >
> >1) Believe in the name of Jesus Christ.
> >
> >2) Honour Jesus as the Lord of your life - obey His commands.
> >
> >3) Love the Father & the Son rather than the world.
> >
> >4) Habitually and persistently practice righteousness rather than
sin.
> >
> >5) Love your neighbour as yourself.
> >
> >6) Are conscious of the Holy Spirit dwelling within you.
> >
> >7) Strive to follow Jesus' example.
> >
> >8) Remain in the written word. The original apostolic message.
> >
> >9) Have an earnest and unbending hope in Christ's return.
> >
> >10) All of 2-9 has happened since you did number 1.
>
> Yet you left out fellowship, which Jesus emphasized by His constantly
> being in contact with the disciples/apostles.
Fellowship is hugely important in the life of the disciple. There are many
times in Scripture that this is reinforced.
> Interesting exclusion.
There are 100s of things "left out", but I don't see fellowship as a
prerequisite of salvation, hence it wasn't on the list.
Harro.
Harro
Yeah, good one (read "catholic" as "universal")
Harro.
"Al" <aggr...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:df4e6c04.03070...@posting.google.com...
Mike Horyn
You may believe that if you'd like but, history and the available evidence
dispute your claim. Their is no mention of an umbrella organization known
as the Catholic Church until the mid - 200's AD. No certainty that Peter
ever made it to Rome much less that he claimed what later Catholics
attribute to him. And, if he had declared himself the leader of the Lord's
Church in accord with apostolic succession, then John the Apostle would have
had to have been his successor. But, there's no record of any of this,
whatsoever.
Besides, there were dozens of other local churches, some that were mentioned
in Scripture, some in other records. No mention from them of some supreme
authority other than Christ Himself.
And, why did James speak for the assembled church at the first church
council (Acts 15) rather than pope Peter?
You Catholics ought to check your facts before venturing out from your own
newsgroup.
Mike
> I'm surprised you don't know this. This is church history 101.
>
> Al
Dittos, Al.
William R. Mosher
--
Alban
"Mike Horyn" <Mike...@insightbb.com> wrote in message news:PWFOa.11569$ye4.10870@sccrnsc01...
Cape Cod Bob
Suenell
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message news:be3q8m$huf$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au...
JCarew
"Mike Horyn" wrote in message
>"Al" wrote in message
>>John W wrote in message
>>>"William R. Mosher"
>>>Being in the right church, the One Holy Catholic and
>>>Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and God and
>>>Savior Jesus which confesses the Orthodox Faith in its
>>>fullness is the only assurance of being on the right
>>>path to salvation.
>>>And which "church" is that? In Paul's day, there were
>>>roughly 40 or 50.
>>Actually, they were not separate and distinct, as are the 27,000+
>>denominations, sects, cults, etc., of protestantism. They were l;ike
>>parishes within a diocese. One Apostolic Church. We all know that the
>>word "catholic" to express the universality of the Apostolic Church
>>was first used around 95 a.d., and the concept of "One Holy Catholic
>>and Apostolic Church" was not expressly defined (officially) until the
>>first ecumenical council of Nicea in 325 a.d. Just the same what was
>>officially defined at Nicea was what had and contuinues to exist since
>>Pentecost.
>>So, to answer yhour question, the 50 or so "churches" that existed in
>>St. Paul's day was nothing more than parishes serving communities of
>>the one Christian church.
>You may believe that if you'd like but, history and the available evidence
>dispute your claim. Their is no mention of an umbrella organization known
>as the Catholic Church until the mid - 200's AD
How about early 100 AD's
First use of the term "Catholic Church"
THE EPISTLE OF ST. IGNATIUS(d. 117) TO THE SMYRAEANS
>snip>
CHAPTER VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ
does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the
apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution
of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church
without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist,
which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to
whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear,
there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as,
wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the *Catholic Church*
It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or
to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve
of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that
is done may be secure and valid.
>snip<
See "http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm" for
the complete "Epistle of Ignatius"
St. Ignatius of Antioch(died 117), Feastday: October 17
St. Ignatius was a convert to the Faith and a disciple of
St. John the Evangelist. St. Chrysostom says that St. Peter
appointed him 3th Bishop of Antioch, which See he governed
for forty years. In the year 107, the Emperor came to
Antioch. St. Ignatius was seized and brought before him.
Having confessed Christ, he was condemned to be taken in
chains to Rome, there to be exposed to the wild beasts.
During this last journey he was welcomed by the faithful
of Smyrna, Troas, and other places along the way. His
remains were carried to Antioch, where they were interred.
At present they are venerated in Rome. During his long
journey he addressed seven epistles to various
congregations, in which, as a disciple of the Apostles,
he testifies to the dogmatic character of Apostolic
Christianity.
Jim Carew sfo
Mike Zuchick
God Bless,
"Harro" <har...@froggy.com.auspambuster> wrote in message news:be3q8m$huf$1...@au-nws-0001.flow.com.au...
Ken Johnsen
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C34583.446A10E0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="Windows-1252"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>You obviously have not read St. Ignatius of Antioch, who uses the term =
>Catholic in reference to the church founded by our Lord and God and =
Who is "you"?
--
The unworthy servant of God,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Al
> On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:00:58 -0500, "William R. Mosher" <woo...@charter.net>
> wrote:
>
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C34583.446A10E0
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="Windows-1252"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> >You obviously have not read St. Ignatius of Antioch, who uses the term =
> >Catholic in reference to the church founded by our Lord and God and =
>
> Who is "you"?
The word "catholic" was first used in a letter by an early Father of
the Church, a saint, about 93 A.D. Does anyone know who the saint was?
Al
Suenell
"Al" <aggr...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:df4e6c04.03070...@posting.google.com...
Mark & Juanita
Sue...@bellsouth.net says...
> Where's God's commandments, Al?
>
>
Do you believe that by following God's commandments you will earn
eternal life? If so, I suggest you read Romans very carefully. The law
serves a purpose, it shows sin and the need for a savior, but no one is
capable of doing what the law requires: keep it perfectly.
Phil
news:2d8d87b3fdf44551...@free.teranews.com:
> Do you believe that by following God's commandments you will earn
> eternal life? If so, I suggest you read Romans very carefully. The law
> serves a purpose, it shows sin and the need for a savior, but no one is
> capable of doing what the law requires: keep it perfectly.
>
>
Ahhhh, I do keep it perfectly, THE LAW that is, I'm baptist.
Alcohol has never touched my lips, and I have never, ever,
looked upon a woman, now where's my damb glasses.
Phil
Young Carpenter
--
Young Carpenter
"Save a Tree, Build Furniture"
"Phil" <phil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93CAFBB1CB50p...@63.223.5.101...
>
> Ahhhh, I do keep it perfectly, THE LAW that is, I'm baptist.
> Alcohol has never touched my lips, and I have never, ever,
> looked upon a woman, now where's my damb glasses.
>
> Phil
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Rob
>In article <oybWa.15847$5O3....@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com>,
>Sue...@bellsouth.net says...
>> Where's God's commandments, Al?
>>
>>
>
> Do you believe that by following God's commandments you will earn
>eternal life? If so, I suggest you read Romans very carefully. The law
>serves a purpose, it shows sin and the need for a savior,
>
>but no one is
>capable of doing what the law requires: keep it perfectly.
If you read Romans carefully enough, you'll realize no one is capable of doing
what grace requires either. So then how can a sinner be saved?
Rob
Mark & Juanita
says...
I'm not sure what your first question is asking here. Grace has no
requirements, it by definition is "undeserved love", you can't do
anything to receive something that is not deserved. As to your second
question, Romans answers that as well, the sinner is saved by Grace
(undeserved love) through faith (in our savior's atoning work) and that
faith is not something we do, it is a gift from God. So, to answer your
question (and drawing from Timothy and Peter as well), the faith we are
gifted with by the Holy Spirit comes to us through hearing the Word or
by baptism, it is this faith that provides salvation. Once in the
faith, the law becomes a curb and a guide for the Christian, it
identifies those things that we want to do in thanksgiving for our
salvation and the things that we want to avoid that will damage our
faith.
I know that I cannot do this topic justice, for additional
information, http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/doc-just-salv-01.html can serve
as a good starting point.
Teresita
>If you read Romans carefully enough, you'll realize no one is capable of doing
>what grace requires either. So then how can a sinner be saved?
Grace requires something? Isn't grace "gratis" which means "on the house" ?
You're saying grace is God offering free salvation for a million dollars.
--
Encyclopedia Teresita
http://web.newsguy.com/teresita
James
<br...@talusmusic.com> wrote:
>
>"Not-easily-duped" <Codeb...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
>news:bbba7302.03063...@posting.google.com...
>> > Christian Scientists call themselves Christian, as do Roman Catholics,
>> > Pentecostals, and Adventists. All are predominantly NOT Christian. The
>> > title unfortunately DOES matter.
>>
>>
>
>In the end, Christ does.
>
>Here are some measuring rods.
>
>1. "Christian" means "belonging to Christ." Does the one who claims to
>be Christian say that "Christ is my master?"
>
>
>2. Examine who the claimants view of "Christ." It is the "Christ" in
>the Bible who says, "The only way to the Father is through me"
Yes, a person can only get to God, by going through Jesus. Notice
there are two personages here: God and Jesus. (John 14:6) Thus Jesus
is not God.
> "All authority on heaven and on earth has been given to me.",
Thus he never had that authority until God gave it two him. Again,
Jesus cannot be God.
>"I and the Father are one.",
That's John 10:30. The real question is: One what? One substance? If
it means that, then God is a multiplicity instead of a Trinity. Why?
Turn to you Bible at John 17:21,22 and notice who is also “one” with
Christ and God. Thus that oneness is one in spirit. One in beliefs,
ect.
"If you seen me me, you seen the Father"?
Not the substance of the Father, for no one can see God (Father) and
live. Ex 33:20,
"But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and
live."" (NIV)
Many saw Jesus did they not? Jesus spoke of himself as “God's Son”,
not the Father. (John 10:36) Thus Jesus cannot be God.
>In the Mormon
>world and the JW world, Jesus is one of many gods;
Correct. 1 Cor 8:5b,6, “just as there are many “gods” and many
“lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all
things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things are, and we through him. (NWT)
Jesus was the first to be created directly by God. (Col 1:15) Adam was
second and Eve was third. All the rest of the creations came from God
and through Jesus.
James, John 17:17, www.jw.org
>and that if Mormon does X
>things in life, he too will become a god like Jesus.
>
>3. Defers matters of good and evil to God. If the person decides matters
>of good and evil by any standard than God's, the person is eating from the
>Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil -- which was Adam and Eve's mistake
>in the first place. And that is how they lost eternal life to begin with.
>#3 is where the rubber meets the road.
>
>Just FYI -- since you asked.
>
>
>Brian
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
graham
knuttle
and only believe what other say the organization represents. We see this
all of the time where supposedly intelligent people puppet what their
teacher tell them, with out taking the time to learn the facts for
themselves. We see the 10 year old making statements about thing they
have no idea what it actually is or what is actually happening. They
only know that their teachers said about it. Or the sixty year old who
is dead set that an organization is bad, yet never in their lives took
the time to get involved in the organization and learn exactly what the
organizations believes or has accomplished
An organization should be measured by their belief and actions. However
these organization are composed of humans, and like all human endeavors
they sometime make mistakes. Those mistakes may not be what they
expected and at the time it may appear that the organization is going
against its beliefs.
The success of an organization should be measured by the long term trend
in their actions. Those long term trend will be in the direction that
their beliefs propel them.
Religion is one of those organization. The teachers and professor tell
them religion is bad, they never become involved in the religion to see
what the church is doing. They don't see people being fed from the food
pantries in the church. If they are aware of the food pantries they
criticize the the church for not doing more, or contribute so the church
could do more.
They never realize that the good things happening in the community are
being done by people from that religion acting on their beliefs.
Don't criticize an organization until you take time to participate and
learn what the organization is actually doing. Learn about the
organization by walking in the organizations shoes and the shoes of the
members of that organization.
Keith Nuttle
>second and Eve was third. All the rest of the creations came from God
>and through Jesus.
>
>James, John 17:17, www.jw.org
against the stones."
-- Holy Bible, Psalm 137:9
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your
faces."
-- Holy Bible, Malachi 2:3
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be
surely put to death."
-- Holy Bible, Leviticus 20:9
"Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they
may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"
-- Holy Bible, 2 Kings 18:27
"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like
those of donkeys, and whose emission was like of horses."
-- Holy Bible, Ezekiel 23:20
"And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto,
thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast."
-- Holy Bible, Leviticus 20:16
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son...bring him out
unto the elders of his city...And all the men of his city shall
stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away
from among you!"
-- Holy Bible, Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the
man, but to be in silence."
-- Holy Bible, 1 Timothy 2:12-15
"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of
thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given
thee."
-- Holy Bible, Deuteronomy 28:53
--
Religion provides the means for the ignorant to declare with absolute
certainty that they know the unknowable.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
-John Adams, U.S. President
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in
it.
-John Adams, U.S. President
The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the
Christian religion.
-John Adams, U.S. President
Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition
and dogmatism cannot confine it.
-John Adams, U.S. President
But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been
blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the
most bloody religion that ever existed.
-John Adams, U.S. President
Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged
and triumphed for 1500 years.
-John Adams, U.S. President
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall
govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it
by fictitious miracles.
-John Adams, U.S. President
"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real
good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long
prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and
much less capable of pleasing the Deity."
-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does
not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its
professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I
apprehend, of its being a bad one.
-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
"Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is
in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that
the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and
to violate would be oppression."
-Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural, 1801.
Question with boldness even the existance of a god; because, if there be
one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator,
and diplomat
I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and
do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are
all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies. The Christian God is a being
of terrific character -- cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods, undated, referring to "our
particular superstition" Christianity
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme
Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable
of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-Thomas Jefferson, LETTER TO HIS NEPHEW, PETER CARR 1787
That sect had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific
character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, August 4, 1822, referring to
the god of the Jews under Moses
The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the
many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed
monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this
raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber
of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and
hypocrites.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew, Peter Carr
In our Richmond there is much fanaticism, but chiefly among the women. They
have their night meetings and prayer parties, where, attended by their
priests, and sometimes by a hen-pecked husband, they pour forth the
effusions of their love to Jesus, in terms as amatory and carnal, as their
modesty would permit them to use a mere earthly lover.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, November 2, 1822
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of
Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have
not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of
coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To
support roguery and error all over the earth.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed
their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these
liberties are of the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I
reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever; that
considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the
wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events; that it
may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no
attribute which can take side with us in such a contest."
-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator,
and diplomat
[Jefferson was pondering the impact of slavery on morality of the nation and
execration of statesmen who permitted such liberty of one half the citizens
who could trample the rights of the others. Slavery is sanctioned in the
faith-based, theistic religions and holy books. It takes a long time to rid
civilization of such convictions held by believers who are thoroughly
brainwashed.]
The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give
assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President
There is quite a body of quotes from his early law partners, his family and
of course political opponents. It's hard to assemble from all the mush. I do
remember this well: William Herndon, a law partner, wrote that Lincoln
showed him a paper he had written expounding his atheist views. Herndon
advised Lincoln that he had better destroy it if he had any idea of ever
running for public office. Lincoln took the advice and never published the
paper. Also, Lincoln's wife said he had no faith. He never joined a church.
He did use the word "God" frequently, while he seemed to try to use it
metaphorically I'm sure he was right in believing he needing to use it
during the Civil War. Read the letters he wrote to mothers who lost multiple
sons.
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity
been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride
and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both,
superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
-James Madison, U.S. President
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for
centuries"
-James Madison, 1803 letter objecting to the use of government land for
churches.
In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of
the people.
-James Madison, U.S. President
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in
blood for centuries"
-James Madison, 1803 letter objecting to the use of government land for
churches]
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every
noble enterprise.
-James Madison, U.S. President
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel
and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than
half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the
word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has
served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
-Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish,
appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave
mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system.
-Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the
postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.
-William Howard Taft, U.S. President
The United States of America should have a foundation free from the
influence of clergy."
-George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President
Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and
irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
-George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
-Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect
"My husband is not a Christian but is a religious man, I think." (Lincoln's
wife, Mary Todd Lincoln) -- TOWARD THE MYSTERY.
"Fascism is a religious concept."
-Benito Mussolini -- FASCISM, INSTITUTIONS AND DOCTRINES.
". . . I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the
Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jews, I am fighting for
the Lord."
-Adolf Hitler -- MEIN KAMPF.
Keith Nuttle
> On 23/11/2015 3:40 PM, James wrote:
>> Jesus was the first to be created directly by God. (Col 1:15) Adam was
>> second and Eve was third. All the rest of the creations came from God
>> and through Jesus.
>> James, John 17:17, www.jw.org
>
>
was afraid to post it under his name and used my email address to post
the following. He is a perfect example of some one who can not see
what is actually going on and an looks selected comments from a few
people with our knowing the good that is going on in the Churches in our
country.
This following is from a the precursor of the Constitution and was
written and approved by the same people who wrote the Constitution. It
is still part of the laws to the US.
Northwest Ordinance: "Religion, morality and knowledge, being necessary
to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means
of education shall forever be encouraged" approved by US CONGRESS July
13,1787 of which 41 member helped write the Constitution which was
approved September 17, 1787
James
(Col 1:15), all the rest, including Adam and Eve, were created through
Probity, fidelity and veracity!
Unknown
Animals in heaven, eh?
Reminds me of the cartoon at my Veterinarian's office posted prominently on
the wall in the waiting area. It shows a bunch of dogs and cats newly
arriving in heaven. One dog is saying to the other, "Now that we are in
heaven, do we get out testicles back?"
Something I never thought about, but apparently a theological consideration
for some.
graham
>
> Sorry, I was mistaken here. Only Jesus was a direct creation by God
> (Col 1:15), all the rest, including Adam and Eve, were created through
> Jesus.
>
--
Atheism and Religion are but two sides of the same coin;
one uses its head, while the other relies on tales.
James
>On 24/11/2015 11:08 AM, James wrote:
>
>>
>> Sorry, I was mistaken here. Only Jesus was a direct creation by God
>> (Col 1:15), all the rest, including Adam and Eve, were created through
>> Jesus.
>>
>
>Even more squit, twaddle and bunkum!