How to make Maple look like Walnut?
Jay Pique
shelving job, but I've now got an issue. The client has changed her
mind about color, and would prefer that I had made everything from
Walnut so it would match her counters. Anyone have any ideas on how
to dye and/or stain hard maple to look like walnut? I'm not remaking
everything, and the client knows this, so we're just going to do the
best we can. Thanks in advance.
JP
Andy Dingley
> Anyone have any ideas on how to dye and/or stain hard maple to look like walnut?
That sounds hard. Fortunately it's not your precise problem: your
task is to make it look like your client's idea of "walnut" and also
to match the counters they already have. Provided you aren't making
cabinets for Bruce Hoadley, that should be a lot easier.
I'd equip myself with a bunch of offcuts from your same maple boards,
a range of "walnut stains" from my local suppliers and set to making
some reasonably sized sample boards, with the full finishing treatment
on them. Then present them to the client and let them choose.
You should be able to hit close enough. Certainly close enough for
jazz, and your client,
You've not imposed any of your choices on the client, you let them
pick it. So that if next week they want it painted purple, you're
still off the hook (ie rework is billable).
J. Clarke
Well, the obvious solution is to go down to Home Depot and look in the
paint aisle where you will see cans labelled "walnut stain". If you
have already done that and not been satisfied with the results then you
should say so and why.
Upscale
<jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
>Well, the obvious solution is to go down to Home Depot and look in the
>paint aisle where you will see cans labelled "walnut stain". If you
>have already done that and not been satisfied with the results then you
>should say so and why.
An even more obvious solution is to go online with the customer
present and look at samples of maple that have been stained. Let the
customer pick their choice and proceed accordingly.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20081&cat=1,190,42942
Doug Miller
In addition to the other ideas presented, I'd like to point out that hard
maple doesn't take stains particularly readily, and thus you're probably
better off looking at dyes instead.
Robatoy
> In article <1f0083fe-efe6-4a52-8869-ec3d8f6c4...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com>, Jay Pique <JayPi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I've finished milling all the parts for what I thought was a simple
> >shelving job, but I've now got an issue. The client has changed her
> >mind about color, and would prefer that I had made everything from
> >Walnut so it would match her counters. Anyone have any ideas on how
> >to dye and/or stain hard maple to look like walnut? I'm not remaking
> >everything, and the client knows this, so we're just going to do the
> >best we can. Thanks in advance.
>
> In addition to the other ideas presented, I'd like to point out that hard
> maple doesn't take stains particularly readily, and thus you're probably
> better off looking at dyes instead.
I agree with Doug (stranger things have happened) that hard maple
doesn't take stains well. But dyes can be disastrous on maple as
blotchiness often occurs. I'm leaning towards a semi opaque or tinted
clear.
RP
I would look at the tinted clears also. Minwacks has polyshades in 2
walnut colors. I found it with three clicks. Locally available too.
Let the client look at it online if you can. She can pick from there.
RP
RP
Swingman
> I agree with Doug (stranger things have happened) that hard maple
> doesn't take stains well. But dyes can be disastrous on maple as
> blotchiness often occurs. I'm leaning towards a semi opaque or tinted
> clear.
Agreed ... another option IME, would be trying a gel stain, which seems
to overcome at least some of the tendency toward blotchiness,
particularly with dark colors like walnut.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Robatoy
I have never used a gel stain. But if the blotcherization (*s*) gets
reduced, I'm all for trying that. Any brands that come to mind?
r
Swingman
General Finishes ... the darker the better.
--
Jeffo
Yeah, maple is tricky to stain. Try a coat or two gel stain like the
Old Master's with and with out dye first and see what happens.
Definitely use a tinted clear coat (preferably sprayed) - it will both
darken and even things out.
Jeffo
whit3rd
> ... The client has changed her
> mind about color, and would prefer that I had made everything from
> Walnut so it would match her counters. Anyone have any ideas on how
> to dye and/or stain hard maple to look like walnut?
Maple is notorious for not taking stain well. Semi-opaque finishes
(the
kind that make white patches when they chip) are possible, but
not necessarily durable.
If it's solid-board shelves, can you glue on an edge of the walnut?
That
would make the most visible parts immune to chip-off.
Lew Hodgett
"Robatoy" wrote:
I have never used a gel stain. But if the blotcherization (*s*) gets
reduced, I'm all for trying that. Any brands that come to mind?
----------------------------------------
I used gel on maple and was happy with results.
Check out WoodKote, a little outfit in Oregon that I found while still
back in Cleveland back in the 70s.
Found it here in SoCal at a B Moore retail store.
Have fun
Lew
-MIKE-
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/veneer/walnut.html
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
willshak
Rip it all out and replace with Walnut, at her cost, or paint 'em white.
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
Larry Blanchard
>> In addition to the other ideas presented, I'd like to point out that
>> hard maple doesn't take stains particularly readily, and thus you're
>> probably better off looking at dyes instead.
>
> I agree with Doug (stranger things have happened) that hard maple
> doesn't take stains well. But dyes can be disastrous on maple as
> blotchiness often occurs. I'm leaning towards a semi opaque or tinted
> clear.
Put on a coat or two of shellac and then add the dye to the next coat of
shellac - problem solved. Dewaxed shellac and alcohol based dye of
course.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
BobS
"Jay Pique" <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1f0083fe-efe6-4a52...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
Jay,
As others have stated, hard maple doesn't take stain that well and dyes
or gel's would yield better results.
Let me offer an alternative, low cost solution. Black goes great with
walnut. Should all else fail, you can ebonize those maple shelves
using vinegar and a steel wool pad and some Quebracho extract from Van
Dykes. The extract is mixed with some water and painted on to the wood
and left to dry. This adds tannin to the wood. The vinegar / steel
wool mixture is made about a week in advance (it can be sped up if
needed) to make the oxide.
That is then painted on over the tannin and watch for a black that
defies description. Brian Bogg's (chair maker) wrote an article for
Popular Woodworking last year and gave the steps in his article. Not
difficult at all. I have since done 3 projects that I've used this
ebonizing method and have done it on hard and soft maple, walnut and
poplar - all with great results. A few coats of your favorite finish
to match the sheen of the cabinets and you're done.
Below is a copy of a post I made in Aug of last year about his article
that provides details if you're interested in this alternative idea:
.................................................................................................
For those that may be interested in ebonizing wood, there is an
excellent tutorial by Brian Boggs in the June issue of Popular
Woodworking on page 40.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Ebonizing_Wood
I was requested to build an urn for my brothers dear old black lab that
recently passed away. Her fur was black as coal and shined like black
chrome in the sunlight. I was saving a nice plank of curly maple for
something special and this certainly qualifies as special in my book.
Made the box and pondered how to finish it - wanted to do something
extra special. Black fur, Brain's article on ebonizing and I had my
answer. I can't give all the details of the article (copyright) but my
results from following Brian's tutorial exceeded my expectations.
Sure, the pictures in the article show a deep rich black finish that
only a pro could achieve - so I thought....
Ordered the 2lb package of quebracho extract from Van Dyke's Taxidermy
( www.vandykestaxidermy.com ) and bought a quart of a national,
name-brand white vinegar that Brian insists is the best one to use.
Brian suggest several methods for making the iron mixture and I choose
the steel wool route. Took a fresh 0000 pad and cleaned it with hot
water and soap to get rid of any oil and rinsed it. Poured the vinegar
into a quart jar and tossed in the steel wool pad.
Let that dissolve / rust for a week or so and then strain the mixture
thru a coffee filter. Brian suggests a faster, 1 day method but
nothing you want to do indoors he say's in the article.
Come the day to apply the magic potions and I made sure that the wood
was wetted and sanded (to 320 grit) several times so as to avoid
raising the grain again after applying the quebracho extract mixture (1
heaping tblspn to 1 pint warm water). Again, Brian goes into excellent
detail on how to apply and what not to do and I did exactly what he
said not to do. I contaminated the mixture and had to start over.
I coated the whole box in separate sections (top, bottom and the
assembled box) with the quebracho extract mixture (bark tea) using a
nylon sash brush and let it soak in for 30-40 minutes. You want the
chemical reaction to happen down in the wood fibers as Brian say's in
the article, and not like ink laying on the top. After a good soaking
with the bark tea, I made sure the wood was still damp but no puddles
of water spots.
Time to apply the iron mixture. Be sure you don't rub the wood surface
during any of this - you want to avoid burnishing the wood. Again I
used a nylon sash brush to apply the iron mixture. The chemical
reaction is immediate and within 30 seconds or so, you will have a
black surface - maybe not so good looking at first but give it time and
be sure you coat everything.
Let everything dry and buff it all with a clean cloth. At this point
you are probably saying "where's that deep rich black look he was
promising?". It's there, just need to apply another coat of the
quebracho extract (no iron mixture this time) and wash the surface with
it. Blot off any puddles and let it dry. Buff one last time and be
ready to be amazed !
Swipe some mineral spirits on to clean the piece and see how it will
look with your favorite finish....damn, that is really, really black. I
mean, no bluish tint at all and it is simply a gorgeous deep black. I
don't have access to any binary groups or I would post a picture but
the picture on the Popular Woodworking site of Brian's chair
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Ebonizing_Wood gives you a
pretty good idea of how it looks.
I did some further testing on some scraps. I wanted to see how far it
really penetrated the fibers or was this just a stain laying on the
surface. I can assure you that by following Brian's directions and
allowing the bark tea to soak in, it goes deep. After some hand
sanding with various grits, I was no where near bare wood. Finely took
some 80 grit and my ROS and about 5 minutes sanding on a 10" square
piece of maple scrap to get to bare wood. There were still streaks in
the curly sections that were grayish / black. So this is definitely
not a surface treatment and definitely a process worthy of your time if
you're looking to ebonize some wood.
I sent Brian a thank you note for such an excellent tutorial. It's dead
simple, extremely low cost (~$7USD for the quebracho extract ) and the
cost of a quart of vinegar and a steel wool pad (or some rusty old
nails....).
I tried the process on some small samples of pine, (not so good) but on
hardwoods like maple, walnut, oak and ash it worked nicely.
Should you be interested, Brian's site can be found here...
www.brianboggschairs.com
No affiliation, just a happy camper.
Bob S.
Swingman
Excellent resource! Many thanks for posting that. I remember a similar
article years ago but never could find it again.
(printed to bullzip pdf printer, color photos and all and going to the
shop for future reference).
Thanks again ...
dpb
Definitely the way to control/get the color match. For in conjunction
w/ walnut depending on how it's finished may want to look at some
texturing to help camouflage the plainess of grain of the maple. Of
course, the job may not be worth the effort... :)
--
Larry Jaques
<rpe...@hotmail.com> scrawled the following:
If you go with polyshades (shudder) see if it comes in a spray can.
Brushing that crap just doesn't work well.
--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin
HeyBub
> Jay Pique wrote the following:
>> I've finished milling all the parts for what I thought was a simple
>> shelving job, but I've now got an issue. The client has changed her
>> mind about color, and would prefer that I had made everything from
>> Walnut so it would match her counters. Anyone have any ideas on how
>> to dye and/or stain hard maple to look like walnut? I'm not remaking
>> everything, and the client knows this, so we're just going to do the
>> best we can. Thanks in advance.
>>
>> JP
>>
>
>
> Rip it all out and replace with Walnut, at her cost, or paint 'em
> white.
Contact paper might work...
RP
>
> - Show quoted text -
I hated to add my 2 cents about polyshades but it does work. Yeah,
overbrushing makes a helluva mess. Slam 'er on there and stop. I did
like Bob S's idea. Very cool.
RP
nailsh...@aol.com
> As others have stated, hard maple doesn't take stain that well and dyes
> or gel's would yield better results.
>
> Let me offer an alternative, low cost solution.
*SNIP* of good work
> Bob S.
Very interesting technique. Thanks for taking the time and making the
effort to post all that great information.
I like your idea, too. Since stained "anything" doesn't look like the
real McCoy, it is professional suicide to try. I won't stand and make
excuses to the client as to why the two surfaces don't match. I am on
the same page of thinking, as I don't try to match a color or finish
unless I think I can. (BTW, maple will NEVER look like walnut. At the
end of the process, it will look brown, black, or brown/black, but
never like walnut.)
So I either try to complement the piece I am trying to match, or to
contrast it completely. When the surfaces don't match correctly, they
automatically tell folks looking at your work something incorrect has
happened.
That might be a perfect job to put a very dark brick red cherry dye on
and see how they like that.
Good post.
Robert
Swingman
> I like your idea, too. Since stained "anything" doesn't look like the
> real McCoy, it is professional suicide to try. I won't stand and make
> excuses to the client as to why the two surfaces don't match. I am on
> the same page of thinking, as I don't try to match a color or finish
> unless I think I can. (BTW, maple will NEVER look like walnut. At the
> end of the process, it will look brown, black, or brown/black, but
> never like walnut.)
Every time a client answers the question about what kind of wood they
want the piece to be with a stain/color reference, like "light walnut",
or "golden oak", I ask no further questions ... that particular answer
automatically dictates the wood used.
When it comes to matching existing work, and being color blind myself,
my bid always includes my favorite paint contractor ... I'll let those
of you to whom color is important argue about it, I can't hep it! :)
Lee Michaels
"Swingman" wrote
>
> When it comes to matching existing work, and being color blind myself, my
> bid always includes my favorite paint contractor ... I'll let those of you
> to whom color is important argue about it, I can't hep it! :)
>
accuses me of being color ignorant, color insensitive and color illiterate.
Some folks are really into color. You are right. Just pass this little
discussion off to folks who are into this kind of thing.
Larry Jaques
"nailsh...@aol.com" <nailsh...@aol.com> scrawled the
following:
>On Mar 14, 6:09 pm, "BobS" <no-s...@noplace.com> wrote:
>
>> As others have stated, hard maple doesn't take stain that well and dyes
>> or gel's would yield better results.
>>
>> Let me offer an alternative, low cost solution.
>
>*SNIP* of good work
>
>> Bob S.
>
>Very interesting technique. Thanks for taking the time and making the
>effort to post all that great information.
>
>I like your idea, too. Since stained "anything" doesn't look like the
>real McCoy, it is professional suicide to try. I won't stand and make
>excuses to the client as to why the two surfaces don't match. I am on
>the same page of thinking, as I don't try to match a color or finish
>unless I think I can. (BTW, maple will NEVER look like walnut. At the
>end of the process, it will look brown, black, or brown/black, but
>never like walnut.)
And stained pieces may match well in your shop, with that particular
set of lighting, but not in the dim recesses of the client's home, and
never out in the sunlight. Stain just sucks, all the way around.
>So I either try to complement the piece I am trying to match, or to
>contrast it completely. When the surfaces don't match correctly, they
>automatically tell folks looking at your work something incorrect has
>happened.
I like the contrasting idea.
>That might be a perfect job to put a very dark brick red cherry dye on
>and see how they like that.
Most folks, whose taste is all in their mouths, would love it. ;)
Phisherman
<JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I've finished milling all the parts for what I thought was a simple
>shelving job, but I've now got an issue. The client has changed her
>mind about color, and would prefer that I had made everything from
>Walnut so it would match her counters. Anyone have any ideas on how
>to dye and/or stain hard maple to look like walnut? I'm not remaking
>everything, and the client knows this, so we're just going to do the
>best we can. Thanks in advance.
>
>JP
Maple does not stain well at all. You might consider a walnut veneer
over the maple.
nailsh...@aol.com
> I like the contrasting idea.
It has save my bacon many, many times. A couple of my fellow
finishers here in town *still* try to match colors, the way they used
to match paint colors up in the old days.
It's nuts. Even if it matches today, it may not match well tomorrow.
The new plywoods (OK... this is a working theory between me and
another finishing wonk) have something different about their
manufacture that make it change the color of the wood after it is
colored and sealed.
It's something. I don't know for sure, but I am thinking that it has
to be the glue used in manufacture. Most of us down here that make a
few cabs once in a while (like me) use the pre cut rail and stile
material which is all soft maple.
So when I dye (don't use stain much anymore as I can't spray it! )
the cabs
all look the same hue after sealing.
Later (say a year or more), I have noticed that the rails/stiles and
the carcass end panels are different colors. The clients don't
notice as it happens gradually. But if I am there for new work, I do.
So what else could be the odd man out but the glue? And with the
actual veneers being as thin as sheer panty hose (scratch that...
thigh highs with garters.... mmmmm.....) it is VERY possible that the
glues they use in China a Chile are out gassing when we buy them.
> >That might be a perfect job to put a very dark brick red cherry dye on
> >and see how they like that.
>
> Most folks, whose taste is all in their mouths, would love it. ;)
Hey.... I like it too!
Well, not all of it, but some of it anyway. It has to go with the
color scheme. A couple of years ago I did some deep red colored doors
and trims at the entrance (4" wide panel door) of a local upscale
country club. It was 1/2 Behlens Walnut and 1/2 Behlens Dark Mahogany
dye, sprayed with a 75% reduction of alcohol through a 1mm nozzle.
They were beautiful when finished.
Later, a client had me do the same color in their kitchen. They had
the greenish black marble counters in their home, and it looked
great. Very classy, and had a very stately look to it. Not my choice
for the kitchen, but it wasn't my house, either.
So for me, If I have to stain, I like the Old Masters stuff the best.
My "custom" color is 4 parts Walnut with 1 part Mahogany stirred in
it. I don't mix it completely. That way when I apply it you get
hints (I do mean just hints) of a different hue when finished. You
can't pick out the actual red, but you know it isn't just plain
brown.
Personally, I just can't stand plain brown wood unless it is it is
naturally occurring.
And I absolutely, completely, entirely HATE golden oak. I am sick of
looking at it.
Next peeve, someone around here has taken to putting black stain on
knotty pine in cabinets. ?? I have seen this in very expensive
houses, and it absolutely looks like crap.
Swing - is that a trend in new home building cabinets?
Robert
Swingman
> Next peeve, someone around here has taken to putting black stain on
> knotty pine in cabinets. ?? I have seen this in very expensive
> houses, and it absolutely looks like crap.
>
> Swing - is that a trend in new home building cabinets?
SWMBO, who actually enjoys going to open houses, was the first to
mention this to me.
Indeed it seems to be spreading ... just about a year ago, and in many
high end homes, you started seeing cabinets, and furniture, that you
used to be able to buy only in border towns ... you know, knotty pine,
rusty nail joinery, finished in used motor oil du jour.
I was thinking the mexican drug cartels must be spiking these folks
breakfast cereal with angel dust ... go figure?
Lee Michaels
"Swingman" wrote
>
> Indeed it seems to be spreading ... just about a year ago, and in many
> high end homes, you started seeing cabinets, and furniture, that you used
> to be able to buy only in border towns ... you know, knotty pine, rusty
> nail joinery, finished in used motor oil du jour.
>
requests to make "old spanish style" furniture. This was stuff made from
planks, with gate hardware for the hinges. And painted black. My stuff was
much nicer and had a good finish. But noooooo...., people wanted plain and
black. Of course, there was a lot of drug use during that time!
I remember one time, I finished a very large room divider-planter with a
built in aquarium and grow lights. My customer saw some imports with rough
hewn edges. She insisted on making all the outside edges rough hewn.
Sooooo...., I bought a drawknife and went to work. I worked for hours and
hours shaving big chunks off the edes of this very hard hemlock 2 X12's. I
stopped to sharpen the drawknife often.
I went to bed and slept hard and long. The next morning I could not get out
of bed. It took several attempts to stand up and I could not stand up
straight. It took days before I was recovered enough to stand up straight
and work again. I almost killed myself over those rough hewn edges. And I
got a bunch of requests for those too! I told them that it would double the
price. Or they could buy a drawknife and do it themselves. I am happy to say
I didn't get any takers.
Steve Turner
> Every time a client answers the question about what kind of wood they
> want the piece to be with a stain/color reference, like "light walnut",
> or "golden oak", I ask no further questions ... that particular answer
> automatically dictates the wood used.
Poplar with "light walnut" or "golden oak" stain? :-)
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Swingman
> On 3/17/2010 6:54 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> Every time a client answers the question about what kind of wood they
>> want the piece to be with a stain/color reference, like "light walnut",
>> or "golden oak", I ask no further questions ... that particular answer
>> automatically dictates the wood used.
>
> Poplar with "light walnut" or "golden oak" stain? :-)
;)
1/8" Luan, veneered on a #3 SYP substrate.
Steve Turner
> knotty pine in cabinets. ?? I have seen this in very expensive
> houses, and it absolutely looks like crap.
A few years ago my wife and I purchased an antique bookshelf (with two bottom
drawers) at the annual antiques fair in Round Top Texas. It has a _very_ nice
design and construction, but the damn thing is just COATED with that black crap
you see on so many old pieces (what IS that shit, anyway?), and I hate the look
of it; every time I walk by it I see a refinish project in my future.
So why did we buy it, you ask? The damn thing is made of SOLID Honduras
Mahogany, every last piece! The sides and back are all rail and stile with
raised panels, and even the drawer bottoms are solid raised panels. No plywood
or poplar anywhere; all solid Mahogany. If I was able to find that much
rough-cut HM at my local supplier today it would cost me at least $300,
probably more. Gave the vendor a $100 bill and drove off. Neener! :-)
--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
Steve Turner
> On 3/17/2010 4:49 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
>> On 3/17/2010 6:54 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> Every time a client answers the question about what kind of wood they
>>> want the piece to be with a stain/color reference, like "light walnut",
>>> or "golden oak", I ask no further questions ... that particular answer
>>> automatically dictates the wood used.
>>
>> Poplar with "light walnut" or "golden oak" stain? :-)
>
> ;)
>
> 1/8" Luan, veneered on a #3 SYP substrate.
Nice! :-)
--
Free bad advice available here.
Larry Jaques
>On Mar 17, 7:17 am, Larry Jaques <ljaq...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I like the contrasting idea.
>
>It has save my bacon many, many times. A couple of my fellow
>finishers here in town *still* try to match colors, the way they used
>to match paint colors up in the old days.
>
>It's nuts. Even if it matches today, it may not match well tomorrow.
And it _always_ looks different under any light other than the one it
was matched with.
>The new plywoods (OK... this is a working theory between me and
>another finishing wonk) have something different about their
>manufacture that make it change the color of the wood after it is
>colored and sealed.
Isn't it just the oxidation of both the finish and the wood
underneath?
>It's something. I don't know for sure, but I am thinking that it has
>to be the glue used in manufacture. Most of us down here that make a
>few cabs once in a while (like me) use the pre cut rail and stile
>material which is all soft maple.
>
>So when I dye (don't use stain much anymore as I can't spray it! )
Better. When the last client asked me to stain the cabinet I built
for them, I cringed. Once when they asked, the second time when they
handed me the PolyShades. The solids went after the grain, darkening
it horribly, and leaving the plain hickory face much lighter. And how
do you match oak iron-on tape to hickory with PolyShit all over it and
no extra money for color work? Oh, well. It was a huge remodeling
job, a 6'x7' kitchen in a guest cottage. <g>
>the cabs all look the same hue after sealing.
I, um, guess that's a good thing. ;)
>Later (say a year or more), I have noticed that the rails/stiles and
>the carcass end panels are different colors. The clients don't
>notice as it happens gradually. But if I am there for new work, I do.
Ayup.
>So what else could be the odd man out but the glue? And with the
>actual veneers being as thin as sheer panty hose (scratch that...
>thigh highs with garters.... mmmmm.....) it is VERY possible that the
>glues they use in China a Chile are out gassing when we buy them.
Glues attacking the finish and/or the wood? Glue fuming the wood?
>> >That might be a perfect job to put a very dark brick red cherry dye on
>> >and see how they like that.
>>
>> Most folks, whose taste is all in their mouths, would love it. ;)
>
>Hey.... I like it too!
You like ancient cherry, darker than walnut and damnear ebony?
That's not as bad as a fake cherry finish on crapwood, though.
>Well, not all of it, but some of it anyway. It has to go with the
>color scheme. A couple of years ago I did some deep red colored doors
>and trims at the entrance (4" wide panel door) of a local upscale
>country club. It was 1/2 Behlens Walnut and 1/2 Behlens Dark Mahogany
>dye, sprayed with a 75% reduction of alcohol through a 1mm nozzle.
>
>They were beautiful when finished.
OK, but things like that have to be lit well or they look black.
The darker woods in kitchens lit with 4kW of lamps look pretty cool,
but at what cost? All that light costs money to operate and it
bleaches the wood in the process.
>Later, a client had me do the same color in their kitchen. They had
>the greenish black marble counters in their home, and it looked
>great. Very classy, and had a very stately look to it. Not my choice
>for the kitchen, but it wasn't my house, either.
That does sound classy. I love this marble:
>So for me, If I have to stain, I like the Old Masters stuff the best.
>
>My "custom" color is 4 parts Walnut with 1 part Mahogany stirred in
>it. I don't mix it completely. That way when I apply it you get
>hints (I do mean just hints) of a different hue when finished. You
>can't pick out the actual red, but you know it isn't just plain
>brown.
Sounds much better than plain old RBS.
>Personally, I just can't stand plain brown wood unless it is it is
>naturally occurring.
Ditto.
>And I absolutely, completely, entirely HATE golden oak. I am sick of
>looking at it.
Yeah, it has become far to prevalent and common. Cedar fencing causes
the same visceral reaction in me. "Cedar" colored finishes just
_suck_.
>Next peeve, someone around here has taken to putting black stain on
>knotty pine in cabinets. ?? I have seen this in very expensive
>houses, and it absolutely looks like crap.
>
>Swing - is that a trend in new home building cabinets?
It sounds an awful lot like "distressing" to me. Is the same crowd
calling for it? "Ebonized Naughty Pineywood, only $18.79/sf more!"
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
nailsh...@aol.com
> >The new plywoods (OK... this is a working theory between me and
> >another finishing wonk) have something different about their
> >manufacture that make it change the color of the wood after it is
> >colored and sealed.
>
> Isn't it just the oxidation of both the finish and the wood
> underneath?
I don't think so. The level of oxidation in today's better finishes
is almost nil when inside in regular light. They are high resin,
abrasion resistant, and they even have a bit of UV resistance built in
now due to the fact that so many folks have these halogen can or track
lights that fade finishes.
There is something going on. I didn't see that kind of fading when we
used Georgia Pacific or similar plywood. Now even some of their stuff
is sold under another name, but it is Chinaply. It is difficult for
me to get the good plywood here as the local suppliers (all of 2)
don't want to sell to someone that buys two sheets for end panels.
20, yes; 2, no.
Besides, if that was the case, the rails, stiles, doors, drawer
fronts, etc., would all discolor as well. The odd piece out is the
plywood sides, and the only difference between the wood and the
plywood is the stinky glue.
The only thing I can think of is the glue outgassing. I have had
finishes compromised by outgassing before. It is no different than
coating a piece of "case hardened" wood. I made some walnut display
cases for a client, and found that out the hard way. Dry on the
outside, still too wet on the inside (my ligno lied as did my
supplier) as to the moisture. I finished the solid walnut cases, and
it took a week before the damage showed up.
> >So when I dye (don't use stain much anymore as I can't spray it! )
>
> Better. When the last client asked me to stain the cabinet I built
> for them, I cringed. Once when they asked, the second time when they
> handed me the PolyShades. The solids went after the grain, darkening
> it horribly, and leaving the plain hickory face much lighter.
Now that I don't understand. Why would you compromise your work with
an inferior product? I am no prima donna and I am in this to make
money. But I won't do anything that I know will embarrass me or my
company. Polyshades = NO. Olympic products of any sort = NO. We
agree up front what the parameters are, and that includes finishes and
protocols. I don't like any loose ends, and I won't get trapped into
using some crap off the shelf at Home Depot.
> And how
> do you match oak iron-on tape to hickory with PolyShit all over it and
> no extra money for color work?
I got nothing. I don't know. See above. I usually cheerily reply,
"well, let me work up a price and put it in writing and I will let you
know how much that will be."
> OK, but things like that have to be lit well or they look black.
> The darker woods in kitchens lit with 4kW of lamps look pretty cool,
> but at what cost?
You are obviously thinking much darker than me. Think a traditional,
medium dark mahogany.
> All that light costs money to operate and it
> bleaches the wood in the process.
Not my money, and these folks can afford it. Additionally, stains
fade quite slowly, and provide excellent UV resistance. Behlen's
Solalux is better than stain (except the solids and heavy opaques) as
it has UV built into it. That's how I started using it on doors.
As a topper, I use a UV resistant conversion lacquer that wears like
iron, and is extremely durable. My own very successful "roof test" of
the Behlen's/conversion lacquer for outside use convinced me that it
was perfect for inside as well.
>> They had greenish black marble counters in >> their home, and it looked great. Very
>> classy, and had a very stately look to it. >> Not my choice for the kitchen, but it wasn't >> my house, either.
> That does sound classy. I love this marble:
Link?
Robert
Larry Jaques
(slapping self upside the haid)
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:05:22 -0700 (PDT), the infamous
"nailsh...@aol.com" <nailsh...@aol.com> scrawled the
following:
>On Mar 17, 8:26 pm, Larry Jaques <ljaq...@diversify.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >The new plywoods (OK... this is a working theory between me and
>> >another finishing wonk) have something different about their
>> >manufacture that make it change the color of the wood after it is
>> >colored and sealed.
>>
>> Isn't it just the oxidation of both the finish and the wood
>> underneath?
>
>I don't think so. The level of oxidation in today's better finishes
>is almost nil when inside in regular light. They are high resin,
>abrasion resistant, and they even have a bit of UV resistance built in
>now due to the fact that so many folks have these halogen can or track
>lights that fade finishes.
UV inhibitors in interior finishes, huh? I must have led a sheltered
life. Nevahoiduvit.
>There is something going on. I didn't see that kind of fading when we
>used Georgia Pacific or similar plywood. Now even some of their stuff
>is sold under another name, but it is Chinaply. It is difficult for
>me to get the good plywood here as the local suppliers (all of 2)
>don't want to sell to someone that buys two sheets for end panels.
>20, yes; 2, no.
Yeah, it's all about supply, demand, and budgets.
>Besides, if that was the case, the rails, stiles, doors, drawer
>fronts, etc., would all discolor as well. The odd piece out is the
>plywood sides, and the only difference between the wood and the
>plywood is the stinky glue.
>
>The only thing I can think of is the glue outgassing.
"We here at Red Dragon Noodle, Machine Tool, and Chinaply Factory are
happy to announce integral fuming of all our wood, at no extra cost."
>I have had
>finishes compromised by outgassing before. It is no different than
>coating a piece of "case hardened" wood. I made some walnut display
>cases for a client, and found that out the hard way. Dry on the
>outside, still too wet on the inside (my ligno lied as did my
>supplier) as to the moisture. I finished the solid walnut cases, and
>it took a week before the damage showed up.
OUCH!
>> >So when I dye (don't use stain much anymore as I can't spray it! )
>>
>> Better. When the last client asked me to stain the cabinet I built
>> for them, I cringed. Once when they asked, the second time when they
>> handed me the PolyShades. The solids went after the grain, darkening
>> it horribly, and leaving the plain hickory face much lighter.
>
>Now that I don't understand. Why would you compromise your work with
>an inferior product? I am no prima donna and I am in this to make
>money. But I won't do anything that I know will embarrass me or my
>company. Polyshades = NO. Olympic products of any sort = NO. We
>agree up front what the parameters are, and that includes finishes and
>protocols. I don't like any loose ends, and I won't get trapped into
>using some crap off the shelf at Home Depot.
It was only my second contracted piece of furniture, so I plead
inexperience and probably won't ever do that again. I wasn't making
much money on the job so I didn't even truly consider the wider view
of my choice the way I do now.
>> OK, but things like that have to be lit well or they look black.
>> The darker woods in kitchens lit with 4kW of lamps look pretty cool,
>> but at what cost?
>
>You are obviously thinking much darker than me. Think a traditional,
>medium dark mahogany.
Sorry, I was thinking "aged cherry".
>> All that light costs money to operate and it
>> bleaches the wood in the process.
>
>Not my money, and these folks can afford it. Additionally, stains
>fade quite slowly, and provide excellent UV resistance. Behlen's
>Solalux is better than stain (except the solids and heavy opaques) as
>it has UV built into it. That's how I started using it on doors.
Interesting. I'll have to look into that.
>As a topper, I use a UV resistant conversion lacquer that wears like
>iron, and is extremely durable. My own very successful "roof test" of
>the Behlen's/conversion lacquer for outside use convinced me that it
>was perfect for inside as well.
I haven't used lacquer yet, either, so it's another thing I can look
forward to trying.
>>> They had greenish black marble counters in >> their home, and it looked great. Very
>>> classy, and had a very stately look to it. >> Not my choice for the kitchen, but it wasn't >> my house, either.
>
>> That does sound classy. I love this marble:
>
>Link?
A phone call distracted me and I never got refocused.
Here's my fave green marble/granite, complete with golds and blacks:
Verde Ubatuba, the same that Mark used on his topless end tables.
http://www.verdeubatuba.com/ Some of this is horrid, but the type
with the deep blacks, bright golds, and vivid greens is truly
spectacular, as Mark found out.
Other nice ones:
http://www.graniteland.com/stone/verde-mare
http://www.graniteland.com/stone/vermont-verde-antique
http://www.graniteland.com/stone/verde-tikal
http://www.graniteland.com/stone/iran-g-164
http://www.graniteland.com/stone/iran-g-158